Share & Tell (Dark Triad Edition) with Katie Nolan, Dan Le Batard, and Pablo Torre(s)

Summary

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Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode: Share & Tell (Dark Triad Edition)

With Pablo Torre, Katie Nolan, and Dan Le Batard

Release Date: November 3, 2023

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Overview:

This episode centers on vulnerability, ego, and self-reflection, as Pablo Torre, Katie Nolan, and Dan Le Batard share stories and experiences, culminating in each taking the infamous "Dark Triad" personality test (which measures narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy). The show blends humorous humility, thought-provoking psychological discussion, and classic tangents, resulting in a spirited debate about pet cloning, social media insecurity, and what it means to examine one’s own flaws (especially in public).

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Key Discussion Points & Insights:

1. Stephen A. Smith, Names, and Ego (00:38–04:37)

• Pablo plays a clip where Stephen A. Smith refers to him as “Pablo Torres” and, in passing, mentions "the fat bastards," sparking self-deprecating and teasing reactions among the trio.
  • Notable Quote [03:54]:
    “This feels good, having his sun shine upon my pluralized face.” — Pablo Torre
• Dan and Katie riff on the power dynamic in sports media, noting how being mysterious or forgettable to Stephen A. Smith is itself kind of an (inverted) status symbol.

2. Segment: Katie's Share & Tell – Pet Cloning (04:58–19:49)

• Katie introduces an Atlantic article on pet cloning, laying out the technology (ViaGen Pets, tissue samples, surrogate animals) and the psychology of wanting to “bring back” a beloved pet.
  • Notable Quote [06:56]:
    “Loss is difficult to cope with… when told that you can just delay the dealing with this a little bit longer, a lot of people jump at the opportunity.” — Katie Nolan
• A discussion unfolds about the implications and ethics of pet cloning:
  • Dan shares a moving story about losing his dog Nemo and the emotional impact of that grief, punctuated by a darkly comic moment described as “sobbing shirtless at a stoplight” (11:21).
  • Pablo reveals his skepticism about mammal attachment, comparing pet love to “the con of mammals,” rooted in his disturbing childhood experience with hamsters (13:44).
  • Notable Quote [15:40]:
    “Men will literally clone their dogs before going to therapy.” — Katie Nolan
  • The trio riff on the selfishness of cloning, the abandoned adoptable animals, and the dystopian science fiction overtones:
    • “This bereavement tool… It’s about us.” — Pablo Torre [16:09]
    • “It’s not the care that an actual dog with an actual soul should receive… [but] something recreated in a lab.” — Dan Le Batard [16:49]
• Ethical tangent: Surrogate dogs as “rental” birthers and customer complaints that cloned puppies bond to the surrogate (17:13).

3. Segment: Dan’s Share & Tell – HBO Bosses, Burners, and Social Media Ego (20:12–33:06)

• Dan references a Rolling Stone exposé about HBO executives (notably Casey Bloys) directing staff to create fake social media accounts (“burners”) to dispute critics and steer online narratives.
  • Notable Quote [24:37]:
    “Sending an army of people at the TV critic who’s now had an opinion about your thing… those people rattling at the mental health of [critics].”
• Pablo and Katie bring up “AstroTurfing,” referencing the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial, and the existential unreliability of social media:
  • “Most of the internet now… everything you see could be a paid bot.” — Katie Nolan [24:38]
• Discussion loops in sports world analogies (Brian Colangelo, Kevin Durant, Eric Lewis), arguing that even “the most powerful people” are emotionally vulnerable to negative feedback (27:47).
  • “The human brain was never intended to consume this many opinions from this many strangers.” — Pablo Torre [26:31]
• Burner Account Advice: Katie gives practical tips on making a burner seem realistic (tweet about bagels!), with comedic asides about her own fake Instagram profile (31:33).

4. Segment: The Dark Triad Test — Group Therapy (34:04–49:31)

• Motivation: Inspired by another Atlantic article, all three take the “Dark Triad” test, measuring narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy.
  • Premise:
    The Dark Triad, coined by Delroy Paulus and Kevin Williams (2002), identifies “social predators who charm, manipulate and ruthlessly plow their way through life, leaving a broad trail of broken hearts, shattered expectations and empty wallets.” [34:10]
• Test Discussion:
  • The hosts reflect on test questions and the self-awareness/honesty required to answer (35:29).
  • Wrestling with phrasing:
    • “I know that I am special because everyone keeps telling me so.” — Pablo debates his answer at length, then admits to "slightly agree." (38:00)
  • Dan and Katie discuss questions around being mean, the need for respect, enjoying attention, and being a “celebrity”—all particularly squirmy for people with public personas.
  • Notable Meta-Quote [42:49]:
    “It would be impossible to do this for a living and score a zero on the narcissism part.” — Katie Nolan
• Scores Revealed:
  | | Machiavellianism | Narcissism | Psychopathy | |------|------------------|------------|-------------| | Dan | 2.0 | 2.6 | 1.3 | | Katie| 2.7 | 3.6 | 1.0 | | Pablo| 3.8 | 4.0 | 1.4 |
  • Average for US adults is ~2.5 per category; Pablo notes his 3.8 is 90th percentile for Machiavellianism.
  • Group agrees that the test results are both revealing and slightly mortifying.
    • “I wanted to be an alpha in this test, and I wound up a Machiavellian narcissist psychopath who needs the approval of the bottom of Stephen A. Smith’s boot.” — Pablo Torre [47:53]
  • Katie jokes about giving the test to ex-boyfriends; Dan reflects on how narcissists can be abusive, referencing real-world relationship red flags (48:36).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments:

• On Public Validation:
  “The faint whiff of the man’s boot… this gives you orgasm. It’s pathetic.” — Dan Le Batard to Pablo Torre [39:09]
• On Pet Cloning Ethics:
  “The surrogate dogs that are birthing these clones… lease them from breeders and put the embryos, tons of them, into the dogs… complaints from the people who were ordering the clones—the dog is bonded more with the surrogate than with me, and I don’t like that.” — Katie Nolan [17:13]
• On Psychology Tests:
  “These types of tests…depend on the honesty and self-awareness of the test-taker. You have to not see the obvious… not answer as you idealize yourself.” — Katie Nolan [35:29]
• On Social Media Burners:
  “If you’re going to use your burner account to send tweets, you’ve got to make sure you also tweet about random other stuff. Had a sesame bagel today.” — Katie Nolan [32:08]
• Self-Deprecation:
  “As a narcissist who is Machiavellian, I am also a 1.4 on the psychopathy scale—which is unfortunately still the highest among the three of us.” — Pablo Torre [46:39]

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Important Timestamps

• 00:38 — Stephen A. Smith clip and ego roundtable
• 04:58 — Katie introduces pet cloning story
• 11:21 — Dan shares poignant story about his dog Nemo’s death
• 13:44 — Pablo’s hamster horror and “the con of mammals”
• 15:40 — “Men will literally clone their dogs before going to therapy.”
• 20:12 — Dan introduces the HBO/Casey Bloys “burner” account scandal
• 24:38 — The performative, bot-inflated unreality of Twitter/X
• 34:04 — Introduction to the Dark Triad test
• 38:00 — Test questions that trigger ego crises
• 42:49 — “Impossible to do this for a living and score zero on narcissism”
• 44:00 — Scores revealed, sheepish laughs, and group therapy ensues
• 47:53 — “I wanted to be an alpha in this test…wound up a Machiavellian narcissist psychopath…”
• 48:36 — “If you think you are in any kind of abusive relationship…go read about narcissists…” — Dan Le Batard

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Tone & Style

The hosts maintain a breezy, irreverent, deeply self-aware tone, balancing sharp insight with banter. They toggle between comic self-flagellation (“I wanted to be an alpha and wound up a Machiavellian narcissist...”) and moments of genuine introspection, bringing listeners directly into their moral deliberations and media-world neuroses.

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Summary in a Nutshell

• The episode dances through ego, insecurity, and self-examination, using quirky news (pet cloning, burner accounts) as springboards for personal and group revelations.
• The hosts’ willingness to publicly dissect their own flaws—on air, for laughs and learning—makes the episode both entertaining and notably unguarded.
• The Dark Triad test section is the beating heart, as each confronts uncomfortable aspects of their personality (and choice of career).
• The discussion is lively, probing, and accessible even for listeners unfamiliar with the hosts’ broader media universe.

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“We’re the good ones, the three of us. The Light Triad!”
— Katie Nolan [49:27]

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is. I wanted to. I wanted to be an alpha in this test, and I wound up a Machiavellian narcissist psychopath who needs the approval.

[B]

Of the bottom of Stephen A. Smith's boot.

[A]

Right after this ad. You're listening to Giraffe K. Can I start with a clip?

[C]

Yes. It's your podcast.

[A]

So before we get into the show and the topics that Dan and Katie have brought. And me, can we play this clip from Stephen A's show? Yes. That has to do with me, and I want to unpack it here for a second. Dan, can we play that clip, please?

[B]

We begin with Pablo's narcissism. Now, that was them on Pablo Torres, my. My former colleague at espn. Great guy, by the way. Contributes to Dan Lebard show sometimes. Got his own podcast as well. He's doing great things. Always root for my colleagues. And considerate. Not all of them, you know, not the fat bastards. I don't root for people like that. Y' all know the hell I'm talking about. We ain't stuttering. But I won't mention I don't root for the fat bastard.

[C]

Preach.

[B]

Okay, but most of my colleagues I root for, and Pablo Torres is one of them, so I wish him nothing but the best.

[C]

Oh, no.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

That's okay, though, is it?

[A]

I mean, so two things like he did on his show. He did the Marcus and Lars.

[B]

No, he doesn't know who he is.

[C]

He does. No, he knows the idea of him.

[B]

Well, but. But no, he's got the wrong idea of him.

[C]

A rose by any other name.

[B]

Torres. No, Torres is not to. These are not the same thing. These are. These are not the same thing.

[A]

I worked with Stephen A. In the C for years.

[C]

Yeah, your desks were very close.

[A]

I showed him a sonogram of my baby.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Baby Torres.

[A]

Baby Torres. Lil Violet Torres. To which Stephen A. Went into an extended monologue about how I remember this vividly, about how I will never care about anything else, anything else as much, and that I would one day like him, want to murder someone to defend my child.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

And now I'm just a. Torres Torres.

[C]

Well, look, the man deals with a lot of information all day, every day, okay? And if he gets an athlete's name wrong, he's gonna hear about it. But in the places where he can slack off, he's gotta, because he's got 75,000 shows. That's what constantly on Air.

[B]

This is what makes him the most gangster of all the sports journalism gangsters. He can get away with calling him Torres because Pablo is insignificant in his wake. It does not matter if he is Torre or he is Torres. He's someone working from Lebatard over there.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

He did get your name right. I noticed over there.

[B]

Yeah, Fat bastard.

[A]

Well, no, I was gonna say, we.

[C]

All know who that is.

[A]

Do we?

[B]

People thought it was me, and he had to come back from commercial break as if to say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not the Fat Bastard I was talking about. He exonerated me by saying I was his buddy. He would not call me a fat bastard.

[C]

That's right. I know who it is. You know who it is?

[A]

Oh, it's. It's. We'll bleep the name here, but it's obviously.

[C]

I mean, I'm not even gonna say his name because I don't trust that you'll bleep it. And I do not speak that man's name. It's like Beetlejuice.

[A]

I, for one, love.

[C]

Oh, stop it.

[A]

Is it bad that I was still deeply excited about this? That's the other thing about being in his wake. I'm like, oh, yes.

[C]

I'll tell you right now, this feels.

[A]

Good, having his sun shine upon my pluralized face.

[C]

If you put a picture of me in front of Stephen A. Smith and gave him no other information and said, name her, he'd go, nice girl. I don't. I'm not sure I. I'm not sure I remember.

[B]

This is why I'm telling you, it's the most gangster of things.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You, us, us, little. Us little journalists. Barnacles in his giant wake. Whether it's a Torres or a fat bastard or a Levitard, he is sprouting his wings. And he doesn't. It's the ultimate insult that we can all genuflect and say, yeah, he doesn't need to know your name, doesn't need to.

[A]

And now I just want to make it my voicemail message.

[C]

You should. Pablo Torres.

[A]

Thank you. Katie Nolan's.

[C]

Who's going first?

[A]

Katie Nolan goes first. Dan. Katie Nolan goes first. Today, Katie Nolan brought Katie Nolan's.

[C]

Katie's Nolan Attorneys General. Katie's Nolan brought an article from the Atlantic about cloning your pet. It says, are pet cloners happy with their choice? Is the title of the article. And it goes into. Basically, this is a technology that's been around for a while. We all remember in 96 when they cloned Dolly the sheep, that was big. I remember that being in my yearbook as like a big thing that happened this year.

[A]

Katie. That's literally the last thing I remember about cloning. And this story is updating me, really, from 96? Yes, that was. I checked out on cloning after that. And then I wake up to this story and am learning.

[C]

So you didn't know about Barbra Streisand? No, because that was an update to the story for most of us. She cloned her dogs in 2019, I believe.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

When we found out that she cloned her dog. So it's apparently like a thing. It's a cottage industry now, I guess you would call it. There's this one company that's the biggest facility in the US called ViaGen. They started cloning livestock and horses in 2002, and then they expanded to dogs and cats in 2015. It is expensive, it is not cheap to clone your dog. But basically they take a pet's tissue sample, they produce millions of cells from it, and then the nucleus of a donor egg is removed and replaced with one of those cells. And then the embryo is implanted into a surrogate animal, which will then give birth to an identical twin of the. Now, because surrogates are implanted with several embryos, there's about a 30% chance that multiple clones will be born, which means you're going to get two dogs that are like your original dog clones. Clones.

[A]

But why are they doing this?

[C]

Well, Pablo, I think you can easily understand that loss is difficult to cope with. And so when told that perhaps you won't have to cope with that loss, that you can just delay the dealing with this a little bit longer, a lot of people jump at the opportunity. There's people who say they have this unique bond with this animal, that they've had multiple animals before and they've never truly felt connected until this dog. And so if. Or cat. So if this happens to. If their cat or dog happens to die, they want to bring that cat or dog back. Which to me sounds like straight out of Black Mirror and is obviously not a good idea.

[A]

Can we. Dan, I don't know if you're familiar with viagen. You guys are both dog owners. There's a real Jurassic park ass vibe to viagen.

[C]

Yeah, they have promotional material. Should we take a look?

[A]

I think we should.

[C]

Let's take a look.

[A]

Today, ViaGen Pets has thousands of clients.

[B]

Who have chosen to genetically preserve their pets, as well as a growing number of clients who are moving forward with ViaGen's cloning service.

[C]

I'm with them through the whole entire process from start to finish. Give them updates along the way, and hopefully I'll actually be the ones to deliver the cloned puppy or kitten to the client. I manage the cell culture department. I'm the one that receives your pet's tissue biopsy samples. Clients will call typically, and they say, you know, I've got this dog and I've had lots of dogs, but this is the best dog ever. There's something special about this dog and so I'd like to have. Have another one.

[A]

The music underneath alone makes me suspicious and cynical about what's happening here. They're learning it with that. Yeah, that. That real friendly acoustic medical disclaimer.

[B]

So well, but. But it's easy. It's easy to mock, okay? But I really don't know how it is that people want to move around wherever their grief is to scientifically bring back something that aids them coping with losing something. But what is funniest about that commercial is just that those people, paid or sincere, are arguing on behalf of look, how sweet is it. It is that we are going to allow you to have a scientific replica that is soulless of the beast you used to love. Just because you can't cope with this like that as a commercial is uproariously funny by itself, even if you don't want to judge this.

[A]

I wonder, though, Dan, whether any part of you seeing this is. Is moved by the premise. Like, I know I don't want to make every conversation we have with you about losing loved ones, but I know you've lost a dog before.

[B]

Well, let's talk about this part of it though, because I don't know what Katie before Katie took on a pet at the beginning of the pandemic. I'm guessing having no idea how unholy those beasts can be to tame. You know, I. A horse, a wild horse in my house chasing around cats because we didn't know what we were taking into our house. Most recently, after I lost my dog in the funniest way possible, but and heartbreaking. And I think this whole thing is here only because Pablo wants me to tell this story and wants to tell everyone to see how uncaring he is because in the middle of deep, deep loss, Pablo said something to me that was so cold and scientific, that's to be heartless and render sort of me thinking that he and I should never be friends, really, because science over heart doesn't work for me here. But this is the short Story, Katie, because I want to get to your relationship with your pet. I don't know what your history with pets is, but 20 years I have a dog. A tiny miniature schnauzer left by my brother in my care. Wonderful dog, good relationship. In the last, I don't know, 18 months of its life were terrible for me because he was in a diaper and I was just chasing him around the house. He wasn't in any pain, but I had to have like the people with him if I wanted to go out. And still after that I hear like the clacking of him getting stuck in corners. Still to. To this day, he. He. One night, Nemo. Nemo.

[C]

Nemo.

[B]

So one night he. He start. Late in life, he starts to spasm. I'm shirtless. I'm trying to get to a vet at 2 o' clock in the morning with a dog that's, you know, spasming and about to die. I'm in my convertible, I'm trying to find an emergency center. I. The dog is spasming. I tell Nemo it's okay to go and. And he dies. So he takes his last breath. I'm sobbing shirtless at a. At a stoplight, sobbing because my dog is dead in my arms. But you can't see my. My dog because I've got the car door to my left and someone pulls up next to me at, you know, 2:00am on a Tuesday. And it's like sees me sobbing there, but doesn't see the dog and just says, damn Lerd.

[C]

Oh no. Oh no.

[B]

Yes. And. And so they can't see the dog. I'm just someone who parties so much that he's shirtless and sobbing at a stoplight in his convertible at, at 2:00am But Pablo, when I told him this.

[A]

Story, which was okay, I don't think I knew all of the details.

[B]

It was a heartbreaking story to me. And Pablo looks at me one day when I'm telling him how heartbroken I am, and he simply doesn't understand how I could possibly love an animal. And so he calls it.

[A]

Katie's crying, by the way.

[C]

No, I'm. It's laughing. It's crying from laughing.

[B]

He calls it Katie, the con of mammals.

[C]

Wait, what? Okay, well, that's because you've had a horrifying.

[A]

Yeah, you guys know my hamsters of his.

[C]

Hamsters.

[A]

We'll play a note here just as a quick refresher.

[C]

Still haunts my nightmares.

[A]

I'm a little kid, I'm growing up. I can't have a Dog or a cat in my apartment. What can I have? I can get hamsters. I go buy hamsters. I get a wire cage. I get a plastic spinning wheel, like an exercise wheel. So hamsters, what do they do? They procreate a lot. All of these hamsters are born in the circle. Spinning wheel, right? That's cool. Oh, a little nest. But you know what else hamsters do? Katie Nolan, Hamsters eat their young. So what happens? Well, the hamsters begin to eat their babies inside of the plastic translucent Patrick Bateman Ferris wheel of death. And what else happens? The hamsters decapitate their babies. And so you have a spinning wheel that they're still exercising on. So the wheel is still spinning, forming a literal death rattle of hamster baby heads that I watch every day when I wake up and see. How are my pets doing? The answer, very badly.

[C]

You've never had a pet.

[A]

Never had a dog group in an apartment building. Never had the emotional bond that you guys clearly with multiple animals now multiple beasts have felt. And so for me, I think of like, you know, I'm like, a bird can speak English.

[C]

What?

[A]

Like we don't give a about birds. You know, like, we. What are we talking about? We care about dogs in a way that is. Is elevated, pure. Because they are mammals. They remind us of ourselves. We see ourselves. We see them as creatures with souls. And. And I am just like, but this bird is speaking English. We don't give a about this parrot. So anyway, I gave a take. I'm not proud of it now that the whole prelude was timing was bad.

[B]

Timing was bad.

[A]

The timing remains bad.

[C]

Oh, so I have a dog. Her name's Myrtle. She's the greatest thing that's ever existed in the world. She's just bag of goo. And I love her so much. She's my first dog ever. I wanted a dog my whole life. My parents never let me have one. Now guess what? They're obsessed with my dog. Isn't that funny? But she's the greatest. I would never clone her because. And this is why, Pablo, what you were saying is interesting to me, where you don't think that they have souls, which is fine.

[A]

Well, it's not the same.

[C]

And you say that we only love them because they remind us of us. Which again, I think will be very interesting when we take a look at your narcissist racism test rating at the end of this podcast. But I would think you'd be supportive of cloning because to you, if they don't have souls, then it's like you should just get the same dog and it'll be exactly the same. To me, it's like if I were to make another you. There will never be another Myrtle for a million different reasons. But one of them is just that like the, the we built our relationship. It did not. She did not come to the house with this relationship with me. We built this relationship. And so like it's $50,000 basically to clone your dog. I think this is a very expensive therapy is cheaper than that.

[A]

Men will clone, will literally clone their.

[C]

Dogs before going to, before going to therapy. It just is like a. And look, I'm not. Look, if it helped you and it helps you cope or whatever. And I'm sure there are. You could cook up like two or three specific situations where I'd be like, okay, I get that.

[B]

No, but, but Pablo's cutting through and I'm sorry to cut you off, Katie, but I just think he's cutting through it and saying of mammals, this is the equivalent of a sex doll. It's not.

[C]

Well, that's, that's pretty yucky.

[A]

That's a take that part of me does. Does co sign admittedly in this sense, Dan, in this sense, this story, the bereavement tool, that is a clone dog. It's about us.

[C]

Yeah, this does feel self user. It also feels selfish because there's plenty of dogs out there that need homes.

[A]

Well, that's the other thing. Right.

[C]

Like so like just get a dog.

[B]

But that's a, that's the apocalyptic part that o animals that need real care, let's let them die in shelters. But then let's bring on these science robots so that you can have a coping mechanism that's not actually that the care that an actual dog with an actual soul should receive isn't something recreated in a lab.

[A]

And I also imagine too when these cloned animals one day in this dystopia get the ability to actually speak English like a parrot. Sure as they will, they will wonder like why the are we worthless to you in this joking manner. We didn't ask for this. I was born inside of a surrogate dog that apparently, like, they're not.

[C]

Okay, so that part's even crazier.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So the surrogate dogs that are birthing these clones, this is the part that appalled me and makes me feel better about like laughing at that video or, or criticizing this act in general. Surrogate dogs are rentals. They lease them from shelters and they fill them or no, from breeders. Sorry. So they, they, they lease them with an option to buy from a breeder, and they put the embryos, tons of them, into the dogs. And then the dogs give birth to the baby. They used to give the people who would be ordering their cloned dogs an option to take in the surrogate dog. But then complaints from the people who were ordering the clones. So the customers, they were like, the. The dog is more.

[A]

The.

[C]

The clone dog is bonded more with the surrogate than with me. And I don't like that. So then they stopped letting them also donate the surrogate. If we were adopted surrogates, if we.

[B]

Were to extend empathy to its most extremes, and I would simply say to the both of you, hey, someone who is sad is being made less sad by whatever this purchase is. How about we just let that person be less sad and not judge it with. With whatever we think about a soul or coping with grief.

[A]

I just feel like the technology on this, the reason it was jarring to me why I'm obsessed with this story is because I woke up one day and this was possible. And I just don't think that we have reckoned Dan, with the unintended consequences of a world in which we just do this. And part of me does think that we should just be giving people sex dolls.

[C]

Okay, here we are.

[B]

Oh, see, he did do that. I went where he wanted to go.

[C]

Are you guys having sex with your doll? That's not the relationship. This is Myrtle and I.

[B]

He. Look, he didn't want to say it. I will say it for him. He is a pet agnostic at best. And what he's saying is that basically your relationship with these animals, no matter how much you want to humanize them, they are basically the equivalent of sex dolls. They. For you to put your emotions. Because you don't want to put them in.

[C]

I hate this.

[A]

That's not specifically what I said.

[B]

That is what you.

[C]

My emotions into a lot of human beings. But I also love my dog.

[B]

That's what he implies.

[A]

And. And we should all have that, right.

[B]

As long as Brave enough to say it.

[A]

As. As long as we don't pretend that they are something they are.

[C]

Pablo Torres would say it.

[B]

They're pets.

[C]

Pablo Torres would have the balls to.

[A]

Say, Pablo Torres loves a sex doll. I feel bad about what I did to you guys and to dogs and to mammals. As a mammal. Can we move on?

[C]

Okay, who's next?

[A]

Dan?

[B]

I'm next. And I don't. He's insincere. And I'm just telling you that the things that he really thinks he's not brave. Not brave enough to say the things he really thinks about how humans shouldn't, shouldn't even have these relationships with animals because they're not humans. Like all of this is muted. He's hiding. He's hiding behind a mask. Pablo Torre finds out, but he doesn't.

[A]

Speaking of bravery in opinions, Dan, what do you want to talk about?

[B]

Thank you. I'm sorry. So I was reading this story and I Katie M. For falling woefully behind when it comes to just in general social media, I don't even want to keep up. It's a toxic fire pit and I'd like to just let it go and fly away and not be addicted to it the way that everyone else is. But HBO executives evidently were creating and there's a paperwork trail of, of trolls that they would go to shake the confidence of TV critics. Like instead of, you know, being confident in the content you're making, still caring in modern age because everything's high school. Everything is high school. No matter what age you are, your insecurities are going to show the idea that Hollywood executives would care for a moment what critics are writing so much that they would try and send an army of bots that way. I just wanted to sort of talk about what it means that these TV executives would care. What Rudy Marsky of the modern age, what a, what a critic that has no real power. Why would that affect a Hollywood executive when you're making good content?

[A]

Well, the story here is fascinating. It's in Rolling Stone and they have the paperwork, as Dan says. And I think something that we should accentuate here is the idea that this mattered to the most powerful people running the most prestigious television network, formerly hbo. Casey Bloys, the head of HBO at the time, was, he was conscripting not just bots, but like lower level employees to get in the replies of like Alan Sepinwall. Right. Noted TV critic, to respond to tweets that they had about their thoughts on like the show the Nevers, apparently, which is a show that came out near 2021. Nevers. Nevers heard of Same same. It was a Joss Whedon steampunk fantasy series.

[C]

That's why I'd Nevers heard of it.

[A]

Yep. And Rolling Stone's own TV critic Alan Seppinwall gave it a two and a half star review. And so here is a In this lawsuit filed by one of the lower level employees who was told, please go be a burner account for Casey Bloys, he was, he was told to tweet Quote, Alan is always predictably safe and scared in his opinions and just got into the mentions. And there is this pattern of this where this guy would create an account named Kelly shepherd. Ok? Kelly shepherd is a self described Texas mom and herbalist who would reply to Alan Seppinwall's tweets word for word, the things that he had been instructed to say. And it goes on and on. Like here's, here's one that Casey Bloys had literally dictated to have said. Quote, maybe our friend. This is in response to the nevers again. Maybe our friend needs to say what a shock it is that two middle aged white men are shitting on a show about women. Like just planting in a way to get back at these critics. And all of it reminds me, Dan, like it doesn't matter, but it matters to them. Oh, but it's not.

[B]

Of course it matters to them, but it's not just. Look, it's not just getting back at the critics because you're sensitive or because we all want our work judged in a way that's friendly and has a lot of applause. I'm. The part that I'm more interested in is sending an army of people at the TV critic who has now had an opinion about your thing. And then those people rattling at the mental health of Alan Sepinwall who dared to be a critic and now is reading that his mentions are sort of meant to bring the war back to him. Ok, criticize us now. We're going to bring something your way that feels like it's the real world, but it's just seven people we've paid to actually attack you.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[C]

That's most of the Internet now. Is that everything you see could be a paid boss. You saw it with like on a, on a, on a more serious scale with the. I'm afraid to even say these two names out loud publicly, but Johnny Depp and Amber heard that whole trial. Everything online was like a. What do they call it when you have a bunch of bots? AstroTurf.

[A]

AstroTurf thing.

[C]

It's like a thing now that you can pay people to do to change the online narrative in regards to your story. So. So it seems like you have a lot of support that then garners real support that then becomes a thing instead of just not happening that way. And it's like controlling the narrative. That's why, like people always say, you can't put too much stock in Twitter replies, but X replies you can put zero stock in because you have no idea who they are and who the, the more we're on the Internet, the more we're going to start faking things on the Internet, the more things are going to stop being real entirely.

[B]

Do people understand? I'm just curious because my parents used to tell these stories about how communism crept in. And it obviously wasn't technology, but it was these things. It was techniques to inflame propaganda from sides that would bring communism. Because people who have lived in freedom all their lives don't know that it, or maybe don't really understand that it requires unrelenting, unrelenting protection and resilience and that you have to protect it. And the way that communism creeps is just like this. With. With. These are almost military campaigns, really. If you can create an alternate. An alternate universe where people attack from all angles to just divide everyone on whatever the divisions of the day are.

[A]

When we talk about it's a campaign, it's a campaign not because it's just ego alone, but because they know it can make an impact. And I know it can make an impact because I am the person still checking my mentions. Right. Like, Dan, the whole thing about the psyop aspect, the reason it's a psyop, a psychological operation, I believe it stands for, is because the human brain was never intended to consume this many opinions from this many strangers. And so the idea that at the end of my day, the thing that'll stick with me is what this person said in my mentions, which still happens, by the way, to me, oh, this one person made a dent. I know it matters to Casey Bloys, because Casey Bloys, in all of this way is telling us it matters to him. His brain has been dented by all of these people, these commenters, these critics. And I should point out that Casey Bloys is also saying, quote, how dare someone write that? Exclamation point, exclamation point. I want to say something along the lines of quote, lol. Okay, they are just counting their Emmys, end quote. Or something like that. Exclamation point. Giving messages to respond to. Not a critic in this case, but just a random person arguing with the commenters, not just the critics.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And we've. We've seen this not just in entertainment, we've seen this in sports. Brian Colangelo's burner accounts with the 76ers.

[C]

What a day that was all time.

[A]

Great shout out to Ben Dietrich and the ringer for breaking that story. But James Comey had a burner account, former director of the FBI, stuff that he wanted to say that he could not say under his own name, Kevin Durant. The list is endless. Because the human brain cannot reconcile the idea that this person personally talking about me in public is not consequential. Of course it is to us.

[C]

I also think it reinforces this idea that if you have something to say, you can't respond. Bond. Like, the whole reason he felt the need to task this to somebody below him and to say specifically in the text, we need this to be removed from us. It can't come back to us. Which maybe don't write that in a text, if that's really the plan. Just a little bit of advice from.

[A]

Me across the board here.

[C]

Maybe just make a phone call. But anyway, very bad. It can't come back to you. It's like, it reinforces this idea that when somebody like me admits, admits that, like, yeah, I do check my mentions, and sometimes I'll mix it up with people in there, and people are like, that's embarrassing. You should be above that. It's like, look, nobody's above this. It's just whether or not you make somebody else do it so it looks like it isn't you or you do it yourself. Like, if this guy himself jumped in to replies, it would be a story. It would be a very different story. And this is like somebody trying to control the narrative without participating in it or having any of it reflect on them, which is impossible to do. So if you care, say you care. If you. If you care, don't pay somebody else to pretend to care for you. Get in there, mix it up.

[A]

There is perpetual ego measuring in a way that makes me feel. Dan. This brings us back to Kevin Durant, right? He's maybe the most famous user of burner accounts. Kevin Durant did, Katie, what you said. He went from guy using burners to defend his own honor. And by the way, we've seen an NBA ref, Eric Lewis, get fired from his job for having burners in this way because he was biased in favor of the Celtics. Allegedly. All that stuff. Kevin Durant is now out here just saying the thing.

[C]

Shout out Kevin Durant. And shout out to him our greatest Olympian.

[A]

That's right, Dan. I don't even know if you know this, because I think you're divorced from the entire Internet in ways that old people are invariably.

[C]

He just called you an old guy.

[B]

I mean, this protects me, though. He did call me an old guy. But this, this protects me, right? After a lifetime in the columnist business where I had 25 years of people just torching every opinion I had. Eventually I got to a rather strengthened point of like, okay, I'll take critics without it hurting me. If my critics are people whose opinion I respect, but not if it's just random strangers who don't know as much about what we do for a living as we do, then, you know, like, from there, it can't really hurt you. And then if I check out on social media, if I it, then I can skate free of something that I think is a. An addictive poison. Well, of temptations to reinforce that your opinion matters and your ego and identity need to be fed. Like, it scares me being too addicted to commentary of any kind, praise or criticism.

[C]

I like the little tidbit about what was in her bio. She was a what? She was into her.

[A]

Oh, yeah, Herbalists.

[C]

My burner account bio. And I don't use my. I don't use my burner account for anything other than on Instagram. You know how you can't watch people's stories without it saying, like, this person watched your stories. So I have a burner account so I can watch people's stories that I don't like and that don't like me.

[A]

Oh, wait. So breaking news.

[C]

My burner accounts bio is something like just a guy who loves his dog and craft beer. I thought that was a pretty good bio.

[A]

Pretty believable.

[B]

A good disguise, right? Is it better than Herbalist, though?

[A]

Is it better than Kelly shepherd at Kelly SH. 338-89-356?

[C]

That's crazy. That already sounds like a fake bio.

[A]

She slash her great mom, Texan herbalist, aromatherapist, vegan.

[C]

Oh, wow. They really went for a vibe with that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

If you're going to use your burner account to send tweets, which again, I don't, but if that's the purpose of your burner, as this one was, you've got to make sure you also tweet about random other stuff. Had a sesame bagel today. Just so that when somebody clicks on your account, they don't just see Alan Seppinwall constant. Because then they're gonna put two and two together. It's the number one. It's how they caught Colangelo. Like, there are no other tweets about anything else except this very specific tweet thing.

[A]

Another pointer. If you're gonna do that, maybe don't have it operated by a lower level employee that's going to sue you later for being asked to do this 100%. All of this show has been a natural segue. Towards a thing that I wanted to do with you guys that I'm actually afraid of. Of in a real way now.

[C]

Play Spider Man 2.

[A]

Love Spider Man 2. Dan has. Will never know the joys of video games on PS5.

[B]

Dan, I'm scared of. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I. Go ahead. You were pointing at me. I'm still playing Ms. Pac Man. That's a real.

[A]

I was going to say dan has a Ms. Pac man arcade machine in his home.

[B]

All right, that was unnecessary.

[A]

Like, is that invasive? Is that too much finding out?

[B]

Yes, because. Yes, because it's the lamest of the video games. No. I mean, it just makes me look the oldest. But.

[A]

No. You're in favor of gender equality among the pack.

[C]

Yeah. That's supportive. You're an ally.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yes. I like the game and I'm not going to apologize. And I'm also very good at it. And.

[C]

Oh, good.

[B]

And still shocking.

[C]

Does she move different than he does? Is the. What's the difference between Ms. She's just.

[B]

Got a ribbon in her hair look. It's from a different time. Stop judging what I'm doing. I have in front of me the results of my test, but I haven't actually been told what the numbers mean. So go ahead.

[C]

That's why I'm uncomfortable.

[A]

This is. Is perfect. So I'll explain what it is that we're doing here. I have my results. Katie has her results. There's a story in the Atlantic about what's called the Dark Triad. And this is a psychological term that was coined by the psychologists Delroy Paulus and Kevin Williams in 2002 for people with three, as per the triad term, salient personality characteristics. Number one, narcissism. Number two, Machiavellianism, and number three, a measurable level of psychopathy. Meaning you are in total here. Quote, social predator who charms, manipulates and ruthlessly plows their way through life, leaving a broad trail of broken hearts, shattered expectations and empty wallets. Now, the dark triad is a personality type that can be tested. And so I asked all of us here to take that test. It takes about two and a half minutes. Everyone should do this, I think. And so we did. It's about almost 30 questions. And it gives us the results on where on those three levels. Narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopath. We are. And I gotta say I don't know what your guys experience taking this test was before we reveal our answers, but some of the questions. It made me stare into the middle Distance for a while. Reflecting on what the my actual answer here is going to be.

[C]

These types of tests I always find a little bit difficult because they depend on the honesty and self awareness of the test taker. You have to be honest with your answer. You have to not see the obvious. Oh, I know that if I answer agree to this, I'm going to get a high score. You have to. And you have to answer it not in the way you idealize yourself, which I think a lot of us do. We're like, oh, I wouldn't care what others think about me. Or you have to sit there and go, do I, do I care what others think about me? And you have to ask yourself and then you have to answer honestly. So I think a lot of these questions for me, I was like, oh.

[A]

Well what Even through that lens, Dan, through the lens of like we're gonna say these aloud. The fact that we don't know how to interpret our own results is part of, I think, think why this is great.

[B]

I should explain Dangerous. I should explain to the people though, because as, as Katie is saying all that what she is bringing to the testing is honor in self assessment. And I'm assuming a lot of people would just take the test and try to win the test by I will not be a narcissist, I will not be a psychopath, I will not be Machiavellian because I don't want to be seen as somebody who is cutthroat. And we should define some of these things. Machiavellianism, yes, Restorative. It means you will do anything to cut someone's throat. Narcissism, you are so self involved, you care about yourself and very few others. And psychopath is self explanatory. So when you answer these questions, none of us want to be any of these things. And so there's a correct way to answer. But as Katie is saying, there's also an honest way to answer.

[A]

But this is the beauty of this testing instrument, which is again something that I've only taken, haven't really studied. But it's, it's lines like this, right? It's so much of it is about the phrasing of the statement. So it's a scale of disagree, slightly, disagree, neutral, slightly, agree, agree, five rungs on that spectrum of answer, right? And so when there is a question that is a statement that is quote, I know that I am special because everyone keeps telling me so, period. I read that and I thought about this so long that my phone went back to the lock Screen. I was like, like, how much do I actually rely on external validation to reinforce like in an honest way, somewhat agree. I. This is where I.

[B]

Wait a minute. So you're being honest. So honest with yourself that you're not sure that you like who's looking back at you. That. That these silly questions are making you think about yourself in a way you had not explored before. This. This silly 3 minute 30. 3 minute 30 question test.

[A]

I thought about like my mom encouraged me when I was younger, like telling me I'm smart and special. And I was like, wait a minute.

[C]

I did not think she in the.

[A]

Is she in the everybody? Like, do I actually have the confidence? Do I need. Why do I feel so good when people tell me that I am special? Right. That's what I was dealing with. And I think I settled on slightly agree. Yeah, but. But by the way, another question like, oh my God. I mean this one. Dan, this is. This is where it hurt me, right? I like to get acquainted with important people.

[C]

Yeah, you are a full agree. If you could do agree so hard my fingers are falling off, that should be the one that you hit.

[A]

I. If I could write in maximum agree, I would have had to for honest.

[B]

Well, what is that? Let's explore that for a second before you get into the results of the testing. Because when you need the validation of Stephen A. Smith and you hate to admit it to yourself, but you. And you'll take it as the validation. Even if it's Tor, it's a pathetic. Even if it's Torres. Like, honestly, the faint whiff of the man's boot. Well, this gives you orgasm. It's pathetic. It's pathetic. Like you have to have. Have more selfless.

[C]

You won't even let you make it.

[A]

You have to aphrodisiac ass boot is getting me horn. No, Dan, here's. But here's. But here's. Here's a question that I want to know how Dan answered in his memory. Right?

[C]

Dan didn't answer these honestly.

[A]

Here it is.

[B]

Well, I will say I answered it quickly. I was not pondering my existence as I answered them. But I also was not trying to win the test. I did want to know how cutthroat am I. Yeah, no, I. How cutthroat am I? I.

[A]

Well, what statement? Yeah, quote it's true that I can be mean to others, period. Noticeable silence from everybody as we ponder.

[C]

Oh, I thought you said you wanted to know what Dan would say.

[A]

Well, what did we all say?

[B]

He made me think about it. Katie. The way that I did the first time because. Can I be mean to people? Slightly agree, but I don't want to ever think of myself as. As a person who lands mean. So it doesn't mean I don't. It means it forces me to look into a place like I have to. I can't go neutral there. I have to slightly agree with that because too often, without intent, I hurt people and it feel like cruelty and I didn't know I was doing it and it doesn't exonerate me that I didn't intend it.

[C]

Yeah, same. I think if you answer disagree to that for me, that would make you narcissistic.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because that would mean that you think you couldn't possibly mean to somebody, which would mean that, like, you're so. To me, it was like, look, people have told me that something I have said has hurt them before, so I have to acknowledge that, yes, slightly, I guess I could be. I don't look at myself as mean and I try very hard not to be mean. So I'm not going to say agree, but I. I would have to slightly agree. I would have loved to click neutral or slightly disagree, but I'm being honest with myself.

[B]

But I want to be an empath. I.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I like to be an empath. And an empath would know. To admit that you're mean is to say that you have blind spots about you. You are not the most empathetic. You are not caring enough. You are a failure as someone. Someone who cares appropriately.

[A]

What about this one, though? I insist on getting the respect I deserve, period. All of these things, by the way, when you see them through the lens of sports, it's like, I insist on getting the respect I deserve is like the definition of, like, mamba mentality. Right. Like, that's what it means to be an alpha. It's. Of course I will get what I deserve. I deserve what I have earned.

[C]

The hard one for me was something about celebrity, when it was like, I want to be treated like a celebrity. And I was like, well, that's a tough one to answer because.

[A]

Right. We have.

[C]

It's not the exact phrasing of it, but it was something.

[A]

No, it's. Do you consider yourself a celebrity or essentially that.

[C]

Which was tough because it was like, I. In the guise of What I do, I don't. I know that I am the lower of the. But in the guise of the. This test, to be honest, I'd have to say, like, slightly agree. Yeah, but it doesn't take into account that, like, Maybe you. Maybe that is your job. Maybe that is what you do. Maybe you are that.

[A]

I think the point, Dan, is that the jobs we do are by definition blurring the line between narcissism and normality. Like, it feels like.

[C]

I think it would be impossible to do this for a living and score a zero on the narcissism part.

[A]

Agreed. Agreed.

[C]

Because there's another thing that was like, I like being the center of attention.

[A]

Right.

[C]

It's like you can't sit. There are situations in which I don't. But I also sit here and I tweet a link that says, watch me talk. So I have to.

[B]

You can't be. You can't be on television without having. I mean, no, there's nobody on television, nobody who doesn't like in some way to be the center of attention. You wouldn't use that as a.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

As a career. But when you say. It's funny. My answer to that question. I guess we'll get to our numbers in a second because I want to know what mine mean. But legitimately, I. The answer to that question is I wanted some other option other than the five because I wanted to be saying, well, I did consider myself a celebrity when I was on ESPN every day. I don't anymore. I've retired from celebrity. Is what.

[C]

Because it wouldn't let you say that?

[A]

No, that wasn't one of the choices.

[C]

Yeah, I wish it was.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Because I would have answered the same thing. Would actually click that same exact button.

[A]

Should we give some of our, I guess our scores to give context here and then we can explain them?

[B]

I don't know what they mean here. I'd like to know what they mean. So I got a. I got a two on Machiavellian. And.

[C]

Okay, I got a 2.7.

[A]

Oh, God.

[C]

What'd you get?

[A]

I got a 3.8.

[C]

Yeah. I don't find myself to be Machiavellian at all.

[A]

Clearly, I have been counter. I've been countered in that. Because when some statement like, quote, most people can be manipulated now comes across.

[C]

I had a problem with that as well.

[B]

Strong.

[C]

Agree. Because otherwise QAnon would. Wouldn't exist. Like, I think. I don't think about it as, like, I would manipulate them, but I would be lying to say that people couldn't. I know they can be. I don't use that to my advantage. I don't manipulate. But I know that most people. I mean, obviously manipulated culture thing a.

[A]

Scale of 1 to 5, and I feel like I answered a lot of this through the. This is. I'm defending myself.

[C]

Yeah, I think I am too.

[A]

Your Honor. I'm 3.8 out of 5. 90th percentile among US adults on Machiavellianism because I'm a keen observer of human nature, not because I'm actively manipulating everyone.

[C]

Around that holds up.

[A]

This is not going to exonerate narcissism.

[B]

Scores the way the numbers work just to explain it to the people. So it's one through five. And if you're close to five or you're 90 percentile, you are running very strong societally as a psychopath, as a narcissist or as a cutthroat Machiavellian person. So you were at 3.8. So the. On all of these. 2.5 is about going to be the middle of this. Of the average.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys are pretty safe. I don't feel good about.

[B]

I'm above average. On narcissism, I'm at 2.6.

[C]

On narcissism, I'm at 3.6.

[A]

I'm at. I was just a flat four.

[C]

Oh, that's up.

[A]

I'm not. This is bad.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Can we bleep these?

[C]

Yeah. This was your idea. And I don't know why I was.

[A]

Thinking you guys are going to be way more like my score.

[C]

No, I was shocked by these two, though.

[B]

I'm scared. Psychopath. You're not. You're not going to rate high on psychopath, either one of you.

[C]

I have a one. I got a one.

[A]

Katie has a flat one.

[B]

Katie wins. She's the least psychopath. I'm 1.3.

[C]

But look, it says one. It says. Looks like a zero. So is it possible it's 0.1? Like it's the lowest possible. Here's my percentiles for psychopathy are 0 and 4.

[A]

Katie scored the lowest possible.

[C]

Yeah, I. I don't relate at all. That's the only part of it that made sense.

[A]

Here's the part that sucks. As a narcissist who is Machiavellian, is that I'm also a 1.4.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

On the psychopathy scale, which is unfortunately still the highest among the three of us.

[C]

Yeah. Wait, Dan, what was yours?

[B]

1.3 was mine. So I've got. I've got. I was pretty close. I was pretty close.

[A]

Dude. I am. I don't feel good about any of that.

[C]

I don't like this 10 test. I think the test is. Is flawed. I think the phrasing of the questions can be kind of confusing. There were some that were negatively phrased in a way that made it hard to say agree or disagree because you were like, it's not the test.

[B]

It's not the test. That's flawed, Katie. It's not the test.

[C]

Well, no, it's certainly us, the host of us as well.

[B]

It's the host of finds out over here that is the most deeply and obviously flawed.

[A]

I just want to warn you guys that in response to quote, people who mess with me always regret it. Period. I slightly agree.

[C]

I disagree. There's nobody's ever regretted messing with me.

[A]

Watch the.

[C]

I'm an open door for messing with you.

[B]

Can't answer it that way. You can't.

[A]

I think this was aspirational. I think that one, they were like.

[B]

Yeah, Pablo, you, you, Pablo, you tried to make the test respect. You tried to make the test going.

[C]

To give me the respect I deserve.

[A]

I wanted to. I wanted to be an alpha in this test test. And I wound up a Machiavellian narcissist.

[B]

Psychopath who needs the approval of the bottom of Stephen A. Smith's boot.

[A]

So in terms of what we found out today, I think it's self explanatory. For me at least.

[C]

Yeah. I found out that I'm obsessed with myself.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. While also definitely being a person who likes to think that I am definitely not obsessed with myself.

[C]

That's the number one trait of a narcissist, is thinking you're not narcissistic.

[A]

Yeah, I should have read the fine print on this test. My wife is gonna have a field day with this when she gets my results.

[C]

Incidentally, I wanna give this to an ex boyfriend. Cause I think he would score very high on all three.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

I would suggest to people listening to this, if you think that you are in any kind of abusive relationship with a partner, go read about narcissists to see if any of the behavior speaks to people who would come high on these narcissist lists. Could Pablo be psychopaths? Like, they could be dangerous manipulators if they know how to trick you into getting into an imbalanced relationship.

[A]

Well, one in 14 people in an international population sample qualified as Dark Triad members. Thankfully, I think we did fall short of membership.

[C]

How? What does it have to be? Do you know the threshold?

[A]

I don't. I'm just going to hope you're just.

[C]

Going to say that feels right, what you did.

[B]

Pablo Torrey find out today that when the testing that may be flawed and the people may be flawed, they get together and try to win the test. We're good people.

[C]

We're good.

[A]

We're the good ones, the three of us. The Light Triad.

[C]

That's right. People have been calling us that. I've heard it in Internet comment sections and it may just have been a guy from hbo, but it has definitely been said. The Light Triad.

[A]

All right, end of the show. What would a narcissist not do? Oh, yes, he would credit everyone who was responsible for his success. So Pablo Torre finds out is produced by Michael Antonucci, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neil Lohman, Rachel Miller Howard Ethan Schreier, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Chris Tominello with studio engineering by RG Systems Post production by NGW Post a theme song by John Bravo, of course. And God, I am never going to hear the end of this, am I? Okay, I'll talk to you soon.