Tearin' Up My Charts: How MTV's "Total Request Live" Got Rigged (PTFO Vault)

Summary

Pablo Torre Finds Out: "Tearin' Up My Charts: How MTV's 'Total Request Live' Got Rigged" (PTFO Vault)
Release Date: July 1, 2025

In this riveting episode of "Pablo Torre Finds Out", host Pablo Torre delves deep into a nostalgic yet scandalous moment in American pop culture: the alleged rigging of MTV's iconic show, Total Request Live (TRL), by manipulating its voting system to favor New Kids on the Block (NKOTB). Drawing from exclusive interviews, archival insights, and personal anecdotes, Pablo unpacks the intricate web of democracy, fandom, and corporate machinations that defined TRL’s golden era.

1. Introduction and Episode Context

Pablo opens the episode with a heartfelt plea for support, announcing the launch of his paid newsletter on Substack. He emphasizes the significance of this episode, a handpicked gem from the PTFO Vault, setting the stage for an exploration beyond mere nostalgia.

Pablo Torre [00:00]: "Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this story is all about."

2. TRL: The Pinnacle of Late '90s Pop Culture

The conversation shifts to the early days of TRL, highlighting its role as a daily countdown show that crowned the top 10 music videos, predominantly featuring boy bands like NSYNC and the Backstreet Boys. Pablo and correspondent Bradley Campbell discuss how TRL became a cultural juggernaut, influencing youth and shaping musical tastes.

Bradley Campbell [01:32]: "Today's show folks, brace yourselves. If there's a railing or a wall or a post of some kind for you to hold onto, I urge you."

3. The 1999 Chain Letter Troll Campaign

A pivotal moment unfolds as Yorgo Architas, a multifaceted journalist and filmmaker, introduces the central narrative: a viral chain letter campaign aimed at catapulting NKOTB's music video, "Hanging Tough," into TRL’s top ranks. This grassroots movement, though seemingly benign, set the stage for what would become an infamous manipulation of TRL’s democratic voting process.

Yorgo Architas [22:04]: "It's like making people retweet with a knife to their throat. A superstitious knife to their throat."

4. Unraveling the Voting Manipulation

The duo explores how TRL's voting system was exploited by computer scientists who engineered an algorithm to flood the system with votes for NKOTB, despite the band's waning popularity compared to reigning giants like NSYNC and Britney Spears. This section highlights the clash between authentic fan engagement and orchestrated trolling.

Pablo Torre [26:03]: "They had to do it because they had so many votes... they were worried because the foremost laboratory of pop cultural democracy in America was not actually a democracy at all."

5. MTV Executives' Dilemma and Response

As the petition gained momentum, TRL executives faced a crisis. The show was torn between maintaining its democratic veneer and managing the unexpected surge for NKOTB. This led to behind-the-scenes deliberations, where executives decided to manipulate voting results to preserve TRL's credibility and programmatic integrity.

Yorgo Architas [40:10]: "They were being very selective and kind of tipping the scales in any way they needed to. In so far as the democracy was not a democracy."

6. The Aftermath: Legacy of the Rigged Vote

The episode reflects on the immediate and long-term repercussions of this event. While NKOTB's sales skyrocketed temporarily, the incident marked one of the earliest examples of internet-driven trolling affecting mainstream media. This manipulation foreshadowed future instances where digital movements could sway public opinion and media outcomes.

Yorgo Architas [48:40]: "It's the first example of the Internet coming together to troll just for a goof and the institution being like, all right, we'll do it."

7. Personal Reflections and Nostalgia

Throughout the episode, Pablo intertwines personal memories, recounting his sister Tracy’s fervent fandom of NKOTB and the electrifying atmosphere surrounding TRL’s live shows. This blend of personal narrative with investigative journalism enriches the storytelling, making the historical account more relatable and poignant.

Pablo Torre [10:25]: "I distinctly remember one day when my older sister Tracy... skipped school to worship at the altar of peak boy band."

8. Conclusion: The End of an Era and Lessons Learned

As TRL aired its grand finale in November 2008, Pablo and Yorgo reflect on the show's decade-long influence and the lessons learned from the 1999 rigging incident. They ponder the balance between genuine fan engagement and the vulnerabilities of media systems to manipulation, drawing parallels to modern-day social media phenomena.

Pablo Torre [50:07]: "What Total Request Live did was recognize and risk and fear and respect, like, the young person as like a thing that mattered, as a thing that was worth strategizing around and investing in."

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Pablo Torre [35:37]: "They knew what they were doing the whole time."
• Bradley Campbell [44:07]: "We gave the kids the power, so if we somehow gave them the impression that they didn't have any power."
• Yorgo Architas [46:49]: "It's good to know that people still give a right."

Key Insights and Takeaways

• Democracy vs. Manipulation: TRL's voting system was presented as a democratic process, but underlying manipulations revealed the flaws in such structures.
• Early Internet Influence: The 1999 incident was a precursor to the powerful role the internet and digital movements play in shaping media and public opinion today.
• Nostalgia with a Critical Eye: The episode masterfully balances nostalgic reminiscence with critical analysis, offering both emotional resonance and investigative depth.

Conclusion

"Tearin' Up My Charts: How MTV's 'Total Request Live' Got Rigged" is a compelling exploration of a defining moment in late '90s pop culture. Through meticulous research and engaging storytelling, Pablo Torre and Yorgo Architas shed light on the intersection of youth culture, media influence, and the nascent power of the internet. This episode not only uncovers the secrets behind TRL's voting rig but also invites listeners to reflect on the broader implications of media manipulation and the enduring quest for authentic representation in entertainment.

---

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Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, so hello, it is me, Pablo, entering, invading even your ears. Because I have done something I have not done before, which is take the advice of someone who once told me that if people wish to support you financially, if they wish to support your journalism, your very strange future of journalism, meaning your newsroom, your ambitions, your desire to investigate things people don't want you to investigate, you should let them. And so I am on Substack my [e-mail]. we'll put a link in the show notes of this episode. I have turned on paid subscriptions and if you didn't know I have a substack, guess what? It's free. And that's still there for you. And it's worth it. But the paid subscribers who support this show and us will get legitimately cool personalized benefits. We will make it worth your while. We are figuring out here at PTFO our post draftkings future and, you know, more good news on that front. I hope to come. But in the meantime, Pablo show is where you sign up. Click the link in the show notes. Help support us please. Thank you, thank you, thank you on that front. And this, this episode today is a handpicked episode from deep inside the PTFO vault that we sincerely hope you enjoy. Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[Bradley Campbell]

Today's show folks, brace yourselves. If there's a railing or a wall or a post of some kind for you to hold onto, I urge you.

[Pablo Torre]

To do so right after this ad. If you went on a road trip.

[Bradley Campbell]

And you didn't stop for a Big Mac or drop a crispy fry between.

[Pablo Torre]

The car seats or use your McDonald's.

[Bradley Campbell]

Bag as a placemat, then that wasn't a road trip. It was just a really long at participating McDonald's.

[Pablo Torre]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for a three month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks, busy taxes and fees. Mint mobile.com so we haven't done this before. I feel like this is the first bring the studio to the middle of Times Square. Drag me out of the studio to go on a pilgrimage. That's right. And what was the language you used to describe where we're headed? A landmark of democracy. And the reason why I wanted you. Bradley Campbell, noted Politoria finds out. Correspondent. Hello. The reason I wanted you to be doing this episode is because I wanted to do an episode about democracy and sports. Democracy in specific. Because it's an election year, and the power of the vote in sports is a story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I had this meeting, those sorts of meetings that I have about ideas. You were there. Cortez was pitching something about Pat Riley. He was hitting his ooze tanker in the corner. Yeah. Just vaping. But the thing about it is, I immediately went to just like NBA All Star voting. Yes. Because there are some amazing stories about just democratic movements to get guys into the All Star Game. And this is my favorite NBA all star voting story. 2016, another presidential election year. Okay. Zaza Pachulia becomes the subject of an Internet movement to make him an NBA All Star. You may recall Bradley Tower, Tbilisi from the Republic of Georgia. Yeah. Big man. Then with the Dallas Mavericks, it's kind of insane that he would be an NBA All Star. He's not that good. But what happens is all of these, like, vine stars and the actual president of the Republic of Georgia, even Wyclef Jean gets in on it. What? He composes and performs a song about getting out the vote for Zaza Pachulia. Oh, my God. Wow. It's insane.

[Yorgo Architas]

For the All Star Game.

[Pablo Torre]

And the way All Star voting worked in 2016 is the top three vote getters make the team. Okay. And so number one, Kobe Bryant, obviously. Kevin Durant, right behind him. Number three, Kawhi Leonard. Number four. He came so close that the next year. Yeah. They changed the rule. So it wasn't fan voting for All Star starters anymore. It was 50% fan voting, 25% media voting, 25% player vote. And so they changed it because of the Zaza Pachulia democratic uprising. I did not know that. Because, like, when we were talking in the pitch meeting itself, we brought up John Scott.

[Bradley Campbell]

There's a surprise leader in fan voting for the upcoming NHL All Star Game, and his name is. Yeah, John Scott. Seriously, the Coyote's tough guy has no goals and only 38 minutes of ice time this season.

[Pablo Torre]

A hockey player. Yeah. NHL enforcer who actually did get into the All Star Game, actually proved that he can skate and did well. But like, so many people told that story and I remember I was sitting there and we were thinking of Democratic votes, and I was like, oh, oh, I got one. And involves somewhat serious level of democratic corruption. A story that I'm kind of. My past is familiar with. I do want to establish that you are a guy who's done serious journalism about actual democracy. Yeah, we did, like, stories on Navalny, Brexit, rise of Boko Haram, isis. Yeah, just some casual light reads. It really makes you believe in humanity's capacity for love. This one, though, involved the actual corruption of a democracy. Yes. And there was a hack that happened, and it involved a group of computer scientists who successfully altered a national vote. And it started in the early days of the Internet. And I remember pitching to you guys. What do you think about that? I was in as soon as you said, computer scientists hacking an election. Oh, God. And all of a sudden, it was like that podcast trope of. And the more I started to investigate it, Pablo, the more I realized that what I thought I knew was actually wrong. And the story itself was so much more wildly corrupt than anything that I could dream that it actually became a nightmare. That is disturbingly accurate. Your public radio voice is. Is actually one that has done those stories. It has done those stories. I feel like it wasn't that much of a reach. But anyway, the whole reason why we're out here is because originally, you know, I was like, we gotta go to this landmark. We even found a journalist who told this story who'd been working on it for years. A story that involves what used to be what, the largest democracy in American pop culture. Bigger than sports. I want to make this very clear. We've gone beyond sports, beyond sports, into where the institution known as Total Request Live. The show is Total Request Live.

[Bradley Campbell]

The channel is mtv.

[Pablo Torre]

Your burger is served.

[Yorgo Architas]

And this is our finest Pepsi.

[Pablo Torre]

Zero sugar.

[Yorgo Architas]

Its sweet profile perfectly balances the savory.

[Pablo Torre]

Notes of your burger. That is one perfect combination.

[Yorgo Architas]

Burgers deserve Pepsi. Looking for a sign to start that summer home refresh? Finally, early access to Blinds.com's 4th of July mega sale is happening now. Blinds.com investors invented a better way to shop for window treatments. With upfront pricing, no showroom markups, and.

[Pablo Torre]

No salespeople in your home.

[Yorgo Architas]

Choose from classic shutters to outdoor shades.

[Pablo Torre]

And more, all backed by our 100% satisfaction guarantee.

[Yorgo Architas]

Shop early access to Blinds.com's 4th of July mega sale. Now save up to 40% site wide, plus a free measure. Rules and restrictions may apply.

[Pablo Torre]

So, Yorgo, I am so glad you're here. I need to make this about me for a second.

[Yorgo Architas]

Okay, fair enough.

[Pablo Torre]

Because your odyssey, your personal odyssey into this story, which I'm so excited about, reminded me of the way that my life intersects with it. So this is Yorgo Architas. He is a journalist, a filmmaker, a standup comic book. He's the guy that Bradley connected me with after he met Yorgo deep inside the very same electoral rabbit hole while on assignment from me. Yorgo had spent years of his life, it turns out, reporting a passion project, a forthcoming documentary out this fall entitled Troll, New Kids on the Block, Total Request Live, and the chain letter that changed the Internet. And when I watched this doc, I got a sneak peek. I realized that not only does it capture my sensory memory of the late 90s in a way that is just perfect, it also is necessary for our investigation here, because Yorgo happens to be the key to telling you the untold story of what the actually happened on a momentous day in American pop culture exactly 25 years ago this week. But what I first needed to do was just tell Yorgo all about how I was born and raised right here in New York City, where this entire thing takes place. And I distinctly remember one day when my older sister Tracy, who's four years older than me.

[Yorgo Architas]

Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

Did something that had never happened in our family, which is she skipped school.

[Yorgo Architas]

Ooh. Okay.

[Pablo Torre]

To go to Times Square.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

To go watch a show called Total Request Live. I cannot tell you how many people are outside NSYNC fans. I mean, it's absolutely insane. NSync TV is about to get underway.

[Yorgo Architas]

Please welcome him.

[Bradley Campbell]

They're performing the number one video on call, Request Live.

[Pablo Torre]

Who is NSYNC doing?

[Yorgo Architas]

Tearing up my heart, guys.

[Pablo Torre]

So my ears are actually hurting from the street.

[Yorgo Architas]

That was. You could break glass.

[Pablo Torre]

Actually painful in terms of just the sound of hundreds, thousands of girls screaming for NSync. And they were there to be celebrated on MTV in front of. In front of New York City and America.

[Yorgo Architas]

They're really popping at that point.

[Pablo Torre]

It's tearing up my heart When I'm with you but when we are. So the things that I am already, like, staggered by rewatching this with you in 2024.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Like how perfectly late 90s everything about this is.

[Yorgo Architas]

Oh, the fashion looks like an Old Navy commercial. Look at it.

[Pablo Torre]

JC Chasse, who's singing right now, is wearing an orange button down with a sweater vest over it.

[Yorgo Architas]

It's the silliest thing you can imagine. And then you got Chris Kirkpatrick.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, my God. Wearing overalls and Goggles and has blonde dreads somehow.

[Yorgo Architas]

Look at Justin Terbluk with the. The wet ramen hair.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Yorgo Architas]

Look at that.

[Pablo Torre]

The blonde curls just like piled the top.

[Yorgo Architas]

I mean, they're crushing it though. This is a terrific debut.

[Pablo Torre]

Everybody is eating out of the palm of their hand. And they're the center of the world on mtv. And my sister is in this studio and I know this. There she is on the left. Kind of looks like me right there. Yep. In the gray all the way back there.

[Yorgo Architas]

No way. How about that?

[Pablo Torre]

That is Tracy Torre skipping school, total delinquent. To worship at the altar of peak boy band.

[Yorgo Architas]

Hi there. Wow. Sister Tori. I mean, making, making television.

[Pablo Torre]

So that was September 1998. That was the first month of this show's existence.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

NSYNC was king. And the show itself became like the thing astride, like music and pop culture.

[Yorgo Architas]

TRL was a countdown show, daily countdown show. They do top 10 videos. And the whole idea was born out of, hey, we need to have some kind of programming for children.

[Pablo Torre]

And so It's a top 10 list, which is like not a new foreign concept. But how are they doing it differently?

[Yorgo Architas]

They were making sure that it was voted on by the audience and that it was going to be a daily meritocracy of popularity.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. And every single day democratic process.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

And in this democracy, who is getting elected?

[Yorgo Architas]

Primarily boy bands and pop bands.

[Pablo Torre]

Their fame got to be the point where not only were these teenage girls like and, and young people across America very familiar with them as, as these icons, but the people hosting the show, the vj. I mean, you're go explain the VJ for people.

[Yorgo Architas]

So the VJ is a video jockey. I remember when I was in elementary school, everybody either wanted to be a veterinarian or they wanted to be a VJ when they grew up.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Yorgo Architas]

And a lot of these VJs got massively, massively popular. Number one was obviously Carson Daly. He got plucked from a radio station and just rose to this astronomical fame.

[Pablo Torre]

He was the guy introducing NSYNC in the top of the video we just played.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes. It's wild to me that nobody would know Carson Daly, but I guess I'm very old, but he's on. He's on the Today show now.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right.

[Yorgo Architas]

But then there was other VJs. Like, there was like, I spoke to Dave Holmes. He got very, very popular from that.

[Bradley Campbell]

When it's a teen pop band. When specifically when it's a boy band, the teen, specifically girls go crazy. And suddenly it just had this snowball effect every day at 3 o' clock like traffic in Times Square shut down so that 13 year old girls could skip school and come directly into Times Square and yell at a window.

[Pablo Torre]

This was an economy like the business of this. The effect it had on music itself was real.

[Yorgo Architas]

And sinks. No strings attached comes out. It definitely had the biggest one week sales of all time. And I think it might have eclipsed 2 million in a week, which is a bananas amount of units to be pushing. They're obviously on MTV every day as the number one or number two video occasionally.

[Pablo Torre]

It's basically NSync TV also is MTV at this point.

[Yorgo Architas]

They had to make a rule where you'd retire a video after 65 days. The I Drive Myself Crazy music video where they're just in an insane asylum because a woman was too hot.

[Pablo Torre]

All five of a tail is old as time.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yeah. A tale as old as time.

[Pablo Torre]

And so TRL was very, very important instrumental in the promotion in the showing.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

To the whole country. Here is what's going on. Cool now.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes. And it was Christina aguilera, Britney Spears, 98 Degrees, Backstreet Boys and both Backstreet Boys and NSync. There was kind of a rivalry both from Florida. And they both would just shut down Times Square.

[Pablo Torre]

And the funny part is that like the boy band supremacy of 9899 it resulted, I remember like in like running jokes about how no one can possibly unseat them to the point where like the number three slot on the show was like a running joke.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes. The number three spot was the corn.

[Pablo Torre]

Spot with a K.

[Yorgo Architas]

Freak on a Leash, Yes. Is a terrific song and it holds up. And a terrific music video like this is what's so crazy is like the NSYNC videos were good, Backstreet videos were fine. But then you have like Freak on a Leash where there's a bullet through everything. Like it's animated and it's live action and couldn't beat baby one more time or whatever. Could never just do it. Could never be God. Must have spent a little more time on you.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Just always number three with a bullet.

[Yorgo Architas]

Always number three with a bullet. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Eminem was a major player in this era.

[Yorgo Architas]

He's big because tro. He was a person, I mean, frankly, who was palatable as a hip hop artist to make it onto a mainstream show at that point.

[Pablo Torre]

Limb Bizkit also, of course on the countdown.

[Yorgo Architas]

Very big Kid Rock. There was like. There was like the alternative people for kids who had divorced parents who were like, okay, we need some real stuff. And there were the people who lived in the suburbs who were like, my crush doesn't like me. I need to listen to NSYNC or whatever.

[Pablo Torre]

Than Puff Daddy just showing up, like.

[Yorgo Architas]

Running on a treadmill, probably imagining allegations or chasing him. I think he was P. Diddy at that point.

[Pablo Torre]

And then it was course like Beyonce and Destiny's Child era. Yes, Tom Cruise would show up because everybody showed up to go speak directly to the youth of America.

[Yorgo Architas]

It got to the point where TRL was so popular that they could be like, hey, Tom, Tuesday doesn't really work. Can we. Can we move you to Wednesday? Like, that's how much leverage they had, right?

[Pablo Torre]

So this place, this studio, which was glass windows up above Times Square, like a second floor or so you could see in front of you just like this teeming mass of humanity who would just show up to be a part of the show.

[Yorgo Architas]

Also, because it's pre social media and cameras, being on television meant a lot, even for just two seconds, like, it was cool to be on tv. I know you've been on television for a decade. You don't care. But a lot of people actually do care about just having a one moment and screaming hi, mom at the camera. That doesn't exist anymore. Nobody screams high Mom.

[Bradley Campbell]

Hi, my name is Michelle Marks, and.

[Yorgo Architas]

I came all the way from Gaithersburg, Maryland to request Corn Freak on a Leash because they're my favorite band and I love when the bullet goes into the poster.

[Pablo Torre]

The stakes of this show are now obvious, right? This is an economic juggernaut that was capturing a genuine cultural zeitgeist when it came to young people mattering financially in terms of cultural influence, in terms of all of this stuff. What that meant was that these elections, the Democratic election of who was going to be the number one video, the number two video, all of that stuff really mattered.

[Yorgo Architas]

I spoke to TRL co creator Adam Freeman about this is that they played off it mattering to children and the fact that children and teenagers have no control in their life over anything. They have to find out when they go to school. Everything's very regimented and all their decisions are made for them. But when it comes to fandom and who gets to be on this television show, they got the opportunity to program it, and that was very intoxicating for them.

[Bradley Campbell]

At trl, we were all about connecting the kids with their idols. This was pre Twitter, pre Instagram. You know, you couldn't just log onto Twitter and see what Britney Spears was wearing that morning. If you Wanted to know something about your favorite artist or you wanted to make a connection with them, you needed a place like tierl to give you access.

[Pablo Torre]

So in terms of the high school cafeteria, that is American music at this point, embodied by TRL 100%. If NSync is, you know, prom king, who's now, like, uncool, who do you not want to be associated with?

[Yorgo Architas]

As of this point? I would say in 1999, boy bands that were not cool would be boy bands who are now, like, teenage to, like, young adult man. And it's very uncomfortable to, like, watch them age in that way. And so with that being said, the biggest boy band of the late 80s and early 90s was new kids on the Block. Yeah, they were what we now think of Nickelback and Imagine Dragons. They were that in 1999.

[Pablo Torre]

New kids on the Block, by this point. I remember them also from the time my sister was into them.

[Yorgo Architas]

How old was she then?

[Pablo Torre]

So my sister was born in 81.

[Yorgo Architas]

Okay. Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

The New Kids on the Block, like, they were in her locker for a time. Step one, one, we can have lots of fun.

[Yorgo Architas]

Step two, they were very, very big. And they were all about talking about how tough they were. And that did not seem like something that you'd want to just think is cool 10 years later.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. By this point in 98, 99, it was essentially like watching something in black and white. They were the dinosaur that everybody was off of because they were now entranced by the new shiny stuff.

[Yorgo Architas]

They were just the old antiquated version of what we were watching now. And that just seems lame. That's like. It's like MySpace to. To tick Tock now Nougat's on the Block.

[Bradley Campbell]

Also, they started off very squeaky clean. Please don't go girl, the right stuff, etc. And then as they went on, they started to get more street, you know, and they would do the overalls with one thing undone and, you know, interesting facial hair and tattoos and things of that nature. So they got a little tougher as they went on.

[Yorgo Architas]

Not.

[Pablo Torre]

And so the first boy band commits the cardinal sin of aging. They betray the very premise of their brand. They are now old and uncool.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

And this is to all to say that, like, they weren't on trl.

[Yorgo Architas]

No. Which made them the perfect band to do what ended up happening. And I spent quite a bit of my life trying to get to the bottom of this silly story. I would call it a catalytic moment in trolling history. A chain letter starts going around I.

[Pablo Torre]

Think we gotta explain what a chain letter is.

[Yorgo Architas]

A chain letter is a thing where people would write out just these screeds and just forward them. And then they would most of the time threaten that all your family would die if you didn't forward it. And so in your subject line, it would go forward, forward, forward, forward, forward, forward, forward, forward. And then a whole all caps like you're reading Kanye West's tweets. I'm like, please don't delete this yet.

[Pablo Torre]

And then you disturbingly accurate summary of what would occasionally populate my America Online.

[Yorgo Architas]

Oh, yeah. And finally, American Online started putting into spam. But it was like.

[Pablo Torre]

But it was like essentially threats. If you don't forward this along to however many other people, bad things will happen to you.

[Yorgo Architas]

It was like making people retweet with a knife to their throat. A superstitious knife to their throat.

[Pablo Torre]

Correct.

[Yorgo Architas]

I actually had Dave Holmes read the letter for us.

[Pablo Torre]

Hello, all.

[Bradley Campbell]

This is a chain letter that I am starting. Hear me out. There's nothing I loathe more than chain letters. Well, except for the teenage obsession and recent success of such male quintuplet vocal acts as the Backstreet Boys, NSync, 98 degrees, and 5, the idea struck me like a truck while I was watching TRL yesterday. Trl, for those of you who don't know, is the abbreviation for the showcase of Carson Daly witticisms. That is Total Request Live on mtv. MTV itself being an abbreviation for music television. He's done his research. Here's what we all must pull together and do. Send this email to as many people as possible. The message is simple. On March 10, 1999, everyone who has received this email will get online and before the airing of Total Request Live, cast their vote for the new Kids on the Block epic music video, Hangin Tough. You, in turn, will not reap that's misspelled lifelong rewards and benefits if you do. But you will laugh your ass off if it works. It is the ultimate insult to popular culture. We can make this happen.

[Yorgo Architas]

It's just a pure goofy troll. Just like, yeah, let's just thumb the nose at the people in power.

[Pablo Torre]

And so the thing that they want to infiltrate the democratic machine that is TRL with the thing that is in control of music and culture in 99, is specifically this music video for this song, Hanging Tough.

[Yorgo Architas]

It's not my favorite NKO TV song. Hanging Tough is kind of like the perfect encapsulation of, like, a time that I'm not familiar with.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, the late 80s, yes. This is what I think of when I think of 88, 89, 10 years earlier. Does Big McGruff the crime dog energy a hundred percent.

[Yorgo Architas]

Seeming like. And this would be a thing that became very popular in the 90s was. It seemed like they might have been posers. You just barely got chin hair and you know your voice is cracking because you're going through puberty. What the hell do you know about punching somebody with brass knuckles?

[Bradley Campbell]

We have. We have lines shaved in our. In our hair. We have rat tails, we have. We have distressed denim, we have.

[Pablo Torre]

Early.

[Bradley Campbell]

Hot Topic T shirts, we have fedoras, we have dangling jewelry.

[Pablo Torre]

And so this chain letter in so many words is taking off.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes. It started, I think, in like, in January. Ish. To get to like, the first ever thing is impossible because it threw away emails.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, who wrote the initial email?

[Yorgo Architas]

Well, it is signed by a guy named James Vaughn and it is impossible to find that man because there is no say whether or not it's a pseudonym or not.

[Pablo Torre]

God, this is some V for vendetta. The voting mechanism, though, of how you participate in the democracy of MTV and trl. My sister would call up the hotline and vote for the options presented. Vote for NSYNC all the time.

[Yorgo Architas]

You could vote by phone, which they had a third party that could. That would collect all the data for him and fax it over.

[Pablo Torre]

But there are other mechanisms of democracy.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes, you could also do it online if you went to mtv.com and just there was a whole bunch of options. And then there was other. And you could type, type in what you wanted to see. And that's what they did.

[Pablo Torre]

And so this is where our producer, Bradley Campbell brought me an angle on the story which was about how there were these computer science. Like, this is how big the chain letter movement got, apparently.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

That there are these computer scientists at a university that we cannot legally name, apparently.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

But they basically engineered this algorithm, this program that hacked the vote by repeatedly voting for other. And New Kids on the block hanging tough on the website over and over and over and over and over again to the point where, like, this was now something of a movement and a movement to take over total request live.

[Yorgo Architas]

It was also public that you could see on the website how much the percentage was going. And it was starting to get to like the high 60s for other.

[Pablo Torre]

So there's documentation across the Internet now that this is a thing, that there's a movement forming. There are. There are people who are cheering on the revolution and when do the people who run total requests live in MTV realize this. When did they begin to take this seriously?

[Yorgo Architas]

A younger person on staff goes up to the bigger head honchos and goes, listen, on the message boards they're saying that there's no way they'll ever play it and to frankly stop sharing the chain letter because it's a waste of our time. But on the polls, it's very, very high, so we need to do something about that. And then after this conversation, they start really hunkering down and figuring out what they're going to do.

[Bradley Campbell]

We gave the kids the power, so if we somehow gave them the impression that they didn't have any power.

[Pablo Torre]

What.

[Bradley Campbell]

Are we standing on?

[Pablo Torre]

Shop 4th of July Savings at the.

[Yorgo Architas]

Home Depot right now and get up to 40% off plus up to an extra $600 off select appliances with free delivery like Samsung.

[Pablo Torre]

From all in one washer dryers to smart refrigerators. Upgrade to tech you can trust with Samsung appliances. The Home Depot has what you need.

[Yorgo Architas]

To simplify your routine.

[Pablo Torre]

Don't miss 4th of July appliance Savings.

[Yorgo Architas]

At the Home Depot.

[Pablo Torre]

Free delivery on appliance purchases of $396 or more offer valid June 18 through July 9, US only. See store or online for details. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Sports are all about teamwork and so is insurance. Whether you need an in person or digital assist, State Farm is there to help help you choose the right coverage for your home, car and more. Get a game plan that helps fit your life and talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state. So Yurgo, this brings us to the fateful day in question. This is 25 years ago this week. It is March 1999. What a time to be alive. And who is hosting TRL that day?

[Yorgo Architas]

Dave Holmes was hosting TRL that day.

[Bradley Campbell]

My number one goal was just to not burn it all down when the regular host was out of town, but.

[Yorgo Architas]

Also make sure that before and after every commercial tease that something special is coming.

[Bradley Campbell]

Today's show, folks, brace yourselves. If there's a railing or a wall or a post of some kind for you to hold on to, I urge you to do so. We we have your top 10 requests. As always, two big debuts in the top 10 today, one of which is absolutely going to throw your mind. It's freaking us out over here.

[Pablo Torre]

And they tease this over and over and over again.

[Bradley Campbell]

A debut video that's going to blow you away. And we're going to Send one lucky in sync fan to their show at Nassau Coliseum. It's all coming when TRL continues.

[Yorgo Architas]

Oh, yeah. That's how I know is because I just sat there, nine years old, just so excited. Oh, it could be anything.

[Bradley Campbell]

And we haven't even gotten to our big debut of the day. Once you see that, you what I'm talking about. All right, welcome back.

[Pablo Torre]

It's also like this episode. Rewatching it is it. It. It just bathed me with a warm glow of late 90s nostalgia.

[Yorgo Architas]

100% the turn of the century aesthetic that we. We love so much.

[Bradley Campbell]

But right now, let's get into the request. Are you ready to get into the request, folks? I sure am. Let's start at number 10, shall we? Returning to the countdown at number 10 today, it's sugar Ray with everybody. Now these guys are touring with Everlast right now. They're bringing down the house everywhere they play. They hit Seattle tomorrow night and making a dive on today's show. Down two spots to number nine. It's the Offspring with why don't you get a job? Quite a contrast. They debuted on Tuesday's show at number five, came in like gangbusters. Now they're already down to number nine. What gives, folks?

[Pablo Torre]

And then number eight.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Fat Boy Slim.

[Yorgo Architas]

Fat Boy Slim. Praise you. Terrific music video.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, just like VHS camcorder. Almost like found footage, handheld style of.

[Yorgo Architas]

Them doing kind of a flash mob. An early flash mob in a mall.

[Pablo Torre]

Number seven.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Eminem.

[Yorgo Architas]

Hi, my name is.

[Pablo Torre]

My name is.

[Yorgo Architas]

Hi, my name is.

[Pablo Torre]

Huh? Yep.

[Yorgo Architas]

Just. Just gleefully white trash.

[Pablo Torre]

They switch over to number six.

[Yorgo Architas]

Number six.

[Pablo Torre]

Orgy.

[Yorgo Architas]

Orgy Blue.

[Pablo Torre]

How does it feel? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Yorgo Architas]

I loved that song. Stop making orgy sounds. No, I used to love it. And it was so awkward to go up to my mom and be like, I love orgy. I really want an orgy cd.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, it was a great juxtaposition with number five.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

One of the most iconic songs, I would say, in American history. I mean, I went through puberty not just simultaneous to this song, I would argue, because of this song.

[Yorgo Architas]

It's weird now to say this, but first crush ever.

[Pablo Torre]

It's actually mesmerizing as an artifact.

[Yorgo Architas]

It's the schoolgirl outfit, which was the biggest thing.

[Pablo Torre]

Those lockers, that hallway. At one point, she's holding a basketball.

[Yorgo Architas]

And it's just not. It's simply not hyperbolic to say that. It is one of the biggest and most influential songs of American history.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, Fully agree. And so TRL that day Goes from that into.

[Bradley Campbell]

All right, let's get back into the countdown, shall we? Let's check in with 98 degrees. They drop a spot to number four today. Here they are with the Hardest thing.

[Yorgo Architas]

The hardest thing. I think it's a boxing music video where Nick Lachey wanted to get jacked.

[Pablo Torre]

Very dissonant because the visuals are boxing.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

And the music is something that a boxer would never want to hear before a fight. And then number three in their slot.

[Yorgo Architas]

In their slot.

[Bradley Campbell]

Back to number three today. Here is Korn with freak on a Leash.

[Yorgo Architas]

Banger of a video. There's still movie magic in it. You still don't know how they do the bullet stuff.

[Pablo Torre]

Nope, still don't know.

[Yorgo Architas]

Unfortunately, they were stuck in their spot again.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. As is their cosmic fate.

[Bradley Campbell]

Plus, we have a new number one and a TRL top 10 debut that had our statisticians kind of scratching their heads. We can't figure it out.

[Yorgo Architas]

And he actually scratches his head because he crushes it.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Yorgo Architas]

I mean, he really is a pro. He's terrific. And I'm still just dying to find this out because it's like I'm. Like I'm in third grade and it. I am.

[Pablo Torre]

Are they gonna do it?

[Yorgo Architas]

Are they gonna. What's happened?

[Pablo Torre]

Where's the reveal? It could be anything.

[Yorgo Architas]

It could be anything.

[Pablo Torre]

And so we get in the commercial break that he throws to a Jennifer Love Hewitt neutrogena commercial.

[Yorgo Architas]

Breakouts in those tough to treat, hard to reach areas.

[Pablo Torre]

And when they come back from commercial.

[Bradley Campbell]

Let'S check out the totals for your number two request. I'm telling you, this is gonna rock your world. Now, I got 38% of your emails. That's the highest number ever, highest percentage ever for emails. 26% of your phone votes. Now, yesterday we got a few calls for this video. We had some people outside holding signs. We're not sure what happened. It looks like you people just mobilized and. And put somebody on the countdown today that has never been on the countdown before. New Kids on the Block. I'm. I'm gonna say it again. New Kids on the Block. Hey, you know, you ask.

[Pablo Torre]

We give just a kind of irate groan.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Just rumbling through America's democracy.

[Yorgo Architas]

It's just being upset at a surprise because you can hear in the video, people go, oh. And then they start reacting. They go, oh, no.

[Pablo Torre]

Even the people who were aware of the NKOTB movement, I mean, it was unclear until the very moment they put them at number two ahead of Corn that they were actually going to show this thing that in reality most of America didn't want.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes, but there was just a very small contingent that grew to be a bigger contingent on the Internet that we just wanted it so bad. Just to say they did it just for the goof.

[Pablo Torre]

So I should point out that them getting numbered 2 on the strength as Dave home sided, of 26% phone votes is impressive.

[Yorgo Architas]

It would 100% be very impressive if it was true.

[Pablo Torre]

So explain the truth of this fateful day in music history.

[Yorgo Architas]

So I spoke to one of the handful of people who actually counted the votes and they straight up said that that number could not exist because it's impossible that New Kids on the Block would be an option on the phone voting.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait, so describe how it is that phone voting works. So you had all these options. NSYNC is like, you know, dial one if you want to vote for NSync.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes. And new Kids was not an option at all there. It's impossible that they would have been.

[Pablo Torre]

They didn't put New Kids on the phone voting like ballot they.

[Yorgo Architas]

No, of course not. It was the whole troll. It was just birthed from a galvanizing campaign on the Internet. And honestly, they closed the online voting portion or the polls 12 hours before the show came on.

[Pablo Torre]

Why are they presenting fake numbers? What are they? What is MTV and trl? What are they doing here?

[Yorgo Architas]

It's the kind of stuff that I'm sure executives would proudly brag about at cocktail parties.

[Pablo Torre]

So this is where I do need to jump in and take a breath and just point out that these executives at these hypothetical cocktail parties got away with something, right? This whole fake 26% phone vote thing, These fake statistics that they'd put on a graphic on that episode of TRL that they had had Dave Holmes read aloud. All of it was sloppy, clearly. And clearly a clue, because I need you to remember what the co creator of TRL had told us earlier. He had said he had told Yorgo that the reason these executives all started freaking out about the New Kids stuff was not because of the votes. It was about perception.

[Bradley Campbell]

We gave the kids the power. So if we somehow gave them the impression that they didn't have any power, what are we standing on?

[Pablo Torre]

They were not concerned about the votes flooding their system, conspicuously thanks to Chain letters and Bradley's computer scientist hackers. They were freaking out after people started talking very publicly on message boards over and over and over again about how they were concerned that MTV probably wasn't even gonna count their votes. And so it's finally time to find out the answer to that question, that last part about what TRL was actually standing on this entire time beyond just the New Kids saga. Because again, these TRL executives were not freaking out because their electoral integrity was being compromised by an organized army of trolls. No, they were freaking out because people were questioning their system. They were freaking out because of a secret. A secret they would successfully protect and deny despite a sloppy fake vote percentage and made up statistics for 25 years. And they would have gotten away with it.

[Yorgo Architas]

But I talked to somebody who was on the daily beat of counting the votes and, and accumulating the list and his name was Kevin Hershey and he kind of laid it out for me.

[Pablo Torre]

We definitely had to rewrite the rules for a request show because if we were got to, you got to remember this was such a behemoth and such a money generator. And it was because if you allowed the other sort of category for true fans to just want their death metal band to show up on trl, that wasn't a part of what the show was meant to be. So we had to very democratically decide as a group that we did want to program the show a certain way. So that said, only certain genres perhaps were a part of the voting process. That is a seismic revelation to me.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yeah, it's pretty wild that he said that. And he's being very careful with what Ali's describing it.

[Pablo Torre]

He used the word democratic to discuss the discussion in the room of the executives who are deciding what to put on trl. Which is a funny choice of word because the definition of a closed door meeting deciding the outcome of an election is anti democratic. Yes, in the big picture sense.

[Yorgo Architas]

100%.

[Pablo Torre]

They knew what they were doing the whole time.

[Yorgo Architas]

Of course. Yeah, they 100% knew what they were doing. And they were being very selective and kind of tipping the scales in any way they needed to. In so far as the democracy was not a democracy. No, no, not at all.

[Pablo Torre]

No. I mean, look, the, the. So just to connect all the dots here, the reason why the show had this decision to make, as we discussed, when they were informed of the democratic movement, the grassroots effort to put new kids on the block onto TRL in, in some sort of high ranking spot. The reason they were so worried was not because they were going to put uncool music onto their cool show. Yes, because they had so many votes. They were worried because the foremost laboratory of pop cultural democracy in America was not actually a democracy at all.

[Yorgo Architas]

There's no infrastructure to really, really count every single vote like it's just, it's just a cloudy mess.

[Pablo Torre]

So I wanted to say I. That I appreciate Kevin Hershey coming clean on this.

[Yorgo Architas]

Oh, yeah. I couldn't believe it. Like, we went over there, he was a sweetie. Me and my terrific director of photography, Ben Brady, we went over there and hung out with him. He's like, I'm just going to serve you secrets, bro. Just sit down. And we're doing it.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. So his title was Director of Music and Talent at mtv.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

The entire time engineering what America's tastes were under the guise of just reflecting the will of the people. They were, in a sense, the shadow government of pop culture.

[Yorgo Architas]

And it gets even crazier than that. They had certain data where they could go and look and be like, oh, you know, Texas in the south doesn't really like TRL that much. So we should get Jessica Simpson, who is from the south, and put her on this dial pad, maybe put her even higher up, maybe one or two so you don't have to listen the whole thing. And then we're going to kind of culturally gerrymander to make sure that, that this person becomes a hit.

[Pablo Torre]

The reason why other music videos then were falling in the Countdown was not because of the meritocracy of votes. It was because there were decisions made that in this case seem to be finally and suddenly impacted by the fact that the conversation around New Kids on the Block being this movement were publicly documented.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yeah, it's like, it's quite an embarrassment if you just see everybody being like, oh, you guys are full of shit. And then you end up being full of shit.

[Pablo Torre]

You need to put them into the countdown.

[Yorgo Architas]

You have to, by all means necessary, figure out a way to get there or else you're going to lose this idea of credibility that you have. And then you're. The whole ruse is up.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Yorgo Architas]

The whole thing's done.

[Pablo Torre]

In my mind. It's like, look, we never actually plugged in these voting machines, but now all of these people are lining up at them and they're all leaving with the exit polls indicating they're all voting for New Kids on the Block hanging tough. So if we don't put the most obvious exit poll result into our countdown, people are going to wonder, what about the voting machines?

[Yorgo Architas]

Their decision making process was the most fascinating part of this whole thing to me.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Yorgo Architas]

Why they decided to put it at number two. The reason why they put it at number two, which is probably why they tease it so much, is because they wanted those people to watch as much. The people that were trolling watch as much as humanly possible, all the way, all the show, and get all of those minute by minute ratings that are so crucial. And so they get it and they decided to put them at number two. So then they kind of win, but they don't let the trolls fully win. And then immediately after this and they get all the ratings for it, which is just a brilliant plan for an executive.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, also because, I mean, of course, like number one is going to be NSync.

[Yorgo Architas]

God must spend a little more time on you. Yes, yes, always.

[Pablo Torre]

And it sounds like what they wanted to do was manage this thing such that the people who were trolling them got some element of satisfaction, but not the full satisfaction that would have resulted in follow up reporting, which is what.

[Yorgo Architas]

Happened on the message boards afterwards where they were like, oh, okay, at least we know the TRL isn't totally rigged, right? Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

What they did not count on was that 25 years later, one of those kids watching TRL would be like, what.

[Yorgo Architas]

The hell's going on here? Why the hell did that happen?

[Pablo Torre]

How did New Kids on the Block themselves feel about being the subject of this troll job? And now quietly, this epic judo move on the part of music television executives.

[Yorgo Architas]

Because of how big TRL was. Columbia actually called one of the executives and said, thank you very much for doing that record. Scales skyrocketed. I don't know if Bradley told you about this, but Bradley told me that he had a friend who worked at Sam Goody and for a week in 1999, the guy was like, I don't know what the hell's happening, but New Kids on the Block is flying off the shelf. We can't keep this greatest hits on there. I don't know what's going on. So that's how it happened in the moment. But I spoke to one of the New kids on the block, Joey McIntyre, and got his perspective on it.

[Bradley Campbell]

I don't remember it vividly, but I do remember it happening. Just sweet little Valentine from the block, blockheads.

[Yorgo Architas]

But he wasn't completely aware that it was a troll.

[Pablo Torre]

That was my question, was how much did he know about all of the reporting that you've now revealed for the first time?

[Yorgo Architas]

I revealed it to him in person.

[Bradley Campbell]

Maybe I'm not young enough to know exactly what a troll is, but I mean, adoration and fellowship and passion for something you love is. It's sort of a black and white thing, you know, how you package it.

[Pablo Torre]

Or whatever it is.

[Bradley Campbell]

It doesn't matter. I mean, what You. You have to recognize it at a certain point. And I think, you know, that's what happened.

[Yorgo Architas]

They might have been trolling, and maybe I don't understand what a troll is, but it's good to know that people still give a right.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Yorgo Architas]

And this obviously was probably just a blip for the New Kids on the Blocks career. They ended up selling out arenas and still do really, really well. But what it meant for the Internet is a different kind of thing because it's really the first example of the Internet coming together to troll just for a goof and the institution being like, all right, we'll do it. We have to do it. We're backed into a corner. And this leads you to, you know, Pitbull, a couple of years ago, had to go to Walmart.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, in Alaska.

[Yorgo Architas]

In Alaska, because of an online vote.

[Bradley Campbell]

There's a huge Walmart Slash Sheets energy.

[Pablo Torre]

Strip campaign going on. And I heard that Kodiak, Alaska has the most lights.

[Yorgo Architas]

And he actually did it because he's Mr. Worldwide. And you have examples like that.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, the boaty McBoatface thing.

[Yorgo Architas]

Boaty McBoatface thing. The natural Environment Research Council asked the public to help name the UK's newest $300 million research ship leading in the vote so far. Boaty McBoatface. Where does that come from? There's so many different examples of this happening. And it all just started with this crazy chain let on Total Request Live, emboldening groups to know that it's possible.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. Which is all to say that even if the thing they were subverting and. And taking hold of for one day was not itself truly democratic, the. The movement that forced their hand was populist.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Having now learned the truth behind this fateful day 25 years ago and what really happened, what are you left for?

[Yorgo Architas]

Feeling all of the people who got mad about MTV and had conspiracies about, like their. Like all the record labels are in their pockets.

[Pablo Torre]

Corn cannot possibly always be number three.

[Yorgo Architas]

They were actually right. And it's very funny. And I think now, yes, we are.

[Pablo Torre]

The freaks on a leash. Yes, a leash held by corporate television overlords.

[Yorgo Architas]

And now I look at a whole bunch of different situations when it comes to showbiz and just kind of wonder what's going on behind the curtain. And I don't throw away kind of any conspiracy when it comes to show business, but the number one thing that I think I took away from it is that it does not cloud my vision of Total Request Live in any way. It is not like in in no way has it solid anything that I know about trl because it's a vibe.

[Pablo Torre]

Look, their core insight was this is a show for kids.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Allegedly by kids.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

The latter part was not true, but the former part is so resonant such that today, 25 years later, I still feel like it. Yeah, I still feel like a kid watching that show.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yeah, it's totally. It's like, it's perfect and it's so of a time and it's something that you can't really. It's a really, you had to be there kind of thing.

[Pablo Torre]

TRL goes off the air. It's November 16, 2008. There's this big grand finale show.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

The run ends after 10 years and 2,247 episodes. Damn. That's pretty impressive in retrospect. It's weird to do an episode where we expose something and are simultaneously nostalgic.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

For what I was sold.

[Yorgo Architas]

I don't feel cheated in the least bit, like, at all.

[Pablo Torre]

What. What Total Request Live did was recognize and risk and fear and respect, like, the young person as like a thing that mattered, as a thing that was worth strategizing around and investing in.

[Yorgo Architas]

Like, it's really. It would felt like it was cool and it was for big kids.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Yorgo Architas]

And the concept of big kids I've forgotten about, but it was a real thing.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Kids getting to feel like they were at the grown ups table.

[Yorgo Architas]

And not only were they at the grownups table, they had to choose what they ate.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Yorgo Architas]

That's pretty cool.

[Pablo Torre]

God, even if it turns out that our parents were in charge the whole time.

[Yorgo Architas]

Yeah. The entire time. They were just making us like, no, you need to have your, your, your nutrition.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, you need to have your corn.

[Yorgo Architas]

Oh, you. Pablo. God damn it.

[Pablo Torre]

Your go. Thank you for your reporting. Thank you for, and I mean this sincerely, thank you for bringing closure to. To my puberty.

[Yorgo Architas]

Oh, I think you're still a couple years away from that.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay. For more info on your goes doc, which is very, very different from this episode, I will point out, please check out trolldoc.com it's going to have its world premiere at the Cinequest Film Festival in Silicon Valley this Sunday. It'll be screened at the Florida Film Festival and the Dallas International Film Festival Festival in April with a lot more to come. But for now, this has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production and we'll talk to you next time.