Pablo Torre Finds Out:

"Six Degrees of Jeffrey Epstein, with the Experts of TrueAnon"

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out (The Athletic)
Date: December 16, 2025
Guests: Liz Franczak & Brace Belden (TrueAnon)

Overview

This episode takes listeners on an irreverent yet deeply-researched journey through the sprawling, endlessly strange saga of Jeffrey Epstein and the persistent connections between the billionaire sex trafficker, global elites, politicians, and the world of sports. Pablo Torre is joined in studio by Brace Belden and Liz Franczak, hosts of the cult-favorite investigative podcast TrueAnon, for an incisive and at times darkly funny discussion on why the Epstein story refuses to die, what “the list” really means, and how the scandal’s tentacles keep reaching into places of power — including the billionaires behind major sports franchises.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Meet the Guests and Introduce the Scandal

[02:08] Pablo welcomes Liz and Brace, highlighting TrueAnon’s origins in Epstein coverage and poking fun at their colorful backgrounds.
- "Brace is a 6’4’’ highly accomplished basketball player." — Liz Franczak
- "Liz knows ball — about topics that aren’t ball, I think just being smart." — Brace Belden
[03:36] Pablo fact-checks their resumes, confirming Brace’s Syrian Civil War adventure and Liz’s sports expertise.

2. Why the Epstein Story Keeps Coming Back

[05:12] Pablo explains the return of Epstein files: new photos, documents, and public intrigue.
[06:00-06:49] The co-hosts look back on the feeling that things were wrapping up after the Ghislaine Maxwell trial, only for a new flood of documents and revelations to surface in 2024–25.
- "This year has just been a flood." — Liz Franczak [06:35]
[07:31-08:51] They detail the rare bipartisan nature of the scandal, with both parties struggling to weaponize it because of deep, mutual entanglements.
- "It’s funny because... both Trump and Hillary Clinton were not only like, friends with Epstein, but good friends. It’s the classic Spider-man meme." — Liz Franczak & Brace Belden [09:03]

3. The “Epstein List” & Political Media Games

[09:31] Analysis of Epstein's role as a "shibboleth" (or “totem”) in right-wing media — memes, t-shirts, and the constant push for "the list."
- “Would you declassify the Epstein files?—Yeah, I would, I guess I would… There’s a lot of phony stuff with that whole world.” — Donald Trump, referenced by Brace [10:35]
[11:15] JD Vance tweets calling out journalists for not taking Epstein seriously — which Pablo admits, in a meta way, is part of his reason for pursuing this reporting.
- "If you're a journalist and you’re not asking questions about this case, you should be ashamed of yourself.” — JD Vance, quoted by Pablo [11:31]
- "You're hoisting yourself up on his petard." — Brace Belden [12:41]
[13:00-13:29] The shifting ownership of the scandal: now Democrats are deep into the files, desperate for ammo against Trump, but the whole thing is a ‘hot potato’ for both parties.

4. Inside the Epstein-Maxwell Nexus & Origins

[16:03] Deep dive into Ghislaine Maxwell’s background, her father Robert Maxwell (spy, publisher, suspected Mossad asset), and the elite, tangled worlds they navigated.
- "He was a rival of Murdoch, doing backdoor intelligence and diplomatic work… big international networker." — Brace Belden [16:03]
- The mysterious death of Robert Maxwell, falling off his yacht (previously owned by arms dealer Khashoggi, bought by Trump later).
[18:48] The beginnings of the Epstein–Maxwell relationship, forged at her father’s memorial, and their subsequent rise as a “power couple.”
[20:28] Ghislaine’s claim they never slept together, supposedly due to Epstein’s infamous “egg-shaped penis” (a meme, but also a recurring courtroom theme).
- “I mean, Jeffrey Epstein — there are allegations that he has a either egg or as we’ve recently learned, maybe perhaps lemon-shaped penis…” — Brace Belden [20:42]
[21:49] The mechanics of Epstein's crimes: the “massage” stories, grades of abuse, and a six-massages-a-day routine as a sinister cover.
- "He was getting massages from adults, too, but he was also getting these..." — Liz Franczak [22:42]
[23:00] Les Wexner, billionaire owner of Victoria’s Secret and Ohio State’s football complex, emerges as key to Epstein’s financial ascent.
- “We don’t really know how Epstein made his money…or how much he made.” — Brace Belden [23:17]

5. How Sports Gets Pulled In

[24:14] Epstein and Wexner’s link to Ohio State sports, raising the scandal’s “six degrees” connections.
- “It’s the Les Wexner football complex at Ohio State.” — Pablo [24:14]
- Epstein’s association used by alumni demanding Wexner’s testimony in the school’s sex abuse scandal.
[26:27] The world of modeling as an access point to power, and its overlaps with both Trump and Epstein.
- “There’s the rumor, of course, Melania ... that Epstein introduced her to Trump; it’s within the realm of possibility.” — Brace [26:29]
[40:24-41:33] Private equity titan Josh Harris—owner of the Philly 76ers, NJ Devils & Washington Commanders—appears on Epstein’s calendar for a tentative breakfast with Epstein and Bill Gates.
- “He was listed as an invitee to a tentative breakfast with Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Gates.” — Pablo [41:09]
[44:31] Leon Black (Apollo Global), who paid Epstein $158M for “tax advice,” and the lack of substantive answers about the money trail.
- “Jeffrey Epstein got $158M from Leon Black for tax advice… I’m no billionaire, but…” — Pablo [44:31]

6. Prince Andrew’s Infamy & The Power of Royal Denial

[32:20-36:56] A hilarious but biting breakdown of Prince Andrew’s infamous BBC Newsnight interview and the “I don’t sweat” defense.
- “He has a peculiar medical condition which is that I don't sweat or I didn't sweat at the time.” — Prince Andrew [36:12]
- “He got a lot of flack for that, but I gotta tell you — saying you hung out with a pedophile because you’re too honorable is...the first person in history to use this excuse.” — Brace [34:30]

7. The Email Power Dynamics of the Elite

[55:10-56:27] Pablo reveals a particularly strange email pitch to Epstein: a product to rejuvenate the vagina, met with Epstein’s laconic “sounds goo debut” response.
They reflect on how the power of the elite is reflected in how much more effort people put into emailing them than they do in response.
- “If you want to measure someone’s power, you measure it in the difference between the effort someone puts into emailing you and the lack of effort you put into responding.” — Pablo [56:14]
- "It is kind of a power move. Almost every email of his: sent from my iPad." — Liz [56:27]

Notable Quotes, Moments, & Exchanges

On the inescapable, bipartisan stink of the case:
“It was a hot potato for everyone involved…each party had such close connections.”
— Liz Franczak [07:49]
On the meme-ification of Epstein:
"Epstein sort of became this shibboleth in right wing media…Epstein didn’t kill himself t-shirts…It really became, to Trump’s chagrin, part of his campaign.”
— Brace Belden [09:31]
On Ghislaine and Jeffrey’s power couple dynamics:
“They get together after her dad dies — classic time to get with a woman.” — Brace [20:11]
(Liz, audibly groaning: “Liz for the audio-only audience is shaking her head.”)
On the six degrees of Epstein:
"Josh Harris…listed as an invitee to a tentative breakfast with Epstein and Bill Gates." — Pablo [41:09]
On Prince Andrew’s “sweat” excuse:
"Saying you hung out with a pedophile because you’re too honorable is, I think, probably the first person in history to use this excuse." — Brace [34:30]
“She described dancing with you and you profusely sweating…” — BBC Interviewer [36:12]

Timestamps for Key Segments

[02:08] — TrueAnon on Epstein’s omnipresence; intros
[03:36] — Pablo’s fact-check: who are Liz & Brace?
[05:12] — The return of the Epstein flood: new documents, political stakes
[09:31] — Epstein as a culture war totem; the “Epstein List”
[16:03] — Ghislaine Maxwell’s spy dynasty background
[20:28] — The “egg-shaped” meme & the mechanics of Epstein’s crimes
[23:00–24:14] — Les Wexner: financial origin story; links to college sports
[26:26] — Modeling world: Epstein’s “casting couch”, link to Melania
[32:20–36:56] — Prince Andrew’s infamous defense (“I don’t sweat”)
[40:24–41:33] — Private equity, pro sports, and the Epstein files: Josh Harris & Leon Black
[48:31–50:04] — Interview with Tom McMillan: flight logs, political donations
[55:10] — The power asymmetry of elite email correspondence

Tone & Style

The conversation is equal parts investigative rigor, darkly comic banter, and cultural commentary. Brace and Liz bring TrueAnon’s signature blend of research-backed insight and irreverent humor, while Pablo keeps the discussion rooted in sports, politics, and media with a journalist’s curiosity.

Conclusion

This deep-dive episode blends hard reporting with sharp wit, exposing both the shocking scope and the absurdity of the Epstein web. Whether through modeling, college football, or the royal family, Epstein appears everywhere power does — and the journalists, podcasters, and publics keep following the connections, however circuitous, as the scandal refuses to disappear.

For More:

TrueAnon Podcast
Miami Herald’s Julie K. Brown reporting
Dropsite News investigative series (linked in episode description)
Pablo Torre’s prior episodes on the Epstein files and six degrees of elite scandal

Note: Ads, intros, and outros omitted per instructions. All sections and quotes timestamped for listener reference.

Pablo Torre Finds Out:

"Six Degrees of Jeffrey Epstein, with the Experts of TrueAnon"

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out (The Athletic)
Date: December 16, 2025
Guests: Liz Franczak & Brace Belden (TrueAnon)

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Meet the Guests and Introduce the Scandal

[02:08] Pablo welcomes Liz and Brace, highlighting TrueAnon’s origins in Epstein coverage and poking fun at their colorful backgrounds.
- "Brace is a 6’4’’ highly accomplished basketball player." — Liz Franczak
- "Liz knows ball — about topics that aren’t ball, I think just being smart." — Brace Belden
[03:36] Pablo fact-checks their resumes, confirming Brace’s Syrian Civil War adventure and Liz’s sports expertise.

2. Why the Epstein Story Keeps Coming Back

[05:12] Pablo explains the return of Epstein files: new photos, documents, and public intrigue.
[06:00-06:49] The co-hosts look back on the feeling that things were wrapping up after the Ghislaine Maxwell trial, only for a new flood of documents and revelations to surface in 2024–25.
- "This year has just been a flood." — Liz Franczak [06:35]
[07:31-08:51] They detail the rare bipartisan nature of the scandal, with both parties struggling to weaponize it because of deep, mutual entanglements.
- "It’s funny because... both Trump and Hillary Clinton were not only like, friends with Epstein, but good friends. It’s the classic Spider-man meme." — Liz Franczak & Brace Belden [09:03]

3. The “Epstein List” & Political Media Games

[09:31] Analysis of Epstein's role as a "shibboleth" (or “totem”) in right-wing media — memes, t-shirts, and the constant push for "the list."
- “Would you declassify the Epstein files?—Yeah, I would, I guess I would… There’s a lot of phony stuff with that whole world.” — Donald Trump, referenced by Brace [10:35]
[11:15] JD Vance tweets calling out journalists for not taking Epstein seriously — which Pablo admits, in a meta way, is part of his reason for pursuing this reporting.
- "If you're a journalist and you’re not asking questions about this case, you should be ashamed of yourself.” — JD Vance, quoted by Pablo [11:31]
- "You're hoisting yourself up on his petard." — Brace Belden [12:41]
[13:00-13:29] The shifting ownership of the scandal: now Democrats are deep into the files, desperate for ammo against Trump, but the whole thing is a ‘hot potato’ for both parties.

4. Inside the Epstein-Maxwell Nexus & Origins

[16:03] Deep dive into Ghislaine Maxwell’s background, her father Robert Maxwell (spy, publisher, suspected Mossad asset), and the elite, tangled worlds they navigated.
- "He was a rival of Murdoch, doing backdoor intelligence and diplomatic work… big international networker." — Brace Belden [16:03]
- The mysterious death of Robert Maxwell, falling off his yacht (previously owned by arms dealer Khashoggi, bought by Trump later).
[18:48] The beginnings of the Epstein–Maxwell relationship, forged at her father’s memorial, and their subsequent rise as a “power couple.”
[20:28] Ghislaine’s claim they never slept together, supposedly due to Epstein’s infamous “egg-shaped penis” (a meme, but also a recurring courtroom theme).
- “I mean, Jeffrey Epstein — there are allegations that he has a either egg or as we’ve recently learned, maybe perhaps lemon-shaped penis…” — Brace Belden [20:42]
[21:49] The mechanics of Epstein's crimes: the “massage” stories, grades of abuse, and a six-massages-a-day routine as a sinister cover.
- "He was getting massages from adults, too, but he was also getting these..." — Liz Franczak [22:42]
[23:00] Les Wexner, billionaire owner of Victoria’s Secret and Ohio State’s football complex, emerges as key to Epstein’s financial ascent.
- “We don’t really know how Epstein made his money…or how much he made.” — Brace Belden [23:17]

5. How Sports Gets Pulled In

[24:14] Epstein and Wexner’s link to Ohio State sports, raising the scandal’s “six degrees” connections.
- “It’s the Les Wexner football complex at Ohio State.” — Pablo [24:14]
- Epstein’s association used by alumni demanding Wexner’s testimony in the school’s sex abuse scandal.
[26:27] The world of modeling as an access point to power, and its overlaps with both Trump and Epstein.
- “There’s the rumor, of course, Melania ... that Epstein introduced her to Trump; it’s within the realm of possibility.” — Brace [26:29]
[40:24-41:33] Private equity titan Josh Harris—owner of the Philly 76ers, NJ Devils & Washington Commanders—appears on Epstein’s calendar for a tentative breakfast with Epstein and Bill Gates.
- “He was listed as an invitee to a tentative breakfast with Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Gates.” — Pablo [41:09]
[44:31] Leon Black (Apollo Global), who paid Epstein $158M for “tax advice,” and the lack of substantive answers about the money trail.
- “Jeffrey Epstein got $158M from Leon Black for tax advice… I’m no billionaire, but…” — Pablo [44:31]

6. Prince Andrew’s Infamy & The Power of Royal Denial

[32:20-36:56] A hilarious but biting breakdown of Prince Andrew’s infamous BBC Newsnight interview and the “I don’t sweat” defense.
- “He has a peculiar medical condition which is that I don't sweat or I didn't sweat at the time.” — Prince Andrew [36:12]
- “He got a lot of flack for that, but I gotta tell you — saying you hung out with a pedophile because you’re too honorable is...the first person in history to use this excuse.” — Brace [34:30]

7. The Email Power Dynamics of the Elite

[55:10-56:27] Pablo reveals a particularly strange email pitch to Epstein: a product to rejuvenate the vagina, met with Epstein’s laconic “sounds goo debut” response.
They reflect on how the power of the elite is reflected in how much more effort people put into emailing them than they do in response.
- “If you want to measure someone’s power, you measure it in the difference between the effort someone puts into emailing you and the lack of effort you put into responding.” — Pablo [56:14]
- "It is kind of a power move. Almost every email of his: sent from my iPad." — Liz [56:27]

Notable Quotes, Moments, & Exchanges

On the inescapable, bipartisan stink of the case:
“It was a hot potato for everyone involved…each party had such close connections.”
— Liz Franczak [07:49]
On the meme-ification of Epstein:
"Epstein sort of became this shibboleth in right wing media…Epstein didn’t kill himself t-shirts…It really became, to Trump’s chagrin, part of his campaign.”
— Brace Belden [09:31]
On Ghislaine and Jeffrey’s power couple dynamics:
“They get together after her dad dies — classic time to get with a woman.” — Brace [20:11]
(Liz, audibly groaning: “Liz for the audio-only audience is shaking her head.”)
On the six degrees of Epstein:
"Josh Harris…listed as an invitee to a tentative breakfast with Epstein and Bill Gates." — Pablo [41:09]
On Prince Andrew’s “sweat” excuse:
"Saying you hung out with a pedophile because you’re too honorable is, I think, probably the first person in history to use this excuse." — Brace [34:30]
“She described dancing with you and you profusely sweating…” — BBC Interviewer [36:12]

Timestamps for Key Segments

[02:08] — TrueAnon on Epstein’s omnipresence; intros
[03:36] — Pablo’s fact-check: who are Liz & Brace?
[05:12] — The return of the Epstein flood: new documents, political stakes
[09:31] — Epstein as a culture war totem; the “Epstein List”
[16:03] — Ghislaine Maxwell’s spy dynasty background
[20:28] — The “egg-shaped” meme & the mechanics of Epstein’s crimes
[23:00–24:14] — Les Wexner: financial origin story; links to college sports
[26:26] — Modeling world: Epstein’s “casting couch”, link to Melania
[32:20–36:56] — Prince Andrew’s infamous defense (“I don’t sweat”)
[40:24–41:33] — Private equity, pro sports, and the Epstein files: Josh Harris & Leon Black
[48:31–50:04] — Interview with Tom McMillan: flight logs, political donations
[55:10] — The power asymmetry of elite email correspondence

Tone & Style

Conclusion

For More:

TrueAnon Podcast
Miami Herald’s Julie K. Brown reporting
Dropsite News investigative series (linked in episode description)
Pablo Torre’s prior episodes on the Epstein files and six degrees of elite scandal

Note: Ads, intros, and outros omitted per instructions. All sections and quotes timestamped for listener reference.

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Six Degrees of Jeffrey Epstein, with the Experts of TrueAnon

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Summary

Pablo Torre Finds Out:

"Six Degrees of Jeffrey Epstein, with the Experts of TrueAnon"

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Meet the Guests and Introduce the Scandal

2. Why the Epstein Story Keeps Coming Back

3. The “Epstein List” & Political Media Games

4. Inside the Epstein-Maxwell Nexus & Origins

5. How Sports Gets Pulled In

6. Prince Andrew’s Infamy & The Power of Royal Denial

7. The Email Power Dynamics of the Elite

Notable Quotes, Moments, & Exchanges

Timestamps for Key Segments

Tone & Style

Conclusion

Summary

Pablo Torre Finds Out:

"Six Degrees of Jeffrey Epstein, with the Experts of TrueAnon"

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Meet the Guests and Introduce the Scandal

2. Why the Epstein Story Keeps Coming Back

3. The “Epstein List” & Political Media Games

4. Inside the Epstein-Maxwell Nexus & Origins

5. How Sports Gets Pulled In

6. Prince Andrew’s Infamy & The Power of Royal Denial

7. The Email Power Dynamics of the Elite

Notable Quotes, Moments, & Exchanges

Timestamps for Key Segments

Tone & Style

Conclusion