The Fake Sports Scandal Taking Over Fox News

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Fake Sports Scandal Taking Over Fox News"

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out
Date: May 6, 2025
Host: Pablo Torre (with guest Andrew Fishel, fencing coach/whistleblower)
Main Theme:
A revealing look at how a minor fencing protest spiraled into a national "scandal" championed by Fox News and U.S. government officials, exploring the motivations, misinformation, and real issues behind the controversy surrounding transgender athletes in sports.

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1. Episode Overview

In this episode, Pablo Torre examines a recent fencing controversy that exploded in right-wing media and political circles: a protest by fencer Stephanie Turner over competing against a transgender woman, Red Sullivan, at a small, non-elite tournament. Torre and guest Andrew Fishel—fencing coach, referee, and whistleblower—deconstruct how the story was distorted into a symbol in the culture war over trans athletes, exposing layers of political opportunism, media manipulation, and misplaced priorities.

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2. Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Origins: Whistleblower to Watchdog

• Andrew Fishel recounts how, after exposing corruption in Olympic fencing (saber), he became an official whistleblower for the French Olympic Integrity Committee, helping implement anti-cheating protocols at Paris 2024.
  (00:55–02:01)
  "It's nice to know that because of our efforts, those Games were a little bit fairer." —Andrew Fishel

Setting the Stage: The Fencing Incident

• Fox News covers a March 30, 2025 fencing match where Stephanie Turner protests fencing a trans opponent by kneeling and refusing to participate, resulting in disqualification.
  (03:39–06:56)
• Turner is celebrated as a hero on Fox News; high-level politicians, including Ted Cruz and Linda McMahon (Secretary of Education), seize on the event to push anti-trans sports policies and investigations.
• "Stephanie, it's so great to have you on. So many people are looking up to you because you are so courageous." —Fox News Commentator (05:03)

The Media Frenzy vs. Reality

• Extensive Fox News coverage contrasts sharply with fencing's usual obscurity.
  (05:47)
  "Typically, we have had to convince people to pay attention to fencing." —Pablo Torre
• Turner’s actions spark a federal Title IX investigation and congressional hearings, blurring real sporting issues with political theater.

The Tournament Was… Unimportant

• The much-publicized event was a low-level "Cherry Blossom Open" at U. Maryland, not an NCAA or Olympic qualifier, featuring two D-rated, (in fencing terms, distinctly amateur) fencers: Turner (31, not a NCAA collegiate athlete) and Sullivan (a sophomore, recently banned from NCAA events by executive order).
  (13:00–14:48)
  "It was a deeply unserious, unimportant tournament." —Andrew Fishel (14:19)

Rules, Misrepresentations, and Misinformation

• Turner had previously fenced (and beaten) men in a mixed competition a week prior to her protest, undermining her narrative of safety/competitive concerns.
  (19:57–21:44)
• The black card (disqualification) was standard procedure for refusing to fence any eligible opponent, unrelated to the protest’s content. (21:51–22:52) "It's not about trans, black, white, Asian, religious, whatever. If I refuse to fence an eligible opponent, I am going to be disqualified." —Andrew Fishel

Debunking Trans Athlete Myths

• Pablo and Andrew stress the arduous process and rules for trans women to compete: a year of hormone therapy, strict documentation, and no observed pattern of “gender switching” for competitive gain.
  (23:49–27:30) "How many men...are willing to take female hormones, lose their muscle mass, lose their athletic edge, feminize their appearance, and live their lives as a woman in order to beat girls in a sport that pays less... It's not happening." —Anonymous Tweet, read by Andrew Fishel (26:56)

The Real Scandal: Policy, Pressure, and Distraction

• Executive Order 14201 (Trump administration) bans trans athletes from women’s events, threatening USA Fencing’s Olympic status.
• USA Fencing caught between U.S. government pressure and IOC policies requiring inclusion of trans athletes.
• Congressional obsession with this marginal episode occurs as the economy flounders—highlighted by concurrent news tickers on Fox News ("the Dow is plummeting").
  (34:00–35:22) "It is no coincidence, I think, that the trans athlete tends to be even more loudly proclaimed as a problem when there are other actual, real problems." —Pablo Torre (35:09)

The Real Fencing Scandal: Cheating, Not Identity

• Torre and Fishel pivot to recount an actual cheating case: Soviet fencer Boris Onishenko’s electrical buzzer; and more recently, Italian fencer Lucia Lucarini’s father allegedly manipulating scoring equipment.
  (37:31–45:31) "It's always confusing to me that people would cheat—don't you want to win because you're better?" —Andrew Fishel (46:04)

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the magnitude of the scandal:
  "This is a D-rated fencer at a meaningless tournament for casuals who got the same punishment anyone anywhere would get if they withdrew from any match." —Pablo Torre (29:06)
• On the tone of media coverage:
  "There is a very familiar and established playbook for athletes who are not among the best in their sport...claiming to be victims...and now I can be a spokesperson invited to Washington." —Pablo Torre (33:09)
• On what truly matters:
  "There are real scientific debates and questions to be raised...But what is so undeniable...is how unbelievably overblown and...politically convenient the coverage...continues to be." —Pablo Torre (36:09)
• On distraction politics:
  "Is there a trans female athlete out there somewhere that someone feels victimized by, that we can talk about really loudly for the next 20 minutes?" —Andrew Fishel (35:22)
• On the lure of real fencing intrigue:
  "Fencing never lacks for creative problems...half of the rules about equipment were because someone found a way to cheat with them at some point." —Andrew Fishel (39:17)

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4. Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:55–02:01 — Fishel describes becoming a fencing whistleblower, helping Paris Olympics
• 03:39–06:56 — Fox News and political uproar over Turner’s protest against Red Sullivan
• 13:00–14:48 — D-ratings explained: “deeply unserious, unimportant tournament”
• 19:57–21:44 — Turner’s prior participation against men debunks safety/competitive fear claims
• 21:51–22:52 — Torre/Fishel clarify fencing’s black card rules
• 23:49–27:30 — The reality for trans athletes: rule compliance, the long road to eligibility
• 34:00–35:22 — Media distraction, economic news paired with trans athlete outrage
• 37:31–45:31 — The “real” fencing scandals: Soviet/electronic cheating, Lucia Lucarini allegations
• 46:04–47:29 — Fishel on integrity: “I want to beat people because I’m better”
• 47:30–End — Big-picture wrap-up: misplaced priorities, ignoring real issues

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5. Conclusion

This episode brilliantly skewers the manufactured scandal’s absurdity, revealing how a trivial sporting event was mythologized by media and politicians eager for a wedge issue, while actual challenges within fencing (like corruption and cheating) remain overshadowed. Torre and Fishel combine journalistic skepticism with fencing expertise and dry wit, demystifying both the sport and the culture war fog that envelops it.

Tone: Inquisitive, skeptical, humorous, and incisive—Torre and Fishel balance sharp critique with clear explanations, making the episode accessible and engaging even for fencing novices.

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Bottom Line:
The real "fake sports scandal" isn't in the fencing salle, but in how politics and media manufacture victimhood and controversy to mask deeper, more pressing problems.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[Red Sullivan]

She says, you are a man, I am a woman, and this is a woman's event. And I will not offense you right after this ad.

[Pablo Torre]

You're listening to DraftKings. So when you were here last on the show, helping us investigate, helping us uncover the most corrupt sport in the Olympics, saber fencing, which was a story that went all the way to the top of the sport, all the way to Russia and beyond, oligarchs and international, you know, scandal.

[Andrew Fishel]

Like a poorly written spy novel or something.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, yeah. Honestly, it's a yes. That now feels even more cinematic, because when you left our studio and went back to your life as, in my opinion, the foremost expert on fencing in America, you became an actual recognized whistleblower.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yes, that's correct. So shortly after that happened, I was contacted by someone in, we'll just say the French Olympic Integrity Committee. They said they had seen the show and some of the other things that I had released about the corruption.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Andrew Fishel]

And asked if I was worried that that would happen in Paris as well. I told them I was very worried that that would happen. And they basically asked me to fill out a form for the French government designating me a whistleblower in France, and then also had me highlight pretty much instructions for how I thought that that kind of subversion could happen at the Olympics and my suggestions for how to prevent it from happening. And they basically implemented a system that was watching for those things and tried to prevent them from happening, which is.

[Pablo Torre]

To say, Andrew Fischl, good to have you back in studio.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah. Out of. Out of everything that's gone on, even if I never accomplish anything else again in the sport, which I hope doesn't happen, but even if it does, it's nice to know that because of the efforts that we have put forth, those Games were a little bit fairer. And that's something that people work their whole life towards. So I felt just an amazing sense of relief that someone was actually taking that seriously enough to act on it.

[Pablo Torre]

And that seriousness and that approach, I just want to make it clear to everybody who already is like, oh, my God, you're doing another fencing episode. The reason I'm doing it is because this story is unbelievably interesting. Whether you give a single about fencing or whether you devoted your whole life to this, as you have. As you wear, by the way, your USA fencing garb in multiple forms. Yeah, yeah. Multiple layers of. Of patriotism. When it comes to the integrity of American fencing.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

And by the way, I want to also credit the people who participated on that show we did last year who, in various ways that I cannot fully disclose, were contacted by law enforcement overseas. Just like real man, real. And so the reason you're here today is an interesting inversion of this premise of here you are the whistleblower for the integrity of fencing. Now evaluating what is the biggest story in all of sports, according to Fox News.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah. And the U.S. government, Staten Island, New York, Wagner College.

[Pablo Torre]

A female fencer standing her ground by taking a knee and reflecting refusing to compete against a biological male. A video from over the weekend shows that Stephanie Turner forfeiting a match, taking off her helmet, taking a knee against a transgender athlete. Referees gave Turner a black card, which immediately disqualifies her from the entire competition.

[Fox News Commentator]

Global attention. After a female fencer was given the ultimate punishment for refusing to compete against a biological man.

[Fox News Anchor]

A female fencer stands up for fairness in women's sports.

[Andrew Fishel]

These men are cowards.

[Fox News Anchor]

They're failed men competing against women.

[Department of Justice / Education Official]

This is a combination, as I said, of DOJ and Department of Education, because DOJ has the ability, you know, to file criminal charges.

[Fox News Commentator]

That was a single issue for many voters who, yes, realized they had been indoctrinated by the mainstream media when the reality was so clear when it's facing you and when that person facing you is holding a sword.

[Pablo Torre]

For those who haven't been watching a ton of FOX News recently, haven't been watching the articles, the comments from J.K. rowling to Martina Navratilova, to certainly cabinet members like Linda McMahon, whose voice we heard, the former wrestling promoter turned secretary of education of the United States. How would you describe the tonnage of coverage here?

[Andrew Fishel]

It's been just continuous.

[Pablo Torre]

Stephanie, it's so great to have you on. So many people are looking up to.

[Fox News Commentator]

You because you are so courageous.

[Pablo Torre]

And tell me what happened in that moment.

[Andrew Fishel]

I did an interview with one of the fencers in the clip a few weeks ago, and at the time there, I think were 15 Fox News stories about this.

[Fox News Commentator]

The reality is these men can't cut it with the other male athletes, so therefore they are coming into the female sports. You're telling me that who was disqualified was the person who dared to stand up for protecting biological women in sports. Why wasn't that other individual disqualified?

[Pablo Torre]

Part of what's darkly funny about this, of course, is that you have to convince. Typically, we have had to convince together. People, hey, pay attention to fencing. There's some real corruption going on yeah. Here, though, you find that the appetite seemingly has been insatiable.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah, it's true.

[Pablo Torre]

And all of this coverage is originating from this would be match from March 30th. And you can see the video of course, all around social media on X especially, but it takes place in at a tournament called the Cherry Blossom Open at the University of Maryland.

[Andrew Fishel]

So at the beginning of this match, right before the referee told them to start, the fencer on the right, Stephanie Turner got down on one knee and protested the inclusion of her trans opponent, Red Sullivan, in this event. The referee came up to her and told her that it would be a black card if she refused offense on the grounds of just refusing to fence an eligible opponent. She said that she knew that, but that she was a woman, her opponent was a man, and that she wasn't going to fence that person. So the referee left, presumably to confirm that penalty without committee. When he came back, he had, I suppose, confirmed that that was the correct penalty to issue and gave Turner a black card for refusing defense.

[Pablo Torre]

Meaning.

[Andrew Fishel]

Meaning exclusion from the tournament.

[Pablo Torre]

And look, as a sports fan, right, the idea of like an athlete protesting by taking a knee.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

This had been previously a thing when Colin Kaepernick was doing this in the NFL was a thing that carried a very different tone when it came to Fox News coverage, when it came to Trump's administration.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yes, that's true.

[Pablo Torre]

But here, Andrew, the U.S. government is looking at this kneeling episode and politicians are coming out of the woodwork to truly champion the bravery of the fencer who did it. Ted Cruz, for instance, has a four page letter, United States Senate letterhead dated April 7, 2025, that he sends to who?

[Andrew Fishel]

He sent that to the CEO of USA Fencing, Phil Andrews. He claimed that USA Fencing was in violation of President Trump's executive order keeping men out of women's Sports.

[Pablo Torre]

And then four days later, April 11, Linda McMahon, the US Secretary of Education, announces the formation of a Title 9 investigations team.

[Department of Justice / Education Official]

I think we're just making sure that everyone knows we're, we're very serious about this. This is a combination, as I said, of DOJ and Department of Education, because DOJ has the ability, you know, to file criminal charges, Department of Education does not. So we'll investigate, but we will hold people accountable, you know, on both ends. Where Department of Education might look at defunding mechanisms, but the Department of Justice can actually look at it from a criminal perspective.

[Pablo Torre]

And now, Andrew, I'm looking back at my laptop because Tomorrow in Washington D.C. i'm reading a webpage on oversight.house.gov that is titled Doge Subcommittee Chair Marjorie Taylor Greene Announces Hearing on USA Fencing Allowing Biological men to participate in women's events in which Stephanie Turner, the fencer on the right that we've been talking about, is going to speak, as well as the board chair of USA Fencing, Damian Layfeld, and he will be testifying at a hearing at 2pm Eastern. So when we step back for a second here and just look at the effort that the US Government is taking to investigate this story that we also have been investigating in our own parallel track, what is the big picture thought that goes through your mind?

[Andrew Fishel]

It would be nice if it actually appeared as if they wanted to learn something from this investigation.

[Pablo Torre]

So I just need you to know that Andrew Fishel, who last appeared on PTFO in July 2024, is a world class fencer and coach and referee and now whistleblower. As we mentioned, the guy is uniquely obsessed with defending the integrity of his sport. And this is to the point where nobody in the world will watch or post more video of fencing than him. He has these Instagram and YouTube accounts that serve as the sports de facto global library, basically. And so with USA Fencing back in the news on the heels of the NCAA following President Trump's recent executive order, executive order 14201, quote, keeping men out of women's sports, end quote. Andrew and I decided to reconnect. And first, this was because I personally was confused about what this highly controversial match that we were talking about even is. It was held at the University of Maryland, but the event wasn't actually an NCAA event because again, Trump and the NCAA had banned trans athletes like Red Sullivan from competing with women at collegiate contests. And so that part to me sounded weird. But even more urgently, Andrew seemed very eager to do what nobody in the media or especially the federal government seemed interested in doing, which is the first thing that my instinct would be as a reporter, which is to say you actually talked to the person.

[Andrew Fishel]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

At the center of this controversy.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

So just how hard was it to reach Red Sullivan?

[Andrew Fishel]

It took me like 10 minutes from when I heard this story to make the connection.

[Red Sullivan]

Hi, what's up? I'm Red. I founds at Wagner College where I'm a history and education dual major, I'm a sophomore and I like to ride my bike and garden.

[Pablo Torre]

So not exactly the investigative odyssey.

[Andrew Fishel]

No, not at all. I saw that this was happening or several people had messaged me that this was happening. I got sent a meme on Instagram and it Had, I think, a couple million views, thousands of comments. So I reached out through my network and was able to get her number extremely quickly. We've heard a lot in the news about this incident and what Stephanie. When we've heard Stephanie's side of the story. Can you talk us through what happened.

[Red Sullivan]

From your perspective when the whole thing happens, she kneels. I don't know what's going on because the referee comes up to her, talks to her, and then heads off and like, ask her, hey, like, what's up and all. A lot of what she has said where she says, you are a man, I am a woman, and this is a woman's event and I will not offend you, like, with respect to you. And my initial response was, bro, what and what are you doing?

[Pablo Torre]

The very basic question of, from a sports perspective, how good is Red Sullivan at fencing?

[Andrew Fishel]

There's a spectrum of ratings from A being the best to E being the worst, and then one unrated below that. And Red is a D rated fencer, which is fine. Like, it shows a basic level of technique and understanding, but it isn't anything extremely impressive. Sorry.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, how does Red feel about that scouting report of herself?

[Andrew Fishel]

I think she would probably find that fairly accurate.

[Red Sullivan]

I fenced almost an entire season in the NCAA on the women's team.

[Pablo Torre]

Where.

[Red Sullivan]

Nothing like this has happened. There's been no backlash to me fencing, and it has been a historically mediocre season and there have been no issues with it until there was the NCAA ban.

[Pablo Torre]

So to just clarify, Red Sullivan no longer fencing for Wagner. For Wagner, her college team, famously thanks to the federal government. And the opponent in question, the kneeler, the protester, Stephanie Turner. What's Stephanie's scouting report?

[Andrew Fishel]

She's also a D rated fencer. I had never heard of her before this. And in looking at her results, they're also fairly mediocre. Like, I, I would put the two of them at approximately the same level.

[Pablo Torre]

Which is to say that when it comes to the tournament that we are making this mountain out of, it was.

[Andrew Fishel]

A deeply unserious, unimportant tournament.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, now you sound like an A.

[Andrew Fishel]

I mean, you need a certain amount of points to qualify for summer national championships. And this is one of the last tournaments that allows you to do that. So if you are fencing at this tournament with the goal of accumulating those points, it means you either didn't do well at the others or just didn't want to go to them. And at that point, I think it's fair to say that it's just not that important.

[Pablo Torre]

So we have two. And I'm going to use this because I think it's actually a term to delist. Derated. Yeah, derated fencers. And Stephanie, also not a college fencer.

[Andrew Fishel]

I think she's 31.

[Pablo Torre]

What phase of the fencing trajectory is.

[Andrew Fishel]

That at this point, in order to qualify for tournaments that you need to go to to even qualify for the Olympics? So, like, qualifiers. For the qualifiers, you need to have at minimum, a C rating. And she does not have that. So it. I don't know her. I've never spoken to her. I've tried to reach out to her, but it seems from the outside, like, this is just a casual fencer doing these tournaments for fun.

[Pablo Torre]

And so this tournament, when I hear it, described by Fox News as an Olympic qualifier, uh, again, we have investigated Olympic fencing. You live in the elite levels. That's your world. This was not an Olympic event.

[Andrew Fishel]

No, definitely not. And anyone who says that doesn't know anything about athletics.

[Fox News Anchor]

So this was an Olympic qualifying event. My understanding of it is.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, part of what was funny about seeing some of these clips is that even Stephanie Turner at one point seemed to be put in a position of knowing that obviously, as the fencer in question.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

And having to listen to this, this.

[Fox News Anchor]

Was something that you had prepared all your life for. It wasn't an Olympic qualifying event. I'm sorry. I had heard that this morning.

[Andrew Fishel]

It wasn't.

[Fox News Anchor]

It was an important event, though. And this is something that you've been preparing for for an awfully long time.

[Pablo Torre]

The darting of the eyes as he's insisting, as the anchor is insisting, this is important. This is very, very, very important. Spoke volumes today.

[Andrew Fishel]

It may well have been important to her. That's. That's completely fair. But it's. This is not something that anyone would be reasonable in saying they prepared for their entire life.

[Pablo Torre]

But when it comes to why this may actually be important to Stephanie Turner, which I want to take seriously here, part of the reason the story has been shaped this way is because the person that all of these outlets keep on interviewing is Stephanie Turner.

[Fox News Commentator]

I find that the cause is pretty simple, as you say. I mean, I'm a woman competing in women's sports, and men have a male advantage over me in female sports.

[Pablo Torre]

And now we're at the point that every parent in America is immediately going to extrapolate a lot from that simple statement. Right. It's the eternal trans debate, which we've done many episodes of the show, about men have an advantage over women. And I'm not even here with you today to even argue otherwise. What I want to clarify simply is when it comes to Stephanie Turner's career and her fears about facing a male fencer on the level of physical safety, as one very popular argument goes, and then on the level of competitive disadvantage, which is the other one that we just heard articulated, how do you assess that part of her story?

[Andrew Fishel]

They both seem very silly to me. As a high level fencing coach, I can safely say that I have never, ever told one of my female fencers not to fence a male fencer because it was dangerous. We encourage little kids to fence with high level fencers all the time. And I would think that like literal children. Yes, I would think that like a small child, fencing against an adult would be more, quote, unquote, dangerous than that. But fencing is one of the safest sports that there is, and everyone has something to gain in practice, regardless of who the opponent is.

[Pablo Torre]

So, just to recap for people who don't know how fencing works, fencing is a sport where literally the first time.

[Andrew Fishel]

You touch the other person, everything stops.

[Pablo Torre]

Everything stops.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

But this is where I just gotta jump in here for a second in order to be maximally generous to Stephanie Turner and her philosophy. Maybe because even though fencing is a sport premised upon this electronic sensor system, we're where the slightest brush will trigger a point and force a reset. Maybe Stephanie Turner just disagrees personally with Andrew Fishel and his mixed coaching philosophy that he articulated. Maybe she believes that her weapon, and she competes in foil is this long and pointy and bendy object, and that is something to be far more fearful about than Andrew is. Maybe it's the case that Stephanie Turner therefore did not want to compete in any way against a class of people whose physical and also competitive advantage was that much greater than hers. And that is her right, I suppose, no matter how frivolous or inconsequential the tournament in question might be. But there is something else that we should also consider here, which is that maybe there might be another detail about the protesting fencer in question, Stephanie Turner, that Fox News and the Trump administration simply don't want you to realize.

[Andrew Fishel]

The week before this competition, she knowingly participated in a mixed competition, which means that men and women are both allowed to sign up. That tournament was extremely casual. There were no points on the line, not a qualifier for anything, just a fun tournament. But she fenced several men in that competition, and she actually did beat some of them. So as far as the skill level goes, men may have physical Advantages over women. How that translates into the sport is up for debate. I think at the top level there is a significant difference, but at that level, I don't know how much there is. And so much of fencing is about distance, tactics, timing, precision, that just pure strength is not such a gigantic advantage in the sport. It, it's, it's not meaningless, but it's not a gigantic advantage. And she did beat several male opponents the week before.

[Pablo Torre]

So this part, as I'm consulting the record books here. Right. So Stephanie Turner, the weekend before she did her protest, she kneeled against Red Sullivan, faced, it seems, five men in a mixed tournament voluntarily, with no issue. In Pool 2 of that tournament, she faced three male opponents, won 52 against a guy named Harrison Kovacs, won 52 against Luca Spector, lost 51 to Ian Flynn, who was a C rated offenser, who finished third in that tournament. And then in elimination rounds, she beat Ethan Lee 15 to 12 in the first round, beat Pow Chow Esteban 15 to 14, then lost 15 to 5 to Luis Largespada, who got second place, also derated. And that's how the tournament went. Which is to say that like the whole horror of fencing an alleged man, I mean, literally the week before she.

[Andrew Fishel]

Did all of that fence literal men. Yeah. Without an issue for safety and beating some of them. So obviously the skill factor wasn't an issue either.

[Pablo Torre]

It feels like when it comes to Stephanie Turner claiming that the disqualification happened because of this protest, because of these views that are from this place of integrity. Can you clarify the rules governing integrity here? What was the punishment and why did that punishment happen?

[Andrew Fishel]

So the punishment was a black card, which is disqualification, and a short probationary period afterwards for refusing to fence an eligible opponent. In fencing, we do not get to pick our opponents. And if we did, it would obviously.

[Pablo Torre]

Be ridiculous in terms of the mechanics of how a black card, a disqualification occurs. You're saying this would happen for any reason?

[Andrew Fishel]

If I refuse to fence you at a competition, then I would be black hearted for the same, like in exactly the same manner. I would receive the same probationary period. It's not about trans, black, white, Asian, religious, whatever. It's, I am supposed to fence an opponent who's eligible. And by refusing to do that, I am going to be disqualified.

[Pablo Torre]

And so when it comes to the letter, for instance, that Ted Cruz wrote to USA Fencing claiming, quote, this young woman, Stephanie Turner, was set to face a man who now claims to be a transgender woman in a fencing bout, this gets to this other key complaint that has been circulated widely that is familiar to anybody who has covered trans athletes, which is that here is a man who chose to transition to women's sports simply to greedily and cunningly gobble up all of these trophies. And I should cite a, a poll that we here at Pablo Tori finds out had commissioned actually back in March. It's a Rasmussen poll. And what we found was that a majority of Republicans think that biologically male athletes are becoming transgender specifically to win championships in women's Sports. This is 39% who say that's very likely. 18% say somewhat likely. But this is a pervasive belief.

[Andrew Fishel]

So I think that's pretty silly as well. There have been, to my knowledge, no examples of people in fencing who were bad and then transitioned and suddenly became good. And this is a process that, as I understand, takes a long time to complete. You need to have an appointment with a doctor to diagnose you with gender dysphoria syndrome. And then you need to be on hormones for at least a year demonstrating consistent tests of below a certain testosterone level. And it's not like if I declared myself a woman, I could just compete in a competition, a women's competition tomorrow. That's not what's happening.

[Pablo Torre]

What did you learn about Red Sullivan's own alleged overnight decision to compete as a woman?

[Andrew Fishel]

It took a while. She told me that in high school she was having thoughts of transitioning for a while and when she finally took it seriously enough to go see a doctor, it I think a year to get that appointment.

[Red Sullivan]

I had to get a consultation appointment to like get diagnosed with gender dysphoria in order to get hormones. In order to get that appointment, I had to go through my general practitioner and from there I had to book an appointment which the wait time on that was about a year. So after I got the consultation appointment, which took a year, I had to wait another six months in order to make follow up appointments in order to get my medicine and then learn how to do the injections.

[Andrew Fishel]

She was put on hormones for over a year before she was allowed to compete in the women's category.

[Red Sullivan]

And there's also the timer, where at that point then the timer starts where it's now you have to wait to be a year on hormones. So the entire time that I've been in the ncaa, I have been on hormones. So in a way with the men's events, I've had a physical disadvantage because these are men with male hormones. And also the longer you're on hormones, the more like you will your Muscles will atrophy.

[Andrew Fishel]

I also have a few other stories about this. A friend of mine coaches high school in New Jersey and she has coached trans athletes before. And there was a trans athlete on her team who was doing okay on the men's foil team, wanted to transition, was told, like, we don't have a spot for you on the women's team right now. So you would just be basically a benchwarmer. And that person chose to be a female benchwarmer rather than to continue to start as a male, because that's just who this person was. And that was very important to her.

[Pablo Torre]

What I think people miss in all of the narrative being spun is that the reason that these athletes that you go and actually interview, what they actually say and prove all of the time, is that they're doing this because this is who they are.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

It's not this scheme.

[Andrew Fishel]

Can I read a tweet that I. I was sent on this topic? That's pretty funny.

[Pablo Torre]

We are a tweet recitation. Safe space.

[Andrew Fishel]

Okay. Thank God. So I don't remember who said this because I just have a screenshot of the actual text, but it says, how many men who dream of being top tier professional athletes are willing to take female hormones, lose their muscle mass, lose their athletic edge, feminize their appearance, and live their lives as a woman in order to beat girls in a sport that pays less, has fewer sponsors, and has a much diminished public profile? How many boys are willing to do this to play softball, volleyball, etc? It's not happening.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, if anything, Andrew, what we've learned about what it's like to be a trans female athlete, and even if.

[Andrew Fishel]

You are successful, you're ostracized for that.

[Pablo Torre]

We clearly know that it rules.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, this is awesome. Who wouldn't want to sign up for the experience that Red Sullivan has clearly signed up for?

[Red Sullivan]

I mean, I, before this, have not posted anything online that I. I have private profiles on everything. And that's on purpose. I don't want that. I didn't want that smoke.

[Pablo Torre]

And I think a key part that also gets missed all the time in the coverage is that people presume that it is open season. Like there are no rules.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah, there are a lot of very specific rules, which is to say that.

[Pablo Torre]

Red Sullivan played by the rules.

[Andrew Fishel]

She did everything she was supposed to do.

[Pablo Torre]

So your perspective, as somebody who's been inside of USA Fencing, which has been governed by a policy, it's worth reminding everybody that here's the policy quote, according to USAfencing.org athletes being treated with testosterone suppression medication for the purposes of USA Fencing sanctioned competitions may continue to compete in men's events, but may only compete in women's events after completing one calendar year 12 months of testosterone suppression treatment. Proof of compliant hormone therapy must be provided prior to competition. But now, in terms of what the government is trying to do from this top down way, what is their new proposal for what the rules should be?

[Andrew Fishel]

It seems that their new subtle proposal for what the rules should be is you just can't do that anymore.

[Pablo Torre]

And if you just want a sense here of how much time our cash strapped federal government is is now devoting to banning trans fencers despite the fact that the only example they got is a D rated fencer at a meaningless tournament for casuals who got the same punishment anyone, anywhere would get if they withdrew from any match, even though also this same fencer had also defeated a series of actual biological men the literal weekend before. There is something that I think you should know here because last week, on account of all the energy generated by this single stupid story, House Republicans subpoenaed the board chair of USA Fencing and they did it in order to force him to testify in front of Congress during this giant hearing that is taking place tomorrow that we mentioned before. Previously, USA Fencing had been trying to avoid Marjorie Taylor Greene and this inquisition circus, which also naturally involved multiple letters from Doge. But now USA Fencing's entire legal status as an ngb, meaning a national governing body, which is the nonprofit in charge of organizing and promoting and running the whole Olympic pipeline for fencing in America, is at stake.

[Andrew Fishel]

They're dealing with kind of pressure from two different directions. 1. One is the government telling them that they have to change the policy or they'll lose their NGB status. But the other is, I don't think that they're allowed to be less inclusive than the parent organizations or they would lose the NGB status anyway. So it's like being caught between a rock and a hard place here. But essentially we have to do what our parent and grandparent organizations are doing in terms of inclusivity rules, right? And as of right now, the USOPC and the IOC both allow the inclusion of transgender athletes under the eligibility criteria that we've talked about already.

[Pablo Torre]

But you should also know that this entire equilibrium quite obviously feels like it's on the brink. Last month, the head of the usopc, the United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee, said about the trans policy question, quote, it is not our role to take on that position, end quote. Deferring instead to the international federations. Meanwhile, speaking of international competition, you may have heard that the next Summer Olympic Games are in Los Angeles in 2028. And apparently LA28's host contract requires the United States to guarantee access to, quote, all qualified athletes. That's the term, all qualified athletes, which might logically conflict with Executive Order 14201, because E.O. 14201 is actively trying to ban qualified trans athletes. And then there's the fact that Trump's attorney General and his education Secretary continue to threaten a criminal investigation, yes, a criminal investigation, over the alleged injustice suffered by one Stephanie Turner. And so what's the vibe, Andrew, around fencing, USA Fencing, specifically, when it comes to just criminal threats and legislation, and the top cabinet members for President Trump all taking personal interest in this?

[Andrew Fishel]

My personal feeling is that the Secretary of Education and a few others might have some use for a little bit more education on this issue.

[Pablo Torre]

So you're saying that the Doge hearing run by Marjorie Taylor Greene, you don't expect to get that level of elucidation?

[Andrew Fishel]

No, I don't. Based on what I've seen from her in the past in confirmation hearings and in meetings she's held, she doesn't seem to be interested in getting to the bottom of this. And I do think that there are legitimate questions and concerns on this topic, but I don't think that someone like Marjorie Taylor Greene is interested in finding out anything like that.

[Pablo Torre]

So I want to just elucidate myself a couple of thoughts as I now process all of the reporting that you've helped us do here, which is that, number one, there is a very familiar and established playbook for athletes who are not among the best in their sport, or in this case, anything close to it claiming to be victims, even though they may or may not have fenced male fencers the week before, to no issue, no concern about physical safety or competitive inequity. So there is that. Just the idea of, well, now I can be a spokesperson invited to Washington being platformed by the most important federal officials in our country. And there's a second thought because as we replay some of these videos, Andrew, I think you and I are noticing a similar thing here.

[Andrew Fishel]

A trend. Yes. In many of them, which is that.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, the voices you're hearing, if you're just listening to this, are addressing the trans athlete scandal. But the visuals.

[Andrew Fishel]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

What else are you seeing? Let's say, in the bottom right corner.

[Andrew Fishel]

Of those Fox News clips, I'm noticing the Dow is plummeting.

[Fox News Commentator]

Was a man who had previously competed on the men's team at Wagner just keeps going down.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

This is a CBS News Special Report. I'm John Dickerson in New York, York, where the closing bell on Wall street just rang. The markets closed down. The dow slid roughly 1600 points. The S&P 500 fell more than 4 1/2 percent.

[Fox News Anchor]

Wall Street's tariff tantrum accelerated into the end of an historically brutal week with China retaliating for President Trump's punitive tariffs and forcing investors to price in fast rising risks of a US recession.

[Andrew Fishel]

The S&P 500.

[Pablo Torre]

It is no coincidence, I think, to either of us. It seems that the trans athlete tends to be even more loudly proclaimed as a problem when there are other actual, real problems.

[Andrew Fishel]

Real problems, yeah, Very real problems.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, I cannot think of a more familiar option in a playbook than is there a trans female athlete out there somewhere that someone feels victimized by.

[Andrew Fishel]

That we can talk about really loudly for the next 20 minutes. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So we don't talk about tariffs or the rule of law or mass deportation.

[Andrew Fishel]

Even, or any of those other very unimportant topics or the general lack of.

[Pablo Torre]

Information security around our Defense Department or the fact that conservative justices are actively saying that the guy who appointed them is not obeying the basic tenets of the Constitution. But there is. There is. Stephanie Turner.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah. Very important.

[Pablo Torre]

And so at this point, I just feel obligated to point out, as I do in pretty much every episode about trans athletes that we have ever done, and we've done three of them before this one, incidentally, that I do still think there are real scientific debates and questions to be raised here. There are real discussions, for instance, about what the specific hormone policy should be. How do we construct a regimen of rules, how much irreversible competitive advantage is there for an athlete who went through male puberty as compared to an athlete who never did. These are all fair objections, fair questions, fair discussions. But what is so undeniable to me, the more I report on this story, is how unbelievably overblown and intentionally dishonest and politically convenient the coverage of this issue continues to be. And now that coverage has come to fencing. So what I wanted to do here also was ask our fencing expert, our resident whistleblower Andrew Fishel, to open our eyes to an actual cheating scandal, one that might truly warrant your attention here inside his poorly written spy novel of a sport. What the is up with this buzzer?

[Andrew Fishel]

Right. So in this is not a news story, it's something that Happened a long time ago. But in. In 19, in the pentathlon category of the Summer Olympic Games, a Soviet fencer named Boris Onishenko actually had engineered a device inside of his epee where when he pressed a button, it would activate his scoring mechanism. Which is to say that when he pressed a button, he essentially gave himself a point. So what he was doing was he was lunging near his opponent and then pressing the button to make it look like he got a point.

[Pablo Torre]

So, for those, again, unfamiliar in fencing, there's an electronic scoring system in which touches are, in fact, registered via some electronic sensor system with wires. That, of course, evolved over time. But it seems, Andrew, not so much, that the buzzer has entirely disappeared from the corruption of the competitive landscape.

[Andrew Fishel]

In the case of Boris Onishenko, this situation actually led to a new rule about where the wires are placed inside the guard. And over time, there have been other rules that have changed the way that equipment works to prevent tampering. And the most recent instance of that that I'm aware of is in 2020, body cord casings were made transparent because of a situation that was never officially resolved one way or the other. But there was a fencer who. Many fencers were complaining when they hit her, their point would not register. And when they tested afterwards, everything seemed fine.

[Pablo Torre]

Which is to say that fencing never lacks for creative problems.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah, I think I heard at one point that something like half of the rules about equipment were because someone found a way to cheat with them at some point.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. Which is to say that there is cheating. Like the episode we did together about the corruption of judges. Like, massive, again, arguably singular, in the already deeply corrupt landscape of Olympic sports like fencing, seems to have this issue, existential problem when it comes to competitive inequity. But this fencer. Can we put a name to this fencer? Who are we talking about? And can we walk through some of the video here?

[Andrew Fishel]

So this fencer's name is Lucia Lucarini. She was accused of having this happen in the years between 2015 and 2018 when she was doing well. And a common, like, retort to that is people who are doing well have opponents who object to them doing well. But there were videos being passed around of her with dozens of clips in them of her getting hit cleanly and the machine not registering a point.

[Pablo Torre]

How was she getting away with this? How did this scheme allegedly operate?

[Andrew Fishel]

There was a person who was working with her who had a machine that was operated by either pressing a button or a switch, and when the switch was active, it would prevent her machine from registering touches scored on her. And so, hypothetically, if I was helping you in this way, I would have the machine active while you were fencing, and as soon as you were scored on and it blocked it, I would just deactivate the machine. And when someone tested on you, it would just work normally.

[Pablo Torre]

And so her alleged accomplice here, the person who she was working with in this theory of corruption, was who.

[Andrew Fishel]

It was alleged that it was her father who was helping her do this.

[Pablo Torre]

But the reason we feel comfortable describing the allegation is because this is not originally levied by either of us here. This is something that it seems has been videotaped by, in this case, what kinds of people?

[Andrew Fishel]

She ended up winning the Italian Championships, I believe, in 2018. And when this happened, there was a match earlier in the day that a person refereeing her thought a lot of strange things were happening. So during the semifinal of that tournament, this referee actually sat behind the father and recorded over his shoulder what he was doing while watching his daughter fence.

[Pablo Torre]

So the videos that we're about to show you here, this is taken by an Italian referee of this Italian fencer's dad, whose hand is, I will just editorially comment here, is very awkwardly in his pocket.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yes. So essentially, in this clip, the fencer on the left hits the fencer on the right and you can kind of see the blade hitting target cleanly. But then if you look at the same point from the side, her dad is doing something in his pocket, which is a little bit awkward. There's no clapping or cheering.

[Pablo Torre]

Very graphic, the motion he's making.

[Andrew Fishel]

It's a bit odd, for sure.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, the rest of his body is sort of like spasming and his hand remains in his pocket also doing its own spasm.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I would be concerned, for reasons if I did not know about buzzer technology is what I am going to gently observe here.

[Andrew Fishel]

It's. It's very odd. And again, nothing was conclusively proven. But enough people thought this was weird that a referee who was in charge of one of her matches earlier did this. At the end of that competition, they actually confiscated all the equipment of all the top four fencers to examine it, but they did it after the medal ceremony, so about 10 minutes after. And during that period of time, that equipment was not watched over or attended.

[Pablo Torre]

Right, right. So in terms of the seriousness that the sport has undertaken their own investigation with, how'd you describe what's happened since that controversy?

[Andrew Fishel]

So when that happened, the Italian federation said that the Proof was inconclusive. They couldn't figure it out. But a self proclaimed expert wrote an email to International Fencing and had about 20 different people who were high ranking in the FIE at the time detailing a bunch of matches that this fencer was involved with and situations that this person felt were anomalies, as he called them. And he evaluated them on three criteria. One, that the anomalies occurred almost exclusively with this fencer on the strip. Two, they were pretty much almost all in benefit of this one particular fencer. And three, and I think this is the most compelling point of all, when this fencer was not present on the strip, all scoring apparatus worked pretty much normally for every other match of that day of that tournament. It's just when she was present, she seemed to have a lot of anomalies going in her favor. And when she wasn't present, everything seemed fine.

[Pablo Torre]

And so when it comes to just being fair to the Italian fans, question. Lucia Lucarini, I know that you offered her the opportunity to comment in any way on the record and what was her position on that?

[Andrew Fishel]

She did send me something, but she also said that she did not want me to make any sort of comment on it at all.

[Pablo Torre]

Understood. She didn't want to have to comment on this on the record.

[Andrew Fishel]

And I can understand that this was a stressful time for her, but I feel that it's very important to when something like this happens to make people aware of it. So that one, anyone who's considering doing something hypothetically similar in the future would think twice about it. And also just so that people are aware that this is going on because this person is still competing.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Andrew Fishel]

And as far as I'm aware, there haven't been any anomalies since then. But this did happen. It wasn't acknowledged at all. And this person is still active in the sport.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. So in other words, if anybody out there wants to, you know, have their dad put his hand in his right pocket and just hit a buzzer over and over again, as happened, by the way, in more examples than the one we just played.

[Andrew Fishel]

I have been sent dozens of examples of this in the past couple weeks.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, I would say, yeah, just maybe, maybe be aware that at least one sports adjacent podcast.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Has taken an interest in, in knowing why and how any of this is, is happening.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah, it's, it's always confusing to me that people are willing to even consider doing something like that when you like, I want to beat people because I'm better than them. I don't want to beat people because I'm like sneaking coins under the table in a board game or I'm manipulating the equipment or have some deal with a referee or something. I just want to prove that I'm better than other people. And I just. I just don't understand. I don't know. It's confusing to me.

[Pablo Torre]

You sound Andrew, like such a woke lib.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah, maybe.

[Pablo Torre]

So. At the end of every episode of Pablo Torre Finds Out, Andrew Fischl, as you're familiar, we talk about what we found out today. And what I'm finding out is not something that I necessarily expected to find out in fencing, but it's one that I certainly have been familiar with, which is the amount of attention that our actual government, let alone its propaganda news arms are paying, are actively paying to. That doesn't matter.

[Andrew Fishel]

It's so irrelevant.

[Pablo Torre]

Continues to make my jaw drop. Yeah, like for real, like. I'm not saying that there aren't, as you put it, like actual debates around the science and the regulations and competitive inequities.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yes, absolutely.

[Pablo Torre]

Men and women, like have done episodes about this. We reiterate that actual serious discussion being valuable and necessary, but when it comes to just the priorities our country has right now, it's just insane. Yeah, it is actively insane how much time we're spending on this topic generally, but also these sorts of athletes specifically, man.

[Andrew Fishel]

Yeah, even this specific topic of something that happened in a preliminary round of an irrelevant tournament that just was between two fencers who had almost no chance to win.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[Andrew Fishel]

The whole thing, like, it's just. It's very silly.

[Pablo Torre]

Meanwhile though, I do wish that when I am watching Fox News the next time that I myself could have a buzzer that I could press that prevented anybody on that side of the aisle who cares so deeply about this topic to not score any points for all of the hits they are making.

[Andrew Fishel]

I like to dream too.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production and I'll talk to you next time.

[Andrew Fishel]

Sam.