Share & Strap-On & Tell with Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe

Summary

Pablo Torre Finds Out – "Share & Strap-On & Tell" with Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out
Host: Pablo Torre (The Athletic)
Guests: Sue Bird, Megan Rapinoe
Date: October 16, 2025

Episode Overview

This vibrant episode dives beyond the surface of sports celebrity into the world of accolades, retirements, and the complex business and cultural realities of women’s sports, with two of the most decorated and outspoken athletes in America—Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe. It’s a mix of celebration, tongue-in-cheek humor, behind-the-scenes storytelling, and sharp, passionate insight into ongoing labor negotiations and women’s sports business. The episode features personal stories, banter, and a candid look at the high-profile “Stud Buds” viral moment.

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Main Themes & Segments

1. Catching Up: Life After Sports (02:07–04:54)

• Podcast Life & Podcaster Identity: Pablo, Sue, and Megan joke about their retirement media careers, Sue’s cardigans, and the reluctance to be called 'media people'.
• Quote:
  “I actually refuse to be called media. I don't like it.” – Sue Bird (02:32)
• Retirement schedules: The challenge and oddity of a retirement year spent traveling for statue unveilings, street namings, and celebrations in various cities.

2. A Year of Honoring Sue Bird (04:54–08:59)

• Statues, Streets, and Ceremonies
  • Seattle’s first WNBA player statue, “Sue Bird Court,” and celebratory parties curated by Megan.
  • The emotional intensity and odd mix of “wedding and funeral” vibes at retirement ceremonies.
• Quote:
  “A lot of these, like, retirement type moments do feel like it's like a wedding and a funeral in one.” – Sue Bird (07:57)
• Private moments with fans, funny behind-the-scenes logistics (custom cocktail names, DJ sets), and the challenge of lengthy speeches.

3. The Statues Saga: Butter Sue to Bronze Sue (10:01–16:02)

• Statue Mishaps and Triumphs
  • Megan’s handmade “Butter Sue” bust revealed live at a show (hilarious failure, but fan keeps it).
  • Discussion of bad statues in sports history ("Cristiano Ronaldo... Brandy Chastain") and rare success of Sue's own in “Uncanny” likeness.
  • Behind-the-scenes process: Input given to the artists, and practical lessons about bronze as a sculpting material.
• Quote:
  “I think your statue and the Naismith hall of Fame—those two... you're so proud and this is incredible. There's no way to like, feel really, truly, like, the magnitude of what that means.” – Megan Rapinoe (17:10)
• Memorable moment:
  Megan’s joking critique of "Butter Sue" and discussion of fans wanting to keep it (11:48).

4. Living in the Limelight: The Press & Photography (15:12–16:56)

• Megan picking up real film photography, joining the pro athlete-to-sports-photographer pipeline (Marshawn Lynch, Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey Jr. legends referenced).
• Importance of creativity after retirement, and athletes’ need for expressive outlets.
• Quote:
  “Sports people are, like, inherently creative in some kind of way... When I stopped playing, I found that there was a big absence in creativity and being able to just, like, do stuff and have fun and whatever.” – Megan Rapinoe (16:30)

5. The Emotional Toll of Public Speeches & Legacy (17:44–23:35)

• Overwhelm and gratitude in repeatedly being honored.
• Speechwriting routines, comedic timing, and revisiting meaningful career and personal moments.
• Sue on her retirement speech marathon (“over an hour”), and learning to craft more focused messages over time.
• Quote:
  “I held that whole arena hostage, but... it wasn't just a career. It was a life.” – Sue Bird (19:39)
• Behind-the-scenes anecdote: The Olympics as the site of Dwyane Wade, LeBron, and Chris Bosh clandestinely plotting the Miami Heat "Big 3."

6. Hall of Fame Timelines and Narratives (24:04–25:22)

• Pablo addresses misinformation about Megan’s Hall of Fame eligibility (“Reuters: Fact Check: Megan Rapinoe NOT disqualified…”).
• Quote:
  “Congratulations on not being disqualified and remaining eligible.” – Pablo Torre (25:02)
• Next up for Megan: Hall of Fame eligibility in 2027, location (Frisco, Texas), and a tongue-in-cheek take on the journey.

7. The State of Labor & Money in Women’s Sports (29:07–54:02)

a. The Nafisa Collier vs. Kathy Engelbert Showdown (29:32–36:14)

• Context: Collier’s viral exit interview criticizing WNBA commissioner Engelbert on pay and respect.
• Soundbites of direct quotes from Collier about revenue, salaries, and league leadership.
• Megan and Sue’s nuanced, insider breakdown of the labor and trust issues between players and the league.
• Quote:
  “With Kathy, if I have to, like, point to a failure, it's clearly that the trust in the relationship with the players has really broken down… she could have done a better job at maybe having more open ears or hearing them more.” – Megan Rapinoe (35:02)

b. The Evolution of Advocacy & Activism in the WNBA (39:30–44:10)

• Sue explains how WNBA players learned that “the only way people hear us is if we scream about it and go public.”
• Recap of 2020 bubble controversies, using media and social platforms to expose inequity (laundry room, weight room disparities).
• Megan notes how social media power has escalated players’ voices.
• Quote:
  “One of the stories I just told this one recently, we get to the bubble... We brought it to the attention of the WNBA... nothing got done. And then it took a player... to show pictures of this laundry room to talk about it.” – Sue Bird (41:04)

c. Pay, Media Deals, and CBA Negotiations (44:10–54:02)

• Reality check on rookie salaries (Caitlin Clark making $70K in Year 1) and the historic increase in the new media deal ($25M/year to $200M/year for the WNBA).
• Sue predicts salary jumps tied to rev-share in new CBA.
• The strategic timing of contracts: nearly all veteran contracts aligning to expire after this season to maximize CBA leverage.
• Quote:
  “We went from 20 to 30 million a year to 200 a year... the players are gonna get something of it already. Boom. You're gonna see salaries go up.” – Sue Bird (45:42)
• Negotiation wisdom:
  “Always leave the door open. Negotiate in good faith, go really hard at it. Work stoppages are catastrophic... Continue to show up, ask for the things that you want. Hear the other side too... That's a successful negotiation when it hurts a little bit on both sides.” – Megan Rapinoe (49:04)
• The wild prospect of an entire league hitting free agency at once:
  “...Caitlyn's at the 70, whatever thousand dollars mark, let's say the new minimum of the next CBA is 250, she'll jump to that. But every single other player's deal ran out or is running out this year. They will all be free agents plus, plus two expansion drafts.” – Sue Bird (53:11)

8. "Stud Buds" and the Viral Strapping Conversation (56:16–60:31)

• The Viral Moment:
  Pablo, Sue, and Megan recount the beloved “Stud Buds” Twitch stream featuring players Natisha Hiedeman and Courtney Williams, its community impact, and the resulting legendary “strap-on” debate.
• Sue and Megan give a primer on “strapping” for the unfamiliar, complete with double entendre and laughter.
• Pablo reflects on the evolution of candid, queer conversations in mainstream sports media spaces.
• Quote:
  “On a previous stream, Courtney purported that she had never, ever been strapped before. And Natisha was like, never? Like, really?... That's the photo that Adam [Silver] snapped.” – Megan Rapinoe (58:12) “So Adam Silver does or doesn't know what strapping is?” – Pablo Torre (60:20) “He does now.” – Megan Rapinoe (60:23)

9. Wrapping Up & Meta Reflection (61:03–61:29)

• The duo pokes fun at their podcasting habits, especially Megan’s tendency to speak directly to the camera.
• Quote:
  “You're not going to love this, but this is what it's like doing a podcast with her. You just talk, right? To the camera. You never talk to me.” – Sue Bird (60:44)

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Key Quotes & Notable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Sue on Being Honored:
  “A lot of these, like, retirement type moments do feel like it's like a wedding and a funeral in one.” (07:57)
• Megan on Creativity Post-Retirement:
  “Sports people are like, inherently creative... When I stopped playing, I found that there was a big absence in creativity and being able to just, like, do stuff and have fun and whatever.” (16:30)
• Megan on Commissioner Kathy Engelbert:
  “If I have to, like, point to a failure, it's clearly that the trust in the relationship with the players has really broken down… she could have done a better job at maybe having more open ears or hearing them more.” (35:02)
• Sue on Activism in the WNBA:
  “...We brought it to the attention of the WNBA... nothing got done. And then it took a player... to show pictures of this laundry room to talk about it.” (41:04)
• Megan on Player-Owner Negotiations:
  “Always leave the door open. Negotiate in good faith, go really hard at it. Work stoppages are catastrophic...” (49:04)
• The “Strap-On” Moment:
  “On a previous stream, Courtney purported that she had never, ever been strapped before... That's the photo that Adam [Silver] snapped.” (58:12)

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Takeaways for New Listeners

• Humor and Warmth: Sue and Megan’s dynamic with Pablo is playful and irreverent; listeners get a strong sense of their personalities and close relationship.
• Insider Perspective: Unique, jargon-filled insights that only true insiders can provide, especially around labor organizing, league politics, and personal transitioning from player to post-career.
• Cultural Fluency: The episode is a celebration of queer culture in women’s sports, advocacy for pay equity, and the evolving relationship between athletes and the leagues they built.
• Notable Segments to Revisit:
  • Sue Bird’s statue saga and “Butter Sue” (10:01–11:55)
  • Hall of Fame speech and Miami Heat “Big 3” anecdote (22:16–23:35)
  • Deep-dive on new WNBA media deal and CBA free agency (44:50–54:02)
  • The viral “Stud Buds”/strap-on conversation (56:57–60:31)

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This episode is a must-listen for its rare blend of candor, cultural resonance, and timely labor analysis, all handled with humor and heart by three of sports’ most thoughtful communicators.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[Sue Bird]

The only way people hear us is if we scream about it right after this ad.

[Verizon Ad Voice]

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[Pablo Torre]

You look the same.

[Verizon Ad Voice]

But with this camera, everything looks better. Especially me.

[Megan Rapinoe]

You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.

[Sue Bird]

Selvie. Check please.

[Verizon Ad Legal Voice]

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[Pablo Torre]

Did I talk too much? Can I just let it go?

[Sue Bird]

Thank you so much.

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

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[Tony and Ryan]

G', day America. It's Tony and Ryan from the Tony and Ryan Podcast from Down Under.

[Pablo Torre]

Today we want to talk to you.

[Sue Bird]

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[Tony and Ryan]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Tony and Ryan]

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[Sue Bird]

Visit the nearest boost mobile or boostmobile.com.

[Tony and Ryan]

After 30 gigabytes, speeds may slow. $25 per month with active Boost Unlimited plan. Cancel within 30 days for a refund of service fees, activation and phone payments. Not ref.

[Megan Rapinoe]

How have you been, Pablo?

[Pablo Torre]

I'm good. Just been in the minds, in the podcast minds. Just shoveling, shoveling content, giving the people what they want.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I've been living for the Balmer Pods.

[Pablo Torre]

It's, it's living. It's, it's. It's endless.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I've been living for them. There's so many.

[Pablo Torre]

Yesterday, the person who was sitting in the chair that you're sitting in right now, Megan, yesterday was Mark Cuban who came in.

[Sue Bird]

Oh really?

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

He came in.

[Sue Bird]

He's back.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I've been living for that.

[Sue Bird]

What is he technically now?

[Pablo Torre]

He's a minority owner of the Mavericks.

[Sue Bird]

Okay. Minority owner. And so he can speak on this freely.

[Pablo Torre]

I asked him, I was like, what do you think Adam thinks? What do you think Steve thinks? He's like, I don't think the league loves what I'm doing. But, but he is. He's the, he's the guy talking. Yeah, he's the only guy talking.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I feel like the league should be like, thank you, Pablo, for unearthing. Unearthing this investigation for us.

[Pablo Torre]

I didn't bring you guys in here to talk about me, though.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Well, that's what I came in here for.

[Sue Bird]

I know. I'm like, do you want to do your own little.

[Megan Rapinoe]

It's like, if I don't have papers.

[Pablo Torre]

To flip over, I, I, I regret not having the manila folder in front.

[Sue Bird]

Of you read that quote.

[Pablo Torre]

Sue was the first person to walk into the studio with the cardigan.

[Sue Bird]

The cardigan guys.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Oh, my gosh. When we were talking about yesterday, I was like, yes, and you gotta get the cardigan.

[Sue Bird]

And I was like, oh, my God. I have to.

[Megan Rapinoe]

This is awesome.

[Sue Bird]

We were dressed.

[Pablo Torre]

We are now.

[Sue Bird]

We're here. Although. Power Rangers. You took your little bird off.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, you have. I didn't have a pin. That was also my last name.

[Megan Rapinoe]

And so.

[Pablo Torre]

So that's clearly what. Why you kept it. You have a beautiful. It's like a gull. A seabird.

[Sue Bird]

I feel like we're Mr. Rogers. We're giving Mr. Rogers.

[Pablo Torre]

It's funny. In retirement, you have become a podcaster in ways that are even beyond my prediction.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, beyond your prediction.

[Pablo Torre]

You are dressing like me. A.

[Megan Rapinoe]

It's getting weird.

[Pablo Torre]

You. Have you started another show?

[Sue Bird]

Emulate the best.

[Pablo Torre]

I did Bird's Eye View again. The pin doesn't seem accidental.

[Sue Bird]

Nobody's watching.

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

We're always watching.

[Pablo Torre]

In addition to a touch more, which, you know, got, you know, I love.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, we're straight up podcasters now.

[Pablo Torre]

You just media people. Just, just.

[Sue Bird]

I actually refuse to be called media. I don't like it.

[Pablo Torre]

What would you want to be called?

[Sue Bird]

I don't know, like a player podcaster who's not a player anymore.

[Pablo Torre]

You guys are talking to microphones, though. And you guys are living a year that has made me laugh because every time I'm like, I wonder if sue and Megan are in town, I'm like, oh, no, there's another street being named.

[Megan Rapinoe]

After one of them.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, you.

[Pablo Torre]

How do you describe. I want Megan to describe the year that sue has had because it's. I sat down to be like, it's a joke. What did I miss? And I'm like, this is absurd.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Okay, I'm going to start with the worst part, which has just been, like, multiple, with the exception of Seattle, where you got your statue, which looks amazing. And that was, you know, in our hometown.

[Pablo Torre]

So we'll get to.

[Megan Rapinoe]

We love Seattle. Got to be there, do some really fun things. No shade to any of these other cities, but we're spending, like, long weekends in these cities multiple times in the summer.

[Pablo Torre]

What are we talking? What's the itinerary?

[Megan Rapinoe]

We're going to Knoxville. Again, no shade. It's like, it's. We made the best of it. It's cute. Like, they had a great bakery there. They had some good food.

[Pablo Torre]

College town.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Great college town. The weather was actually pretty good. Then we went to Uncasville, Connecticut.

[Pablo Torre]

Absolutely. Shout out to Mohegan Sun.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Shout out to Mohegan Sun.

[Sue Bird]

You now know that, man.

[Pablo Torre]

I went to a bachelor party in Mohegan Sun.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Wow.

[Pablo Torre]

Shout out to the. Shout out allegedly to the Gold Club.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Within walking distance. And then we were in Springfield, Mass.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So it's just not direct flights.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Flights. We're driving.

[Sue Bird]

Driving.

[Megan Rapinoe]

We're driving. So it's not the.

[Sue Bird]

But no, not direct flights to Knoxville either.

[Megan Rapinoe]

It was definitely not from Seattle. The long weekends I was hoping for during the summer, but with that said, it's just, like, incredible. It's always, like, so special. Like, it was really, you know, we got to see your family a lot, and just having other people come in and people came to the statue and friends, and you've had an iconic career that deserves to be celebrated. And I personally enjoy being party planner. I feel like I love it so much. Unlike doing the part in Seattle. We rented out Rob Roy, which is one of Sue's favorite cocktail bars. Cute little space. It's kind of like loungy vibey.

[Sue Bird]

Like, we had a DJ in there.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah, we had a DJ family. What were some of the names in there?

[Sue Bird]

What were some of the names of the cocktails?

[Megan Rapinoe]

The Aunt Sue. I think that was like a martini. We had the sugroni. We had the puppeteer. Not to be confused with puppet eater.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. So. Oh, my God.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm sorry.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, she had, like, a special menu made.

[Pablo Torre]

It was.

[Sue Bird]

It was adorable with all of these.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Puppeteer. What is puppeteer?

[Megan Rapinoe]

The puppeteer was maybe an old fashioned. It was like, you know, you're like the.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, like a. Like a maestro kind of vibe. Someone point guard reference. Yes. Excuse me, can I have the point?

[Fantasy Fangirls Podcast Hosts]

Puppet eater.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Or there Was a point goat.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. Point goat. Yeah.

[Megan Rapinoe]

So it was fun. I. I have a lot of fun with it. I'm like, if we're doing it, like we're not going to Applebee's for dinner, like, I'm going to go hard at it.

[Pablo Torre]

You have. In my mind, it's just like you're. You're producing like a series of wedding receptions.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

Over and over again.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And there is, of course, like, a standard process for how this goes. Sue has to be regal and respectful and funny and sincere.

[Sue Bird]

Well, first of all, you said wedding reception. A lot of these, like, retirement type moments do feel like it's like a wedding and a funeral in one.

[Pablo Torre]

You gotta say hi to everybody.

[Sue Bird]

You gotta say hi to everybody. But they're saying all these nice things about you.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Sue Bird]

The way I, you know, that usually happens at a funeral. And that's kind of the wonderful slash hard part, is to just constantly hear all these really nice things being said about you. One event after another after another.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I love that.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, it's hard. It's hard. I don't, like, bask in it, but.

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

The best part about the statue reveal day was it was a gorgeous day in the. It was outdoors, obviously, and I got to wear sunglasses. My shades literally were like, shading me from some of the. The eyeballs.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Everybody with us now. 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

[Countdown Voice]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Not because you were tearing up, just because you were like, thank God I don't need to emote with my eyes so deliberately with the knowledge that I'm being watched.

[Sue Bird]

It's a lot of attention. Yes, it's a lot of attention, but it's also, like I said, it's also like, who am I to complain? It's amazing. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, Sub Bird Court. Yeah, that's a. That's. Now you can.

[Sue Bird]

The people who live on that have to doordash their food to Sue Bird Court.

[Pablo Torre]

That's pretty great.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I know.

[Pablo Torre]

It's so cute.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Tag you on that. That's cute.

[Pablo Torre]

There's been mugging.

[Sue Bird]

It's. The street itself is like this long.

[Megan Rapinoe]

It's.

[Sue Bird]

It's cute. But, yeah, me and. Me and Lenny Wilkins way, which is great. It's a corner.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

I was like, a pleasure, you know, which is. Again, this is. This is Seattle sports royalty. This statue, though, just to be very clear about this, this is the first WNBA player to get a statue ever. This is a huge deal from a just like, history of sports statues perspective, which, you know, I study meticulously on this show.

[Sue Bird]

Yes, we're very aware. Do you know that? Megan, did you see what. Wait, we haven't even gotten to Butter Sue. Did you see this?

[Pablo Torre]

No.

[Sue Bird]

You don't know about Butter Sue?

[Megan Rapinoe]

No, this is butter. This. This is for you. Yeah, we're gonna put it down here. Okay.

[Sue Bird]

The weekend of the statue reveal, we did a touch more live.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

So we did a live show. I think it was the night before the statue, right?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

So it was the night before the statue. So Megan's present to me live on stage was a Butter Sue.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, yes.

[Megan Rapinoe]

This was the idea. Our good friends Natalie and Larissa hooked this up for me. I said, I need an AI mock up of Butter sue so I can work off of it. That obviously.

[Sue Bird]

What's with the bun?

[Megan Rapinoe]

Listen, you try to do curls in the butter when it's melting, when I only have a short amount of time while you're gone this morning, that.

[Sue Bird]

Wait, you did this?

[Megan Rapinoe]

I did.

[Sue Bird]

It was a Butter Sue. A bust.

[Megan Rapinoe]

It was a butter sumo.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, it was. And Megan did it. Megan made it.

[Pablo Torre]

You didn't hire the couple in the Midwest that were in Pennsylvania. Excuse me. That we hired here. Pablo Torre finds out.

[Sue Bird]

No, but her pop, she didn't. And honestly, it was so bad. I mean, I looked like a sumo wrestler. I don't even know what was that. My nose was like this. It was. The sumo wrestler was actually the hair she tried to get the pony. It looked more like a sumo bun.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Didn't have a walk in freezer to do my craft. I was like under such a time crunch and then it was like to get any sort of detailing on the true.

[Sue Bird]

I was out of the house for like two hours and that was the only.

[Megan Rapinoe]

But also, like the butter melts.

[Pablo Torre]

Kind of like what truly prehistoric tribes depicted. It's almost impressionistic.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Oh, my God.

[Sue Bird]

Anyway, a fan wanted it after, so somebody has that. Yeah, somebody has. Somebody who knows what they did to butter soup.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Maybe they're still just scraping off it.

[Sue Bird]

I. I followed you with the cardigan. I had to follow you.

[Pablo Torre]

It's just an incredible. An incredible. I mean, I can only take it as a compliment.

[Sue Bird]

Your fingerprints are all over a touch more.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Absolutely.

[Pablo Torre]

Of course.

[Sue Bird]

Thank God. The real statue looked a lot better.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, so. So I gotta say, like, part of the whole premise of, like, Butter Pablo and all of that and is that the history of sports statues has been horrific. There have been some bad ones.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Terrible.

[Pablo Torre]

Whether it's Cristiano Ronaldo, whether it's Dwayne Wade. Recently, you Go down the list. You know, Brandy Chastain had a. If I may say so, just like, not a great. Not a great statue. Didn't really look like her. The ultimate compliment to Rainy Chastain is that her statue did not look like a her bust. This one, that's like a top.

[Megan Rapinoe]

It's uncanny.

[Sue Bird]

I think it might be number one.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I think it is.

[Sue Bird]

It's legit. Yeah. Listen, I just told you how much I don't like the attention, all that, but that statue, I'm like, that's number one.

[Megan Rapinoe]

It doesn't even look like you. It like.

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

It is.

[Sue Bird]

I walked in, like, your hands when I saw it.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Your nose from underneath especially, because you've broken it so many times. And, like, just like your body.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Oh, totally. It's like off the side.

[Sue Bird]

When I walked in, it was like, the clay version is all I got to see. But it was. It was. It was in. It was the size, but it was just the clay version.

[Pablo Torre]

So you see you giving. I mean, it's you doing a layup. Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

So I walk in, I go underneath it. I was blown away by the accuracy. I couldn't believe it.

[Pablo Torre]

I was ready to just clown on you.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And I was like. I was just. I. I respect to the. To the artist, to the sculptor.

[Megan Rapinoe]

You did a lot. You, like, gave a lot of yourself to it, though. A lot of feedback. A lot. You were like. You went on the face.

[Sue Bird]

The face. So the face is. This is what I feel like.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I love you were like, in the process, though. I will say that I think everybody is.

[Sue Bird]

I don't think that was unique to me.

[Pablo Torre]

I think those other athletes, they were not in it enough.

[Sue Bird]

So this. This is what. This is my takeaway from it. Okay. You only see it as it's clay version. I saw like a 12 foot version of it. And then you go back. I went to the studio twice. You go back, you see it in full form, but it's still clay. I just think bronze is not a very forgiving material on the face. So anytime you have a facial expression.

[Pablo Torre]

For sure.

[Sue Bird]

Anytime you have a facial expression or you see a lot of someone's teeth, I think you're in trouble. I think you're asking for trouble. If it's like a lot of, you know, like, creases, wrinkles, like, so Dwayne Wade example, he's, like, very, like, raw. He's got that, like, this is my house look. And so it's just bronze is not gonna be forgiving. And so my face, you know, When I'm shooting layoffs, apparently I don't emote. I've got nothing going on there. So it made for, you know, it looks smooth.

[Megan Rapinoe]

That was smart, though.

[Sue Bird]

I didn't do it on purpose. But now this is my advice.

[Pablo Torre]

Look at the guns, though.

[Sue Bird]

Well, they got that right, didn't they?

[Pablo Torre]

Just. Just truly.

[Megan Rapinoe]

So your shoulders look.

[Sue Bird]

That is how my shoulders look. Those deltoids no longer. But the ponytail. Yeah, the ponytails. That's the best part. They got the huarachi. 2k fours. Like, that's the. My favorite shoe I wore in Seattle.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Dialed.

[Sue Bird]

Wow.

[Megan Rapinoe]

They.

[Pablo Torre]

They.

[Sue Bird]

I mean, I've no notes.

[Pablo Torre]

Just. Again, no notes. Impressive. By the way, my favorite thing while just revisit. All of this is just like Megan with the camera.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah, I'm trying to learn, guys.

[Sue Bird]

Paparaz.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I'm trying to learn. It's honestly, the camera does 95% of the work. It's a great camera, but I am loving it. It's fun.

[Sue Bird]

It's a really good.

[Megan Rapinoe]

It gives you something to do. And I'm like. That's what I'm saying. I'm just looking at all these events, especially these. I'm just like, obviously I'm your plus one and I'm there. So I'm like, I'm going to make.

[Sue Bird]

Myself and all the photographers, they like, see and respect. It's a real camera. This is not digital. This is a film camera. She has to get the exposure right. Obviously you have to focus it. Yeah. You know you're going to get a try. This is like a real deal camera. All the photographers, they're always like, oh, is that a Leica?

[Megan Rapinoe]

Like, oh, yeah. Pretty good over there.

[Sue Bird]

It's like instant respect.

[Pablo Torre]

I like Megan just wearing like, you know, the photographer's like, vest.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Oh, I'm gonna get in there.

[Sue Bird]

We need to get you a neon joint.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah, I'm gonna get in there. I need to. I need to properly shoot a game.

[Pablo Torre]

But there's a thing in sports where a lot of like hall of fame retired athletes. We've seen Marshawn lynch do it.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey Jr. Ken Gribby Jr. Seattle thing.

[Pablo Torre]

Why do you think pro athletes, as a pro athlete, why do you think photography is this thing that, like, I don't know, it seems like you people are into.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I think sports people too. I think sports people, athletes, sportsters.

[Pablo Torre]

You guys really are becoming podcasts.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah, I know.

[Pablo Torre]

What do you call it?

[Megan Rapinoe]

Sports people are like, inherently creative in some kind of way. And when I stopped playing, I Found that there was a big absence in, like, creativity and being able to just, like, do stuff and have fun and whatever. So.

[Pablo Torre]

But. But what's funny is, like, hall of Fame Springfield in the big hall of Immortals. And Megan's, like, right there with the camera.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

It's like.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Seat right next to sue. Just, like, real close up.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

You looked calm. You looked. Did it feel. What's. Again, I want your point of view. Megan, on. Just, like, did that feel a moment apart from the previous things? Because it was the thing. It's the hall of Fame.

[Megan Rapinoe]

You did feel calm. I think your statue and the. The Naismith hall of Fame. Know those two.

[Sue Bird]

I know, but I had done the women's basketball.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah, you'd already done women's basketball. You'd already done all the retirement stuff. Like, you. You're kind of seasoned in it. I feel like you were like, this is amazing. And, like, you're so proud and this is incredible. There's no way to like, feel really, truly, like, the magnitude of what that means. It's like, you can't really, like, take all that in. That's going to be like a lifetime sort of thing that you just have. But you were, like, really relaxed. I think the hardest part was, like, writing all these speeches in such a short.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to know about amount of time and by the way, unsurprising to hear and learn in context now that, like, you've had a whole. By that point, you've just been doing stuff along these lines.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So you're just, like, ready for this moment.

[Sue Bird]

It was like 10,000 hours.

[Pablo Torre]

Absolutely.

[Sue Bird]

I was at my 10,000 hour moment. That's what you got at the Naismith hall of Fame, for sure. This moment is truly overwhelming. There are hundreds of people in here I could thank, and those are probably just my surgeons. It's been so wonderful, though, seeing so many familiar faces in terms of just.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, how to write. I remember talking to Ezra, our friend Ezra being like, can we write, Suze? Can we just. Can we.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Can we contribute?

[Pablo Torre]

Can we.

[Sue Bird]

I think my jersey's getting retired at UConn, so if I need a speech, it's. It's on you, too. I'm calling you guys.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Honestly, just bring them up.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Like, we're here on behalf of Suber.

[Pablo Torre]

It's a manila folder. Put down the podium.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Ezra, flip that paper over. Oh, man.

[Sue Bird]

But, yeah, no, I think there is something to having to do a bunch of speeches in a short period of time on the same topic.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sue Bird]

And trying to figure out, so in this really wonderful way. Well, man, if we take it back, this one still is tough. If we take it back to my retirement speech. Okay, this is what happened in my retirement speech. I don't know if you've ever looked this up. It was over an hour. I literally talked over an hour.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, that's like a congressional filibuster.

[Megan Rapinoe]

She was filibustering.

[Sue Bird]

I really felt. Little did I know I was gonna give, like, three more speeches in the next two years. I felt like it was my last chance to talk to the city of Seattle, and I got it all out there. Seattle wasn't always home, but that's exactly what it became. And that's in large part to all of you. And I may have given you. The minute I walked off, the first thing I said was like, was that too long?

[Megan Rapinoe]

I said, no, baby, but totally.

[Sue Bird]

Everyone was like, no, no, no.

[Pablo Torre]

Three hour pause. That's totally fine.

[Sue Bird]

I held that whole arena hostage, but I really felt I was like, for me, it wasn't just a career. It was a life that I. That I lived there. And I was. I needed to thank everyone. And I think the best thing, you know, other than being completely embarrassed about that, the best thing that happened was I really thanked everybody. So now when you look or you fast forward or I fast forward to these other speeches, I didn't feel that pressure. I got to say what I wanted to say, and especially since Naismith was last. So I did Women's Basketball hall of Fame, I did the statue, and now I could really just talk about more of a theme. And the theme of my speech was belonging and how sports gave me, like, basketball specifically gave me a belonging. My mom, Nancy, didn't care whether I won or lost. She just gave me the freedom and space to find my belonging. My dad, Herschel, loves the game and always challenged me to be my best, which eventually backfired when I started beating him one on one.

[Pablo Torre]

Had you heard her rehearse it a bunch by that point?

[Megan Rapinoe]

I mean, probably 9,000 times. She is an outward processor.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, yeah. But she also.

[Megan Rapinoe]

External processor.

[Sue Bird]

You, like, stopped listening.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

Like, you were there in body, but not, I don't think, her actual ears.

[Megan Rapinoe]

No, I was. I was. Because I'd be like, tighten that up or tighten up one more time. Also, it got to the point where you're like, oh, you don't even have to listen. I'm just gonna say it loud. And I'm like, I'm not. Yeah, I'm not.

[Sue Bird]

Because there were A couple things timing wise, I wanted to nail. Yeah, There was like some comedic timing I wanted to nail, which I do.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Like that I. I like workshopping a joke.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah. You had a joke about LeBron and D. Wade and Chris Bosh.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. That's interest story, by the way, at.

[Pablo Torre]

The 2000 Olympics in Beijing.

[Sue Bird]

It was a joke, but it's also true. I remember that Olympics well. It was a great Olympics. Both teams hanging out, winning gold. I mean, it was kind of weird how LeBron, Chris and Dwayne kept yapping about three year deals with a player option and where do you want to take your talents? Where do you want to take your talents? I don't know. I tuned it out. I'm sure Mickey could probably tell you guys about that later. But Beijing was fun. The true story is like, they have a players lounge. We all hang out. Only the players can go in there. So it's the men's and women's teams. We're talking card games, hanging out, the whole nine. This one particular night, I was talking to D. Wade about who knows what, and he kind of said something like, yeah, Carmelo, he like signed the. The extension. He's locked in for like, however many years. He signed the extension. He's like, we all opted out. So because we opted out, we're all gonna be free agents at the same time. And I was like, oh, interesting. Honestly, he was just talking. He didn't actually make reference to them joining, you know, to taking their talents.

[Pablo Torre]

But it's the we that he's referring to.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, it was him, Chris and LeBron for sure. So he was just like, telling me about NBA free agency. And it wasn't until, what, two years later, a year or two later, when they all go. And I was like, like, that's what he was referring to. I didn't know in the moment that they were plotting. But then you rewind, you look back on that conversation. I was like, oh, my God. I saw like the genesis of the super team, the big three.

[Pablo Torre]

You've revealed yourself to truly not be a journalist. Sue, you just heard that and you're like.

[Megan Rapinoe]

And two years later. Oh, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm like, that makes sense. Yeah.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Like, yeah, we can all be free.

[Sue Bird]

Age at the same time.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I was like, cool, whatever.

[Pablo Torre]

That seems fun for you.

[Sue Bird]

And then Melo, I talked to Melo about it. He was like, I didn't think we were gonna lock out. I didn't think there was gonna be. I don't know what the. What the lockout, like, how that Played into it. But that was his thinking on it.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, fun. He wanted the. He wanted to opt in the guarantees.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Something like that. Not one, not two, by the way. I toyed with that joke. So you wanna hear another true story about my hall of fame speech? The original joke, as written on the teleprompter, even when I got up there was. Yeah. And then I overheard them being like, not one, not two, not three. That was gonna be the joke. But mickey arison, he did his speech before me.

[Pablo Torre]

Owner of the heat.

[Sue Bird]

Owner of the heat. And he made that joke.

[Pablo Torre]

But then in 2010, with Dwayne LeBron and chris bosh, we knew we could win. Not one, not two. I guess it was just two.

[Sue Bird]

So in real time, I look at Megan, I'm like, I think I have to change the joke. I can't make the same joke. What am I gonna do? So the next, like, 30 minutes in my head was like, toying with what to do. And then. And then I went with take my.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Talents, which is what I wanted originally.

[Sue Bird]

That is what you wanted originally.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to observe one thing before seizing on a segue that you've offered me there, perhaps inadvertently, which is I was like, what is Megan's timeline on hall of fame stuff gonna be? And I was just like, googling. And the first article I found was an article from Reuters. It was June 21, 2024. Fact check Colon, Megan Rapinoe not disqualified from U. S. Soccer hall of fame for what? What? Someone there had been there had been for kneeling there. There had been some social media posts that reuters needed to fact check that claim. And the caption was, megan rapinoe has been disqualified from the soccer hall of fame. Quote, she's a bad role model, end quote. And I'm happy to announce that this has been labeled. Hold on. Where is it?

[Sue Bird]

False. They picked a real good picture. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Great photo. So congratulations on not being disqualified and remaining eligible.

[Sue Bird]

What are the rules? Five years or something after retirement?

[Megan Rapinoe]

Five years or three years?

[Sue Bird]

Ours used to be five and now it's.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I think it's three. I think it's three.

[Sue Bird]

You're on the clock.

[Pablo Torre]

20. 27.

[Megan Rapinoe]

27.

[Pablo Torre]

This is the first year.

[Sue Bird]

Where is it you're eligible?

[Megan Rapinoe]

Frisco, texas.

[Sue Bird]

Oh, another banger of a city we're headed to.

[Pablo Torre]

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[Pablo Torre]

You look the same.

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But with this camera everything looks better. Especially me.

[Megan Rapinoe]

You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.

[Sue Bird]

Selfies check please.

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[Pablo Torre]

The other segue that I was about to seize upon when you mentioned lockout is just what a time to be a power couple. As I've long established, you guys, in which both of you have had experience, like truly unparalleled collective experience, trying to deal with the issue of player salaries in women's sports. Indeed, the state of the union.

[Sue Bird]

Indeed.

[Pablo Torre]

It's become a thing that's broken, contained.

[Tony and Ryan]

Yes, the biggest news in the W.

[Sue Bird]

Is the searing comments from Nafiza Collier in her exit interview earlier this morning.

[Countdown Voice]

At Unrivaled this past February, I sat a car across from Kathy and asked how she planned to address the officiating issues in our league. Her response was, well, only the losers complain about the refs. I also asked how she planned to fix the fact that players like Caitlin, angel and Paige, who are clearly driving massive revenue for the league, are making so little for their first four years. Her response was, caitlin should be grateful she makes 16 million off the court because without the platform that the WNBA gives her, she wouldn't make anything. And in that same conversation, she told me players should be on their knees thanking Their lucky stars for the meteorites deal that I got them.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I'm a human, too. I have a family. I have two kids who are devastated by these comments. And so all I'll say is just, you know, it's obviously been a tough week, and I just think there's a lot of inaccuracy out there.

[Pablo Torre]

This has, of course, been the thing that has been very near and dear to you guys. So I want to just start from the perspective of, like, now people are like, asking who don't know anything. And I'm closer to. I want to represent that side of the dynamic here. So, sue, what is. Where are we? How can you begin to describe this with all of the caveats and disclosures in mind?

[Megan Rapinoe]

Okay, disclaimer incoming.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I know sue is a minority owner of the Seattle Storm.

[Pablo Torre]

Sue's management, yes.

[Sue Bird]

God, how do I expect, I will say the one interesting byproduct of everything we've seen, really, in the last, like, two years in the wnba. But then if you zoom, like, zoom in on the last, what, two weeks? Everybody wants to talk about it. Everybody's got questions. People want to understand. The wonderful thing is we have a great media deal. There is a ton of revenue. I think players deserve to get paid. I think overall, like, the, I guess company line really should be, like, players deserve to get paid. Everybody agrees with that. You know, we want the business to be set up to grow. And both those things, I think can happen. And if, if the cb, I'm not in the rooms, if we can get to that, I think we're going to have a great agreement. But the relationship has soured a little bit. And that's what Nafisa and Kathy and the whole thing.

[Pablo Torre]

So the thing that went super viral was Nafisa Collier just, I mean, again, one of the executives at the union, who also happens to be a co founder of Unrivaled, the off season league that has become, in the framing of this, both an incredible source of leverage, ostensibly, but also a competitor to the wnba. And your mileage varies on which one it is depending on how tense this negotiation ends up being. But that spotlight was shined, I think for the first time in a very obvious way on Kathy Engelbert, the commissioner. And quietly, as someone who has been interested in, in and around various, you know, women's basketball conversations, gatherings, games and stuff, I always heard Kathy isn't perhaps the most inspiring commissioner. The longest sort of like, view of her would be maybe she's not going to be the forever commissioner of this League. I don't think you're allowed to. Can you talk? Okay. Can you.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

What is your view of Kathy?

[Sue Bird]

Only because we're not married.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Is that. Is that accurate? Is that real?

[Sue Bird]

That's, like, kind of accurate. I don't know how, like, if it's like, a rule or if it's just a. But go ahead.

[Megan Rapinoe]

And pretty soon we'll never be able to.

[Pablo Torre]

So I was going to say we'll.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Just forever be, like, able to talk about this stuff, thanks to the Trump administration.

[Pablo Torre]

I'd like to thank this administration for allowing a transparency shout out to the homies. Your translation of, like, what's really happening here from your point of view?

[Megan Rapinoe]

I think that there's lots of roles and hats that the commissioner wears and has to do. Kathy has obviously presided over an incredible growth period. Some of that out of everybody's control. Some of that just, like, that just happened. Great. Some of it. I think she's, you know, had her hand in and obviously has a lot of business experience, and I think that's bode well for the growth of the league. And they did the raise and all of the things. For me, I just see there's, like, a relationship breakdown. And listen, I feel like this is really normal when business is booming. I feel like the CBA negotiations are contentious. Like, the players want more and the owners want to give less. It's, like, generally how it goes. And this is a unique time when we're outgrown the CBA probably by, like, two years, but that's. That's what it is. Like, the player signed it. The owner's line, like, this is. This is where we're at. So it's just tough when the business that the players are participating in off the field, they're seeing a increase, or they're seeing that business grow in their own bank account, but not seeing it grow over here because it can't yet, because we're negotiating the CBA right now. But I think with Kathy, if, you know, I have to, like, point to a failure, it's clearly that the trust in the relationship with the players has really broken down. And they're, you know, saying things that happen in private meetings. It seems like they feel like they're not being heard. And so this is their only lever to pull to, like, get their side of the story out there. And I do think that's on Kathy. Like, ultimately, yeah, everybody needs to conduct themselves in the best way possible. But, like, you're the figurehead. And so I think she could have Done a better job at maybe having more open ears or hearing them more or giving in some areas where she could. Knowing that she's going to have to say no in other areas. But I think what's happened is she's just become like the like, oh, we can just dump everything here. Things that, like, aren't her fault. Like, things that she's not even responsible for. It's just like, oh, now we have you to dump it on. And it. She's not really able from a PR perspective to combat that or to bring her side of the story in a way that is effective ultimately. Like, it doesn't really matter if she's likable or not or blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, ultimately you have to be effective. And especially in the court of public opinion. And the players have been very effective. And I don't think Kathy has been effective in that way, which is like piss the players off, frankly.

[Pablo Torre]

So just to explain how this all works, that was very well, well done.

[Sue Bird]

And for the record, I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but it was you.

[Pablo Torre]

No, no. Sue got to the point. Sue almost buried her entire skull in her hands.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I know she's always like, what is she gonna say?

[Pablo Torre]

But the dynamic here is unique because the WNBA has always negotiated inside of what the NBA does. And so the NBA triples its rights deal. Fantastic for the Rising Tide. Lifting all boats, presumably, but the wnba, and this is the way that I summarize for people who don't know, has gone from a thing like people used to say, you should be into that because it's interesting or good or important to just like a real business that you can be into for just greedy financial.

[Sue Bird]

Just be greedy. Just be greedy about business.

[Megan Rapinoe]

It's just for that reason been wanting that.

[Pablo Torre]

The greatest compliment you can give the rise of women's sports is that you could be in it just because you're greedy 3D.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Because you want to make money.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

But the. The way it works is. So Adam Silver is a top of all of this in terms of the commissioner of the NBA. Of course, Kathy in that dynamic is the head of the wnba. But the WNBA is inside of the Russian nesting doll that is the league broadly. And so Kathy, when it comes to like the various things people blame her for, you didn't handle the Caitlyn Clark experience well enough. Didn't maximize it. She didn't feel included enough. Certainly communications with Fee in terms of unrivaled. In terms of. Now this recent press conference into just who do we to your point, Megan, who do we blame as things are not happening? Cba. Boring timeline related reasons where you can't really just flip a switch and be like, everyone's making money in the way that you want to now.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to be realistic about that. But the question I have for Megan.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Telling to the best I can, you might be able to answer. We'll see.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Is Kathy Englebert somebody who can keep that job?

[Megan Rapinoe]

I mean, maybe. I think she could keep it through the negotiations. I think it's gonna take some repair. I, I think it's, it's both, like personal and not personal. Like, it's, it at the end of the day. NECA said this the other day. Yeah. President of the wmbpa. Wnbpa, the union. Like, it's business ultimately, but like, you want to have calm labor negotiations. You want to have the ability to. Yes. Like it's gonna hurt both sides. Like, that's a good negotiation. When you walk out and you're like, oh, I didn't get everything I wanted, but I got some things. But I think that is Kathy's relationship to repair. And I think she has some work to do that so she can. But I, I, I don't see a commissioner presiding over a league who, you know, seemingly is this like, unliked.

[Pablo Torre]

It feels, I will say this bluntly as well, as much as I can. It feels like what Nafisa said was said with the intention of, we don't want to deal with her anymore. Like, this is not a try to come back to the table. It's like, you are like, this is we don't trust you.

[Sue Bird]

The only thing I'm going to throw in the ring is just again, I do think to understand where we are now in this moment, you have to understand the history and how it got to this point. I think it's such a big part of it. The WNBA players, myself included, when I was playing were really, I mean, a lot of times at wit's end on how to get people to see what is going on here. Like, how do you pull back the curtains for people? How do you get them to pay attention to discrepancies, to ways in which we've been held back? It's been very frustrating and we learned and then we're incentivized to do it publicly, to take it to the court of public opinion. And that would show up in, you know, obviously Fee sitting down with a statement for four minutes is a first.

[Pablo Torre]

To start her, like, exit interview for the season, like playoffs. She Links lose. And guess what? Here is a prepared.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. A prepared statement. So, like, the length of it and, you know, the point she was making, that's unique to this, to this moment and to her. But, you know, whether it's in the social activism space.

[Pablo Torre]

You guys flipped a Senate seat.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. And how'd we do that? We wore some T shirts.

[Pablo Torre]

A political statement tonight from members of the Atlanta Dream against their owner. Dream player Elizabeth Williams tweeted this photograph right here wearing a Vote Warnock shirt. Kelly Leffler, who was an owner, got effectively ousted from the U.S. senate.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Favor of Raphael Warnock, who remains there because of you mother. It's like, legitimately a crazy story.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Kind of, like, flipped the election.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Kind of made an enormous difference in American politics.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. And again, through the course of the last 10 years, I would say we really learned the only way people hear us is if we scream about it and we go and we take it public. One of the stories I just told this one recently, we get to the bubble, right? So we're in this bubble season. We've negotiated, and we arrive, and some of the housing was like townhomes. And there was a laundry room that was. I don't know, like one on each floor kind of a thing. And one of the players went to the laundry room the first day, and it was disgusting. It was just absolutely disgusting. Now we're meant to live in this place for, like, three months. And we brought it to the attention of the WNBA and, like, the powers that be, and nothing got done. And then it took a player. It was Alicia Clark going on first take. I think it was going on some ESPN show. Cause she was friends with a producer, so it got her on to show pictures of this laundry room to talk about it. Cause somebody posted it. Obviously, this reminds us of Sedona Prince.

[Pablo Torre]

I was gonna say TikTok.

[Sue Bird]

And the NCAA tournament.

[Pablo Torre]

Tournament. I got something to show y'. All.

[Sue Bird]

So for the NCAA March Madness, the biggest tournament in.

[Pablo Torre]

In college basketball for women. This is our weight room.

[Sue Bird]

Let me show y' all the men's weight room. As women, as female athletes, we have been incentivized to do this. It's the only way people pay attention. And it's. So that is how and why we're able to. And why we do it.

[Pablo Torre]

Now, look, the Sedona Prince thing, I remember it being so effective because abstractly, you hear like, wow, all these women's college players are complaining about how their weight room is not good enough. You're like, whatever. What does that mean? And then you, like, see the photo and it's like, oh, yeah, that sucks. Like, that's crazily different from what the men get.

[Sue Bird]

All the different meals that people were getting in their Covid bubbles, where the NCAA tournament bubble, our bubble.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Sue Bird]

Like, it's just the only way you have to show people.

[Megan Rapinoe]

And the power of that is increasing because the, the players are superstars now. They're huge, way bigger than they were before. And they have that like, attention grabbing ability that sort of like outsizes what's happening and what they feel like is happening in the league. So it's like, you know, they're making whatever, a couple hundred thousand dollars in league and $10 million off the floor. Like, that's just a huge imbalance. And so they have this microphone, so to speak, that they can leverage and use. And like, ultimately the, the league doesn't have that. They have to combat that. But like, people want to hear from players, they don't want to hear from Kathy or the league.

[Sue Bird]

But when they do that, you have.

[Megan Rapinoe]

To have, like, a mechanism to capture that and be effective.

[Sue Bird]

And the only other thing I want to add to this whole, like, being incentivized. The thing that we always struggled with was what is the line between pointing these things out and on yourself? So what's the line? Like, look how bad this is.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah, like the narrative.

[Sue Bird]

And yes, hopefully half the people are like, that's up. But then the other half are gonna be like, yeah, your weight room should suck. You don't deserve more than that. And so to point those things out, you're taking that risk. And the difference now is the business is booming.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, this is.

[Sue Bird]

I don't think the risk is as great.

[Pablo Torre]

I think about this in terms of the wage scale. Because the wage scale, it's like, again, we use Caitlin Clark because it's the most convenient example, but it's like Caitlin Clark's making $70,000 as a number one overall pick in year one in the WNBA. And part of it is again, sticker shock of like, holy. That said, there's also, I think, the concern of, oh, that's what they've been tolerating. And so the question of, like, how much more do you need to go above that? It's sort of like, if that's where the bar is now. The other question is, how much more can you ask for if sort of like the standard has been so low?

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I think this is where that media deal is. Just the proof's in the pudding. I don't I don't really view it that way. I think this, that deal represents, I don't know, like. So don't quote me exactly. I think our previous media deal was like 22 million criminal. I'm not even joking. Are you looking it up? Can you see if you can find it before I keep on my soapbox?

[Pablo Torre]

Here it is. Right. So in 2014, it was ESPN, it was WNBA, the TV rights deal, which was 25 million per year according to Sports Business Journal. Two sews points.

[Sue Bird]

But here we are now and we have a 2.2 billion with a B billion with a B dollar media deal over 11 years. I'm bad at math. So that's. How much a year? Do we know anyone off the top?

[Megan Rapinoe]

200 a year.

[Sue Bird]

I was gonna say it's 200 years.

[Pablo Torre]

It's about that. Yes.

[Sue Bird]

Okay, so let's call it 200 years. We went from 20 to 30 million a year to 200 a year.

[Pablo Torre]

It's wild.

[Sue Bird]

Assuming some form of a rev share gets kicked into the cba, which obviously they're negotiating. I really don't know.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm not in the rooms.

[Sue Bird]

I don't want to emphasize that. But at the same time, like, you assume this media deal, obviously the players are gonna get something of it already. Boom. You're gonna see salaries go up. I mean, who knows? Hundreds of thousands of dollars right out the gate. And it's not a risk, it's not a question mark. It's not. If we get this, we have it. We have 200 plus million dollars a year from the media deal. And we all know that's how sports leaves thrive. Yeah, it's this media deal and we finally got it.

[Pablo Torre]

Do you have a point of view on like how to negotiate in public about this stuff? Because I dare say you were aggressively. You were. You were allegedly disqualified from your hall of Fame, perhaps because of this. Yeah, I think about all of the time in. And this is why I love. Frankly, I love labor law is because of sports. It's like sports provides this venue for Americans who don't care about labor and management and the dynamic they're in to actually engage with it because it affects things they care about. And with you and the USWNT and how to fight for fair wages. Look, it's different from a pro league, like in a any pro sport I've covered.

[Sue Bird]

No. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

The NFL, the NBA, wnba. Now, like, what's the number one threat a player has? It's that you don't play the games. That's always in the back of my mind, it's like, when do you actually threaten the thing that results in the money? The media, the right steel, the. The actual gate, all that stuff. Explain what the weapons you had in front of you were when it came to women's national soccer team.

[Megan Rapinoe]

This is why I love media, because we had a media was our biggest weapon in our faces, in front of the media and winning all the time, which I feel like the. The W has, that they are collectively winning. They have superstars, they have ultra superstars in the league and. And the players have, as the owners have and everybody has in the W. I really do feel this, like, sacrificed a lot. And so they are frustrated by that of the amount of investment that they've had to make with, like no return. Like, you made 20 years of investment and you got one good contract out of it, and you're not going to get the two good contract out of it and you're not in the street, you know, and a street and a statue and you're not going to get the return. So it's like owners make investments, they get the return. So I think at this moment, really what's happening is like, it's like, who's going to make the bigger investment? Because if the players make the investment, that really means, like, taking less to continue to grow the league so that ultimately the next CBA will be even better. But they're never really going to see that. Like, you just get your contract, you play for it, and then some players are going to be out of the league. You're never going to get it back. Owners are going to see their valuations go up, and I think that's what players are, are looking at. Like, business is booming, your valuations are going up. I know you need to reinvest in the league, but like, eventually, you know, Golden State, even in the first year, they can sell for 500 million or 700 million. The Valkyries.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Megan Rapinoe]

So I feel like, in terms of the public strategy, always leave the doors open. Like, I don't think players should be like, oh, Kathy has to go or we're not playing. I don't think, because it's just like, you never know where things are going to go. Always leave the door open. Negotiate in good faith, go really hard at it. Work stoppages are like catastrophic. And especially this, like, everybody's winning here. The W is doing great.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, it's the nuclear. It's the closest thing to the nuclear option. Right. Because everybody gets mad at that point.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Megan Rapinoe]

And it's like, it's unfavorable in the public. People don't want that. Maybe it'd be more favorable for a women's team to do that. Frankly, I think a lot of times when the men's teams lock out, it's like, oh, you're making $20 million anyways. Like you're just whatever. Meanwhile, the owner's greedy too. But I do think that the players need to keep that in the forefront. It is a tool for sure, but like, it's. It's a blunt object and it's a bad one if you have to use it. So, like, continue to show up, ask for the things that you want. Hear the other side to, you're gonna have to give. Like that's a successful negotiation when. When it hurts a little bit on both sides.

[Sue Bird]

What I always find interesting is how soccer and basketball, how the US women's national team and the WNBA. This is like so different because the WNBA, well now it's like 156 players, which will go up to, you know, give or take 180 or so when we add two more teams next year. But it was 144 for a really long time. 12 teams, 12 spots. And so that's like you're dealing with a lot of different experiences. Whereas for you guys, it's one team and it's part of a national governing body.

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

Right.

[Sue Bird]

So it's like a nonprofit, whereas we're like obviously a for profit business. So it's like totally different in terms of what you're negotiating, what you can ask for, the rules around it. So there is a difference. I actually don't know your answer to this question. For me and for the wnba on the last cba, we really tried to set it up. Where come this cba, we could just be talking about money. So we got 100% maternity leave. We got. This is gonna sound crazy, but it was a big thing we got. Everybody had their own room on the road. So for who knows, let's call it six, seven years prior in the cba, before the one they're in currently now. It was like you only got your own room after six years of service. You had a room with people in your first six years. So we got everybody their own room. That was a win. Things like economy to Economy plus. Everybody now had to be in Economy plus or whatever the airline calls it.

[Pablo Torre]

You divas.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah, I know.

[Sue Bird]

But these slowly but surely and obviously now you fast forward. They were able to do this mid cba. They've got charter flights so that's checked. So there's a lot of things, a lot of boxes that we got checked in the last cba. And there's so many things. There's so many things. You're lucky if you get three of them. And we got a lot of them in the last cba.

[Pablo Torre]

It almost sounds though like it was accomplished, those things with the goal of we want to clear the decks for the actual conversation, for the fight for the money.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Which is always gonna be the money.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah. But we knew that meant it was growing.

[Pablo Torre]

How would you describe the various contract timing decisions that have been made in terms of players who happen to be conveniently seemingly aligned on this?

[Sue Bird]

We signed that last CBA in like January of 2020. We knew it was like six year deal with an opt out, whatever it was. Honestly, everybody, I think every player understood in that moment we were going to be opting out no matter what. Like, I didn't see a scenario where we weren't. So that happened. But even prior to that, two, three years ago, you started hearing players, started seeing the contracts they were signing. Everybody was understanding that our media deal was going to be big. And then obviously now you enter Caitlin Clark, you enter Angel Reese, you enter this new wave of players and it's like, oh, it's definitely going to be big. No player signed a deal that went past, except for like two. I think there's two.

[Pablo Torre]

Out of the 144.

[Sue Bird]

Out of the 144. I think there's like two or three vets that have a deal that extends one more year past this year.

[Pablo Torre]

Wow.

[Sue Bird]

And then it's all the rookies who got drafted in the last couple years are still on their rookie deal.

[Megan Rapinoe]

And those salaries will go up to whatever the minimum.

[Sue Bird]

Whatever the salary. So if Caitlyn's at the 70, whatever thousand dollars mark, let's say the new minimum of the next CBA is 250, she'll jump to that. But every single other player, every single other player's deal ran out or is running out this year. They will all be free agents plus, plus two expansion drafts.

[Pablo Torre]

That's wild.

[Megan Rapinoe]

The GMs are about to earn every single.

[Sue Bird]

Earn every cent.

[Megan Rapinoe]

It's really going to separate some people.

[Sue Bird]

It's going to take the first domino to fall. So some player will get signed to something and it'll set the market value for everybody.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't know of a scenario that's like that.

[Sue Bird]

Me neither.

[Pablo Torre]

In pro sports history. Because. Because the entire thing I just said before is what Happens if the players don't play well. Here you have a true like crossroads where the players are not even under contract.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

It's not. They'd have to sit out. It's like they're just not gonna. They might not sign. As they say in Jurassic Park. Clever girl.

[Verizon Ad Voice]

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[Megan Rapinoe]

You look the same.

[Verizon Ad Voice]

But with this camera, everything looks better, Especially me.

[Megan Rapinoe]

You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.

[Sue Bird]

Selfies check, please.

[Verizon Ad Legal Voice]

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[Pablo Torre]

Did I talk too much? Can I just let it go? Thank you so much.

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[Pablo Torre]

My favorite moment from your parade of honors, which was stud buds, you guys, Adam Silver. That's the best in a photograph. So for those not familiar with the commissioner of the NBA, how would you describe his Instagram account?

[Sue Bird]

I mean, it's just hilarious. Yeah, I actually love it.

[Megan Rapinoe]

It's like a name drop, but, like, it's good.

[Pablo Torre]

It's a captionless, just like series of. Here.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Like, I was here.

[Pablo Torre]

Exactly.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Here I am.

[Sue Bird]

I love it. It's a flat Stanley. Yeah. Yeah, 100% it's a flat Stanley in real life.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I think it's great.

[Pablo Torre]

It is. It is.

[Sue Bird]

These are the places I go and the things I've seen and people I'm around.

[Pablo Torre]

Much like Megan, Adam Silver loves his collection of photographs I love it. And the number one photograph that took over my algorithm, my feed was you two, the stud buds. Who again, please explain the stud Buds because I can't really do justice to the term or the characters.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, yeah. Courtney Williams and Natisha Heidelman, longtime teammates the Lynx play on the Lynx now have played together for many, many years. Best friends decided to start a live stream on Twitch.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Natisha basically backs Courtney up. Like Natisha comes off the bench and Courtney starts. So it's like they're in the same position. They're best buds. It's like the most beautiful, like little friendship ever.

[Sue Bird]

It's so cute to see them on this stream.

[Pablo Torre]

It's great.

[Sue Bird]

Content is to know them. This is who they are. This is not a performance. Yeah, vibes are always. I mean, Courtney is like a one liner queen. Anytime she's getting pulled at halftime to do an interview, do not change your channel. Like something's coming out of her mouth. And so they came up with the name Stud Buds. Stud, obviously referring to them both being gay, both being more like mask presentings. That's the stud. And then you know what a bud is. They're buds.

[Megan Rapinoe]

They're buds.

[Pablo Torre]

They're buds.

[Sue Bird]

So they're stud buds. And so yeah, the picture is you.

[Pablo Torre]

Two and them two and the commissioner of the NBA And Megan, can you explain the context and the conversation that was happening earlier?

[Megan Rapinoe]

On a previous stream, Courtney purported that she had never, ever been strapped before. And Matisha was like, never. Like, really? She's like, no, no, no, no, never. And. And I just feel like we need.

[Sue Bird]

To be a little more specific. And for our audience, we really need. We have to be more specific, which.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Is basically just like have someone penetrating you with the strap on.

[Sue Bird]

Okay. Because I would have said use the word penetration.

[Megan Rapinoe]

What would you say?

[Sue Bird]

I just would have said, go ahead.

[Megan Rapinoe]

You nailed it.

[Sue Bird]

Yeah, I mean it is.

[Megan Rapinoe]

That's technically what it is.

[Pablo Torre]

Being nailed.

[Megan Rapinoe]

This is. It's being nailed up. It's. Yeah, exactly. It's being nailed.

[Sue Bird]

And.

[Megan Rapinoe]

And Courtney was like, nah, never.

[Sue Bird]

Hell no.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh my God.

[Sue Bird]

I don't play like that now.

[Pablo Torre]

Strappy lapies. But like you're never, ever.

[Megan Rapinoe]

And then teacher's like, never, like, I don't really believe you. But also it was whatever. So that was my burning question for all star. I was like, I've got to get in there. We have to. This is no way that that is true. But also I just need to. I need to just have that conversation. And that's the photo that Adam snapped.

[Sue Bird]

The photo that appears on Adam's grid, on his Instagram grid, Adam's down. Is a photo of Megan basically going to Courtney Williams on their live stream. By the way, the live stream is happening. So this is recording.

[Megan Rapinoe]

People needed to know.

[Sue Bird]

And saying to Courtney, like, never. You actually never did that.

[Megan Rapinoe]

We had to address the best moment on Studbus. What is that?

[Fantasy Fangirls Podcast Hosts]

Never.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Oh, never. Strapped.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait, what? What?

[Sue Bird]

What are you, like, for real? She tries these and you know Adam. I'm assuming Adam's photographer actually captured the moment. So Adam wasn't even there. Fun fact. Oh, Adam texted me the next day after we talked about it. He was like, what am I missing here? A lot, Adam. Everything.

[Megan Rapinoe]

You're missing everything.

[Sue Bird]

He's like, I see that. Everyone's laughing about it. What happened?

[Megan Rapinoe]

I was like, he knows vibes.

[Sue Bird]

How much time do you have?

[Megan Rapinoe]

He knows good vibes.

[Sue Bird]

He knows good vibes. We were having time. We were having a. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So Adam Silver does or doesn't know what strapping is?

[Megan Rapinoe]

He does now. He definitely does now.

[Sue Bird]

I'm sure he knows now.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

If he didn't before.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Yeah.

[Sue Bird]

I'm sure he knows now.

[Pablo Torre]

I'd like to retract what I said before when I said that I wasn't sure you guys were journalists. Megan is just making direct eye contact with the camera. And Jim Alford in the office.

[Sue Bird]

Can I be honest? You're not going to love this, but this is what it's like doing a podcast with her. You just talk, right? To the camera. You never talk to me.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I got to get to my people.

[Sue Bird]

I'll be like, we're having the conversation. Why are you talking to the camera?

[Megan Rapinoe]

Cuz we're having the conversation with.

[Sue Bird]

It's so funny.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Followers.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right.

[Sue Bird]

Always goes with the.

[Pablo Torre]

With. With.

[Megan Rapinoe]

I'm one of these people. I'm like, looking at me. I'm such a big fan of the show.

[Pablo Torre]

Megan sue, thank you for being in this business. Thank you for giving me the honor of giving Butter Pablo a friend.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Sue Bird]

You're welcome. You're welcome.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production. And I'll talk to you next time.

[Verizon Ad Voice]

Dude, did you order the new iPhone 17 Pro? Got it from Verizon, the best 5G network in America. I never look so good.

[Megan Rapinoe]

You look the same.

[Verizon Ad Voice]

But with this camera, everything looks better. Especially me.

[Megan Rapinoe]

You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.

[Sue Bird]

Selfies, check, please.

[Verizon Ad Legal Voice]

With Verizon, new and existing customers can get the new iPhone 17 Pro designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever, plus a new iPad and Apple One with eligible phone trade in and unlimited ultimate best 5G swords route metrics data, United States 1H 2025 All Rights Reserve, trade in and additional terms apply for all offers. See verizon.com for details.

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

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[Pablo Torre]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts.

[Megan Rapinoe]

Here's the show that we recommend.

[Fantasy Fangirls Podcast Hosts]

Are you a fantasy reader looking to cure your book hangover? Then welcome, welcome, welcome to the Fantasy Fangirls podcast. I'm Lexi, older sister and fantasy lore nerd. And I'm Nicole, younger sister and romantic at heart. And we love exploring these stories, worlds and characters well beyond the last page. Fantasy Fangirls is not your typical book. Deep Dive Podcast when we say Deep dive, we mean Deep Dive, where every episode covers a stretch of chapters and is structured with five segments to easily follow along. We are currently deep diving Quicksilver by Callie Hart in the lead up to its highly intimate, anticipated sequel, Brimstone. We're so excited. We hope you join us as we travel through the Quicksilver to dive deep into literary and character analysis, theories, lore, themes and so much more.

[Pablo Torre]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.