Share & Witch & Tell with Michael Cruz Kayne and "The Supermarket Sorceress"

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pablo Torre Finds Out — "Share & Witch & Tell with Michael Cruz Kayne and 'The Supermarket Sorceress'"

Episode Date: October 31, 2025
Guests: Michael Cruz Kayne (comedian), Alexa Rosian (aka "The Supermarket Sorceress", professional witch and psychoanalyst)
Main Theme:
A Halloween special where Pablo, Michael, and Alexa go deep into the world of modern witchcraft, myth-busting, spellcasting (including a live anti-AI spell), and why "witches" are more culturally relevant than ever. The conversation blends skepticism, playfulness, and genuine curiosity about superstition, gender, power, and the metaphysics of language.

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Episode Overview

The episode explores the lived reality of a "real witch"—not your pop-culture archetype, but Alexa Rosian, a respected New York City witch and psychoanalyst whose mix of humor and authority is as enchanting as her incantations. Pablo and Michael dive into:

• What it means to be a witch in 2025
• The rituals, rules, and social politics of witchcraft
• The intersection of witchcraft with sports, culture, and psychoanalysis
• Ethics in spell-casting
• Gender and inclusivity debates in contemporary witchcraft
• Performing a live spell—cursing "AI" for the collective good

Throughout, the show veers into the comedic and the serious, resulting in a sharp, weird, and enlightening Halloween talk.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. What Does a Witch Look Like in 2025? (01:57–07:00)

• The hosts (dressed, respectively, as a tree and a cheeseburger) invite Alexa, who jokes about not wearing the "pointy hat" or riding a broom—but admits she's wearing a Marie Laveau voodoo T-shirt.
• Alexa describes her unusual dual role: “I'm a professional witch and a psychoanalyst.” (05:03)
• She addresses the "witch as threat" stereotype with humor, acknowledging people's instinctive fear:
  • Michael: “Your personality seems lovely, but inherently I fear you. Is that okay to say?”
  • Alexa: “Wow. No, I’m cool with that.” (05:45)
• Discussion about authenticity in witchcraft: there are "thousands" of witches and "witch wannabes" in NYC alone, some with formal initiations (Wicca/Witch Queen hierarchy), others self-appointed.

2. The Origins, Initiation, and Types of Witchcraft (07:00–13:00)

• Alexa explains Wicca’s modern roots and the tradition of initiations—studying for “a year and a day” for each level, up to High Priest(ess). (09:30)
• There are “witch queens,” but increased organization often leads to fracturing. (10:10)
• Alexa shares her first witchcraft attempt: as a child, she tried a ritual to “raise the dead” at Jamaica’s Rose Hall, inspired by legend (White Witch Annie Palmer)—it “worked”… at least, in a way, sparking a lifelong interest. (11:15)

3. Witches and Pop Culture: Why the Witch Moment? (12:31–16:56)

• Pablo observes that “witches are kind of having a moment”—not just on Halloween, citing “Wicked” the musical. (12:41)
• Alexa embraces “the green-skinned villain who turns out to be the hero” trope and sees herself as someone misunderstood but ultimately benevolent. (13:00)
• She distances herself from viral “Etsy witches” and cut-rate spellcasting—when reflecting on a $16 Mariners curse-lifting, she jokes: “Perhaps she didn’t charge enough and that’s why the spell kind of conked out midway.” (19:58)

4. The Jets Curse: Witchcraft Meets Sports Fandom (20:26–25:00)

• Alexa recounts a New York Times-featured incident where Jets fans hired her to lift their losing streak curse. She clarifies that for payment, “you should always cross the palm with silver.” (21:28)
• The spell “worked” until the client changed the parameters mid-ritual (“wanted the Jets to win the Super Bowl in his lifetime”), undermining the results. Alexa psychoanalyzes:
  • “I think these guys are…the Jets are losers. And there’s something about being invested in losers and maybe not wanting to give up that status.” (23:04)
• Discussion of sports superstition: “They don’t need witches; they have all kinds of superstitions.” (25:21)

5. Inherited Witchcraft and Family Legacy (26:14–31:03)

• Alexa’s background: her mother, “born with a caul” (amniotic membrane), supposedly gave her psychic powers (“She just knew what you were up to—it was truly scary.”); her grandmother was an herbalist.
• Notion of hereditary vs. initiated witches, and gender dynamics:
  • “Men can be witches, women can be witches, trans people can be witches.”
  • Notes exclusion of trans women from some “Dianic” traditions:
    • “A bunch of real J.K. Rowlings over there…” (31:09)
• Alexa critiques the flavorless, sanitized magic in Harry Potter: “It had no…this is a word, ‘tam’, which means taste. No salt in there, no spice in there.” (31:32)

6. The Metaphysics of Words and Power (33:10–34:21)

• Discussion about words as spells:
  • “As Aaron—Jets quarterback Aaron Rodgers—once said, ‘words are spells.’” (33:10)
  • Origin of “abracadabra”—“I create as I speak”; affirming the power of language both in spells and in podcasting. (34:17)

7. Spell Ethics and ‘Monkey’s Paw’ Outcomes (37:14–41:59)

• Michael wonders whether putting “bad energy” into a spell can backfire (“like a monkey’s paw”). Alexa confirms:
  • “It could bounce back…it could mirror back.”
  • Intention matters; the psychic disposition of both caster and target affects outcomes.
  • “It will return to you” if the target isn’t “predisposed” (e.g., to harm themselves). (41:47)
• Alexa recounts refusing to cast a death spell on Osama bin Laden post-9/11, preferring to focus on wealth/prosperity spells. (39:23)

8. Live Spell-Casting: Cursing “AI” (45:13–59:14)

• Michael pitches: “I want AI to be cursed.” Alexa is “so down with that.” (45:56)
• Pablo suggests (jokingly) cursing his ESPN colleague Dan Orlovsky, but the focus returns to anti-AI.
• The group assembles a cinnamon-sage-mint bay leaf spell (“supermarket sorcery,” readily-available ingredients), folds a printed AI definition nine times (nine: “number of completion and endings”), and adds nine match heads (sulfur).
• Alexa invokes Fortuna:
  • “Oh, Goddess Fortuna, we ask you to protect the fate of mankind and to turn the fortune of AI. Cause it to slip up and fail so that it cannot harm humanity. So mote it be.” (57:47)
• Pablo: “May humans masturbate the old-fashioned way.” (58:19)
• Michael: “May humans reign over technology and not the reverse.” (58:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “When we do something good and we heal, we’re praised, but when the crops fail, we’re burned.”
  — Alexa Rosian (06:07)

• “I think these guys are—the Jets are losers. And there’s something about being invested in losers and maybe not wanting to give up that status.”
  — Alexa Rosian on sports fans and the Jets curse (23:04)

• “If you want to be a witch, be a witch.”
  — Alexa Rosian on authenticity (10:47)

• “Words are spells.”
  — Pablo Torre quoting Aaron Rodgers (33:20)

• “It’s not going to work unless that person has a lot of suicidal ideation…if they don’t…it goes back—return to sender.”
  — Alexa on spell dynamics and magical ethics (40:36)

• “I want AI to be cursed.” — Michael Cruz Kayne (45:44)

• “Oh, Goddess Fortuna, we ask you to protect the fate of mankind and to turn the fortune of AI. Cause it to slip up and fail so that it cannot harm humanity. So mote it be.”
  — Alexa Rosian, live spellcasting prayer (57:47)

• “May humans reign over technology and not the reverse.”
  — Michael Cruz Kayne (58:26)

• “Make love not AI.”
  — Alexa Rosian (58:55)

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Segment Timestamps

• Halloween Costumes & Set–Up: 01:57–04:40
• Meet Alexa Rosian (“Best Witch in NYC”): 05:03–06:36
• What Makes a Witch, Initiations: 07:47–10:41
• Early Magic Experiment—Raising the Dead: 11:15–12:14
• Witches in Pop Culture, “Wicked”: 12:41–13:34
• Sports Superstition & The Jets Spell: 20:26–25:21
• Family Heritage, The ‘Caul’ & Female Lineage: 26:21–30:15
• Gender, Witch Politics, & Critique of Harry Potter: 30:24–32:09
• Words as Spells; ‘Abracadabra’ Meaning: 33:10–34:21
• Spellcasting Ethics & The Osama Bin Laden Story: 37:14–41:59
• Live Anti-AI Spell (set-up and performance): 45:13–58:38

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Tone and Style

The episode flows with a combination of wry sarcasm, earnest curiosity, and moments of sincere awe. Alexa’s combination of candor and expertise dissolves many pop-culture clichés, making “supermarket witchcraft” sound both mundane and profound. Pablo and Michael juggle skepticism and respect, never letting the Halloween trappings get in the way of genuine inquiry.

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Conclusion

This episode stands out for its reflective, hilarious, and insightful take on what “witchcraft” means in a contemporary context—turning a Halloween special into a meditation on the power of ritual, narrative, and communal belief. The live “curse” on AI is both parody and, perhaps, an earnest prayer for a manageable future.

Final words:
Alexa: “Make love not AI.” (58:55)
Pablo: “I usually come up with some very clever sign off…but I gotta say, I think I’m pretty stumped.” (59:00)

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Recommended for:
Anyone interested in cultural studies, belief systems, sports superstition, or just looking for a profound and funny listen on Halloween (or any season of the witch).

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[Alexa Rosian]

The jets are losers and they're.

[Pablo Torre]

Right after this ad. Dude, did you order the new iPhone 17 Pro? Got it from Verizon, the best 5G network in America. I never look so good.

[Alexa Rosian]

You look the same.

[Pablo Torre]

But with this camera, everything looks better. Especially me.

[Alexa Rosian]

You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.

[Verizon Ad Voice]

Selfies check please with Verizon. Get the new iPhone 17 Pro. Designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever. Plus a new iPad and Apple One. No trade in needed. Offer ends November 5th with a new line on Unlimited Ultimate Best 5G Swears, Route Metrics Data United States, 2020, 25. All rights reserved. Additional terms apply for all offers. See verizon.com for details.

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[Alexa Rosian]

You want.

[Pablo Torre]

Black Friday prices without the Black Friday crowds? Lowe's gets it.

[Alexa Rosian]

We checked the calendar and Christmas is coming early.

[Michael]

$99 is all you need to grab.

[Pablo Torre]

Your favorite select 7 foot pre lit artificial Christmas tree for the holiday season.

[Michael]

And don't sweat what gifts to get.

[Pablo Torre]

Dad, because we've got up to 40% off select tools and accessories. That's how Low celebrates Black Friday. Early selection varies by location while supplies last. Can you explain what we look like to you? For people who maybe aren't watching on.

[Alexa Rosian]

YouTube yet, you look like a tree sort of. Yeah, a tree sort of.

[Pablo Torre]

That is a strong endorsement of this incredibly. Because I see the static costume.

[Alexa Rosian]

I see the bark. I see the. The trunk.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Alexa Rosian]

There aren't really leaves.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, I may wave my branches.

[Michael]

There does appear to be one leaf.

[Pablo Torre]

One leaf.

[Alexa Rosian]

One leaf. One little orange leaf.

[Pablo Torre]

One little orange leaf fallen.

[Michael]

Now, when you say they gave you one leaf, it doesn't appear from looking at the costume that you spent like a ton of money on it because it kind of be grateful for what you got.

[Pablo Torre]

The fact that it feels almost velveteen. Yeah, it's like a sat. A satin.

[Michael]

Yeah. Maybe it's Armani.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah, it says something.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, yeah. I'm wearing a sign on my chest, on my bark. It says no trespass.

[Michael]

It's kind of like a foreboding tree. That's an eerie tree.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And the yard of the house sounds like on top of the hill that you're not supposed to go to.

[Pablo Torre]

And on that hill, there is a studio. And in the middle chair of the table in the studio, there is a cheeseburger.

[Michael]

A cheeseburger. Am I a cheeseburger? I am. There's a big cheese, right? Yeah, I'm a cheeseburger.

[Pablo Torre]

A wrinkle on what our attention was.

[Michael]

Which was, I assumed it was a hamburger. Based on an episode of this show that I've done before and Many discussions about Mr. Hamburger Alonzo Hamburger Jones, the great comedian. Correct set issues.

[Pablo Torre]

What's happening? Oh, we forgot to turn these on.

[Michael]

The production value here is crazy. You guys. Spare no expense.

[Pablo Torre]

And on this hill, in that house, there are.

[Michael]

Oh, look at this.

[Pablo Torre]

Multiple producers. We're making clear that this is a Halloween episode.

[Michael]

Whoa. Boo.

[Pablo Torre]

Will we cut around this in the edit?

[Michael]

I hope not.

[Pablo Torre]

Probably not. Are you familiar with the catchphrase comic Hamburger Jones?

[Alexa Rosian]

You're gonna have to help me there.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, there's a previous episode of this show we're gonna direct you to. Are you familiar with the aspiration scandal involving the Los Angeles Clippers and Steve Ballmer and Kawhi Leonard?

[Alexa Rosian]

Wow.

[Michael]

No, that's perfectly fine. That just makes you a normal member of society.

[Pablo Torre]

And also, there's another episode that you can catch up on. We're not here to quiz you. Michael and I are definitely not here to quiz you.

[Michael]

Wait, is the tree something to do with aspiration? Oh, because the tree. Oh, my God, the keys. Damn it. Are we okay? Sorry. I'm sorry.

[Alexa Rosian]

We meet totally in the dark.

[Pablo Torre]

I think spookily in the dark.

[Michael]

That's really good.

[Pablo Torre]

Are we bad at co hosting or merely doing a thematic reveal?

[Michael]

Does the hamburger have to talk like that? The hamburger's not spooky at all. Cheeseburger.

[Pablo Torre]

Cheeseburger.

[Michael]

The cheeseburger, I think, is sort of inviting. It's kind of delightful costume.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. I do want to explain that Michael and I do this thing lately where the two of us sit at a table and we talk to someone who has no idea who we are or what we even do. And so could you please introduce yourself to the Pablo Torre finds Out audience by name and perhaps by occupation.

[Alexa Rosian]

So my name is Lexa Rosian, and I'm a professional witch and a psychoanalyst. And also, I'm not really wearing a costume, but I am wearing my Marie Laveau. Voodoo T shirt.

[Michael]

So she was a New Orleans historic voodoo museum.

[Alexa Rosian]

She was a famous practitioner of voodoo in New Orleans and pretty amazing woman. But I'm just an ordinary.

[Michael]

Which, yeah, I mean, that, that to me is, that's a paradoxical description to me. Every witch. I mean, I will tell you just off the bat, your personality seems lovely, but inherently I fear you.

[Alexa Rosian]

Wow.

[Michael]

Is that, is that okay to say.

[Pablo Torre]

That, Is that offensive that we are kind of afraid of you?

[Alexa Rosian]

No, I'm cool with that.

[Michael]

Okay, good. Otherwise it'd be a lot of pretending. I mean, you seem delightful. Just. I, I can only assume that when I hear the word witch, I have a certain set of priors about what that entails.

[Alexa Rosian]

It's, it's par for the course. You know, when, when we do something good and we heal, then we're praised, but when the crops fail, we're burned.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, right.

[Michael]

That's, that's pretty hardcore.

[Pablo Torre]

I, I, I, I do want to explain for again, those who are just listening and not watching things, you might be surprised if you clicked on this video and only knew of witches through the movies. You aren't wearing a hat.

[Alexa Rosian]

No, I was when I came in, but I, you mean the pointy witchy hat?

[Michael]

That feels like the most offensive thing that's been said so far is the pointy hat thing. I just sort of. I assume that was a caricature of.

[Alexa Rosian]

A witch, but I didn't come with my broom either.

[Michael]

Look at that.

[Pablo Torre]

That was my.

[Alexa Rosian]

There's no parking in front of your building.

[Pablo Torre]

In true, like, genuine appreciation. I want to say thank you for sitting here and allowing us to ask you questions that are going to be many degrees of stupid, but also, I think sincere. I want to quote from no less a publication than the Village Voice, of course.

[Michael]

Sure.

[Pablo Torre]

To point out that you, Alexa, were voted best witch in nyc.

[Alexa Rosian]

No, yeah, real.

[Michael]

That's. Congratulations. That seems pretty cool. What's the. Are there for something like that? Are there other witches that you're like, it better can not go to this other witch? Yeah, actually, yeah, there's some witches that you're like, not a fan of for sure. Okay. How amazing.

[Pablo Torre]

How many witches would you say are in, well, I guess New York City as our, as our current location. Let's just keep it to that. How many of them?

[Alexa Rosian]

I think thousands. There's many, many witches or witch wannabes. Right.

[Michael]

What's a way? What's a witch? What? I feel like I'm about to embark on a tongue twister by accident. What makes a witch A witch. Want to be? Why couldn't you be? If you want to be a witch, why couldn't. If you want to be a witch, why wouldn't you be a witch?

[Alexa Rosian]

So there's. There's a lot of different theories about that. Like, when I was younger, I went through a series of initiations and studying to become a witch in a tradition that dates back to Gerald Gardner, who was kind of the first person in England to come out of the witch closet In, I guess, 1958, year I was born, after they repealed the witchcraft laws in England. Because before that, if you let yourself be known as witch, you might be burned at the stake, you might be hung. So at that time, back in the. In the mid-80s, I met several people who referred to themselves as hereditary witches, which sounded a little dubious, especially the hereditary druids, because they kind of disappeared. Hard to trace. But today, there most likely are many hereditary witches, because the women and men that I grew up with all had kids or the ones who did do had kids. They grew up in Wiccan homes. So Wicca is a sort of modern reconstructive religion of what they imagine the ancient pagan religions were like. But there are many people who just call themselves witches without going through any training.

[Pablo Torre]

How does one get initiated, as you were, into this craft?

[Alexa Rosian]

So it's not a particularly proselytizing group religion, if you want to call it. You have to ask, and then you have to study for a year and a day, and then you have to ask again, and there's like a year and a day studying between each initiation and the third one.

[Michael]

Literally one year and one day.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah. And the third one, you become a high priest or high priestess.

[Pablo Torre]

Is there the equivalent of a pope for witches?

[Alexa Rosian]

Well, we do have witch queens.

[Pablo Torre]

Whoa.

[Alexa Rosian]

But there. To be a witch queen, I don't know, you have to have a certain number of covens offshoot from you or a certain number of initiates. I'm not a witch queen, but my priestess is. Both of them are witch queens.

[Michael]

I guess that makes sense. There's, like, a lot of bureaucracy, because there has to be. I mean, any. In any hierarchical organization, there has to be.

[Alexa Rosian]

You know, the more organized it became, the sort of. More it fell apart.

[Michael]

Right. The more you're just like, I just want to cast spells, guys. What the.

[Alexa Rosian]

There you go. Exactly.

[Michael]

I got a thought of form, and.

[Pablo Torre]

I was here for the newts.

[Alexa Rosian]

So that's why I'm very soft about. As I called before wannabes, which is maybe. Maybe not such a Nice term. It's, it's like I kind of feel like, you know what? If you want to be a witch, be a witch. I wanted, want to be a witch when I was a little, little and my mother would take me to the library and I would check out books on witchcraft and I had an experience when I was like maybe seven with my father of like, I made him do this ritual with me to raise the dead. And it worked and.

[Michael]

Wait, what do you mean it worked?

[Alexa Rosian]

It worked.

[Pablo Torre]

What happened?

[Michael]

Yeah, but what do you, what does that mean?

[Alexa Rosian]

Well, we used to go to Jamaica for our holiday and there's a famous place there and a famous woman called the White Witch of Rose hall. And she's kind of infamous because she had several husbands and kind of supposedly murdered them all. But I don't know where in my seven year old mind I decided this wasn't true and we should. I had read in a book that my mother got me in the library a spell to raise the dead and I wanted to raise the dead and I wanted to ask her what happened. Kind of wanted to clear her name. And I convinced my father to take me there at midnight. There's a place where she's supposedly buried.

[Pablo Torre]

There. There's a whole, I mean, needless to say, there's a whole Wikipedia page about this.

[Alexa Rosian]

There you go.

[Pablo Torre]

The White Witch of Rose Hall. Annie Palmer.

[Alexa Rosian]

Annie Palmer.

[Pablo Torre]

In, in, in Rose Hall. Montego Bay.

[Alexa Rosian]

Montego Bay, okay. My father's favorite place.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, I've seen the commercials.

[Michael]

I only know, I only know it, I think, from the song Kokomo.

[Pablo Torre]

I just want to point out to the basic sort of setup of like, why are we doing this beyond our general curiosity, which is in Michael's case, endless.

[Michael]

Yeah. We don't have enough time for the.

[Pablo Torre]

Episode I want to do, but I would say that witches are kind of having a moment right now, not merely because it's literally Halloween.

[Alexa Rosian]

It is, it is. Tis the season of the witch and.

[Pablo Torre]

Tis the year of the witch, I dare say.

[Alexa Rosian]

Oh, tell me about that.

[Michael]

Yeah, I'm interested in this too.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, my, my daughter and my niece, their favorite thing is Wicked.

[Alexa Rosian]

Oh, Wicked. Oh, well, Wicked is fabulous.

[Michael]

Okay, good to know.

[Alexa Rosian]

The witches like Wicked and the Broadway show. Oh, absolutely.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. And. And the story they're in of like there is a green skinned villain who turns out to be both the hero of the story and also like, like.

[Alexa Rosian]

It'S a nice turnaround.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I, I just wonder if in that there is some resonance for you as somebody who maybe projects on the basis of her profession and her perhaps rituals as scary, but in fact may well be a friend to all.

[Alexa Rosian]

I'm totally down with that.

[Pablo Torre]

All of which is to say that I'm wondering if at some point in this episode you will consider casting a spell on a couple of people that we might ask you to towards the end? Not yet, but just me and Michael. We're gonna sort of like soft launch some curses.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah, I mean we can talk about that. People always ask me, are you a good witch? Are you a bad witch? I say I'm a real witch. So at times, you know, we need to lay some stuff down.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Alexa Rosian]

To protect ourselves.

[Michael]

Are witches with the curses, etc, are we ever like cursing each other back and forth? Curse, curse. Battles.

[Alexa Rosian]

Oh, don't even get me started on witch wars.

[Michael]

Which wars? Of course that's what they're called.

[Pablo Torre]

The 106 in park of witches.

[Michael]

So sometimes witches are just blasting back and forth.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh my God. Damn. I do want to understand this episode.

[Michael]

Is going to be 12 hours long.

[Pablo Torre]

Dude, did you order the new iPhone 17 Pro? Got it from Verizon, the best 5G network in America. I never look so good.

[Alexa Rosian]

You look the same.

[Pablo Torre]

But with this camera everything looks better. Especially me.

[Alexa Rosian]

You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.

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[Pablo Torre]

My understanding of the witch as a profession. And I guess wizards. Is that how we should think of it? Are they related? Separate? No. Not the same thing at all.

[Alexa Rosian]

They can be, they cannot be. Depends who you talk to, right?

[Pablo Torre]

Growing up, I was, of course familiar with the stories of King Arthur, in which Merlin was, of course, a very famous wizard.

[Michael]

Mordred. You got Mordred. That's the bad one, right? Well, is it Mordred? The evil. The evil.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't want to. I don't want to cast aspersions in front of a witch about whether one is a good or a bad witch.

[Michael]

Oh. My impression was Merlin was. Was the good one.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael]

Was the evil one. I know this from playing the game. I can't think what the game's called. Avalon.

[Alexa Rosian]

Avalon.

[Pablo Torre]

Avalon.

[Alexa Rosian]

I think so. That's kind of what Wicked is about. Sort of the idea of, like, who's telling the story.

[Michael]

I see, I see. Okay, so you're saying that, like, you know, the perspective might shift. My view is overly simplistic.

[Alexa Rosian]

Right.

[Michael]

Okay, that's hurtful, but I. But probably correct.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

Likewise. Jafar from Aladdin.

[Alexa Rosian]

Uh huh.

[Pablo Torre]

You know, he's working for the Sultan of Agrabah, but what if he too has a bunch of interests that my niece might enjoy?

[Michael]

Yeah, I mean, he. But we gotta. Jafar's a bad guy. Have you. Are you familiar with Jafar?

[Alexa Rosian]

I'm not as familiar with Jafar.

[Michael]

Well, then we shouldn't dwell on it. But that.

[Alexa Rosian]

But you're making me think of the latest Superman, which brings up these kind of issues as well. Just the idea of like, who's the villain?

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. Yeah. And. And I guess what I'm saying is, across not just the world of musical theater and the cinematic adaptations of musical theater, as well as various children's books, we're also getting to this point where, I mean, have you heard of the Etsy witches that have gone viral in the Various things that they've done on the Internet.

[Alexa Rosian]

I. I'm hearing about that, yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I'm noticing that you're not eager to coign what all the other alleged witches are up to because they may not be up to the, you know, standards.

[Alexa Rosian]

Listen, I'm in my crone years at this point. Do you know about the crone?

[Michael]

I don't.

[Alexa Rosian]

We have, you know, the triple goddess, maiden mother and crone. So I'm in my older years, maybe a bit more laid back. You know, it's going to really take something to get me up from the table. Okay, to start, you're stirring some.

[Pablo Torre]

Right, right.

[Alexa Rosian]

In my youth, I cast my share.

[Michael]

Yeah. I can't believe this is a conversation I'm having. That's not a sentence a person I have ever talked to in real life has said. Oh, yeah, my youth buddy. I cast my share.

[Pablo Torre]

I was flabbergasted to learn on the Internet that one of the Etsy witches apparently only charged $16 for a curse lifting spell. And a Mariners fan hired them for approximately $16. And there was a winning streak and then, of course, a horrific exit from the MLB playoffs. So mileage varies, I guess, on the efficacy of the $16 spell.

[Alexa Rosian]

Listen, I have respect for the $16 and I have respect for that particular Etsy wish. Whether she's, you know, self initiated, there is. There are self initiations, whether she's gone through a true initiation process. But, you know, perhaps she didn't charge enough and that's why the spell kind of conked out midway. But there's lots of theories that we could go into about that. You know my story, right?

[Pablo Torre]

I would love for you to tell.

[Michael]

Please, God, tell me what you're saying.

[Pablo Torre]

The way that Wicked allowed witches to do. I would love for you to tell your story.

[Michael]

Yes, please.

[Alexa Rosian]

So. And George Vesey wrote about this in the New York Times in 2006.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, the great sports writer George Vesey.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yes. So I had a group of fellows come to me. They were in their early 30s and they were New York jets fans, and the fathers had been jets fans. So, you know, it's a thing inherited right from the father to the son. And of course, the jets had not won Super bowl since 1969 with Joe Namath. They wanted me to take the curse off of the Jets. So I agreed to. I grew up in a football house. My father played football. His brother played high school, a little bit of college. And I thought, well, maybe I. I can do this. No money involved. Although you should always cross the palm with silver. For anything that business you do with a witch, you should do that.

[Pablo Torre]

Is that literal or figurative?

[Alexa Rosian]

Well, it could be paper money.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Okay. I don't think we have any silver, but you could probably scrounge up some dollars.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I think late at Fox News, they're selling. I think you can, you know, you can. You can get some of that.

[Michael]

Is you said, the way you said cross the palm with silver sounded like it was a quote from something. Is that.

[Alexa Rosian]

Or it is. I don't know where it's from, but it's.

[Michael]

Yeah, it is an ancient tome.

[Alexa Rosian]

An ancient tome.

[Pablo Torre]

A rune, perhaps?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Alexa Rosian]

So he did the spell as I instructed, and there were several phases to it, and as he was doing it, the jets were winning and things were going along really well, and then it was that. That final game and chance that they had. And he. I didn't find this out till later, but they lost the game. And, you know, I forget what Vessie ended up writing about it, but what he didn't investigate and I investigated afterwards is like, I called the fellow up and was like, what happened? I actually was sick and could not. He went to Times Square to do this big ritual and. And I instructed him on what to do, but I couldn't be with him. And he told me that he made a variation on the chant that I had given him to say that he wanted the jets to win the super bowl in his lifetime, which was not what he was instructed. He was instructed to say to win. To win this game, this particular game in this particular year. So as a psychoanalyst, I have some theories about that.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Wow.

[Alexa Rosian]

Which is that I think that these guys are. The jets, are losers. And there's something about being invested in losers and maybe not wanting to give up that status.

[Michael]

Oh, you're saying he self sabotaged the spell?

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah, of course he did. I mean, he should live a long life. He should live a very long life. And I'm convinced that one day in his lifetime, the jets will win.

[Pablo Torre]

But he basically, not this year. He edited the own. He edited his own fine print to make it so that the spell was undermined. Because as a psychoanalyst, you also can detect that some part of him, at the core of him, the most inner ring of his body, is. Is just a big loser who didn't want to stop losing.

[Michael]

I mean, he went to a witch, he said, tell me how to do this. The witch goes, here's how you do it.

[Pablo Torre]

And then you don't do what the Witch does starts working and then at the finish line, you. He's like, actually, let's. You could, you could, you could make this work anytime. As long as I'm still around. Which just means, you know, geez Louise, I know. That is a very. That's the butt fumble of spells.

[Michael]

Really? What. What approximately what year are we talking about here?

[Alexa Rosian]

2010.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Oh, so not that long ago.

[Pablo Torre]

The 2010 jets, as a matter of historical record, lost in the AFC title game with the aforementioned butt fumbler.

[Michael]

Oh, it's Mark Sanchez who.

[Pablo Torre]

This year has not been a great year. Perhaps just merely as a matter of general observation for Mark Sanchez. We'll flash a headline here. Not great for the guy who could have been saved via spell, but instead was of course beholden to the self editing of an inveterate hereditary loser.

[Alexa Rosian]

Right. But they did win some earlier games.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, well, made it the FC title game.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Look, the. The notion that sports fans come to you. What about sports to you? Feels ripe for this sort of like, I guess both psychosis and longing for some supernatural, truly supernatural intervention.

[Alexa Rosian]

Well, the first thing I think of is baseball. A lot of superstition in baseball. Right. They don't even need witches kind of. They. All kinds of superstitions. And there's a history of curses in with the Red Sox.

[Michael]

Curse of the Bambino.

[Alexa Rosian]

Curse the Bambino Y.

[Pablo Torre]

So Jason Giami, Yankee slugger, used to wear a lucky gold thong. Speaking to. Wow.

[Michael]

Superstition.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. The power of such objects, of cursed objects.

[Michael]

Let me ask you this. I think the word superstition to me is pejorative. Immediately, it's like kind of a silly thing. Is that. Do you view superstition in the same way?

[Alexa Rosian]

What I think of is respect, you know, certain. Certain road you don't cross without leaving an offering, let's say.

[Michael]

Got it. Okay. Respect.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, when it comes to who taught you that respect? What did you inherit?

[Alexa Rosian]

Oh, boy, that's a long story. I mean, I. My mother could read your mind and that was really scary. So there's that kind of element of respect.

[Pablo Torre]

How vivid is your memory of what your mom was reading?

[Alexa Rosian]

Oh, she just knew. She knew what you were up to. I mean, it was truly scary.

[Michael]

I think my question is, do you mean like in the way that I also think my mom knew what I was up to or do you mean like she had some kind of supernatural.

[Alexa Rosian]

No, I mean she had some kind of super. She was born with a call. Do you know what that is? It's a veil that the baby is Covered in a. Like a veil or a call. And they say that those people are witches.

[Michael]

Wait, what the hell are you talking about? The baby is born with a. Oh.

[Pablo Torre]

C, A, U, L. Yes.

[Michael]

Okay, but what does that look like?

[Pablo Torre]

Well, you can describe it, I suppose, but I'm.

[Alexa Rosian]

I wasn't there. I didn't see it, but it's kind of like a cloak or a veil.

[Pablo Torre]

It's. It's a thing.

[Michael]

When the baby is born, there is.

[Pablo Torre]

A thin membrane covering a newborn's head at birth, which is sometimes associated with superstitions of. Yeah, various interpretations.

[Michael]

Never heard of this in my life.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, it's a thin filmy membrane of the amniotic sac. Michael.

[Michael]

Huh?

[Pablo Torre]

That can cover a newborn's head and face at birth.

[Michael]

A call. C, A, W, L, C, A, U, L, C, A, U, L. This is dramatic.

[Pablo Torre]

This is dramatic.

[Michael]

So your mother. Your mother was born with.

[Alexa Rosian]

She was so dramatic. Yes, From.

[Pablo Torre]

From. From the first second she showed up.

[Michael]

And babies who are born with a call, immediately the assumption is that they have some kind of a power, because this is, I guess, then, extremely. I've never even heard of this, so it must be somewhat rare.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I'd never heard of it until now, to be. To be quite clear, but it's a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some early modern European traditions. Oh, boy. Yeah. Linked call birth to the ability to defend fertility and the harvest against the forces of evil. Oh, interesting. Okay. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a whole folklore around this.

[Michael]

Okay. I mean, I'm obsessed with this. Now, this is what I'm gonna spend the rest of my. After we're done here, that's what I'm gonna spend the rest of my day learning about.

[Pablo Torre]

But your mom, in other words, her personal story is a supernatural one.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yes. And she did have supernatural powers. She could see things that other people couldn't see. She could read your unconscious. You could read your mind. And my father's mother, she also had some. She was an herbalist. But I mean, we're talking about the 60s. Like, who. Who was into that, right, in the 1960s.

[Pablo Torre]

Herbalist, like a sativa or indica or like something.

[Alexa Rosian]

She grew plants, she made teas.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Alexa Rosian]

She had knowledge.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

So that's your father's. Your father's mother, you said. Yes, and then your mother.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yes. So you could say, oh, I'm a hereditary witch. But I've never. I've never claimed.

[Michael]

Pablo's gonna do a tree joke.

[Alexa Rosian]

I went, you're gonna do a tree joke?

[Michael]

Something about a Tree. Let's do it. I don't know what he is, but.

[Pablo Torre]

Something that you have a pretty spooky family tree.

[Michael]

There you go. Was it worth it? Was that worth it? All that.

[Alexa Rosian]

That was totally worth it.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay.

[Michael]

It's a very generous audience.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, someone knows.

[Alexa Rosian]

And.

[Michael]

And is there some significance the fact that it was these women that had these sort of natural abilities? Does it skip? Like, is it like. Like only men can get colorblindness? Pretty much. Is it like a reverse. I don't know why I brought up colorblindness. Is that true? I think colorblindness is carried in the. In the chromosomes.

[Alexa Rosian]

Interesting.

[Michael]

Women can carry it, but they don't express it in general.

[Pablo Torre]

So the female condition in a nutshell.

[Michael]

Yeah. So men have the. My super. I have the superpower that only men have, I think which is that I cannot see most colors. But women like, are there. But men can be witches or no.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, men.

[Alexa Rosian]

New men can be witches.

[Michael]

And there's not a separate. Because I thought a warlock was.

[Alexa Rosian]

But you know, there's a controversy over this.

[Michael]

I don't know this for me.

[Alexa Rosian]

My idea. Men can be witches, women can be witches, trans people can be witches. But there is a certain sect, a dianic sect of witches that are not very friendly to trans women.

[Pablo Torre]

Whoa.

[Michael]

These are they like generally more politically conservative witches, like on other subjects or specifically that.

[Alexa Rosian]

You know, I love the Diana witches because they were all so big fat feminists and then this is in the 70s and then they all had babies through like artificial insemination and they all had boy babies. And I just thought this was. This is really great. What are you going to do with this, ladies?

[Michael]

What Dianic is a derivative of who's.

[Alexa Rosian]

Of some Diana the goddess. The goddess Diana of the moon.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right. Some. A bunch of real J.K. rowlings over there is what it sounds her.

[Alexa Rosian]

She's not a witch. She's like stolen.

[Pablo Torre]

Stolen valor.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Michael]

Are you not now prior to the prior. Are you saying that because of this trans issue. Are you saying it also because of.

[Alexa Rosian]

Like I never ever.

[Michael]

This Harry Potter. I hate this.

[Alexa Rosian]

The Harry Potter. They made me read the Harry Potter back when the first book came out so somebody could interview me and you know, do a. Do like an article about what does a witch think about Harry Potter? And I think that I was fairly kind. But it. It. I didn't enjoy it. I felt it had no. This is a word, Tom, which means taste. No, no salt in there. No spice in there.

[Pablo Torre]

You're a master of not merely various spells, but vocabulary.

[Michael]

There's probably just a whole. A whole nomenclature in like a lexicon inside of witchery that we don't know anything about.

[Pablo Torre]

Except one thing that is clear and relatable is J.K. rowling.

[Michael]

Yeah, I mean that I understand.

[Pablo Torre]

I do love the idea by the way. If I can climb onto a soapbox made of. Of myself, I would love to observe that there are some witches out there, some real witches out there, allegedly, for whom the supernatural is certainly possible. This is built into the premise. But are like. But gender is not something we can interpret in a way that violates the binary of boy and girl.

[Alexa Rosian]

And how crazy is that?

[Pablo Torre]

That seems a bit. A bit, dare I say, illogical. This is when we talk about the interpretation of. I mean you, Michael, you. What is. But no, I reference your Michael is a excellent comedian who has a one man show. And the part of the underlying sort of like thought that just sparked in my head, so to speak, is this thing you think looks like this can actually be multiple things.

[Michael]

Absolutely.

[Pablo Torre]

And so it is with gender and spells. I mean as Aaron, as Jets quarterback Aaron Rodgers once said, words are spells.

[Michael]

He's not wrong.

[Pablo Torre]

Don't necessarily want to co sign him somehow.

[Alexa Rosian]

Look up the origins of abracadabra.

[Pablo Torre]

The origin of abracadabra. One popular etymology of it is that it comes from an Aramaic phrase, or in this other case a Hebrew phrase which translates to I create as I speak. And there's yet another wing of theories that propose that it is a corruption, so to speak. It's like normative term.

[Michael]

Google. How dare you.

[Pablo Torre]

How dare you. Of the Hebrew words for father, son and holy spirit. Ab ben rock hakodesh in some form or fashion. I'm not great at Abracadabra. Abra abracadabra.

[Alexa Rosian]

Abracadabra.

[Michael]

Yeah, I didn't realize that was like a serious. I didn't realize. Serious phrase.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Alexa Rosian]

Say the first. The first meaning again.

[Pablo Torre]

The first meaning. I create as I speak.

[Alexa Rosian]

I create as I speak.

[Michael]

Words or spells?

[Alexa Rosian]

Words or spells?

[Pablo Torre]

The podcaster's creed.

[Michael]

The most reckless witches of them all. What are the rules here? Okay, here's another question.

[Pablo Torre]

What are the rules? I think we're learning them as we go.

[Michael]

You spoke before, you alluded to the like, the power of spells. Is there like, what is the most. The most powerful thing that a spell has ever done?

[Pablo Torre]

Ooh.

[Michael]

Do you understand my question?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah. What's. What's the.

[Alexa Rosian]

Well, you know Rola, Nordic, she's gone Goddess rests her soul. I was lucky enough to have many teas with her to go to her apartment, the Upper west side. She created a tarot deck, and she wrote a book, and she was a very lovely witch. So she used to tell us about. She's British, from the uk. She used to tell us that every week, witches of London would gather and they would chant and they would do a spell to keep Hitler from ever touching the soil on British soil. And, well, he never did. Right. They had the air raids, but they never invaded by land or by foot.

[Pablo Torre]

Whoa.

[Alexa Rosian]

That's pretty powerful.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Winston Churchill.

[Michael]

Yeah, exactly. That guy taking all the credit. We will fight them on the beaches. Guess what? The witches are doing it.

[Pablo Torre]

We're fighting them in this cauldron. Hypothetically, if we were to persuade you to cast a spell, how does that go? Like, what do we need to present to you? What do we need to tell you about. What do we need in terms of ingredients? How do we sort of make this happen?

[Alexa Rosian]

Well, we did have. We did bring some ingredients right into the studio that were from a spell that I wrote in one of my books, Enchanted Evenings.

[Pablo Torre]

I believe you have been communication with Ryan Cortez, the most wicked of all.

[Alexa Rosian]

The most wonderfully wicked Ryan Cortez. Look, what do we got?

[Pablo Torre]

You guys have been, like, hanging out on the side and.

[Alexa Rosian]

And chili you brought over.

[Michael]

Okay. Now these. I would say these look like ingredients I would have in my home.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah, well, I'm the supermarket sorceress. That's.

[Michael]

Is that right?

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

That's such a great rap name.

[Michael]

So, like, the ingredients that I use to make, like, you know, cookies or, you know, a nice chili, you could also use to cast a powerful spell.

[Alexa Rosian]

Absolutely.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Alexa Rosian]

Absolutely. So if you put all these things together, you can basically cause somebody to.

[Michael]

Slip up, make a little mistake.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, okay. So hold on. So this is important because it does not mean that we are wishing horrific consequences upon.

[Michael]

And that is the thing I really worry about with spells. What? Okay, so the. The little encounter I've had with spells in pop culture is always like, you do this. What is it? It's like a monkey's paw. Like, you do it, you make a wish, and the wish comes true, but in a super up way that you didn't want it to come true.

[Alexa Rosian]

There's that, and there's also, like, it'll come back at you times or tenfold.

[Michael]

Is it possible for us to, like, very narrowly define the parameters of this. Of the results of this spell, or is that just not how it Works.

[Alexa Rosian]

That's not really how it works. Yeah, there is an element of how it works. And I, I write about this, I think, in almost every foreword of my book. So the idea is. And Aleister Crowley, who was known as the most wicked man in the world, he wrote a lot of books too, but he talked about this. And from a psychoanalytic standpoint, we also can understand this. So one of the examples given is, for example, let's say you want to kill somebody. Okay. And you do a death spell.

[Pablo Torre]

Ooh.

[Alexa Rosian]

So there's always this kind of idea that, oh, it could, it could bounce back, you know, it, it could mirror back. So how do you keep that from happening? So.

[Michael]

How, how, how would it mirror back? Like you, you, Someone has a different spell that protects them from your spell.

[Pablo Torre]

Or your rubber and I'm glue spell.

[Michael]

Yeah. Do you like, say a word wrong and it ends up like, how do you, how do you know?

[Alexa Rosian]

It's more complicated than that. So if you were going to want to kill somebody, which we don't, for.

[Pablo Torre]

The record, legally speaking.

[Alexa Rosian]

Legally speaking.

[Michael]

Not even legally, just in any way.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't, I don't want to also that legally, ethically.

[Alexa Rosian]

But let's say that we did.

[Pablo Torre]

Sure, yeah. For the purposes of podcast, like, listen.

[Alexa Rosian]

I had a book coming out that I was supposed to have a book signing at the. Was it the Borders in the World Trade center in October, the first week.

[Michael]

Of October of 2001?

[Alexa Rosian]

Yes. Okay, so you know what happened, right?

[Michael]

Yeah, sure do.

[Alexa Rosian]

We had all this publicity lined up and everything and everything got canceled. But my publicist said to me, well, you know, channel, whatever, we'll have you on if you do a spell to kill Osama bin Laden. And I said, yeah, no, I'm not gonna do that. And they were like, but blah, everyone wants him dead. And I'm like, yeah, I'm just not gonna do that. I'm not feeling that. But you know, this book is actually about money. And I can tell you this is gonna be a lot of financial problems and issues now after this World Trade Center. And I was right about that.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, there was a Borders bookstore, by the way, in the World Trade Center. Of course, it was a three floor thing.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah, yeah, it was a beautiful thing, you know, And I said, I can talk to people about money and investment and that's all the, everything that this book is about, to help people out. And they were like, no, no, no, they only want you to kill Osama bin Laden. So just so you know, I wasn't even into killing Osama.

[Pablo Torre]

Even.

[Michael]

Even when it's someone who universally was regarded as killable. You're like, that's not really my thing.

[Pablo Torre]

Right, right, right, right.

[Alexa Rosian]

But so, okay, so if you want to kill somebody and you do the spell to kill somebody, it's not going to work unless that person has a lot of suicidal ideation.

[Pablo Torre]

Whoa.

[Alexa Rosian]

And if they don't, if they're a well adjusted person that's had, you know, years of psychoanalysis and they feel pretty good about themselves. So that line that you sent is going to. If you think of like a line of electrical charge. Right. You sent it. Or like a magnet. Right. There's a positive and you have to have a negative. And then it's like, boom, it hits. But if that's not there, it goes back to return to the same.

[Michael]

Oh my. Okay, so it's what sounds kind of like this is a high stakes decision. When my kids were littler than they are now, if they would try and push me, if I was like kind of already tipping over, I would fall down. But if I'm standing up straight, they're pushing me. Would actually knock them down.

[Alexa Rosian]

You've got this so perfectly.

[Michael]

Thank you so much. Well, I'm ready to be a witch. Unless that's a bad thing to say.

[Alexa Rosian]

In which case I retract you cheeseburger you. So, yeah. So if you're going to do that kind of work, you better make sure that you're very healthy in terms of your mental health and your physical health and emotional health that you know, because otherwise it will. It will return to you.

[Michael]

So you want. So your spell is more likely to succeed if it's some sort of a negative spell on. On an object that is already predisposed, like kind of teetering on the edge. You're kind of going to push it over.

[Alexa Rosian]

You got it.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay. Wow.

[Michael]

So fascinating.

[Pablo Torre]

So what I found out already is that I need to come up with a backup because I was going to ask you to re kill Osama bin Laden.

[Michael]

That would be that. I mean, wow.

[Pablo Torre]

That was going to be the aggregate.

[Michael]

Could you double. Could you double kill?

[Pablo Torre]

Could you revive Osama bin Laden and then kill him again?

[Alexa Rosian]

Kill him again.

[Pablo Torre]

And then we could also have the Rock leak out on Twitter that I had re killed Osama bin Laden.

[Michael]

The Rock. The rock. The man. The man called the Rock.

[Pablo Torre]

You're not familiar with this?

[Michael]

What?

[Pablo Torre]

Is this how the Rock tweeted out the news of the Osama bin Laden assassination? By alluding to this thing before anyone.

[Michael]

Else did The Rock had the news first.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right.

[Michael]

I did not know that.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, I don't know.

[Michael]

Kind of makes you think the Rock is a witch.

[Pablo Torre]

It is May 1, 2011 at the Rock. Quote, just got word that will shock the world. Dash. Land of the free, home of the brave. All caps. Damn proud to be an American. Exclamation point, 10:24pm and not long after.

[Michael]

Wait, but he didn't say Osama bin Laden there any place.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, but then what happened?

[Michael]

He just got news that shocked the world, and we just sort of interpreted that that meant Osama bin Laden.

[Pablo Torre]

Your theory is that he was like.

[Michael]

That he was like. Doritos is releasing a new flavor.

[Pablo Torre]

The 3D Dorito.

[Michael]

They're bringing back Dipsy Doodles or something.

[Alexa Rosian]

But maybe he did know.

[Michael]

Maybe he did.

[Pablo Torre]

I'll tell you. Got Dipsy Doodled. Got double Dipsy Doodles.

[Alexa Rosian]

Duffel.

[Michael]

Dipsy Doodle. That's what they call the operation.

[Pablo Torre]

Dude, did you order the new iPhone 17 Pro? Got it from Verizon. The best 5G network in America. I never look so good.

[Michael]

You look the same.

[Pablo Torre]

But with this camera, everything looks better. Especially me.

[Alexa Rosian]

You haven't changed your hair in 15.

[Pablo Torre]

Sell these.

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[Alexa Rosian]

Boost Mobile. Boost Mobile will give you a free year of service.

[Pablo Torre]

Free year when you buy a new 5G phone.

[Alexa Rosian]

New 5G phone? Enough.

[Pablo Torre]

But I'm your hype man. When you purchase an eligible device, you get $25 off every month for 12 months with credits totaling one year of free service. Taxes extra for the device and service plan online only.

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[Pablo Torre]

I would like to try something on the level of like a pratfall spell. Like something embarrassing that happens in public that all of us might be able to Observe that we can even root for having cast such a spell that prevents us from having true legal liability.

[Michael]

Most, most importantly, legal liability.

[Pablo Torre]

Is there. Is there someone, Michael, that you are thinking of?

[Michael]

Well, okay, this is. I. Don't tell me if this is allowed. What I'm gonna say, okay, because it's not a person.

[Pablo Torre]

You can't curse me.

[Michael]

No, it's not you. What I. What, Katie.

[Pablo Torre]

Are you gonna be Katie Nolan?

[Michael]

No, Kay Nolan is a person. First of all, Katie, I think of you as a person. I do not want to. I do not want to curse her. I wanted to curse AI. I want AI to be cursed.

[Alexa Rosian]

I am so down with that.

[Pablo Torre]

Let's go. Idea. I was gonna go.

[Alexa Rosian]

These ingredients are really good for this.

[Michael]

Let's go.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait. I like this.

[Alexa Rosian]

AI needs to slip up so badly that everyone can see. Oh, this is a bad investment. This. We can't trust this.

[Pablo Torre]

I think this is a great idea. I was gonna go.

[Alexa Rosian]

Are you brilliant or what?

[Michael]

I think I'm brilliant. I think I might be the smartest cheeseburger in all the land.

[Pablo Torre]

Allow me to say, Michael, to that suggestion. Well done.

[Alexa Rosian]

Well done.

[Michael]

Like it. Because, like a burger. Really good. Dude, you're on fire, man.

[Pablo Torre]

I was gonna say my proposal, which I think we should not do because yours is way better. Was. I was gonna curse Dan Orlovsky because he hates me and also he's scared of all the spices on the table.

[Alexa Rosian]

Oh, he is.

[Pablo Torre]

You know.

[Alexa Rosian]

Well, then he better just. He better. He better watch himself.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, he already ran out of an end zone once, which feels like he was cursed by some other witch.

[Michael]

I don't even. I don't even know. Whatever this beef is. I don't know what this is.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, it's.

[Michael]

You know, I think about when I see Dan Orlovsky. That guy's hands are so big.

[Pablo Torre]

I know.

[Michael]

Do you ever watch the. Ever watch him on any of the shows? What if he puts his hands in frame? They're in. They are. And they are enormous. I don't know if we'll cut this out or not, but if we don't cut it out, you guys gotta find a picture of him. Then when those hands get on screen, it's like. It's like some kind of a supernatural creature.

[Pablo Torre]

As someone who has giant trees. It's like that big right now.

[Michael]

It is like. That is the.

[Pablo Torre]

Imagine this. But telestrating. Like a Caleb Williams play on an iPad.

[Michael]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

That's mostly what the Dan Orlovsky experience is like.

[Michael]

Like just so background for me. Vis a vis AI. Like just this week, the. They found out that like, you know, if you. It'll take high risk gambling bets that it will lose. I forget. And like in Albania, they had a guy on TV saying that they're. The AI is pregnant with 83 babies. Do you know what I'm talking about?

[Pablo Torre]

I don't, but that sound.

[Alexa Rosian]

How does that work?

[Michael]

I don't know. I don't know. I didn't understand what he was trying to say. He said that the, a. The. The AI in their country now has 83 babies, one of which will go to each like minister in the government. And each one will have his own. His own AI. I'm not a fan.

[Alexa Rosian]

Also, all the energy.

[Michael]

I know the data centers, the energy.

[Pablo Torre]

Data centers, the water and the energy.

[Alexa Rosian]

And everything that this is taking, stealing.

[Michael]

And it was supposed to be. That's going to save you. AI is coming. It's going to fix all the stuff. What is it? I don't think it does any of that. The chat.

[Alexa Rosian]

The chat.

[Michael]

GPT people or whatever. Open AI. It's going to do porn.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh yeah.

[Alexa Rosian]

They're like, now it's going to do porn.

[Michael]

We're going to do. I mean, which is. It was already doing porn, but they're like, they're like a mainstream company that's like, oh, and also we do. It's. We do porn now.

[Pablo Torre]

Right, right, right, right.

[Michael]

I thought it was going to end all our global everything and instead it's like.

[Pablo Torre]

I got good news for you though.

[Alexa Rosian]

As a psychoanalyst, I think this is really bad for humanity.

[Michael]

Yes, I agree.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

Now, now, is there some, like, wacky ass way this is going to come back and bite me in the ass? This smell. Okay, you seem very. You seem confident that it's not going to. But Pablo's very uncertain.

[Pablo Torre]

He feels like a classic rake that you're accidentally gonna step up.

[Michael]

It's like the beginning of a movie about a series of curses that I walk into where like a bunch of robots fall on top of me or something. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

When you get well, you know, there.

[Alexa Rosian]

Is such a thing as protecting yourself.

[Michael]

Okay, well, how do. Let's do that too.

[Alexa Rosian]

That is allowed.

[Michael]

Well, with what? In what way?

[Alexa Rosian]

We're not even talking about a person here.

[Michael]

Right.

[Alexa Rosian]

We're talking about a. What are we talking about?

[Pablo Torre]

We're talking about truly an interconnected series.

[Michael]

Of a bunch of beeps and boops.

[Pablo Torre]

Beeps and boops.

[Michael]

But you're saying I protect myself.

[Alexa Rosian]

Ourselves. Any witch can use self defense.

[Pablo Torre]

I think that this is a risk worth taking.

[Michael]

And I would say if there's a way to, like, in the spell to say, like, you know, any kind of negative ramifications should now and in the future be directed to Pablo. Is that something we can do in the spell? We can just say any kind of boomerang effect Pablo is willing to accept. Insofar as it's your podcast.

[Pablo Torre]

It is podcast. And also to be very clear, we're talking not about Allen Iverson in case we are accidentally cursing.

[Michael]

That's a good thing to do. Are you familiar with Allen Iverson?

[Alexa Rosian]

No.

[Michael]

He was a great basket. He is. He's a great basketball player.

[Alexa Rosian]

Basketball player.

[Michael]

And his initials are AI So we don't want to present.

[Alexa Rosian]

No, no, we don't want to. We're talking about artificial intelligence.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Great. We have a cauldron.

[Michael]

Okay, well, I'm putting this here. I don't know if you're going to use it for anything or not, but there it is.

[Pablo Torre]

I think we got to make this.

[Alexa Rosian]

So these of these are the four ingredients. These two are actually protective.

[Michael]

So actually, we might throw those on my head.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah, we might each wanna.

[Pablo Torre]

Just smelling salt that.

[Michael]

Yeah, just chomp on that.

[Alexa Rosian]

Take a bay leaf.

[Michael]

Okay, nice. I'm eager. Any protective thing, I'm. I'm all for it.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay.

[Michael]

I'm taking a bay leaf and this can just be. I can just get them a corm. I don't have to go to, like a witch store. I can just buy a bay leaf.

[Alexa Rosian]

Right. Supermarket.

[Michael]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

She's a supermarket sorcerer sorceress.

[Alexa Rosian]

Take a whiff of the. Of the mint. Put a little on your. A little on your bay leaf.

[Michael]

On my bay leaf. Wow, that's really nice.

[Alexa Rosian]

Little cinnamon. Cinnamon is funny because cinnamon can be used.

[Michael]

That mint is really. This is. This is. It's really minted.

[Pablo Torre]

Ooh. Oh, boy. A little on the bay leaf.

[Michael]

Yep. Cinnamon also smelling.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah. And you can put a little on.

[Michael]

Your minty B leaf.

[Alexa Rosian]

On your minty bay leaf.

[Michael]

Okay. I am so into this. Okay. I didn't think I would be into this. Honestly. I think it's your vibes. Alexa has good. She has great vibes energy.

[Alexa Rosian]

Oh, thank you, gentlemen. Okay, so we have red sage chili powder, black pepper, cinnamon, and we are going to need a pinch of sulfur. So we're going to need some matches to take, like, take the. Scrape it off a match head.

[Pablo Torre]

We're going to get some of that.

[Alexa Rosian]

We got that sage.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. It's going into the cauldron.

[Alexa Rosian]

Going into the cauldron, you know, like, we need some real sage, meaning some wisdom.

[Michael]

I see.

[Alexa Rosian]

Instead of AI Agreed. And the cinnamon is cinnamon, go.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, here it is.

[Michael]

For God's sake, Pablo, give it.

[Pablo Torre]

Here it is with haste.

[Alexa Rosian]

See? So cinnamon. Depending on what you mix it with. Depends on how it will act. It's a fast act, something that acts fast. So, you know, if you add it with some positive things, it's like, quickly, protect us, keep us strong and successful here. Quickly.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Alexa Rosian]

Mess up A.I. i'm just wondering, did. Oh, did we have something to literally actually represent AI? What would be representative of that?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, we got something.

[Alexa Rosian]

What I want to use is, I want someone to, like, print out.

[Michael]

Oh, here it is. Listen to this.

[Alexa Rosian]

The, like, definition of AI.

[Michael]

So a piece of paper that has a definition of artificial intelligence on it.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, so we can target this.

[Alexa Rosian]

Put it in.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, hold on.

[Michael]

Can we get that?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah, I can write it down.

[Alexa Rosian]

No, I don't want you to use your handwriting.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, we want to type it. Okay.

[Alexa Rosian]

Did you need matches? We did need matches.

[Michael]

We do.

[Pablo Torre]

Can you print out a piece of paper that has the definition of A.I. on it?

[Michael]

Ask A.I. to define A.I.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yes, ask A.I. to define AI I love it. I love it, I love it.

[Michael]

Oh, dude, this works. We're so set. We're so set forever.

[Pablo Torre]

I think. I think this is exactly what America needs us to do. So we have printed out.

[Michael]

We asked AI what AI is, and AI told us that it is the development of computer systems capable of performing tasks that typically require human intelligence, such as reasoning, learning, and problem solving. And then it goes on to give it a little more gobbledygook. But that's kind of the. That's the crux of it.

[Alexa Rosian]

Okay, so we're gonna fold that paper into nine folds.

[Michael]

Nine fold. Any particular kind of folds? We don't care.

[Alexa Rosian]

Just nine times.

[Michael]

I'm not going to be able to do nine halves. But there's. That's 1, that's 2, that's 3, that's 4, that's 5. It's taking longer than I wanted to. That's 6, that's 7, and that is 8, and that is 9.

[Alexa Rosian]

So 9 is the number of completion and endings. Okay, so that's going to go in the cauldron.

[Michael]

Throwing it in there.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Alexa Rosian]

And we're going to add some sulfur. So we're going to add nine match heads. I don't want to lose count.

[Michael]

Take your time. 4.

[Alexa Rosian]

4. You want to do some.

[Michael]

Okay. I wonder how the people at Finelli's Cafe will feel about us using that.

[Pablo Torre]

Shout out to local SoHo institution.

[Alexa Rosian]

5.

[Pablo Torre]

For unintentionally helping solve the world's foremost.

[Michael]

This is 6.

[Pablo Torre]

Plague.

[Michael]

This is 7. Pablo, I feel like the last two should be yours. This is 8 and 9. Don't this up and put an extra goddamn match head in there. I swear to God.

[Alexa Rosian]

Yeah, because then it'll be new beginnings.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh boy.

[Michael]

Oh my God. Beginning.

[Alexa Rosian]

Oh, no, we didn't. That was eight.

[Michael]

Wait, wait. I think there might be nine in there right now. No, one. Look, look. Come here and look. One, two, three, four, five, six.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Seven, eight, nine.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh my God.

[Alexa Rosian]

You see how easy it is?

[Pablo Torre]

Holy. Oh, you're right. One, two, three.

[Alexa Rosian]

We don't want eight either, because eight is infinity.

[Pablo Torre]

God damn it.

[Michael]

Me. Dude, this is intense. Dude, there's nine in there right now.

[Alexa Rosian]

Should I check it too?

[Michael]

Yes. Everyone, everyone, everyone in the world, come and check it.

[Pablo Torre]

We totally almost Orlovsky that we almost.

[Michael]

But I got no beef with Dan Orlovsky. I don't know what happened. I have no. I have no problem with you. That. But that's. That's you and Pablo.

[Alexa Rosian]

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.

[Michael]

A. We were so close to AI. Like taking what would. 10. 10 is what? 10 is new beginning.

[Alexa Rosian]

New beginning.

[Michael]

We don't want a new beginning.

[Alexa Rosian]

Eight is infinity.

[Michael]

Oh, Jesus.

[Alexa Rosian]

We have all the stuff.

[Michael]

I'm nervous.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm genuinely a little.

[Michael]

I'm excited. A little excited and scared.

[Alexa Rosian]

And we should probably go to Fortuna. The great goddess Fortuna rules to fortune, so things can go forward.

[Michael]

If you say so.

[Alexa Rosian]

Then backwards.

[Michael]

Well, I'm absolutely not challenging you on which gods we're going to. I'm going for whatever gods you say.

[Pablo Torre]

But O Fortuna also is. That is the. That's the Carmina Barana.

[Alexa Rosian]

It is. Exactly.

[Michael]

Wow.

[Pablo Torre]

Whoa. Okay, wait, is this.

[Michael]

That's a.

[Alexa Rosian]

No, that's Carmen. Oh, so fabulous.

[Michael]

That's B. Zay. God damn it.

[Pablo Torre]

That. That is.

[Michael]

Or is that me? What am I doing? God damn it. Cut this out.

[Pablo Torre]

No, no, no, leave it. Roll the music underneath.

[Michael]

I know stuff. Cut it out.

[Pablo Torre]

So with this dramatic music playing underneath us in our post production edit, it will be there. What do we need to do?

[Alexa Rosian]

Oh, Goddess Fortuna, we ask you to protect the fate of mankind and to turn the fortune of AI Cause it to slip up and fail so that it cannot harm humanity. So mode it be. So mode it be. So mode it be. Do you guys want to add any words to that?

[Pablo Torre]

May humans masturbate the old fashioned way.

[Alexa Rosian]

Amen. So.

[Michael]

And that's beautiful, that is. So mode it be. And you know, may. May humans reign over technology and not the reverse.

[Pablo Torre]

So mode it be.

[Michael]

I have no spells vis a vis masturbating myself. I have not. I'm not. That's not for me.

[Pablo Torre]

Me thinks the witch doth protest too much.

[Michael]

Me thinks the cheeseburger. Wow. Okay. Wow.

[Alexa Rosian]

Make love not. AI.

[Michael]

Yes, indeed.

[Pablo Torre]

Damn. I gotta say, I usually come up with like some very clever sign off to wrap it all together until Latore finds out a show about finding stuff out. But I gotta say, I think I'm pretty stumped.

[Michael]

Jesus Christ. Could that undo the spell? Could the spell be up by that?

[Alexa Rosian]

No. Cleverness is never offensive.

[Michael]

Fortuna's not going to be like this.

[Pablo Torre]

Pablo Torre finds out is produced by Walter Averoma, Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, neely Loman, Rob McRae, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor and Chris Tomanello RStudio Engineering by RG Systems Sound Design by Andrew Bersick and NGW Post Theme Song as always by John Bravo and we will talk to you next time. Dude, did you order the new iPhone 17 Pro? Got it from Verizon, the best 5G network in America. I never look so good.

[Michael]

You look the same.

[Pablo Torre]

But with this camera, everything looks better. Especially me.

[Alexa Rosian]

You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.

[Verizon Ad Voice]

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[Alexa Rosian]

You're officially invited to the party Shop at Michael's where you'll find hundreds of new Items starting at 99 cents with an expanded selection of party wear balloons with helium included on select styles, decorations and more. Michaels is your one stop shop for celebrating everything from birthdays to bachelorette parties and baby showers to golden anniversaries. Visit Michaels store or michaels.com today to supply your next party.