Six Degrees of Jeffrey Epstein, with the Experts of TrueAnon

Summary

Pablo Torre Finds Out:

"Six Degrees of Jeffrey Epstein, with the Experts of TrueAnon"

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out (The Athletic)
Date: December 16, 2025
Guests: Liz Franczak & Brace Belden (TrueAnon)

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Overview

This episode takes listeners on an irreverent yet deeply-researched journey through the sprawling, endlessly strange saga of Jeffrey Epstein and the persistent connections between the billionaire sex trafficker, global elites, politicians, and the world of sports. Pablo Torre is joined in studio by Brace Belden and Liz Franczak, hosts of the cult-favorite investigative podcast TrueAnon, for an incisive and at times darkly funny discussion on why the Epstein story refuses to die, what “the list” really means, and how the scandal’s tentacles keep reaching into places of power — including the billionaires behind major sports franchises.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Meet the Guests and Introduce the Scandal

• [02:08] Pablo welcomes Liz and Brace, highlighting TrueAnon’s origins in Epstein coverage and poking fun at their colorful backgrounds.
  • "Brace is a 6’4’’ highly accomplished basketball player." — Liz Franczak
  • "Liz knows ball — about topics that aren’t ball, I think just being smart." — Brace Belden
• [03:36] Pablo fact-checks their resumes, confirming Brace’s Syrian Civil War adventure and Liz’s sports expertise.

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2. Why the Epstein Story Keeps Coming Back

• [05:12] Pablo explains the return of Epstein files: new photos, documents, and public intrigue.

• [06:00-06:49] The co-hosts look back on the feeling that things were wrapping up after the Ghislaine Maxwell trial, only for a new flood of documents and revelations to surface in 2024–25.

  • "This year has just been a flood." — Liz Franczak [06:35]

• [07:31-08:51] They detail the rare bipartisan nature of the scandal, with both parties struggling to weaponize it because of deep, mutual entanglements.

  • "It’s funny because... both Trump and Hillary Clinton were not only like, friends with Epstein, but good friends. It’s the classic Spider-man meme." — Liz Franczak & Brace Belden [09:03]

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3. The “Epstein List” & Political Media Games

• [09:31] Analysis of Epstein's role as a "shibboleth" (or “totem”) in right-wing media — memes, t-shirts, and the constant push for "the list."

  • “Would you declassify the Epstein files?—Yeah, I would, I guess I would… There’s a lot of phony stuff with that whole world.” — Donald Trump, referenced by Brace [10:35]

• [11:15] JD Vance tweets calling out journalists for not taking Epstein seriously — which Pablo admits, in a meta way, is part of his reason for pursuing this reporting.

  • "If you're a journalist and you’re not asking questions about this case, you should be ashamed of yourself.” — JD Vance, quoted by Pablo [11:31]
  • "You're hoisting yourself up on his petard." — Brace Belden [12:41]

• [13:00-13:29] The shifting ownership of the scandal: now Democrats are deep into the files, desperate for ammo against Trump, but the whole thing is a ‘hot potato’ for both parties.

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4. Inside the Epstein-Maxwell Nexus & Origins

• [16:03] Deep dive into Ghislaine Maxwell’s background, her father Robert Maxwell (spy, publisher, suspected Mossad asset), and the elite, tangled worlds they navigated.

  • "He was a rival of Murdoch, doing backdoor intelligence and diplomatic work… big international networker." — Brace Belden [16:03]
  • The mysterious death of Robert Maxwell, falling off his yacht (previously owned by arms dealer Khashoggi, bought by Trump later).

• [18:48] The beginnings of the Epstein–Maxwell relationship, forged at her father’s memorial, and their subsequent rise as a “power couple.”

• [20:28] Ghislaine’s claim they never slept together, supposedly due to Epstein’s infamous “egg-shaped penis” (a meme, but also a recurring courtroom theme).

  • “I mean, Jeffrey Epstein — there are allegations that he has a either egg or as we’ve recently learned, maybe perhaps lemon-shaped penis…” — Brace Belden [20:42]

• [21:49] The mechanics of Epstein's crimes: the “massage” stories, grades of abuse, and a six-massages-a-day routine as a sinister cover.

  • "He was getting massages from adults, too, but he was also getting these..." — Liz Franczak [22:42]

• [23:00] Les Wexner, billionaire owner of Victoria’s Secret and Ohio State’s football complex, emerges as key to Epstein’s financial ascent.

  • “We don’t really know how Epstein made his money…or how much he made.” — Brace Belden [23:17]

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5. How Sports Gets Pulled In

• [24:14] Epstein and Wexner’s link to Ohio State sports, raising the scandal’s “six degrees” connections.

  • “It’s the Les Wexner football complex at Ohio State.” — Pablo [24:14]
  • Epstein’s association used by alumni demanding Wexner’s testimony in the school’s sex abuse scandal.

• [26:27] The world of modeling as an access point to power, and its overlaps with both Trump and Epstein.

  • “There’s the rumor, of course, Melania ... that Epstein introduced her to Trump; it’s within the realm of possibility.” — Brace [26:29]

• [40:24-41:33] Private equity titan Josh Harris—owner of the Philly 76ers, NJ Devils & Washington Commanders—appears on Epstein’s calendar for a tentative breakfast with Epstein and Bill Gates.

  • “He was listed as an invitee to a tentative breakfast with Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Gates.” — Pablo [41:09]

• [44:31] Leon Black (Apollo Global), who paid Epstein $158M for “tax advice,” and the lack of substantive answers about the money trail.

  • “Jeffrey Epstein got $158M from Leon Black for tax advice… I’m no billionaire, but…” — Pablo [44:31]

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6. Prince Andrew’s Infamy & The Power of Royal Denial

• [32:20-36:56] A hilarious but biting breakdown of Prince Andrew’s infamous BBC Newsnight interview and the “I don’t sweat” defense.
  • “He has a peculiar medical condition which is that I don't sweat or I didn't sweat at the time.” — Prince Andrew [36:12]
  • “He got a lot of flack for that, but I gotta tell you — saying you hung out with a pedophile because you’re too honorable is...the first person in history to use this excuse.” — Brace [34:30]

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7. The Email Power Dynamics of the Elite

• [55:10-56:27] Pablo reveals a particularly strange email pitch to Epstein: a product to rejuvenate the vagina, met with Epstein’s laconic “sounds goo debut” response.
• They reflect on how the power of the elite is reflected in how much more effort people put into emailing them than they do in response.
  • “If you want to measure someone’s power, you measure it in the difference between the effort someone puts into emailing you and the lack of effort you put into responding.” — Pablo [56:14]
  • "It is kind of a power move. Almost every email of his: sent from my iPad." — Liz [56:27]

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Notable Quotes, Moments, & Exchanges

• On the inescapable, bipartisan stink of the case:
  “It was a hot potato for everyone involved…each party had such close connections.”
  — Liz Franczak [07:49]

• On the meme-ification of Epstein:
  "Epstein sort of became this shibboleth in right wing media…Epstein didn’t kill himself t-shirts…It really became, to Trump’s chagrin, part of his campaign.”
  — Brace Belden [09:31]

• On Ghislaine and Jeffrey’s power couple dynamics:
  “They get together after her dad dies — classic time to get with a woman.” — Brace [20:11]
  (Liz, audibly groaning: “Liz for the audio-only audience is shaking her head.”)

• On the six degrees of Epstein:
  "Josh Harris…listed as an invitee to a tentative breakfast with Epstein and Bill Gates." — Pablo [41:09]

• On Prince Andrew’s “sweat” excuse:
  "Saying you hung out with a pedophile because you’re too honorable is, I think, probably the first person in history to use this excuse." — Brace [34:30]
  “She described dancing with you and you profusely sweating…” — BBC Interviewer [36:12]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:08] — TrueAnon on Epstein’s omnipresence; intros
• [03:36] — Pablo’s fact-check: who are Liz & Brace?
• [05:12] — The return of the Epstein flood: new documents, political stakes
• [09:31] — Epstein as a culture war totem; the “Epstein List”
• [16:03] — Ghislaine Maxwell’s spy dynasty background
• [20:28] — The “egg-shaped” meme & the mechanics of Epstein’s crimes
• [23:00–24:14] — Les Wexner: financial origin story; links to college sports
• [26:26] — Modeling world: Epstein’s “casting couch”, link to Melania
• [32:20–36:56] — Prince Andrew’s infamous defense (“I don’t sweat”)
• [40:24–41:33] — Private equity, pro sports, and the Epstein files: Josh Harris & Leon Black
• [48:31–50:04] — Interview with Tom McMillan: flight logs, political donations
• [55:10] — The power asymmetry of elite email correspondence

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Tone & Style

The conversation is equal parts investigative rigor, darkly comic banter, and cultural commentary. Brace and Liz bring TrueAnon’s signature blend of research-backed insight and irreverent humor, while Pablo keeps the discussion rooted in sports, politics, and media with a journalist’s curiosity.

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Conclusion

This deep-dive episode blends hard reporting with sharp wit, exposing both the shocking scope and the absurdity of the Epstein web. Whether through modeling, college football, or the royal family, Epstein appears everywhere power does — and the journalists, podcasters, and publics keep following the connections, however circuitous, as the scandal refuses to disappear.

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For More:

• TrueAnon Podcast
• Miami Herald’s Julie K. Brown reporting
• Dropsite News investigative series (linked in episode description)
• Pablo Torre’s prior episodes on the Epstein files and six degrees of elite scandal

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Note: Ads, intros, and outros omitted per instructions. All sections and quotes timestamped for listener reference.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[Prince Andrew]

There's a slight problem with the sweating because I have a peculiar medical condition which is that I don't sweat or I didn't sweat at the time. And that was. Oh, she. Yes, I didn't sweat at the time.

[Pablo Torre]

Right after the sad.

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[Brace Belden]

What are we talking about, Jeffrey?

[Liz Franczak]

What are we talking about, Jeffrey?

[Pablo Torre]

Heaven.

[Brace Belden]

That old. That old.

[Liz Franczak]

That old bastard.

[Pablo Torre]

Brace Belden. Liz Franzak, thank you for being here.

[Liz Franczak]

Thank you.

[Brace Belden]

Thank you for having us.

[Pablo Torre]

I need people to appreciate your show. True Anon for lots of reasons. First and foremost, though, I need you to describe each other, if you could.

[Liz Franczak]

Yeah, of course. Well, Brace is a 6 4, highly accomplished basketball player.

[Brace Belden]

I would say that. And I know what she's supposed to describe me. I'm a natural athlete.

[Pablo Torre]

To be very clear and honest here, your Wikipedia page is one of the more bizarre texts that exist on the Internet.

[Brace Belden]

Listen, it's Wikipedia. It's not the full story, but it is a. It makes me look Like a psychopath.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right.

[Brace Belden]

Liz. I would describe as. I hate to seem like. I'm almost trying to make her fit in here. Liz is a giant sports fan.

[Liz Franczak]

That's true.

[Pablo Torre]

Liz knows ball.

[Brace Belden]

Liz knows ball. And she's smart in like, she knows ball about other topics that aren't ball, whatever that's called, I think just being smart. But Liz is a very pleasant person, I would say.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, Liz, I don't think fought in the Syrian civil war.

[Brace Belden]

No, she was. No, Liz was briefly in isis. People don't know this. And people think because like now it's like she's doing all the lady brigade. But she was. Yeah, she was the lady brigade and they kicked her out over some theologians. Logical difference.

[Liz Franczak]

The isis. Isis.

[Pablo Torre]

It's like how the Tennessee Volunteers have the Lady Vols.

[Liz Franczak]

Exactly.

[Brace Belden]

Precisely.

[Liz Franczak]

Sure.

[Pablo Torre]

So I just got to jump in here to quickly fact check the truth behind Truanon for you, because True and on, which is otherwise known as my favorite podcast that was specifically born in 2019 to cover the whole Jeffrey Epstein case is in fact co hosted by a guy who did sneak across the border into Syria in 2016 and volunteer with a Kurdish militia to fight ISIS. Grace Belden, whose Twitter handle used to be hispiggranddad, chronicled all of this on that account, which no longer exists. And then he returned home to become a labor organizer. Liz, Meanwhile, Liz Francak really does know as much ball as the people yelling about sports on television. Just for the record here, but the reason Brace and Liz are in studio with me today is, is because I recently did my own bit of Epstein coverage. This was two weeks ago when I interviewed 6 foot 11, former NBA player and three term Democratic Congressman Tom McMillan about his life and career and recurring appearances in the recent wave of Epstein files. More on this specific character and story later. But last week, yet another tranche landed upon our shores.

[Liz Franczak]

There were new Epstein photos released today showing you and also Bill Clinton, Steve.

[Pablo Torre]

Bannon, what were your reaction to those.

[Liz Franczak]

New photos that were released?

[Brace Belden]

Well, I haven't seen it, but I mean, everybody knew this man. He was all over Palm Beach. He has photos with everybody. I mean, almost there are hundreds and hundreds of people that have photos with him. So that's no big deal. I know nothing about it.

[Pablo Torre]

All of which made me want to talk to Brace and Liz about how we got here and how to make sense of an undeniably bipartisan scandal that keeps connecting to sports. When did you guys realize that you're gonna spend this much of your lives Talking about Jeffrey Epstein, I'm still realizing it.

[Liz Franczak]

Yeah, it still is like a wave that crashes over me. It's funny because, you know, we covered the Ghislaine Maxwell trial here we are.

[Pablo Torre]

Also following breaking news. Ghislaine Maxwell will serve 20 years in.

[News Announcer]

Prison for sex trafficking.

[Pablo Torre]

A federal judge announcing that sentence within the last hour. Now, Maxwell was convicted of helping to recruit young girls to be abused by.

[News Announcer]

Her longtime associate, Jeffrey Epstein.

[Pablo Torre]

Back in December, the judge saying, quote.

[Brace Belden]

At the end of the Ghislaine trial, that sort of seemed to be it in terms of, like, any kind of new investigation. Jean Luc Brunel, who is one of Epstein's close associates, who was sort of in this, like, inner circle with Ghislaine and Epstein, he died in a similar manner to Epstein in a prison in Paris. Tonight, Jean Luc Brunel is dead, found in his Paris prison cell, hanged with his bed sheets, according to the Paris prosecutor's office. And so it was sort of like, okay, well, Epstein's dead, Jean Luc Brunel's dead, and Ghislaine is in prison and sort of incommunicado.

[Liz Franczak]

And when she was convicted, it was sort of like, this is going to be one of the last sort of gasps of this case. And then, lo and behold, this year has just been a flood.

[Pablo Torre]

Conservatives are asking why Attorney General Pam Bondi and the DOJ issued a memo saying there's no new evidence. President Trump is defending Bondi, calling her fantastic and urging supporters not to waste time on Epstein.

[Liz Franczak]

Quote, we have nothing to hide, says Donald Trump. The president now saying he wants House Republicans to vote in favor of a bill to compel his own Justice Department to release the Jeffrey Epstein case files.

[Brace Belden]

They can do whatever they want. We'll give them everything.

[American Red Cross Announcer]

Sure.

[Brace Belden]

I would let the Senate look at it, let anybody look at it.

[Liz Franczak]

So many new tranches of information, emails.

[Pablo Torre]

Depositions, several high profile names are listed.

[Brace Belden]

In newly released documents turned over by the estate of convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein.

[Pablo Torre]

Democrats on the House Oversight Committee say they will not stop until they identify.

[Brace Belden]

Everyone complicit, they say, in Epstein's heinous crimes.

[Liz Franczak]

And a judge is unsealing secret grand jury transcripts from Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking case. It's the latest in a string of decisions making case files public after Congress passed a law requiring they be released. Now the Justice Department is facing a deadline in just over a week to release all the Epstein files. It was always funny because I think between the two parties, no one ever really knew what to do. About Epstein. Like, this was an issue in the 2016 election. Yes, 2015, leading into the 2016 election. And then kind of came back with a vengeance when he was arrested and right before he perished, obviously. And then again this year, as you know, you know, all the Trump people are trying to absorb this into, you know, having this kind of be their thing or whatever, and then kind of ending up with pie on their face because he was so close to Trump. But everyone didn't know exactly what to do because each party had such close connections to them.

[Brace Belden]

It's one of those things where in 2016, if it had been any other people, like both Trump and Hillary Clinton were not only like, friends with Jeffrey Epstein, but at various times, good friends with Jeffrey Epstein.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Liz Franczak]

Like all together though, too. Yeah. Like it would be just the Clintons, the Trumps and Jeffrey Epstein in photos.

[Brace Belden]

Exactly. And it's so crazy because, like, listen, if it was basically not anybody else, but most people in the country, if they're running against either politician, you could be like, weren't you friends with a pedophile guy for a long time sort of doing to Trump or, or to Clinton what's happening to Trump right now? But they were unable. They were almost some of the only two people in the country were unable to hit each other on Epstein.

[Liz Franczak]

Classic Spider man meme.

[Brace Belden]

Exactly. And it's funny because Epstein sort of became this shibboleth in right wing media. Right. Like, you have these. I don't know, maybe I'm also using the word shibboleth wrong. But you know, what can I do, like a Jamie thing? Can you put the definition of shibboleth kind of on the screen right now?

[Pablo Torre]

Because you're just turning me into Joe Rogan's. Oh, you're my Jamie researcher. I'm here to play the role of. Of Jamie. Oh, you want me to look up shibboleth?

[Liz Franczak]

I mean, just.

[Brace Belden]

Am I right about what the word shibboleth means?

[Pablo Torre]

It is a word, custom practice that identifies someone as belonging to a particular group or conversely marks them as an outsider.

[Brace Belden]

Okay, I'm wrong on the word shibboleth, then. Fine. Totem. Jeffrey Epstein sort of existed as a totem for the, for a lot of right wing media. And they sort of did like these like, oh, Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself T shirts. The release of this thing, that kind of cohered into the Epstein list.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Brace Belden]

Really became kind of, I feel like to Trump's chagrin, a part of his campaign. And he was pressured by these kind of right wing podcasters into agreeing to release an Epstein list, which he did twice. Once in a TV interview, and I think once in a podcast interview. Would you declassify the Epstein files? Yeah, Yeah, I would.

[Liz Franczak]

All right.

[Brace Belden]

I guess I would. I think that less so because, you know, you don't know it. You don't want to affect people's lives if it's phony stuff in there, because there's a lot of phony stuff with that whole world. And J.D. vance as well, he has this sort of awkward exchange with Theo Vaughn where he's sort of forced to be like, yep, release the list.

[Pablo Torre]

Seriously, we need to release the Epstein list. That. That is an important thing.

[Brace Belden]

It has just been disaster after disaster. It is one of the things I think that Trump has mishandled worse than anything else probably in his entire career.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, the tweets that JD Vance sent, I'm just going to quote from one of them. What possible interest would the US Government have in keeping Epstein's client secret? Oh, one tweet, another one. If you're a journalist and you're not asking questions about this case, you should be ashamed of yourself. What purpose do you even serve? I'm sure there's a middle class teenager somewhere who could use some harassing right now, but maybe try to do your job once in a while.

[Brace Belden]

They shouldn't let millennials be in politics.

[Liz Franczak]

Yeah, yeah, he's doing, like, office gyms.

[Brace Belden]

You can't be like, oh.

[Liz Franczak]

Oh, that's this whole thing.

[Brace Belden]

I know, I know, but I should.

[Pablo Torre]

Say in response to that thing, right? When he says, if you're a journalist and you're not asking questions about this case, you'll be ashamed of yourself. That is a big. I mean, not the only reason why, but it's part of why. My thought was, this is clearly an absurd story that the Internet can have its. Whatever. It could feast on this. But, like, I consider myself aspiringly serious journalist like JD Vance is telling me to do this. Why would I do that? And I want to shout out, like, the real journalists who have done work on this, like Julie Brown, Miami Herald, being the foremost person I think of. Of, like, doing real investigative work that has never, I would say, looked more prescient, more important in retrospect. And now I'm realizing, oh, like he was hoisted on a petard to the extent that I have used that petard as my.

[Brace Belden]

You're hoisting yourself up on his petard.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right.

[Brace Belden]

Pause on that. But that's. It's. It's this is. And I just want to say I'm looking at the camera. Direct advice. Never be involved in the hoisting of a any which way because you think you might be hoisting someone else's. It might be your own petard. That is hoist. What is a batard? We don't know. But that's something that gets a bit of a shibboleth. It's a bit of a shibboleth, yeah. That's what they say going back to.

[Liz Franczak]

This whole, like either party doesn't know what to do with this case, which it's like kind of a hot potato for everyone involved. Is that like now Democrats, like are completely obsessed with it. Yes. In a way that they are now going like so far deep in it. It's kind of funny to watch in a way that they're just looking for anything, anything, anything that they can kind of like use as ammunition against Trump.

[Pablo Torre]

It feels like for the Trump administration, it feels like a real pressure point.

[Brace Belden]

It really is in a way that few other things are. I mean, Donald Trump is sort of known for being Teflon don. Right. Like kind of untouchable. But again, his mishandling of this from top to bottom. And to be clear, like, there's not really allegations against Trump in terms of like victims that have spoken out or have directly accused people of something. Virginia Jeffrey has said explicitly that Donald Trump was not involved with what happened to me. And so I was always like, you know, he's a piece of. But like he was probably doing his weird with like, probably adult models that he was, you know, getting from Russia or whatever. Allegedly. I'm not even alleging that, but I'm saying if he was to do something, he was probably doing something with those people. But the way that he has tried to like squash this story has made me be like, what the is going on? And then that slow. The strangeness with the letter and the lawsuit saying that the letter was fake. He filed like a multi billion dollar lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal and Rupert Murdoch for allegedly coming up faking a letter which they were able to.

[Pablo Torre]

The birthday, the birthday, the whole thing of like, I, I don't illustrate anything. And then it's like people pointing out here are a series of illustrations, Mr. President, very similar, otherwise made and I.

[Liz Franczak]

Will say kind of nice illustrations.

[American Red Cross Announcer]

He's pretty good.

[Brace Belden]

It's not bad. You know, it's.

[Pablo Torre]

George Bush has his cat paintings. Donald Trump loves doodling.

[Liz Franczak]

I always say they look like they belong at like Sardis or something. Like the, like almost classic midtown New York skyline. Yes, it's all there.

[Pablo Torre]

But before we can get back to where there is sports in this story and also the ways in which Jeffrey Epstein connects to the billionaires who run sports, I also don't want to take your knowledge of the deep lore of this story for granted, because in order to make sense of Jeffrey Epstein himself and how he became this nexus point for what can legitimately be described as the global elite, you also need to know the peculiar origin story of his former girlfriend and confidant and employee, Ghislaine Maxwell, and how the two of them met.

[Brace Belden]

Ghislaine Maxwell comes from this family, you know, Robert Maxwell, her father, the bouncing check, who was this sort of science book magnet in the post war years. He worked as a spy for British intelligence during the war. After the war, he sort of had this like, strange kind of combination of jobs where he was very big publisher, was sort of a rival of Rupert Murdoch, but he was also involved in this kind of like, let's say, backdoor intelligence and diplomatic work where he was, you know, he's from Britain and. But he was going over to Bulgaria quite a bit. He was quite close with the Israelis and he was spending a lot of time in the Soviet Union. And so he was just kind of this guy, this international networker guy who also had these many newspapers and sort of famously, he was alleged to have been involved in the kidnapping of Vanunu, the Israeli, the whistleblower who revealed that Israel has a nuclear weapons program.

[Pablo Torre]

And I'm just trying to process everything you just said.

[Brace Belden]

And that's not like conspiracy theories.

[Pablo Torre]

No, that's what I mean. I'm like following along. I'm Jamie. Ing along and I'm like, yep, there's that. There's the Israeli nuclear program story.

[Brace Belden]

Yeah. Still never acknowledged by our government or theirs. He was a really sort of interesting character, was killed or died. It's sort of a similar thing to what happened with Epstein, where there's a lot of mystery sort of around his death. But he fell off his yacht and he was quite a large man.

[Liz Franczak]

He was.

[Brace Belden]

And I don't know how gravity works. I'm not going to pretend like I'm like Mr. Isaac Newton here, but I'm like, if you're like that big of a dude, don't you kind of have. It's like harder to push you over? Right.

[Liz Franczak]

Well, you. For him to tip, he would have to. I mean, I think that would be very, you know, it's a low center of Gravity that's kind of holding you down there.

[Brace Belden]

But I don't know how gravity works.

[Liz Franczak]

But it's important to mention too that like, in the immediate aftermath, I mean, Ghislaine didn't think that he like just fell off his vote. He. She thought that he was pushed.

[Pablo Torre]

And the boat was called Lady Glenn.

[Brace Belden]

Which was previously owned by famous arms trafficker Adnan Khashoggi.

[Pablo Torre]

Yesogi. I know this from separate. A separate rabbit hole. He's the guy who had also done business with Trump.

[Brace Belden]

Correct? Yeah. I think Trump was actually maybe gonna buy that boat.

[Pablo Torre]

In 1991. Donald Trump, who is envious of Adnan Khashoggi, the, the mogul, the Saudi Arabia mogul, arranged to buy the yacht, as it's called, then called the Nabila, for $29 million and touted it on David Letterman's show as, quote, probably the greatest yacht ever built. It's really been kind of a great investment. And he renamed it the Princess, apparently after Ivanka. So just a real. Yeah, a real bunch of. A bunch of dads loving their dad. We just love our kids as a bunch of fathers of daughters.

[Liz Franczak]

It's such a small world, isn't it?

[Brace Belden]

Yes, yes. And so, and so Ghislaine actually gave interviews and was like, my father was killed. And it's interesting because that brings us. Actually she meets, or at least the first picture ever of her with Jeffrey Epstein is at her father's memorial here in New York City. And this is kind of when they began dating. It seems like they did meet before then, but sort of the first, I think official linkage of them comes at Ghislaine's father's memorial. I don't know if the first reported.

[Liz Franczak]

Appearance of them together in like the society pages.

[Brace Belden]

It's funny, cuz what, what Robert Maxwell really wanted for his daughter is for her to be like. Basically he wanted her to like join the Kennedys and to like, you know, the dream. The dream in like, what was it? The dream.

[Liz Franczak]

Kind of an odd relationship.

[Brace Belden]

86.

[Liz Franczak]

Yeah.

[Brace Belden]

You know what I mean? Like, he also allegedly. I don't know if you want to put this in. He wiped his ass with. With full length bath towels.

[Pablo Torre]

We wanna put that in.

[Brace Belden]

Okay.

[Liz Franczak]

Yeah.

[Brace Belden]

That's just. There's allegations of that he was a big. He's a big fella, you know. You know, and who knows what's going on with that. Their British dad is very strange. That's really when Epstein and Ghislaine were like. They were. That was like. They were the top of their power couple game. And so they had a strange relationship. They get together after dad dies. Kind of no disrespect, and I don't mean anything by this classic time to get with a woman. And their relationship is.

[Pablo Torre]

Liz for the audio only audience is shaking her head.

[Brace Belden]

Shaking her head ca. She's like, damn, he's right. But they have an interesting relationship where she seems to be like enthralled to him in many ways. And he's just like, I don't give a fuck, I'm cheating on you with a Rothschild and. And Eva Dubin.

[Liz Franczak]

But also it's very unclear, like what they're. I mean, she has kind of alluded like, oh, yes, we were together. But then also that they. I mean, they never slept together. But she says because of a medical condition that he had.

[Brace Belden]

I mean, Jeffrey Epstein, there are allegations that he has a. Either egg or as we've recently learned, maybe perhaps lemon shaped penis, which seems to. It's most basically the same shape.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Brace Belden]

I'm like looking for a feel.

[Liz Franczak]

Like lemon is a little pointier.

[Brace Belden]

Lemon to me is, yeah, you're right, you're right. You know, it's like the taper is more. Is, yeah.

[Liz Franczak]

I'm googling sharper of a paper.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm Googling eggs. So.

[Brace Belden]

Oh, I can just picture them usually. But I. It's there, it's. It's.

[Liz Franczak]

There did seem to be some sort of deformation.

[Brace Belden]

I will say there is out there a picture of Jeffrey Epstein's penis. And I'm not saying this in like a I'm trying to be crazy way, but like this has been a major part of the Jeffrey Epstein story for a while. Like it was a pretty like.

[Liz Franczak]

Well, they asked him about it.

[Brace Belden]

Exactly. He was like, when is it true.

[Liz Franczak]

You have an egg shaped penis?

[Brace Belden]

Crazy. In a deposition to be like, you gotta, you gotta know that question is like 60th on the list. And like every time you ever want to go down, you're like, I'm gonna.

[Liz Franczak]

Get the night before you're looking in the mirror just like practicing it in the bathroom.

[Brace Belden]

Like, you're like, try not to stutter. And he was like, I mean, not to get too into it. Like his sexual predicament.

[Pablo Torre]

I feel like we're well past the point of you being able to say.

[Brace Belden]

Okay, not to get too into it. But like he does. I mean, his big thing was like these sort of massages and like sometimes it was a euphemism. Oh, especially all of like the kind of Paul Beach Allegations with the teenage girls is like those. Most of those were in the conte of these massages, some of which began as regular massages. But he would pressure them into doing other things or offer them money to do other things. And sometimes, you know, there are allegations. I mean, there's. There's a. There's full, like, penetrative rape allegations against him. And then there's like, oh, he just paid me money for a hand job. So they sort of run the gamut. But he also. That there's this other kind of, like, exculpatory. Not exculpatory, but I believe in, like, Ghislaine's view, exculpatory stuff. And maybe Jeffrey's as well, as we saw from some of the emails, that he's like, no, I actually love getting massage massages. So he was getting massages from adults too, but he was also getting these.

[Liz Franczak]

It was like six times a day.

[Brace Belden]

Yes, he was. That's why I'm like, where was his job?

[Pablo Torre]

Well, I think the question I'm asking myself all the time is like, what should I know that I don't know already when I'm like, catching up on the coursework? And then it's this, like, the related question of what becomes a meme that people do know about and why?

[Brace Belden]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And for instance, like, Les Wexner, I think, is somebody we deserve to really be talking about.

[Brace Belden]

Yeah. I'm sure that he is sort of preferring his kind of slow fading away into the darkness. I think probably he never wants to.

[Liz Franczak]

Be in the news. He wants to live in the darkness.

[Brace Belden]

He does. He certainly does.

[Liz Franczak]

He certainly got a face for it.

[Brace Belden]

But he was the owner of the Limited, which was this sort of conglomerate which owned a bunch of different brands, notably Victoria's Secret. And it's through him that Jeffrey Epstein seems like he got his first big break. Now that's actually where we kind of come to our first problem is we actually have basically no insight into what that big break looked like. Yeah, it's still to this day, it's pretty unclear. And there are people working on this, both in. In Congress and in the Senate and also journalists working on this. We actually don't really know how Jeffrey Epstein made his money and how much.

[Liz Franczak]

Of it he made.

[Brace Belden]

Yeah. And so within, like. I mean, within like six or seven years of working for Leslie Wexner, he's making like, tens and tens of millions.

[Liz Franczak]

Of dollars, has power of ATT this.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, he was the primary investor in Money Manager and was so close to. Yes, he had Power of attorney, which is like the most intimate legal relationship you can have with another person.

[Liz Franczak]

And there's rumors of other types of intimate relationships between the two of them.

[Brace Belden]

I will say. And frankly, I, you know, I have heard so many rumors about Leslie Wexner predilections, but we have heard. We've heard several, including from people who have sort of maybe know some of the principles involved, that Leslie Wexner and Jeffrey Epstein had a. A deeper relationship than is reported.

[Pablo Torre]

So as a matter of. Just like the sports of this. Because we're sports in this story, you may be asking a technically sports show. I was seeing, of course, Leslie Wexner's name on the football complex at Ohio State University. It's the Les Wexner football complex at Ohio State. Yeah. Relatedly, more recently, a bunch of Ohio State alumni were holding up photos of the face aforementioned of billionaire Les Wexner with Jeffrey Epstein because they were demanding testimony from Wexner in their own school sex abuse case involving this Dr. Richard Strauss, who was allegedly abusing all of these wrestlers. This is the Jim Jordan story. This is all of that. As one former OSU wrestler, Tom Lizzie, put it, quote, we believe Wexner's testimony will shed light because he was on the board of Ohio State while it was all happening.

[Liz Franczak]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And so speaking of just like, where does Epstein. The six degrees of him. Yeah, I mean, this is one. This is one degree right. To the other giant in this case, male sex abuse scandal at Ohio State University.

[Brace Belden]

It's funny because he really. I think he saw which way the wind was blowing very early, along with the Jeffrey Epstein stuff, I think, probably because their names are so connected. And so with. There was a lot of. This is sort of ancient history now, but in 2019, after Jeffrey Epson got arrested, there was a lot of reporting that came out about him essentially, like, abusing his position as this kind of money guy or like, consigliere for Leslie Wexner in order to essentially do, like, casting couch with adult models who maybe he would entice with potential work for Victoria's Secret. Now, this is something that actually is a pretty important part of the Jeffrey Epstein world to begin with.

[Pablo Torre]

Modeling.

[Brace Belden]

Modeling, Exactly.

[Liz Franczak]

And this brings back Trump, by the way.

[Brace Belden]

Yes. I mean, well, there's the rumor, of course. Melania, I just want to say this. And again, I'm looking right in the camera. Hunter Biden is currently under threat of lawsuit from Melania Trump for $1 billion for claiming that Jeffrey Epstein introduced Donald Trump and Melania Trump. I'm saying that it is within the realm of possibility that something of this nature could have possibly occurred due to the social scenes these people were moving.

[Pablo Torre]

In the social network. Right. Of like, what and who is hanging out with each other and what do they know and when did they know? It is separate from what did you do criminally.

[Liz Franczak]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And I want to clarify, for instance, like, Les Wexner. This is the reporting. You know, there were these Epstein documents released by a U. S. District judge in New York in January 2024 that involves Virginia Giuffre alleging that she was forced to have sex with Wexner numerous times. Okay, so that's Wexner. And he's reportedly repeatedly denied that allegation.

[Brace Belden]

One thing that I think that has always sort of there's been this in a stench of it around Jeffrey Epstein is that, like, clearly he was moving money in places and maybe washing money or laundering money for people globally. Globally, yeah. I mean, it's. We're getting a little more insight into kind of his global practices now with the latest tranche release. But it's. It's still such a black hole. I mean, so much finance stuff is a black hole on purpose. But I think it is notable that, like, yeah, he lived in, like, the US Virgin Islands, dude. Like, that's like. I'm sure that they're very beautiful islands. I've never been there, but, like, I think that there's also maybe a little bit of a dual purpose for that. And he, in fact, was getting, like, these special sort of tax programs, I believe, set up specifically for him in the US Virgin Islands. Jeffrey Epstein's relationship to the government of the U.S. virgin Islands is so insane.

[Liz Franczak]

Yes.

[Brace Belden]

Like the J.P. morgan case.

[Liz Franczak]

The cases with J.P. morgan Chase and Deutsche bank have yielded some of the more like, interesting disclosures over the years. I mean, you mentioned Julie K. Brown. There's a few journalists at the New York Times that have been following this since his arrest and really trying to, like, follow the money, which is a whole different angle than some of the more like, kind of more salacious stuff that people kind of get caught up in. And what kind of came out with the Virgin Islands case was fascinating, too, because that he had such a close relationship with the governor there.

[Brace Belden]

De Jong, I believe.

[Liz Franczak]

Yes. Cecile De Jong, who's the governor's wife, she would help him secure student visas for girls that he would bring over from Eastern Europe to be university students. Except then they wouldn't be really university students. They would just kind of be, quote, unquote, Working for Jeffrey Epstein, which you have to do that. I mean, there's like a whole procedure there, you know, to get a student visa that you have to go through the government. I mean, so, you know, none of that really caught on in a lot of mainstream coverage. But it's small details like that that have really stuck with me.

[Pablo Torre]

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[Pablo Torre]

[e-mail]. This brings me, by the way, to just the character of Prince.

[Brace Belden]

Andrew. Oh, yeah, because it's.

[Pablo Torre]

Tough. He has gone viral, so to speak. He has become nationally famous, internationally famous, obviously, so to speak. And yet I had not seen the BBC News Night. You never saw that interview until I was just preparing to talk to you.

[Liz Franczak]

Guys. He's so good, isn't.

[Pablo Torre]

He? It's.

[Liz Franczak]

Incredible. It's shocking. It's like it had been a while since I had seen it because, you know, we talked about it when it kind of. When it came out, obviously. But the. Just the sheer amount just. He's like, I don't need media training. I don't need help with.

[Pablo Torre]

This.

[Liz Franczak]

I'm. I'm just gonna go for it myself. And just. It just crumbles.

[Pablo Torre]

Completely. It is. I. I was remarkable when I was talking, Tom McMillan. I was imagining, like, how rarely it happens when you get someone in the files in front of a journalist with just extended opportunity to.

[Brace Belden]

Question.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. And this interview with Prince Andrew is like 50 minutes. And it is all about this. And at one point, race. He's talking about how he stayed at Epstein's house after so much of the news came out. And he calls it.

[Prince Andrew]

This. It was a convenient place to stay. I mean, I've gone through this in my mind so many times. At the end of the day, with the benefit of all the hindsight that one could have, it was definitely the wrong thing to do. But at the time, I felt it was the honorable and right thing to do. And I admit fully that my judgment was probably colored by my tendency to be too honorable. But that's just the way it.

[Liz Franczak]

Is. He just needed to be by the park. It was so.

[Brace Belden]

Convenient. He got a lot of flack for that. But I gotta tell you, saying that you hung out with a pedophile because you're too honorable not to is, I think, probably the first person in history to use this.

[Pablo Torre]

Excuse. Your honor, I love work too.

[Brace Belden]

Much. Exactly.

[Liz Franczak]

Exactly. He should have said, your honor, that Was during my pre woke.

[Brace Belden]

Phase. Yeah. Your honor. It's different in the uk. It's different in the.

[Liz Franczak]

Uk. We were just different back.

[Pablo Torre]

Then. Who he is, though, just like, okay, Prince Charles's.

[Brace Belden]

Bro.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. Who had been subsequent to all of this, excommunicated, banished from Buckingham palace and so.

[Brace Belden]

Forth. A little before. He was kind of the black sheep.

[Pablo Torre]

Always. Well, one of the things. What is your favorite memory from that interview in terms of, like, what still sticks in your.

[Brace Belden]

Craw? I mean, I hate to say it because it seems like the most obvious answer, but saying that he was so scarred from the Falklands War that he was no longer able to sweat and thus could not. This memory that Virginia Jeffrey has of him being very sweaty. And to say this as a person who. Many pictures of Prince Andrew feature him on ecstasy in Ibiza, sweating.

[Liz Franczak]

Copiously. Dare I say he's sweating in that.

[Pablo Torre]

Interview?

[Brace Belden]

Yes. I think that is. It is sort of. It speaks to the power of the royal family. And I don't mean power as in temporal power. I mean really spiritual power coming from God, that he was able to think that this excuse would.

[Liz Franczak]

Work. She was very specific about that night. She described dancing with you and you profusely sweating and that she went on to have baths.

[Prince Andrew]

Possibly. There's a slight problem with the sweating because I have a peculiar medical condition which is that I don't sweat or I didn't sweat at the time. And that was. Oh, she. Yes, I didn't sweat at the time because I had suffered what I would describe as an overdose of adrenaline in the Falklands War when I was shot at. And I simply. It was almost impossible for me to sweat. And it's only because I have done a number of things in the recent past that I'm starting to be able to do that again. So I'm afraid to say that there's a medical condition that says that it didn't do it. So.

[Liz Franczak]

Therefore. Okay, so just a few things. One, if you're a journalist and you're a journalist, you know what I say to this? I say, what are the things you did? What are the things you did to get your sweat back that I'm curious.

[Pablo Torre]

About?

[Liz Franczak]

Yeah. Two, I want. They made, like, all these movies. We were just talking about this. I didn't know movies about this.

[Brace Belden]

Interview. Yeah, it's very strange. But that was. I. I view them as, like, how they made a hot Cheetos movie.

[Liz Franczak]

But also all the, like, MeToo.

[Brace Belden]

Movies.

[Liz Franczak]

Yes. You know, the girls, the Megyn Kelly moment. The girls are Taking them down kind of moment anyway. But what I want is a movie that is just the scene before the interview with his PR girl where they are coming up with the plan for how he's going to explain that she could be lying. And they come up with, well, what if we say I medically can't sweat? Because I want to know the, like, logic and how he kind of could come up with such an idea. Because to be honest, I do think it is very.

[Brace Belden]

Creative. He does an incredible sort of lie thing where he's like saying this and he's like, was that. Yeah, like, you know what I.

[Liz Franczak]

Mean? Like, before I did all the work to get the sweat.

[Brace Belden]

Back. Because it's like, before I did ayahuasca and before I did some healing, it's like, I'm sorry, and this is. Maybe British viewers or Argentinian viewers even might find this offensive. I cannot take PTSD from the Falklands War seriously in any respect. Especially I believe, a naval guy. He wasn't even on that one big battle that they had. And so it's like, all right.

[Pablo Torre]

First of all, this is why I mentioned that Braes was in the Syrian Civil war. So he has the.

[Liz Franczak]

Authority. You know what.

[Pablo Torre]

Though? To condescend to the.

[Brace Belden]

Falklands. I'm sorry. I'm.

[Liz Franczak]

Sorry. For a prince, I'm sure it was pretty.

[Brace Belden]

Scary. It was pretty scary. I'm sure it was pretty scary to be on a big ship with an Argentinian ship shooting the widow guns at you. But it is difficult to be like, okay, so that scared you so bad, so you couldn't.

[Liz Franczak]

Sweat. It's never heard of this.

[Brace Belden]

Before. Maybe you sweated everything out and you're depleted for many years until you drink enough.

[Liz Franczak]

Electrolytes. We do need more journalism because we need to find out how he came up with this.

[Brace Belden]

Idea. Yes. And I think a really gave it to.

[Pablo Torre]

Him. Did they look up the photos of him profusely sweating, which are also easily.

[Brace Belden]

Available. She knows, you know what I mean? There's a million photos of him, like, with his, like, mouth open with Naomi Campbell in the background, going.

[Liz Franczak]

Like. Like clearly on.

[Pablo Torre]

Mdma.

[Brace Belden]

Yes. He's probably done more ecstasy then that. Who's Macaulay Culkin? The movie Party Monster where they kill the kid? Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's like that. He was like that, but a royal. And.

[Liz Franczak]

It'S. It's not that long ago.

[Brace Belden]

Either. No. Well, it's so. It's. It's funny because his connection to Ghislaine Maxwell comes, I believe, from. From uni as they call it out there, which is also where, according to Boris Johnson's sister heavily implying this in a column I believe she wrote for the Spectator, Ghislaine Maxwell also might have Boris Johnson, which is, by the.

[Liz Franczak]

Way, none of my.

[Brace Belden]

Business. None of my business either. I would, I would pay not any amount of money, but I would pay probably 500 to see a high definition picture of Boris Johnson completely naked from the front and back. Two pictures. It's.

[Liz Franczak]

Crazy. He's always wearing Union Jack.

[Pablo Torre]

Underwear. I feel like that photo Brace described would give me a surge of adrenaline such that I too could not sweat.

[Brace Belden]

Anymore. Well, because I would sweat so.

[Liz Franczak]

Much. Interesting.

[Brace Belden]

Pants. And also pants, of.

[Pablo Torre]

Course. I mean, the money. When you follow the money, if you can, which is difficult for reasons that you guys have laid out, you do get to Apollo Global.

[Liz Franczak]

Management.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Insofar as one of the people who keeps showing up in this story, of course, is Leon Black, one of the heads of Apollo Global Management. And when you tell the story of Apollo, which is big private equity firm, you then get to a name in the files, and that name is Josh Harris. And so Josh Harris Brace is now quizzically looking at.

[Brace Belden]

Us. Oh, thank God. It's a sports thing. I was like, is this just a guy I didn't know.

[Pablo Torre]

About? He was one of the. Could be both one of the heads of Apollo Global Management, but he's also better known for our audience, I guess, as the owner of the Philadelphia 76ers, the New Jersey Devils and the Washington Commanders. He's the guy who has been apparently talking to the White House, back channeling with the White House about naming the commander's new stadium after Donald.

[Liz Franczak]

Trump. I didn't know.

[Pablo Torre]

That. Oh, yeah, that's happening. That's been the story that has been unfolding backstage. He was at the dinner with Mohammed bin Salman at the White House recently. And according to the schedule in the Epstein files from December 2014 that was released this fall by the House Oversight Committee, was listed as an invitee to a tentative breakfast with Jeffrey Epstein and Bill.

[Brace Belden]

Gates. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me.

[Pablo Torre]

Now. Did it happen? Did it not? It's simply listed on the docket for stuff that was set to happen. And he's also in. Did you guys see. I mean, of course you did, but like Michael Wolf's like writing.

[Brace Belden]

Like. Oh.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. And so just to clarify here, what popped up in one of the recent releases of Epstein emails was the almost 9,000 word draft of a New York Magazine magazine profile about Jeffrey Epstein, which was privately sent to Jeffrey Epstein ahead of publication by its author, Michael Wolff, which is, you know, this whole separate ethical problem for journalists to discuss later. But in this draft, Michael Wolf describes his experience observing a parade of global elites that were coming in and out of Epstein's New York mansion, the same mansion that Prince Andrew was, you know, too honorable to not stay at. This was a series of private meetings around 2014 years, in other words, after Epstein had pled guilty in Florida in 2008 to prostitution related charges involving a minor, and years after he was ruled a registered sex offender in 2011 in New York. And Wolf writes about watching luminaries like former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak come in for breakfast and then the former chief technology officer at Microsoft shows up and then, quote, Josh Harris, the co founder of Apollo Global Management, $164 billion under management and owner of the New Jersey Devils and the Philadelphia 76ers. Wolf continues, quote, perhaps it's just the ultimate feminist nightmare. Men and a few opportunistic women continue to come to Epstein's because no matter their public vows to modern manners, they simply don't care that he offends every aspect of reconstructed gender and political sensibilities. In private, it remains a man's world, a rich man's world, end quote. And so Josh Harris, say it again, sister. Is one of these, is one of these characters in this, in this play? Allegedly. And so I also need to say here that last week Pablo Torre finds out, reached out to a spokesman for Josh Harris, who faces no criminal accusations of any kind, for comment about the scheduled tentative meeting and alleged visit with Epstein. And he did not respond before our deadline. But this now brings us back to the fellow billionaire co founder of Apollo Global Management, the guy we mentioned before, whose association with Epstein was significantly more intimate. But Leon Black, speaking of like the money, you follow the money insofar as we can, and you're like, so Jeffrey Epstein got $158 million from Leon Black for tax.

[Liz Franczak]

Advice. Tax.

[Brace Belden]

Advice. Tax.

[Pablo Torre]

Advice. Tax and estate planning services. And I'm no billionaire, but $158 million seems like quite a bit tax.

[Liz Franczak]

Advice. Well, think how much he must have saved.

[Brace Belden]

Him. But don't.

[Liz Franczak]

Tax. That's the thing that's scary.

[Pablo Torre]

Right? That's a follow up question I would want to.

[Liz Franczak]

Ask. That's what I'm saying. You're paying someone $160 million, you got to know, well, how much did this guy save me? How much did I.

[Brace Belden]

Make? I think one thing that, that always blows My mind is. Jeffrey Epstein is said to have. I mean you're making $150 million from one. One client. Jeffrey Epstein staff doesn't really seem like they'd exist. Like he has various social secretaries but like there's not very many people or really anybody who is like yeah, I was Jeffrey Epstein's like I, I like, you know, I sort of. I interned at Jeffrey Epstein and like, you know, I was like a first year there. But like no, it's not. It's just apparently Jeffrey Epson when he's doing these lawyers and his lawyers. Yeah. Darren K. Indyke but who are still. Yeah, his. Yeah. Who are very sort of. I also don't think it was an examine enough but like it still. It seems like a rather small operation for such large amounts of.

[Liz Franczak]

Money. Well, that's how you keep all the.

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[Pablo Torre]

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[American Red Cross Announcer]

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[Pablo Torre]

[e-mail]. Thank you, by the way, for just taking time to watch to listen to the interview we did with Tom McMillan, who is the 6 foot 11 NBA player in.

[Brace Belden]

Question. Who was, I'd say 6, 9, but yeah, well.

[Pablo Torre]

611. In shoes, in shoes, in socks, combine measurement. Who was in the video that NBC took at Mar? A Lago where it's Epstein walking in and there is Donald Trump and he's ducking out from behind Epstein and Trump next to Ghislaine.

[Brace Belden]

Maxwell. What an interview. I think that interview was really good because I think it sort of showed a bunch of things both how Epstein operated with sort of this, like this like web of friends, how little anybody gave a that he got arrested for solicitation of a prosecutor. But really which was the official charge or whatever. But for actually, you know, sleeping with underage girls and how bad people's memories are when these things are brought up a couple decades.

[Pablo Torre]

Later. I mean, by the way, all of this putting into perspective the fact that here's a guy in the black book in the flight.

[Brace Belden]

Logs. Uh.

[Pablo Torre]

Huh. We also, I don't think he even mentioned this in the episode, but he also got political donations from Jeffrey.

[Brace Belden]

Epstein. I could tell that you were hinting at.

[Pablo Torre]

That.

[Liz Franczak]

Yeah. So it was really cut you off there at the.

[Brace Belden]

End. Please, can we move on? I mean this is just, I thought we were talking about sports and stuff. This was stuff 35 years ago. I don't have any relationships here. Moving on. So I'm going to leave I'm sorry that. I mean, I wanted to talk about the good.

[Pablo Torre]

Things. The brief catch up is just that, a thousand bucks. From Jeffrey Epstein to Tom McMillan when he ran for Congress, a Democrat in Maryland in 1990, in November, and then 2000. From Jeffrey Epstein to Tom McMillan. And this is labeled, by the way, February 18, 1992. And the organization Epstein is listed as part of is Wexner Investment. But one of the people who he is associated with, because she wrote an email to Jeffrey Epstein well after he was established as a registered sex offender, is this woman, Gwendolyn.

[Brace Belden]

Beck.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. And Gwendolyn Beck is also someone named by Virginia Giuffre as someone who participated in the orgies with Jeffrey Epstein and is in the flight logs more than a dozen times and has these emails. And she wrote this email to epstein about Tom McMillan subject line. Tom McMillan saying, I just met him, he had lost touch with you, want to get back in touch with you. On and on and on. I say that to say that from the Melania perspective, there's also photography. There's a photo of Gwendolyn Beck and Melania Trump and Prince.

[Liz Franczak]

Andrew. Like, it's.

[Pablo Torre]

Just. You see all of these people again, connected.

[Brace Belden]

Directly. Well, it's interesting, too, to bring up Gwendolyn Beck, I believe the orgy that Virginia Jeffrey is referring to with Prince Andrew and Geoffrey Epstein, the island, was also an orgy that took place with several young women that were brought over, possibly on student visas, by Jean Luc Brunel from Eastern Europe. And so Jean Luc Brunel, again, like, he was a. He was a. He got me too'd before you could even really get me to'd the.

[Pablo Torre]

Me first of me.

[Brace Belden]

Too. Yes, it was bad news, but he was able to resurrect his career in America with the help of a lot of people at powerful modeling agencies, including, of course, Jeffrey Epstein, who was connected to that. They form a company, Maxwell.

[Liz Franczak]

Engel. Maxwell, yeah, we're all such good.

[Pablo Torre]

Friends. But speaking of such company, of this network of people, if you heard our last episode, you may recall me discussing this blog entitled Hollywood on the Potomac, which once posted a video of Tom McMillan's birthday party, which happened to be hosted by a Democratic lobbyist named Tom Quinn, who was also featured in the Epstein flight logs, as he reported elsewhere on Hollywood on the Potomac on that blog. It turns out there is another post published in July 2012 about an email, an email apparently sent by Olympian and rhodes scholar Tom McMillan as a dispatch during the 2012 London Games opening ceremonies on Friday night. Saturday night, a Rhodes Scholar Party celebrating the 37 Rhodes Scholar Olympians and a black tie soiree with Fergie, Princess Beatrice and Prince Andrew and a very dashing crowd. End quote. And as I thought about that scene, it brought me back to Gwendolyn Beck because there is another email, another thing I just needed to show Grace and Liz before I let them go. Because the nonprofit investigative outlet Dropsite News has also been doing tremendous reporting on Jeffrey Epstein. And we'll link to their ongoing series in this episode's description. You should check it out. Last week the Dropsite very kindly shared a yet to be released wave of Epstein emails. This time from Epstein's Yahoo account with Pablo Torre finds out. And I found another email from Gwendolyn Beck and this was sent to Leslie Groff, who apparently was Jeffrey Epstein's assistant. One of many, one of many. And this is 2006 and Gwendolyn Beck wrote an email. And it is this kind of beautiful summation of the asymmetry between the emails that Jeffrey Epstein was receiving and the emails that were being sent in return. There's a big difference in how much people would like write paragraphs and paragraphs. And in this pitch from Gwendolyn Beck, who for the record has not responded to any of our requests for commentary in any of our reporting, starting with Tom McMillan through to now, she pitches him on a product quote. Hi Jeffrey, Miss you. Exclamation point. Hope all is well. I'm heading to South America for the holidays to explore new regions. Parentheses and yes, I will be staying with an Argentinian polo player for a few days. And parentheses, dot, dot, dot. Have been working with a group of investors to fund small companies. Parentheses, goat's milk ice cream, etc. Dot, dot, close parentheses. And ran across a company with such huge potential that I wanted to see if you're interested before I give it to them. Parentheses. Because I really like you a lot better. Close parentheses. The product basically shrinks the walls of the vagina. Dash dash, dash takes 20 years off. Parentheses. Forget Botox, close parentheses. It really works. Open parentheses. However, I wish it was permanent. Close parentheses. Period. They are in the development stage, comma, still doing clinical trials and have a patent pending. Let me know if you have any interest in the deal. She goes on to give a name for the product. Some blogs if you Google, period. Lots and lots of love. Love, capital L comma, Gwendolyn. The response from Jeffrey Epstein to his assistant, meant to presumably be returned to Gwendolyn Beck is sounds goo debut. I.

[Brace Belden]

Can'T so what's the name of the.

[Pablo Torre]

Product? I'll tell you off.

[Brace Belden]

Air. Did it ever come.

[Pablo Torre]

Out?

[Brace Belden]

Yes. Jesus Christ. Yeah, I think that just about sums it up. At Jeffrey Epstein's emails, the ones that he send barely are rarely over a sentence or two. And I think that maybe. I don't know if there's a single one that has a fully grammatically.

[Liz Franczak]

Correct.

[Brace Belden]

Yeah. Sentence using all the right punctuation, everything like that at.

[Liz Franczak]

All. He's a.

[Pablo Torre]

Modernist. If you want to measure someone's power, you measure it in the difference between the effort someone puts into emailing you. Oh, yeah. And the lack of effort you put in to.

[Brace Belden]

Respond. It's.

[Liz Franczak]

Amazing. It is a kind of a power move. You're totally right. And almost every email of his sent from my iPad.

[Pablo Torre]

Brace. Liz this has been.

[Brace Belden]

Goo. This has been.

[Liz Franczak]

Goo. This has been.

[Pablo Torre]

Goo. Thank you for coming by the.

[Brace Belden]

Studio. Thank you for having.

[Pablo Torre]

Us. This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production and I'll talk to you next.

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[Pablo Torre]

Details. Dreaming of getting the all new iPhone 17 Pro designed to be the most powerful iPhone.

[Liz Franczak]

Ever. Then stay in bed and let a boost mobile expert deliver and set it up for.

[Verizon Advertiser]

You. Oh, actually they will have to get up and open the.

[Brace Belden]

Door. Oh.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. Delivery available for select devices [e-mail] terms apply. Knock.

[Brace Belden]

Knock. Ooh, who's.

[Liz Franczak]

There? A boost mobile expert here to deliver and set up your all new iPhone 17 Pro designed to be the most powerful iPhone.

[Pablo Torre]

Ever. You called that a knock knock.

[Liz Franczak]

Joke. This isn't a joke. Boost mobile really sends experts to deliver and set up your phone at home or.

[Pablo Torre]

Work. Okay, it's just that when people say knock knock, there's usually a joke to go with.

[Liz Franczak]

It. Like I said, this isn't a.

[Pablo Torre]

Joke. So the knock knock was just you.

[Liz Franczak]

Knocking? Yeah, that's how doors.

[Pablo Torre]

Work. Get the new iPhone 17 Pro delivered and set up by an expert wherever you are. Delivery available for select devices purchased at boostmobile.com, terms.

[American Red Cross Announcer]

Apply. This holiday season, millions of families will pack their bags, load up the car and head off for a family vacation. But not every trip is going to be somewhere fun. The American Red Cross responds to about 7,000 emergencies during the holiday season alone, from home fires to natural disasters, providing families a safe place to go when the unthinkable happens. But they can't do it without your support. Please.