Podcast Summary

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode: The Points You Shouldn't Score: A New Year's Resolution
Air Date: January 6, 2026
Host: Pablo Torre
Guest: Thi Nguyen (Author, Philosophy Professor, University of Utah)

Overview:

This episode explores the increasingly pervasive role of scoring systems, metrics, and gamification in modern life—and how they shape our values, behaviors, and even our sense of self. Philosopher and author Thi Nguyen joins Pablo Torre for a deep dive into how external metrics—from social media likes to standardized rankings—can “capture” our internal values, outsourcing our meaning-making to institutions, algorithms, and simplified point systems. As 2026 begins, Pablo invites listeners to re-examine whether we’re playing the right games—and whether our goals serve our true purposes.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Personal and Societal Invasion of Metrics (02:43 – 05:21)

• Thi Nguyen and Pablo Torre connect over pandemic routines and the absence of natural boundaries in remote work.
  • “I realized part of why I fell apart was I didn’t have a commute anymore…” (02:43 – Thi Nguyen)
• Pablo introduces Nguyen's book, The Score, as a revelation about how we internalize external scoring systems, especially outside of sports.
  • Torre: "I've been outsourcing the most fundamental parts of my…I mean, you call it values. They are values." (04:20)

2. Value Capture: How Metrics Hijack What Matters (07:05 – 11:29)

• Nguyen frames the rise of metrics and scoring as a centuries-old movement, not just a feature of contemporary social media.
  • “Algorithmization is just the tip of the iceberg... this is the end point of a 3 to 500 year movement…” (07:25 – Thi Nguyen)
• Discusses philosopher Thomas Hobbes’ insight: the ultimate power is controlling definitions and meaning.
  • “The greatest power is the power of definition of words... because then you're telling people what to do in society, in governance.” (08:33 – Thi Nguyen)
• Nguyen’s key concept: “value capture”
  • Definition: When an institutional or algorithmic metric replaces your complex, evolving values with a simplified score or outcome.
  • Example: US News & World Report’s law school rankings refocused student discussions from personal fit and mission to "what’s the best school" as dictated by rankings. (11:29)
  • Nguyen: “You're outsourcing figuring out for yourself what you care about and you're putting it in somebody else's hands.” (13:30)

3. Metrics in Creative and Professional Life (14:37 – 17:22)

• Pablo talks about creative work being re-engineered for algorithms, not art or meaning.
  • “All of that stuff is now part of the process of making something that should ideally tell a story… Instead, you’re looking at, you know, Netflix doing this, you write about Netflix and engagement hours...” (14:37 – Pablo Torre)
• Nguyen says awareness of metrics is fine—as long as you don’t replace your actual values with the score itself.
  • Nguyen: “If you hang on to your values, you can make that trade-off in an informed way… If, on the other hand, you're value captured... you will do anything it takes to make your subscriber count go up.” (16:30)

4. The Allure and Danger of Clarity in Scoring (17:22 – 20:35)

• Games provide clarity and shared goals, allowing us to “be blissfully concentrated,” but clarity outside games can make us miserable.
  • “Games are the art form of agency itself…” (17:40 – Thi Nguyen)
  • “A gamified system allows us to outsource what is a complicated decision that ultimately redounds to our own sense of self and confidence.” (19:44 – Pablo Torre)
• Metrics can keep us playing even when we’re unhappy.
  • Torre: “Clarity of a metric also keeps us playing even when it makes us miserable.” (20:22)

5. The Separation of Goal and Purpose (20:35 – 23:02)

• Nguyen distinguishes between “the goal” (what the game/code/metric tells you to do) and “the purpose” (why you play/engage).
  • “The goal of the game is the target... your purpose is why you play… For a lot of us, there's a deep difference.” (20:44 – Thi Nguyen)
  • Example: You can “lose” a party game but still achieve your purpose (fun, community).
  • Nguyen: "If your only goal is to make that number go up, then you will do anything it takes to make your subscriber count go up." (21:16)
  • Freedoms are lost when we can't keep these apart—especially in metric-driven environments.

6. When Optimization Ruins the Game (24:52 – 29:11)

• Metrics change incentives, sometimes undermining the very spirit that made an experience or product enjoyable.
  • Torre uses the NBA’s three-point phenomenon as an example: "Metrics have created... this incentive structure where there are lots of threes being taken... But it is at odds with what the fan is looking for." (25:20)
  • Nguyen: “If your goal was to increase the richness of your experience here, then you should have held back...” (27:34)
• Hyper-optimization evokes problems beyond sports—affecting culture, workplaces, and life meaning.

7. The Philosophy of Games, Life, and Value (29:11 – 33:13)

• Nguyen draws on Bernard Suits’ definition of games: “Games are voluntarily taking on unnecessary obstacles to create the possibility of struggling to overcome them.”
  • Nguyen: “If you call a Lyft, it doesn’t count as crossing the finish line of a marathon. Similarly, if you thought the goal of basketball was to pass the ball through the net, you’d just use a step ladder at night… but that’s stupid. The value is in the process, not the outcome.” (31:38)
• When we hyper-optimize for outcomes (the point total, the rank), we can lose or destroy the purpose and beauty of the game or activity.

8. The Limits of Metrics and the "Facade of Objectivity" (33:13 – 38:28)

• Pablo points out that shame and moral guardrails have lost power in a world obsessed with growth or “the green arrow.”
  • "Shame has never felt less effective than it does right now… a system in which the one thing that matters is growth… the green arrow going up and to the right." (32:18 – Pablo Torre)
• Nguyen argues that metrics never fully capture the complexity and context of what matters—especially once organizations and platforms standardize and systematize what "counts."
  • Example: Tech companies selling metrics as democratizing, when in reality editorial judgment and human expertise may be lost. (37:51)
  • “Metrics are that for values, right? What a metric is is it’s telling you something that anyone can use and understand... but there’s a price.” (38:28 – Thi Nguyen)

9. Data: Its Powers and Its Pitfalls (42:00 – 45:32)

• Acknowledges that large-scale data can identify real problems (e.g., gender bias), but overreliance leads to “missing the heart” (43:44)
  • “Database approaches seem to be really good at knocking down the door at the really blunt stuff. Then decades later, they tend to miss the subtle stuff and capture everyone’s attention… Everyone just games and optimizes for the little thing that’s measured.” (44:35 – Thi Nguyen)
  • “How much of what makes our life valuable is actually easy to count together?” (45:22 – Thi Nguyen)

10. The Hope for a New Ethos—and Its Limits (45:32 – 46:30)

• Pablo predicts: "Popularity will become uncool," suspecting a backlash against algorithmic optimization of “pop” metrics.
• Nguyen is skeptical: even anti-popularity can be gamified and commodified by institutions (“punk points”). (46:13)

11. Personal Stories and the Big Question (46:30 – End)

• Thi Nguyen shares the deeply moving story of an undergraduate who escaped a depressive spiral after grasping the idea that she could choose what she’s measured by—and what game she plays.
  • "She changed the background of her iPhone to remind her every day… the words, 'Is this the game you really want to be playing?'" (47:38 – Thi Nguyen)
• Pablo: “Is this really the game you want to be playing is, I think, a great thought for all of us to begin 2026.” (48:38)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The greatest power is the power of definition of words... because then you're telling people what to do in society, in governance.” — Thi Nguyen (08:33)
• “Value capture is when you start to care about that as the thing you're trying to do.” — Thi Nguyen (11:32)
• “All of that stuff is now part of the process of making something that should ideally tell a story.” — Pablo Torre (14:44)
• "If you hang on to your values, you can make that trade-off in an informed way… If, on the other hand, you're value captured... you will do anything it takes to make your subscriber count go up." — Thi Nguyen (16:30)
• “Games are the art form of agency itself.” – Thi Nguyen (17:40)
• “If your only goal is to make that number go up, then you will do anything it takes to make your subscriber count go up.” – Thi Nguyen (21:16)
• “Is this the game you really want to be playing?” — Thi Nguyen, quoting the student who inspired his book (47:38)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Value Capture & Law School Rankings Example – 11:29
• Creative Industry Metrics & The YouTube Algorithm – 14:37
• Difference Between Goal and Purpose in Games and Life – 20:35
• NBA Three-Point Optimization & Game Design Problems – 24:52
• Spirit of Play vs. Hyper-Optimization – 29:11
• Why Metrics Can't Capture Everything – 33:13
• The “Facade of Objectivity” and Loss of Expertise – 37:51
• Risks and Rewards of Large-scale Data – 42:00
• Can “Uncool” Become Cool Again? – 45:32
• The Student’s Personal Story & the Episode’s Key Question – 47:07

Conclusion & Takeaways

This thought-provoking conversation urges listeners to examine the metrics, rankings, and games—literal and metaphorical—that structure our ambitions and vulnerabilities. The episode serves as a New Year’s prompt to ask: Who or what is defining success for you? Are you playing a game that fulfills your purpose, or just chasing points in someone else’s system?

Final reflection:
“Is this the game you really want to be playing?”