The Last Bromance: How Wrestling Corrupted the NBA Finals

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Last Bromance: How Wrestling Corrupted the NBA Finals"

Introduction

In the episode titled "The Last Bromance: How Wrestling Corrupted the NBA Finals," host Pablo Torre delves into an unconventional and provocative theory that professional wrestling infiltrated the 1998 NBA Finals. Joined by guest Neil Punsalon and wrestling legend Diamond Dallas Page (DDP), Torre explores the intersection of sports and entertainment, questioning the authenticity of pivotal moments in one of basketball’s most iconic series.

The Theory: Wrestling's Influence on the 1998 NBA Finals

Punsalon presents a bold claim: the 1998 NBA Finals were covertly manipulated by World Championship Wrestling (WCW) to promote professional wrestling, specifically leveraging the involvement of Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone. This theory suggests that key plays and interactions during the Finals were orchestrated to serve as subtle promos for a wrestling event, thereby blending genuine athletic competition with scripted entertainment.

Notable Quote:

• Neil Punsalon [02:14]: “This is a metaphor for a lot about our civilization, but in this case, it is concretely something that had collided, it turns out, with the NBA as recently as last year.”

Key Evidence Presented

Punsalon outlines several “exhibits”—specific moments from the Finals—that he interprets as evidence of wrestling influence:

1. Rodman Skipping Practice: Rodman’s alleged absence from key games to participate in WCW Nitro events, raising suspicions about his commitment to the Finals.

2. On-Court Interactions: Instances where Rodman and Malone engage in exaggerated physical interactions, such as slapping each other’s backsides, which Punsalon argues resemble wrestling theatrics more than legitimate sportsmanship.

3. Karl Malone’s Behavior: Malone’s actions on the court, including repetitive gestures and maneuvers, are portrayed as distractions meant to garner media attention for the upcoming wrestling event.

Notable Quotes:

• Neil Punsalon [04:54]: “They literally have footage of Dennis Rodman running from the media.”
• Neil Punsalon [17:07]: “He goes out to promote and ends up recording a promo with Hulk Hogan announcing that he's joining nwo.”

Expert Testimony and Analysis

Diamond Dallas Page provides insider insights into the workings of WCW and its rivalry with the World Wrestling Federation (WWF). He details how Vince McMahon strategically used wrestling personalities to gain media traction, explaining the concept of the "Monday Night War" between WCW's Nitro and WWF's Raw. DDP emphasizes Eric Bischoff’s role in orchestrating wrestling promotions and how WCW sought to dominate the professional wrestling landscape.

Notable Quote:

• Diamond Dallas Page [10:56]: “It is indeed a pleasure to be associated with WTBS. And we promise to bring you the greatest in professional wrestling entertainment in the world today.”

The Wrestling Event: Bash at the Beach 1998

The conversation shifts to the culminative event, WCW’s Bash at the Beach 1998, where professional wrestlers including Hulk Hogan and Dennis Rodman faced off against DDP and Karl Malone. Punsalon suggests that this event was directly tied to the NBA Finals, serving as a massive marketing stunt aimed at merging the audiences of both sports and wrestling.

Notable Quote:

• Neil Punsalon [24:57]: “So if you are trying to decide greatness, then you have to be detailed. You have to be willing to use an asterisk. I'm doing it right here.”

Critical Examination and Counterpoints

Pablo Torre challenges Punsalon’s assertions by highlighting the lack of concrete evidence and the inability to contact key figures like Rodman and Malone for comment. The dialogue shifts to a courtroom-style debate where former NBA champion Bill Winnington is brought in as an expert witness. Winnington offers a counter-narrative, asserting that while Rodman and Malone might engage in playful interactions, there is no substantial proof that these actions were part of a coordinated wrestling promotion.

Notable Quotes:

• Bill Winnington [39:56]: “There is no evidence here to me that either Rodman or Malone shortchanged the task at hand.”
• Bob Costas [50:04]: “Guys can be aware. Guys can give a nod. Guys can have a laugh without being lost in another land.”

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Torre summarizing the speculative nature of Punsalon’s claims. Despite the compelling narrative constructed through selective evidence, the lack of direct confirmation from the involved parties leaves the theory unverified. Torre underscores the importance of critically evaluating such claims, emphasizing that while the intersection of wrestling and the NBA is fascinating, definitive proof remains elusive.

Notable Quote:

• Pablo Torre [56:57]: “PD: Clearly there was not a desire to engage. I'm radioactive with you, Neil, as I have realized what I've done here, which is to say, what did you find out today?”
• Neil Punsalon [57:41]: “This is what we're doing here. If you are trying to decide greatness, then you have to be detailed... LeBron James is the greatest of all times.”

Final Thoughts

"The Last Bromance: How Wrestling Corrupted the NBA Finals" offers an intriguing blend of sports journalism and entertainment, inviting listeners to reconsider familiar narratives through a conspiratorial lens. While the episode successfully weaves a compelling story, it ultimately serves as a reminder of the importance of evidence-based conclusions in the realm of sports and media.

---

Produced by Walter Averoma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, and the Pablo Torre Finds Out team.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[Neil Punsalon]

We can do a double team triple.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Team, but the NWO is the new team of the future.

[Neil Punsalon]

Sweet.

[Pablo Torre]

Right after this ad.

[Neil Punsalon]

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[Pablo Torre]

We've had many strange people on this show. Yes, we've had an 86 year old grandpa recently. We had a NASA scientist, we had a former Federal prosecutor, a U.S. senator, Action Bronson. And well beyond. And for legal reasons, I can't even say so much how beyond we tend to go. This though might be a new raising of the bar for what we're about to unveil here for people.

[Neil Punsalon]

I'm really excited to make my case.

[Pablo Torre]

Thank you for doing this, Neil Punsalon. An honor to have you on the show.

[Neil Punsalon]

I'm super excited. I came in with the idea of if I could just get one of the people that listen to your show, one of your devoted fan base, if I could get just one person to believe me. And I'm now at the point I'm so excited there's an electricity coursing through my body. I now firmly believe by the end of this, the NBA is going to put a hit on me. I think they're coming after me.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, so to explain why it is that I'm not even going to push back on that right now, we got to explain that this is a story fundamentally about two things that you love. And one of those things I don't know a lot about as much as I'm surrounded by it all the time now. And, and that thing is pro wrestling. This is a metaphor for a lot about our civilization, but in this case, it Is concretely something that had collided, it turns out, with the NBA as recently as last year.

[Neil Punsalon]

Tyrese Halliburton for something.

[Bob Costas]

It's the brass knuckles, Wayne.

[Pablo Torre]

This Jalen Brunson, Tyrese Halliburton thing.

[Bob Costas]

Jalen Brunson.

[Neil Punsalon]

Is this game 8 not in the Garden. The WWE is smart enough to use people that love wrestling, and they've done it for years. And so you have this sports moment that helps elevate wwe, helps elevate the NBA as well. And it's a great piece of sports marketing.

[Pablo Torre]

There was a steel chair in that. Again, that was an example of the NBA being brought into the ring.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's right.

[Pablo Torre]

This story, though, is the inverse.

[Neil Punsalon]

100% the inverse. And that's why it's so much more powerful, because it is not necessarily athletes just showing up at a professional wrestling event. It is professional wrestling bleeding into NBA games.

[Pablo Torre]

So where in the history of the NBA Finals, which are happening now, by the way, in the present tense as we speak, are we.

[Neil Punsalon]

Here we go.

[Bob Costas]

The wait is over. The NBA Finals are here.

[Neil Punsalon]

The 98 finals, obviously. Chicago Bulls, Utah Jazz, Michael Jordan, Karl Malone, and most importantly, Bob Costas and Round Ball Rock.

[Pablo Torre]

In my childhood memory, 17 seconds from.

[Bob Costas]

Game seven or from championship number six.

[Pablo Torre]

It is Bob Costas saying, jordan open.

[Bob Costas]

Chicago with the lead.

[Pablo Torre]

And then we see it. We see the most famous shot in basketball history. The most famous NBA Finals, arguably ever. For certain, it's the second three peat for Jordan's Bulls.

[Neil Punsalon]

That is the way everyone remembers the 98 finals. But if you look at the 98 finals now through a different lens, there was an apocryphal story in 1998 of Rodman skipping practice. I remembered hearing something about it as a kid. And then when I watched the last dance, you see it come to life, and it's real.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

So Dennis Rodman ran off after Game 3. He took a detour from playing with.

[Neil Punsalon]

The Bulls to become a wrestler with Hulk Hogan.

[Pablo Torre]

They literally have footage of Dennis Rodman running from the media.

[Neil Punsalon]

You know, like I said, like you said, a playoff game. I went to go wrestle. If I did this, I go over here. If I do that, I got to go do this. You know, they gonna get the 100% when I'm on the court. This is again, just another fantastic storyline within this 98 finals. Rodman skipping practice, going to Auburn Hills, where he used to play with the Bistons.

[Bob Costas]

Dennis Rodman is here at the palace.

[Neil Punsalon]

Of Auburn Hills tonight for Nitro ends up hitting Diamond Dallas Page over the Head with a chair. Oh, my goodness, that was Rodman. And for me became something that, as I watched it, I went, wait a minute. Who's doing the documentary on Rodman skipping that practice and becoming a professional wrestler? That's what I wanted to know more about.

[Pablo Torre]

So I should say that our friend Jason Herr, director of the Last Dance, also has sat in the chair you're sitting at.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Dennis Rodman skipping practice was not the reason I wanted to do this with you, because, again, it already been done.

[Neil Punsalon]

Just for a moment, if I might have the floor by the time I finish this episode. At worst, what I'm going to present you, you will see this as the greatest sports marketing moment you've ever seen. At best, I believe I'm putting my thumb on the scale and forever affecting the goat debate. Who's the greatest basketball player of all time? You're never going to see it the same way ever again.

[Pablo Torre]

The unifying theory of modern American life now is that everything is pro wrestling. The presidency is wrestling.

[Neil Punsalon]

Oh, my God.

[Bob Costas]

The hostile takeover of Donald TRUMP ON.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Vince McMahon has happened at WrestleMania 23.

[Pablo Torre]

The U.S. department of Education is actually.

[Neil Punsalon]

Wrestling CEO of World Wrestling Entertainment, Linda McMahon. Thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

Even my beef with Bill Simmons, I am told, is wrestling.

[Neil Punsalon]

Pablo Torre is here. We're beefing.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Neil Punsalon]

Big beef.

[Pablo Torre]

What camera can I look into just to stress how angry I am?

[Neil Punsalon]

It's such a beef.

[Pablo Torre]

But with the Indiana Pacers now playing the Oklahoma City Thunder in the NBA Finals, what we wanted to do here was dive into what we believe to be the most underappreciated actual wrestling crossover in the history of sports. And to do it, I needed to give a little bit of work to Neil Puncelot, the only comedy writer in the world who has made television shows with both Norm MacDonald and. And also Marshawn Lynch. But the most crucial point on Neil's resume, even more than the fact that Neil happens to be half Filipino, is the fact that he has watched more pro wrestling than I ever have and ever will, particularly over the last 25 years. Because Neil's theory here about the 1998 NBA Finals turns out to not be fan fiction. This is going to be a story about sports business and billionaires and backroom deals and also chairs. Lots of chairs. So where our paths diverge as Filipino Americans who remember, like, dial up Internet, is that I went to grade school with lots of wrestling fans but never really became one myself. I'm actually shocked by the degree to which professional wrestling is relevant to my line of work now.

[Neil Punsalon]

Yes, Totally. Professional wrestling is like silent film. You could turn off the audio and kind of follow along and it plays everywhere. It plays at every age, it plays in every country. It is these men who are putting their lives and their well being on the line to act out this soap opera. It's just insanity. I love it. Let's get ready to suck it.

[Pablo Torre]

What is a suck it gesture if not Charlie Chaplin?

[Neil Punsalon]

Can I go in a little bit into the history of wrestling here?

[Pablo Torre]

I know so little about it, so.

[Neil Punsalon]

Please let me tell you a little bit about it. Pro wrestling used to be in regional factions. So there would be a Memphis team, there'd be a Georgia team, and all of the different little sort of families. We're spread out across the country.

[Pablo Torre]

Coming up Next on SuperStation WTBS, it's exciting.

[Neil Punsalon]

Championship Wrestling from Georgia. Vince McMahon buys the world Wrestling Federation from his father.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Indeed, it's the dawning of a new era and this magnificent building, but yet an ending of another era.

[Neil Punsalon]

And then decides, like Michael Corleone from the Godfather to roll up all of the factions and dominates the pro wrestling landscape for a decade plus. Thank you.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

It is indeed a pleasure to be associated with wtbs. And we promise to bring you the greatest in professional wrestling entertainment in the world today. We will have this week, as a matter of fact, exclusive footage on a matchup involving the Iron Sheik, who hails from Tehran, Iran. I'm from Tehran, Iran. 10,000. Then from there, a man who claims to have the most impressive physique in all of professional wrestling, Jesse the Body Ventura, the most beautiful body in professional wrestling. And I got something to talk about everywhere I've been going.

[Pablo Torre]

So in other words, he rolls up these teams and makes a league.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's exactly right. One of the companies Vince buys is Georgia Championship Wrestling. There's a proviso in their contract that says the matches have to be recorded in Ted Turner Studio. Vince McMahon does not want to have to do that. He does not. That overhead.

[Pablo Torre]

So Ted Turner, as in Turner Sports.

[Neil Punsalon]

Correct. By the way, billionaire.

[Pablo Torre]

When it comes to the basketball interweaving here, that's the boss of all of the stuff we know with inside the NBA.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's right. So Vince doesn't want to pay that money, so he ends up selling the time slot back to Ted Turner. Ted Turner then takes that time slot and fills it with WCW World Championship Wrestling. World Championship Wrestling has always been one of our most popular programs. The Braves have become a winning team. In baseball, CNN is the leader in world's news and information. And now WCW is about to dominate the globe in professional wrestling.

[Pablo Torre]

So the guy, the billionaire who owns cnn, owns Turner Sports, all that stuff, he starts his own rival league.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's right, 88. He starts that league in 95. They premiered a television show called here WCW Nitro. Get it 100% live and ringside.

[Bob Costas]

Two hours of WCW Monday Nitro.

[Neil Punsalon]

Huge moment in professional wrestling. Live television. That's a big gigantic part of this. 100% live. And it becomes a head to head feud with WWF's Monday Night Raw.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

But WWF is bigger, better power and better than ever.

[Neil Punsalon]

On usa, it's called the Monday Night War.

[Pablo Torre]

It's kind of like as if two Monday Night Footballs were competing.

[Neil Punsalon]

Perfect.

[Pablo Torre]

And so I'm envisioning, right, Vince McMahon as one commissioner, right? Who is his rival counterpart at WCW.

[Neil Punsalon]

A legend in the game. An absolute legend. Hall of Famer. His name is Eric Bischoff.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

My name is Eric Bischoff. I live in Cody, Wyoming. And in 1998, oh, that was a minute ago, I was president of World Championship Wrestling.

[Neil Punsalon]

He was a janitor at an animal hospital. He actually got a sales job at WCW to start and then ended up getting bumped up to be on camera because the announcer that WCW had got arrested. Welcome back to tbs.

[Bob Costas]

I'm Eric Bischoff and this is a WCW magazine.

[Pablo Torre]

We could spend and others have multi part docu series level time on any individual person in the story. We're just like glossing over and Vince McMahon's right, right.

[Neil Punsalon]

And again, the context here is that the WWF was the Corleone family. They dominated the space for a decade. Plus WCW using the live broadcast and adult themes and doing the suckets and like all that sort of pushing the envelope stuff. That's all Bischoff. Bischoff does that. WWF had stayed out of that water forever on purpose. Bischoff does it. WCW gets the ratings lead from WWF and holds it for 84, three straight weeks.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

We had to convince our existing television partners, which was TBS and TNT at the time. Nobody within that community that we were doing business with really looked at WCW as a competitor to wwe. They were so far ahead of us, we were an afterthought. And I needed to change that perception within Madison Avenue, the advertising world. Which is why I brought in Hulk Hogan.

[Bob Costas]

Hulk Hogan films mean mega profits at.

[Neil Punsalon]

The box office and on video.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

I brought in Hulk Hogan for media attention.

[Neil Punsalon]

And this summer Hulk Hogan stars in.

[Bob Costas]

The major theatrical release, Mr. Nanny.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

The agencies all of a sudden started looking at us differently because we had what they believed to be the biggest star in wrestling at the time.

[Neil Punsalon]

World Championship Wrestling presents Hulkamania 94 for the world tour. And in 96, Bischoff gets Hogan to turn heel.

[Pablo Torre]

Even I had to reckon with this. The new world order. The T shirts was up black and white.

[Neil Punsalon]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Like villains. And their big thing in a pay per view world.

[Neil Punsalon]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Was what?

[Neil Punsalon]

Hogan turns heel at a pay per view event called Bash at the Beach.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Battle lines have been drawn for the.

[Neil Punsalon]

War that will be heard around the world. WCW's bash at the beach. So WCW, 83 straight weeks, they've got control of professional wrestling. That forces the WWF to also go live and usher in their Attitude era. That's stone cold. That's the Rock. They go adult themed as well. First time in their company's history they start doing that. And with the power of Vince and wwe, the brand and all of the wrestlers, they come back against wcw. But Eric Bischoff has an ace up his sleeve.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

I got a text message from Hulk Hogan saying, hey, call me ASAP911. And he rarely ever, ever did that. So I, before I even got into the hotel, got on my cell phone and called Hulk and he said, hey, I just hung up with Dennis Rodman. And he really wants to get into wrestling, wants to get involved. WWF at the time had already pitched him. I think Shane McMahon had reached out to Dennis, but Dennis wanted to work with Hulk. He didn't want to just work in wrestling. He wanted to work in wrestling with Hulk. And since Hulk was at wcw, that's where I, I got tagged in.

[Pablo Torre]

So Dennis is here. And as I imagine it, this is a real top flight wrestling free agent, 100%.

[Neil Punsalon]

Rodman dates Madonna in 94. He wears the wedding dress in 96. He kicks the cameraman in 97.

[Pablo Torre]

So when does Dennis Rodman become serious about his other job?

[Neil Punsalon]

Beginning in 97, Rodman is out promoting Double Team, which is his movie with Jean Claude Van Damme.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, I remember that vividly.

[Neil Punsalon]

He goes out to promote and ends up recording a promo with Hulk Hogan announcing that he's joining nwo. We can do a double team, triple team. But the NWO is the new team of the future. Sweet.

[Pablo Torre]

So the two timelines here, pro wrestling on the one hand, the NBA and the Chicago Bulls on the other. They had just won their second straight title.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's exactly right.

[Pablo Torre]

And Dennis Rodman in the other parallel timeline of wrestling is. What's he doing?

[Neil Punsalon]

Rodman appears in the 97 bash of the beach and it is an unmitigated success. Huge success for the company.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

And here we go with the nwo.

[Neil Punsalon]

They immediately want to run it back a lot like the Bulls do. They want to run it back and have Rodman join them for the 98 bash.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, here we are, 98, but now WCW. What are they planning to do? Given that Dennis Rodman is trying to also sell this upcoming event?

[Neil Punsalon]

So strangely, Eric Bischoff turns to his wacky neighbor, Diamond Dallas Page.

[Pablo Torre]

So in ddp, for those uninitiated.

[Neil Punsalon]

Okay, okay. Do you know ddb?

[Pablo Torre]

I know. I know a couple of things about this man.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Including the fact that when it comes to silent film hand gestures, he's got the big one. An all timer.

[Neil Punsalon]

What a phenomenal move by Diamond Dallas Page.

[Bob Costas]

Power bomb set up by Paige.

[Neil Punsalon]

I don't believe it. The Diamond Cutter. A iconic hand gesture that he did with it. He sort of puts his hands.

[Pablo Torre]

He's two hands together, thumb and index fingers.

[Neil Punsalon]

Thumb and index fingers touching to create that diamond between his two hands. He points it at the camera and then goes, bang.

[Pablo Torre]

His blonde curls.

[Neil Punsalon]

Yes, those curls. Those long curls.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, look, covered in sweat.

[Neil Punsalon]

You're clearly psyched when I call Diamond Dallas page. Mr. Page, first off, thank you so much for doing this. It is an honor. Gigantic fan.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Oh, my pleasure, bro.

[Pablo Torre]

Which is to say, you proceed to do some real investigative journalism.

[Neil Punsalon]

I'm a shock that you've let the. The fox in the hen house and allowed me to waste so much of your time with this, but I'm so thrilled. Diamond Dallas Page tells me the best story about how he met Carl Malone.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

I'd seen Carl on the Tonight show, you know, heard him talk about, like, I'm not a WWF fan, I'm a WCW fan. I heard him say, those guys are my favorites. And I was like, oh, that was cool, him to say. Then I was doing a signing in Houston and they said, do you want to go see the Houston Rockets game? I was like, who they playing? He said, they're playing the Jazz. I was like, awesome. Yeah, I'm a Malone. I'm more of a fan of players as opposed to teams. So they. They were up like 25. So Carl's on the bench and it's me, one of my best friends. His name was Ross. And it's at a timeout and Carl's like, you know, looking up in the stands and then he just throws up the Diamond Cutter side and Ross loses his mind. He's like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. He's reaching for his camera. But by the time he gets the camera up, he's sitting down and the quarter's on. And he says, he says, oh, my God, you got to get him to do that again. And I said, bro, I don't know him. He goes, he knows you. So afterwards, Carl had said, we, you know, got to the next break. And I pointed, you know, we're only like 20 rows up, so we're not that far from. And I go, boom. And I put my arms like, hey, you know, and he's like, threw it up again. So we got a picture of that. But then one of the guys came up to us for the end of the game and said, hey, Carl, love you guys. Come backstage. So he got passes for me and my boys and then we went back there and at that point someone walks up and goes, hey, Carl's outside. So I walk outside, I'm like, hey, man. He gave me a big hug and we talked for about 10 minutes. And I said to him, if you ever want to do anything, you got my number, call me and let me know.

[Pablo Torre]

So what I'm learning from your Make a Wish interview, Neil, is that Karl Malone loves pro wrestling just like you.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's right. Diamond Dallas Pages said on the record, Karl Malone did not dream of becoming a basketball player. He dreamed of becoming a professional wrestler. He's from a small town, Louisiana, born on a farm, youngest of nine children. He watched all those small regional wrestling encampments that I talked about earlier. Mom would drive them four hours on I20 to the Sportatorium in Dallas to watch professional wrestling. Huge fan.

[Pablo Torre]

And I reiterate, another character worthy of another separate investigation.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's right.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, I don't even have time to get into Karl Malone's actual rap sheet.

[Neil Punsalon]

Right?

[Pablo Torre]

I don't.

[Neil Punsalon]

DDP and Karl Malone hang out at the 98 all star game. And then throughout the back half of the season, DDP is going to Karl Malone's house, which is. It's like DDP sort of compared it to like a giant Cabela's, you know, that like humongous outdoor store and the taxidermy everywhere.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

He shot and killed everything. He had the biggest elk, the biggest booze, he had a bear. It was 12ft tall.

[Neil Punsalon]

I mean, he said it was glorious and every like 8 year old boy's dream to have a house like that.

[Pablo Torre]

And so now we're in the Western Conference finals.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's right.

[Pablo Torre]

In 1998.

[Neil Punsalon]

Utah Jazz, Los Angeles Lakers. That's a huge moment.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Goes with Malone, Russell Foster, Hornacek, and.

[Neil Punsalon]

Stockton, Corey Fox, O' Neal, Jones and Fisher for the Lakers. Game 4. Utah looking for the sweep. And DDP is watching this Western Conference finals live and gets a huge idea.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

They were playing the last game against LA and they were about to sweep them 4, 0. And that's with Shaq, you know, a pretty big deal. And. But it's number three zero at the time. And I just start thinking to myself, I'm gonna call him and see what he thinks it is. So I called him up and I said, listen, I know you've always wanted to be in, you know, as a wrestler. You know, that was your goal as a kid. I said, you know, Rodman's coming in, so Hogan's gonna tag with him again. I said, what if it was Dennis Rodman and Hulk Hogan against Diamond Dallas Page and Karl Malone? He went, ooh. I said, you got any beef with Rodman? He said, honestly? He said, no. He said, you know, most people don't know this. Back in the day, when you came into the NBA, there was summer camp, and I don't care what contract you came in with, you roomed with another guy. And my roommate was Rockman. And he said, I thought he was, you know, very nice guy and very down to earth. He goes, I don't know who this guy is wearing the dresses now. He said, but that guy that I know, he's a good dude, and I would have. I would have no problem with it. He said, well, let me. Let me talk to Eric Bischoff about it. Let. Let me see where this goes.

[Pablo Torre]

So just to again, connect the parallel tracks here for a second. So Car Malone in the NBA is so comfortable up three zero over Shaq and the Lakers in the Western Conference finals that he is making a side deal for another job. That is going to be. I mean, the Bash of the beach is coming up in July. That's right. That's weeks after the NBA Finals.

[Neil Punsalon]

The Utah Jazz owner is. The sort of contract gets more and more real as the opportunity becomes concrete. The Utah Jazz owner basically turns to Carl and says, please don't get hurt. Don't get hurt.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Okay.

[Neil Punsalon]

All right. That is from a Wrestling podcast in 2020, which he joined by phone between alligator hunts.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Like alligator.

[Neil Punsalon]

Like chomp, chomp.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Like big teeth, long head, dinosaurs.

[Neil Punsalon]

You know, them things. Alligator.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, naturally.

[Neil Punsalon]

I've always said, if I ever had the opportunity to wrestle, I'm going to do it. My opportunity just happened to come to an NBA finals when we put the.

[Pablo Torre]

Deal together, and what do you get Paid. If you're Dennis Rodman or Karl Malone to moonlight as a pro wrestler, they share an agent.

[Neil Punsalon]

That agent told me that Dennis is making at least a million dollars. And Karl Malone's right there. That's a workable number for Eric Bischoff. He's got that in the budget. But that is a ton of money to put all into just talent.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Everybody buried the idea. Eric Bischoff spending way too much money. Spending money like a drug sailor, blowing all Ted Turner's money. And here's what I'm thinking. And this is why being in the middle of the NBA season was so important to me and why I was willing to take the 2 million doll that I did. First of all, I knew how much a full page ad in USA Today inside the sports page. I knew exactly how much that cost because I purchased them. It was so much that I figured if I could get enough media coverage, free media, if I could tap into the sports media, particularly morning drives and a little bit of coverage in print, I couldn't buy $2 million worth of press and get nearly what I got. That was my rationale. It was just a marketing decision that's.

[Pablo Torre]

Kind of like influencer math.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Totally.

[Pablo Torre]

Like Eric Bischoff running WCW is saying, Hey, I got 2 million bucks in Ted Turner to spend. I'm putting it all on my two stars.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's right.

[Pablo Torre]

And they're going to use their organic marketing.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's exactly right.

[Pablo Torre]

Their platforms that they have elsewhere to sell this thing.

[Neil Punsalon]

That platform just happened to be the 1998 NBA playoffs.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

I wanted as much drama, emotion and camera time isolated on Carl and Dennis as I could possibly get for free. When we were talking about, well, maybe, you know, if at this nitro we could get Carl and Dennis here, then maybe we could set up this confrontation in the parking lot.

[Neil Punsalon]

It's a white limousine and we have no idea exactly what this means usually with the new world order, especially with the white and the black.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

So we were talking about ideas like that that we could do on our show.

[Neil Punsalon]

Diamond Dallas Page is with him. How about this?

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Somehow the conversation turned into, yeah, what if we could figure out a way to do something like that during an NBA game? Because it's one thing to do a stunt or an angle for our own audience, but what if we can do one for that audience to make our story even more exciting? And it started out as just kind of a joke, and then it started getting a little more serious. I'm using their playoffs as a wrestling promotional stunt. It could be the End of my career, I can't ask for permission, so I'm going to have to bank on forgiveness. I can probably pull this off.

[Neil Punsalon]

Part of the calculus behind this decision is Bischoff going, if I can get these two guys to hate each other on camera and feed his match, become the promotion for his pay per view days after the NBA Finals is over, then it all makes sense. How do you do that? How do you get that into the NBA Finals? You need two willing accomplices. And what if I said to you, these willing accomplices happen to be two lifelong wrestling fans, Guys that grew up with each other, roomed with each other.

[Pablo Torre]

Who share the same agent.

[Neil Punsalon]

Share the same agent.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

It wasn't all Mackie and Valid in a sinister way behind the scenes trying to figure this out. It wasn't that. It was just like, hey, if by chance you guys have an opportunity to kind of get in each other's face and make sure the cameras are around when you do, that would be awesome. Not asking you to do it. That's not it. Don't put it down on paper, don't make a note to yourself, but just say it happens.

[Neil Punsalon]

This is all lined up for these two guys to bleed this into the 1998 NBA Finals.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Once we kind of said, hey, if you get away with it, it doesn't up the game. Boom.

[Pablo Torre]

Just a step back, though, for a second, because you're talking about the most famous finals of my lifetime, which I do vividly remember, of course, the 98 finals. You're telling me that they're turning it into actual pro wrestling in ways that I and the world never fully appreciated.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's exactly right. And the proof is in the pudding. Pablo, we're about to watch the 98 finals together. It's going to blow your mind.

[Bob Costas]

If you're anything like me, when you were a kid, you were a big dreamer. Maybe you dreamed of being an astronaut, maybe the President of the United States.

[Pablo Torre]

Maybe you wanted to be the shortstop for the Yankees.

[Bob Costas]

But now we're dreaming of something else, like owning our own businesses.

[Neil Punsalon]

But let's be honest, launching it. It's total chaos.

[Pablo Torre]

Websites, shipping, your cousin wanting to collab.

[Bob Costas]

It's a mess.

[Pablo Torre]

That's where Shopify comes in.

[Bob Costas]

They power 10% of all E commerce in the United States, from brands like Mattel to your aunt's candle shop.

[Neil Punsalon]

Can't design a site.

[Bob Costas]

Shopify's got ready to go templates. Need help writing copy or touching up pics?

[Pablo Torre]

AI tools want customers built in email.

[Bob Costas]

And social tools and if you get stuck 24. 7 support real award winning humans. Turn those dreams into and give them the best shot at success with Shopify.

[Pablo Torre]

Sign up for your $1 per month.

[Bob Costas]

Trial and start selling today at shopify.com batard go to shopify.com, shopify.com bata.

[Pablo Torre]

So now I kind of feel like there's. There's a trial happening of some kind. You're an attorney, you're bringing a case. And what I have learned from you already, what I found out is that the NBA Finals allegedly have been used as this marketing scheme for the 98 bash at the beach involving Dennis Rodman and Carl Malone who have been in cahoots with Eric Bischoff, head of WCW to effectively get some free promo in front of 72 million people.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's right. Watching this thing, we mentioned Rodman earlier skipping practice to go to BNWCW Nitro early on that is presented as an isolated event. Oh, what, What a wild card Dennis Rodman is. He skips practice during Games 3 and 4 of the NBA Finals to go be a professional wrestler for a night. That's just the beginning. That's where the whole thing starts. It goes so deep you won't believe it. The WCW World Championship Wrestling successfully co ops and infiltrates the 1998 NBA Finals. And Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone are both complicit.

[Pablo Torre]

So you are alleging even more explicitly that the integrity of the 98 finals was actually compromised.

[Neil Punsalon]

Both of these men are working. Truly. We're going to watch these clips and I believe by the end of it you will 100% agree with me. These men are both working. They're putting on a professional wrestling promo.

[Pablo Torre]

Which is to say they are working as NBA players while doing a work.

[Neil Punsalon]

Your honor, I have some exhibits.

[Pablo Torre]

So I think this is where we just got to speed run through my childhood a bit.

[Neil Punsalon]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

Because it's June 98. June 3rd, game one. I remember this.

[Neil Punsalon]

Game one.

[Pablo Torre]

Utah wins at home by three points.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's exactly right. Game two, Chicago wins by five.

[Bob Costas]

Chicago comes into Salt Lake City weary or not and gets out with a split.

[Neil Punsalon]

So they're heading back to Chicago with the split. It's series of tied one one.

[Bob Costas]

But game three, a total humiliation for the Utah Jazz.

[Pablo Torre]

The bulls win by 42. 42. Right. I'm looking at the stats. So the Jazz have an NBA finals record low 54 points which is humiliated.

[Neil Punsalon]

The next day after that blowout. Rodman basically goes, well, I'm feeling pretty good. I'm going to Head out of here and go up to Auburn Hills to be in WCW Nitro.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

I just love the way you threw Malone around like a diss track.

[Pablo Torre]

So this is him skipping the practice, as depicted briefly in the Last Dance.

[Neil Punsalon]

The entire media focuses on how Rodman could possibly leave and skip NBA practice. Phil Jackson is telling the media that Rodman is gone when he comes back.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

After one of his episodes.

[Neil Punsalon]

No, he's only taking your focus away from the Finals, not ours.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, he had been fined a combined $20,000 by the NBA and the Bulls.

[Neil Punsalon]

And Rodman comes back in game four the next day and probably has his best game of the final. What the hell? You know, it's all about putting your.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Putting your balls on the line and.

[Neil Punsalon]

Shoot the basketball, you know, So I did it. I think it's just too. Because I. The things that been happening to me the last couple of days.

[Pablo Torre]

Dennis Rodman is, I mean, based on his performance in Game four, is actually to his credit, saying, look, I'm basically performing at 100%.

[Neil Punsalon]

They don't get the 100% when I'm on the court. Rodman is. Is in effect doing those two jobs at once. And I think the context here is important to remember. The Bulls are now up 3:1. I believe the Bulls think they're going to win the title in some of their minds.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

I'm pretty sure that, you know, they think they should be swept by now, you know, four games to zero.

[Neil Punsalon]

And I also think that Utah believes they're not going to win the title. I think my concern is people don't start making plans for summer already, which would allow both Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone to go, why don't we start working on this professional wrestling thing that we both love?

[Pablo Torre]

So now the two timelines have converged.

[Neil Punsalon]

Exactly.

[Pablo Torre]

They've crashed into each other at the 98 finals. And I do recall in my mind's eye, as I'm 12 years old, that it is Bob Costas taking us to Game five.

[Bob Costas]

And if it all ends tonight, he will leave with that rarest of athletic distinctions. He will leave without ever having relinquished his position as the greatest player in the game.

[Neil Punsalon]

Now I've asserted that WCW Goosebumps, by the way, co opted and infiltrated the NBA Finals. This is the proof. Your Honor, may I present to you exhibit A.

[Bob Costas]

They swing it over to Harper. He misses off the baseline, and Morris takes the reback.

[Neil Punsalon]

Malone and Rodman get tangled up.

[Bob Costas]

As Rodman and Malone were entangled, Malone.

[Neil Punsalon]

Sort of gooses Dennis. Rodman picks him up by his shorts, throws him out of bounds. Rodman tries to get past him, and Malone brazenly trips him here.

[Pablo Torre]

But, Neil, we both know 90s basketball was different. They were built different. It's physical. We've seen stuff like that before.

[Neil Punsalon]

You're right. However, may I present to you exhibit B. Sixty seconds later, the breakout from Karl Malone. He dunks it here on Rodman, and watch this.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Bang.

[Neil Punsalon]

You'll see it here on the replay. I don't know if that's a technical foul. However, the referees right now are trying to say, hey, we got Malone and Rodman right there.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

We're not going to let it get out of hand.

[Neil Punsalon]

And that's the point. Karl Malone knows the camera is on me after I score, and he gets the broadcast talking about this feud between these two guys. That's the whole point.

[Pablo Torre]

They're up to something.

[Neil Punsalon]

It's exactly what Bischoff wanted.

[Pablo Torre]

It is funny that the Jazz do win that game. Yes, right. They win game five, so they're down three to two, which means the series isn't over.

[Neil Punsalon]

And you'd think because of that, you think that those two guys might go, well, maybe we should turn down the pro wrestling promo work. But it's exactly the opposite. They turn it up during game six.

[Pablo Torre]

I have a feeling there's another clip.

[Neil Punsalon]

Your honor, exhibit C. You watch Malone and Rodman battling under the board. This is like a virtual recreation of the game five clip you just saw. Ron Harper again misses the shot on the baseline. Malone and Rodman battle for the rebound, and this time it's Rodman who trips Malone. I think they're starting to understand the formula, that when we get tied up, the cameras will be on us. And if we were to seed this rivalry to promote this match, it would be in one of these tieups, one of these moments that can be camera time for the two of us to mix it up.

[Pablo Torre]

It does seem that tripping is in their move set.

[Neil Punsalon]

And that's the foundation. It's about to pick up steam. And it does so with exhibit D. Ass slaps.

[Bob Costas]

Watch the by play here between Malone and Rodman. A sign of respect, actually, it appeared to me.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, well, Bob Costas, voice of journalistic color commentary, seems to be unconvinced. This is sportsmanship to Mr. Costas.

[Neil Punsalon]

Bob Costas is falling for it. He's falling for it in that moment. And it's the reason why I had to bring in an expert witness I'd like to call to the stand.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait, who are you now bringing into.

[Neil Punsalon]

Our Courtroom, former Chicago bowl three time NBA champion Bill Winnington. Let me be the first to congratulate you on the 1998 NBA Championship. Congratulations on winning that. Well, thank you very much. It was a lot of fun. And, you know, since I left the Bulls, they haven't won another championship. I took him this theory. I showed him these clips. I needed to get his take on this. As an eyewitness. I have a couple pointed questions. Let's show those butt slapping clips a sign of respect.

[Bob Costas]

Actually, it appeared to me.

[Neil Punsalon]

Now, do you think that is. Do you think they're showing a sign of respect? Do you think they're screwing with each other? Is Bob Costas getting played? I think Bob Kotas is just trying to be proper. But also, you're both smart enough to understand that they're not going to get thrown out of the game or technically they're not going to have a fight, an allout brawl.

[Pablo Torre]

So for those not watching on YouTube, which you really should be at this point, Bill Winnington has an incredible handlebar mustache. He looks like a pro wrestler. But to me, right, like, it's hard to discern Rodman being a wrestler from Rodman just being Rodman.

[Neil Punsalon]

And I turned the screws on Bill for that reason. Do you believe that is professional wrestling bleeding into the 1998 NBA Finals Game 6? I want to say yes, but I want to say no. I think he's playing along the fact that, you know what, hey, I'm not going to let you out. Show me. I mean, they're both smart businessmen and it's just playing into it a little bit more. But you got to play into it and not lose focus. For them, it's marketing and it helped them out for, you know, for lack of a better word, a big payday in July. So it was free advertising. He is admitting he knows this is marketing for their professional wrestling match. This is a guy who plays for the Bulls is at this game telling me he wants to say yes. The only reason he also wants to say no is because I'm radioactive. This idea is going to tear apart NBA fandom.

[Pablo Torre]

But, but, but the idea that this is dispositively wrestling, right? I mean, again, we're watching basketball and imputing motive.

[Neil Punsalon]

Sir, may I present to you exhibit E. Now you watch here. Malone gets the ball in the post. Wheels and scores. Seems like a normal basketball play until. What is that? What is that? What is that? Pablo?

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, I admittedly did not remember that. He's throwing up the diamond cutter.

[Neil Punsalon]

The diamond cutter in the Finals during the game. And this is game six. The Jazz don't have control of this game yet.

[Pablo Torre]

For those not watching, you got to. But that also feels like it could just be him, you know, I don't know, making like an O or something with his hand.

[Neil Punsalon]

Perhaps. It's just a one time thing. Exhibit F. Play it. 19 points Malone. This is the very next play.

[Bob Costas]

Tries to answer and can and he has 20.

[Neil Punsalon]

There it is again. Pablo, it's the very next play. They feed Malone in the post again. He wheels, hits the shot and throws it again. Because he's thinking, if you didn't catch it the first time, I need to do it again. It's a concerted effort to make sure that wrestling is in the NBA finals.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, so game recognized game. Neil, I, I did not know you'd have A, B, C, D, E, F. Yeah, six exhibits escalating to a level of proof that I, I, I, I, I. I must say this has been persuasive so far, Pablo.

[Neil Punsalon]

I've not even gotten to the biggest one or my star witness.

[Pablo Torre]

How many more exhibits are there? This episode is brought to you by Chevy Silverado.

[Neil Punsalon]

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[Bob Costas]

The blacktop and head off road, do.

[Pablo Torre]

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[Neil Punsalon]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Neil Punsalon]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Neil Punsalon]

You'll just be getting started.

[Pablo Torre]

Visit chevy.com to learn more.

[Neil Punsalon]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want is a great feeling. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save money with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Pablo Torre]

So, Neil, where are we?

[Neil Punsalon]

This is the big one again, just to set the table. Game six, 98 finals and again, 1998. There's like 15 things on television. 30 plus million people all watching. Yes. Game six. This is the, this is, you know, considered one of the great moments in Michael Jordan's career. This is the big moment. This is the moment that I remember as a kid. I'll never see it the same way. Exhibit G. The entanglement. You remember this place. Here they are. They're getting tied up. Yes.

[Bob Costas]

Battling like Crazy, but can't quite hold on to it.

[Neil Punsalon]

When people talk about NBA Finals moments where players get heated, they reference this moment.

[Pablo Torre]

Seeing this with your previous six exhibits does make this hit different.

[Neil Punsalon]

Wait until you see the replay.

[Bob Costas]

Pablo, regrettably, are scheduled to wrestle in one of those bogus events next month. Why Malone wants to lower himself to that is anyone's guess. And Rodman apparently wants to start the wrestling now.

[Neil Punsalon]

When I was a kid and I watched that play, I was like, oh, my God, these guys hate each other. Which is exactly what Bischoff wanted. So I'd buy the pay per view.

[Pablo Torre]

And I can also just tell how disappointed the voice of gravitas Bob Costas is as he sits courtside, which is.

[Neil Punsalon]

Why I had to make another call.

[Bob Costas]

So is. Is Pablo in on this, or is just the two of us?

[Neil Punsalon]

Just the two of us for now. And then these. This is me and Bob Costas in 2025. What do you remember about that moment? How do you see that moment now? Has it changed at all?

[Bob Costas]

Well, there's a backstory there. It used to be the shock grew out of the art. The shock grew out of Marvin Gaye and sexual healing, but that was art. The shock grew out of Elvis. The shot grew out of George Carlin and Richard Pryor, but they were brilliant and they were doing social commentary.

[Neil Punsalon]

But don't take my word for it. Ask the President. I meant the president. We in trouble.

[Bob Costas]

Now. We were living in a schlock celebrity culture where the shock was the only thing. There was no content of value there. And that's what I saw as Dennis Rodman's celebrity. A kind of dopey Jerry Springer world, Kardashian world celebrity. And I said that many times, parenthetically, even during games. But I always gave him full credit. His tired freak show continues, but on the court, he brings unique talents, not only as a unique, unique player, but I had heard even then that he was a gentle soul, that he was generous, that he was kind to those he came across. And subsequently, Dennis and I have had conversations, and I'm sure that if we had an opportunity to sit down and have dinner together, we'd find a lot of common ground. I don't dislike Dennis. I dislike that part of the culture, which now is so far down the road there's no getting back. But I disliked that aspect. And I also disliked the fact that wrestling, even then. And this was before my Interview with Vince McMahon on HBO.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

You want to let me finish here for a second, pal? Shut your mouth and let Me? Answer the question. All right, I'll be happy to answer.

[Bob Costas]

But even then, I could see that it had moved away from the kind of good natured wrestling that I liked as a kid and toward that sort of attitude era, that sort of crass. It's no longer tongue in cheek, it's no longer good natured. So I'm thinking, why in the world would Karl Malone. Not that Karl Malone is necessarily a paragon of virtue, but why would he want to get involved in that? So this wrestling match was pending between Rodman and Malone. And it's with that backdrop that I just laid out for you that they become entangled. And it looked to me like that entanglement wasn't just a natural outcome of what can happen in a basketball game. They were trying to prolong it and kind of emphasize it because it drew attention to what was upcoming from which they both would profit. Now, in retrospect, I said, they gotta call a flagrant here. They gotta call a flagrant here. They've got to call a flagrant. They have to call a flag right here. So probably I overstated my objection in that narrow instance, but my overall objection, I stand by. 27 years later, I stand by.

[Neil Punsalon]

After the entanglement, the game broadcast. NBC cuts away. But the Last Dance had extra footage. Malone and Rodman start slapping each other's asses again.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

I tell you what, I love what.

[Neil Punsalon]

I'm seeing, the battle between these two guys. But watch Rodman here. Watch Rodman's reaction.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, this is a different.

[Neil Punsalon]

Look at him.

[Pablo Torre]

Ooh.

[Neil Punsalon]

He'S acting. He's pouring it on.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay, so now I know that there are so many more ass laughs than I had anticipated.

[Neil Punsalon]

These men are guilty.

[Pablo Torre]

Pablo, he's popping his hip. He has his elbow at a triangle. He is a cartoon character.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's right.

[Pablo Torre]

Gesturing unsubtly about his ass having been slapped by Karl Malone.

[Neil Punsalon]

These two men are guilty. They're guilty of promoting professional wrestling in one of the most iconic NBA Finals ever. And Bob Costas isn't buying it anymore.

[Bob Costas]

Well, that clip captures what I was just about to say. I knew after they untangled from each other, I knew that there was no real animosity because they patted each other on the butt. You could tell it was all fake. But here's the thing. Why does that low grade fakery find a place in something that is the highest grade of legitimate sports drama?

[Pablo Torre]

But just to put the finest possible point on this, Neil, what you are alleging here is that Karl Malone was not giving 100% effort to win a game in the NBA Finals.

[Neil Punsalon]

I think the proof is in the pudding. But I also took this to Bob Costas. I just believe wholeheartedly that Karl malone is not 100% dedicated to that basketball game. He is working a professional wrestling angle.

[Bob Costas]

My point is guys can be aware. Guys can give a nod. Guys can have a laugh without being lost in another land. I just. There's no evidence here to me that either Rodman or Malone shortchanged the task at hand. But there is evidence that they were definitely trying to promote this, whatever you want to call it, in my view, trashy endeavor.

[Neil Punsalon]

Does that take away from Game 6 at all to you? Does it take away from that moment at all to you?

[Bob Costas]

Well, that moment, I think was discordant. But the overall thing is so great. You know, it's like saying, does a hair out of place mean that Cindy Crawford isn't beautiful? I don't think so.

[Pablo Torre]

So, no, as someone old enough to remember what Cindy Crawford thinks, I find Mr. Costas argument also kind of persuasive.

[Neil Punsalon]

Neil, let's go with that for just a moment. You believe Karl Malone is locked in. That's what you're saying. You believe that he's locked. He's not promoting wrestling. He's completely locked in in this game.

[Bob Costas]

Jordan with 43.

[Neil Punsalon]

Karl Malone looks super locked in in this moment. Pablo, they ran that play a couple.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Times prior, and Dennis and Malone had been fighting all game.

[Neil Punsalon]

And Carl just totally forgot that I was on the weak side.

[Bob Costas]

Malone is doubled. They swat at it and steal it.

[Neil Punsalon]

He's asleep at the wheel. Box blow. Karl Malone's asleep at the wheel.

[Pablo Torre]

You are. You are saying that this play again, famous in the last dance and in life. Michael Jordan slapping the ball away in the play before he hits the game winner over Brian Russell.

[Neil Punsalon]

Jordan, open.

[Bob Costas]

Chicago with the lead.

[Pablo Torre]

You're really connecting 100%.

[Neil Punsalon]

I guess they're going to Malone. Is he. Is he asleep at the wheel? Although he's been having a little bit of a struggle this morning. Looks that way to me.

[Pablo Torre]

So your closing argument is Michael Jordan's closing shot.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's. That's not the case. My closing argument is exhibit H. You remember Jordan holding up the six fingers, but do you remember this? This Rodman is promoting. They are working this.

[Pablo Torre]

He's doing the job. D, Generation X. Suck it.

[Neil Punsalon]

It's funny how as you're. As a fan, you remember Jordan doing this, and you don't remember that, but the second you see it, you go, of course, all these pieces Fit the puzzle pieces fit.

[Pablo Torre]

I need to. I need to. I need to take a break. Can we go to break?

[Neil Punsalon]

And by the way, the prosecution rests. I think you're on mute. Workday starting to sound the same. I think you're on mute. Find something that sounds better for your career on LinkedIn. With LinkedIn job collections you can browse curated collections by relevant industries and benefits like Flexpto or hybrid workplaces so you can find the right job for you. Get [e-mail] SL jobs finding where you fit. LinkedIn knows how.

[Pablo Torre]

I followed you through the NBA finals which you have changed.

[Neil Punsalon]

Thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean truly have changed my understanding of.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

Thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

But the thing that they were promoting just to. To close the loop here. Right. How was the 98 bash at the beach?

[Neil Punsalon]

Not good. Not great.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

The battle began on the court. A battle that was never settled. Now the time has come.

[Neil Punsalon]

We started in Utah, finishing in San Diego.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

The war is on.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, baby.

[Neil Punsalon]

Rosal is going to take you out NWO style, baby.

[Diamond Dallas Page]

It's Hogan and Rodman versus DDP and.

[Neil Punsalon]

Malone at WCW NWO Bash at the Beach. Listen, most professional went through all of that trouble.

[Pablo Torre]

Neil.

[Neil Punsalon]

Most professional wrestling matches with non professional wrestlers. There's a ceiling there. They. It can't be super great. Rodman spat on ddp. Wow. That was a class act. One you would expect. That was like a moment. And Malone is legitimately picking dudes up and slamming them on the ground. He's a. He's a beast.

[Pablo Torre]

He's a monster. He's very strong.

[Neil Punsalon]

So it was what it was. It rated very well. I believe it was the second highest rated WCW pay per view in it's the company's history.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean Cal alone just like hulking out. By the way wearing. I think those are jeans or maybe just like je. I can't tell if those are jean pattern spandex tights or actual jeans. But he's shirtless. He at least looks the part.

[Neil Punsalon]

As the story goes, Rodman didn't want to take his shirt off because Carl Malone looked like a Greek God.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, this sizzled out of granite. Makes sense as well actually now that I review this footage in retrospect. But yeah, I guess it was worth it.

[Neil Punsalon]

Malone thinking they had won the match has been denied here and now he's mad. And then Dennis Romney goes off to film the movie Simon says with Dane Cook.

[Pablo Torre]

So just, just journalistically speaking, I should say the following. We hear Palator finds out did try to contact Dennis Rodman. Did try to contact Karl Malone, the Bulls and the Jazz could not find either of them. Rodman has a booking agency, has an apparel line. They didn't respond. Carl Malone has these car dealerships in Arkansas and Utah. Nothing from them. Their shared former agent that you spoke to, whom we brought to you earlier, nothing. And we also reached out to Hulk Hogan through his agent and attorney. And everybody is just in the wind, as they say.

[Neil Punsalon]

That's right.

[Pablo Torre]

Clearly there was not a desire to engage. I'm radioactive with you, Neil, as I have realized what I've done here, which is to say, what did you find out today?

[Neil Punsalon]

What I found out is that to me, undoubtedly, without question, those two men are working a professional wrestling angle during the 1998 NBA Finals. And I want to say, to be clear, I am not telling anyone to strike it from the record books. I do believe it needs to be asterisk. I am a big believer.

[Pablo Torre]

You're calling for an asterisk?

[Neil Punsalon]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

You're calling for an ass play? Yes.

[Neil Punsalon]

If we're trying to decide something. I mentioned the greatest of all time.

[Pablo Torre]

You're trying to asterisk debate Michael Jordan.

[Neil Punsalon]

This is what we're doing here. If you are trying to decide greatness, then you have to be detailed. You have to be willing to use an asterisk. I'm doing it right here. If the main tenet to the idea that Michael Jordan is the greatest player ever rests on the numbers of him having six championships, you go at that number. I am not the biggest Laker fan. I am the best Laker fan.

[Pablo Torre]

Lord.

[Neil Punsalon]

And if my job is to put LeBron James, who is a Laker, as the greatest of all time, I'm going at title number six by saying that title has been delegitimized.

[Pablo Torre]

I cannot stress enough how you have impugned your own objective credibility. Just as I was ready to co sign the case you have brought before this court, I am inclined to think that actually you've been disbarred. But I also feel like there should be some higher authority than me that gets to proclaim that officially.

[Neil Punsalon]

I did take this theory to Bob Costas. If the center of that argument is that Michael Jordan won six titles, then I need to go at that number. And what I'm saying is that Michael Jordan's sixth title is been delegitimized by the fact that Karl Malone is professional wrestling and not playing NBA basketball. He's not concentrating on the finals. Delegitimize that six title. Jordan's at five, LeBron's at four. If he gets one more. He's tied. He's got the scoring title. LeBron James is the greatest player of all times. Your thoughts? I think that's one of the most.

[Bob Costas]

Inane arguments I've ever heard.

[Pablo Torre]

Neil, thank you for your work on this episode.

[Neil Punsalon]

It's been a pleasure.

[Pablo Torre]

May God have mercy on your soul. Pablo Torre Finds out is produced by Walter Averoma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, neely Loman, Rob McRae, Rachel Miller, Howard Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, Chris Tuminello and Juliet Warren. RStudio Engineering by RG Systems. Our sound design by NGW Post. Our theme song, as always, is by John Bravo. We will talk to you next time.