The Ayahuasca Era: How Neal Brennan Finally Found Joy (and God)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Ayahuasca Era: How Neal Brennan Finally Found Joy (and God)"

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out
Host: Pablo Torre
Guest: Neal Brennan (comedian, writer, co-creator of Chappelle’s Show)
Date: January 25, 2024
Episode Theme: Exploring how psychedelic plant medicine, specifically ayahuasca, transformed the mental health, spiritual outlook, and daily experience of comedian Neal Brennan.

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Pablo Torre interviews Neal Brennan about his personal journey with ayahuasca, delving into profound questions about joy, depression, spirituality, and the hype/cynicism surrounding psychedelics. This is a frank, comedic yet deeply thoughtful exploration of mental health struggles, the search for happiness, the limitations of Western medicine, and the transformative (but also complex and risky) impact of plant medicines on the psyche.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Neal Brennan’s “Ayahuasca Era” and Public Curiosity (00:50–03:34)

• Brennan notes how topics he’s asked about have shifted—from "Chappelle’s Show" to mental health, and now to ayahuasca.
• He jokes about being the “king of deep background” and reflects on public perceptions versus his real inner life.

Quote:
"Now we're into the Ayahuasca era, so pretty great... That should be the first comment, 'Not this again'."
— Neal Brennan (00:59)

• Pablo acknowledges the profundity Brennan ascribes to ayahuasca, likening Brennan’s personal testimony to a “Road to Damascus” moment.
• They touch on the controversy with public psychedelic users, e.g. Aaron Rodgers, and the risks of promoting "the medicine."

Quote:
"I was a smug atheist. And now—I'm still... The smugness hasn't changed one bit, guys—but I'm… Now I believe in a God based on my experiences with ayahuasca, which is like, pretty significant.”
— Neal Brennan (05:19)

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2. Neal’s Mental Health Journey and Medication Limitations (07:14–09:55)

• Brennan describes having long-term, clinical dysthymia (“You don’t experience a lot of joy, if any”) in contrast to casual “I’m so depressed” talk.
• He details his extensive attempts with Western treatments: SSRIs helped slightly, TMS (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation) helped slightly, but nothing felt like a breakthrough.

Quote:
"SSRIs… That’ll get you a slightly improvement. But I just wasn’t—I was like, there’s gotta be something better… all slight improvements, but I felt like there was something better.”
— Neal Brennan (08:15)

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3. The First Ayahuasca Experiences: Emotional and Spiritual Breakthroughs (10:09–14:32)

• Brennan’s first experience was "pleasant" but not overtly spiritual, bringing a profound sense of connection and unexpected emotional release (tears about tribal humanity).
• In a subsequent, ceremonial setting, he had a “bullseye” experience—intense joy, a sense of being in the presence of God, and a lasting conviction in a central creative force.

Quote:
"I opened my eyes at one point, I was like, oh, I'm in the presence of a God right now… Since then—my belief hasn’t wavered.”
— Neal Brennan (13:16)

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4. Life Changes and Lasting Effects (15:07–20:23)

• Ayahuasca gave Brennan a “rerouted nervous system” and enduring changes in daily mood, values, and perception.
• He’s no longer on antidepressants (can’t mix with ayahuasca), and his professional ambitions shifted toward emotional goals—pursuing joy, pleasantness, and connection over material success.
• Brennan emphasizes his continued capitalism, but with less attachment to perpetual growth as life’s main metric.

Quote:
"One of my purposes is to have fun and be and have joy. That’s one that I feel like I can actually accomplish a little bit.”
— Neal Brennan (20:14)

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5. Repeated Use, Risks, and “Performance-Enhancing” Claims (17:32–24:39)

• Brennan engaged in repeated ceremonies, partly to solidify the insights—a spiritual “upkeep.”
• He jokes: "A lot of people go to Florida that much during COVID—sorry, I got to meet God, you suckers.” (18:17)
• On physical effects, he corrects misconceptions: ayahuasca does not always make people vomit (one in 15 times for him).
• He discusses experimenting with DMT and “bufo” (toad venom), leading to overwhelming flashbacks and states he likens to being “in a white void before the Big Bang,” lasting up to 7-8 months.

Quote:
"I only use these broad terms because I was in a white void before the Big Bang. Excuse me.”
— Neal Brennan (00:06 & 23:25)

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6. Transformation in Professional and Personal Life (26:14–29:34)

• The effect on Brennan’s comedy: he feels funnier, sharper, more loving, and audiences respond more positively—a tangible change he attributes to his experiences.
• Feedback from friends and loved ones confirms a new lightness, less anger, and greater capacity for love and connection.

Quote:
"I had people that didn’t know anything that were like, what did you do? Like almost like I got surgery or something. I’m also just less angry in general, just less argumentative…”
— Neal Brennan (28:01)

• He’s less competitive/combative in relationships, shifting from “scarce resources, conflict” to understanding and peace.

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7. Critique of Spiritual “Shortcuts” and Cautions (29:34–33:37)

• Brennan pushes back against notions that ayahuasca, or any medication for that matter, is a “shortcut.”
• He highlights the randomness of inherited trauma and mental health, challenging the Protestant work ethic’s insistence on ‘earning’ happiness.
• Brenan cautions ayahuasca can have severe side effects, some studies on MDMA and psychedelics are questionable, and it can be psychologically overwhelming or destabilizing for some.

Quote:
"It’s not easy. It’s not a party drug."
— Neal Brennan (33:15)

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8. Psychedelic Hype, Placebo, and Political Realities (36:19–42:00)

• He’s skeptical of trendy catch-phrases like “ego death”—questions whether anyone, including himself, can really separate reality from self-justification in these matters.
• Brennan acknowledges the role of placebo, echoing that actual quality-of-life improvement is ultimately what matters, whether due to plant medicine, a sugar pill, or "venom of a toad."
• There are real political dangers to the psychedelic “revolution.” A single high-profile disaster (e.g., the Alaska Airlines/mushrooms incident) could trigger reactionary bans.

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9. Personal Practice: “Reality Checks” and Final Reflections (42:03–end)

• Brennan still does “reality checks,” quadruple-checking daily that he remains grateful and doesn’t hallucinate hardship. The index card of positive reminders from his “Three Mics” special is now less about survival, more about sweeping out old negativity.
• He reflects humbly on uncertainty—he’ll never know if ayahuasca or personal growth got him here, but he is better now.

Quote:
“I have no real problems… Someone not responding to my text is not a problem.”
— Neal Brennan (44:10)

• Brennan and Torre end by pondering the impossibility of transplanting one's own spiritual breakthrough, but expressing hope that more people find genuine relief—by whatever means work for them.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “I was a smug atheist. And now… Now I believe in a God based on my experiences with ayahuasca, which is like, pretty significant.” (05:19)
• “SSRIs… That’ll get you a slight improvement. But I just wasn’t—I was like, there’s gotta be something better.” (08:15)
• “It was like: welcome to Ayahuasca. Here you’re gonna have a sense of tribalism and a thing that you’ve never felt in terms of connection to all of humanity.” (11:48)
• “I opened my eyes at one point, I was like, oh, I'm in the presence of a God right now… Since then—my belief hasn’t wavered.” (13:16)
• “Because I get to meet God.” (18:17)
• “I only use these broad terms because I was in a white void before the Big Bang. Excuse me.” (00:06, 23:25)
• “I had people that didn’t know anything that were like, what did you do? Like almost like I got surgery or something. I’m also just less angry in general, just less argumentative…” (28:01)
• “I didn’t earn the problem. Meaning the problem was either like abused into me… You didn’t work to get it. It was just given to you. So… this is the one that’s worked the best.” (30:11)
• “It’s not easy. It’s not a party drug.” (33:15)
• “I have no real problems… Someone not responding to my text is not a problem.” (44:10)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:50–03:34 — Introductory banter; why Neal is now asked about ayahuasca; early reflections on public projection vs. private reality
• 07:14–09:55 — Neal’s history with depression; failed conventional treatments
• 10:09–14:32 — First and second ayahuasca trips: emotional and spiritual breakthroughs
• 17:32–20:23 — Ongoing ayahuasca usage; relationship to antidepressants & personal values
• 21:18–24:39 — Discussion on DMT, “bufo” (toad venom), and overwhelming mystical experiences
• 26:14–29:34 — Professional and personal transformation; how others perceive the change
• 29:34–33:37 — Spiritual shortcuts and risks
• 36:19–42:00 — Placebo, hype, and fearing the political backlash of a future “bad trip” story
• 42:03–45:41 — “Reality check” rituals; closing reflections on self-esteem, gratitude, and what’s real

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Tone and Style Highlights

• Conversational, self-effacing, and deeply honest.
• Neal mixes humor, skepticism, and awe; Pablo brings journalist’s curiosity and skepticism but with warmth and openness.
• Both explore, rather than preach; there’s an emphasis on humility and on the limitations of one’s own experience as a model for others.

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Memorable Moments

• Brennan likening his encounter with God on ayahuasca to the ending of “Raiders of the Lost Ark,” but without the Nazi melodrama (13:45).
• DMT/“toad venom” trip leaving him in a dissociative state for months—wondering if “I am in God’s imagination?” (24:45)
• Repeated teasing about who the mystery co-tripper was ("Chris Rock," acknowledged around 10:15).
• On the idea of making The Rock or Kevin Hart the “face” of ayahuasca—“send The Rock to a time before the Big Bang.” (41:47)

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Closing Reflection

Pablo sums up the ineffable nature of these experiences and the limits of journalism—he cannot transmit Brennan’s spiritual or psychological transformation through words alone, but hopes listeners glean some sense of possibility and hope.

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For listeners and readers alike, this episode offers a candid, nuanced window into why and how psychedelics—far from being a simple panacea—have the power to deeply alter not just one’s outlook on life, but fundamentally reroute one’s approach to joy, pain, purpose, and connection.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out I am Pablo Torre. And today we're going to find out what this sound is.

[Neil Brennan]

I only use these broad terms because I was in a white void before the big bang. Excuse me.

[Pablo Torre]

Right after this ad. You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network.

[Neil Brennan]

I see a little Pablo, but he's in the corner, so. Oh, you know. There he is. There's my guy. Hey, this is full.

[Pablo Torre]

Make me big.

[Neil Brennan]

Around the horn.

[Pablo Torre]

Make me big. Yes.

[Neil Brennan]

Am I centered or ish? Is my eyeliner.

[Pablo Torre]

Neil looks fantastic. Is what.

[Neil Brennan]

Thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

Is what people here are saying. Many are saying that Neil looks fantastic.

[Neil Brennan]

Pretty. What else is new? Am I right, ladies, what do the.

[Pablo Torre]

People who bother Neil Brennan for interviews mostly want to talk to you about?

[Neil Brennan]

Well, for a long time it was Chappelle show and then people said I talked about that too much. And then, then it was mental health. People said I talked about that too much. And now it's. Now we're into the Ayahuasca era, so pretty great. That should be the first comment. Not this again.

[Pablo Torre]

So Neil Brennan did co create and co write one of the greatest television shows of all time. We should reaffir. You might actually remember him from his role alongside Dave Chappelle in their sketch about the blind black dude who did not know he was a white supremacist.

[Neil Brennan]

That's your face. We want to see your face. Who said that? You want to see my face, Clayton? Go on, brother. Do you want to see my face? Don't be afraid, Jason, we talked about this. Don't be afraid.

[Pablo Torre]

Neil is also responsible, by the way, for one of my favorite Netflix standup specials, three Mics, which I saw him perform live in New York in 2016.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah, I was lucky enough to have dropped out because I realized early on that these student loans are basically small business loans and the business is you. And you're maybe not such a great business. Look, if they call them small business loans, no 18 year old kid would ever get the loan because it's a bad idea for a business. If you had to go to the bank, to the small business desk and ask me like, yeah, I'm gonna need $150,000. They'd be like, all right, what's your business idea? All right, here's the idea. For the next four years, I'm gonna get blackout drunk, but also I'm going to get a degree in sociology.

[Pablo Torre]

But what Neil is here to discuss today is in fact his plant based psychedelic era. Because the way sports always talks about ayahuasca is through jets quarterback and casual Internet conspiracist Aaron Rodgers. As Rodgers just informed Pat McAfee earlier.

[Neil Brennan]

This month, I can speak from my own experience. It was life changing, has been life changing. And it's going to be something that I look forward to doing in some form or fashion. So I've seen as well.

[Pablo Torre]

And so I figured it was time to commune with the person that I know who is most passionate and most experienced about this very subject.

[Neil Brennan]

Pablo, you said something to me a long time ago that stuck with me. Well, it didn't stick with me. Then came back around. You needed a quote for like a LeBron article or something, or maybe deep background. Sometimes I do deep background. Neil Brennan, the king of deep background. And we did the phone call and you go, all right, just go back to the Neil Brennan lifestyle of comedy and sketches and, and great, great life. And I was like, he doesn't know anything about my life. And then I recently come around to your, Your point of view on my life, which is way. A way better point of view on it then. Then you shouldn't often think about people's perception of you. But if it's better than your own, maybe there.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. You want to be the Neil Brennan that I've always imagined you.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

To be.

[Neil Brennan]

I've finally accepted.

[Pablo Torre]

You are on the ayahuasca subject, by the way, the person I now know and genuinely like, am curious about because you testify to the profundity of the change that it, that it wrought upon your life in a real way.

[Neil Brennan]

I testified about it in the court of Joe Rogan, the highest court in the land. Of course.

[Pablo Torre]

Imagine if God was real and you could get in front of God, but the only way to do it is to eat mushrooms.

[Neil Brennan]

He'd be like, wait, what? I would argue that's true.

[Pablo Torre]

It might be.

[Neil Brennan]

I mean, you know what I mean? Like in my experience. But it might be you. It's the only way now. The, the good thing is it's in me now. I have credibility in that I was a. A smug atheist. And now.

[Pablo Torre]

Is there any other kind?

[Neil Brennan]

I'm still. Look, the smugness hasn't changed one bit, guys. That. But I'm. Now I believe in a God based on my experiences with ayahuasca, which is like, pretty significant.

[Pablo Torre]

It's about the greatest endorsement one could give about profundity. That's possible.

[Neil Brennan]

I, I agree. And now I would like to say, before I say anything about it, because you were you. You. I think you're couching this in the, in the Aaron Rodgers. Under the Aaron Rodgers Rogers umbrella. And.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, now we are officially.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes, but there's a thing in 12 step programs in AA and all the other ones that you don't say you're in them because if you say publicly, I'm an AA and then you're. People see you're drunk, they go, well, a. Doesn't work. A lot of this. Don't listen to any of the spokespeople. Will Smith's been a spokesman. You know, it's like people that have come out and said they did it, and then everything they do, you go, well, that clearly doesn't work. So Aaron Rodgers goes after Kimmel and you go, well, clearly this ayahuasca is not working. Don't credit or blame ayahuasca for anything, including my own conversion, my own Road to Damascus experience. That's just mine. There are 8 billion people on earth and I'm. I'm. There's going to be 8 billion different experiences around what we call the medicine.

[Pablo Torre]

There it is.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I hope that you would. That you would start calling it the medicine Aya.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes, I call it Aya. You can't. Not once you've done it.

[Pablo Torre]

You've been on a quest for something that long predates this specific medicine. So for people unfamiliar with your quest, with your oeuvre, how would you have described your relationship with the concept of joy?

[Neil Brennan]

So I have a type of depression or had a type of depression. Wink. Don't want to spoil the punchline called dysthymia, which means you don't experience a lot of joy, if any. So I'm depressed, and not the way you normally hear that. Like, I'm so depressed. Kobe retired. I mean, like, I have clinical depression, the mood disorder, and I've had it for as long as I can remember. I think my brain, whereas most people have, you know, oxytocin and dopamine and serotonin, I had a shortage of that. I had a lot of cortisol. So I, meaning I'm very harsh. I'm obsessed with justice and fairness, and I think it's a thing you see in a good amount of people. So I would take SSRIs, which is a serotonin. Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, which means serotonin. The little I have gets shot onto my brain plate. And the ssri, Zoloft in this case would leave it on the field longer before it would re. Uptake it. Right. So that. Get that. That'll get you a slightly improvement. But I just wasn't. I was like, there's gotta be something better. There's gotta be something better. Did a thing called tms. Transcranial magnetic stimulation. Where I was. It's firing magnets, basically MRI magnets at a portion of your brain. Did it in LA seven years ago. Did it in China right before COVID Again, all slight improvements, but I felt like there was something better. And then somebody texted me an article about ayahuasca and was like, we should do this. And we did it. And it has. It's been transformational in terms of my overall mood and my kind of perception of most things. I just have better values and I don't take things so literally. And I'm just. It's a better experience for me day to day.

[Pablo Torre]

We're talking about pandemic era.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Experimentation.

[Neil Brennan]

A lot of people bake bread. I. I drank a Amazonian plant medicine.

[Pablo Torre]

With who, Neil? I want to be specific.

[Neil Brennan]

I don't want to say with who, just with.

[Pablo Torre]

You've said it before. Why are you not saying?

[Neil Brennan]

I don't know, because it just seems. It just seems. It just seems fishy.

[Pablo Torre]

But can I say it?

[Neil Brennan]

You gotta say it. I can't stop you. But. But a comedian friend of mine sent me. The thing was like, we should do this. And we did it.

[Pablo Torre]

Correct? Correct. So it was Chris Rock. So, listen, what I wanted to figure out with you, Neil, is that first time, okay, how immediately obvious was it that this was the thing that was the skeleton key that would somehow unlock whatever image you had, the vault behind which Joy was. Was kept from you.

[Neil Brennan]

The first time I did it was like a private. Like just at somebody's house. And what I got felt like a sampler of the. Of ayahuasca in general. Meaning I got. I saw the speed with which my thoughts could go with mushrooms. You'll have like a. 10 hilarious thoughts in a minute.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Neil Brennan]

And this was like 50. And I actually went like, wow. Because it was like. Then I cried for two hours about groups of people. I'm not the most social guy. Not. Not more of an introvert. Something about, like, groups, people. It just felt like something tribal. And it was really nice. And the cry was, like, pretty thick. It was like one of those things where, like, how is this still happening? And then it was kind of over. It didn't feel like I had much of a spiritual breakthrough, but it was very pleasant. I told somebody. It's like when you. When you check into a hotel and there's an ad for the hotel on the monitor, like, welcome to the Bayside Hilton or whatever. It was like that. But for ayahuasca, like, welcome to Ayahuasca. Here you're gonna have a sense of tribalism and a thing that you've never felt in terms of connection to all of humanity.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right. Mario Lopez, by the way, still selling movies.

[Neil Brennan]

No, he comes on after. Yeah, he comes out after. And by the way, always louder than you want it to be. When extras next playing, it's always louder than you want it to be. And you can't find the remote. And when you do, you have some questions about why it's sticky.

[Pablo Torre]

Now.

[Neil Brennan]

That was the first time. So then did it another. Then found somebody, found a ceremony in LA, went. Did it, you know, 30 people, more official, you know, more ceremony. And didn't feel anything, drank it didn't feel anything on the first night. So I said to the guy on the second night, I'm like, hey, I could. We need to kind of recalibrate because it's worked for me before. And then I drank, I think a little more. And Bullseye was like, right there. And I was experiencing a lot of joy, like unbridled joy, like grinning joy, grinning hot face joy that you might experience on other medicines. Cops call them drugs, I call them medicine. And then I opened my eyes at one point, I was like, oh, I'm in the presence of a God right now. It felt like the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark when they opened the Covenant. Open the ark, and the stuff's flying around. It's not evil yet. It gets evil once it gets to the Nazis. I don't want to ruin. I raise a lost ark for people.

[Pablo Torre]

Spoiler alert.

[Neil Brennan]

The Nazis didn't get a connection to God. If you're in the. If you're. I'm spoiling it. I'm not going to say how they.

[Pablo Torre]

Did you did Neil Brennan.

[Neil Brennan]

I just got the connection I actually got. And I felt like, oh, I'm in the presence of a God right now. And pretty much since then, it hasn't. I. My belief hasn't wavered. And again, it's not religious. It's not. I don't need you to not eat certain meats. You can sleep with whoever you want. You know, whatever you need to do, you go ahead and do it. But I personally believe that there's a central creation force based on the experience I had drinking ayahuasca. But it's carried itself through.

[Pablo Torre]

I imagine it's incredibly difficult to fully articulate or intellectualize what it is that was the stimulus that sparked that specific central cosmic force that you now actually have conviction in. But what do you want people to know about that feeling such that we others may benefit from feeling it?

[Neil Brennan]

I'm approaching it kind of from a place of self interest, which is. I would. It's given me not even the God part per se. I kind of believe my nervous system has been rerouted, which, if scientifically, Ayahuasca. The, The. The studies. There haven't been a ton of studies, but the ones they have done, it is something called neurogenic, where it creates new brain cells, which is kind of the only substance that does that, that on Earth other than this podcast. And. And so I can't very well say you're a sucker if you don't believe it or you should or any of that stuff. And I don't ex need anyone to confirm it or deny it or it's like that's what happened. So I don't. It's a bit of a UFO thing. I don't need to. Like, I know I was on a ufo. Like, whether you believe it or the government, I. I don't care.

[Pablo Torre]

Is it comforting, like, the feeling of this knowledge, this conviction. Is that a comfort to you? As the notion of joy or whatever you requesting for is concerned?

[Neil Brennan]

It is. And it's really. It can be very scary and. Which is kind of an unexpected thing. Like, there's a. I feel like sometimes in movies when like a deity or whatever force appears or. Or is experienced, people throw up. I get it. I get it because I'm like, boy, this is a lot. This is a lot to sort of think. You think? Because I can't say. I know it. I. It's a lot. It's just that sometimes it's like, it's a lot.

[Pablo Torre]

How much for you, was there actual throwing up?

[Neil Brennan]

Oh, yeah. These people are always very concerned about throwing up. How many people threw up from alcohol last night? Just ballpark. Ballpark, ballpark. Just do America how? And people never say alcohol. Is that. That stuff that makes you throw up. But that's people's first question. Iowaska. So I'm always like, no, you're thinking of alcohol. That's the stuff that makes you throw up. Ayahuasca. I've thrown up once in 15 times, and that's because I drank too much.

[Pablo Torre]

You drank too much of the. Of. Of the magic.

[Neil Brennan]

I drank too much Ayahuasca? Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Neil Brennan]

So I can't. I. But any other time, I've never. Youo crap your pants? No, I've never. I've never seen anyone do it. I've never. I've seen people throw up. It's not uncommon, but it's not guaranteed.

[Pablo Torre]

No. No judgment on. On. On the barf.

[Neil Brennan]

Great.

[Pablo Torre]

I am, though, curious about how you go from trip number two to three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. So how does your quest continue such that you're like, this is the thing that I want as part of my actual upkeep.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah. Because I was sort of of the mind that I needed to solidify it. The. The sort of thing that had been revealed to me or opened up in me or however you want to say it. So that's kind of why I was doing it so much. And it was. Yeah, it was Covid. Nothing else going on. And it's a beaut. It's like somebody asked me, why do you do it so much? I'm like, because I get to meet God. Sorry. A lot of people go to Florida that much during COVID Sorry, I got to meet God, you suckers.

[Pablo Torre]

Antidepressants and SSRIs. Where are you on that regimen after your ayahuasca?

[Neil Brennan]

You can't do them if you're. If you drink ayahuasca. So I've been off them for two years.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, how do. How in your brain do you distinguish between the mental health benefits and the existential sense you have of what you're here to do?

[Neil Brennan]

So, because I believe in God, is that affecting my mood or. Or what is it? What is my. My existential purpose? I don't think it's changed because I had a friend, my friend Ban and I, when he did it with me, he was like, are we going to be able to be capitalist after this? And. And like. I know what he meant. But, yeah, we. I'm still a capitalist.

[Pablo Torre]

Neil, are we. Are we about to be poor?

[Neil Brennan]

No, I mean, that's. He was kind of. He was just kind of like, are we going to believe in Western values? But the thing. I do believe in them less. I do believe in them less as a guiding light. Like, I. I think I'm. I'm apt to want to grow every quarter less than I was before I was. I mean, it's like capitalism tells you, like, if you're not. Did you make more money this quarter than last quarter, then you're a failure. Like, I'm less on that. I still have a lot of it in me, though. But in terms of, like, my purpose, I don't think my purpose has changed other than. Ironically, I think one of my purposes is to have fun and be and have joy. That's one that I feel like I can actually accomplish a little bit.

[Pablo Torre]

As in you now can believe with conviction that you're put on this planet to actually enjoy it.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah, I think that that's what my. A lot of my professional goals now are emotional meaning I would like to just be pleasant and in a good mood most of the time. And like, well, what are you going to do for work? I don't know. Like if I. If it's. It's like I could run a juice shop and be. Obviously I'm invested in this competition I'm a part of, but I also am. I'm more concerned with. And then how's it. How am I going to feel?

[Pablo Torre]

Right. The competition is where I wanted to go next. Because this notion that again, there is a mental processing speed, at least during the experience of taking ayahuasca, that was. That was, I guess, mind blowing in all of the senses. To what extent do you consider this a performance enhancing medicine?

[Neil Brennan]

Let's call it ayahuasca. Didn't necessarily make me funnier. DMT did. But that's a whole other issue that may be the next chapter or something. That's the thing called bufo that I did once in New York.

[Pablo Torre]

Am I wrong when I say this is the toad related thing?

[Neil Brennan]

Yes, this is the toad. I believe this is the one that Mike Tyson talks about.

[Unidentified Speaker]

It takes you to another level. Hiawatha is nothing compared to this, the toad. And it's in the Sonora Desert and has a venom in it. You smoke it. Once I tried it, boom. My brain was still functioning. My thoughts, I could still talk to myself. I could hear my mind. And I was saying, I up and I killed myself. I. I'm dying. It was just really mind blowing.

[Neil Brennan]

5 Meo DMT. Bufo Alvarius is what it's called. Or just DMT. And so like a natural. It's a toad secretion. They dry it out and you smoke. Always seemed too severe to me. And then.

[Pablo Torre]

It sounds severe, Neil.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah, it was. It was too severe. So I didn't know that though. All right, I did know it. And then I forgot. I don't want to say destroyed my brain. I'm in my brain. It was crazy. It was very crazy. And it was. The experience was crazy. And then I had a reactivation a week later. And that was the craziest thing I've ever experienced by a factor Of a thousand.

[Pablo Torre]

As in you were just going about your day and then you were back.

[Neil Brennan]

What they call it, what they used to call an acid flashback.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Neil Brennan]

This was like a DMT flashback or reactivation. So now I'm in life and half of me's on DMT a little bit. And the thing that they don't tell you and I found out later is that 77 0% of people that smoke DMT 5 Meo DMT have a reactivation at some point. Some are short, some are. Mine was not short. It. It opened something up in my mind again. It was like a God central creation force. What I believe is caveat. Caveat, Caveat. It opened that up too much.

[Pablo Torre]

What did you see though, Neil? What did you sort of encounter? If you could verbalize what too much was.

[Neil Brennan]

The actual experience, the 25 minutes or so was. I was in a white void and it was what Michael Pollan, who wrote how to Change youe Mind.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. It's a great book.

[Neil Brennan]

Yep. He smoked 5 Mao DMT and he described the place that he went to and it was a perfect description when I. When I read it afterward. He went to before the Big Bang. How's that sound? Does that sound comfortable? So I was there and I didn't know anything. I wasn't. I. It was a first person experience, but I didn't know breathing, sight, direction. I didn't any space, any. I didn't know anything. It was a blank slate of my own comprehension of consciousness. Again, these are all very big. It was. I. I only use these broad terms because I was in a white void before the Big Bang. Excuse me. That was like manageable. The 25 minutes, the reactivation is where it started to get crazy because I'm in my life. I'm walking around in the Village.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Where were you?

[Neil Brennan]

I was in New York. I was doing blocks in New York.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Your show, your last one man show.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes, my award winning Netflix. Is your life going smoothly? Are you just floating event to event, feeling good about yourself? Because I'm not. So I'm there doing it and I'd be walking down the stage to the show going, why are steps like. Just stuff that you're. It's like things that I would take for granted. I was re. Had to remind myself like no, you're a person in life. It was like real back to basics, fundamental chest pass, bounce pass, life stuff. And yeah. And I. One point I thought, am I in God's imagination? Just stuff that's not real helpful. But, but, but yeah. And and it was hard and it took me, what I thought it took about seven or eight months to get through. And then it turned out it didn't really end until an ayahuasca ceremony last March where I felt the door close that had been opened by dmt, like in my mind, sort of like a door closed. And I was like, I was in that that whole time. Like I didn't realize. I thought it was over like a year and a half ago and it turns out it was over like eight months ago. So it was ain't. But now here's the upside. Funnier, more loving, sharper, honestly, more energy.

[Pablo Torre]

Because the door got closed. You now have these.

[Neil Brennan]

Once the door was open, I was, I was better the whole time. Oh, I was better the whole. Like, I, I didn't. Yeah, the. I thought the door was closed and I was better, but the door was still open and I was better. So I was better. Audiences like me more just all intangibles and somehow I was freer as a person.

[Pablo Torre]

Something that I, I want to probe a bit is just the difference between your perception of something and the actual thing you are perceiving. Because what you're describing are seemingly benefits that you have noticed. And I'm wondering, how are you pressure testing these notions? How do you square that circle for yourself?

[Neil Brennan]

Fallen in love more often, like literally, statistically, fell in love twice in the last year and a half and the year and a half before that. Didn't fall in love at all. Maybe we blame the ladies. I'd like to blame me. My spirit, the big bang. I get bigger laughs from crowds. I can tell I'd never in my life ever felt like Bill Burr on stage before. And there were a few moments where I was on DMT and I was like, oh, this is what Burr must feel like on stage.

[Pablo Torre]

The other way, though, to feel whether this is working in the way that you're imagining, of course, is to hear it from the people whose relationships you are now more open to or nurturing or how do the people around you, Neil, whether it's friends, family, your, your girlfriend, what do they say about you now?

[Neil Brennan]

They say, I mean, I had people that didn't know anything that were like, what did you do? Like, that would just come up to me like, what, what did you do? Like, almost like I got surgery or something. I'm also just less angry in general, just less argumentative, just stuff that again, I can't quantify per se, but I can tell you firsthand that people that know me well have been like, what.

[Pablo Torre]

Is different about you as a person in a relationship, a person in love.

[Neil Brennan]

I don't want to win as badly. It's the thing of, like, what am I trying to get to. And I'm trying to get to, like, understanding and peace and less recrimination and less. What am I guilty of? What are you guilty of? Because I'm all. I'm Catholic, I'm Irish Catholic, you know, 10 kids, whatever. It's all combat. I don't know if you know anything about me, but I'm the youngest of 10 kids. And I don't know if you know much about math or kids, but 10 kids is too many kids. Everything's combat.

[Pablo Torre]

So this scarce resources, conflict.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah, yeah, so. And retribution and blame and self pity and like all of these things that are like my currency are less. I just don't feel the need to do them.

[Pablo Torre]

The notion of how this intersects with therapy is something that I'm curious about too, because I think a criticism from afar from people who have not dabbled in psychedelics or certainly done ayahuasca 15 times or. Or the toad venom once. I think there is this suspicion that this feels like an attempt to get a shortcut, that there is some shoots and ladders ing past the work.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

And you are somebody, of course, who has gone to therapy. I don't know where you are in your therapy now, but how does this all fit together?

[Neil Brennan]

I used to hear that about medication.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Neil Brennan]

And again. So what I would say is, all right, how's that ozempic treating you? Like, I. You know what I mean? Like, I don't. Why make. Why the Judeo or the Protestant work ethic of like, you gotta earn this. I didn't earn the problem. Meaning the problem was either like abused into me. My parents were old when I got here. I'm the youngest, so they were in their 40s when I got here. They were from the. They were born in the 1930s, so they were from the we did the best we could generation. If you criticize their parenting in any way, they would just to go, ah, we did the best we could. And I always felt like, really, that was the best you could? So, dad, you'd get drunk, hit your kids and think to yourself, no, this is me at my best. Or humanity has real. Just walking around issues from jump. You come out the chute, you. You're conscious and you're like, why am I. Why do I have a tick? It's not so. So then it's. You gotta work to get rid of it. You didn't work to get it. It was just given to you. So. And I went to therapy for 20 years. It was. And I used to yell at my therapist, I can't keep talking about this. It's in my body. I've done a lot of different kinds of therapy and this is the one that's worked the best. It's not going to work for everybody. Some people are it, it can also, it should be noted, have severe, severely negative effects.

[Pablo Torre]

So what, what do you know about those? Do you know about those because they've happened to friends of yours because you've read about the negative effects?

[Neil Brennan]

I do want to read about them significantly more than I haven't. I mean my own DMT experience sounds pretty scary. You know, as much as everybody wants to open up the, the floodgates of like it's a revolution and then, and then you, you. There's certain MDMA studies another thing that I've gotten a lot of benefit from MDMA where like some of them are a little fishy. You know, some of the studies are a little. Either cooking the books or the therapists aren't being appropriate and, or with, with ayahuasca or mushrooms. Like some people have short term bad experiences. Whether it's just, it's too much, they, they, they're incredibly disoriented. And then I think some people can, you know, quote lose their mind. Ayahuasca is not the most pleasant experience you're ever going to have meaning on the medicine. It can be nauseating, it can be overwhelming, it can be psychologically difficult in terms of what you're experiencing. Just in terms of even dealing with a central creation force. In my own experience, it's a lot to go inside the fabric of humanity and consciousness. It's not the easiest thing you can do on a weekend. Now I don't think it makes me a hero for doing it because I have. There's a ton of upside and I am kind of predisposed to be interested in it. But, but it's not easy. It's not a party foreign.

[Pablo Torre]

What does the concept of ego death mean here, Neil? Because I've heard that term, Aaron Rodgers and I'm curious because ego of course when it comes to anybody who works in, in the spotlight, in public. You know, I remember, I remember hearing you say this or reading about you saying it. But the notion that like reviews of you co wrote Half Baked with Dave Chappelle.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And reviews were so scathing that that helped push you towards antidepressants I don't.

[Neil Brennan]

Know if that's the western crucible in terms of what someone in. In any business has to deal with of like X. I don't want any extra. I don't need any external validation. Were social animals. That's. I don't think you're honest if you say you don't need external validation. You don't want your mom to love you. That's external validation. You want your husband, your. It's like it's all your brother sisters, community, respect. I think it's dishonest to say that we don't. A person doesn't need external validation in terms of ego death. That's not something I've experienced. I've gotten DMT flattened me to the point where I was like I don't know what's happening. That's pretty close to. I mean it it. I don't know if it's ego death but it makes ego totally irrelevant because your priorities change to like. I would just like to kind of understand what steps are intuitively and so I haven't experienced ego death. I have experienced re orientation in terms of values but that again that's just me. I also think it's a lot of. It's just people talking meaning ego death. One person says ego death and then the, and then everyone wants to say it. It's like a new term. It's like trauma or, or toxic or anything. It just becomes a cool thing. Anything. Any of it. So like I don't know it sounds cool. You. If you say I had an ego death you're kind of saying like so I'm pretty much set in terms of personal behavior because it's not coming from a place of ego because it died. So I'm going to do everything I anything I want from here on out and it's going to be justifiable to me and it's going to make you doubt. Doubt when you think I'm wrong you're gonna be like but he had an ego death. So I don't. I almost don't trust anything people say including myself about any of this.

[Pablo Torre]

I wonder about the placebo effect. I think it's one of those fascinating concepts that exists.

[Neil Brennan]

Yep.

[Pablo Torre]

This notion that we don't fully understand how this works the black box. But somehow our brain if persuaded of something can actually enact that something in the absence of actually the. The literal something that is imagined. I suppose what's so encouraging listening to you sort through your own self scouting report is you have a conviction that this is making your life better. And in the end, whether this is the, the venom of a toad or this sacred substance that is a vile.

[Neil Brennan]

Thing, basically just make tea. Yeah. That's ayahuasca or a sugar pill. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I, I, I would like everybody to feel better if it actually means you're better.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes, the, I, I would like that as well. I, I'm of the mind that if there's a revolution coming with, with psilocybin and, and ayahuasca and all that stuff, that a lot, a lot, a lot of people are going to get helped and some people are going to get very harmed now.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Neil Brennan]

For mushrooms, for example. A couple months ago, guys on mushrooms rushes the cockpit following breaking news. I know you're following this on an off duty pilot accused of trying to turn off the engines mid flight during an Alaska Airlines flight flight over the weekend. I know. We have new documents. What have we learned? This story just took a bizarre turn, Kate. A new federal complaint says that this off duty pilot, Joseph Emerson, may have been taking psychedelic mushrooms.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Neil Brennan]

If that plane crashes, this revolution's over. It's over.

[Pablo Torre]

It's a hard thing to spin for the mushroom lobby.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes. And the, but the, also the fact the guy hadn't slept in two days. No one's going to say we need to mandate sleep. They're going to say we need to mandate an absolute prohibition on mushrooms. So I'm, I'm with you. And, and as someone who's done it a number of times, I don't know if it would help you. I can't guarantee any outcome. It's just a thing that I felt. And again, they say, like felt called to do. I don't know. I, it's Chris sends me a text. I'm like, all right, like I can figure this out. But in terms of like, was it divine and was it I? That stuff, I have no idea. Like, I, I think to even think you know, is you're lying yourself. It's ego death. So it's an ego, it's from the, from the people who brought you ego death. I was called.

[Pablo Torre]

I do think it's funny though, how preemptive, all of us who are in favor of people getting help and, and the science and really the law catching up to the science and the science catching up to the spirituality. Whoever's in favor of all of that, we must be. I consider myself in that population. That's why I'm having you on the show. I, I like how preemptive we all are about the ways that this politically can just crash into a ditch. Because you started this whole conversation by pointing out, you may be aware, listener, that Chris Rock and Will Smith have both enjoyed ayahuasca. You may remember them from such scenes as the time one of them slapped the other in a way that felt like the ego was very much alive.

[Neil Brennan]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And. And, and with the Aaron Rodgers thing. Aaron Rodgers, now the face of this.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

I wonder what you. Neil Brennan, if I were to appoint you political strategist for the thing that we're here to talk about, Ayahuasca more than any of the other, with any of the other psychedelics.

[Neil Brennan]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Who would you want in the commercial? Which. Which person do you think is most persuasive to a larger population of people as to the very notions that you're.

[Neil Brennan]

Of course it's the Rock. But in some ways there is something so private and personal about it, even with. In terms of Chris, Will and Aaron Rodgers. Like, I don't. I don't even know if I should talk about it. Meaning, like, I don't know if I'm a good spokesman or if I'm painting a picture or if I should paint any picture whatsoever. Like, I don't know. Because in some ways it is as personal as a religion. Like, meaning who am I to tell you about it?

[Pablo Torre]

Right. My Catholicism is not yours. We can practice, eat at the buffet of spirituality quite differently under the same restaurant name.

[Neil Brennan]

And people don't even read the Bible the same way. You know, like there are. There is no book and there is no, like read. There's no, there's nothing. There's like, you just try it. Try. And it might, it might change your life significantly.

[Pablo Torre]

You would though, like the Rock to be sent to a time before the big bang.

[Neil Brennan]

Well, I feel like he's there most of the time anyway. A time before SummerSlam. The. The. Yeah. No, I. Again, the rocks or Kevin Hart. One of the. One of the other.

[Pablo Torre]

What I am marveling at is that there is a certain clarity.

[Neil Brennan]

Mm.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm not gonna psychoanalyze you through the zoom screen, but I do notice that there's a certain clarity that makes me wonder about the stuff that you used to say about your. I won't call them previous with knowledge, but at the very least your pre existing anxieties and neuroses. I remember in one of your specials in. In three mics, you talk about how you used to carry an index card around so that you could feel better about yourself.

[Neil Brennan]

To say I have low self esteem is not true. I have no self esteem. Like, I don't have the architecture for good feelings. You give me a trophy, it'll just slide right down. Like, I. I just don't have the shelving. In fact, I used to have to carry around an index card of funny things I'd written or said or directed just to try to remind myself that I was okay. I'm still doing that, but it's totally different now. I do it. You want to know why? And I do this. I started doing this like a month ago. I do a fact check of my life out of gratitude to. More to the thing that you said earlier. Of like, go back to the Neil. I have to remind myself because my brain will still try to tell me, despite all the ayahuasca I've drank, that things are. People are out to get me or people don't respect me or all this stuff. All just the negative. The negative feedback loop. So, yeah, I'm. I still do that. I do it four times a day. I just check. Just check in. Like a reality check of like, no, this is what's happening. That was. It was really touch and go back then in terms of self esteem. Now it's the thing I do now is more just to like sweep. Just to sweep any sort of lingering like, nope. Get out. No, no, no. Get out of here. Get out. No, no, no. Like my. My girlfriend said, it's like cats in a deli, like, where I'm just like, cats in. I'm like, no, get out of here. No, no, no, no, no. Go. That's basically what I'm doing.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Neil Brennan]

It's part of the thing. And when I do my reality checks where I go, like, you have this. Stop it. Stop. I'm like hallucinating enemies and hardships. I have no problems. I have no real problems. Have you watch. Did you watch that Beyond Utopia North Korea documentary?

[Pablo Torre]

No.

[Neil Brennan]

It's about people escaping North Korea kind of in real time on. And they have handheld. It's like, you. I don't have a real pro. I don't have problems. There's a World War II thing on Netflix and you go, I think this. I have problems. The Russians are eating their own horses. I don't have problems. Someone not responding to my text is not a problem. So. So I don't know if that's ayahuasca gave me that or I came to it on my own. We'll never know, guys. It's all far too late.

[Pablo Torre]

Neil Brennan. I just want to say thank you for being the Neil Brennan, finally, that I've always the dream.

[Neil Brennan]

I'm finally living your dream. That's right. Pablo's American dream, Right?

[Pablo Torre]

So, as I sit here at my keyboard wondering what it is that I found out today, I realize that I have fallen short of my mission here, because I'm supposed to find out all I can about ayahuasca. And I could have done ayahuasca, I could have done dmt, I could have better explained all of this to you, but I didn't. And I'm sorry, because for all of the Aaron Rodgersization of psychedelics, I do believe they are actually revolutionary. Ayahuasca is legitimately on my to do list. At some point, Neil even said that he would consider joining me. But in the meantime, in an attempt to just better convey what the experience might actually feel like, which is hard to describe, what Neil did instead was text me a link to a song, a song that is incredibly difficult to categorize itself, but it is a song that to him, resembles how ayahuasca feels. And so at the end here, I just hope that you can join me in closing your eyes and sitting down somewhere, somewhere and enjoying the song playing inside. Neil Brennan's.

[Neil Brennan]

Mari J? SA O.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out A Meadowlark Media production and I'll talk to you next time.