← Pablo Torre Finds Out
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- [00:01]
Pablo Torre
Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is. Today is my birthday. Right after this ad.
- [00:12]
Mina Kimes
You're listening to Giraffe Kings. Were you guys big library kids growing up? Yeah, I mean, like living, growing up in New York. Pablo, were public libraries, did you guys go to use them a lot?
- [00:38]
Pablo Torre
Yeah, we had one right between my house and our school. And I. It's the same. I mean, unfortunately, it is exactly the same in 2024 as it was in 1990. I went back and brought Violet there and I was like, these are the same books. Like, this is my name. I. I checked this out. 30.
- [00:56]
David Dennis Jr.
Yeah, we had a. We had a public library across the street from my middle school. So that ended up being like the community. I was like the after school care for middle school kids. You just go there and wait for your parents to come pick you up. And it was like packed. Like all. Everybody wanted to go to that. Like, people would miss the bus on purpose so they can go to that library and just hang out. Like, that was, that was the thing. Now the library is closed. So that's just. That's how things roll, you know.
- [01:22]
Mina Kimes
I feel like there was generally like a turning point when personal computing became a thing. Right? Because when we grew up, libraries either didn't have computers or they were like on the very. Like computers were kind of new and it was like imacs. Like one iMac, like one purple iMac, everybody had to wait in line to use. Now I feel like, though, but once libraries became a place where, like, people who didn't have computers, that's just where they went to use the computer. The whole dynamic of the library changed. It became a little bit more utilitarian or maybe like a creepy old guy looking at porn.
- [01:53]
Pablo Torre
Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say libraries went from a place where you could like, check out, you know, the Stinky Cheese man and other adventures as a kid to the place where now you see adults just straight up watching pornography.
- [02:07]
Mina Kimes
When I was a kid, my parents used to punish me by taking away library time. Like, they'd be like. Because I. Cause going to the library was that I looked forward to all week. And if I like, you know, didn't finish my dinner or something or whatever, they'd be like, no library trip this week. And that was. Yeah, I was a nerd.
- [02:27]
Pablo Torre
So, yeah, it just, just, just the most predictable origin story.
- [02:35]
David Dennis Jr.
I have tried to not withhold anything. I try, like to not. So I try to go and I'm Anti punishment, which is what I've been trying to do. Like, I've been trying to go anti punishment. And, like, my son's older. He's in middle school, so, like, there's like, a different sort of like, thing there where I'm trying to, like, talk to him about, like, larger topics about, like, prison abolition and policing and things like that. And what does punishment mean? So, like, he's been like, does this mean I'm getting punished? And I'd be like, I don't believe you should get punished. I don't want to withhold a thing from you.
- [03:06]
Mina Kimes
I'm just laughing, visualizing Nino biting me, because that's his new thing. He's got teeth now. And me being like, I really don't like when you do that. But I also want to teach you about prison abolition right now.
- [03:18]
David Dennis Jr.
Never too early. Never too early to restorative justice here. Never too early to give us some Angela Davis, like, right under the. Right under the pillowcase and see what happens.
- [03:26]
Pablo Torre
You know, I want to stick around in the area of. Of our childhoods because, David, you brought a story today that is relevant to all of our adulthoods also.
- [03:54]
Mina Kimes
Not all.
- [03:55]
Pablo Torre
So what you got?
- [03:56]
David Dennis Jr.
So. Oh, okay. All right. Spicy.
- [03:58]
Pablo Torre
All right, boys.
- [03:59]
Mina Kimes
Boys.
- [04:01]
Pablo Torre
Yeah, I know.
- [04:02]
David Dennis Jr.
I know. The patriarchy. So GQ has a story about how dudes are weird about birthdays, right? And reading the article was interesting. It was also sort of, like, humbling because I was like, thought I had, like, a unique story and that I was weird about my birthday. I was like, yeah, it's, like, a thing. But then it's like, no, I'm a typical guy. All the guys are weird about their birthdays, I thought, you know, like. And it's just like. It was interesting because she, like, interviewed some of the people who were, you know, on staff and stuff like that and talked about them. And guys just are weird about their birthdays. And everybody had different excuse or different reasons. Like, I have my reasons. I felt like, as a kid of, like, a divorce, I thought it was just weird to be, like. It was difficult, right? To be like, you got people who may not necessarily always like each other, that you got to put them in the same room. And I felt a lot of pressure. I was kind of like, don't like birthdays. I didn't put my birthday on Facebook for years. Like, that was the thing. Like, people didn't even know when the birthday was. I would try to go about it like a normal thing. And I was just like, yeah, I'm not A birthday person. But then like all guys are like that. And I am so non unique and very typical and very like, like every other guy.
- [05:14]
Pablo Torre
Yo, so okay, so I'll talk about myself in a second. But I have a friend, my friend Pietro, one of my childhood friends. And he, to prove this point, actually fellow dude took his birthday off of Facebook and was like, I'm going to find out who's really like my friend. And let me tell you what happened.
- [05:30]
David Dennis Jr.
Nobody.
- [05:30]
Pablo Torre
He got zero happy birthdays on his wall. Nobody knew. Everybody, everybody was like, this is a you problem. And I realized it's also a me problem because I'm one of these people. It is this way, like you amongst your co workers and friends, like, do they know how little you want to celebrate your own birthday? And do they know that you're weird about it? Nina. And people in this article are like, look, I have background character syndrome, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, but I have this. And I'm a guy with my name in my show. And so I am also this way.
- [06:02]
Mina Kimes
Let me jump in here and ask because this is. The article is about. The reason I said not all of us is because this article is like, men are weird by celebrating birthday. And I think that is largely true. Honestly, like, based on like the men and women in my life, women seem to be more likely to have birthday parties, to do birthday weeks, which is I something I personally judge. I'm like, come on, we're adults. You don't have to like, you don't the whole birthday week celebrate. That's not for me, but whatever.
- [06:29]
Pablo Torre
Like Shark Week, but.
- [06:31]
Mina Kimes
And men don't do that is. And I think that's kind of true. So I think what I want to ask you guys, because to get at the heart of why this might be, is it that you don't actually like being celebrated, having the party, getting attention, or do you not like being the person who initiates that? Because a lot of the quotes in this article were men feeling embarrassed about asking other people to celebrate them or like being seen as deliberately seeking attention or participating in this tradition. And I can't tell if it's more about the embarrassment or self consciousness of being like the initiator or you just don't like being the center of attention. Because we know Pablo loves being the center of attention.
- [07:14]
David Dennis Jr.
As he established, it's not necessarily embarrassment. Like asking people to show up for your birthday is a very vulnerable thing to do. Right? Right. And you have to be really in touch with your emotions to set up A birthday party. Like, have you ever. Like, I've been thinking about, like, have you ever talked to a woman about a birthday party that went wrong? And, like, the. The things that they express in those. Like, they set them up and they say, my friend didn't show up, and it made me sad, and I was upset, and I had to talk to them, and we had to have a conversation about how they were acting crazy at my party. And we had to do these things that were, like, emotion. Like, they're. That are, like, emotionally vulnerable and emotionally, like, connected. Right? And men, like, I don't want to. Not me, but, like, men do not want to be in a position like, hey, can you show up my party? Oh, you didn't show up. Now I'm disappointed. Now I gotta, like, express these feelings that men are like. Like, we don't. We, like, traditionally say that we do not want to do these things. Like, I don't want to put myself in a position to say, please come. Oh, you can't come. Now I'm sad. Why couldn't you make it? And, like, we have to, like, talk emotionally to each other.
- [08:19]
Pablo Torre
There is something about. I mean, again, I. I cop to this. It's obvious if you've ever listened to me, I want to be liked, but I hate more than anything saying, please like me. And that request is the embodiment to me of like, hey, guys, it's my birthday. Come celebrate me. I. You sort of want a layer, a plausible deniability. It reminds me of how sometimes I'll see this on. On Twitter as well, where it's like, you'll see a guy invariably, like, quote, tweet someone telling them happy birthday and saying thank you, so that they're not saying, hey, everybody, it's my birthday. It's like, they just need one degree away from the actual act that we want, which is to be celebrated, actually, despite all of it. And so it's stressful. Mina on High Noon, there was a day where I just didn't tell anybody. And then at the end of the day, someone realized it. And I then was just like, it was worse, admittedly, like, it's. It's not. The ideal way to handle it is to wait for someone to be like, oh, it's your birthday. We should have done something. And you'd be like.
- [09:26]
David Dennis Jr.
Because then when they start doing it, you start eating it up. You know, you're just kind of like, yeah, it is my birthday. It's like, yeah, it's okay. Let's have a cake. Let's go get drinks. And it's like, you could have done this two weeks ago. We would have. We would have been there for you.
- [09:38]
Mina Kimes
So I do like celebrating my birthday, but the reason I like it is not because I like being fetid. And it's not that I don't like being praised, like all of us, I do, but, like, you know, I'm not gonna like being praised for just existing is, like, kind of meaningless to me, you know? So I. I don't draw, like, a lot of pleasure out of that. However, I do like to have birthday parties. I think you've been to some of them, Pablo. Because one of my great pleasures in life is, is when my friends become friends.
- [10:15]
Pablo Torre
And I just.
- [10:16]
Mina Kimes
That I love that feeling. I don't know why. It's like one of my favorite feelings in the world is just watching two people, like, maybe in different, like someone I work with and somebody I went to college with, and they're talking at a party, and then a few weeks later, I hear they got coffee.
- [10:29]
David Dennis Jr.
Oh, yeah, that's such a rush. Yeah, that's a rush. It's like a rush.
- [10:33]
Mina Kimes
And so, yeah.
- [10:35]
Pablo Torre
Can I confess something about that specifically? I. I don't have that. And I think it's because I'm afraid of them not getting along. Like, I am so deeply siloed. My friend groups. And this is another reason why I'm terrible at throwing my own birthday party, is I don't actually want to have everybody from the different corners of my life encounter each other, because I just love it the way it is. And I'm kind of selfishly like, what if it. What if. What if this doesn't work? And I'm actually fearful of it.
- [11:05]
David Dennis Jr.
So I have a story that kind of ties this a little bit all together. Is that, like. So as you know, you may or may not know, I was on NBA today for the first time. Like a month or so ago. I was out in la. Me and Mina hung out. It was great. And so I was really happy about it. I was, like, really ecstatic about it. Like, it was cool. They loved me. It was cool. And I just told my partner. I was like, hey, can we, like, I want to celebrate. I want to celebrate this, like, really cool thing. Can we, like, have a get together? Like, can we just get some friends and, like, make it happen? And so she, like, took. Took the lead and, like, invited people over and had. But, like, even to Pablo's point, when I invited my friends, I was like, hey, you know, my girlfriend wants to do something. For me, it wasn't like, hey, like, guys, pull up. I was like, she wants to do something for me. So, like, come on and hang out. But, like, when we did it, it was my friends and her friends and, like, like, interconnected people were, like, hanging out and, like, making plans. And I was like, this is, like, orgasmic. Like, this is the best thing to ever happen. And it sort of became like, a gateway drug to me wanting to have a birthday party. Like, I really want to have my first, like, adult birthday party with a lot of people, like, coming together and hanging out because they were at this thing, they were celebrating me, like they were there. And everybody who showed up was like, congratulations. And it felt really, really good. And, like, I must admit that I needed somebody to, like, hold my hand through the process.
- [12:29]
Pablo Torre
So this sent me down memory lane, right? Because it occurred to me as I was grappling with my own neuroses about this, that I didn't used to be this way. Like, I. I wanna. I want us all to remember what our, like, favorite birthdays were like as kids now. All of us, the three of us as parents. Because I did recently find this video, Neil Darling, so you can be happy.
- [12:56]
David Dennis Jr.
Is that a new tape, please?
- [12:58]
Mina Kimes
Hi.
- [12:58]
Pablo Torre
Happy birthday. Where's my dad? This is my Phoebe's birthday. And I named him Kept bae.
- [13:07]
David Dennis Jr.
How old are you?
- [13:08]
Mina Kimes
Four. You can see right there.
- [13:11]
Pablo Torre
We had turkey for every holiday and birthday because we thought that would. That's what Americans did, I think.
- [13:18]
Mina Kimes
Which one is your favorite? Oh, starting baseball.
- [13:23]
David Dennis Jr.
No birthdays. Complete without some GI Joe war propaganda familiar to wash everything down.
- [13:33]
Pablo Torre
I watched that, and I was like, this was my favorite day of the year once upon a time.
- [13:38]
David Dennis Jr.
Also, as a kid, though, you don't have control. Like, you don't have control over the guests. You know, like, you are not asking. You still have that, like, degree of separation, like, your parents did it. And if the kid doesn't show up, it's because their mom or dad had, like, church or, like, practice or something that they had to go to. Like, you're still not in that. You're just there receiving everything and enjoying Chuck E. Cheese and, like, that. There's stuff to do, but there's. You're not putting that sort of vulnerability that you will. That you will as an adult.
- [14:10]
Mina Kimes
It was a big deal at school, too, which that, you know, like, everybody was nice to you and the teacher did give you a little moment when it was your birthday during, like, I used to be disappointed when my birthday was not during the school week for that reason. And if I have birthday trauma, it's because My birthday is September 8, which was typically like the first week of school or something. And because I moved around a lot as a kid, often I didn't have friends by that time. So a lot of, like, a lot of times growing up, I wasn't able to have like a big birthday party because I didn't know many people. It's really sad.
- [14:51]
Pablo Torre
So wait, so how do you approach Mina? How are you approaching Nino's birthday? Right, his birthday coming up.
- [14:56]
Mina Kimes
Is it Saturday or. Actually, no, probably the party's Saturday. Birthday's Friday. So actually the day this comes out is my son's first birthday, which is a big deal in Korean culture. So is the hundred days, which we didn't celebrate, but it's called the dole. And yeah, you have big party and then you have a ceremony. I did this as a kid, sent you guys photo.
- [15:16]
David Dennis Jr.
An adorable photo. Let's not parents.
- [15:20]
Pablo Torre
We're going to show this little baby.
- [15:21]
Mina Kimes
Hanbok and we'll see how long Nino lasts in his. I've got the over under in about five minutes and you're going to bite through that. Well, it was hard to find one big enough for him then the ceremony is called a dol job. So the kid sits in front of a bunch of objects, and then whatever you crawl to and grab, like, foretells your destiny. You can obviously, as. Because parents, you get to choose the objects. You could stack the deck if you want.
- [15:49]
Pablo Torre
There's wait, what do you.
- [15:52]
Mina Kimes
Conversations about this where basically at first we were just coming up with bits like we were like podcaster Mike. And then I was like, I don't want to like in 10, 20 years tell my son that we did a bit on his birthday. So we ended up going with pretty straightforward ones, like a gavel, a paintbrush, a stethoscope, whatever. Steth. By the way, if you want to automatically make a group of Korean parents lose their minds, watch a baby crawl towards the stethoscope. But yeah, so. So we're going to do that and I'll let you guys know what the.
- [16:25]
Pablo Torre
Results are at the end of this segment. I should probably reveal that this episode is out on Friday and today is my birthday, and neither of you guys brought that out.
- [16:35]
David Dennis Jr.
I didn't see it on Facebook, So there's that. You know what I'm saying? So I don't know. I didn't know what to do.
- [16:40]
Mina Kimes
You know why I don't like acknowledging your birthday, Pablo just Waiting. He's two weeks younger than me, David, which I. Oh.
- [16:46]
David Dennis Jr.
Oh, man.
- [16:48]
Pablo Torre
Nothing is more cosmically frustrating for Mina than knowing that she had a head start on achieving and that that explains. So foreign. So the story that I brought is a bit off the board. It is a sports story. It is in the realm of just like online, I would say, maladaptive behaviors, because I don't know if you guys really follow, like, ultra marathon running. It is one of the most ridiculous sports that is only a sport insofar as people are doing athletic things. It is different in the degree of everything else in my mind, because these are races that involve you running between 31 and 3100 miles. Okay, so this is what an ultramarathon is as a matter of distance. And there's been a controversy in the world of ultramarathon running that concerns Wikipedia. And I want to explain this for people who don't give a about distance running, because you don't need to to appreciate this story. All you need to know is that one of the greatest ultramarathon runners has been found guilty, via online Internet sleuthing, of editing her own Wikipedia page and the Wikipedia pages of her, it seems, foremost competitors and rivals. And so one of the great statements that keeps recurring in the reporting on this stuff is that, and I want to get. I want to get her name here. Camille Herron, objectively a great ultramarathoner, has repeatedly, along with her husband, it seems, removed statements like, quote, widely regarded as one of the best trail runners ever, end quote, from her opponent's Wikipedia pages. Killian Journey and Courtney Dewalter, I believe is their names. And the justification was that she was quote, unquote, removing puffery. And so she was just sort of like editing Wikipedia for some sort of like, larger, more noble truth, fact finding mission. Except she also then added that same thing, one of the greatest trail runners ever, to her own page and just kept on doing this and doing this and doing this. And it just reminded me that Wikipedia, when it comes to places where the Burner account feels, feels like a cousin of this story. But Wikipedia to me, also feels far more significant because we've also gotten to a point where Wikipedia is just the encyclopedia.
- [19:20]
Mina Kimes
I was thinking about burners as well. Right. This is a classic Burner story. But I think the Wikipedia aspect does make it a little bit unique. And something that Pablo and I have talked about, David, a lot on the show is how the Internet, Google, is becoming increasingly messy, unusable, cluttered with, you know, it's impossible to find any information. Social media also as well, obviously. And I think Wikipedia is, like, one of the few things that people trust. One of the few places where if you're trying to find an answer to. I know personally, like, I am, if I'm trying to find a basic answer to question, nine times out of ten, I am clicking on the Wikipedia. And that has only amplified as the inshitification as the term right of the Internet has grown. So I think it is like, there's more importance to it than ever, perhaps. And when you're doing that, when you're looking for information in Wikipedia and you come across a page that is, like, weirdly has an opinion or doesn't seem like it's been edited that much or something's off, it really jumps out because of that, because it has more credibility than most places on the Internet right now.
- [20:28]
David Dennis Jr.
My favorite part of the story was that they were like, we had to stop her from using words like, like warrior or whatever, like these, like, adjectives. Like, it was really.
- [20:37]
Pablo Torre
Oh, God. Yes. Hold on. Yes. Using language like legendary, prestigious, and quote unquote steely toughness is not the kind of neutral tone that is allowed in writing here. According to a Wikipedia moderator who was.
- [20:50]
David Dennis Jr.
Like, policing this, 2024 is the year of the hater. Like, Kendrick Lamar said that he was the biggest hater. And that is incorrect because this is hating on a whole nother level to go change somebody's Wikipedia page, which is a step above a burner account. Because a burner account is just some dweed being like, no, like, you know, like Kevin Durant being like, no, I'm better than Steph Curry, blah, blah, blah, like, like, with some random account. This is somebody changing what we as societally have considered, like, the record of fact. Right? The record, like, you know, it's not, you know, congressional record of fact, but we soc thinking of. Of it as that. And you are changing that to, you know, down your enemy or your opponent.
- [21:30]
Pablo Torre
Yeah, no, it's. To me, at this point, it's the number one SEO result. If you Google someone's name, typically is their Wikipedia page. And so when Camille Heron and her husband have reportedly made more than 300 contributions to pages on Wikipedia since 2017, and more than half of them are entirely embellishments to her own page. It's something that the Wikipedia moderating sort of squad, like, it's, it's. It's. Yeah, thank God they exist. You know, like this volunteer army of people who are there to police these micro edits. It, it's just part of me wonders, Mina. Like, the inchitification of Wikipedia has been prevented because it is deliberately like, this nonprofit enterprise with volunteer force. Like, it's like the ProPublica of like, Internet sites at this point, weirdly, despite also being a place that of course used to be, it used to be the exact sort of nightmare example for teachers being like, don't look this up on like, that's not what you. But now it's somehow like the most trusted authority.
- [22:36]
Mina Kimes
I don't know if that's a few. I feel like that's more about the direction the Internet is going in and less about, like, Wikipedia getting better per se. But it does make it more important.
- [22:47]
Pablo Torre
Right, right.
- [22:47]
Mina Kimes
That's just what I was just thinking reading this. Like, I don't know your guys's experience with your own Wikipedia pages are. But, you know, I find that like, if I'm doing like an engagement, speaking engagement, or like, if I'm interviewing someone, they will reference things from. Like, it's clearly the thing people use to get information about me. And so, you know, I, I look at my own, I, I, I, sorry, I looked at my own ahead of doing this and it's a little weird. Like, some of the stuff that's highlighted is kind of odd and like, it feels a little dated. It, that's true right now, but it's not how I would rate my own bio.
- [23:24]
Pablo Torre
This was an athlete, a public figure trying to write her own biography.
- [23:28]
Mina Kimes
Yeah.
- [23:29]
Pablo Torre
And I get it insofar as I look at my Wikipedia page right now and the photo of me is not one that I would choose. It's from like a weird, like, sponsored content thing I did with AT&T. And I'm like, I'm wearing like an AT&T shirt with an AT&T microphone. I'm like, can we not have this as like, the, the portrait of my journalism, please? But you don't get to choose that. And I don't think they would allow me to edit it lest I be flagged by, again, one of the various people who, by the way, this person's husband, the ultramarathoner's husband has claimed were the cyber bullies. But in fact, when you click into this are just like, again, the moderators who are trying to make sure that anything resembling truth is still, is still part of this enterprise.
- [24:12]
Mina Kimes
Journalism is increasingly, like, harder to do or harder to do and just fewer careers in it. And like, a lot of documentaries are made by the subjects themselves, and people seem to be more in control of their own images than ever, perhaps. And I think something like Wikipedia, where you don't have control if it's done properly, must be very frustrating to someone like this who obviously tried to manipulate that process and got caught. Right. Like, it is like one of the very few things that like, you can't really get away with lying about yourself now in today's like, where. Because social media has like taken such a vast. Also, like, it has overtaken a lot of the Internet in terms of like, the stories that people tell about themselves. This is like one of the very few places that you can't manipulate in the same way.
- [25:07]
Pablo Torre
Yeah.
- [25:07]
David Dennis Jr.
And for you know, one thing that you know that I'm sure we all know of, like, talking to people who are great at something is like this, like, unified obsession with these things. Like, obsession with narratives that you can't control. Like, obsession with like, little slights. And Wikipedia is where those things live a lot of times because they state the facts about things that happen. And like, you don't feel like you have a way to control that. And she tried to find one, like, not only hers, but like the other competitors. But also as we're talking, I don't have a Wikipedia page, which is kind of sweet. I just looked. I don't have a Wikipedia page. It's nice. My dad, who famously was. Used his influence to make me a DEI hire at espn. He does have.
- [25:49]
Pablo Torre
That's right. Notable civil. Actual civil rights activist. Slash Apple Baby creator.
- [25:55]
David Dennis Jr.
Yes. Me and Bernice co hosting pti next week. Everybody tune in. So yeah, he has a Wikipedia page, which is really like, it's things that I did not. Had not heard of about him. And I'd like to think about like, you know, these things that you want to consider private. A lot of times are out there for people. Like, it's a. It's a. It could be a terrifying place on the Internet to have a Wikipedia page. Like, I like when Mina was like, we all have one. I was like, I hope I don't because, like, I do not. I as terrified of, like, things about me being on the Internet.
- [26:29]
Mina Kimes
Do you guys have Wikipedia pages that you like that are your favorites? Like, anything like a person, like a concept. I've sent this to. I'm in a group chat with Pablo. The list of nicknames used by Donald Trump is an incredible Wikipedia page.
- [26:43]
Pablo Torre
Oh, God.
- [26:44]
Mina Kimes
Because there's so many nicknames we know about, like involving like leaders in other countries. Like, just really. It's so long. I'm scrolling down right now. There's so many nicknames.
- [26:54]
Pablo Torre
It is totally the case to Mina's point that, like, the bar has fallen for our authorities on truth. And so pages that, for example, remind us that Jeff Bezos's nickname from Donald Trump was Jeff Bozo. Yeah, those, those, those become far more important.
- [27:11]
Mina Kimes
Rod Rosenstein, Mr. Peepers, parenthetical denied by Trump.
- [27:16]
Pablo Torre
What another great Wikipedia page that producer Rob just threw my way that I do think is, is again, a historical document that should be revered is just list of sandwiches. And it's just a list of every sandwich. It is American sub, bacon, bacon, egg and cheese, bagel, toast, baked bean, banh mi barbecue, baros harpa, baros, luco with pictures, beef on weck, bifana, blt, bocadillo, bokeh, bologna, bondiola, bosna, bratwurst, breakfast roll, breakfast, bruge, croquet, Netherlands Sandwich says it.
- [27:57]
David Dennis Jr.
Originally originated in Boston. Oh, I don't know. That's. I don't know about that.
- [28:01]
Mina Kimes
Can I just. Hot dog is listed. Oh, we're sandwiches.
- [28:08]
Pablo Torre
Yes. I also found a sandwich that looks like it was a nickname that Donald Trump gave to somebody because there's a sandwich from Jacksonville, Florida that is lunch meats and Italian dressings in a pita that is simply called Camel Rider. I'm like, yeah, that sounds, that sounds fraught when it comes to talking, by the way. The other part of this story that I do want to acknowledge, though, is the detective work. Like, I don't know if you guys have had somebody talk you that resulted.
- [28:40]
Mina Kimes
In some sort of way down a rabbit hole the other day.
- [28:42]
Pablo Torre
Operation.
- [28:43]
Mina Kimes
What am I doing? Yeah, sorry.
- [28:46]
Pablo Torre
So my, my, my story also goes back to high school. So there was. This is the most I may ever tell about myself. There was a message board. There's a message board called LD debate.org so I did Lincoln Douglas debate in high school. I was a captain of our speech and debate team. And there is a message board called lddebate.org and there was a user whose posting name was John Galt. Okay, yeah. So this is already horrible. That is just for if you know, you know that this guy is an Ayn Rand inspired poster would post specific things about how me specifically Pablo Torre on this message board, like, was overrated. Just like classic. Just like talk. And weeks later, right, we executed a sting operation. We were able to trace the IP to a suspect and we sent an email with the. This is my friend Mike McTiernan who did this. God bless Mike McTiernan. I have not said your name in years.
- [29:53]
Mina Kimes
But you did this.
- [29:55]
Pablo Torre
Brilliant. He sent a. And he should. He might. He sent an email with a link in and if you click the link, your IP address registered. And so we sent it to the person we thought and we matched the IP address and it was revealed that John Galt was one of my teammates.
- [30:13]
Mina Kimes
Oh.
- [30:17]
Pablo Torre
I'm not going to say his name now because I do believe he works in the actual federal government, which is a thing that I'm just going to dangle over the prospects of a future political career.
- [30:29]
Mina Kimes
I'm just going to say, did you confront him?
- [30:31]
Pablo Torre
I'm not going to say who it is. I'm just saying that he was confronted. He was confronted. Not by me because I'm very non confrontational, but he was confronted by others. And yeah, it was him. It was him. And things radically changed in our locker room.
- [30:49]
David Dennis Jr.
You had your own. You had your own locker room source that went to shams from the message board. Unbelievable.
- [30:57]
Pablo Torre
It was. The call was coming inside the house.
- [31:01]
Mina Kimes
That's wow.
- [31:03]
Pablo Torre
Producer Rob is telling me that there's no. Come on.
- [31:09]
Mina Kimes
Should you read that for the podcast audience? Pablo, since you're the superior podcaster, I would think you would understand how this format works.
- [31:16]
Pablo Torre
Pablo cson Torre, born September 27, 1985, is a superior podcaster to meet Akimes despite being two weeks younger. Who would write such a thing? Who would ever write such a thing?
- [31:25]
Mina Kimes
Can somebody edit that Pablo's entry on my behalf and say that Pablo Torre is superior podcaster to Mina Kimes because unlike many times, that's his main job, perhaps.
- [31:41]
David Dennis Jr.
Oh, hello.
- [31:44]
Mina Kimes
Not just part of his job.
- [31:47]
David Dennis Jr.
Wikipedia is tearing this family apart.
- [32:03]
Mina Kimes
Speaking of locker rooms being ripped apart. Unlv, if you're listening to this, you probably are familiar with the story because it was one of the biggest stories in sports this week. Matthew Sluka, who was the quarterback, was being the operative word here, of University of Nevada Las Vegas, a team that was 3, 0. Very surprising, they beat Kansas. They were being listed as possible Group of 5 playoff contender with the expanded playoffs. Very exciting there. Announced that he is leaving after the 3 and O start. And so as this came out, information, competing information rather came out very quickly. First the news he's leaving and you know, it's oh my gosh. And I think there was a report from someone maybe like a local news reporter saying he was offered more money elsewhere. And immediately people were like, this is nil. It's a mercenary and it's an open market, whatever. Then his side comes out. I think it was his dad or someone maybe talking to Pete Thammel. But there were immediately reports saying, well, he wasn't given the money he was promised by, and as we soon learned, an assistant coach for the team, $100,000. They said, we'll give you $3,000 a game or a quarter or a month or rather. And he hasn't even gotten that. And then UNLV came out again and said, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, we. He tried to. Basically, they insinuated that he tried to. The whole thing is a mess. Point is, he is gone. Consensus view on this is this was inevitable, right? Like, in this new world of nil where there are no rules and there's no, by the way, notably, this was a handshake deal that he is saying happened. And I don't believe anyone at UNLV has denied that. The assistant coach did, like, outright denied that anything has happened. They've just said there was no, like, above the board deal, which doesn't, unless I'm mistaken, deny that there was a handshake deal anyways. But consensus here, most people are reacting to this, saying, wow, this is just how things are right now, right? Because there's no oversight. There's handshake deals. There was a great tweet from, I think it was Trill Withers who tweeted this that, like, this is like a drug. Drug deal because, like, if it goes south, what are you gonna do? There's no regulators, so I think that's true. Right. Like, it's very obvious here that the biggest villains, if you are, is the ncaa because they have created this world where things like this happen. But my question for you guys is like, do you think that a. This is just gonna keep happening? Is there anything about this that you do find surprising? And, like, you know, like, Sluka himself, like, I mean, I feel really bad for him in all of this, you know, I just feel like he's like, kind of the biggest loser here in some way. I mean, OB teammates are. And that's the fault of the program potentially. But I feel really, really, like, just crappy about how all this shook out. And, like, it just feels like, yeah, like, if it does keep happening, we're going to see more really bummer stories like this.
- [35:17]
Pablo Torre
So a couple of things, Dave, that I found interesting about this was that of course, I had no idea who Matthew Sluka was before this story. And I think that is going to be his legacy in a way that Mina is sort of alluding to, which is that now we know nationally that kids that players, college players will actually do this, you know, like, with this sort of level of explicit. This is why. This is the case that I'm trying to make. This is how I got over. And this is why, despite being the quarterback of a three and OH team, I'm going to redshirt myself and take myself out of the season and demand out. And so the other bit of context here, I think that's worthwhile and interesting because I never really thought about this red shirting rules is that the rule is if you play four or fewer games, you can be red shirted. And of course that means that you are sidelined for the rest of the season, but you preserve your eligibility such that you continue to play college football as if this season never happened. And typically, of course, this was what coaches would do to players. Like, players wouldn't sort of do this to themselves in this way until the rules around nil and transferring, the transfer portal specifically changed. And so now we have a kid who has done this and it's just now a weapon that again, is being used in a different direction in ways that the people who made the rules did not foresee. And of course, this is because there are no contracts. This is not a job, despite being a job. There is no regulator, as Mina said, despite needing regulation. And so you have battles about leverage. And this is. This device. Redshirting is now a new or it's an old, new mechanism.
- [37:01]
David Dennis Jr.
What Sluka did obviously puts UNLV in a bind, but UNLV and these schools are more, you know, they have more at their disposal to combat this going forward. Like, even though he put them in a bind, they have a good backup quarterback. They got this guy from Jackson State who's a decent backup quarterback. And so what I'm fearing is that we're going to have the last week in September, first week in October be like the game of chicken weekend, right? Where it's like, we're going into week four and the school says no because. Because this is not. This was not Sluka, obviously. This was not Sluka's first act. Like, first boot. Like, he didn't jump from like, where's my money? To I'm out of here. Like, there was a lot of steps in the way and we're going to look at his year and his. The rest of his career, right? And say, hey, maybe this dude never gets picked up. Maybe he doesn't play anywhere else. Maybe this is like just a bad end to his career. And next year, going into week four, you have these Schools staring down their quarterback, staring down the running back, who's looking at maybe their last chance at $200,000 a year before they go into the job market or maybe even the chance to get drafted. And they say, all right, I'm not giving you your money. What are you going to do about it? Or a school or a player being like, I'm out of here. What are you going to do about it? And we're playing this game of chicken up until week four on Saturdays, and it's adding another layer of wild, wild westness to a wild, wild west.
- [38:25]
Mina Kimes
What I find so jarring about this, other than everything we've discussed, is the, like, relatively low amount of money we're talking about here. Right? I think that's what's. So where you and lv, like, you look at them and you're like, really, guys? Right? Because I, like David said, I assume there was some back and forth, even, first of all, even a hundred thousand dollars for a quarterback, you know, yes, they're not in the SEC or whatever. But that is, I'm telling you, like, the RI on that is clearly worth it if your team is going to be contending. The amount of excitement, I mean, you know, the amount. Let's just put it this way, the amount of money that the quarterbacks who play for the big programs are getting makes that look like absolute chump change right now. Where it becomes strategically more complex is if a quarterback is like, you paid me, like, $300,000 and we're winning a lot, I actually want 500. I don't maybe, like, in that hypothetical, then you would actually have some reasonable push back and forth. But this, to me, like, they unlv screwed up big time because this is not a lot of money and they absolutely lost. And maybe, you know, they're back. A quarterback who David said is good maybe comes out and he keeps this thing going. And. And maybe they do end up winning here. But I feel like this was such an unnecessary risk on this part given the amount of money at stake.
- [39:45]
Pablo Torre
Look, I think you're right, Mina, to say, like, the bottom line in all of this is if you want to solve this problem, the reason why we're struggling with this, the reason why we don't think there's an end to this, is because there is no paperwork, because these are not contracts. And so to get the contracts, you got to collectively bargain, which means they're employees, which means that, okay, did you guys really want to do this? But to me, I get. I. David, I do get why? If you're a college coach, you are worried, like, oh, wait a minute, is my player now going to ask for a midseason raise and then stop playing? Because. Because he outperformed his contract because there is no contract. And that I. I get it. That sucks. That objectively does suck for that team.
- [40:30]
David Dennis Jr.
I think if there's anything that we know about these colleges, coaches and these programs is that they are going to spend the, like, energy that they could have spent just paying players, figuring out ways to screw players over, right? So, like, what I think is most likely to happen, like, Sluka's leverage now is gone. Like, he red shirted this year. He's not gonna red shirt again. Like, you have a freshman, you're not gonna redshirt. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you could have. We can do this thing on week four of one year and you say you're red shirting next year. What are you going to do? Right? You got to come back to, you know, the altar of college football at some point because you have to play eventually, right? And so, yeah, I think what's most likely to happen as a coach, no, a coach is not going to want to lose his star quarterback or his star running back, but what I imagine they're going to do is probably try to load up with two star quarterbacks or two star running back so that you could, could get this guy out. Like, this guy wants to leave. I will get a marginally, like a little bit worse guy behind him and see what I can do in terms of replacing him and make them feel like the easiest solution is just pay. Like n said, pay the guy $100,000. But it's so baked into college football to, like, screw players over that that doesn't even come into their mind to just, like, give a kid what he wants. It's like, I'm going to find a way to make his life worse.
- [41:43]
Mina Kimes
Well, good luck finding two good college quarterbacks. I'll just say that is pretty hard out there. Let me ask you guys a question because, you know, we all agree, right? Like, this is. I think we'. Unless this, you know, he is dramatically lying and the deal was never offered. I think we all side with the player here. We all agree that the NCAA is the true villain of the story. Yada, yada, yada. Where would be the tipping point where you don't side with the player? Right? Because Pablo introduced the concept of, like, the slippery slope that the coaches and the pro. What would be a point where if a player Was like, nah, I'm good, I'm out. Where you'd actually look at this and be. And think, wow, it's kind of not cool and you're kind of screwing over your teammates. And like, would it be, for example, let's say it's like a bigger program, players offered $500,000 and he's like, nah, I think I deserve more based on my play and I'm gonna leave my team. Like, would you then.
- [42:35]
Pablo Torre
Well, let me, let me introduce an even more sort of like thorny hypothetical, right? So we've seen versions of thorny hypotheticals before where it's like players sitting on bowl games because they prioritize their health, right? And so that's a familiar debate. But what if, what if behind the scenes, quietly, another school was like, hey, we'll pay you twice what you're making right now next year to stop playing this season.
- [43:01]
Mina Kimes
I mean, take it.
- [43:02]
Pablo Torre
But at that point you're like actively, you're actively undermining, like paying a kid to betray his team in the present. And you're basically saying, I mean, this is what I, I'm like, where would I turn on the kid? I'm like, that feels up.
- [43:19]
David Dennis Jr.
What is the goal of college sports? Right? Like, the goal of college sports is to like make as much money as an individual player, right? Like the, the teammates, like the teammate thing is something that the fans and the school have like created to make you feel like you're part of something bigger. But like nobody cares about the collective right of the play. You know what I'm saying? Like the, like your goal as a college player like this. Sluka's gone from unlv, right? But if they, I don't know what their recruitment or their five, their, their prospects there, but if I'm a five star linebacker at unlv, I'm not sure I give a. That Sluk is gone because I'm still going to be a five star LB linebacker who is going to be fine. When you look at the, when you break down like the footage and I get my, my NFL contract or I go into the draft or whatever, like, I'm not sure if I should as a player, me maybe because I'm old. Like, if I'm thinking about going into a team, I'm not sure if I care about waving the flag of UNLV or any school as much as I care about myself. And I'm not sure if Sluka leaves unless I'm a receiver. That's, that's maybe something different.
- [44:26]
Mina Kimes
Yeah, yeah. I think this is where I'm going to say the, the weed in Blake card might actually be applicable here because I just know talking with players, like they do care and they would be very upset and they would feel like betrayed. And there is like a level of like, wow, you're. And you know, this comes up with the bowl game stuff. And I think the players basic conversations I've had, like, do they understand if guys go into the NFL and he's a bowl game, you're not. I have felt most part players do empathize with that, whatever. But I think if we were talking about a situation as one is dramatic as the one we're describing where a guy just totally quits on the team, players would be mad, man. Like, they would be mad. But I'll say this too. I don't think that hypothetical happens because I think or is unlikely to happen because I think the situations like Sluka are going to be mostly involving players who do not have NFL prospects. Right, right. Where. Where you play doesn't matter as much where you're not trying to. You know what I mean, like to like for like a true prospect. Your college career is about optimizing your ability to be drafted, to be drafted high to impress NFL teams, all of that. That's a tiny minority of college football players that we're talking about. A guy like Sluka is the perfect case study for this because he's a guy who did play, by the way, four years at one program. So you can't accuse him of being a mercenary. And saw this is my opportunity to actually make some money to earn a living because he know he's not going to play in the NFL. Right. And there are a lot of guys like that. They're not going to be paid, you know, the $500,000 or whatever. This is like the exact sweet spot where this kind of thing happens, I think.
- [46:07]
Pablo Torre
So I've called up noted jock Dominique Foxworth to be our athlete voice here. Three of us nerds, we need, we need you to be football guy for us. In hypothetical locker room A, a quarterback has decided to transfer to redshirt and then transfer because another school, locker room B, is offering him a way better contract. The season is underway. You may, you may now get the sense of what, what real life example we're referring to. You're a teammate of this player in locker room A. How are you feeling upon learning that this is happening? And I think it depends on the person. It depends on the player. That's what it really comes down to what you're saying. What you're saying is that, like a guy.
- [46:52]
David Dennis Jr.
Then we're going to pretend like the.
- [46:53]
Pablo Torre
Reason why like him is because he did this. But it's actually we don't. With him. Wait, wait.
- [46:58]
David Dennis Jr.
That we really, like, does some shit. We're like, that's my dog.
- [47:01]
Pablo Torre
Like, we've stood by guys for much.
- [47:03]
David Dennis Jr.
More heinous things than trying to get paid.
- [47:05]
Mina Kimes
Yeah. When they're on their team.
- [47:06]
David Dennis Jr.
Like your relationship.
- [47:08]
Pablo Torre
So what Dominique is saying is that if you would attend this kid's birthday party, you would support him in what he does. If not this kid, you're. You're a traitor.
- [47:19]
Mina Kimes
Did he hang up on you?
- [47:22]
Pablo Torre
That's what I'm saying. Are you talking or something?
- [47:24]
David Dennis Jr.
Should I be talking?
- [47:25]
Pablo Torre
Yeah, they've been talking this whole time. By the way, do you know what day it is today?
- [47:32]
Mina Kimes
Nobody knows it's your birthday.
- [47:35]
David Dennis Jr.
Oh, is it somebody's birthday?
- [47:37]
Pablo Torre
God damn it. Goodbye, Dominique. Goodbye. Happy birthday. Oh, foreign. Well, we've been judge judied by Dominique, and I want to know what we found out today after an episode that is full of childhood and arrested development for lots of U.S. adults. David, what did you find out at the end of Pablo Torre finds out a show about us finding out stuff?
- [48:15]
David Dennis Jr.
I found out like six different people's actual birthdays, which is really cool. That's awesome. I've updated my calendar accordingly, and I think that we should all throw a party. We should all throw. You two should throw a joint birthday party. That's the thing that makes the most sense.
- [48:30]
Mina Kimes
I've found out that somebody should make David a Wikipedia page. I know he doesn't want one, but if you're listening to this and you feel like creating one, I'll have some suggestions. Get at me.
- [48:41]
Pablo Torre
God. You know, it does remind me, though, to David's suggestion. A Wikipedia page. Worthy protagonist. David Dennis Jr. Having a good suggestion. My first memory of Mina, actually, now that I think about it, it was Mina's birthday party. Oh, Williamsburg naturally would have been. And I believe she was pretty drunk. And there was like, at some point a cheers that we did. And Mina was like, to journalism.
- [49:08]
Mina Kimes
Also, why would that be the first.
- [49:09]
Pablo Torre
Memory that did actually happen if you're.
- [49:11]
Mina Kimes
At my birthday party? It doesn't even make sense. I mean, right? This is. Doesn't even.
- [49:14]
David Dennis Jr.
Was it a friend of a friend? Was Pablo a friend of a friend that became friends? Was that the.
- [49:18]
Mina Kimes
Why I wouldn't have invited you to my birthday party if we weren't already friends.
- [49:26]
Pablo Torre
Oh, wait, a minute. Maybe that was me. Maybe I'm the person who was drunk. That sounds toasting journalism. Pablo Torre Finds out is produced by Michael Antonucci, Walter Averoma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Daywig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, neely Loman, Rob McRae, Rachel Miller, Howard Ethan Schreier, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Chris To Manello and Juliet Warren. Our studio engineering by RG Systems. Our sound design by NGW Post. Our theme song, as always, is by John Bravo. And all of us will talk to you on Tuesday.