← Pablo Torre Finds Out
Pablo Torre Finds Out
'The Reason To Get the F**k Up': Domonique Foxworth on Diabetes of the Ego (and the Job He Wanted)
00:48:33
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.
- [00:06]
B
I don't care. I'm dead. Read my phone. See all this embarrassing stuff? Check out my porn history. Knock yourself out.
- [00:12]
A
I'm dead right after this ad. You're listening to Giraffe Kings.
- [00:32]
B
Looks good right there, right? Is that you grabbing my bosom as you suckle my nipple again? All right, I think we're good to go, guys. For free. It's always free. Free titty milk. I'm giving to all of metal. Metal arc goodness.
- [00:47]
A
We're rolling on free titty milk, I hope. Very good. I love suckling at Dominique's teeth. Okay, so if you don't know the bountiful resume of Dominique Foxworth, host of the Dominique Foxworth show, you should know that he was a cornerback for a half dozen years in the NFL.
- [01:24]
B
The.
- [01:25]
A
The youngest vice president in the history of the NFL Players Association. The president of the players union, and then a graduate of Harvard Business School. And then the chief operating officer of the NBA players union. And then, among still other things, a deeply overqualified gas bag at espn. Which means that Dominique has personally negotiated multi billion dollar collective bargaining agreements against some of the richest, most powerful people in America. And that he is also a fantastic person to talk to about all of the trade offs between sanity and incredible ambition.
- [02:07]
B
All right, back to the CBA negotiations. You want to know who was not impressive? Yeah, I don't know if there are specific people. I think just the experience was not what I thought it was.
- [02:17]
A
Well, there's a cult of the billionaire. Right, Right.
- [02:19]
B
Whenever I talk about this, it's. It always sounds like a jab, but I don't mean it as a jab. It's just like. No, they're normal. And so like, by the way, I.
- [02:27]
A
This is my parallel experience to going to Harvard. Yeah, it wasn't. I went there and I was blown away. I mean, a little. A little. I wish I had to look at me, Louis button here. But the point being that when we went there, Dominique, our takeaway collectively was not holy. Yeah, this is where they're keeping all the geniuses. It's holy. There's a dude vomiting into a sock and throwing it out his dorm room window. And that dude is me. But the point is, lots of other people did that too.
- [02:57]
B
Yeah, that was my experience at business school is like, there's a standard deviation of intelligence. And I think the center of that standard deviation is higher than average society.
- [03:09]
A
But average society is it's demystifying. Yeah, there's a demystification.
- [03:16]
B
And I guess the fact that I use standard deviations suggests really doesn't help.
- [03:19]
A
The case of demystification that I was going.
- [03:21]
B
But the point I was making is there were certainly people in there that I was like, wow. I also run into people in everyday life where I'm like, wow.
- [03:30]
A
Part of what I am so fascinated by is the question of confidence. Right. I consider you a confident person. Anybody who's just listened to you considers you a confident person. Like, you played in the NFL, and at some point you had to reckon with the fact that you are not a Hall of Famer.
- [03:54]
B
The. The business school experience for me has been. Was a turning point in my life. And I bring up business school often, not because it's cool to say I went to Harvard. Although when I'm with my fancy, rich white neighbors, I do drop it on them every time, because most time they're just like, oh, oh, the football player is here. And like, yeah, I am the football player. But I also am incredibly insecure about the fact that you think I got to this neighborhood because I can tackle. Yes, it's true. That's why I'm here. That's why my kids can't afford to go to this school without scholarships, and that's why my house is on the same street as yours. And I think that sometimes they believe that theirs is there because they are smart and capable. And my belief is you probably are. But also, there are some other connections in most places. But anyway, the point is, I was and always have been hyper competitive from the time, which, like you would expect of an athlete from the time I was a kid all the way through life. And there's a. Always a goal to work towards. And when I was six, I said, I want to be a professional football player. And from then on, it's like, all right, let me reach that next goal.
- [05:09]
A
Your screen name, your AOL screen name is an important detail in your story.
- [05:14]
B
NFL bound 36 was my AOL screen name my freshman year in college because I graduated high school early and went to college for the second half of my senior year. And they gave me number 36, but I wasn't aware that that's ugly. I changed the six in training camp once they got rid of the riff raff.
- [05:33]
A
The fact that you called your shot that early, branded yourself as such.
- [05:41]
B
Yeah.
- [05:42]
A
Speaks to.
- [05:42]
B
It was earlier than that, actually. My brother, we were on Black Planet in high school.
- [05:48]
A
Message board.
- [05:49]
B
Yeah. I mean, no, it's Like a social media. Black Planet was like MySpace before MySpace.
- [05:55]
A
I should say that I've not logged into Black Planet.
- [05:57]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't a message board. It was like a social. It was original MySpace. But I don't know, we came up with it and y' all took it and we didn't get nothing for it. It's the way of the world, or the way of this world at least. But anyway, so you had to have a screen name.
- [06:13]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [06:14]
B
And I had a picture of myself and like playing some music in the background. A picture of myself with a book bag on in shorts in front of Disney World with my, my little high school abs and my name was just NFL Bounds.
- [06:30]
A
Oh my God, you were that guy.
- [06:32]
B
Yeah. Somebody could probably find that. It's probably incredible.
- [06:34]
A
We're gonna find this. We're gonna find this. We're go to the Internet Archive, the Wayback Machine.
- [06:38]
B
I'm put it on trapping since a young age. Really have trap, trap, trapping.
- [06:43]
A
But, but you prophesied this. You fulfilled your own self prophecy in a way that is in defiance of just like any standard probability. Right. Like you beat odds to do.
- [06:56]
B
The thing is everybody who's listening to this already subscribed to my podcast, the Dominique Foxford Show. Thank you. Since we're talking about media and our egos and how it's all wrapped up in it, I can't have you passing me and subscriptions www.pablo.show no, don't do that one, do mine.
- [07:13]
A
I'm gonna start advertising promoting on Black Planet. You start a burner account.
- [07:17]
B
I wonder. Yeah, I'm surprised you haven't googled it already. But anyway, I was explaining what happened at business school by pointing out that I always was competitive every step of the way. And it was from the time I was a kid. I remember losing. You know, we had field day and stuff in elementary school. I remember being in the third grade and losing the race and we would like. I, I lost the race to the fifth grader, which I had to cry and I was upset, but it wasn't a big deal because it was like he's a fifth grader. And then Wayne, I forgot his last name. Light skinned kid named Wayne beat me in a race the next year and he was in the third grade. I that still, it is very obvious. It ate me up. I, I had a crush on Chanel Knox. She was a really good basketball player, but I didn't have the confidence to let her know I had a crush on her because I lost the Race. Like the plan was to holla at Chanel after I won the race. I lost the race. She deserved better than that.
- [08:22]
A
What are you. After losing?
- [08:23]
B
Cooked his ass in the fifth grade. Cooked him.
- [08:25]
A
But wait, wait, wait, wait. So you have to exact revenge because you lost this race, but in the aftermath of the race, I want you to describe what it was that you were reckoning with.
- [08:37]
B
I lost. I cried. You cry when you lose when you're a kid or when you're as caught up in. Because it was. I guess you're asking a good question. That allows me to turn this into a much more cinematic moment that I'm not sure that it was, but we will anyway. I was losing my identity, Pablo, and I was losing. I was going to be a professional football player. I was going to be a Heisman Trophy winner. You know what Heisman Trophy winners don't do? Lose races in the fourth grade to Wayne. I lost another race in seventh grade. I think it was.
- [09:12]
A
I'm glad you can finally come out of the closet on this.
- [09:15]
B
Yeah. I've never told anybody this.
- [09:16]
A
You're at a 4, 240 at the combine.
- [09:19]
B
4, 3, 5. Relax. It was actually 4, 3, 2. But Stephen Miller was his name. He. He was a really, really good basketball player. Yeah, it is. He was a really good basketball player, and he was, like, in the AAU circuit, and people thought he was gonna be, like, an NBA player. He was six' three in dunking in middle school, and his stride length got me. I never did. Never did get revenge on Stephen Miller. I cried all the time when we lost. We didn't lose much. My Pop Warner football team, we won a couple of championships. We went all the way down to Disney World and got our asses kicked by the Winston Salem Tiny Vikings. I have not let that go yet either.
- [09:59]
A
Tiny Vikings?
- [10:00]
B
Yeah, they were called the Winston Salem Tiny Vikings.
- [10:02]
A
It's great when your nightmare is definitionally infantilized. In my mind, it's just a bunch of, like, Muppet babies defarming you.
- [10:11]
B
Monsters. Monsters. But, yeah, then we lost in triple overtime to a team from California, which my team, obviously was all black, and the tiny Vikings were all black. This California team. No black kids. That really hurt. It really hurt. I mean, we went off.
- [10:25]
A
It's a different sort of cinema now. I'm realizing.
- [10:27]
B
I mean, there's. We can all pretend like this doesn't exist, but there is. I think Josh Allen was on the Busing with the Boys podcast, and he pointed out that when he sees a white linebacker covering a Slot receiver.
- [10:44]
A
I see what you mean.
- [10:44]
B
Now he makes a milk check, which means we got a mismatch. And we all know that Larry Bird will be offended when they put a white person on him to guard him. Anyway, I'm finally going to get to this point at some point.
- [10:57]
A
Now, I want you to relive every defeat on the way to this point.
- [11:01]
B
They hurt. My freshman year, I was on jv, my high school. I wanted to. My home school was Randallstown. My mom wouldn't let me go there because it was a bad school. We went to a magnet school that only had a football program for two years prior to showing up. And so my first year as a starter on varsity, sophomore, we won one game. Then the next year, next year we went 8 and 2 and final year, I think we were 7 and 3. Anyway, the point I was trying to get to fast forward through all of this is that every step of the way, it's like, very clear in a way that I think is. I didn't recognize as unusual, but was probably unusual for most kids. Where it's like, all right, this needs to be done. Like, I have to do this. And it's very clear motivation, very clear to purpose, and very clear determination. And gave my life purpose in some ways. Like, I didn't drink or smoke until I was 35 years old because I believed that, like, I had a goal and a purpose and. And then the reason why I brought up business school is that was the first time that I stopped and had a moment to reflect and, like, look in the mirror and ask myself, who am I? Or ask myself, what do I want? And there was a specific, touchy feely class where we always have, like, serious quantitative classes and serious business theory and strategy classes. And then there's like, these soft classes that are about your feelings that no one really respects or cares about. That shit worked on me.
- [12:28]
A
What was this class called? Do you remember?
- [12:30]
B
I don't remember. I remember I did not like the professor.
- [12:33]
A
I took, like, Positive Psychology college. Was it as soft as that or. No, it was phrased as something.
- [12:39]
B
No, no, no. They gave it some weird acronym to make it sound cool. But it was really just, let's feel our feelings. Yeah. It was like, let's have therapy with each other and let's feel our feelings. And Clayton. Clayton Christensen was not teaching that class, but he's like a renowned. He's dead now, Rip. But he's a renowned business strategist and writer and whatever. And he was. He contracted a fatal illness. And in that he was motivated to, like, assess life in the same way that he assessed business. And his big walk away from that was like, how will you measure your life? And that was kind of the basis of the class. And it was something I had never considered because, like, I don't need a life scoreboard. Like, I have an actual scoreboard. Like, how much money will I get?
- [13:26]
A
The one thing you had was clarity of scoreboard.
- [13:29]
B
Right. And so, like, when I. Even though I stepped away from football, it was clear, oh, now I will become a CEO. Now go to business school. I'll be the best at business school and among the best at business school. And then I'll start a company or I'll work at a company and I'll work my way up, and I will. Or I'll invest. Like, I honestly said to my wife and family and everybody that I was going to take the millions I made playing football and turn it into hundreds of millions.
- [13:59]
A
You were now billionaire bound.
- [14:02]
B
Yeah.
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A
That was your new street name.
- [14:03]
B
These mothers, like, they. All right. Like, they. I mean, I could do that, but, yeah. So this class was the first time that I was like, oh, okay, let me think about this. What else do I want? And so out of business school, the NBA PA Fired their executive director. The Basketball Players association fired their executive director, Billy Hunter, who was a former NFL cornerback. So obviously they want to get another cornerback. But. So I was a candidate for that job. I was, I don't know, 30. And so I remember having interviews with Chris Paul and Andre Iguodala and Steph.
- [14:45]
A
Curry, and I didn't know you interviewed for the executive director job.
- [14:49]
B
Yeah, I mean, I made it all the way to the finalists, and I didn't know this. Yeah. The reason why. I mean, the reason I was given for why I didn't get it was because I'm just too young. But they liked me a lot. And so when they hired Michelle Roberts, they introduced us, and it was like, we really think that you should hire him. I met her. She liked me. She hired me. I moved to New York. My wife got pregnant with our third child. I worked there for a year, but I was like, we can't do this anymore. I gotta go back home because this isn't working for my family. Yep. All right, we can't do this. I quit. I came home while they were at school. It was the first time in my life where I was like, I don't have, like, a clear direction. Like, I'm not working towards something. I'm not working towards being the best Executive director or being the best chief operating officer. I'm not working towards getting to business school. I'm not working towards winning a championship or getting my next contract. I was like, I'm here. Am I gonna do what do I. And then that's when those classes started to, like, ring in my head. Like, you have a luxury and that you've made enough money to live comfortably. And the clarity that comes from needing to pay your rent is a different type of clarity. And while it sucks, there is some reward to it where you got purpose, you got drive, you know, like there's something that you're like, hey, I got to get up and do this. And as much as it sucks, there is.
- [16:17]
A
There's a clarity of mission.
- [16:18]
B
Right. And I was at home, like that clarity of mission I don't have anymore. And then it's like, so then what motivates you? You already. And I remember thinking my entire career post, football sucks for a lot of players. It's not going to suck for me. I'm the smart football player. I wrote a weekly column. I'm smarter than all of them. I'm going to be all right. But it's transition is what it is. Because I didn't miss football. I didn't want to be playing football, but I was in a transition. And it's like, it's like puberty or it's like midlife crisis. It's like retiring from your job. It's all those points. It's like going to a new school. It's all those points of transition.
- [17:03]
A
You're looking for a new mythology.
- [17:06]
B
Yeah.
- [17:07]
A
To commit to a new story, to tell yourself that you believe that you can actually make again into reality.
- [17:12]
B
Yeah. And it's like, it's the purpose, it's the reason to get the up. It's the reason to work, it's the reason to show up. It's the reason to do everything. And when I was still playing, my wife was in Harvard Law School. And I concocted in my mind, you know what? I'm going to be a stay at home dad. Before the whole business school thing, it was like, she's going to this fancy law school. She's obviously going to like go make a bunch of money and I'll be a stay at home dad. She was finishing up law school and studying for the bar the year that our first daughter was being born. And so I. And my ACL was being torn, or my ACL was torn and we had a lockout. So I was home a lot. And I was a stay at home dad with an infant. That wasn't gonna be me. Cause like the competitiveness in me, I hadn't figured out that I needed to do something about it. And I would wake up and be like, but you're not walking yet. Let's work on walking. Like, I'm not that type of dad anymore. I've come around. But like figuring out that transition and finding an outlet for all of these urges or also like making a decision that it's like trying to diet or trying to lose weight where it's like, I know I'm not supposed to eat this. And that's how I felt. It's like, I know I'm not supposed to be this competitive monster, but. But it's like it's innate. The same way you feel when you walk past a donut shop. I feel when I, when I see anything. Let's crush that thing.
- [18:43]
A
If you have diabetes of the ego, if your blood sugar, if your competitiveness, your sense of self is too rich and you know that you're supposed to get off of the stuff that is making you eventually to torture this metaphor, like eventually amputate some stuff to save.
- [19:02]
B
Your life, kill that metaphor.
- [19:04]
A
Right?
- [19:04]
B
You torture the out that metaphor.
- [19:06]
A
I'm possibly pre diabetic, so I thought about that. But the point is the competitiveness that you have inside of you and you're looking for an outlet and the outlet becomes at first your kid. And then you realize, okay, that's not healthy either. So then it turns to eventually the thing we started talking about, which was what we are doing here in some form, right? And competition in a field that is not explicitly scoreboard driven is a fascinating thing. And I think about this all of the time. Because the way I think to do this job the best, what I've learned is that I think competition is both healthy and necessary and, and also one of the most toxic, corrosive things when your job is actually teamwork, that's, I mean, confusing your teammates for your enemies, confusing your goal for, I don't know, just an insecurity around the story you want to be told.
- [20:07]
B
Trade offs. If I were to write a book, it would be another book. Cause I already did that once.
- [20:11]
A
That's right.
- [20:12]
B
But if I were to write a book, it would be one page and it would say trade offs. Because I think that that is the best thing. And that again came from time at business school is understanding that in through business strategy you can't have it all. And if you are deciding to be A fast moving company, there will be mistakes made. Trade offs. When I get stressed out about something that my wife isn't doing, I accept. I try to take the time before I bring it to her and mad about it. I try to take the time to think about all the great things that are also directly connected to the. The thing that she's doing that annoys me. And it's like, well, I do love that. So I got to take this and I say that I try to do that in all of aspects of my life. It's been one of the healthier practices that if I were to share it with someone again in my book, my one page, one sentence, two word book, or actually it's one word, trade offs is. Yeah, they're always trade offs. All right.
- [21:22]
A
A lot more words from Dominique after the break. Oh, this is where I wanted to eventually get to is the idea that your story you're telling yourself now is not the story of a person or who is conceivably a hall of famer, billionaire, best person in this field. And it's not mine either. And so the question then becomes, well, what are we telling ourselves that gives us some sense that our purpose is correct, that we are living our lives in a way that does not undersell our talents, our ambitions? We talk about this, Dominique. We talk about this all the time. Like you and I, I would say, have a conversation that is one of the more vulnerable genres of conversation that I ever engage in, which is the whole. By us sitting at this table, are we wasting the potential that someone else believed in that we decided to discard because we chose a path of, let's just call it less resistance to be less charitable. Right. That's the. That keeps me up at night. Should I be in an alternate world?
- [22:39]
B
Yeah.
- [22:40]
A
A Supreme Court clerk, like a lot of my friends.
- [22:43]
B
Really be nice right now.
- [22:44]
A
Should I be a presidential candidate like some of my classmates?
- [22:48]
B
Yeah.
- [22:48]
A
And I'm not saying that I want to do that. I don't. You don't know. I don't walk around harboring delusions of I need to be running the world, but it just makes me wonder if I am living correctly.
- [22:59]
B
And we know from us both being at these places, we know that. That we were on those specific tracks.
- [23:07]
A
Yes.
- [23:08]
B
And there might have been some randomness or luck that would have put us wherever we wanted to go, but we knew that if we would have just stayed straight on the track, everything would have worked out and we possibly would have been more like fulfilled and proud of what you're doing. And that's the thing I struggle with the most that I've started to wrap my head around it again, I bring up the trade offs. It's like, yeah, I gave up that job at the Players association, which like Michelle Roberts stepped down a couple years ago. I would have been in line to take that over the NFL Players Association. Damore Smith left the. Or hasn't left the union official yet, but he saluted job executive director role was available. If I wouldn't have take. If I wouldn't have been in line to take the basketball job, obviously I would have been in line like I was president. Like, I'd been in line for. For that job. I could have gone to like a company and work there. I could have like, these are things that I think about and I only think about those in a way that makes me feel upset when I am looking at what I am doing and am not proud of it. But I also remind myself, you know what trade offs, like, I don't have to deal with that stress. I don't. And that's like, that's part of the stories you're telling yourself is because there's a version of me that's like, that's a cop out. You're copping out. You should be completely maximizing everything that you've had access to.
- [24:39]
A
Yeah, you're letting Wayne beat you in a race again. But that's what I. That's how I process this too. And I look, on some level, this is all deeply egotistical because the idea is you have untapped potential that is special. And we are reckoning with that specialness.
- [24:58]
B
I'm sorry. It's not just it. It's not just that. It's that we got into. We got into the inner circle and then decided to get out.
- [25:07]
A
We saw what it was like inside the room with the locked doors with a real expensive ass mahogany.
- [25:13]
B
And we saw the map and.
- [25:15]
A
And we decided to enter this room.
- [25:17]
B
And we were like, no, let's not. And for me at least it wasn't a conscious decision, which is why sometimes I feel a little burn of regret because it was like, I'll get back to it eventually. I'll get back to it eventually. Yeah, just the right opportunity. And I just started to accept that I'm not. But I also like one of the things that Dan told me a long time ago that stuck with me. And it's good because it sounds like I'm not proud of what I do, but I am same. And it sounds Like, I wish I should be doing something different, but I don't. These are the thoughts. Like, the same way when you climb to a top of a building, you step out on a balcony, it crosses your mind, what if I jump? You don't actually ever intend to jump. It crosses my mind. What if I'd done something different? And, like, what. I guess that's a bad analogy because we know what would happen if you jump. But, you know, I was trying to think of that thing where no one.
- [26:07]
A
Actually is really considering it, but you're almost morbidly curious. What would it be like if I did the thing I refused to do?
- [26:15]
B
And also, I think for me, it's. It's about confronting insecurity and personal pride, because there are plenty of people. I think it's also about. Again, it goes back to when I go into these school functions or I'm in these circles because my football successes afforded me opportunities to get in circles that my parents didn't even know existed and I was unaware of. And. And, like, I am now in those rooms. And then when we talk about what we're doing, I'm like, but. But I could do what you're doing better. And there's, like, some. And this is just insecurity, but there's values that I'm like, when I look at a lawyer or there's people who work for the State Department and there are people who are politicians or started their own companies and sold it. When I look at them, I have, like, social media insecurity that teen girls have when they're. When they're.
- [27:18]
A
When there's like, I am body dysmorphia. Yeah.
- [27:20]
B
There's like, yeah, they look at all these Photoshopped thirst traps and they're like, I should be prettier. I look at all of these people and was like, but I have to tell you that I talk about sports for a living when I know that I'm more capable or as capable. So that's part of it. And like, confronting that and recognizing. And also I think understanding that what we do has value, because the weird thing is, no one is judging me. They all think I'm cool. You know, like all these parents or all these people that are in these communities, like, maybe they think I'm dumb, but they think I'm cool. You know, they're like, you're on tv. You played in football. All their kids think I'm cool. But I still. It's not about the way that they look at me. It's the way that I look at myself when I have to talk to them.
- [28:09]
A
Yes, yes. And so now what I'm wondering is, what is the thing that we're chasing?
- [28:16]
B
Yeah.
- [28:16]
A
Right. Like, let's say we have peace with this job being something that is, as a net. Net concern, worth it. And I think it's obvious. Right. A lot of people, I think, are probably listening to this and saying to themselves, you guys have the jobs that I want on some level. Like, you guys have fun professionally, it seems. You can talk about yourselves endlessly, it.
- [28:37]
B
Seems, and make it entertaining and.
- [28:39]
A
And make it good.
- [28:40]
B
Yeah. I mean, it seems. DOMINIQUE FOX SHOW subscribe to that thing, rate, review it, all that stuff. Get my numbers up so I don't lose my job at the next time that people get fired.
- [28:50]
A
But what I mentioned before about positive psychology is. Is significant here because what I'm really talking about is, like, happiness. Yeah, right. Like, are we in agreement that that's the thing we're actually trying to maximize? Cut through all of the bull, the metaphors, all of the scoreboards and the clarity and the missions and the rooms that we've all constructed. It really is about happiness, isn't it? Or are you going to push back on that?
- [29:15]
B
I mean, isn't that what everybody's trying to get? And I think I talk like this a lot because I think like this a lot in, like, philosophical ways that make me insecure to talk to people about because it sounds like I think I'm smarter than everyone else or it also sounds like I'm high or whatever.
- [29:37]
A
This is basically the RSS feed description of my show. But.
- [29:41]
B
But it's like, we believe. I had this conversation with Dan and some people in the shipping container not too long ago because I was listening to the show and they were talking about what celebrity's life they'd like to have.
- [29:57]
A
Yes.
- [29:58]
B
And I was.
- [29:59]
A
David Sampson said, Dan.
- [30:01]
B
Yeah. Wow.
- [30:06]
A
We laugh. But we're also in Dan's studio, kind of trying to do what Dan does ourselves.
- [30:11]
B
Yeah. But we also know Dan very, very, very personally.
- [30:16]
A
Give me the picks that you respected.
- [30:18]
B
None of them, I think. I don't remember the picks, honestly. But I think the reason why I brought that up is because the way that they talk about what they're looking for is the way that you would. I want a life of little friction. And this is about your point of happiness is I don't know that we know what we need. And I would challenge everyone who's listening and challenge you to do the same thing. And is. I don't know if think about when you were your happiest is the right way to put this. Because that's hard to do. But if you can, go right ahead. And my guess is that the story that you would tell is in relation to struggle. And it may be during the struggle, it may be immediately after the struggle, it may be right before the struggle. And so the interesting thing that I found in that time when I had nothing to do didn't. It wasn't great. And if you ask me when I was the saddest or closest to depression, again, it was around the struggle when.
- [31:31]
A
You had the freedom to do whatever.
- [31:33]
B
I didn't have the clarity of purpose. I don't know that I was sad, but I was like. Lost, I think is the right word.
- [31:41]
A
Unmoored.
- [31:42]
B
Yeah. I think I just feel you. And there was. And I get conceptually. Just buy some nice stuff, go on vacation, do whatever. I get that conceptually, but I don't know that we appreciate relativity. If I give you a white piece of paper and I take a black pen and start to write on it, what you're appreciating is in whatever I'm doing. I start to draw or scribble on it. What you're appreciating in whatever I'm doing is the contrast between the white of the paper and the black of the marker or the pen. And then you add more colors and you appreciate different contrasts and different combinations. And I think that when. And I could understand how annoying it is to hear people who. To hear rich people say, money's not the answer to happiness.
- [32:41]
A
I can understand how fundamentally important.
- [32:43]
B
I can understand how ridiculous that sounds. However, you know what? If you just don't have a purpose, you know what it is? It's a white piece of paper. No matter how high you are on a mountain, if there are no dips and no valleys, you just. On a plane.
- [33:04]
A
We'll be right back. This is the other thing you learn when you go into these rooms. Right. To go back to that metaphor, you learn that people are not happy.
- [33:20]
B
Yeah.
- [33:20]
A
The rooms you want to get into as much as they have many benefits and perks and all sorts of crazy. You know, I think.
- [33:28]
B
I mean, all those psychological researches can be problematic. I think most of the research suggests.
- [33:34]
A
Like diminishing returns on happiness when you get to a certain level of income.
- [33:37]
B
That it does matter.
- [33:39]
A
No doubt up to a level.
- [33:40]
B
But once you get past that level, there's diminishing level of returns. And if you like, measure. And while we are all Caught up in this consumer Western culture. There are people in other parts of the world, and probably people in America and in this country, in this part of the world, in the Western Hemisphere, who don't have as much. But the ways that we measure happiness are just as happy or happier.
- [34:06]
A
Yes. And I think about this. Even take money out of it. Right. But take the scarce resource of accomplishment of whatever trophy it is that we are ostensibly chasing. A medal, whatever it is, the distinction, the genius grant. Right. Whatever we think is most validating. Michael Jordan's miserable. Charles Barkley seems thrilled. The game that Charles is playing, I find myself there are people who are Jordan Stans. That's my goat. I am more and more a Charles Barkley guy.
- [34:44]
B
It's interesting.
- [34:45]
A
And I know that he is a bundle of things, too.
- [34:48]
B
I'm not. But I get what he represents. I'm not talking about Charles Barkley's political opinions or anything else.
- [34:54]
A
He has opted out of that competitive frame in a way that has resulted in him having more fun than anybody else who played the game at that elevation. And that, to me, is just like. That's why I joined Metalark.
- [35:11]
B
Yeah.
- [35:12]
A
That is why I am trying to disengage with the standard ways of scorekeeping, is because if I can actually feel, if I can express, if I can genuinely enjoy the shit I'm doing, it feels like I'm actually hacking the game to get to the thing at the center that we're really chasing.
- [35:30]
B
It's funny because when big jobs come up around sports, my name is occasionally still.
- [35:36]
A
Yes. You were a candidate to run the NFL Players Association.
- [35:41]
B
Yeah.
- [35:42]
A
We talked about this in secret when you were contemplating this.
- [35:46]
B
Right.
- [35:46]
A
If I can say that now, this was a forever sort of a job.
- [35:50]
B
You could have asked me first, but it's fine. We can put it out there. It was Pablo Torre show exclusive.
- [35:57]
A
It was. It was a job that you considered because, of course, it is a forever sort of job.
- [36:02]
B
Yeah.
- [36:02]
A
I think a lot about, like, the deathbed test, you know, And I think about this in times of actual grief, but also in times of. Of. Of pressure. I'm trying to figure out, am I handling this moment. Is my anxiety a function of evolutionary adaptation, or is it the opposite? Is it a thing that I need to eliminate to survive? And what I keep on thinking about is how in the end, we're not going to, of course, on our deathbed, worry about, I should have had more viral tweets. But then I think about how if we're concerned about our accomplishments, about greatness of historic achievement. What do you know about William Howard Taft?
- [36:51]
B
Nothing.
- [36:52]
A
Fat stuck in a bathtub.
- [36:56]
B
Is it?
- [36:56]
A
He was the president.
- [36:58]
B
Yeah.
- [36:59]
A
We're going to get like one thing, if that.
- [37:03]
B
Yeah, we're not going to get anything.
- [37:04]
A
That'S the president getting stuck in bathtub. But we're probably going to get a vague echo of a memory occasionally.
- [37:14]
B
This is a. This is where you lose me. I don't care at all about how I'm remembered, honestly. Like, I don't like when my body decomposes and it re enters all of the elements that make me up re enter the earth in some capacity. I don't care at all. Like, I'm not worried about my eulogy. I'm not worried about how many people write stories about me or how many people come to.
- [37:44]
A
So the game, just to be very clear, because this is important context, the game that you're trying to compete in and win as an existential matter is only meaningful insofar as you are there to win it.
- [37:58]
B
Yeah. So you actually care.
- [38:02]
A
I don't think of myself as like, ah, I want to be like Genghis Khan. I want my lineage to survive me. But I do wonder, like, what's the actual value of. Of doing stuff that is supposed to stand the test of time?
- [38:16]
B
Nothing. I don't care. I'm dead. Read my phone. See all this embarrassing stuff. Check out my porn history. Knock yourself out. I'm dead. All the stuff that I care about. All I care about is like, what's happening when I'm here now. And so like me being embarrassed about my lack of accomplishment. Now is a now thing. And I do think like that deathbed test is something that whether it's a coping mechanism or a true thing, I feel like that scoreboard. I feel great about it. I spend so much time with my kids and my family and I spend amount of time that I would not be able. And that's not to say I was a candidate for that NFL PA job. And when they first asked me to be a candidate, I told him no.
- [39:03]
A
Because there are trade offs.
- [39:04]
B
Yeah, because there are trade offs. I'm not interested in. In that. And then I gave it more thought and honestly I couldn't get it out of my head because there's only been one thing in my life that I've ever felt passionate about and it's sports unions. Like, outside of being an athlete, the one thing that I felt professionally passionate about is sports unions. And like, people had called me many a times over the years complaining about Damor Smith agents or whatever is like, you should challenge him. And I was like, no, I won't do that. Like, if the players want to get him out, they'll get him out. If he wants to retire, he retire. I'm not doing no backdoor. And all the sneaky political stuff that people have done. It's like, I refuse to participate any of that. But I then was like, all right, this opportunity is here. This is one. This is a deathbed regret. This was the first time that on a professional side, I would look up and be like, man, I should have done that. And so I won't have that regret now because I did not make it to the. I got interviewed.
- [40:15]
A
That is insane. That's my take.
- [40:17]
B
Yeah, you can have your take. I don't. I mean, as someone who was on executive committee in this process before and whose decision making in that time was considered insane, I refuse to participate in that. Like, I obviously think whatever, but because I'm biased towards me and I could come up with all the reasons why I think I would have been great at that job. I think that they chose the person that they thought was right. And, like, I have regrets about the interview that I did with the executive committee because I leaned in on the stuff that I told you that. That I had learned from my time at the NBA Players Association. And my story about the NBA Players association was I was coming fresh out of business school, and I was super business consultant guy, and I would create the most complicated and elaborate. I mean, not complicated is the wrong word. Elaborate plans and strategies for everything that we needed to do, and then present them in our. In our C suite meetings. Like, all the executive Present them in the meetings, and no one could poke holes in them. They were outstanding, but nobody believed in them, so we didn't do them. And I would be furious. And I'd complain to my wife, complain to my friends, like, this is what we need to do. And to the point that I was talking about before, that none of that matters. I'd rather, to use a sports analogy, is I'd rather have a mediocre game plan that everyone believes in and then have a flawless game plan that no one is on board with. And my mistake was my ego is like, let me bring this flawless game plan. It doesn't work nearly as well as constructing a game plan with people. And I think that I regret. I don't regret, but I made the point that I can sit here and go through all this stuff, and I can wow you with my understanding of the league. I can wow you. My understanding of the union. I can wow you with my understanding of the legal strategies that we can use. I can wow you with all these strategies. And anybody who comes in here, I can probably do better at this than any of them. I worked at the basketball union. I was the president of this union.
- [42:40]
A
Executive paralleled vantage point.
- [42:42]
B
And I went to business school. I can can do all that. Trust me, I can do all that. But let me explain something to you that does not matter even more in this case than in most businesses. Because we are outmatched as a union against the league. No matter what people say we're outmatched. It's uphill battle. It's a David Goliath situation. The only strength that we have is in our solidarity. And the solidarity in my view comes from people on the outside, not sniping. Which is why I will never do that. And I won't do it now, I won't do it in the future. No matter what the hell the new executive director does or what anybody in the union does. You won't find me on the outside saying any bullshit.
- [43:25]
A
I'll snipe.
- [43:26]
B
You can snipe all you want, but I will never. But what we have is the solidarity. And the solidarity is all about relationships. And that was my point, was like whatever you do, whoever you hire, their number one purpose needs to be building relationships outside in the locker rooms. Which is why the former player thing, I think does have some value in building connections amongst the players. Because it's a lot easier to cross a picket line or it's a lot easier to be weak when you don't know anybody, when you don't know who's relying on you, when you don't have, like, those are the things that matter. So again, no matter what I. Like I said, I don't regret it. But I think where part of what I lost in that, in that presentation was not demonstrating that I understand it, but in my view, you don't need to understand it. It doesn't matter. What matters is can we be strong? And you build strength in part by delivering that you understand all of this, but also empowering people to develop their own strategies and plans because they will believe in that more often.
- [44:36]
A
I should say that while we were discussing this off the record for a while, when you were thinking about doing this job, that I also had a conflict of interest because I was in favor of, of course, like supporting my friend, my brother.
- [44:54]
B
You are not in favor.
- [44:55]
A
Yes, I will snipe at all of the people who got this job, because obviously you're the most deserving person.
- [44:59]
B
I genuinely believe that only one person got the job. You can't snipe at all. The got the job.
- [45:03]
A
But I'm also very glad you did not get the job.
- [45:07]
B
Hater. You're not my friend.
- [45:10]
A
I needed you at this table. You would have left this business. You would have left this business behind, and I would be here coping by myself. So I am glad that you did not get to fulfill this one deathbed mission that you would have enjoyed. Because this means that I can make jokes about porn history.
- [45:31]
B
God's plan. I'll just say it. It's God's plan.
- [45:35]
A
I just want people to know that you cannot look at my porn history when I die.
- [45:38]
B
Yeah, they can.
- [45:39]
A
Look, Dominique is a. Is a. Is an open book. I am.
- [45:42]
B
Oh, no, the book's closed until I'm dead. When I'm dead, I don't give a damn. Look, whatever you want.
- [45:47]
A
I'm just on incognito mode. Good luck finding my history.
- [45:50]
B
I have convinced myself that I won't. I mean, I'm sure the incognito mode. You believe that nonsense?
- [45:55]
A
Okay, are you an incognito mode truther?
- [45:58]
B
I'm not an incognito mode truther, but yeah, I guess I am. You think that they don't have a history of your searches anywhere?
- [46:07]
A
This is the story I need to tell myself about myself.
- [46:14]
B
Now. You gotta think about where to put this show. Cause it's gonna be your best show ever.
- [46:18]
A
Obviously, I mean, when I find your Black Planet profile.
- [46:23]
B
I shouldn't have told you that.
- [46:24]
A
Gonna be a whole, like, video treatment.
- [46:26]
B
Shouldn't have told you that.
- [46:28]
A
Thank you for eventually letting me see your porn history.
- [46:32]
B
Is that a metaphor or just literal?
- [46:34]
A
It's both.
- [46:36]
B
All right, bye, Pablo.
- [46:37]
A
Love you, buddy. So, sitting down at my keyboard here at the end of today's show, I do want to admit that I need help. I need help finding Dominique Foxworth's old Black Planet profile. Cortez and I have spent an embarrassing amount of time scouring the Internet for it. No luck. And so if anybody has seen the profile page of NFLbound36, please alert us here at. Pablo Torre finds out immediately. But what I really found out today, most importantly, is truly disturbingly simple. I should probably stop trusting incognito Mode while privately browsing the Internet. This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production and I'll talk to you next time.