← Pablo Torre Finds Out
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're going to find out what this sound is.
- [00:06]
B
Oh my God, I'm so stupid. Can you help me with this?
- [00:11]
A
Right after this ad?
- [00:14]
C
You're listening to DraftKings Network.
- [00:27]
A
I. We. We should. We should say up front that it's Charlotte's birthday, because I was gonna pretend like we're running this later in the week, and so let's not acknowledge the present tense, but happy birthday, Charlotte.
- [00:37]
C
Thank you so much, Pablo.
- [00:39]
B
What better way to spend it?
- [00:41]
A
Charlotte sat down and was immediately complaining about the ways in which her body is betraying her.
- [00:46]
C
Oh, my God. Last night.
- [00:48]
B
Just wait, honey.
- [00:49]
C
My back just, like, goes into spasm and I was lying on the floor in a heating pad and then I woke up this morning, I was like, oh, yeah, no, like, I think it's a little better. And then I went to go for a walk and it was just like, shooting pain. And I was like, you know What? Welcome to 35. Welcome to 35.
- [01:06]
A
I was. I was in Amsterdam over the weekend. Oh my God, I'm back. Because I love you guys. And, and speaking of back, I carried with me two. I don't know what they're called, they're going to sound disgusting when I say it, but. Like two massage balls.
- [01:23]
C
Oh, like a lacrosse ball.
- [01:24]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just so I could plant them into my seat and lean against it, quietly massaging myself for seven hours and 15 minutes. Because that's kind of old.
- [01:35]
B
Can I tell you that there is a product that you're going to be real fired up to learn exists, and it is the equivalent of. Actually, I think it's three lacrosse balls melded together. I believe it's called a snake, but I haven't used it in a little while. But I bought it a couple of years ago because I have major back issues and it the equivalent of having multiple lacrosse balls for either that lumbar support, or you can use it against a wall, or you can use it to, like, foam roll when you don't want to bring a full roller with you. Traveling.
- [02:05]
A
You just described almost every Instagram ad that I get served now. Would you like more balls to put against your body? Yes.
- [02:15]
C
Can't we be.
- [02:16]
A
Actually, yes.
- [02:17]
C
Can we be sponsored by body balls?
- [02:20]
A
Can we be sponsored by a vaguely. Well, not even vaguely, just straight up sexual sounding device that you stick into yourself to make yourself feel that much younger?
- [02:30]
C
When you put it that way, I.
- [02:32]
B
Don'T think you stick it in anywhere, Pablo. It's Not a thing you stick into yourself. I believe that's what you just said. And that's not what you think.
- [02:39]
C
You know, like, pressing into this.
- [02:41]
A
Yeah.
- [02:41]
B
Oh.
- [02:42]
A
Oh, my knots. My knots.
- [02:44]
B
I would say against. I would say against yourself.
- [02:47]
C
It's a good distinction.
- [02:49]
B
What I would recommend to literally anyone is if you have any back pain, to immediately try to figure out if you can get to the root cause. Because I had so many other injuries that when I started to have back stuff, I kind of just thought it would eventually go away. At the time, I was still playing, like, rec league, flag football, softball, beach volleyball, dodgeball, like, all the things. And when my back started hurting a lot, I was like, yeah, it's just probably another thing I tweaked. I'll just wait for it to eventually get better. And that was not the right choice. So whatever's going on, try to figure out. Because usually back pain is actually a deferral of pain from some other part of your kinetic chain that's not properly working. And your spine is basically like a bunch of jelly donuts on top of each other, and there's, like, jelly in the middle that keeps that, like, allows your spine to, like, go up and down and, like, jump. And when all the jelly gets squeezed out, then you basically just have your spine smacking against itself. Just a bunch of buns, no jelly. So the longer you go without treating it, and the more jelly that oozes out, the harder it is to fix without things like surgery. So go to the doctor or eleventy like me until you find one that fixes it.
- [04:01]
A
So just to recap, you were the person telling me that my vocabulary seems too sexual.
- [04:09]
B
What was sexual about that?
- [04:11]
A
Why?
- [04:11]
C
Whenever the three of us do a show, it becomes, like, the horniest episode back.
- [04:16]
A
Literally every word you said.
- [04:19]
B
Sorry. It's because Pablo's surrounded by women, and it's a thing he's thought about for years, but never been bold enough to actually try these odds and dynamics. It's very hard for him to step away from the interruption of his subconscious.
- [04:33]
C
I just want to thank both of you because I came in here being like, yeah, my back hurts, but I'm fine. Feeling really good now. I'm like, oh, my back is broken.
- [04:42]
B
I.
- [04:42]
C
All the jelly's gone. I have no jelly left. Yeah.
- [04:46]
A
Not going to say it. So when we were talking about what topics to do on the show today, I sent a text that is the best encapsulation for how I want to start today's show with Zara Spain and Charlotte Wilder. Hello, guys. And it's. It's the text that reads, I'm gonna do Alpha Douche. So can we play Alpha Douche?
- [05:27]
D
You do not have to accept her rejection. I'm a professional dating coach, and I teach guys how to understand the female mind. Now, if you're one of the people that haven't applied anything in my course or my videos or anything like that, this video is not for you. This is an advanced technique. This is for the people that have the course, have my videos, and are applying it, seeing results, and eventually I'm going to put this in the course. I just don't have the time right now, so I'm releasing it now. You don't have to accept her rejection. Now, here's an example. Talking to a girl, and she said, oh, you know, I'm not really interested. And I. Instead of just going, okay, and then just turning that way, I did this. Why would you not be interested in me? I'm the best. Absolutely the best. And she's like, oh, how? I'm like, well, you'd have to come over in my house to find out. And you'd also have to be okay with kink. And you'd also have to be okay with my mastery of ropes and the fact I have multiple women. And actually, maybe, maybe not. Maybe, maybe you. You wouldn't be the best for me. And now I did turn it around at the end, but I could have left that part out and still got her to start bantering back and forth. And she did. She started going back and forth with me, and I started building attraction in that because now I had sidestepped her rejection. Granted, keep in mind, I didn't force it. I didn't say, no, no, you're. I just played into her little game. I knew she was playing with me a little bit or just kind of disengaging, and I gave her a little bit of fun. You want to know what I did with her later?
- [06:51]
B
No.
- [06:52]
C
Yeah, Absolutely don't want to know.
- [06:55]
A
I should say that I don't know if the song at the end of that video was a song that he, like, edited in or if that was just the sound of car that had pulled up next to him playing that song, because he is sitting in his car and it's a very popular tik tok now. And it's basically about how you don't have to accept rejection from women. And before I get into how I feel about this, just how do you guys feel about this?
- [07:20]
C
So my first reaction, Pablo, was That everybody knows guys like this. Everybody knows a guy who's like a little squirrely and weird and like all the hair on their, their beard and their head is like, all the same, and it's like, sort of reddish blonde and it's like. And you're like, what's going on? And. And that guy has two choices. He can either be like the goofy, fun friend who gets out of his own way, or he can become the worst person you've ever met. And this guy clearly chose the latter. But, like, I'm. I can't even think of anyone I know who's like that, but I know that guy.
- [08:01]
A
Yeah. Whether or not you know someone who claims to have a mastery of ropes, I feel like you guys have encountered people in that guy's coaching tree, either a predecessor or a descendant. And that's the kind of type, Sarah, that I wanted to like, almost ethnographically study with you guys, because I. I am unfortunately fascinated by how one becomes that guy, as Charlotte had described it.
- [08:27]
B
I mean, I think what Charlotte nailed is what I felt watching it, which is first, like, unimaginable levels of cringe and like, deep seated memory of being engaged with or attempted to be engaged with by people like this and how awful it is. And how if they just got out of their own way, found a way to be confident in whatever it is about them that makes them unique, even if it's their very dorkiness and quirkiness, if it's their mastery of ropes and kink, you can find your person that's gonna love that. What they are always doing instead is trying to figure out how, if they just better understood the female mind and tricked women into liking them, they could get the women they want. Instead of saying, let me look for a woman that wants me, and then just be myself confidently and see how attractive that is.
- [09:22]
C
I.
- [09:23]
B
It's so easy to, like, understand, but hard to explain to people who aren't naturally confident that all you need to be, all you need to be to get women is confident. That's it. In whatever. Like, look at the guys. You're like, how did he, how did he do that? How did he pull that off? Like, I guarantee you, that guy walks into anywhere just authentically and genuinely themselves in whatever weird and unusual ways that might be, even without being the hottest guy. And people are just drawn to that, that confidence.
- [09:51]
A
So this pitch that Sarah is giving all men on, on how to attract and even just be a person who can have conversations with women, which is.
- [10:00]
B
Win friends and influence People.
- [10:01]
A
Yes, yes, yes, exactly that confidence being the key. What's very funny to me about this type of person, which I should say has an occupation now, pickup artist. This is a pickup artist. There's a whole genre that is is now decades old about pickup artistry and what they sell. Instead of. Instead is this complexity that reminds me almost of how an NFL defensive coordinator might talk. And I want to show you guys. I don't know if you do you guys know who mystery is?
- [10:29]
C
No.
- [10:30]
B
Yes. Like when you said pickup artists, it again unlocked this part of my brain that sadly watched multiple episodes of the Pickup Artist starring mystery, whose goal was not to bring out people's natural and awesome uniqueness in a way that would make them confident, but rather to completely change them in every way until they could trick people into thinking they were something, something else.
- [10:51]
A
So Charlotte said no. Sarah obviously is envisioning mystery right now in her brain. And so let's show Charlotte mystery.
- [10:59]
E
So in the first phase A1 we open. In the second phase, we dhv to get iois. In the third phase, we get her to dhv so we can give her iois. And that's attraction. If you go straight into comfort without doing that, you will just go nowhere. There's no pickup involved. You're forgetting the plot line. So banter is something that some people think that, wow, I was in set for 10 minutes and I was shooting the with her and everything was going well, but it didn't lead anywhere. So I'll say, well, did you qualify her? Was she even attracted? Did you upload DHVs into her head? Does she know that you have had girls in your life in the past? Has she seen you with girls? Does she know that you're the leader of men? That you're pre selected? Does she know anything about you? If the answer is no, then you went straight into comfort and you got stuck in there.
- [12:07]
A
That is mystery or, or as I like to refer to him now, having just watched the video, the Dan Orlovsky of incels. Just like doing a telestrator on like dhv. So dhv, by the way, is demonstrate higher value or demonstration of higher value. IOI is an indicator of interest. A set is a conversation and it goes on. Right? Qualify. You want to call. These are words that I, I came to learn in another text message that I, I, I, I sent you guys. That was immediately embarrassing. Um, I explained it. I read the book by Neil Strauss called the Game and the Game is not the manual that Mystery and Alpha Dom slash douche are selling. But it is a book about them, essentially. And so the game, it taught me these phrases in a way that made me genuinely interested in whether these guys have figured out literally anything or whether this language they've developed is entirely something that is a scam. And. And when you're talking about DHVing and IOIing and kino escalating and all of that stuff, what is just important for everybody to know here is that this stuff has become extraordinarily popular.
- [13:27]
C
That is so depressing. I have a theory. I have a theory that the more people use acronyms, the more they rely on acronyms or on vague sentences that don't actually say anything but signal that they know what they're talking about. And you just haven't learned it yet. The more full of they are.
- [13:49]
B
Yeah, I agree with you. And I also think that in this case, when you're trying to commodify some that is sort of inexplicable, which is like chemistry, pheromones, you know, interacting with other humans, you have to give it special names, like what it actually reminds me of. And I know that I will be insulting plenty of people out there, and I'm very sorry in advance, but one of my friends got really into CrossFit and then wanted to become a personal trainer and offered my husband and I some free sessions so that he could say he had clients on his website. And some of the exercises we were doing were things that have existed forever and that I did in college, Division 1 track, but they gave them new names so that they could be CrossFit exercises. Like, one was like a Pulse Thruster or something, and it was just a body weight, squat, you know, it was like, that's. I. I don't think it was something.
- [14:42]
A
I like how all of these exercises get rebranded as American Gladiator. Like code names. Yeah, Pulse Thruster.
- [14:50]
B
Right. But I mean, that's the point is, like, we need our own language approved to you and expertise that will allow us to charge you for this thing that already exists.
- [14:58]
C
I think you're exactly right. I also think the, you know, the obvious part of this is that the clothes.
- [15:04]
A
It's his necklace.
- [15:05]
C
Well, the necklace.
- [15:06]
A
He's wearing a sun necklace.
- [15:07]
C
Sorry. The one thing I liked about mystery was his necklace. Necklace was a little cool.
- [15:12]
A
So that's called peacocking.
- [15:14]
C
Yeah.
- [15:14]
A
I'm kidding, Charlotte. That's called peacocking. That is a move.
- [15:17]
C
It reminds me of something I got on vacation, like in Wyoming in fourth grade.
- [15:23]
A
By the way, though, I get the system. The systematization of this. The idea that, yes, these are obviously like dorks and nerds who are yearning for some way to get anything resembling confidence. There is a fundamental, I will even say relatability on top of sadness to the idea of, like, I don't know what to do. Can someone help me? And then someone filling that vacuum with, here is a. Here is a literal book of things to do. I get where it starts, but what it. What it does. And this is like, both obvious and also, I think the key to so much of the Internet now is that you become convicted in terms of why your approach should work. And it turns the person you're trying to win over into somebody who is definitionally two dimensional. Like one of the. I wonder if you guys have even encountered this in the wild, right? So, like, one of the things that PUAs, as they are called, what they stress is a neg. Sarah, the. How would you explain a neg if. For people who aren't familiar with the vocabulary here?
- [16:28]
B
So nagging is actually this thing that I've seen in the wild, and occasionally it works on some people, which is kind of wild and unfortunate because I'd like to say mystery is completely full of. But this kind of, like, has some vibes that are useful.
- [16:43]
A
This is why this is interesting, this whole conversation, is that there's some stuff in here that is in fact worthwhile.
- [16:49]
B
Right. And with negging, what I think the end result is that that it infers some sort of confidence that someone has that might not actually be there. Because only the most confident among us would be willing to say something mean to a beautiful woman instead of just being a pushover who's completely adoring. Right? So they would say something like, hey, Charlotte, that's interesting T shirt. I think my mom has it. But you're still somehow still, like, pulling it off, right? So it's like kind of mean, like, oh, I don't really want to be wearing what your mom wears. But I look, it's this weird sort of like, I'm kind of negating you. Nagging. I'm finding something negative to say about you, but it's not full on. Like, hey, you look like.
- [17:27]
C
So what's interesting to me about this is I feel like these guys are taking little kernels of normal things and just putting them on steroids and growing them into, like, the biggest ears of corn that nobody wants. Like, teasing someone is a great way to build a connection with them. Like, it's charisma, it's flirt. It's actually called flirting. Where, you know, where you're like, oh, my God, like, did my mom give you that shirt? And, like, you know, and so. But these guys are taking it, calling it something new, making it seem like the man is more in control and he's doing it to someone instead of it being a banter back and forth that the woman is also having agency in.
- [18:06]
A
Yes. So that power dynamic, the control is like, the underlying truth of this, which is that they're typically. When it comes to a pathetic feeling guy and a woman, he's interested in a power imbalance in his head. Right. Like, how can I possibly be enough for this person such that they are attracted to me? And so people are using negs. Like, and a basic neg is also like, you got something right here. And they're, like, pointing to their nose, and they make the woman think that there's, like, a booger in her nose. So immediately she's, like, insecure about that. Right. So that's. Charlotte is a guest at the psychological op that this guy's being running. Yeah, this guy's been running. And then, look, I just looked up, like, sample negs, and it's like, hey, do you know if there's a zoo in Central Park? I get the feeling you spent a lot of time at the zoo.
- [18:49]
B
What? What?
- [18:50]
A
That's just. That's just a sample that I looked up.
- [18:52]
B
Why I would love to spend time at the zoo.
- [18:56]
A
I got the feeling you spent a lot of time in the library.
- [18:59]
C
Okay. Thank you. Yeah, I'm brilliant.
- [19:04]
A
This is not working so far. What I do next. All right. When surrounded by HBs, that's hot babes, you want to open the set. Kino escalate. And then someone. A wingman. All right. Corte.
- [19:19]
C
Wait, wait.
- [19:19]
B
Are you.
- [19:19]
C
Did you say keto? Escalate.
- [19:21]
A
Keno escalate. Does that mean, like, kinetic chain? I believe, like, this is. I. Why am I explaining this?
- [19:28]
C
Yeah.
- [19:28]
A
Why do you know this? It's. You are supposed to touch somebody in such a way that creates a physical rapport.
- [19:36]
C
Also, just a part of flirting if it's going well.
- [19:38]
B
Also my worst nightmare. Like, I remember going on dates where there would be an attempt to immediately put a hand on top of my hand on the table or otherwise, and I would just move away. And then I would eventually have to say, just so you know, like, I'm not really comfortable touching people. Right. When I get to know them. Like, I just want to get to know someone more because I, like, I want to. I want to say that, like, living in LA. Especially in the early 2000s.
- [20:05]
A
Oh, man.
- [20:06]
B
The number of guys I met that were running this playbook. And it was very hard to describe. Cause I couldn't just say they're like reading the Pickup Artist, but. But it was a feeling I had that they had a checklist of what to do. And if it didn't work, it was the woman's problem for wanting a bad guy or not liking a nice person or not knowing, like, not respecting that they're a good catch. Like, but none of it was organic or felt like just a confident guy hanging out. It was always, like, the same exact thing. Like, nagging shows of, like, value. Like, literally talking about their money or saying, I want to take you to go shopping for clothes.
- [20:46]
A
Yeah, they're an amog touching you. They're an alpha male of the group.
- [20:49]
B
Right? Talking about their alpha.
- [20:51]
A
They're not an afc. An average frustrated chump.
- [20:54]
C
Oh, my God.
- [20:55]
B
You know, too many of these. These better be written down in front of you.
- [20:58]
A
They are definitely not memorized by me.
- [21:01]
B
Honestly. Pablo, do you want to know the female version of this? It literally was like, try not to be too confident. Use baby talk. Especially in your 20s. Men are intimidated by women who are, like, partners and equals, so they want to date someone that they feel more manly around. So it's like, I'm so stupid. Can you help me with this? Like, you have to. I'm not lying. I had to in my 20s, like, just start acting like a dumb ass who needed help with. On my first dates just to give them, like, a second of thinking that they might be in charge ever. And once they were interested, then I could go back to my normal self.
- [21:44]
C
But I literally had a hard pivot. Sarah.
- [21:46]
B
Oh, my God, you guys. The amount of integrity I lost in my, like, pride in myself when I just gave up and I started being like, no, I don't know. I'm like, what? Just started acting like a dumb. Because otherwise I didn't get any dates. And it worked. It worked.
- [22:05]
C
Every time I went on a date my early twenties, I got there. It was like an Internet date. And I was immediately like, I cannot be here. He was not like, this guy. Basically. He was, like, very quiet. I'm sure he was nice, but you know when you just show up and you see someone and you're. And not even, like, not even what? He looked like the vibe. I was just like, I can't sit here. We, like, order beers. I'm sitting there. Just boring. Feel like I, like my skull is, you know, dropping through my body. And I was like, I have. I'll be right back. And I went outside, and I called my roommate at the time, my best friend, my Hillary, who we talked about in here before. Just going to bring her up every time the three of us are together. And I was like, I cannot be here. And she's like, oh, I'm sorry. She's like, oh. Also, our dishwasher broke. And I was like, say no more.
- [22:52]
B
Perfect.
- [22:53]
C
And I went back inside, and I was like, I'm so sorry. I. I have to go. And he was like, oh, is everything okay? I was like, you know, my dishwasher broke, and there are just suds everywhere. Oh. And then I left. Good one. And I think about him, and I.
- [23:07]
A
Feel a little bad because you radicalized him and now he is running.
- [23:12]
C
Exactly Y.
- [23:13]
A
He's mystery.
- [23:14]
B
This is mystery alpha douche guy.
- [23:16]
A
Wait, that dude has a as a sun necklace and is wearing giant goggles. Oh, my God.
- [23:23]
C
My fault.
- [23:24]
A
Be kino escalating more right now. All right, Sarah, what. What did you bring us today? What topic did you bring us as a palate cleanser?
- [23:47]
B
It's actually interesting. We were talking about the. The sun necklace that might be the membership requirement for these men's confidence groups. It reminded me of gravestones that used to have a variety of different engravings that struck us.
- [24:05]
A
J is already laughing.
- [24:08]
C
This is the most incredible transition I've ever heard.
- [24:10]
B
Back in the day. This is true. Back in the day, there were a series of different things you could get engraved on your gravestone that stood for things. One would be like a weeping willow that was less about the person who lived, but more about the people left behind and the grieving that they were doing at the loss. There used to be, like, a sun setting or a sun rising that reflected the time of your life that you died where you lost young or old. There was also different symbols for, like, mason and different, like, groups that you could have belonged to that people used to know when they saw your grave. If they saw that symbol, oh, he or she was part of X or Y. Probably he. Because I don't think women were allowed to belong to anything meaningful enough that you would get it on your gravestone back in the day. Probably just dudes, but anyway, the point is they're completely abstract and meaningless to most people. Now. If you go to a gravestone and you were to see something like that, you wouldn't immediately say, oh, they were a part of this group, or they were a member of this. It's lost to Us now. And what's now on gravestones that could eventually be the same thing hundreds of years from now are engraved QR codes. Now, I thought this was new because I saw this particular image on what was probably a TikTok that turned into an Instagram reel. Because that's how I see TikTok.
- [25:22]
A
That's how I contemplate. Yeah, the passing of time and human death is as a regurgitated TikTok Instagram.
- [25:29]
B
Reel that turns into an Instagram. And when you play the video, which I'm sure will maybe play here, although it's mostly visual, so the podcast audience won't get it, it zooms in and shows you what the QR code sends you to, which is a video of an older couple dancing and dancing, like with a lot of energy. It looks like maybe some sort of swing type dance. It's not a slow dance. And it said this was their last great memory together. And it was incredibly moving to be like the person buried there isn't just a series of numbers of when they started and ended, or a name or even a family or beloved daughter. They are someone who had this life and this was the part of their life that they wanted remembered.
- [26:09]
A
Can we, can we pause on this part? Just the idea that to me, back in my day, a gravestone was a stone that had stuff written on it that you didn't scan with a technological device. The whole point, the whole point is to convey a sense of like, ancient permanence that is not about this feels like someone buying a verified Twitter account so they can post more than 180 characters on their gravestone. It's like, it's.
- [26:37]
B
It's sort of like. So my husband and I have had this argument conversation for the entirety of our relationship. His mom used to be a funeral director and his family talks about death very nonchalantly. And oh, did you know who died the other day? This guy. And oh, so sad. Christmas Eve we went and got his. His body and I'm in the corner of the car, like, wanting to cry about a stranger and like, Christmas Eve, oh my God, what was his family, Were they with him? Did it were like, will everyone remember Christmas every year? Is the guy like that he died and he was in the house and then you had to get like. It's so upsetting to me because I never talk about death. It's something I'm working on as I get older because I'm going to need to be in interaction with it. But I said to my husband, he's like, It's a part of life. I said, no, it's the end of life. And he said, no, it's a part of life. I'm like, no, it's the existence of life not existing anymore. So it's not part of it, it's the end of it. I think I'm coming around to his side because it's a part of life in that the rest of us who are left behind have to deal with it. But what you're saying is that the gravestone should ultimately show you permanence and the end. This is all you get is their name and when they lived. And the QR Code would tell you that what you get after their death is still all the memories of who they were in life and that it's worth remembering and telling a full story instead of just wandering by and saying, oh, I wonder that we've all done this. Oh, 14, that person died. I wonder what happened to that person that they only made it 14 years.
- [28:02]
C
I think that there is a finality to a gravestone. Like there's near my parents house, there's this graveyard. And I would. I still do this. I just go for walks and I read the, I read the names and you see, it's exactly what you're saying. It's like, what little bits of information can I gather from this, you know, beloved daughter? And. And then you see the families and where they are in relation to each other. And I think there's something to me more moving and spiritual about imagining that and about knowing that those, the memories that would be on that QR code are in the heads of the people who love them or love them. And at a certain point those memories are gone. And that's okay.
- [28:45]
A
Yeah. I feel like when I, when I. Because Sarah now, now I feel like an. Because Sarah brought in a topic where I was like, oh, that's dumb. Sarah's gonna think it's dumb. And Sarah's like, this is actually quietly beautiful. And I'm like, but here's, here's why I feel. Here's why I feel. The way I feel about the ancient permanence I was describing is that there's almost like a democratic aspect to it. It's like the way that people had to be commemorated eons and eons ago is the same way we're trying to do it now. There is a constraint to the form that encourages, I think what Charlotte is saying, which is both an interpretation and almost a beauty of what can you say inside this limited space? Because when I admittedly am looking through these QR code headstones. I'm like, these are hinge profiles. It's like, here are my four best. Here are my dozen best photos.
- [29:33]
C
Here's me with the fish.
- [29:34]
A
Yes. Here's my representative video of me doing something fun. Here is. And it just feels like I want everybody to have that ability to be remembered the way they want to be remembered. And so something I love actually in the realm of the, of the dark and sad. But beautiful is, is the obituary.com obits that other people have written for their loved ones. And it's not like you submit it to a newspaper and it gets edited. It's just like here's, here's a bunch of paragraphs about somebody who really loves someone else. And I love that and I want that.
- [30:08]
B
Yeah.
- [30:08]
A
But the notion of like we're gonna replace the gravestone, we're gonna replace the epitaph with a social media profile is to me so anti what I personally want to imagine eternity to be. Sarah I agree.
- [30:24]
B
So. But here's one thing I would say is that we were limited by technology in terms of how people were remembered in the past. Because we did have at the beginning just memories and stories that we told each other. Then we had a printing press and we had actual letters and books and print. Then we had photographs that we could add to it. Now we're just continuing that. So you're seeing it as a social media profile when in fact what we're doing is just continuing the storytelling by using what we have now, which is video. And it's a complicated thing. Like a friend of mine that used to be a sports reporter kind of decided to move on to something else and she started a company that collects memories and digital storytelling as people are in their older years that they wanna pass down to their kids and grandkids. And if you didn't ask us all these questions about our life and we pass away and you don't know, here's. It's like when you can hire someone to write your parents biography with them. Which by the way I've also had friends do. And they always tell you it's gonna be like this many hours and then it's usually like 10 times as many hours. So it costs way more than you expected cause your dad has a lot to say. But it's the same concept. And so in this like. I get your point. I don't even want a gravestone. I don't think that. I again don't wanna insult people, but I think cemeteries are Taking up space that can be used for a million other things, including just like animals in nature that we're constantly taking out for our strip malls. And so I just wanna be cremated and thrown somewhere. But I also think that there's a real beauty in saying this was who I was. I'm not just these numbers. And the one in particular with the two old people dancing, like, obviously that's the best case scenario. I mean, what if someone decided that they were gonna make their own QR code and they were like me doing a line of blow backstage at the Viper Room and then having a threesome is how I want you all to remember me. And like, are there guardrails for that? Like, what if it's just a sex tape? Can you just make a sex tape your QR code for your gravestone?
- [32:30]
A
What if it's a video in which I'm explaining to men around the world that rejection is a choice?
- [32:49]
C
This sort of reminds me of my, of what I brought to talk about.
- [32:53]
A
Oh, what did Charlotte Wilder bring on her birthday?
- [32:55]
C
I want to talk about getting older and about what it feels like to get older. Because my experience with getting older. And I wrote something on my substack if, if you're listening and you be so kind as to subscribe, the wilderthings.substack.com scan the QR code now. You know, I think for me, I found this, this blog post I wrote when I was 25. I had the wilderthings.blogspot.com it is now lost and gone forever, thank God. As it should be because things should be ephemeral and. But I had this saved from when I wrote it. And first of all, I did quote F. Scott Fitzgerald, which I think as any 25 year old does when they realize he wrote more than the Great Gatsby. Something about, you know, the. The idea of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in the mind at the same time. I really like that. But when I was reading this blog post back, I was like, holy. I was terrified. I was terrified to turn 25.
- [34:04]
A
What did it feel like at the time that made you want to quote? Yeah, great literature to express how you were feeling.
- [34:11]
C
You know, it felt like I had this scent. I wrote, actually there's this sense of impending doom. Maybe because it means the excuse of quote, I'm just a dumb kid out of college who doesn't know what she's doing is no longer valid. And then I say at the same time that I'm kind of strike through Totally freaking out. I do know that so much of my life is before me and there's still so much possible. And what this blog post was, was basically me going back and forth being like, oh, my God, I hope that I'm able to make myself the life that I want. And oh my God, what if I'm not able to? And then being like, no, but I think I'm going to be able to. And. And racing against some clock. And. And as I wrote about turning 35, you know, every birthday since 30, for me, I have felt this sense of freedom. Like the age, it has not fazed me, it has not bothered me. I was so scared to turn 30 also. And I sort of realized I was just like. I think because of how our society feels about, you know, Wunderkins and, and 30 under 30. And the most embarrassing thing that I can say publicly is that when I left 29, I was really bummed that I was never nate to the 30 under 30. And then I felt this sense of freedom. And now I'm like, thank God. Like, thank God I wasn't. Because I was not the best version of myself. I. I feel like I keep becoming that. And for me, especially in this industry, I feel that the older I get, the more established I become. The longer I do this, the. The less withable I am, the more I can, the more I can be in control. I think in my 20s, I, like, didn't know that I was in control. I think I wanted to. I think I thought being liked was more important than, you know, forging my own path the way that I thought I should, because if I wasn't liked, I wouldn't get anywhere. And it leads to this sort of interesting feedback loop. But. But I do feel so much steadier than I did. And I look back and I'm like, oh, my God, your 20s can be tough.
- [36:18]
B
I don't want to burst your bubble because it may be different for you, but when I was 35, I felt exactly the same as you, which is I no longer have to try to fit into this expectation of 25 now. Oh my God, now I'm adult. Need to do this. 30. Oh my God, have I done anything to be, like, exceptional compared to other people? Am I young anymore? Or now am I just a normal person who has to achieve then? The problem is, like you said, your career now feels like you're in charge of it. You're un withable. You get to decide. I'm 43. I was you, and I was getting better at my job. Every day I was getting more knowledgeable, I was meeting more people, I was bringing more stuff to the company I worked for. And I started to feel what every woman in her early 40s starts to be told to feel, which is, you're gonna get squeezed out. And I was completely convinced that it didn't happen to everyone. And it doesn't. There are examples, but if you look across the media landscape, there's this giant divide from about 40 to maybe 65. Like, women get to be old, and then we want to kind of hear from them again, maybe. But in that way that we love, like Betty White or someone who's stuck around long enough. Gloria steinem. But between 40 and 65, we're like, oh, we just don't really want to look at you anymore because you remind us that aging happens. And we place so much value in women's aesthetics. Even if they're writers and radio people and people who are ostensibly not connected to their looks, we kind of deeply and maybe subconsciously associate their value with youth. And then we stop listening, and there's this giant gap of, like, we just don't hear that much from women of a certain age. And I hope that doesn't happen to you. But. And. And I'm sure there's plenty of people will say, like, my career stuff has nothing to do with that. But I was told by the women who came before me, just so you know, as soon as you get to a certain age, they're going to want someone who knows as much as you do in a younger body that they can pay less. And if she doesn't know as much and hasn't done as much work, they'll just say, ah, it's still worth doing. And I look at a lot of the people who are around my age and came in around the same time as me, and most of us have gotten shoved off to do other things.
- [38:32]
C
I mean, I think that's partly. Sarah, that's not bursting my bubble at all. That's partly why I wrote that. What I wrote, what I wrote right now of where. Where am I? Because. And I was very careful to say, I don't know how I'll feel in 10 years and in 20 years and 30 years, you know, fingers crossed, like, I should be so lucky. And I think that part of what I hope for is the ability to keep. It's not that I feel. It's not that I feel unwithable. I feel less withable, you know, And I think that's an important distinction. I feel like when the day comes where I am, where people do try to with me again, not in the way like I'm naive so they're going to take advantage of me, but in the way that I know too much, so I'm now a threat, so I need to be pushed out. I hope that I have the wherewithal to be strategic enough to navigate that as well. I think that to me is where I, you know, I can see it coming and it's more about not reverting to what I did before, which was still trying to please people, but. But doing what I need to do, even if that means I am no longer at the place that I thought I was going to be. If that makes sense.
- [39:54]
A
Right. Do you guys feel that then that like there's like. What's the way I want to put it? Do you feel like there's a less romantic. And I say that not in the sense of pickup artistry, but in the sense of like an optimism, A. A poetic optimism around what this is, what we're doing in work and in life is. You get that sense because you're describing a harsh reality that is like the antithesis of the F. Scott Fitzgerald quote.
- [40:23]
B
I think the industry is negative. My thoughts on aging within the industry, my thoughts on life are exactly like Charlotte. The older I get, the less pressure, the more happiness, the more confidence in myself, the more surety, the less I have to give for that doesn't matter. Like, it's all the stuff that when I was younger I thought older women were lying about. Like I was like, oh, they just don't want to get older. So then they're now telling us, oh, your 30s are great, your 40s are. And then you get there and you're like, oh man, this is so much better. It's you just that people pleasing and that worrying about stuff that doesn't matter is not there. So it's hard because I'm trying to reconcile now this like general happiness and satisfaction in life that feels like I know more about myself in the world than ever before while simultaneously fighting this unfortunate reality of a. Of a business that doesn't give a. But I don't think. But I think Pablo, like in general, the optimism, the hopefulness, all the stuff that is in F. Scott and in Charlotte's substack is. Is spot on for me. Do you feel that way when you get older?
- [41:28]
A
I. I am mostly thinking about how a. I am blessed with the genetics of Asian skin and God, God help me, because these natural oils do a lot of the work. And I also think about. Yeah, I look, I don't think I truly. I do not worry about my appearance, which is, what an amazing thing. Right? I don't worry about that. And I assume that that's not gonna. What I'm gonna be graded on, which is so vastly unlike what your experience has been and will be. And so is the world that we live in. A world of puas and amogs. But I also think about how vastly unlikable I find my previous selves while also having affection for them. So I had a blog, too. It was called Pablo.
- [42:22]
C
Well, we all had. Just unbelievable.
- [42:24]
A
Yeah, Nailed it. But Pablo was also on Tumblr for a while. And Tumblr was a place where you could do anything. And what I did was chronicle every single meal I ate.
- [42:38]
B
Oh, no.
- [42:39]
A
So I was that guy. I was the person who was saying, like, a picture of my lunch, and I described my lunch sort of awesome. That was every.
- [42:48]
B
When it wasn't great or special or.
- [42:51]
A
Even when it was the most mundane.
- [42:54]
C
That is. That's actually fascinating to me, though.
- [42:57]
A
And that. But that person I cannot even begin to relate to anymore because I, again, can't decide what to put on my Instagram grid. And I'm like, that guy wanted people to know what he was eating for. I was the definition of the thing you make fun of as like a millennial on the Internet, telling me what he had for lunch. Yes. In fact, in. In exhaustive detail for years. And I deleted all of it. I was like, I don't want anybody to know I did this. Not until a introspective opportunity comes along on a podcast that I host my friend someday will I ever speak of this. It is horrifying. And I feel like that every 10 years where I' Like, I don't want to read what I wrote. I might not want to listen to this in 10 years, because I just feel like I am changing in ways that I hope are directionally correct, but leaves my younger self feeling like less of myself.
- [43:48]
B
I think what you're also talking about is something that happens for some people much younger and some people much older, and some people never, which is the idea that your brain is not yourself. You can step outside and look down at it and decide to question why you're reacting in a way, feeling in a way. And a lot of people never do that. But it's like the biggest part of maturity for me is that idea of, like, if I'm about to react to something and it. It doesn't Feel quite right. Ask myself, why? Why did I feel the urge? Is it embarrassment? Is it anger? Is it like. And is that a feeling that I want to have? Is the person who I want to be someone who reacts that way? And can I choose to react differently? And you can do it all in, like, a second, right? Like, as opposed to letting your emotions or your reactions control you. You're in charge. I think I saw something going around, and I'm not going to get it just right. But someone said, like, wow, school's really changed. Because a teacher told us, a kid, that. Imagine that their angry response was a fish in a pond. You're not the fish, you're the pond. You get to decide that all these things swimming around in you have a place, but when they get their moment and when you notice them and when you use them, you aren't that thing that can't stop itself. And I do think that when you get older, that's a huge part of it.
- [45:07]
A
I'm writing down, are you a fish or are you a pond? Because that is a great opener.
- [45:11]
C
This is water. Another quote that most people find when they're 25.
- [45:17]
B
I definitely put that on my blog, for sure. I also put Steve Jobs commencement speech that was quoted on there.
- [45:24]
A
Yeah. Oh, I had a lot of that. Oh, yeah. Just a throw pillow onto which humanity's. Humanity's greatest cliches can be stitched.
- [45:33]
B
Live life, love. I'm sure at some point, I do think in this house we drink wine. I don't have any of those, thankfully.
- [45:41]
C
I cook with mine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. Yeah, I think. I think also there's a level of strategy with, like, how does this emotion serve me? And if it doesn't serve me, maybe I can.
- [45:51]
A
Adaptive embarrassment. Adaptive embarrassment is something that I think, Charlotte, you have. You seem like you have mastered it at age 35.
- [46:00]
C
What is that?
- [46:01]
A
It's kind of like ropes.
- [46:05]
B
No. Wait.
- [46:05]
C
Is this a pickup artist thing?
- [46:07]
A
Yeah, it's hard to tell anymore.
- [46:09]
B
Yeah. He's nagging you. He's like, you're so often embarrassed that you've figured out how to use it. You're constantly.
- [46:16]
C
Damn it. Oh, I hate this. I got got. I was like, wait, what? Really cool.
- [46:21]
B
Were you suddenly really attracted to Pablo and interested in his mastery of ropes?
- [46:25]
A
Ropes. No, but wait. Ropes. What did we find out today, guys? Here on Pablo Torre finds out a show where we find out things.
- [46:48]
B
I found out that you are surprisingly poetic about the continuation of a tradition, like a cemetery in a gravestone I would not have imagined you as someone who would find such beauty in the idea that regardless of the tools that we have, doing the same thing that they did hundreds and hundreds of years ago to commemorate a life is meaningful. And it was a compelling argument and it moved me. I didn't expect it from you. I also never in a billion million trillion years gajillion even would have thought that you would be host and talk about his food guy. I just mainly because if anything, I thought your cringeworthy previous habits would be so highfalutin that even you would be like settle down partner. And instead they were the opposite. They were incredibly dull and requiring no intellect, which is not something I ever thought you would wanna put out into the world as a representation of yourself.
- [47:47]
A
This turned into the insult lane real quick. Oh, you got neck started off, you got nagged. No, that was not an appraisal that I was down with. And then I just felt my pride in my former self, which I already said I disliked now having to like because a woman made fun of it. Which feels like it brings us back around to how we started this episode with pickup artists and how you get radicalized. What I found out today really though, the through line. I like to try to find a through line through the things we talk about, which seem disparate and unlike and actually are quite cosmically aligned, is that we've talked about three topics in which everybody is trying their best to be remembered the way that they want to be remembered. That is the beating heart of every sad sack dude who wants to attend a pickup artist boot camp. That is at the core of the couple. Who wants to be remembered dancing unto eternity through a QR code on their Gravestone. And that is 25 and now 35 year old Charlotte trying to figure out what adaptive embarrassment is. And I'm not being embarrassed by being called adaptively embarrassing. And I do think that in the end, like, far be it for me to tell you what your yum is. I'm not here to yuck your yum. Even if it's ropes, provided there's a legal context that, you know, makes this not actually criminal.
- [49:04]
B
And consent. Yeah, exactly.
- [49:06]
A
Consensual mastery of ropes. Totally fine with Palpatore finds out. But I do think that we are going to be remembered as far less than we we want.
- [49:19]
B
That's a very negative ending, Pablo. And I would like to posit that instead of being remembered for less than we imagine, instead we far underestimate the incredible impact that we have on every single person that we meet. And therefore our memory is much more about the collective feeling that we gave other people and what we did for them. So thinking less about legacy as an act and more about a continuation of acts of every single moment of your life, which is back to your lunch and just be in the moment and appreciate that tuna sandwich.
- [49:49]
C
I also think less about how will we be remembered when we're dead. But how do people think of us right now?
- [49:57]
A
Yes, I think you guys are both freaks, to be honest. This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production and I'll talk to you next time.