Pablo Torre Finds Out — "The New New Tastemakers: An Edible Oscars Preview"

Host: Pablo Torre
Guest: Wesley Morris (Pulitzer Prize-winning critic, New York Times)
Date: March 7, 2024

Episode Overview

This episode takes listeners on a witty, insightful journey into the worlds of film criticism and contemporary movie culture, anchored by the forthcoming Oscars. Pablo Torre and guest Wesley Morris dissect what it means to be a critic in the age of algorithms, the shifting nature of “taste,” the role of professional critique versus crowdsourced ratings, and what’s changed (and what’s been lost) in the state of movie stardom and filmmaking. They blend deep industry knowledge with playful debates (including hot takes on Russell Wilson’s "edibility") for a smart, hilarious conversation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Edible" Question: Criticism, Attraction, & Edibility

• Starts ~00:13
• The episode opens with Wesley riffing on the concept of “edibility” in attractiveness — not just "hotness," but something creamy, pudding-like, “edible” in certain celebrity personalities.
  • Memorable quote:
    Wesley Morris [01:15]: “There’s a kind of person… where, like, they look like they’re made of pudding. Part of the beauty is they also seem edible somehow.”
• Pablo and Wesley's banter about Russell Wilson (“the most handsome man in the NFL”), Andy Reid, and how “coolness” isn’t the point in attraction.
  • Pablo Torre [01:40]: “Russell Wilson… he’s not cool, though.”
  • Wesley Morris: “I don’t care… What do my desires have to do with cool?”

2. Defining Modern Criticism: What Is a Critic Today?

• Starts ~03:23–07:48
• Pablo and Wesley contrast the traditional role of critics (Siskel and Ebert, Consumer Reports) with today’s landscape, where everyone is a critic and metrics like Rotten Tomatoes rule.
  • Importance of working through feelings, not just offering a customer-service take:
    Wesley Morris [06:45]: “For a long time I resisted that idea… This is not Consumer Reports… I really just want to work through my feelings.”
• The critic provides perspective—a “record” of taste—rather than mere aggregation.

3. Taste: Developing, Owning, and Explaining It

• Starts ~10:22
• Pablo asks how critics develop their taste. Wesley recounts being drawn to “bad taste”: trashy, rude, or weird pop culture, standup comedy, John Waters movies.
  • “I realized very early in my life that I… had bad taste.” [Wesley, 10:46]
  • Influences: 80s/90s female comedians (Adele Givens, Elaine Boosler, Judy Tenuta) and “bad-boy” comics (but never Andrew Dice Clay).
  • Explains the appeal of icons like Sam Kinison and the formative effect of "seedy, underbelly side of people" in comedy and film.
• The value of defending the “trash” aesthetic, and why shows like Real Housewives provide “the only reality experience… that satisfies all the parameters I would lay out for great trash” [B, 15:03].

4. Trash, Camp, and Stephen A. Smith

• Starts ~16:18
• Distinguishing between “trash” and “camp”. Stephen A. Smith is declared “camp” — a compelling, involuntary theatrical persona.
  • Wesley Morris [17:25]: “He has no control over how ridiculous he is… It’s not even, I hate the phrase ‘there’s no off switch,’ but… he doesn’t have any other mode.”
• Pablo shares an anecdote revealing Smith’s theatrical consistency (18:51).
  • “What he told me, instead of saying, like, ‘congratulations,’… was this monologue about the violence I will want to exact upon someone to defend this… This man is exactly who he is all the time.”

5. The Age of the Algorithm: Is Criticism Obsolete?

• Starts ~20:19
• Discussion on algorithmic recommendations vs. curated critical voices; how Netflix and cable-era “choice” impact taste.
  • Wesley Morris [20:58]: “They’re basically bottom feeder studio executives… the algorithm… lowest common denominator.”
• Similarities to the old days (“hunting for something to watch”) and why trusted critics or curators still matter.

6. The Craft of Criticism: Language, Voice, and “The Bite”

• Starts ~22:16
• Pablo and Wesley reflect on being young critics and overusing adverbs to sound sophisticated, before learning the art of confidence and conciseness.
  • Wesley Morris [24:37] (on J.Lo’s This Is Me…Now): “Call it Lululemonade.”
  • On writing punchy criticism: Keep the joke tight, avoid extra clauses or adverbs to preserve impact.
  • The artistry and creative freedom in criticism, and how social media hampers that freedom.
  • Wesley Morris [29:55]: “I don’t think I have it [freedom] if I’m thinking also about… what is the thing I’m going to extract from this piece, then put it on the internet and then sit around and wait for everybody to gather around and applaud it or decry it.”

7. The State of the Movie Industry: Oscars, Stars, and What’s Next

• Starts ~31:14
• What Barbie and Barbenheimer mean (and don’t mean) for moviegoing: The supposed box office “renaissance” is mostly just lapsed moviegoers returning, not new crowds.
  • “Most of the people who were going to those movies used to be moviegoers.” [B, 31:46]
• On the death of the movie star system:
  • “If you like movie stars, guess what, you don’t have any anymore.” [B, 32:57]
  • Tom Cruise and Denzel as the last of a breed; The Rock is discussed as a different sort of "star."
• Anticipating an even more IP-driven future, with nostalgia and toy-based properties dominating Hollywood.
  • Greta Gerwig’s post-Barbie Narnia film as emblematic.

8. The Tropes and Traps of IP, and the Erosion of Imaginative Storytelling

• Starts ~37:56
• Current Oscar nominees point to the global erosion of mid-budget, adult-driven comedies and dramas, while international films show greater creativity.
  • Wesley Morris [43:15]: “Other countries start eating our lunch from the standpoint of imagination and creativity.”
  • Laments America's shifting focus from inventive present-day stories to nostalgic or reparative histories.
  • “I want to know what it’s like to be in 2024. I want artists to show me my present, too.” [B, 43:59]

9. Ending Banter: Taste, Attraction, and Critique

• Mark ~44:10-end
• Closing jokes on Russell Wilson, taste, and identity.
  • Morris [44:44]: “If you had like 2% gay in you, you would, you would see it. Just 2%.”
  • Pablo: “I’ve got like 1.9…”

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On “Edible” Beauty & Taste:
  “There’s a kind of person… where, like, they look like they’re made of pudding. Part of the beauty is they also seem edible somehow.”
  — Wesley Morris [01:15]

• On Criticism and Numbers:
  “The service being provided is not, ‘Is this good or is this bad?’ Right? …You don’t need a person like me. You can just go to Metacritic.”
  — Wesley Morris [06:45]

• On Stephen A. Smith:
  “He has no control over how ridiculous he is… he doesn’t have any other mode.”
  — Wesley Morris [17:25]

• On Social Media & Writing:
  “I don’t think I have it [freedom] if I’m thinking also about… what is the thing I’m going to extract from this piece, then put it on the internet and then sit around and wait for everybody to gather around and applaud it or decry it.”
  — Wesley Morris [29:55]

• On Movie Stars Fading:
  “If you like movie stars, guess what, you don’t have any anymore.”
  — Wesley Morris [32:57]

• On Hollywood IP Addiction:
  “The lesson to be learned is not that Greta Gerwig is an original voice… It’s that IP—People really want that. People want a thing they grew up with.”
  — Wesley Morris [39:22]

• On American Creatives:
  “We are giving something up every day that we stop looking at ourselves as a people in the present…”
  — Wesley Morris [43:24]

Conclusion

This episode is a whip-smart, generous, and layered exploration of why traditional criticism, personal taste, and critical voices matter more than ever in an age of statistics and algorithms. It looks at how “taste” is built, what happens when pop culture obsesses over its own IP, and what we lose when we stop telling stories about the present. While the state of movies and movie criticism is in flux, Pablo and Wesley’s playful, passionate takes help us make sense of it—with no shortage of humor, candor, and pudding metaphors.

For fans of criticism, pop culture, and the Oscars, this episode is essential listening.