The Room: Behind Closed Doors of the Messiest Ritual in Sports

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode: The Room: Behind Closed Doors of the Messiest Ritual in Sports

Host: Pablo Torre
Guests: David Sampson (Former Marlins President), Dan Uggla (former MLB 2B), Cody Ross (former MLB OF)
Date: February 6, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Pablo Torre explores one of the messiest and most awkward rituals in all of sports: Major League Baseball’s salary arbitration process. Through candid, funny, and often poignant storytelling, Pablo is joined by former Miami Marlins President David Sampson, and two former Marlins standouts, Dan Uggla and Cody Ross, all of whom survived “the room” — the private, high-stakes confrontation between player and team over how much a ballplayer is worth. Together, they illuminate the strange psychology, business hardball, and black comedy of an off-field institution that every MLB player dreads.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The Waiver Wire & Relationships

• The episode opens with playful banter about wealth and backgrounds between Uggla, Ross, and Sampson, grounding listeners in the unique personalities at play (00:29–02:13).
• Cody Ross recounts how he became a Marlin via a waiver claim for just $1, highlighting the randomness and business calculation in player movement.

  “I can’t thank the Giants enough for giving me the opportunity to come over for $1. For a dollar.” — Cody Ross (01:25)

• Sampson reflects on always being honest with players despite the reputation of front offices to treat them as “chattel” (05:20).

2. What Is Salary Arbitration – and Why Is It So Weird?

• Pablo lays out the stakes and the unique MLB ritual: a literal legal proceeding where team and player face off before three arbitrators who then pick a side — no in-betweens allowed (05:54–09:06).

  “They put that team and that player in the same room before a tribunal of judges... and everyone proceeds to argue about how much that player sucks in front of that player.” — Pablo Torre (06:39)

• The process is infamous for poisoning relationships and some teams pay to avoid it. The Marlins, led by Sampson, were eager participants.
• The stakes are real: Uggla recalls being on the verge of setting an arbitration salary record (07:54), with about $1M separating the sides.

3. The Mechanics & Psychology of “The Room”

• How it works:
  • Player (with 3-6 years of service) and team propose salary numbers; if they can’t agree, it’s off to arbitration.
  • Both sides present comps and statistics to bolster their arguments.
• The vibe:
  • It’s formal: suits, a rectangular conference table, arbiters who never betray their thoughts (14:02, 15:01).
  • Players describe the deeply uncomfortable experience of hearing their team (and sometimes friends) argue they’re not as good as they think (14:15).

  “They bring out some of the craziest stats you’ve ever seen in your life about how bad you are… and compared to some guy from 1973.” — Cody Ross (10:26)

4. Strategies, Hardball, and Absurdities

• Teams use “comps” (comparable players) relentlessly, sometimes comparing players to subpar or bench guys to lower the baseline.
• Sampson’s approach: “I couldn’t disagree more with the Giants president, baseball ops... you’ve got to be willing to go face your players, and you’ve got to be honest” (12:37).
• Arbitration is theater, strategy, and a little bit cruel. There’s a sense of psychological warfare:

  “Arbitration is a manifestation of the ultimate breaking down of an athlete…by showing that he’s something he doesn’t want to believe he is.” — David Sampson (23:05)

• Star comparisons: Uggla notes the bittersweet honor of being compared to stars like Albert Pujols in the negative space of arbitration (28:07).

5. Emotional Fallout & Relationship Resilience

• Players admit the room can be rough, but “embrace it, enjoy it—it means you’re good that you’re going through this” (27:11).
• Both Ross and Uggla describe how honesty and camaraderie with Sampson kept bad blood at bay, despite brutal honesty in the arbitration room (41:45, 43:16).
• For others, notably players with less personal relationships or recent acquisitions, the process could feel cold and adversarial (29:23).

6. Tactics, Arbitrator Dynamics, and “Possession Arrow”

• Arbitrators are neutral—and chosen by both the league and the players’ union—but both sides “fire” ones they think are biased.
• Sampson is blunt about the system’s lack of transparency and how arbitrators sometimes split decisions just to keep both sides happy (“Possession Arrow”), not necessarily on the merits (19:15, 20:01).
• The “possession arrow” logic means after several wins for one side, the next is likely to go to the other.

  “100%... possession arrow in baseball arbitration is a real thing.” — David Sampson (19:52)

7. Outcomes: The Winners and the Aftermath

• Both Uggla and Ross beat Sampson and the Marlins in arbitration:

  “David Sampson’s official record in the room against Cody Ross and Dan Uggla is 0 and 2.” — Pablo Torre (34:04)

• Uggla recalls literal celebration:

  “Jumping on the bed, screaming and yelling… popping champagne—it was party time, man.” — Dan Uggla (35:02)

• Ross savors finally being a “multimillionaire” (35:42).

8. The Broader Impact & Final Insights

• Individual arbitration wins, like Uggla’s, become key comparables that shift the market and benefit other players (38:22).

  “Dan Ugla’s win cost the industry so much, much more… everyone who wanted to compare themselves to Dan Uggla, they were comparing themselves to a 5.35 number instead of a 4.4.” — David Sampson (38:22)

• The Yankees’ and others’ avoidance of arbitration can backfire, inflating market salaries (37:44).
• In the end, good relationships survive arbitration, but neither Ross nor Uggla stayed—once they got expensive, they were off the Marlins (43:48).
• Sampson’s core philosophy:

  “You have to have players outperform their contracts if you’re going to have a winning team… or you’re not going to win.” — David Sampson (39:18)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the brutal honesty in arbitration:

  “I just remember, like certain stats that they threw out and I was like, oh, man. Like, that is below the belt.” — Cody Ross (25:12)

• On the awkward, surreal vibe:

  "Arbitration is where you would not want to challenge David Sampson, a financially savvy, detail obsessed team president with a law degree…" — Pablo Torre (34:04)

• On the emotional impact:

  “My agents are, like, pumping me up, and then we go in, and then they present their case, and I’m like, oh, I’m not as good as I thought.” — Dan Uggla (14:15)

• On how the process didn't ruin friendships:

  “Anytime you go through something like that and you’re still friends…it makes you strong. But we were already so strong.” — Dan Uggla (41:45)

• Business vs. Friendship:

  "There was such a foundation of like, friendship, business, friendship, business relationship…We had built that foundation." — Dan Uggla (41:45)
  "He was completely honest with us, whether we were good or bad. And that is exactly what you want as a player." — Cody Ross (42:23)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:29 – Banter & context-setting for Ross’s and Uggla’s time with Marlins
• 05:54 – 09:06 – Salary arbitration explained & stakes for Ross/Uggla
• 12:37 – David Sampson’s “face your players” philosophy on arbitration
• 14:15 – Players share pre-arbitration nerves and expectations
• 19:15 – Arbitrator dynamics, “possession arrow”, and inherent system quirks
• 23:05 – Psychological trench warfare in the room, Sampson breaks it down
• 25:12 – Players on the emotional impact of hearing themselves devalued
• 34:04 – The verdict! Both Ross and Uggla defeat Sampson in arbitration
• 35:02; 35:42 – How Ross/Uggla received the news and celebrated
• 38:22 – Broader industry impact of a single player’s arbitration win
• 41:45 – Final reflections: how the process tested and ultimately reaffirmed player-team relationships

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Tone and Feel

This episode stands out for its unique blend of humor, self-deprecation, and genuine warmth—almost a sitcom energy layered over deeply insightful business talk and personal confession. The participants, including notorious dealmaker Sampson, let their guards down, turning a dry labor dispute into a human story about relationships, ego, money, and growing up in the world of baseball.

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Conclusion

This episode is a must-listen for fans curious about baseball’s inner workings, labor negotiations, and the strange alchemy of business and personal relationships in sports. Through sharp anecdotes and unfiltered honesty, Pablo Torre and his guests demystify arbitration — not just as a financial mechanism, but as one of the weirdest, most emotionally fraught rituals in any American workplace.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[David Sampson]

Listen. Don't. Don't threaten me with that.

[Pablo Torre]

Right after this ad, you're listening to Giraffe Kings.

[David Sampson]

Look at his background. I like Cody's background better than Uggs.

[Dan Uggla]

You don't like the. You don't like the wood shades? You don't like the wood shades?

[David Sampson]

That's the best you got for $60 million? You got wood shades?

[Dan Uggla]

Hey, we're budgeting over here. Budgeting, budgeting.

[Cody Ross]

Can you get. Can you. Can you get in front of your World Series jersey?

[Dan Uggla]

That's right, dog. That's in a safety deposit box. Safety deposit box.

[David Sampson]

He went for the money. Cody, you went for love and fame and World Series and LCS MVPs. You're welcome, by the way.

[Cody Ross]

Thank you. Thank you.

[David Sampson]

The nicest gift I ever gave you.

[Cody Ross]

That's the truth.

[David Sampson]

Getting rid of your ass.

[Cody Ross]

You know, you really embody this team.

[Dan Uggla]

What it's all about.

[Cody Ross]

I mean, Florida didn't want you. They put you on waivers. This team put a claim in on you. And here you are, the NLCS mvp. Yeah, I can't thank the Giants enough for giving me the opportunity to come over for $1. For a dollar.

[David Sampson]

It was a dollar. It was a waiver claim. And the Giants called us after they claimed him and said, you're not going to let him go to us. Right? We were just blocking him from going to any of our competitors. And we were like, we're not paying Cody the rest of the year. We're letting him go. Larry Bear called the commissioner to try to interject because they didn't want to take on his money. And we were like, sorry, if you're going to play the game of trying to block your competitors from getting a player, you have to risk taking the player. And we called Cody into the office and said, cody, love you, man, but you've been claimed by the Giants. Go speak to the traveling secretary because.

[Cody Ross]

You'Re getting on a plane your ass out.

[David Sampson]

We had cleaned out his locker. We had done everything.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to explain one of the craziest rituals processes in sports to people that have no idea what it is. And in the course of doing that, we will learn about your relationship. But I do want to just, like, establish some basics. So at the beginning here, because there are now three voices that are not mine on this episode, could you say your name when you played for the Marlins? And maybe an adjective that best describes your former boss, David Sampson?

[Dan Uggla]

My name is Dan Ugla. I tell everybody that comes in here, this is the house that David and Jeffrey Laurie built. They're like, david who? I was like, david Sampson. I'm like, oh, I know who that is.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Dan Uggla]

Outspoken is actually a very good adjective, but, you know, for lack of a better vocabulary, that's kind of what I'm going with right now.

[Cody Ross]

Cody Ross played for The Marlins from 2006 to 2010. First of all, Dan, you're making me dizzy, bro. You're, like, moving around.

[Dan Uggla]

I know.

[Cody Ross]

I mean, I'm like. I had too much wine last night maybe. I don't know. But you're. You gotta, like, stay still for a second. You're so fidgety.

[Dan Uggla]

Let me get a. Let me get a. I know. I was gonna say, I do have an office.

[Cody Ross]

Do you have an office in your 15, 000 square foot house?

[Dan Uggla]

Here we go. Let me get some. I need a place to put this thing.

[Cody Ross]

I mean, jeez Louise.

[Dan Uggla]

There we go. Here we go.

[Cody Ross]

I remember my first Zoom Ads.

[Pablo Torre]

Horrible.

[Dan Uggla]

All right. It's so unprepared. Here we go.

[Cody Ross]

That's what Josh Johnson did. Hanley's homer and triple.

[Dan Uggla]

Dan UG did you.

[Cody Ross]

His name is Dan ug.

[Dan Uggla]

Wow. There.

[Cody Ross]

There.

[Pablo Torre]

There's the guy I drafted in fantasy baseball. There he is.

[Cody Ross]

Anyways, back to me. Yeah. So 2006, 2010. Never really got an opportunity at the first few places that I was at, and then got to the Marlins and had an incredible opportunity. I remember being with the Dodgers in spring training in 06, and I was just praying. I'm like, please, like, let me go to the Marlins. I see what they're doing over there. They're like. They're. They're young and they're. They're enthusiastic and. Anyways, yeah, so I guess the. I always say this to people about David. I say he's the second best president I've ever had in my life. All right, this is where you ask first. Everybody else is tied for first.

[David Sampson]

I was. I always was honest with the players, and I think that that's something that most front offices just aren't. And the tendency is to just treat players like chattel and to not involve them in anything and to be robotic and to not be human. And while people accuse me of that, I actually, with these guys and with many other of our players, I just wanted you guys always to know where you stood and where we stood and that we always knew that there was business and then there was personal.

[Pablo Torre]

So this is where I need to mention that this is going to be an episode about the insanely personal business of Major League Baseball as revealed through the arcane ritual of a thing known as salary arbitration, which is happening across the sport right now, even during super bowl week as we speak. And if the term salary arbitration sounds boring to you, I get it, because I used to think that way too. But then I found out that the NFL and the NBA refuse to operate the way Major League Baseball does. And for good reason, it turns out. Because when a baseball team and an arbitration eligible player disagree on what sort of a raise that player deserves, the sport does something truly mind blowing. They put that team and that player in the same room before a tribunal of judges and they close the doors, at which point everyone proceeds to argue before said judges about how much that player sucks in front of that player. Now, everything that's said is kept off the record, obviously completely secret. And in fact, salary arbitration is so infamous for poisoning work relationships headed into spring training that some franchises in baseball will simply pay a premium in order to avoid ever having to go through this mess at all. Luckily, however, I found the one team president who apparently cannot wait to talk about that mess. And the same is true of his journeyman outfielder Cody Ross and his all star second baseman, Dan Ugla. What was at stake for you, Dan? Again, I know you as the guy on my fantasy baseball team, power hitter guy hitting 30 home runs. And then in 2009, what's at stake for you ahead of arbitration as you remember it?

[Dan Uggla]

I was actually on the verge of possibly setting the record for the most money ever an arbitration received by. I don't know if it was like all players or just second baseman, I can't remember. But I know that that was, it.

[David Sampson]

Was old white power hitters because.

[Cody Ross]

An.

[David Sampson]

Elite club, very elite.

[Dan Uggla]

Right. So I, I think, I think so. I think that mark was set at like 5, 5 or somewhere right around there. And I think, David, I think I believe you guys were around 4, 2, 4, 1. And it was.

[Pablo Torre]

Hold on. It's funny, it's funny that you guys are so rich that I need to clarify the hundreds of thousands of difference here. 535 was what Dan wanted. 4, 4 in millions we're talking about is what our friend David was willing to pay you.

[Dan Uggla]

That's right, that's right. So that's a pretty big.

[Cody Ross]

So you're at 4, 4.

[David Sampson]

If you lose, just. If you lose arbitration, the player gets what the team is offering, which would have been $4.4 million. And if you win, Dan would get 5.35. There's no middle. There's no splitting the baby. The arbitrators either choose to side with the player or, or the team.

[Pablo Torre]

Right, right, right.

[Dan Uggla]

And by, by getting to that point, you know, we obviously, there's a big gap between negotiations and that we couldn't come to, so. So that's how you end up in the room.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. But Cody, this is to say that this is a process that happens because of a fundamental disagreement about how good you are, how much you are actually worth.

[Cody Ross]

Right?

[Dan Uggla]

It's a better way to put it. Yeah, that's.

[Cody Ross]

That's correct. Yes. And I, I'll remember mine very vividly, although I don't remember the actual numbers. You could probably tell me the numbers, Pablo.

[Pablo Torre]

It was, it was, it was a comically smaller difference than what Dan was dealing with. Dan, again, we're talking about difference about a million dollars. In Cody's case, we're talking about, you were asking for 4.45. David was offering 4.2.

[Cody Ross]

And so, and this is what happens, is classic Samson. This is what happens with Marlins. I think we're the first team to start this file and trial deal. So if you file the number, there was no negotiating between the time you filed and the time your arbitration hearing. So there was a deadline. I remember. I'll never forget my agent was calling me to the. At the night, at the, you know, witching hour, going, hey, they're not budging. And I'm like, well, I'm not budging either. And so we'll just go to arbitration. And so hung up. And sure enough, the. The time came and I'm like, let's see if they budge. You think David's budging? Hell no, he ain't budging. And so he text me or called me the next day. He's like, you idiot. Now we gotta go to arbitration in Florida. Oh, gosh, this is gonna be painful. Like, just wait and see how much we're gonna talk about you. You're going down. I'll never forget it. To finish my story, I'll never forget I fly into Jupiter for spring training and our arbitration cases in Tampa, and David calls me and he's like, hey. He's like, hey, I'm taking my family to Tampa and do you want to jump on the jet with us to go to your arbitration case? I'm like, yeah. And so my wife, my wife and I get on the private jet, but meanwhile, it probably costs more to fly there than on a private jet than what I'm actually going to either win or lose in arbitration. And so. So we get on the jet, we get there, we're, you know, cutting it up, having a good time, going to the room. And even though I put up a good year going into that year, like, they bring out some of the craziest stats you've ever seen in your life of, like, what you. How bad you are. And compared to, you know, some guy from 1973, like, what else? How do I compare to that guy?

[Pablo Torre]

Typically, in the case of, for instance, the Giants, right, they had a policy that I was reading about, and they were, like, undefeated in arbitrations for two decades, apparently. But the president of baseball ops for the Giants, he did not want to be in the room for arbitrations because it was reported. It would help better preserve the clubhouse team spirit to not have the guy you'd have to see every day be the guy who was telling you, by the way, you're worse than you think you are. And so I just want to set the scene of, like, David, it feels like a courtroom drama. And also maybe a reality show and also maybe a game show of some sort. Like, can you set the scene for what the.

[Dan Uggla]

This is.

[David Sampson]

So the scene is this, that when a player has between three and six years of service time, after six years, you're a free agent for the first three years. The team has the unilateral right to decide the salary of the player as long as it's at the minimum or above. But in the middle three years, the player and the team have to agree. And if they can't agree on a number, they're not free agents. They can't go to another team. But you then go to three independent arbitrators who have to decide the salary. And what you do is you go into a room, a literal room with. With a rectangular table. And I couldn't disagree more with the Giants president, baseball ops. I think he's a wussy. You've got to be willing to go face your players, and you've got to be honest. And so I didn't go to arbitration with just Dan and Cody. We went often with players, some of whom we never even met until the arbitration room because we had just traded for them. Kevin, Greg, guys I met in the arbitration room. Redmond I met in. In the arbitration.

[Pablo Torre]

Your first impression, hey, good to meet you.

[David Sampson]

You suck. That's literally how the relationship started. And our job is to explain to arbitrators why what the player wants is not reasonable. And you use what are called comps. You find players who have stats that are similar with numbers and salaries that are similar to what you want to pay. And the player gives different players and explains why they should be like those players. And the arbitrator decides.

[Pablo Torre]

So I want to ask Dan, your emotional state heading into this, your. Your dress code heading into this. I don't know baseball players to be guys who love wearing suits as a comfort zone.

[Dan Uggla]

I didn't sign for a lot of money. I signed for 40 grand out of college. And so the league minimum, once I got to the big leagues was my first kind of, like, situation with decent money. Right. So now I'm about to become a millionaire. It's either going to be 4.4, you said, or over 5 million. So I'm excited either way. Right. I'm excited away. You're wearing your best suit. You're like, you're prepared. You're like, you know, I set some records going in, so I'm pretty cocky. I'm like, man, these. These got no chance, you know, gonna. Gonna embarrass them. Right. You know, my agents are, like, pumping me up, and then we go in, and then they present their case, and I'm like, oh, I'm not as good. I'm not. Not as good as I thought.

[Cody Ross]

I was like, Dan, I mean, I'm coming from basically nothing, and I'm, you know, we're talking about a few hundred thousand dollars. Yeah. So basically, you're in a hotel conference room, and it's, like David said, a long rectangular table. On that side of the table is your team that you're playing for. And the commissioner's office has a couple of attorneys. And then over here is the arbiters. On my side, I have my agents, attorneys, MLBPA attorneys. And then, so I'm sitting closest to the arbiters, and I see David over there, I think was Bind Fester. I can't remember.

[David Sampson]

Yep.

[Cody Ross]

Was Blindfuss.

[David Sampson]

Yes.

[Cody Ross]

Yep. And I just was looking at film the whole time. David's got his little smile, and he's, like, smirking at me, and I'm, like, smirking at him. And meanwhile, my agents are like, hey, you can't. Like, when they're talking about you, when you're. We're talking about you, you just, like. You're literally, like, in a courtroom. But I just wanted to go in and hear what they had to say, because I felt like even that was gonna make me better going into the following year.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait, that.

[David Sampson]

That.

[Pablo Torre]

That seems so unrelatable. To me.

[Cody Ross]

Yeah, I wanted it. I wanted the smoke. I heard all these horror stories about, you know, people going into arbitration and, you know, creating bad tension and bad blood going into the season. Could have a bad taste in your mouth for the organization, but I really didn't. Even though they hammered me, which was amazing. At the same time, I'm like, wow, where do they get this? This is incredible. Incredible. Like they pull stuff out of there. Literally out of there. It was a tough process to go through, but at the end of it, it was abs. I would. I would do it over a hundred times.

[David Sampson]

Cody, let me remind you of a little nugget that you're forgetting, which is you negotiate with the player right up into the deadline, and you don't know what the player's going to file at, and the player doesn't know what the team's going to file at because you exchange numbers right at a deadline. Do you know that Cody Ross filed at a number below his last offer to us? Cody, I don't know if you remember this, but this is the only time in my career and you were. I. It made me insane because not only did we go to the room over 250 grand, but when you filed at 445, you wouldn't go below 45 based on comps of ghosts. And we were like, if this guy files at that number, he loses. And then he goes in and files at a number he can win at. And when he filed at 4:45, I remember like it was yesterday. He filed smartly knowing that we're a file to go team, so we're not going to negotiate with him and he has to file a number that he can actually support, which you didn't realize.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, Cody Ross was just there for the experience. He just wanted to ride the ride.

[David Sampson]

Told me that after. And I almost broke up with him because you said that to me, Cody. But I remember he's the only player who ever said that to me.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, just to again state the obvious, maybe it never is the case that the player is there to hear this except for inside of this room. They never get the unvarnished thoughts. And I also want to just establish that when you walk into the room, there are these three arbitrators there, right? A panel that has been, I guess, decided by both the league and the union in concert. Cody, do you remember anything about your arbitrators?

[Cody Ross]

I do not, actually. I. I mean, I couldn't pick them out of a group of two. Any. Of any. Any three of them. I have no idea. I wasn't focused really on them.

[Pablo Torre]

You don't remember a gentleman named James Oldham from Georgetown Law who is a researcher of English legal history in London? In his spare time he had written a book called the Mansfield Manuscripts and the Growth of English law in the 18th century.

[Cody Ross]

It's even now a little shocking when people ask me how long I've been on the Georgetown Law faculty and I answer, well, in truth, half a century.

[Pablo Torre]

That was one of the arbitrators?

[Dan Uggla]

Yeah. I mean, I honestly came in knowing nothing. I don't think my agents knew anything about the arbitrators other than that they're supposed to be neutral.

[David Sampson]

The arbitrators don't talk during the arbitration. They don't ask questions. They just sit there and listen. And, and they don't give a written opinion at the end. All they do is rule in favor of the team or the player. You don't know why, you don't know what. Whether it was a 2 to 1 or 3 to nothing vote, you only know the result. So there's zero accountability. Which is why possession arrow is an important part of the arbitration system where if the players have won eight in a row that particular year, the team is going to win the next one no matter what.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait, wait. Just to clarify what that is, what you're saying is that there are decisions rendered that are not on the merits of this specific case.

[David Sampson]

They won't admit it, but it's true. A 100 guys. I don't know if your union told you that, but possession arrow in baseball arbitration is a real thing.

[Cody Ross]

Yeah, my agent told me that actually.

[Pablo Torre]

So would just to again clarify that, it's the idea that these arbitrators are agreed upon by the union and the league. So to keep doing this job arbit firing, they need to be satisfying both sides.

[David Sampson]

That's exactly right. They will. Because at the end of every arbitration year, the players union can point to a name and say, I don't want this person involved next year. And the league can't do anything about it. That person's removed. The league can do the same thing. In order to get appointed year after year, you have to have satisfied both sides. And to do that, you have to give wins to both sides.

[Pablo Torre]

And possession error is just a term of art. It's a obviously a basketball term.

[David Sampson]

It alternates. So you know that if it's been five league wins in a row, the player is going to get the next one.

[Pablo Torre]

Dan, just remind me beforehand what did you heard from other People like, what's the reputation of this whole process, this whole ritual before you actually got to experience it?

[Dan Uggla]

Well, you always hear kind of like, you can't. You can't, like, be friends with these people. They're gonna talk trash about you, and they're gonna mean it and all this kind of stuff. So it's like, it wasn't the best. Sorry, it wasn't the best advice from dude. I know. It's, like, so stupid.

[Cody Ross]

It's like holding his iPhone.

[Dan Uggla]

No, I'm like, I'm holding wires out of the way. I'm in this horrible spot. The sun's coming in on me. My phone's dying. Can't find my AirPods, you know?

[David Sampson]

This is Dan Agla.

[Cody Ross]

This is. This is. This is Dan.

[Dan Uggla]

So after I get done here, y' all need to talk about five minutes while I charge it, because I gotta unplug my.

[David Sampson]

So anyways, he's being serious.

[Dan Uggla]

Oh, I'm dead serious.

[Pablo Torre]

I like that we're. I like that we're going on a tour of what appears to be the largest house in the world.

[Dan Uggla]

Oh, gosh.

[Cody Ross]

It is.

[Dan Uggla]

It is. I wish. I wish. Don't mind the 26 right there. Carrying his phone through his estate.

[David Sampson]

He does have a beautiful house and a beautiful family.

[Cody Ross]

Where are you going, bro?

[Dan Uggla]

I'm going down. Going down to show him your jersey. Right there. Come on. Oh, there it is.

[Cody Ross]

Nice.

[Dan Uggla]

Love it. So I'm getting out of the sun.

[Pablo Torre]

Dan has settled his phone at yet another wing.

[Dan Uggla]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Of the estate.

[Dan Uggla]

So. Yes.

[Cody Ross]

You just walked 15,000 square feet away. That basement's amazing. Y' all should go check it out sometime.

[Dan Uggla]

It's a good one.

[Pablo Torre]

When you enter, the room is there basically the clock already ticking? Because these are how many cases a day?

[David Sampson]

In some circumstances, you have morning cases, 9am cases, and 2pm cases. And generally arbitrators will hear one or two cases or three during the course of a session in Tampa or in Arizona, it switches off. And it's. It's just funny because in. I remember Dan's arbitration, we were arguing about a lot of money, and it was a tough one because, Dan, you had great bulk. And I'm sure.

[Pablo Torre]

What does that mean?

[David Sampson]

Great bulk is when you go into arbitration, you've got a lot of stats, you have a lot of home runs, a lot of runs batted in. You've played a lot of games, so you are able to say that, look, I have performed. He was an all star. I don't. I'm sure you remember this Dan but you were a pre arbitration all star, which also counts for money twice. Which is why we offered him what we thought was more, more than we needed to at 44, and he was able to call on players, you know, of the, you know, the Cabrera ilk, practically because of what his numbers were, pooh holes and all sorts of people who we said, you're not even close to. And we were wrong. Arbitration is a manifestation of the ultimate breaking down of an athlete trying to break his will, his confidence by showing that he's something that he doesn't want to believe he is. There's a reason why the manager is not part of any arbitration hearings and the front office is. There's a reason why certain front office people don't want to be involved. Right. Because they don't. They can't skate the other side.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, yeah, Just how do you. I want to get in the mind of David Sampson trying to throw haymakers to take down the incredible bulk.

[David Sampson]

That's what you do. You try to excuse it. You. We talked about the fact we would remember guys, that we would have to mention that the Marlins always were last in the league in attendance and that we had no revenue. If you guys were better, we'd have more fans.

[Pablo Torre]

Amazing, amazing.

[Dan Uggla]

Guys were better, we'd have more fans. I thought that was a good one.

[Pablo Torre]

It's the only moment in which David Sampson regretted personally inflating and lying about attendance numbers.

[David Sampson]

We would actually, in the arbitration say that. When would say that, don't look at our attendance that's announced. And we would go through what our real attendance was. We would admit that in the arbitration because it's all confidential.

[Pablo Torre]

You said that they should entrust those numbers because you are dishonest.

[David Sampson]

Exactly.

[Dan Uggla]

Do you.

[Pablo Torre]

Do you remember a moment when you were like, oh, that punch that David threw was a little bit harder than I was ready for.

[Cody Ross]

I just remember, like certain stats that they threw out and I was like, oh, man. Like, that is below the belt. Like, I think they were trying to pin me on me not being a starter because I wasn't a starter. When I got to the Marlins, I worked my way into being a starter. I was a platoon player. Somebody would get hurt. I would play like, you know, 30 games in a row and then the guy would come back and I would kind of platoon. And so going into arbitration, I'm three years in. I've only been a starter for a year and a half. So they were pounding the arbitration guys like, this guy's not a starter. He doesn't you know, you can't look at him as a starter. Even though I came in on my platform, you're having a really good year. They were just pounding that guy. He's not a starter. He's not a starter. And I'm like, okay, I get it. I'm not. I am a starter. But you're telling me I'm not now. They don't think I am a starter.

[David Sampson]

Well, our argument was that you can't compare him to starters because he was only a circumstance starter. And we didn't want the arbitrators to believe that we viewed him as anything other than a bench player who could be a good fill in on a bad team.

[Cody Ross]

And, and also, and, and also. That's a good point. And also I got thrown in. I. When I was really young, or not really young, but I came in as a center fielder in professional baseball. And so my agents were like, he's a center fielder. He. So they were comparing me to all the center fielders, and David and them were like, he's not a center fielder. We only put him there because we had to put him there.

[Pablo Torre]

At this point, if I'm Cody Ross, I'm resolving to not be friends with David Sampson anymore.

[David Sampson]

I mean, I don't think. I don't think that that's true, Pablo. I think that I was communicative with the players who went to arbitration with. And we would explain the process so when both sides view it that way, there's not animosity.

[Dan Uggla]

Like, you hear horror stories and you learn pretty quick that, like, all right, am I going to be tough? Is this going to bother me? You realize it's part of the business. Your first instinct is be like, oh, man, f these gods. I can't believe they're not paying me. I deserve all this. Oh. Poured on, you know, and that just wasn't our relationship. I think that has a lot to do with, you know, David just, you know, being straight up with us. And I would tell all the players that are going to go through it, that haven't been through it is like, embrace it, you know, enjoy as part of it. It means you're good that you're going through this.

[Cody Ross]

I would say, like, when you asked me, like, why would, you know, would you want to throw a punch at David? I would say no, because a lot of what they said, like, like, you can't deny some of the stuff that they said. So I'm like, man, even though that hurt, there's a lot of truth in that. Like, I Can see where they would come and try to bring that case and. And. And try to make me look like a certain player.

[Dan Uggla]

I was actually. Yeah, I was actually pretty. I was like, holy. They're comparing me to this guy. Oh, man, that's cool. You know, and they're, like, telling me that I never got an MVP vote and this guy has. I'm like, that means I might should have got an MVP vote. You know, I got screwed in that.

[Pablo Torre]

You were honored by not being Albert Pujols.

[Cody Ross]

Yeah.

[Dan Uggla]

You know, it's like I was never supposed to be there in the first place, you know, it just so happens.

[Cody Ross]

You'Re Marcus Giles, bro.

[Dan Uggla]

That's right. Yeah. 2.0, Marcus. 2.0, baby.

[David Sampson]

That is something. I think that it's also important to know that it's really hard to get to arbitration. The majority of baseball players, first of all, you never make it to the big leagues. And if you make it to the big leagues, the overwhelming majority don't get three years of service. They don't get an opportunity to get into this system. And I think Dan and Cody are two examples of players who understood that. And there's some players who just don't get that.

[Pablo Torre]

I want to know, David, we've. We've created a summit here of people who are shockingly reasonable about a very contentious courtroom drama. What's it like when it's not quite as simpatico?

[David Sampson]

So I can only tell you, in all the times I went to the room, I was able to, because of being honest, I was able to disarm the players. The difficult part is when you go with the player you don't know, and then you just have to build a relationship from a first and 20 from a negative spot. And that's. That was the case. Do you guys remember Kevin Greg at all?

[Cody Ross]

Oh, yeah. I got a Kevin Greg story. So when Kevin went from the Marlins to the Cubs, we played them in Florida. Dan hit a home run off of him to tie the game in the ninth. And I came up right after and hit a home run to win.

[Dan Uggla]

Oh, yeah.

[Cody Ross]

I didn't even see it because I was so high. Kevin Greg, two GS. Cody Ross, left field. That one's deep.

[Dan Uggla]

That one's over.

[David Sampson]

Rock off.

[Dan Uggla]

Cody Ross.

[Cody Ross]

Just like that. Back to back. Boom, boom. Kevin Greg.

[Pablo Torre]

I just like that somewhere. Kevin Greg's like, what the. Man, I'm just hanging out. Suddenly I'm dragging.

[David Sampson]

Listen, he had a career, but when we acquired him, he would not settle. And he was a bastard. And his Agents were about it, and we said, no problem. We'll go right to the room with you. Good to meet you. And he's a very tall, you know, Kevin, Greg, do you remember? Like, he's a big six. He has this menacing look. You know, Cody and Dan look jolly. And they are. Kevin Greg is not what I would call a jolly guy.

[Pablo Torre]

He's a reliever, right?

[David Sampson]

That's.

[Pablo Torre]

His whole job is to intimidate.

[David Sampson]

He's. He is intimidating. Remember, he had those glasses like that. He would wear that you didn't. Never knew whether they were prescription. And he happens to be a great guy, but didn't know this at.

[Pablo Torre]

You called him a bastard, like, 30 seconds ago.

[David Sampson]

Because in what. I didn't know him. And he. He would not settle after the trade. And he said. And his agent said, we will not budge. And we were like, we're going to the room. And the agent said, you're going to acquire a player and then go right to the room without ever knowing him.

[Pablo Torre]

The room.

[David Sampson]

And that's what we call it, the room. And I said, I don't. I'm not scared at all. And so Kevin comes in and.

[Pablo Torre]

And I was born in the room, raised by the room.

[David Sampson]

Like, listen, don't. Don't threaten me with that. And so. But then after that, when I introduced myself to him outside of the room, when we went back to spring training, we built this relationship that was built on a mutual respect and honesty, and he was a very talented guy. But that was a tough, tough arbitration because we were explaining why we shouldn't have traded for a guy. We basically were saying, I can't believe how dumb we were to acquire someone who's this bad that we shouldn't be paying him any amount of money. And he didn't know me at all. And he was hearing us say this. It was a tough one.

[Pablo Torre]

So the room that you're describing, you're talking about a player that you acquired where you're now saying, oh, this is a mistake. If you're trying to trade that guy to someone else, though, you're saying the opposite.

[David Sampson]

You're saying how great he is. Yeah, the room, it's an interesting place, and I think Dan and Cody would agree. Where it's like Vegas, where. Where what happens in the room is supposed to stay in the room, and you're supposed to take it as its own entity. And some players are better at it than others. These two guys are amazing at it. But not all the players were.

[Pablo Torre]

It's.

[David Sampson]

There's ego involved we don't want to lose a case. We don't want the arbitrators to believe that players are worth more than we thought because we do it for a living.

[Pablo Torre]

How does this whole thing end? So are there closing arguments?

[David Sampson]

Each side closes and they say to the arbitrator, the final word from each side is, so I hope that you will see from the evidence presented that Dan Ugla is worthy of 4.4 million and that you will rule in favor of the club. And the player ends with, I hope that you will see from the evidence that Dan ugla is worth 5.35 million and you will rule in favor of the player. There's a thank you. You shake hands, you, you leave and then you go back. You literally go back to spring training immediately because there's workouts, arbitration. Generally, many of the hearings happen during spring training and you have to get back for spring training.

[Pablo Torre]

And what's the, is the rest of the team like, so how'd it go? Like, what's it like in the clubhouse?

[Cody Ross]

Well, you find out either that day or the next day, right, David? I remember it's really, really fast.

[Pablo Torre]

All right, so it is decision time. We kept you waiting outside this room for the verdict long enough. And I just need to point out here in total fairness before we proceed that while a pitcher may not want to challenge Dan Ugla or Cody Ross, as Kevin Gregg discovered, arbitration is where you would not want to challenge David Sampson, a financially savvy, detail obsessed team president with a law degree who professionally haggles over contracts for a living. As he said earlier in the room, David Sampson is wildly intimidating in his own right. Which is why it is especially hilarious to me that David Sampson's official record in the room against Cody Ross and Dan Ugla is 0 and 2. Do you remember the moment, the scene of how you found out that you won?

[Dan Uggla]

It was early in the morning and we, you know, I was up at 7:30 in the morning, couldn't sleep. And I think we got the phone call somewhere around like 8:30, 9 o'. Clock. It was quick, it was early. And they said, we have ruled in your favor. And it was just like, you know, like an explosion. It was like jumped up, five year old kid and me was jumping on the bed, screaming and yelling. All the, all my agents and everybody come running in. We had like eight people in the house. We're all like on the bed jumping together, you know, of popping champagne. And I was like, you know, it's like it was, it was Party time, man. It was great.

[Cody Ross]

Mine was a little different. I remember I was obviously in Florida the next day, and my agent called me before I actually went into spring training, and he was like, great news, we won. Blah, blah, blah. And I'll never forget it because I remember thinking now, wow, I'm a multimillionaire now. I just got four and a half million dollars. I can tell people I'm a multimillionaire. So that was kind of my thought process behind it.

[Pablo Torre]

And look, I can't tell you for certain that Cody and Dan would be quite so eager to relive all of this with me on camera 15 or so years later if in fact they had lost to their employer in the room. But what remains clear to me is that the guy who lost, David Sampson, absolutely is.

[Cody Ross]

So, yeah, by the time you get back to spring training the next day, you already know that you won. And you know when you win, it's nice because you can walk around the clubhouse and be like, I just kicked their ass. Yeah, we won, we won. You know, so it's kind of a. It's. And then, you know, you see the front office in the clubhouse the next day and you walk by like, what's up, guys?

[David Sampson]

I remember that clearly, going into the clubhouse after a loss.

[Cody Ross]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

What's it like for David Sampson to walk around the clubhouse having lost in the world of one on one business?

[David Sampson]

Yeah. You just feel as though that the other players are, Are seeing a weakness and that they're going to use that when it's their turn for arbitration. And so I didn't want to lose any of the cases at all, but I do remember making it a point to be in the clubhouse the next day to make sure that all the players saw and including Dan and Cody, that win or lose, we're. We're teammates and we are on the same side. And what arbitration does is it forces you to be enemies for that period of five hours. And if you do it with aplomb, you can get through it. And some players and some teams just can't get through it. Guys, they're teams that will not go to arbitration. And players know that. And you can take advantage of, avoid.

[Pablo Torre]

All of the awkwardness, attention, infighting.

[David Sampson]

The. The Yankees are famous. They don't want to go to arbitration. They feel as though that that is beneath them to have to argue against a player. And it, it ends up hurting them because players take advantage of that fact and, and can get higher salaries.

[Cody Ross]

It hurts the Yankees and then it hurts the other Teams too, because then the other teams have to negotiate on the behalf of the Yankees and like, well, the Yankees are just handing money out then. Or for the teams like the Marlins, they're trying to save every penny they possibly can. So it's it, it, it creates this kind of distance between teams too.

[David Sampson]

And we never wanted the union to be able to use a win like Dan Ugla's win cost the industry so much, much more so than, than, than your win, Cody, just because of, of where Dan was in his career. Move the market 100% because then everyone who wanted to compare themselves to Dan Uga, they were comparing themselves to a 5.35 number instead of a 4.4 number. It's really actually a big deal and players should be thanking you. Uggs, I don't know if you get payments from them, but there are a bunch of players who, who came after you who got paid a hell of a lot more than they would have had you lost that case.

[Dan Uggla]

Right?

[David Sampson]

Your pre arbitration years were some of the best in the history of baseball.

[Dan Uggla]

Oh my gosh, you guys are making, making me blush over here. Making me blush. I'm not, not used to all the flowers. Thank you, thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

But, but the ultimate compliment is David Samson saying that true clutchness is when you're great before I got to pay you more.

[David Sampson]

Well, that's we. These guys know my mantra. You have to have players outperform their contracts if you're going to have a winning team. And that's the tr. That's true of the Yankees, the Giants, the Braves or the Marlins. Every team needs that or you're not going to win.

[Pablo Torre]

How much were you guys watching the faces of the arbitrators? Because there's suspense in the room. You know, what's the tension like the.

[David Sampson]

League and the union hate each other. So the representatives of the league and the representatives of the union. I don't know who you guys had. Was it Michael Weiner? I don't know what year it could have been Wiener who was. Rest in peace, he died young. But he, he was very difficult in the room and it was him. He was, he's a great, great litigator.

[Pablo Torre]

Beloved by the players.

[David Sampson]

But, well, because what he did for those players, it's just incredible. He advocated in a way that you know, would make Donald Fear blush. But what Wiener did in the room was try to get the arbitrator's attention by saying how greedy and how bad the teams are in the league looking for arbitrators to give any Sort of indication that they were listening or agreeing. My experience was I didn't really pay attention to the arbitrators because I knew they were going to take the cases. And after the oral arguments, they go into a room and just sort of decide and there was nothing I could read from it. I don't know if you guys found differently.

[Cody Ross]

Well, I. You get coached up on it by your agents to, you know, how to act, what to do, what not to do. And, you know, you're just super polite when you walk in the room. I don't remember if we shook hands before, if we shook hands. I knew we shook hands after with the arbiters, but I remember just like, you know, trying to give them that, like, you know, cute little smile that I have, like, yeah, you know, winning. Maybe a couple. Win a couple winking and shooting fingers.

[Pablo Torre]

Seriously, that's what you're doing.

[David Sampson]

Like, that's gonna work. You were gonna charm them.

[Cody Ross]

It works. Trust me.

[David Sampson]

I can't even. Cody, you, you, you. I loathe you. I really do. Stands in front of the arbitrators trying to woo them with his million dollar smile, and he never wore a mouth guard.

[Cody Ross]

That's.

[Pablo Torre]

So what did, what did going through this experience do for your guys's relationship?

[Dan Uggla]

There was such a foundation of like, friendship, business. Friendship, business relationship. You know, just knowing each other past baseball, knowing to those families and everything that, you know, we're having pizza in New York at four in the morning some nights and there's no like, what are you doing? Or everybody's like trying to hide from the other. It's like we're all in there being people together. And we had built that foundation. Honestly, I mean, it didn't, I guess it could have made us a little stronger. And we got through it because anytime you go through something like that and you're still friends or whatever, it makes you strong. But we were already so strong.

[Cody Ross]

I think for me, the reason why there was, there was no sort of animosity or hate or. I think obviously I have to give a ton of credit to Dave, even though I don't like to. I'm going to give him a ton of credit. He was so good about coming back on the team plane, hanging out with us, playing poker, having a couple drinks with us on the back of the plane, talking, just, just so much fun just to be around. And then when it came time to do business, he was completely honest with us, whether we were good or bad. And that is exactly what you want as a player. You don't ever really get that. You don't get the personal, usually, and you don't get the honesty, secondly. And that's what made him so, so amazing.

[Pablo Torre]

You know, as I'm, as I'm watching David genuinely be warmed by your warmth, by your friendship, I do want to point out the aftermath of this whole thing, which is that arbitration, of course, comes and goes. They both win. David Sampson loses. But then in the case of Dan Ugla, Dan, you're gone. You leave the Marlins by 2011. And Cody Ross that, that next season, you're out of there.

[David Sampson]

Got way too expensive.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been Pablo Torre finds Out a Meadowlark Media production. And I'll talk to you next time.

[David Sampson]

SA.