Pablo Torre Finds Out – The Butthole Story (Or: A Thoughtful Conversation with Sue Bird and Ezra Edelman)

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out
Host: Pablo Torre
Guests: Sue Bird (WNBA legend, podcaster, entrepreneur), Ezra Edelman (Oscar-winning documentarian)
Date: December 17, 2024

Overview

In this "talkumentary" episode, Pablo Torre hosts an open, witty, and reflective conversation with women's basketball legend Sue Bird and acclaimed filmmaker Ezra Edelman. The discussion weaves through what it means to build identity and success after elite careers, evolving definitions of professionalism, the boom in women’s sports and documentaries, honesty in media, and yes, the origin of “The Butthole Story.” Layered with sharp humor, sports culture insight, and self-deprecating asides, the trio explores shifting landscapes — from redefining careers post-retirement to how we judge the authenticity of storytelling and journalism itself.

Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life After Sports and Achievement: Sue Bird’s New Phase

• Sue's Current Identity and Success Metrics (04:49-07:16)
  • Sue reflects on moving beyond her playing career, sharing how her current "success" is less about fame or income, and more about not feeling “the grind.”
  • “It does not feel like a grind. So that’s success.” – Sue Bird [07:06]
• Adjusting to a New Pace
  • The adjustment to weekly podcasting and public life is discussed, comparing it to the rigorous demands of being a professional athlete.
  • Sue owns that nothing post-basketball quite matches the purpose and high of playing:
    • "It’s still not playing basketball...it would have been wonderful to be able to capitalize on all this as a player, just because that’s what I was born to do. That’s why I don’t think I want to let go of it." – Sue Bird [16:46]
• Identity After Retirement
  • Despite branching into entrepreneurship, broadcasting, and team ownership, Sue admits she still introduces herself as a “retired WNBA player” [14:02].

2. Pablo’s Struggle with Labels and the "Elevator Pitch" Dilemma

• Pablo’s Professional Self-Definition (08:13-09:34)
  • Pablo walks through his discomfort with the term “podcaster,” preferring “journalist,” and highlights the weirdness of naming and explaining his show.
  • “It will never feel cool to say I podcast… it’s even weirder for me to have to say, I host a show called Pablo Torre Finds Out. That’s me.” – Pablo Torre [09:34]
• Meaning of the Show
  • Pablo clarifies that the heart of the show is authentic curiosity, using sports stories to touch wider cultural topics and create inclusive, engaging narratives, even for people outside sports fandoms [10:53-12:04].

3. Changing Media Landscapes: Women’s Sports and Documentaries

• Women’s Sports Enter the Mainstream
  • Discussion shifts to the surge in popularity and investment in women’s basketball and sports, with Bird noting both pride and frustration about not reaping these rewards during her career [16:24-18:13].
  • “It is not a guilt trip… there’s just real money in this, and that must be profoundly fun…” – Pablo Torre [15:44]
• Documentaries: Authenticity vs. Entertainment
  • Edelman provides a nuanced critique of current documentary trends [19:07-22:01]:
    • He distinguishes between artful, journalistic docs and those that edge towards “branded content” or become “collaborations” with celebrity subjects, often losing impartiality and depth.
    • “This sort of idea of documentary filmmaking as journalism is being sort of pushed by the wayside… what gets made, what we value, because it’s still a commercial exercise. We are, after all, a capitalist society.” – Ezra Edelman [21:21]
  • Debate ensues over where to draw the line for “true” documentaries and how much creative control subjects should have [22:59-24:13].

4. Anecdotes: Inside Basketball, Referees, and the Queen of Courtside

• Life Courtside as a Retired Star (25:02–27:36)
  • Bird describes the odd feeling of “royalty” she gets sitting courtside (especially as part owner in Seattle), yet admits she remains poker-faced during regular season games—playoffs are different.
• Referee Relationships
  • Bird illustrates how her long-term consistency with referees fostered mutual respect, leading some refs to later acknowledge mistakes—a dynamic unique to a small, close-knit WNBA [28:16-30:46].
  • “I think I was consistent and I think what that brought was like a little bit of good faith and trust. And so if I did have a really big reaction to something, I think referees understood that I wasn’t doing that just to be like, demonstrative and because I was pissed.” – Sue Bird [28:54]
• Unfiltered Game Analysis
  • Sue’s bluntness about playoff “messiness,” fatigue, and refereeing is both expert and unsentimental, showing her high standard for the game [26:07-27:29].

5. The Infamous “Butthole Story” and Interview Nerves

• Origin of the "Butthole" Motif (31:43–33:52)
  • Bird recounts Coach Geno Auriemma’s locker room gesture to illustrate nervous, “tight” play—waggling three clenched fingers at his players: “This is all your buttholes right now.” [33:37]
  • The concept becomes a running joke for moments of peak tension or nerves.
• Tightest Interview Moments
  • Edelman admits to having his “tightest butthole” interviewing Larry Bird, who was “so intimidating because he’s not gonna sit there and smile and make you feel comfortable.” [35:06]
  • Pablo confesses a similar experience interviewing LeBron James, feeling starstruck and overwhelmed [37:25].

6. Ethics of Journalism and Friendship in Interview Contexts

• Trust, Friendship, and 'Ickiness' in Finding Stories (40:06–41:54)
  • Bird is honest about the ethical dilemma of pressing friends/former colleagues for personal or controversial stories—something that feels “icky” to her as a recent subject-turned-interviewer [41:54].
  • Pablo and Ezra admit they’re less hesitant, seeing the “earned” trust and the obligation to tell stories as part of journalism.
• Impact of Preparation
  • Edelman emphasizes that demonstrating genuine preparation and respect makes even the toughest interviews possible: “That tends to be the skeleton key that unlocks so many people.” – Pablo Torre [36:40]
• The Power of Emotional Moments
  • Bird shares how, on her own pod, she witnessed Mia Hamm get emotional over genuine reconnection with the current U.S. women’s soccer team—an unplanned, serendipitous moment only close peers may have accessed [43:06-44:21].
  • Pablo and Ezra discuss the tension between capturing such moments for "clip-worthiness" and the actual intention behind the show [45:16–46:13].

7. Reflecting on Fame and Personal Psychology

• Navigating Newfound Prominence
  • The group ponders the awkwardness and self-consciousness that arise from being both interviewer and subject, questioning how much to share (and how much audiences really care) [46:27-47:36].
• In-Jokes and Podcast Easter Eggs: “Butter Me”
  • Sue, clearly a regular listener, teases Pablo about his “Butter Me” saga—having a sculpture of himself made from butter—underscoring the show’s blend of the profound and the absurd [47:38-48:29].

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sue Bird on Success Post-Retirement:
  “It does not feel like a grind. So that’s success.” [07:06]

• Pablo on Media Self-Perception:
  “It will never feel cool to say I podcast… the point being that I end up talking about how I use my curiosity to solve mysteries.” [09:34]

• Ezra Edelman on Docs-as-Journalism:
  “This sort of idea of documentary filmmaking as journalism is being sort of pushed by the wayside… because it’s still a commercial exercise. We are, after all, a capitalist society.” [21:21]

• Sue Bird’s “Butthole” Anecdote:
  “He comes in and he just looks around, makes eye contact and he goes: Do you know what this is? This is all your buttholes right now.” [33:37]

• Ezra on Interviewing Larry Bird:
  “He's so intimidating because he’s not gonna sit there and smile and make you feel comfortable.” [35:06]

• Pablo on Emotional Interview Moments:
  “With the craven enthusiasm of someone who's like, that's gonna be a good clip.” [45:11]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Sue Bird’s Podcasting Life and Success [04:49–07:16]
• Pablo’s Elevator Pitch Challenge [08:13–09:34]
• Women’s Sports Entering the Mainstream [15:44–16:46]
• Documentary Filmmaking Debate [19:07–22:01]
• WNBA Playoff Mess and Refereeing [26:07–30:46]
• The Origin of the Butthole Story [31:43–33:52]
• Handling Tough Interviews (Larry Bird, LeBron James) [34:10–37:25]
• Ethics of Friendship and Journalism [40:06–41:54]
• Mia Hamm's Emotional Interview [43:06–44:21]
• Podcast In-Jokes—Butter Me [47:38–48:29]

Tone & Style Notes

• The episode is marked by casual familiarity: inside jokes, self-deprecation, and generous honesty abound.
• The conversation is equal parts light-hearted, nostalgic, and intellectually rigorous.
• All three participants maintain a tone that's enthusiastic about curiosity and learning, even when critiquing their own industries.

Summary Takeaway

This episode is both a meta-podcast about podcasting and an intimate window into the post-peak lives of elite professionals. It trains a curious and critical lens on sports, media, and the ways we tell and live our stories. With humor and gravitas, the trio examines the fraught but fruitful ties between subject and interviewer, and the ever-shifting lines between journalism, entertainment, and friendship. Plus, you’ll finally know why—sometimes—everyone’s playing too tight.