Steve Ballmer's Victim Impact, the Man Who Prosecuted Aspiration and the Abacus of Incarceration: Kawhi-Gate, Part X

Summary

Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode: Steve Ballmer's Victim Impact, the Man Who Prosecuted Aspiration and the Abacus of Incarceration: Kawhi-Gate, Part X

Date: May 5, 2026

Host: Pablo Torre (with David Sampson and guest Lou Manzo, former DOJ prosecutor)

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Episode Overview

This episode continues Pablo Torre’s deep investigative “Kawhi-Gate” series, focusing on the financial fraud scandal involving Clippers owner Steve Ballmer, the now-convicted Aspiration co-founder Joe Sandberg, questionable sponsorship payments to Kawhi Leonard, and the legal and NBA ramifications. The episode’s centerpiece is the dissection of Ballmer’s unusual “victim impact statement,” the ensuing intrigue around the NBA’s own involvement, and legal context provided by Lou Manzo—the prosecutor who originally opened the federal investigation into Aspiration. The conversation explores the dynamics between corporate victimhood, legal maneuvering, public perception, and the unresolved NBA investigation.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introducing Lou Manzo and Setting the Stage

[03:31 - 09:10]

• Lou Manzo is welcomed as a pivotal new character: a former DOJ attorney who started the Aspiration investigation.
• Pablo recounts how whistleblower documents and Lou’s early involvement led to DOJ scrutiny, which formed the backbone of this podcast series.
• Lou Manzo: “I was shocked when I heard the first one because I hadn't thought about this case in a long time.” (04:43)

2. The Whistleblower Complaint and Launching of the Investigation

[09:10 - 12:47]

• Aspiration fraud investigation began after two employees filed a whistleblower complaint to the SEC, DOJ, and CFTC, detailing, among other issues, a $32M account used by the Clippers.
• The complaint alleged payments to Kawhi Leonard were disguised as marketing to circumvent NBA salary rules.
• David Sampson reads from the complaint: “…to circumvent the NBA salary cap, disguised as an organic marketing sponsorship agreement.” (10:29)
• Lou explains legal mechanisms: disaster, data analysis, and whistleblowers are common DOJ case initiators.

3. DOJ Priorities: Fraud vs. Salary Cap Circumvention

[12:47 - 13:53]

• DOJ is mandated to pursue “the most serious and readily provable offense”—in this case, financial fraud far outweighs NBA policy violations for prosecution.
• Lou Manzo: “That's what every prosecutor is told to do. The most serious readily provable offense is typically the easiest to prove fraud.” (12:47)

4. Ballmer’s Unusual Victim Impact Statement

[18:34 - 29:49]

• Victim impact statements: Used to inform the court about the victim’s perspective; legally non-binding but influential.
• Ballmer’s letter claims Torre’s reporting is based on “anonymized gossip,” accuses Joe Sandberg of fraud, and frames Ballmer as a victim.
• Ballmer Legal Quote:

  “Mr. Ballmer's connection to Sandberg is what caused Pablo Torre to launch a relentless vitriolic public campaign against Mr. Ballmer, alleging…that Mr. Ballmer conspired…” (20:39 - 21:32)

• Pablo and panel dissect the legal and media strategy, not just the courtroom impact:
  • “This might not have been just for the judge…It might have been for the court of public opinion or…Adam Silver.” (22:13)

5. The NBA’s Letter Supporting Sandberg’s Cooperation

[30:11 - 35:48]

• David Anders, leading NBA investigator, submitted a letter to the sentencing judge, affirming Joe Sandberg "substantially assisted" the NBA’s own investigation.
• Wachtell Lipton’s letter: Sandberg’s info “consistent with our review of contemporaneous documents and other evidence” and cooperation was “voluntary”.
• Lou Manzo: “’Substantial assistance’…is a term of art. That’s a hot button word…the judge would pick up on [regarding leniency at sentencing].” (33:29)

6. Was Ballmer Truly a Victim—or a Complicit Player?

[37:25 - 44:20]

• The podcast reviews Ballmer’s claims of limited Sandberg contact, juxtaposed with years of documented financial ties, previous donations, and early connections between Ballmer's charitable organizations and Sandberg.
• Pablo highlights inconsistencies and evidence: Ballmer’s donations, sponsorship deals, and a timeline that contradicts Ballmer’s supposed unfamiliarity with Sandberg pre-2021.
• Lou Manzo (regarding Ballmer's continued donations):

  “No, it does not make any iota of sense to invest in 2021…claim all of that to be lost in 2023, and then come back for more in 2024. …Maybe Steve Ballmer is a secret masochist.” (47:24)

7. Victims Can Be Complex

[48:13 - 49:04]

• Manzo acknowledges that individuals can be both victims and perpetrators, and two things can be true at once.
• Lou Manzo: “There are many cases…where victims can both be a perpetrator and a traditional sense of victim. …Two things are almost always true at the same time.” (48:37 - 49:04)

8. The Sentencing Hearing: Ballmer’s Profile and Judicial Bafflement

[53:27 - 58:48]

• Court reporter notes: Judge Wilson appears unfamiliar with Ballmer:
  “Who's Steve Ballmer?” (57:57)
• The episode details the legal confusion amid high-profile media attention, re-scheduling of sentencing, and lack of immediate resolution.
• The sentencing hearing is postponed; DOJ and defense required to submit further memos.

9. Broader Fallout and Continuing Investigations

[59:48 - 63:54]

• The real-life consequences for average investors (ordinary victims) are recounted, with sadness over lives upended.
• The SEC’s investigation is ongoing, with DOJ’s criminal probe wrapping up but future cooperation (or sentencing reductions) still possible.
• Lou Manzo on post-sentencing cooperation:

  “Anything is always on the table…you are eligible for what's called a Rule 35 reduction…So the process can always change.” (61:53)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the Ballmer Letter’s Audience:
  “This might not have been just for the judge…I dare say it might have been for the court of public opinion, or the court of Adam Silver.” – Pablo Torre, (22:13 – 22:19)
• Legal Satire on Ballmer's Narrative:
  "Steve Ballmer's kink is being robbed." – Pablo Torre, (48:01)
• Lou Manzo’s Classic Prosecutor Insight:
  “Victims can be very complicated. …Two things are almost always true at the same time.” (48:37 – 49:04)
• The Judge’s Indifference:
  Judge Wilson: “Who's Steve Ballmer?” (57:57)
• On Continuing Risk for the NBA:
  “If you're the NBA…what could the government do to embarrass us? This feels like a book they wish would close…” – Pablo Torre, (62:56)

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Important Timestamps & Segments

| Time | Key Segment/Quote | |------------|---------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:31 | Introduction of Lou Manzo (former DOJ prosecutor) | | 10:29 | Reading from whistleblower complaint (Kawhi bonus fraud) | | 13:04 | DOJ criminal priorities explained | | 18:34 | What is a ‘victim impact statement’? | | 21:32 | Ballmer’s letter targets Pablo Torre and “anonymized gossip” | | 30:11 | NBA’s letter confirming Sandberg’s cooperation (5K/assistance)| | 47:24 | Lou speculates Ballmer may be “a secret masochist” | | 48:37 | Can a victim also be a perpetrator? | | 57:57 | Judge Wilson: “Who’s Steve Ballmer?” | | 61:04 | DOJ vs. SEC, ongoing investigations | | 61:53 | Rule 35 reductions & future cooperation explained |

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Tone & Language

The episode blends Pablo’s wry, sometimes irreverent, journalistic tone with legal sagacity and comedic asides from both Sampson and Manzo. There’s both earnest legal exegesis and playful mocking of corporate and court culture, packaged as a “talkumentary.”

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode provides a comprehensive, accessible window into the cascading legal drama surrounding the Clippers’ Aspiration scandal—a knotty saga involving whistleblower activism, federal prosecutors, high-priced NBA intrigue, and the gray areas of corporate victimhood. It’s essential listening for fans of sports business, investigative journalism, or legal process, with plenty of insight (and mockery) regarding how justice and reputation management truly work in high-stakes American sports.

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For those following the saga, the next development will be the rescheduled sentencing of Joe Sandberg, but, as always with PTFO, the story is just getting more interesting.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[David Sampson]

Who's Steve Ballmer?

[Pablo Torre]

Right after this ad. Right now, you're probably listening to this podcast on a wireless network. The same wireless network that you and all your friends use to swipe, scroll, and hopefully download the latest episode of Pablo Torre Finds Out. But if you're a first responder, you should not have to compete with my voice to get a clear signal. And that is exactly why AT&T built FirstNet, a clear wireless lane built with and for first responders. So in an emergency, first responders get there first. Because a network that's not just for anyone helps everyone. To learn more, go to firstnet.com or visit an AT&T store for details. Close your eyes. Listen to Monday.com feel the sensation of

[David Sampson]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Pablo Torre]

I just heard something that completely shocked me, which is that 45% of girls and 32% of boys feel overwhelming stress from just being on social media. And together, 25% of both feel worse about their own lives. Researchers found teens who spend more than five hours a day on their phones are at double the risk for suicidal thoughts. Bottom line, teens and phones don't mix. And with a daughter myself, I am constantly worried about when she reaches an age where we'll have to have the phone talk. But here's the good news. There is a solution. A company called Gab, which has solved the problem by doing something that no one else is doing. Their approach is tech in steps. Tech in Steps works by providing safer phones and watches for kids with no social media. Tailored to every age, offering the right device at the right time. From GPS tracking enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent enabled apps for tweens and teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. You don't have to give your kid a device that was made for an adult. Get them Gab, which keeps them socially connected without social media. And right now, you can use our code to get 60% off a kid's phone. That will make parenting easier and give you more peace of mind. That's why I am recommending Gabby. Visit gab.comptfo and use code PTFO for an exclusive offer. That's Gab. Gabb. How tall are you, Lou?

[Lou Manzo]

I used to be six, three. But I'm. I'm shrinking.

[David Sampson]

Shrinking.

[Lou Manzo]

I'm shrinking. Already I'm old, 41.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, God.

[Lou Manzo]

Yeah, it's all falling apart.

[David Sampson]

I plan on being 6:3 when I'm 61.

[Lou Manzo]

Okay. Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

Going to get that leg lengthening surgery.

[David Sampson]

I thought about it. Turns out it hurts. Yeah, it doesn't work.

[Pablo Torre]

We're not here to talk about breaking your own legs to get a couple more inches. Although there is certainly a metaphor in there somewhere for us. I want to point out that like on screen right now, David looks like a hobbit next to Lou Manzo, who looks like Captain America.

[David Sampson]

Cuz it. They do it just so you know. Welcome to the studio. But the way they work it is. My chair never goes higher.

[Lou Manzo]

Yes.

[David Sampson]

Because it's some sort of power thing with Pablo and with the guests. They like to have it. And if you look at the picture of the three of us, it's an outrage.

[Lou Manzo]

Lyndon Johnson did the same thing. And you know Pablo is right up there with him in terms of great Americans.

[Pablo Torre]

Our guest of honor is here. David. It's rare we get a new character introduced into this series. I spend my life combing through documents, talking to all of these people that it turns out have become federal witnesses in an investigation that was started midway through 2023. And the name that keeps on coming up belongs to the guy at the table with us. Welcome lou Manzo, former DOJ prosecutor.

[David Sampson]

You took his call.

[Lou Manzo]

I saw a LinkedIn message among a lot of spam and. And I. I laughed to myself. I said, is this the real Pablo Torre?

[David Sampson]

And here you are.

[Lou Manzo]

And here I am. Yes. But it's good to see you in person.

[Pablo Torre]

Slightly different movie I was living in. A bit more dramatic, but it's true.

[Lou Manzo]

I was walking my dog. I saw the message. I screenshotted it, sent it to a friend with Lolz and said I was wondering if he was going to reach out.

[Pablo Torre]

Meanwhile, I think we're doing that scene in Heat. Finally, sitting across the table.

[Lou Manzo]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to establish a couple things here, which is Lou has listened to the episodes. You, you know David Sampson, you know me. You have been. I guess I have. You enjoyed listening.

[Lou Manzo]

I was shocked when I heard the first one because I hadn't thought about this case in a long time and I kind of laughed to myself. So I'm pretty up to date on everything and have enjoyed your journalism. There's not a lot of real investigative journalists out there.

[David Sampson]

Can we set one ground rule? Can you try not to feed his ego too much?

[Pablo Torre]

Stop it.

[David Sampson]

If possible.

[Pablo Torre]

Hold on.

[David Sampson]

People come in and out of this room and that's what you do.

[Lou Manzo]

You gotta do it. I know.

[David Sampson]

And we're stuck holding the bag.

[Lou Manzo]

Yeah.

[David Sampson]

Long after you leave.

[Pablo Torre]

This is a special episode in our aspirations series in a key sense because, David, ostensibly you've been my attorney, but now we have Lou, who.

[Lou Manzo]

Who I'm definitely not your attorney, just to be clear about that.

[Pablo Torre]

But.

[Lou Manzo]

But you are an avid listener.

[Pablo Torre]

You're an avid listener, but more than that, you're a character in the story that predates us by years, I should say. We are waiting still to find out if the NBA's investigation into the Clippers into Aspiration, into Kawhi Leonard is turn up anything that we have not covered in our now 10 parts of this investigation. We're going to ostensibly find out at some point whether Adam Silver will punish the richest owner in the NBA and or the superstar who just had an all NBA season for the Clippers and is now rumored to be one of the most valuable trade targets in the league, absent maybe NBA punishment. But the thing that the NBA has also been waiting on is an event that I've been monitoring, waiting for, for about the last year. And it has to do with the guy that Steve Ballmer is most concerned about. This person is not me, to be very clear about this. It is the guy by the name

[David Sampson]

of what, David, I'm gonna say his first name could be Joe.

[Lou Manzo]

So joining me now is Joe Samberg. And Joe's got a great career track record, not only in business, but also in fighting for things like the earned income tax credit and politics. Joe, welcome to the program.

[Pablo Torre]

Thanks for having me.

[Lou Manzo]

Yeah. So, Joe, some folks have even compared you to Howard Schultz because you both grew up poor and you both did well for yourselves. And there's been some speculation that you might both run for president. Okay, so before I get to Howard, let me ask you. Okay. Might you run for president? Maybe.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, even more than that, Joe Sandberg, the guy that Ballmer did nine figures of business with in totality across personal investment and sponsorship deals and carbon credit purchases. The co founder of Aspiration, who has been of course now on the record as pleading guilty to wire fraud.

[David Sampson]

He's been indicted and awaiting sentencing.

[Pablo Torre]

And we're going to get inside the courtroom, by the way, to preview the prison sentencing of Joe Sandberg. We had a reporter there in that courthouse in la, but we are talking with the guy at the table who launched the federal investigation into Aspiration.

[Lou Manzo]

Thanks, Pablo. It's quite an introduction.

[David Sampson]

Did it just come on your desk? I'm fascinated by this.

[Lou Manzo]

Yep.

[David Sampson]

You just walked into work one day and all right, I got 20 things I got to do.

[Lou Manzo]

So there's some things that I just can't talk about, but I can talk about kind of what's going on now. I've been out of DOJ for a couple years and can, can talk generally about sentencing and cooperation and do some tea leaf reading for you. But I, I did start this case.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, it's kind of like when on ESPN you see Rex Ryan commenting on the Jets.

[David Sampson]

But I think it's fair to ask and for you, say when you start a case like this, are you thinking about sort of where it's going to end? Will you be there for the whole thing?

[Lou Manzo]

It was a very interesting case. One of my more interesting ones that I did at doj. Anytime you've got allegations of a financial fraud, it's going to be interesting. Obviously there's some details of it that, that you guys have caught onto that are more interesting than, than your average.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. And I, I, I just realized that I compared Lou to a guy with a foot fetish.

[Lou Manzo]

I was wearing loafers today and I, I almost took them off.

[Pablo Torre]

Get comfy. Get comfy. I do want to present the bio though, because Lou is a couple years out of the doj. And Lou started off, David, as a violent crime and sex Prosecutor at the U.S. attorney's office, spent about a decade at the Department of Justice becoming a trial attorney in the fraud section at Main Justice. And Lou, you worked on everything from opioid overprescription cases to healthcare fraud to large scale market manipulation cases. And you left the DOJ to become a partner at Beverage and Diamond, focusing on white collar investigations and criminal defense.

[David Sampson]

Needed to earn more money. It's a very common sort of, it's a common path and it's not like

[Pablo Torre]

there's any chaos happening currently. Yeah, everyone needs a department in question.

[Lou Manzo]

And I should say my opinions today are my own. My GC would be happy if I didn't say that.

[Pablo Torre]

What I can say on my end is that this started in about mid-2023 when two Aspiration employees filed a confidential 11 page whistleblower complaint with the federal government under penalty of perjury. And, and Lou was not my source on how I obtained and published excerpts of this in the last episode we did, Part nine. But it is important for me to observe here at the top that this whistleblower complaint, which was filed years before I got a hold of it, is something that Lou would have seen. And because of its filing, it helped launch the federal investigation that brings us here today. And so, David, for people who did not watch Part nine, would you please open your folder and just remember for us the key paragraph relevant to our interest, to the NBA's interests. This comes under a subsection titled Examples of Aspirations Fraud, where the two whistleblowers allege, under penalty of perjury, that the clippers used a $32 million account to pay for carbon credits, past agreements with the Clippers, and, quote, even to pay

[David Sampson]

Clippers forward Kawhi Leonard an incentivized bonus to circumvent the NBA salary cap, disguised as an organic marketing sponsorship agreement.

[Pablo Torre]

So, Lou, I want to ask about this generally, whistleblower complaints and the importance of them as a matter of how the DOJ functions. For people who don't understand what a document like this even is, how significant it would be, how can you help explain and decode what they are?

[Lou Manzo]

Yeah. DOJ initiates cases probably with three main ways. Disaster gets investigated, plane crash, explosion, injury, something like that. Those are some examples. Statistical analysis. So a lot of healthcare cases are generated by looking at Medicare and Medicaid data and then looking for outliers and seeing if those outliers make sense. So when I was doing opioid cases, there are good reasons why some doctors might prescribe lots of opioids. They're working with cancer patients end of life. There's also many occasions where there's no good reason for a doctor to be dispensing large amounts of opioids. And so that's how another lead source happens. And then the third, probably most significant way is through whistleblowers, either who walk in to DOJ and say they've got information or who file a ketam. And then that information gets its way over to the DOJ criminal side.

[Pablo Torre]

And this one was filed first to the securities and Exchange Commission, then making its way to the doj, to the CFTC as well. And according to my reporting, and it's also worth noting perhaps that according to various talking heads, we're certainly not me. Kawhi Leonard has also been described as both an injury case and a disaster at times.

[David Sampson]

You don't have to comment.

[Pablo Torre]

Why are you the. The attorney's attorney now?

[David Sampson]

I'm trying to just help him settle in. You're a lot, Pablo. And for people who just walk into it. Right. It's. You have to just get your sea legs.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Lou Manzo]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So in general, again, a question, because you are the person who, of course, saw all of this before I did, who studied all of this vetted all of this before I did. Could a salary capture convention scheme by a sports owner with a fraudulent team sponsor he was also a major investor in, could that be relevant to the DOJ's investigation of the person suspected of running that fraud?

[Lou Manzo]

So, speaking in generalities, DOJ justice manual says prosecutors should go after the most serious and readily provable offense. That's just black letter law. That's what every prosecutor is told to do. And that most serious readily provable offense is typically the easiest to prove fraud.

[David Sampson]

But what's interesting to me is the information that you had in front of you at the time, you're weighing it and you're looking for the easiest to prove. And I say easy in quotes, but also the most serious. So when you're facing fraud or someone, let's just say what it is. You're taking money and you're using it in ways that may not be legal and it may be disappearing. You could think Ponzi scheme, you could think fraud, whatever you want. And then NBA salary cap. If you are DOJ looking at those two, and I don't want to speak for you, so please, you're looking at those two to go by the letter of what your job is. Salary cap would be put over here because you've got a big fat fraud right in front of you that is provable, serious and would just take its place, I would think, before salary cap circumvention.

[Lou Manzo]

And again, if this wasn't podcast court, I could confirm or deny that that statement.

[Pablo Torre]

But I think what's interesting is that in the complaint, of course it is both. The roadmap laid out has all of this mentioned under penalty of perjury in writing years before I ever heard about any of this. But the good news today is that we have a new letter, a different letter that I would love to decode with Lou in his unique capacity to have expertise on this subject. And the writer of this letter, via his legal representatives, happens to be. I'm gonna get this name correct here. Yeah. Happens to be one Stephen Ballmer. So I think there might be some value in the analysis.

[David Sampson]

Owner of the Clippers.

[Lou Manzo]

Yeah, I got it. Yep. Aware.

[David Sampson]

I don't know if you could say

[Lou Manzo]

that, you know that I am a Celtics fan. I should disclose that.

[Pablo Torre]

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[Lou Manzo]

So it's just a way to inform the court of what the victim thinks should be a just outcome. And some victims, quite frankly, don't think somebody should go to jail. They think, you know, this case should move on, or they've apologized, or they don't believe in incarceration. There's many reasons why a victim doesn't want somebody to go to jail. And other people, other victims want somebody new to go away for the rest of their life. And so the victim impact statements are just generally a way for the court to become aware of what the people who are affected feel should happen. Has no binding control in the court. But it's something that a court does take into account.

[David Sampson]

It differs how much they take it into account, obviously. And it really is part of a file. And it really, to us, it's always been looked at as a cya in that you both DOJ and the judge, the sentencing judge, they get to say, yeah, we reviewed every victim impact statement. We reviewed it, we took everything into account, and then we did what we wanted to do according to the guidelines. And in this case, it's just funny that a victim in quotes the Steve Ballmer as victim. That's part of his narrative, and we've talked about it on these episodes. He needs that to be part of his narrative. To me, he needed to file this statement to continue the narrative of him being a victim of Joe Sandberg.

[Pablo Torre]

My only regret as we get into what he filed is that this is not a victim impact podcast that he recorded, which I think the DOJ should encourage as a matter of the evolution of the medium. But this one was written to the Honorable Stephen v. Wilson in U.S. district Court in the Central District of California. And I first heard of this actually on April 22, when ESPN obtained a copy of it, apparently before it was published for public consumption. And the letter said, quote, it had been filed in court, according to a source with knowledge of the situation. So ESPN got a copy of it early. The author, of course, one Stephen Ballmer, who through his high powered attorneys, David, wrote this. According to the version, Ballmer then tweeted out for all of us to read on April 23rd.

[David Sampson]

That's some kind of impact statement when you tweet it out, isn't it? That's exactly what DOJ wanted. Mr. Ballmer's connection to Sandberg is what caused a former talking head and television personality, Pablo Torre to launch a relentless vitriolic public campaign against Mr. Ballmer, alleging, principally based on anonymized gossip as well as on a misapprehension or intentional disregard of the facts, that Mr. Ballmer conspired with Sandberg and Aspiration to engage in the circumvention of the NBA salary cap by virtue of an endorsement deal between Aspiration and one of the team's star players, Kawhi Leonard. I'm just laughing because that. That pretty mean. Has never appeared in a victim impact statement.

[Pablo Torre]

What the hell?

[Lou Manzo]

It's unusual to take a shot at a podcast or in a victim impact statement or talking head, and I think you're more than that.

[Pablo Torre]

Thank you, Lou. I am, if nothing else, a current talking head still on television. Fact checking is important here.

[David Sampson]

So what I did when I saw this is I pictured the judge reading it and reading this. I can't believe this got approved by his lawyer. Because I don't view any judge as reading this and saying, oh, you're a victim.

[Lou Manzo]

Any attorney has to take in a larger system of litigation that's going on. So there's a civil case, there's probably other cases that I'm sure o' Melveny is considering, and then there's the criminal case that's going to sentencing. So this might not have been just for the judge.

[Pablo Torre]

I dare say it might have been for the court of public opinion or

[David Sampson]

the court of Adam Silver.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, this takes me to the other fact checking matter, which is that the reason I started looking into the story was not because of Joe Sandberg. It was because mechanically, Kawhi Leonard got paid millions of dollars as part of a no show endorsement deal with a Clippers team sponsor that was never announced by anyone while simultaneously being paid more than four times as much as all of the other Hollywood A listers deals combined. Like, that's the reason I got into this. It's funny now to be bank shotted through Joe Sandberg. But, you know, I want to point this out. You're trained to read what is very intentionally said and what is not said in the paragraph that David read as a matter of just factual concern. Did anything deny my reporting that cap circumvention by the Clippers took place?

[David Sampson]

Certainly not in my reading, though I do like that it was principally based on anonymized gossip. That is a very carefully crafted sentence by an attorney. Obviously, when you say the word principally, that leaves room. That is not completely. That is not fully right.

[Pablo Torre]

3,000 pages of internal documents could be in the minority 100%.

[David Sampson]

So principally. And then the gossip part could be referring to the jocularity, the nature of some of the episodes. It could be referring. It's funny when he says that sources

[Pablo Torre]

are two anonymous whistleblowers under penalty of perjury, gossiping.

[David Sampson]

It's just a funny paragraph. It's a. It's a very interesting paragraph to me.

[Pablo Torre]

It's unusual, the first statement we got in the reporting. By the way, David, you remember this. We were so young, so much taller back then. It was September 2, 2025. And Lou, you have a quote to read. Actually, because this is from the Clippers public relations department, I've always dreamed of

[Lou Manzo]

opening a folder on your show. Okay. Neither Mr. Ballmer nor the Clippers circumvented the salary cap or engaged in any misconduct related to aspiration. Any contrary assertion is provably false.

[Pablo Torre]

Provably false. When we got that, Dave, you'll recall, I was like, holy, this is awesome. They're about to prove that we're false. And that statement has not been repeated a single time in the seven months since, including in that letter that we're citing here, the victim impact letter.

[David Sampson]

So that was just from a timing standpoint. The show came out September 3rd. He was asked for a comment, and then the Clippers released this the day before the show. And what we then waited for was what was provably false. And what happened is that they sent

[Pablo Torre]

a new statement to the rest of the media that didn't have provably false

[David Sampson]

in it, like immediately.

[Pablo Torre]

So, look, the sentiment, right, takes us back to the present tense, because Ballmer's victim letter. David goes on.

[David Sampson]

In the immediate wake of the allegations, Mr. Ballmer commissioned a comprehensive internal review of the Clippers organization and directed his employees at the Clippers and his home office, the Ballmer Group, to participate in and cooperate with the league's inquiries. As part of that review, we, as Mr. Ballmer's attorneys, have contacted Sandberg's attorneys to obtain any relevant Information and insights Sandberg may have. But despite repeated requests, Sandberg has refused to share any meaningful information with us or Mr. Ballmer.

[Pablo Torre]

I guess first off, Lou, the weight of the federal government might place on a self commissioned internal review. What does that signify? What does that mean to the doj?

[Lou Manzo]

Any internal investigation, generally minimal importance to doj. They have their own investigators, they have their own subpoena power, search warrant power, the power to compel arrest to show up at a grand jury. So an internal investigation, if it was placed on DOJ's desk, doesn't really mean

[David Sampson]

anything when the owner of the team.

[Lou Manzo]

Yeah.

[David Sampson]

Is accused or there is a problem. It's very common for what an owner would do is say, all right, we're going to clean it up. Let's find out exactly what happened. We're going to make sure it never happens again.

[Pablo Torre]

And you've done this?

[David Sampson]

Yes, because it's a great PR thing to say that we're doing it. And we don't expect someone like Pablo to come around and basically impugn anything that we find because we know what we're going to find before we start. Right.

[Pablo Torre]

The federal government's powers are vast in comparison to a self commissioning of all my companies needing to tell me their boss what I have done wrong.

[David Sampson]

They're even vast to the independent council and the independent investigators. Because what Wachtel will do, and they did in the rosier case is they hid behind the fact. Well, you listen, we did the best we could. But hey, they've got subpoena powers. They've got the ability to do way more than we can.

[Pablo Torre]

This is Terry Rozier, who was the player the Miami Heat acquired while it turns out surprise, he was under federal investigation leading to Cash Patel, FBI director at Oppressor, behind a deus announcing as much, making the NBA and Wachtel extraordinarily concerned, embarrassed too. Anyway, the real meat of the quote here, in my view, it does concern Joe Sandberg refusing to quote, share any meaningful information with Ballmer's legal team. And this is dismaying, David, because the letter continues to point out that Joe Sandberg has decided to cooperate with somebody else.

[David Sampson]

Sandberg continues to exploit his fraud of Mr. Ballmer for his own benefit, providing information to the NBA in return for a sentencing letter that the league submitted on his behalf. The reliability of Sandberg's information is suspect given that he has pleaded guilty to federal fraud charges and the government has made its own determination that he is not credible. Clearly, Sandberg continues to prioritize his own Interests over those of his victims in his desperate pursuit of a lighter sentence.

[Pablo Torre]

And so I think it's safe to say there's a bit of a game within a game being played here, Lou. But as the guy who started the DOJ investigation into Joe Sandberg Aspirations co founder, when you first read that, what was your reaction?

[Lou Manzo]

My first reaction was if a judge read that letter, he would say, I have no idea what you're talking about right now. It's not. A judge would, would be calling his clerks and who maybe are a bit younger and saying what's going on here? I am very confused. What does this have to do with carbon credit offsets and accounting fraud or wire fraud?

[Pablo Torre]

Right, right.

[Lou Manzo]

It's just not meant for the judge.

[Pablo Torre]

Had you seen any example analogous to

[Lou Manzo]

this in the fraud context, you get fewer victim impact statements because a lot of times large scale fraud is perpetrated against venture capital. Venture capital does not have a great interest in seeing federal prosecutions. They want their losses just to be written off and to move on. So they don't really have an interest in signaling that they made a mistake. So this is an unprecedented letter, in my opinion, to kind of be going down this, this road to a federal judge who, you know, may have no information about this issue.

[David Sampson]

To me, it makes it even more clear though that this letter was actually not intended for the federal judge.

[Lou Manzo]

No, I, I think the only thing you can say, and again, I have no information, no inside information. This is just me years removed from this case. You know, maybe they were concerned that there was a more fulsome letter coming from the NBA or an interested party that said, you know, that Joe Sandberg has provided very demonstrative information against Steve Ballmer or the Clippers.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, let's now read the letter that Steve Ballmer's letter is referring to when he says that Joe Sandberg has provided information to the NBA in return for a sentencing letter that the league submitted on his behalf. Because you're right, if the judge is not scrolling NBA Reddit, he might not appreciate that. Oh, wait a minute. The opposite of a victim impact statement has been filed by Wachtel Lipton, by David, our old friend David Anders, the lead investigator on all of these NBA scandals we've been referencing.

[David Sampson]

I don't throw the word friend around, by the way.

[Pablo Torre]

Interlocutor. In an off the record meeting that we were able to say happened via mutual agreement with David Anders that we

[David Sampson]

made very much on the record.

[Pablo Torre]

I think we threaded the needle of ethics there. This statement, Lou. Right So they're the victim impact statements. And then there's the other version, which is what I'm holding in my hand. And this category just to describe generally what purpose are they supposed to serve.

[Lou Manzo]

Just a letter of support. There's no statutory term for it. But at any sentencing, the family, friends, anyone who wants to support the defendant can submit materials. They can speak up at sentencing. And that's what happens in some cases. Not all.

[Pablo Torre]

The letter I'm holding in my hand. I. I would like to read this one because the letterhead from Wakta, Lipton, Rosen and cats is like 60% of the page. A real flex to have the whole masthead at the very top. But there it says WLRK April 17, 2026, to the Honorable Stephen V. Wilson, et cetera, et cetera. Ray NBA investigation slash LA Clippers is the title, is the subject. Dear Judge Wilson, my name is David Anders and I'm a partner at this law firm. I write with respect to the upcoming sentencing of Joseph Sandberg. In September 2025, the National Basketball Association NBA hired my law firm to conduct an investigation which I have been leading into potential NBA rules violations, including the LA Clippers basketball team. In connection with our investigation, we sought Mr. Sandberg's cooperation, which he voluntarily provided. Mr. Sandberg's defense counsel has requested that we advise the court of the nature of Mr. Sandberg's cooperation. Mr. Sandberg sat with us for two in person interviews, produced documents, and through his counsel provided additional information that was relevant to our investigation. In all our dealings with Mr. Sandberg, both directly and through his counsel, he provided information that was consistent with our review of contemporaneous documents and other evidence. Mr. Sandberg's cooperation substantially assisted our investigation, including our ability to develop a more complete understanding of key events. At no time during our dealings with Mr. Sandberg and his counsel did they seek nor did we make any promises in exchange for his cooperation. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Respectfully submitted, David B. Anders.

[David Sampson]

My favorite word in that, since we're just talking about favorite words, is when he makes sure that the judge understands he voluntarily, as though Wachtel has the ability to get anyone to talk other than voluntarily. It is the most unnecessary word in a letter of fully unnecessary words. But it's meant to be a triggering word to try to make the judge or whoever's reading it understand, hey, he voluntarily did this.

[Lou Manzo]

My favorite word is substantial assistance, because that, that is, you know, that's a term of art that the judge would pick up on because what any defendant who's cooperating wants is a 5K. And that is a part of the sentencing guidelines where if you provide substantial assistance in an investigation, the government and the defense can recommend a departure from the guidelines. And so that is a hot button word. I've never seen a substantial assistance letter from an NBA or any third party. That's. That doesn't really carry any weight to the court. I would, I would imagine. But that is a term of art, so it's interesting.

[Pablo Torre]

And a 5k for those not familiar

[Lou Manzo]

would be 5k is just the sentencing guidelines chapter. Sentencing guidelines are a giant book. You add up the enhancements and you take away points for, you know, kind of positive things and you get a score.

[David Sampson]

It's the abacus of incarceration.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, the whole abacus of incarceration. Figuring out are we moving one bead this way or that way, because he's participated in effectively a version of podcast Court is very interesting to me. And this letter, David, given Ballmer's description in his letter, the victim's letter, I suppose let's ask an operative question that is directly something that we talk about all the time, which is, do you think Joe Sandberg, the co founder of Aspiration, snitched on Steve Ballmer to the NBA?

[David Sampson]

They're trying to figure out how can we write a report and advise the NBA in a way that the NBA has covered, we have cover, and that we'll be hired again. And what I love about what they're saying here is when you are dealing with Joe Sandberg, Watel is not interested in what you're interested about him. It actually is not relevant to them.

[Pablo Torre]

You as the DOJ prosecutor.

[David Sampson]

Sorry, you as doj, much like the doj, may or may not have been interested in the salary cap circumvention. All Wachtel's interested is the circumvention part.

[Lou Manzo]

Right?

[David Sampson]

Everyone is playing for their own team, and it's up to the judge in general to figure out everybody's slant. And these letters are incredibly slanted.

[Pablo Torre]

It's notable. Like Wachtel, David Anders is saying information consistent with our review of contemporaneous documents and evidence, perhaps noting that whatever Sandberg said to them, they have information elsewhere that they are corroborating this information with.

[Lou Manzo]

So when I was a prosecutor and somebody's cooperating in an investigation, they. That cooperation is pretty much worthless unless there's contemporaneous support. Because you can tell, a jury can tell that if someone's just making up a story because they're going to get a reduction in sentencing. They're very highly motivated to say whatever the government wants you to say. And so anytime somebody's going to cooperate, you really need to build a world of evidence to surround that to explain why it's trustworthy.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, listen, that's not so dissimilar from what I try to do as a journalist, and it's as a podcast as well. As a former.

[David Sampson]

I called him a journalist as a former.

[Lou Manzo]

As a former, you told me I couldn't give him a free passage.

[Pablo Torre]

I should also clarify that Joe Sandberg, if you're wondering, has never been one of my sources. And I've never relied on information directly from Joe Sandberg for any of the reporting that I've done. Not that we haven't reached out to him, because we reached out to Joe Sandberg's lawyer, Mark Bukase, and he declined to comment. The next thing, though, of interest that Ballmer's attorneys observe elsewhere in their statement, David, is also worth reading.

[David Sampson]

Mr. Ballmer now understands that without his knowledge and contrary to the truth, Sandberg was touting a close relationship with Mr. Ballmer to other investors and using Mr. Ballmer's investments to attract additional similar investors. This is particularly insidious given that other than greeting Sandberg at a Clippers game, they had barely spoken. Indeed, Mr. Ballmer recalls speaking to Sandberg only once, and that was only briefly while they both attended a public event.

[Pablo Torre]

And so I just want to handle this a bit quickly here because I

[David Sampson]

can't believe they wrote that.

[Pablo Torre]

Look, I love how deep in the weeds on the NBA story the victim impact letter is, because it reminds me that as much as Ballmer says, he barely spoke to Sandberg before striking a founding partnership and jersey patch deal with the Clippers in September of 2021 that also that same month, September 2021, according to emails we've obtained, he very quickly closed the deal to invest $50 million of his personal money and then also gave another $10 million of his personal money in March of 23, even though Ballmer was informed via written disclosures in his purchase agreement that aspiration was in default and being probed by FINRA and the SEC and had its independent auditor recently resigned. None of which the letter unfortunately mentions. The thing that keeps coming up, though, among aspiration employees who tell me they find it ridiculous that Ballmer would be horrified that, quote, Sandberg used Mr. Ballmer's investments to attract additional similar investors, end quote, is that what Ballmer got was a $300 million founding sponsorship paid by Aspiration to the Clippers as well, as you may have heard, as a secret, never announced deal with Kawhi Leonard, who was demanding such a deal. But as for when Ballmer first met the Clippers and Joe Sandberg, David Palmer's letter continues to spell out his version of events.

[David Sampson]

In 2021, Sandberg personally joined and aggressively pursued on behalf of Aspiration, the bidding process to acquire the naming rights to the new arena that would be the home for Mr. Ballmer's NBA basketball team, the LA Clippers. Although Sandberg was the point person for Aspiration in the bidding process, Mr. Ballmer was not introduced to him until late 2021. At the conclusion of that bidding process, while Sandberg was pitching Aspiration as a worthy sponsor for the Clippers, Clippers employees And through them, Mr. Ballmer became familiar with what appeared to be Sandberg's shared interest in sustainability.

[Pablo Torre]

So Ballmer didn't know Sandberg at all. According to this story, this letter until late 2021, Clipper's employees only became familiar with Sandberg and sustainability in 2021, that same year. But what they don't mention is that the Ballmer Group, the aforementioned charity in January of 2018. This would be three years before Ballmer says he was introduced to Sandberg in 2021, and the Ballmer Group donated to the charity. Joe Sandbrook had personally founded and served as a chairman of Golden State Opportunity, and his face was all over the website. But that's not the only thing that happened back in 2018, the year before Kawhi Leonard had signed with the Clippers in 2019 as a free agent, by the way, because while the Ballmer letter says that 2021 is when, quote, Clippers employees, and through them, Mr. Ballmer became familiar with what appeared to be Sandberg's shared interest in sustainability, end quote. Avid PTFO listeners, Celtics fans like Lou Manzo may recall this tweet from Aspiration's old Twitter account, which someone maybe forgot to Delete. This is August 23rd, 2018. And David, who do you see in this photo?

[David Sampson]

That's Doc Rivers. I need my glasses, but that looks a lot like Doc Rivers. I recognize that hunch anywhere.

[Pablo Torre]

It is Doc Rivers, the then head coach of the Clippers, who was at the time, by the way, reporting directly to owner Steve Ballmer and talking to a bunch of employees with the big word you can see on the blue wall. That says what?

[David Sampson]

Aspiration.

[Pablo Torre]

Aspiration's offices were less than 10 minutes away from the Clippers facility at the Time this was Marina Del Rey. And multiple Aspiration employees who were in those offices tell me that Doc Rivers was not the only Clippers employee who visited back then. In fact, according to Aspiration financials we obtained, both Doc Rivers and his then wife became Aspiration investors In February of 2018, the month after Ballmer donated to Sandberg's charity Golden State Opportunity, which the Ballmer Group called a well respected organization just last September.

[David Sampson]

I've never had a manager in my career who would do. We'd send him on a speaking engagement and not know what it is and then he'd be personally involved, invest in it, and we'd be like, oh, we had no idea.

[Lou Manzo]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, and if nothing else, it just simply complicates the timeline, which is meant to be very simple.

[David Sampson]

And Lou, this is sent to the judge, correct? So that, that to me is an even funnier point.

[Lou Manzo]

Yes. And again, I think the judge would say, what is going on here? I have no idea.

[Pablo Torre]

Like and subscribe Judge Wilson. That's what I would say to him. But I am also glad to have talked to multiple other sources who are directly familiar with the federal investigation of Aspiration. This is beyond Lou Manzo, incidentally, over the last several months. And you should know that all of them have vouched for the credibility of the two whistleblowers that led both the SEC and the DOJ to investigate Aspiration. In part because, yeah, they provided Lou MANZO with this 11 page roadmap under penalty of perjury that resulted in the successful conviction of Joe Sandberg. All of which, which strengthens our reporting here that Steve Ballmer, one of the 15 richest people in the world, was drained for more and more money in increasingly obvious ways by the friendly founder that Ballmer's Clippers had also trusted to deceive the NBA. But I also think it is quite important for people who are less familiar with this 10 part saga to just get a sense of Ballmer and Sandberg together on stage at Clippers media Day in 2021.

[Lou Manzo]

So it was great that Joe and the group at Aspiration was interested in working with us and we'll talk more about what we're doing. But I'm pretty keen on all the projects and we're keen to have these guys as a marketing partner. So with that, let me turn things over to Joe Sandberg. Thanks so much, Steve. There are a few people in the business world and in the sports world that I admire as much as Steve Ballmer. This is a true visionary and an original thinker and those are rare.

[Pablo Torre]

But let's go back to the criminal proceedings here because in footnote one love a footnote on this show, David. We return to maybe something resembling Judge Stephen Wilson's interests.

[David Sampson]

While the verifiable carbon offsets for the Clippers and the Forum, paid for under agreements with aspiration, were received, Mr. Ballmer lost the entirety of his $60 million investment and the Clippers lost virtually all of the $300 million sponsorship payments and more than 20 million held in escrow for additional carbon offset purchases which were never made and the money not returned. More importantly, however, the entirety of Mr. Ballmer's dealings with Aspiration have caused immeasurable damage to his reputation.

[Pablo Torre]

And again, he blames Joe for that,

[David Sampson]

continuing to say the collateral damage of Sandberg's fraud extended to the Clippers organization. As aspiration began to unravel, the Clippers were forced to terminate the Jersey Patched sponsorship agreement and scrambled to find a new sponsor, a process that took years and significantly disrupted business operations. This harm is directly attributable to Sandberg's criminally fraudulent conduct.

[Pablo Torre]

So I should say that this harm, this unraveling, was actually brought to his attention directly by Louis by federal investigators mid 2023, not long after he invested in March 23 that $10 million it got covered by Bloomberg in national headlines in January and July 2024 was made painfully clear by the way, by the arrest of Joe Sandberg's co conspirator, also a focus of the DOJ investigation, Ibrahim Al Husseini. He was arrested and convicted on securities fraud charges, pled guilty, but the arrest happened in October 2024. And I bring this up to say that the immeasurable damage, the totality of destabilization, led Steve Ballmer in November of 24 to do something notable, which was donate another $1.875 million to the charity founded and chaired by the scammer who had done all of this to his reputation, Joe Sandberg. And I know, Lou, you can't speak to this directly. I do appreciate that you're enjoying Podcast Court at the moment. And so I will just need to quote source number one from the finance department at Aspiration, who previously on this specific point had told us this.

[Lou Manzo]

Am I taking crazy pills? It's just inconceivable to me to be both hoodwinked and bamboozled, but yet continuously giving money to Joe Sandberg, I don't know how to make that make sense in my mind.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, I want to anticipate the possibility that Steve Ballmer really believed in the mission of the Golden State Opportunity Foundation, Joe Sandberg's baby, the thing that he was the head of. And so maybe there is an art versus the artist sort of distinction he's drawing.

[Lou Manzo]

No, it does not make any iota of sense to invest in 2021, contribute nearly 100 million in carbon offset pre purchases, reinvest in 2022 or 2023 round claim all of that to be lost in 2023, and then come back for more in 2024. Be a charitable donation. Maybe Steve Ballmer is a secret masochist.

[Pablo Torre]

That is honestly one of the most persuasive theories that anyone has offered at this point in the reporting. Yeah, Steve Ballmer's kink is being robbed.

[Lou Manzo]

Rob me blind, Daddy Saloo.

[Pablo Torre]

Does being a victim. Right. And I want to make clear Steve Ballmer, according to our reporting, is a victim of Joe Sandberg. Does being a victim, according to the doj, say anything about whether he was hypothetically also involved in a scheme to circumvent the salary cap?

[Lou Manzo]

Generally, victims can be very complicated. You can have a victim who also might have participated in an offense. There are many cases in financial crime and violent crime where victims can both be a perpetrator and a traditional sense of victim. Somebody who's been scammed or hurt by an offense.

[Pablo Torre]

In other words, can two things be true at the same time?

[Lou Manzo]

Two things are almost always true at the same time.

[Pablo Torre]

Meanwhile, David, look, we've done exhaustive exegesis to summon the Catholic teachings that Lou and I have had of this letter. What was your favorite part?

[David Sampson]

I can picture the meeting that Ballmer had with his attorneys where he's saying, here's what we have to do. And the lawyers just. They had no choice in that because it's not. You don't get disbarred for this letter at all.

[Lou Manzo]

No, it's appropriate. Well, it's a decision within reason.

[David Sampson]

It's a decision within reason. It will not be dispositive in any way in the sentencing, in my opinion. And I believe that Ballmer saw this letter as it was written, and he loved it because it furthered his narrative of what he's trying to get Adam Silver to believe. And Wachtel. And that's my favorite part, is that Stephen Wilson. I'm picturing him. My favorite part is picturing him reading this letter.

[Lou Manzo]

It's a strategic choice the attorney has to make where generally you want less focus on your client when federal investigators are around. That's what I preach every day, let's get them out of our hair, move on, etc. So by writing this letter to the judge, it does raise the question that the judge will start asking questions and say, what does the NBA have to do with this? And then it's going to prolong the process, which is exactly what I would think Stephen Ballmer would not want. On the other hand, it's, you know, a self serving letter so it can help you in the court of public opinion. And I think that's kind of the trade off that, that they must have made.

[Pablo Torre]

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[Pablo Torre]

Acast.com. This is all a buildup towards the sentencing hearing, which was scheduled for Monday of last week, April 27th. Everyone had this date on their calendar circled according to notes that our reporter Anita Bennett took for us out in la. At that courthouse, it came into sharp focus. You had Joe Sandberg seated up near the front, dressed in khakis, a dark blue sweater over a light blue shirt, sneakers. He was seated with his four defense lawyers, one of whom is former Trump attorney Mark Mukasey, a noted lawyer in his own right. And the judge, Stephen V. Wilson, was in fact asking a ton of questions. And David, you have some transcribed selections that Anita, our court reporter, took down for us.

[David Sampson]

There are some questions I have that are not answered in the pre sentencing report. There is no explanation as to how the money was used to plant trees or resurface to investors. You're asking me for a very large sentence. But for the court to do that, it has to understand the fraud, the

[Pablo Torre]

line of questioning, the pressure testing this judge is doing. Was that a surprise, Lou, in your view, as somebody just observing from afar what was happening to the case that you had started and now had nothing to do with anymore?

[Lou Manzo]

Totally depends on the judge. There are some judges who use the sentencing guidelines as a bible and they say, okay, we'll take the bottom to the top, I'll find a spot in the middle and that's where we'll settle. So those judges are more circumscribed and probably ask less questions because there's a smaller decision tree. The sentencing guidelines, though, are completely Voluntary. And that's that way for what, 20 years now. So a judge can say, thank you, sentencing guidelines for your advice. I'm going to depart upward or depart downward. And that is subject to fairly minimal review on appeal. In Southern District of New York, where we are now, the sentencing guidelines are 90% of the time in white collar downward departures. Other jurisdictions that have less white collar are usually more within the guidelines. So Los Angeles and this judge, I don't know in particular what his background is and whether he departs or stays within. He's gonna wanna know the basics of this before he makes a decision.

[David Sampson]

Scattering reports on judges like in baseball. So here's where they go in and they know what they're dealing with before they go before the judge.

[Pablo Torre]

So here's the scouting report, the back of the baseball card for Steven Victor Wilson. He was appointed by Ronald Reagan, 1985. He is 85 years young. And he, according to our court reporter, was kind of flustering the DOJ in terms of all of the questions he wanted to ask as somebody who did not seem to be familiar with the case on even the level that the DOJ was pursuing it. And the weird thing is that we had read, of course, extensively from the victim impact letter filed by Stephen Ballmer, the one that was first leaked to ESPN and then tweeted out by Ballmer himself two days later. ESPN had reported, as we mentioned, that the Ballmer letter, quote, had been filed in court, according to a source with knowledge of the situation. But for whatever it's worth, we're looking through the public filings and the letter does not appear there among the other victim impact statements, even though Ballmer had publicly tweeted it out. So we went to the U.S. attorney's office for the Central District of California in Los Angeles, and a spokesperson told us, quote, I suggest you contact Mr. Ballmer or his lawyer. He likely filed it under seal, which means you won't be able to read it without a court order. But I guess, presumably, Lou, just as a matter of process, the judge would have read this letter before the hearing. In the assessment of the documents in

[Lou Manzo]

the case, if the judge was expecting to go to sentencing, he would have read all the materials and had. Would have seen a victim impact statement from Mr. Bomber that said there's probably many, many victim impact statements and he might not remember everyone.

[Pablo Torre]

So one piece of information that did stick out to our reporter, as I immediately called Anita and was like, did Bomber come up? Was he mentioned in, in the proceedings? David, I give you the One mention of Stephen Ballmer, and this is from the lead prosecutor.

[David Sampson]

Steve Ballmer invested $60 million and came forward. He was the biggest investor and lost his investment.

[Pablo Torre]

This was as he was reciting the range of victims, from the little guy to the biggest owner in sports. To which the judge then says, who's Steve Ballmer?

[Lou Manzo]

He does not like and subscribe.

[David Sampson]

Oh, it's even better. They're in LA where Balmer is the owner of the Clippers team in la.

[Pablo Torre]

I can't tell who's more offended, me or Clippers fans.

[Lou Manzo]

He's probably a Lakers guy.

[David Sampson]

I needed to hear the tone of it because I can't. I find it hard to believe, but that's me living in my world of owners and sports.

[Pablo Torre]

I just laughed so hard when we got this note back. Like the amount of time I've spent thinking about Steve Ballmer and then the judge who is presiding over the lever that decides so much of what people stressed out over this case are hoping and fearing. It's like, who's the who?

[Lou Manzo]

We need a court reporter for that moment or a sketch artist. Better.

[Pablo Torre]

What we need is more. More podcasts. I want in court recordings. Look, we have the other four victim impact statements that were in the public filings. And look, I want to acknowledge, it's sad. You have a woman born in poverty in Indiana who was working as an ultrasound technologist, who put in a hundred thousand dollars and has not been able to pay off her home. You got a federal law enforcement officer who invested their entire Roth IRA, almost $400,000. You got a couple that invested $300,000, roughly their entire retirement fund. A couple in their 70s who also invested their IRAs. And you know, notably one of those victims, not co owner of the Clippers, Dennis Wong, the close friend of Steve Ballmer from Harvard, who bought $1.99 million worth of Aspiration stock nine days before Kawhi got paid. 1.75 million to do nothing by aspiration. But such is the range of people who were affected.

[David Sampson]

People don't talk enough about it. But in any Ponzi scheme, there were so many people who lost their life savings in that scheme and they don't get attention because no one wants to podcast about it or care about it. The saddest part of this is not bomber $60 million. It's not salary cap circumvention. To me, the saddest part are these people who thought that they had a chance to make a wise investment. And it happens every day.

[Lou Manzo]

The other part of that too is carbon credits are real. People do buy them. They buy them for good reason. And I think this case has raised some doubts about that and kind of made corporations less interested in pursuing that.

[Pablo Torre]

But the upshot of all these questions is that the judge, David, said this to DOJ prosecutors.

[David Sampson]

I'll give you two weeks to file a new sentencing memorandum. I'll give the defense one week to respond.

[Pablo Torre]

And so the sentencing is tentatively postponed until June 1st at 10am and I should point out also the bigger picture here as we zoom out near the end. According to multiple sources with direct knowledge, the federal investigation into aspiration beyond the DOJ is not yet over. The securities and Exchange Commission, the agency that the two whistleblowers filed that complaint to under penalty of perjury, confidentially, they're still looking into aspiration.

[Lou Manzo]

So parallel investigations, totally normal, especially with large scale financial fraud, criminal investigations generally lead. DOJ definitely considers itself the top dog. So it's very normal that civil investigations would continue after a DOJ criminal investigation is wrapped up. And that's probably what's happening here.

[Pablo Torre]

So let's talk about what happens when the DOJ's criminal investigation is wrapped up. Whatever happens there, Lou, whatever Joe, who pleaded guilty, ultimately received from the government, what does that suggest about the question that you had raised earlier, which is possible cooperation with the government. Right. Like whether or not that's about Steve Ballmer. I'm curious what can be concluded about whether that's still possible once his sentence has been delivered?

[Lou Manzo]

Anything is always on the table. That's probably the shortest answer, that once you get sentenced, you're no longer eligible for 5K, but you are eligible for what's called a Rule 35 reduction. So the government can move post sentencing and say that this person substantially assisted in an investigation and needs to have a reduction in sentence, gets kicked back to the sentencing judge, sending the scene judge, then they re sentence to a reduction. So the process can always change. There's definitely opportunities that DOJ could restart something and look at something later. Maxwell had a major DOJ official, Ghislaine

[Pablo Torre]

Maxwell from the Epstein files.

[Lou Manzo]

Right. You would never have expected her to be talked to by high DOJ officials to, you know, get more information post sentencing. That would be incomprehensible when she was convicted a few years ago. And now that those conversations are happening, what would result from that is if she assisted in some investigation, then she would get a reduction under Rule 35 or even a pardon.

[Pablo Torre]

So the calculus, David, is I think, kind of simple in this Regard. If you're the NBA, right, and you're looking at what happened to Terry Roger, and the entire specter of what you don't know is sort of looming. What could the government do to embarrass us? This feels like a book they wish would close when the sentencing, when the journey started by Lou Manzo and finished by other people at the Department of Justice is finally ostensibly complete. And what we're learning here at the end here, what we're finding out is that whatever revenge Joe Sandberg could hypothetically exact using the information that he may or may not have on the biggest investor at aspiration that he was in business with over the course of nine figures of transactions, the question is, what does this administration care about? Is Joe Sandberg holding anything of value to offer the Department of Justice?

[David Sampson]

Wait to see.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, part 11. Why are you just nodding now? You're clammed up.

[David Sampson]

Oh, I thought that was your clothes.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been Pablo Torre finds Out a Meadowlark Media production. And I'll talk to you next.

[Lou Manzo]

What makes a leader worth following? What should you really care about in your job?

[David Sampson]

As technology is changing so quickly, is

[Lou Manzo]

it just gonna be about machines talking to other machines? I mean, should you quit your job and start something on your own?

[David Sampson]

What would that take?

[Lou Manzo]

What does success and risk look like

[David Sampson]

when we're all at the starting gate together? These are the questions we answer each week on Lead Human with Jack Myers and Tim Spengler.

[Lou Manzo]

Join us each week and subscribe at

[David Sampson]

your favorite podcast platform and YouTube.

[Lou Manzo]

We'll tell stories, we'll hear from some

[Pablo Torre]

of the best, and we'll try to

[David Sampson]

figure this out together.

[Pablo Torre]

Big news. Boost Mobile is now sending experts nationwide to deliver and set up customers new phones at home or work. Wait, we're going on tour? Not a tour. We're delivering and setting up customers phones so it's easier to upgrade.

[Lou Manzo]

Let's get in the tour bus and hit the road.

[Pablo Torre]

No, not a tour bus. It's a regular car we use to deliver and set up customers phones at home or work.

[Lou Manzo]

Are you a groupie on this tour?

[Pablo Torre]

We deliver and set up phones. It's not a tour. Oh, you're definitely a groupie. Introducing store to door. Switch and get a new device with expert setup and delivery wherever you're at. Delivery available for select devices [e-mail] okay, caller one wins courtside seats to tonight's game.

[Lou Manzo]

What? I won floor seats.

[David Sampson]

You did?

[Lou Manzo]

I've been calling for 13 months. Wait, Chris.

[David Sampson]

Yes.

[Lou Manzo]

I finally did it.

[Pablo Torre]

What are you gonna wear? Men's Wearhouse. They've got today's looks for any occasion.

[Lou Manzo]

And I need to look like a celebrity.

[Pablo Torre]

Don't want to stick out.

[Lou Manzo]

Exactly. They've got Chill Flex by Kenneth Cole, Joseph Abood, and a tailor at every

[Pablo Torre]

store for the perfect fit.

[Lou Manzo]

Congrats. You can stop calling now. Not a chance.

[Pablo Torre]

Hit any look for every occasion at Men's Wearhouse. Love the way you look.