The New New Tastemakers: An Edible Oscars Preview, with Wesley Morris

Summary

Pablo Torre Finds Out — "The New New Tastemakers: An Edible Oscars Preview"

Host: Pablo Torre
Guest: Wesley Morris (Pulitzer Prize-winning critic, New York Times)
Date: March 7, 2024

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Episode Overview

This episode takes listeners on a witty, insightful journey into the worlds of film criticism and contemporary movie culture, anchored by the forthcoming Oscars. Pablo Torre and guest Wesley Morris dissect what it means to be a critic in the age of algorithms, the shifting nature of “taste,” the role of professional critique versus crowdsourced ratings, and what’s changed (and what’s been lost) in the state of movie stardom and filmmaking. They blend deep industry knowledge with playful debates (including hot takes on Russell Wilson’s "edibility") for a smart, hilarious conversation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Edible" Question: Criticism, Attraction, & Edibility

• Starts ~00:13
• The episode opens with Wesley riffing on the concept of “edibility” in attractiveness — not just "hotness," but something creamy, pudding-like, “edible” in certain celebrity personalities.
  • Memorable quote:
    Wesley Morris [01:15]: “There’s a kind of person… where, like, they look like they’re made of pudding. Part of the beauty is they also seem edible somehow.”
• Pablo and Wesley's banter about Russell Wilson (“the most handsome man in the NFL”), Andy Reid, and how “coolness” isn’t the point in attraction.
  • Pablo Torre [01:40]: “Russell Wilson… he’s not cool, though.”
  • Wesley Morris: “I don’t care… What do my desires have to do with cool?”

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2. Defining Modern Criticism: What Is a Critic Today?

• Starts ~03:23–07:48
• Pablo and Wesley contrast the traditional role of critics (Siskel and Ebert, Consumer Reports) with today’s landscape, where everyone is a critic and metrics like Rotten Tomatoes rule.
  • Importance of working through feelings, not just offering a customer-service take:
    Wesley Morris [06:45]: “For a long time I resisted that idea… This is not Consumer Reports… I really just want to work through my feelings.”
• The critic provides perspective—a “record” of taste—rather than mere aggregation.

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3. Taste: Developing, Owning, and Explaining It

• Starts ~10:22
• Pablo asks how critics develop their taste. Wesley recounts being drawn to “bad taste”: trashy, rude, or weird pop culture, standup comedy, John Waters movies.
  • “I realized very early in my life that I… had bad taste.” [Wesley, 10:46]
  • Influences: 80s/90s female comedians (Adele Givens, Elaine Boosler, Judy Tenuta) and “bad-boy” comics (but never Andrew Dice Clay).
  • Explains the appeal of icons like Sam Kinison and the formative effect of "seedy, underbelly side of people" in comedy and film.
• The value of defending the “trash” aesthetic, and why shows like Real Housewives provide “the only reality experience… that satisfies all the parameters I would lay out for great trash” [B, 15:03].

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4. Trash, Camp, and Stephen A. Smith

• Starts ~16:18
• Distinguishing between “trash” and “camp”. Stephen A. Smith is declared “camp” — a compelling, involuntary theatrical persona.
  • Wesley Morris [17:25]: “He has no control over how ridiculous he is… It’s not even, I hate the phrase ‘there’s no off switch,’ but… he doesn’t have any other mode.”
• Pablo shares an anecdote revealing Smith’s theatrical consistency (18:51).
  • “What he told me, instead of saying, like, ‘congratulations,’… was this monologue about the violence I will want to exact upon someone to defend this… This man is exactly who he is all the time.”

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5. The Age of the Algorithm: Is Criticism Obsolete?

• Starts ~20:19
• Discussion on algorithmic recommendations vs. curated critical voices; how Netflix and cable-era “choice” impact taste.
  • Wesley Morris [20:58]: “They’re basically bottom feeder studio executives… the algorithm… lowest common denominator.”
• Similarities to the old days (“hunting for something to watch”) and why trusted critics or curators still matter.

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6. The Craft of Criticism: Language, Voice, and “The Bite”

• Starts ~22:16
• Pablo and Wesley reflect on being young critics and overusing adverbs to sound sophisticated, before learning the art of confidence and conciseness.
  • Wesley Morris [24:37] (on J.Lo’s This Is Me…Now): “Call it Lululemonade.”
  • On writing punchy criticism: Keep the joke tight, avoid extra clauses or adverbs to preserve impact.
  • The artistry and creative freedom in criticism, and how social media hampers that freedom.
  • Wesley Morris [29:55]: “I don’t think I have it [freedom] if I’m thinking also about… what is the thing I’m going to extract from this piece, then put it on the internet and then sit around and wait for everybody to gather around and applaud it or decry it.”

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7. The State of the Movie Industry: Oscars, Stars, and What’s Next

• Starts ~31:14
• What Barbie and Barbenheimer mean (and don’t mean) for moviegoing: The supposed box office “renaissance” is mostly just lapsed moviegoers returning, not new crowds.
  • “Most of the people who were going to those movies used to be moviegoers.” [B, 31:46]
• On the death of the movie star system:
  • “If you like movie stars, guess what, you don’t have any anymore.” [B, 32:57]
  • Tom Cruise and Denzel as the last of a breed; The Rock is discussed as a different sort of "star."
• Anticipating an even more IP-driven future, with nostalgia and toy-based properties dominating Hollywood.
  • Greta Gerwig’s post-Barbie Narnia film as emblematic.

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8. The Tropes and Traps of IP, and the Erosion of Imaginative Storytelling

• Starts ~37:56
• Current Oscar nominees point to the global erosion of mid-budget, adult-driven comedies and dramas, while international films show greater creativity.
  • Wesley Morris [43:15]: “Other countries start eating our lunch from the standpoint of imagination and creativity.”
  • Laments America's shifting focus from inventive present-day stories to nostalgic or reparative histories.
  • “I want to know what it’s like to be in 2024. I want artists to show me my present, too.” [B, 43:59]

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9. Ending Banter: Taste, Attraction, and Critique

• Mark ~44:10-end
• Closing jokes on Russell Wilson, taste, and identity.
  • Morris [44:44]: “If you had like 2% gay in you, you would, you would see it. Just 2%.”
  • Pablo: “I’ve got like 1.9…”

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On “Edible” Beauty & Taste:
  “There’s a kind of person… where, like, they look like they’re made of pudding. Part of the beauty is they also seem edible somehow.”
  — Wesley Morris [01:15]

• On Criticism and Numbers:
  “The service being provided is not, ‘Is this good or is this bad?’ Right? …You don’t need a person like me. You can just go to Metacritic.”
  — Wesley Morris [06:45]

• On Stephen A. Smith:
  “He has no control over how ridiculous he is… he doesn’t have any other mode.”
  — Wesley Morris [17:25]

• On Social Media & Writing:
  “I don’t think I have it [freedom] if I’m thinking also about… what is the thing I’m going to extract from this piece, then put it on the internet and then sit around and wait for everybody to gather around and applaud it or decry it.”
  — Wesley Morris [29:55]

• On Movie Stars Fading:
  “If you like movie stars, guess what, you don’t have any anymore.”
  — Wesley Morris [32:57]

• On Hollywood IP Addiction:
  “The lesson to be learned is not that Greta Gerwig is an original voice… It’s that IP—People really want that. People want a thing they grew up with.”
  — Wesley Morris [39:22]

• On American Creatives:
  “We are giving something up every day that we stop looking at ourselves as a people in the present…”
  — Wesley Morris [43:24]

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Conclusion

This episode is a whip-smart, generous, and layered exploration of why traditional criticism, personal taste, and critical voices matter more than ever in an age of statistics and algorithms. It looks at how “taste” is built, what happens when pop culture obsesses over its own IP, and what we lose when we stop telling stories about the present. While the state of movies and movie criticism is in flux, Pablo and Wesley’s playful, passionate takes help us make sense of it—with no shortage of humor, candor, and pudding metaphors.

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For fans of criticism, pop culture, and the Oscars, this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[B]

If you had like 2% gay in you, you would see it.

[A]

Just 2% right after this ad. You're listening to Giraffe K. I'm bringing you in to talk about film and criticism and the things you do professionally. But I also promised you a platform. I'd Platform. Your Russell Wilson takes. Is that what you want to talk about with your. Your blank piece of paper in front of you that I'll let you write anything on?

[B]

He's just a beautiful person. He's just a beautiful person. And I think Ciara is the luckiest human being on earth. I don't know what it's like. Play football with this man. I don't have any idea. But I can tell you to just, like, behold him.

[A]

When you say beautiful you that. That's almost too poetic for the feeling that I think you're really describing here.

[B]

Do you want me to say he's hot?

[A]

I mean, you're the p. Prize winning critic.

[B]

Lots of people are hot. This is a different. I mean, there's a kind of person. And these people are rare where, like, you could, like, they look like they're made of pudding. You know, like, part of the beauty is they also seem edible somehow. Right. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna stay in the league and give you a really, like, nauseating example.

[A]

Of this because I'm already nauseated.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

I mean, Russell Wilson, you. He's not cool, though.

[B]

I don't care. What do I.

[A]

What.

[B]

What is my. What is my. What do my desires have to do with cool? I mean, like, y' all can have Ryan Gosling. Just take him.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

I'll take the Scorpion jacket.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, you can. You can do that guy all day long.

[A]

Everybody makes fun of Russell Wilson, but.

[B]

I think everybody's jealous. I think he is the most handsome man in the NFL.

[A]

You had pudding and edible. And what was the name in the league that.

[B]

You know what? You know what? I can't do it to everybody. It's bad. I mean, to your point, like, it is actually bad enough that I am saying this about Russell Wilson.

[A]

Safe space.

[B]

It's not safe enough to say what I was about to say. I really. I really. Because I think better of myself. But there is another person involved in professional football who is not a player who also has this kind of like, creamy edible quality. It's just that you also would get food poisoning. And nobody wants that.

[A]

Wait, who are we talking.

[B]

I can't.

[A]

Who are we talking to? What if you bleep the name?

[B]

Because I've already said. Because I've already said too much.

[A]

It's Andy Reid. Fine. Is it easier or harder to describe to people who don't know what your job is? What your job is these days?

[B]

These days?

[A]

Yeah, like the present tense.

[B]

Like, do you. Do you think there was a period in which it was easier? Might have been easier for me to do it.

[A]

Well, I went to college and I took a class in American film criticism in 2005. Elvis Mitchell was my professor.

[B]

Okay, well, you got. You got something good.

[A]

Well, New York Times critic Elvis Mitchell would commute to Cambridge and he would lecture once a week for three hours.

[B]

We watch movies. You were in the famous.

[A]

You were that American film criticism. Yes. Taught by this dreadlocked anti professor professor who was like the cool guy, like the iconoclast on campus.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was so popular because we watched movies and he's entertaining. But the point is, I took a class about criticism and of course we read Pauline Kale. We wrote about, like, Gus Van Sant and I wrote about, like, elephant and. Oh, yeah, I know, real, real academic stuff. But the point is, if I'm thinking about what criticism has become in the last. That was 05, 2024. Now, I imagine the class is just something that almost needs to define itself in the context of the present of the genre being different. And so let me ask it this way. When was it easiest to describe what it is that you do professionally?

[B]

I mean, probably in 1972.

[A]

Probably.

[B]

I mean, I'm gonna guess I wasn't around in 1972, but my, my definition would probably be the same 50 years ago and now. But essentially what you're sort of doing now is defining the job of a critic in opposition to, or, or maybe as a point of clarification with respect to what people are doing on the Internet, for instance.

[A]

Right, exactly.

[B]

Which, to be fair or honest or real or accurate, is itself a form of criticism, depending on who we're talking about.

[A]

I mean, the act, the noun, criticism is being practiced by, yes, everybody in a way that makes me want to demand from you the definition. What is it that you do? How. How do you actually describe it?

[B]

Now you want to try to use your voice and imagination and mind and personality to think through what a work, culture, art, moment in art or culture is doing and. And means.

[A]

So I figure I should also just jump in here and start to define who Wesley Morris is himself. Because the Academy Awards happen to be this Sunday. And so what I wanted to do today was just sit down with the only writer in history to ever win the Pulitzer Prize for criticism more than once. First with the Boston Globe in 2012, then again with the New York Times in 2021. And that is where Wesley still is, by the way. He is the critic at large at the New York Times. He also covers culture generally. But as for our popular understanding of what professional criticism actually is, I mean, in the world of movies, we're all familiar with this general idea, right? Because there's this Siskel and Ebert thumbs up or thumbs down customer service aspect to that job.

[B]

I, for a long time resisted that idea because in my. My literal brain was like, well, no, I'm not providing. This is not Consumer Reports. This is the daily newspaper. And I, I really just want to work through my feelings. That's all. It starts off as being for me, like, how do I feel? Well, I'm not really going to know until I sit down alone and work through my feelings, through words. And once it's clear where I'm going as I'm writing, then you can start to do all the magical things that you really don't have any control over, like language, the sort of word connections. I mean, there's a conscious part, but then there's an unconscious part. The service being provided is not, is this good or is this bad? Right? You truly can get that from lots of different places. You don't need a person like me. You can just go to Metacritic. I don't need words or Rotten Tomatoes, right?

[A]

I can go to the, to the statistical index, that is those places.

[B]

Are we looking at marinara? Are we looking at, at a, at a whole tomato?

[A]

And I mean, is that threatening, though? What does Rotten Tomatoes, what is Metacritic? These things that say 95. It gives you a grade, basically, if you're a director. What does that do for your profession?

[B]

If I'm being honest, I'm just as dependent on that quantification in other realms as, as other people are with respect to movies. Right?

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Am I going to go to a restaurant that's rated 3.7? Do you know what I mean? Like on, on any service? I don't think so. You know, if I'm, if I'm going to a country I've never been to before, and I don't know what some of these places are, and I'm, I'm, I'm winging it most of the Time I'm doing this, I'm taking the advice of people when I travel. But I think, though, just, just pure and simple, those ratings have a value, right? There is at least a baseline that you can judge your experience by in some way as a, as a moviegoer, as a diner. I think there is a value for that. But I also think that in the same way that I am talking to people who I respect before I travel somewhere about where they like to eat, I think it's great to, in addition to having the metrics to tell you what most people are into, I think there's a distance, there's an additional value to having a relationship with one or two people who do the thing all the time, right? Who go to a lot of restaurants, who watch a lot of movies. There is a record of their dining and reading and moviegoing experience.

[A]

Yeah, there's a rigor to their, to their, to their opinions.

[B]

Maybe not, right? Like, I don't even know that it has, it just should be somebody you trust. That person could have terrible taste. But I think it, it should be somebody that you can eventually develop your own taste by. And maybe you wind up breaking up with that critic because you realize they aren't rigorous and they aren't doing the work and that you now know more than they do and they suck, right?

[A]

They think Russell Wilson's super hot, for instance.

[B]

Oh, my God, just. You went. Okay, sure, sure. He might have a 3.7 according to everybody else, but I've been to that restaurant and I'm telling you, it's a 4.9. Just saying.

[A]

People will ask me, journalism students, like, what should I do if I want to do what you do? And I have settled upon a thought that I want your help sussing out, okay? Because the thought I have is you should develop a defined taste, know what you like and how to explain why you like it and know what you don't like and be able to do the same. How did you develop your taste?

[B]

When we say I have taste, it usually is meant like positively, you know, that the taste is good. I realized very early in my life that I liked, I had bad taste, right? Like I was interested in like, not gore, not necessarily violent. I liked, you know. My first John Waters experience was, was a life changing thing. The most sorted, the dirtiest, the weirdest, the rudest, the meanest, anything that I could identify as being truly funny in a, in a. Like, I, as a kid, I watched a lot of standup comedy and it was very clear to me who My favorite people were versus the people who did nothing for me.

[A]

Do you have somebody that you still think of as, like, an influence in terms of taste?

[B]

Oh, yeah. I mean, it was. It was all those women I grew up in the 80s and the early 90s. Adele Givens, Elaine Boosler, Judy Tenuta, who was a real weirdo. Do these names mean anything to you?

[A]

I could not plead more ignorance.

[B]

This is a very obvious ex. I mean, this is going to surprise you a little bit. Andrew's Ice Clay didn't really do it for me because it was such a.

[A]

Shtick and I didn't performance of I'm a Bad Boy.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's funny. It was such a performance and it was so off Elvis and so Rat Packy.

[A]

I know what you're saying. Cute comic, but he's got an attitude so you.

[B]

That. I mean, if you sort of boil it all down, this is a handsome man who hates himself and is doing everything in his power to, like, direct that hate somewhere else. And that was clear to me as a kid, and it just turned me off. But you know who I liked in a not dissimilar vein? Sam Kinison. There was something really musical about. I mean, I guess we could argue about the musicality of Dice Clay, but Sam Kinison, he came at. He was at the exact right pop rock and roll moment, right? People walk up to me, they act like they're looking at the angel of Death. It's like, oh. Oh, I know you, man. Oh. The screaming punchlines that Sam Kinison had about, you know, disappointment, insult. You know, I read the Bible, I followed the calendar. I think it's been about 2,000 years since Jesus said anything to anybody. I think his last words may have.

[A]

Been.

[B]

I just loved that. And obviously this fat guy with a big mouth, not in telling, like, really tasteless jokes, bad taste. But I loved him. And so I think the more I got exposed to this sort of seedy, underbelly side of people. My first Barbra Streisand movie was Nuts, a movie called Nuts, in which she plays a call girl who has to kill a john because he's trying to assault her, and she goes on trial for being insane. That's my first Barbra Streisand movie. Not Funny Girl.

[A]

You have a fairly disturbed childhood.

[B]

I mean, my childhood was great. My mom loved me, and so did my dad. They. I was. I was loved. But I also liked some really distasteful, discourteous, rude.

[A]

So part of your origin story here is the desire to explain why it is that you felt like the stuff that people look down on was actually some of the greatest that you had seen and vice versa.

[B]

I am a big proponent of trash as an esthetic and as a practice. I think the Real Housewives franchise is the only reality experience you can have that, that satisfies all of the parameters that I would lay out for what constitutes a great work of trash.

[A]

And even says our producer. Sorry, I could just hear him. He's cheering that a two time Pulitzer Prize winner is saying this, but please proceed.

[B]

I, you know, I don't watch everything, but I've seen more than enough to understand that the values of those shows are basically a. They're basically human beings. They're trying to work out how to be human beings. Right. And what these women are actively resisting is, is being present. Right. And so you have this tension between women who don't want to be where they are and want to be somewhere else. And what comes out of that is like. Like what is the most obnoxious, horrible, mean, awful thing I can do just to get out of here and to be off in. What do they call the little confessionals?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, confessional.

[B]

Like I want to go do a confessional. I don't want to be here. Giving the material to make the confessional to the performance of self consciousness is itself in this world, a trashy achievement.

[A]

Do you give them credit for being as compelling as you've just out. So this gets to the notion of.

[B]

Like author, what's intent.

[A]

Authorial intent. Wesley. Yes. Do you give them credit? Is it. So part of the. Weirdly I will mention Stephen A. Smith here because part of the comedy of him existing and like naming his favorite pokemon and being a love doctor just super horny on air is him not always being in on it.

[B]

Okay, So I love this. I love this. Stephen A. Smith to me is not a trash artist. He's camp, right? Where the thing that is so serious and true and earnest about him is also completely ridiculous. How many pillows is the right amount to sleep with? Stephen A. I say too personally, I agree with you. I think three is too much. I think one's too little. Two is just right because you can put one laid down and one standing up or you can put one on top of the other. Either way it goes. It should work for you if your pillows are right and he has no control over how ridiculous he is on a minute by minute basis. Right? I mean, just, just his ha. His look alone.

[A]

Oh, yeah, right, yeah. Irresistible.

[B]

I mean, you watch it Be. I mean, it's hard to. I mean, I have very mixed feelings about experiencing this man. But. But the. But the. But the fact of him.

[A]

Character that he embodies is irresistible. Because you're saying there is a. A camp level of theatricality.

[B]

Yes, yes. But also he has no control over.

[A]

And that's so important. Right, that he's not a scientist engineering the response.

[B]

He couldn't. It's.

[A]

It is in fact, carnal.

[B]

It's so much bigger than he is.

[A]

It's an id, Right? Yes.

[B]

No, I mean, it is truly an id, but it also is an ID that never had the. The sort of girding of a superego. Right, right. Like, there's nobody who can make this guy go back inside his body.

[A]

And I would never want to try.

[B]

No, I mean. I mean, imagine producing. Imagine producing him. Right. I've actually, you know what, it's funny. I've never heard a story from anybody about having like a. I was in an elevator with Stephen A. Smith. I ran into Stephen A. Smith in a parking lot. He came over to my table while I was having. I've never heard, like, he was whispering. He was. I feel like whatever it is to be on in him, it. It's not even. I hate the phrase there's no off switch. But I mean, he doesn't have any other mode. Right. Like this.

[A]

I showed him a picture of a sonogram. My daughter's like, imaging in the makeup room during. In between shows one day. And what he told me, instead of saying, like, congratulations, this is great, was. And I won't even begin to imitate him, basically that you are going to want to defend this child's life to the point where you will kill a man. And he gave this monologue about just like the violence I will want to exact upon someone to defend this. This image. And I said to myself, this man is exactly who he is all the time.

[B]

There's also no thinking. Right. I mean, his thinking, I guess it feels like instinct. Right. There's no. There's no plan. And this is, again, what gets him to camp and not trash. He's not trashy.

[A]

I want to go to the hypothetical world in which someone is like, wanting to become a professional movie critic or cultural critic, either one, really, at this point, the notion of how. How in demand that occupation is. What is your blunt assessment of how that's changed, given that oftentimes we're not even the ones to type in the name?

[B]

No.

[A]

Like you just. It's just given. As opposed to like you say, I want to go and consult my informed friend, an expert. That's like so much more work than what's happening now where they're giving it to you and saying, you like this.

[B]

That's not that different from the old remote cable days. Right. We now understand that there's a system behind the scenes of these, these platforms that, that claim to know what we were gonna like, but they don't. It's like this. They're, they're basically bottom feeder studio executives. Essentially. That algorithm.

[A]

Yes, right, Absolutely.

[B]

It's the lowest common denominator. You liked this, so we're going to give you this. And it's kind of hilarious to me what they, what they will follow something with, because I'm actually curious, like, okay, I just watched Barbie, now you're going to give me Working Girl. What do you think the connection is between these two movies other than the fact that they star two very sexy blondes? Right. But I do think that it's not that different from when you were hunting for something to watch in the old.

[A]

Days and you didn't have the ability to choose at all.

[B]

Right. And it was already chosen for you. So you, your, your wheel of fortune would like just land on, you know, National Lampoon's Vacation X xyz, and you'd be like, oh, I kind of like this movie. There's, there's three more of them. Clint Eastwood. I don't know who this guy is, but I'm into it. I'll, I'm going to watch the Beguiled next.

[A]

Can you, can you explain how it is that you even got the, the, the idea to do this job?

[B]

Wait, I actually want to ask you a related question. What happened at the end of Elvis's class? Because did. I mean, what was your experience learning this history and then practicing a little bit of it yourself?

[A]

Oh, my experience personally was revisited today as I was trying to find my final paper on elephant by Gus Van Sant. And I was like, I used in my attempt to imitate New York Times film critics poorly. So many adverbs.

[B]

Janet Maslin is what you.

[A]

That's right. Okay, but just, just the idea of like, oh, I was cosplaying as a critic, which is to say I was channeling a voice that when I revisit it now makes me cringe so hard that I turn inside out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That I am, I am trying to replicate sophistication with adverbs, which is the telltale sign that you're not actually confident in the verb you chose Right.

[B]

I've been doing this now in some capacity since I was 12 years old. I wrote for my. I wrote for my middle school newspaper, my high school newspaper, my college newspaper. And during somewhere in that period, I wrote for the Philadelphia Daily News, because I'm from Philadelphia, and they had this kids section called Yo Fresh, Inc. And they got all these kids to write for it. It was like. It. It's corny, but it was legitimately cool.

[A]

What were you like back then as. As. As your takes were concerned?

[B]

Pro, but probably the same, but adverb. Year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. Because I think that at some point, the. The. The things that separated the. The big cats from the little cats was their command of English right there, if we're talking about writing in English, is their command of the fun that they have with the language. And for me, adverbs were fun. I just liked using them a lot because, you know, putting a lot of words in front of another word just seemed like a cool thing to do.

[A]

There is one sentence that you wrote recently. You reviewed Jennifer Lopez's allegorical film about her life, which we've also talked about on the show, incidentally, but you had a sentence where you had a sentence devoid. Devoid of adverbs. And I think confidence in writing, just to illustrate the kind of writer you are, also comes from the confidence to do a short sentence.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And you called Jennifer Lopez's allegory about love, and you compared it to, of course, Beyonce, Lemonade, and you said, I believe the quote is something like, call it Lululemonade.

[B]

Oh, my God, this thing is so deep. Like, she basically. Jennifer Lopez, one of our great stars, one of our great global entertainers, took it upon herself to ask herself, I can do anything with all this money that I've got. What is the thing I'd like to do? I want to make something about my relationship to a. To a thing that's very important to me, and that's relationships. But also, I want to work in the zodiac.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I want to think about all of my old relationships and why I've been married so many times, but I also want to think about how I can make this about getting better and. And being a better person. She's clearly working through something she's been through, and I'm like, okay, well, Beyonce has done this. Right? Like, Lemonade is essentially about the. The. Those. The roadblocks, speed bumps, trap doors that she found herself being put through at a certain point in her marriage. And I'm like, these things are similar. And I. There's no doubt in my mind that, that Jennifer Lopez watched Lemonade and thought, well, what would my version of this be? And because Jennifer Lopez is so. I think we don't think of her as being neurotic, but I think because her neurosis isn't verbal, it's physical. Right. She is a physically restless human being. She's always in motion. She's always like, there's no peace in her, in her body. Like her body is always going like this. I mean, she's a great dancer.

[A]

It's kind of like doing a, a karate kata, as they called it, like a martial arts routine.

[B]

That's. I mean, it is about self defense.

[A]

Like a multi step self defense performance.

[B]

There is something about being like keeping out and protecting and you know, all that physical stuff just reminds me of like, if the Lululemonade thing came to me, I thought like, maybe there's a Gatorade joke to make or like a Kool Aid joke to make. But they didn't feel right and I didn't have it until I just sort of started working through what the Persona is about. When you've got a joke that I think is going to resonate with people as a very concise explanation of what the, what the thing under consideration is.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You don't want to step on it.

[A]

You want, you don't want to adverb it up.

[B]

Right. Well, not only that, but you don't even want a clause.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You don't want. I mean, because I actually was like, well, maybe I need a clause. D. Like, no, all of your clause work has to go on the front end. Even if it cost you something a little bit in the rhythm of the setup. You want to keep the referent as close to the referee. Right. Or, you know, you want to keep the two references basically together.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if you're making a comparison, you can't, you can't have like 200 words between the setup and the punchline.

[A]

But the point here, I think underlying all of it is that there is a bite to that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like JLO reads that and is like, feels like she's just been hit by a karate kick. Like there's. And I. Not because you intended it to hurt her, but just because it cuts through in one line to the stylization and the hollowness and the artifice of this performance of, of strength, but also vulnerability.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes. That is re. That is Pablo.

[A]

I mean, look, I took American film criticism as a sophomore in college.

[B]

It's very good.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Yeah. And I, you know, one of the things that I think in order to be able to do this job, I mean, you'll talk to any, any actual artist. And I think there's artistry to the, to criticism.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

But if you talk to like a person who dances for a living or sings for a living or acts for a living or, you know, writes novels or writes really anything plays a sport, right. Like, just watching a great athlete do what they do, there's a freedom that, like, you know, even under pressure, they're like, you don't know that it's match point based on the way, you know, I mean, just to pick a person, Carlos Alcaraz is like returning the ball. Right. I don't even think he thinks he's going to lose. Even when he, even when he does lose, he is still playing like he's up, you know, 40 love. And I think that kind of freedom in, in, in. In what I do, it really is hard to come by. And I'm very lucky that I'm not on social media.

[A]

I was gonna say you haven't tweeted in about two years, which. Congratulations.

[B]

Thank you. I mean, I'm not proud.

[A]

You've missed nothing.

[B]

I just feel like for my own sanity and really for me to be able to like, practice this freedom that I'm talking to you about.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

It, I don't think it comes, I don't think I have it. If I'm thinking also about how to. What is the thing I'm going to extract from this piece, then put it on the Internet and then sit around and wait for everybody to gather around and, and applaud it or, you know, decry it.

[A]

Well, it. Get. It gets to the question of why you are writing things the way that you do. Why is your opinion this and not that? And I think for a lot of us who exist mostly by looking through the lens of a feedback loop, you are trying to get the scientist to give you. More pellets. Yeah, more pellets, please. Like, I would like, I would like to feel good. I want the serotonin.

[B]

I mean, I don't know what the numbers are on my. It's funny, I shouldn't tell.

[A]

Let's talk about the numbers.

[B]

Like I, I, I. Somebody came over to me today to, to. Well, it's not, it's too in the weeds, but basically, I don't know how the stuff I do does.

[A]

I would prefer not to know for my own stuff.

[B]

I don't want to know. Do you know?

[A]

I can know, but I would like to not make decisions based on the scientist giving me powers.

[B]

Exactly, Exactly. Exactly. So I. I just don't. I don't know how the pieces do. I still have a job. They still let me write what I want. As long as that's true. And, you know, I'm not like, having things killed or canceled or taken away. I mean, I'm okay.

[A]

But as for whether the. The movie industry itself is okay and this question of what films, what things actually get made these days, I did want to look ahead to. Yes. The 96th annual Academy Awards this weekend and ask Wesley what he thought about the last year in film, from Barbie to Oppenheimer, and what it taught us about cinema today and movie stars today.

[B]

The delusion about the Barbie, the Barbenheimer thing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Is that it's gonna lead to more people wanting to go to the movies. I mean, I feel like that's ridiculous because most of the people who were going to those movies used to be moviegoers. It's not like some breed of person was created in the last. You know, and they said this about Top Gun too. I think people. We had a pandemic where people were terrified to sit in the dark in a enclosed space for a long time with people. That takes some getting used to again, you know, you. I mean, for some people, the pandemic is not over, Right?

[A]

Correct.

[B]

It's. They're still living with either the ramifications of it or a fear of experiencing whatever they experienced in 20. 20 or 20.

[A]

Yeah. A medical fear.

[B]

And I think that the sort of cultural reintegration of ourselves back into, like, enclosed spaces with each other is real. I also think that the movies have to give us a reason to want to go, and there aren't that many. We're all. We're already not getting as many movies as we used to get, you know, 15 years ago. That could be good. It also, I don't think, for my purposes, it's good at all. If you like movie stars, guess what, you don't have any anymore. Right. There's no movie star narrative to like. I don't know. I mean, I'm trying to. Who is a person? I'm like Alden Aaron Reich. Does that name anything to you?

[A]

I mean, just the Han Solo performance. That bummed me out a bit.

[B]

He's an Oppenheimer. He's the guy who, like dressing down Robert Downey Jr. That guy. I mean, we should be on movie. On starring movie number seven, Right. Miles Teller, Same thing. Michael B. Jordan. Michael B. Jordan is Adonis Creed for Life and Killmonger. Right. And I just feel like there are fewer and fewer opportunities for these people to establish Persona through movies that are, that tell a story across time. Right. The idea that Denzel Washington became a star essentially in 1987. There's nobody like that now. The idea of a Tom, like, the reason we love Tom Cruise so much is because this dude has not changed. He's still doing now what he was doing 35 years ago and happily doing it. And we are happy to see him happy to be doing it too.

[A]

But yes, he's the IP that reboots itself.

[B]

But is he ever going to play Jerry Maguire again? Is he ever going to play the dude he played in Magnolia? You know, I mean, the question is like, is he ever going to do another. What is that movie, American Made where he's the, he's the pilot. I love that movie. He's so good in it. And the movie is pretty solid.

[A]

American Made. Yeah.

[B]

He's not gonna do another one of those because didn't make enough money. I mean, I don't want to speak for Tom Cruise, but the, but the business imperatives. He wants to win.

[A]

We have the Rock. Wesley.

[B]

Oh my God. Go on, go on. Public talk to me about the Rock.

[A]

What it feels like, it feels like objectively, he is our biggest star.

[B]

Okay, go on.

[A]

Why am I in a corner defending the edibility of the Rock? All I'm saying is the time that we're living in now feels for me as a guy who never became a critic despite taking a class about film criticism. It kind of feels like a bit of a bummer. And I am, I, I, I am enjoying the ways in which you are not necessarily feeling that.

[B]

I don't feel. No, no, no. I don't feel. I'm not bummed out. But I also understand that where we're gonna be in 10 years with respect to like where we were 20 years ago is going to be really different.

[A]

Yeah, I'm going to be reviewing AI Like AI Generate. Like Tyler Perry's AI generated seven part series.

[B]

I mean, you introduced the Rock as, as a continuation of, of a thing that, that Tom Cruise and Denzel Washington are among the last people to movie star. Yeah, I don't, I think he, he missed his, I mean, not. He missed his chance, but like, where's the proof? Like, what's he doing? He's doing, I mean, his sequels. He's.

[A]

No, he's back wrestling now.

[B]

I mean, for real. It used to be if we were going back maybe 12 years ago. The WWE needed him to go back way more than he needed it now. I think he needs them more than they need him.

[A]

What is this year in movies defined by? What did you find out this year in movies? Wesley Morris and Pablo Torre finds out. What did you find out about cinema this year?

[B]

I. I think we. That we don't know what it is. We think we know, but we don't. Right. I don't think that knowing is really that important. But I also think that we are in a real transition point away from something. And you could see it in. In just what Barbenheimer meant. But you can also see it like at the end of Cora Jefferson's movie American Fiction, right. Where I don't want to ruin it for anybody, but there's a shot that basically is like the movie sort of throwing its hands up and being like. I mean, this is. This is what they do. This is all they gonna do. It's just this over and over and over again. And I don't know that I necessarily believe that, but I definitely think that the cynical conclusion that it. That it draws is. Is damning of a moment that we are actually in right now. Right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Where no matter what you think of. Of Oppenheimer, the sheer fact of the movie is that it's a movie biography, period. Right. It is a movie about a person who did a thing. And the person playing the person who did the thing has to play the person who did the thing. And there are like clear parameters for how to do that thing. And in a completely different realm, you've got a movie like Poor Things, which I think is extraordinary from the standpoint of the eye, the ear, with respect to the language that the characters use to communicate with each other, particularly Emma Stone. That is a movie star performance. That is a feat of technical acting. You have the bonus of Mark Ruffalo doing something the movie doesn't even need him to do, and he just goes, you know, to outer space with it. I think that the lesson that we're gonna learn from all this stuff is more movies based on toys. With respect to Barbie, we were kind of already there. Right. But this really put a nail in the coffin for going in some other direction. Right. And with, I mean, I think Greta Gerwig, that is definitely one of the five best directed movies I saw last year. There's no question about it. The thing from beginning to end is a unified vision coming from one person. Agree about this experience of barbiness. Right. And all the ways in which this doll matters both to the community of Barbies, but also to the people who make them happen in the real world. I think that the lesson to be learned is not that Greta Gerwig is an original voice in American movies. It's that IP People really want that People want a thing they grew up with. People are nostalgic. Any lesson. But. But Greta Gerwig is a great American filmmaker and let her do anything she wants. Because you know what she's doing now, don't you?

[A]

No.

[B]

I mean, I love her. She can do whatever she wants. I'm not here to question her choices and I'm sure it's going to be really good. But I think she's doing a Narnia movie. Oh, she's going. She's reopening the wardrobe. Right. So I, I don't know what in.

[A]

There needs CS Lewis, as IP feels. Feels like.

[B]

I mean, but it was already. Right?

[A]

I mean, they made.

[B]

This would be a. This would be bringing back to life that has been brought back to life in many other iterations. So I, I trust her, but I also, I don't know, maybe. Maybe it's too much to want her to make another Ladybird. Do you know what I mean? Because Ladybird is in all the other movies. Right? It's in, it's in Little Women, it's in Barbie. This is a, this is a unified sensibility that we are talking about here.

[A]

But this is something that I believe that you are familiar with the idea of. I'm going to take something that is mainstream and reverse engineer able from a broad consumption standpoint, and I'm going to use it as a Trojan horse for some stuff that actually might be interesting.

[B]

Yes. Also, there's a way that you could just go the opposite direction and just do the thing that is actually interesting. Right.

[A]

That would be nice.

[B]

And so I, I'm really curious to see what happens to Justine Trie, who made Anatomy of a Fall, because the Hollywood people seem to really love her. What happens to Cord Jefferson because he's worked in the industry with this amazing magical special.

[A]

I've already told Cord, like, I expect you to direct a Marvel movie and.

[B]

And you're being silly. Right? Right. When you, you weren't serious.

[A]

I, I was joking. But also as soon as I said the joke, I was like, I bet he's also getting a call about directing.

[B]

A. I'm sure he's getting a call about that. But I think that you watch this movie that this guy made and I don't want to say there's no way he doesn't do it. I mean, he did write the Watchmen. He wrote. He wrote a couple episodes of the Watchmen. And, you know, the one he wrote was. It was beautiful. And that show, that series is beautiful. So it's not to. I don't want to force change.

[A]

Correct. Really.

[B]

What it means to go into that world. But that's not my point. My point is I miss when people. When I'm. I'm not nostalgic for this. I think it's actually important to our understanding of ourselves to have dramas and comedies that are just about people in situations. And they don't fly, they don't have superhuman strength. They aren't Deadpool, you know, which I think those things have their place. But I also wonder, like, what would it look like for somebody to try to do Trading Places now? If that screenplay just landed on some executive's desk right now, what happens to it? Forget Trading Places. What happens to, like, House Sitter? Remember that movie, Goldie Hawn and Steve Martin? I'm not saying these are great works of art, but I don't know. I think that what we lose when we sort of put our own. Our eggs in this one basket, and you can see it in the Oscar nominations, is other countries start eating our lunch. From the standpoint of the imagination and creativity.

[A]

That is a great way of putting it.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[A]

I mean, we used to have. Back in my day in America, we had imaginations.

[B]

We are giving something up every day that we stop looking at ourselves as. As a people in the present and start thinking. I mean, I guess there is a kind of reparative work, for instance, that a movie like Oppenheimer is trying to do or that movie like Killers of the Flower Moon is trying to do. But, you know, and to Scorsese's credit, He's in his 80s, and this is like, he should be looking back at what violence means and what crime means. This is a meaningful thing for him to do. But, you know, I want to know what it's like to be in 2024.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I want artists to like. Like, show me my present, too.

[A]

Right, right, right, right. You want Russell Wilson to be in the Trading Places reboot.

[B]

Actually, that. I mean, he. There's some part for him in there. It's not. It's not Eddie Murphy's part, but there's a. There's a role for Russell Wilson in something.

[A]

Wesley Morris, before I get just furious with you, I should tell you that I greatly enjoyed this and I thank you for.

[B]

You're going to get mad about Russell Wilson.

[A]

I'm just saying, I mean, I value your eye.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And I'm like, come on, man, if.

[B]

You had like 2% gay in you, you would, you would see it. Just 2%.

[A]

I got like 1.9 and I feel like it's not doing it.

[B]

You can, you can borrow my point one to get you over.

[A]

That's, that's, that's. The next episode of Palator finds out let's do it out being the operative word. This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media Production and I'll talk to you next time.

[B]

Sam.