← Pablo Torre Finds Out
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.
- [00:06]
B
As I got older, I'm like, well, you're putting so much effort into these lies. You could have done that in an honest way too and still been successful.
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A
Right after this ad, you're listening to Giraffe Kings. Okay, so at the risk of stating the very obvious, pro athletes don't really love being interviewed by journalists these days. They find the questions exhausting and or clickbaity. And they also all have their own podcasts now. Anyway, and so having to deal with a reporter like me is annoying. But there is one exception.
- [00:59]
B
Finally tonight, one of the young stars.
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A
Of super bowl week isn't a player, but he is America Strong. What's up, dude?
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B
My name is Jeremiah.
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A
11 year old Jeremiah Fennell stealing the show during super bowl week. I'm a big fan. Selected by the NFL Network as their youth sportscaster.
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B
What is the offensive game plan? What is the hardest part about going against the Chiefs? I started to do this at the age of 7 years old because I, I wasn't able to play sports due to some medical issues. But I still like the sports environment. So I decided to hone my craft in journalism at the age of seven.
- [01:32]
A
Oh my goodness. Amazing. Jeremiah Fennell got into sports reporting at age 7. And you know him because he goes viral all the time, like at the super bowl earlier this year, because he has exhaustive research and wildly precocious questions. And so all of these athletes and celebrities are impressed. But the thing about Jeremiah is that he's also not alone anymore. Because yes, adult reporters are getting boxed out of locker rooms and are only vaguely tolerated at pressers at this point. But we have been witnessing what I call a golden generation of kid reporters. Kid reporters who are everywhere. What's the most expensive gift you ever bought? I bought my girl a Louis Vuitton bag.
- [02:21]
B
That's probably the most expensive thing I bought. Did she like it?
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A
Yeah, she better have.
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B
She didn't have a choice. She didn't have a choice. She better have liked it. I can bar up on command. Can you?
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A
No.
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B
You don't need to show me either.
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A
That's all right.
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B
Sometimes I don't like cake.
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A
But you said you would have a party. What is a party without a cake? We would have ice cream. And all this made me wonder how long the occupation of kid reporter has even been a thing. And it does seem to be a thing. Specifically in sports, kid reporters aren't getting credentialed at, like, you know, trials and Senate hearings, they're going to games. All of which is how I eventually stumbled across the story of a child. A truly adorable, unassuming child who I now consider to be a pioneer in the field of kid reporting. And this child's name is Gary Veder. Gary is now an adult, obviously in his early 40s. You might actually recognize him as an accomplished standup comic. But in order to understand how this whole thing started, how this whole occupation really began, what I first needed to do was ask Gary Veder about his father, an accomplished con artist named Manny Veder. And so Manny Veder looks like what. Carries himself how.
- [03:50]
B
Carries himself very confidently. You know, he walks into a room and he can make people laugh. He is very trusting when you. When you talk to him.
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A
When was the first time your dad used your harmlessness, your seeming innocuousness to his personal advantage?
- [04:07]
B
The first time that I remember is when we would go to the movie theater. We'd see the movie for free because he would have me sneak in under the ropes, and then he would tell the usher, hey, my son is down over there by the. By, like, the. By the theater doors, and he has our tickets. And it was a plan that my dad devised. I mean, it's simple, you know, sneaking into movie theaters. People do it all the time. But this was just at 5 years old. My dad was teaching me, all right, this is how we have to do things. And by the way, we weren't seeing any movies that I wanted to see.
- [04:34]
A
I was gonna ask.
- [04:34]
B
Yeah, they're all his. I mean, I saw Rambo or 1, 2 and 3 when I was, like, you know, between the ages of like, five to, like, eight with my dad. I saw Child's Play when I was, like, you know, like six or seven. So I remember seeing that in the theater with my dad. So it was all movies that he was, like, really wanted to see. And I was like, oh, all right, you know, I'll go along. This is what my dad wants to do, you know, this bonding moment with my father.
- [04:55]
A
Yeah. And what was he? I mean, did you do, like, Little League stuff together?
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B
Oh, yeah. So Little League. First of all, I wasn't a good Little League player, but I was on every all star team because of my. My father. So there wasn't an all star team. I wasn'.
- [05:09]
A
How does one con Little League in Long island in that way?
- [05:12]
B
It was just, you know, he would. He would be familiar with all the coaches. So, you know, being friendly with them is like, that's how you get your kid on. And I mean, a lot of people could do that. But eventually, when I didn't have the skills, my dad became the coach and that's how it would get on. So he was coaching the Little League, and there came a time where there was a theft in the Little League for sports equipment, and there was a bunch of missing bats, missing gloves and things like that. And I never thought anything of it. But then maybe it was a. I want to say, a few months to maybe a year later, we were over visiting my cousin in Maryland. And for a gift, my dad gave him this, this bat. And the bat was from the Half Hollow Hills Little League. And I was like, I mean, it's clear. It's literally, it said, it's printed on there. It seems like that's something that he would, would have done. So I stopped playing baseball. Basically, my dad was just too much. So I'm like, I started playing hockey and I found a passion for hockey, and my mom, she would take me to early morning practices and I started getting a coach and I, I joined some teams. And then when my dad saw that I was decent at hockey, hockey was the sport that I was the best at. And he then came on board and this, he kind of. He turned in my hockey career into a business because he started recruiting players from different cities and different states, the best players. So he would have us go to different tournaments. And his scam in this was, I mean, yes, he was putting it together, but he was completely overcharging these parents. A point where, you know, a hotel is 150 bucks a night, but, you know, he's charging them 350 and it's like he's making money off of this. And then I would watch parents get very angry at my father. And here I am, just a kid who's 11, 12 years old. I want to play hockey, but I'm seeing my dad get getting yelled at by parents whose kid I'm friends with. And you're like, oh, God, I can only imagine the things that they were saying in their car rides home about my father. And it just like, you know, gives you a bad look. And these are the things where I'm like, I just want my dad to be a regular parent.
- [07:12]
A
And also, as you might imagine, Gary still feels this way. He still wants his dad to be a regular parent. It's a fundamental desire that has only grown over time to the point where Gary recently started his own podcast called Number One dad, in which he tries to resolve this specific issue. It is also the thing which inspired him to come to terms with the whole reason I wanted to talk to Gary in the first place, which was to relive the true story of their biggest scam yet.
- [07:46]
B
He saw an opportunity to take me to games by calling up Madison Square Garden, saying that we work for Sports Illustrated for Kids, that a photographer and a reporter would be going. He would act as the photographer with a nice camera. I would go with a pen and a pen as a reporter. And he arranged where we would have press passes waiting for us when we arrived to Madison Square Garden. And they opened up the doors for us. So my dad and I, first game we ever went to was a Knicks versus Bucks game. And we. We tried it there and got into locker room and then never looked back after.
- [08:48]
A
Okay, so something you should know up top here is that Sports Illustrated for Kids was an actual magazine that was staffed by actual adults. I know, little disappointing, pretty crazy, but, you know, issues had these perforated trading cards, cartoon characters and stuff shout out to Buzz Beamer. All of it was put there by grownups. And I occasionally was one of them. You see, back in my 20s, I worked at Sports Illustrated, the grownups version. And we shared an office with SI for Kids. And so they would occasionally send me on assignments. I once interviewed Ken Griffey Jr. And his son Trey, for instance. And that was really fun because it was always fun. These interviews always felt easier than they should have been because all these athletes loved talking to an audience of kids. And so on this level, I could actually understand the logic of Manny Veder's plan for his son Gary, as insane as it was, because, yeah, SI for Kids could just cut out the middleman in these interviews. Essentially me. Do you remember that day when this is proposed? Like, what is. What happens? How does this all originate?
- [10:07]
B
I remember, like, you know, we were going to that. This Knicks versus Bucs game back in the 9293 season. And we've gone to games before at this point, whether it would be a New York Islanders game. Cause I grew up on Long Island. But my dad, he didn't have tickets this time. So we're. We'd drive to Madison Square Garden. I didn't necessarily know what was happening. I knew that we didn't have tickets and that my dad said, he's like, you know, if you want to meet the players, this is what we're going to be doing. We're going to be going in as Sports Illustrator for Kids. Just follow my lead.
- [10:41]
A
So he comes to you with this fully formed strategy. You guys aren't, like, workshop. Obviously, you're a kid. But he's not, like, sort of thinking out loud about this. He comes to you. He's like, this is what we're about to do, right?
- [10:50]
B
Like, as a comic, I. You know, I'll think about my set all the time. It seemed like he didn't even think about it. He was just ready to go. Like, if you put him in front of, you know, somebody and he had a lie, he could lie right away. He could make up anything about anything.
- [11:04]
A
Describe you. What are you, like, in 92?
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B
So in 92, I was about to be in fifth grade, and I had a bowl haircut. I wore turtlenecks, wore, you know, baggy clothes. I had a look where people would be like, oh, this is somebody I would. I would just help out. Especially, like an adult.
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A
Right.
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B
And that's kind of like something my dad used to his advantage.
- [11:27]
A
And so for people who have not even been, let's say, in, you know, the bowels of a basketball arena, again, you're a kid, and now you're. What are you seeing? Like, can you describe the feeling of, like, what's happening on this first time?
- [11:39]
B
I mean, right away, it's like we're greeted at the Garden because, you know, you're. You're press. So you get. You get your press pass.
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A
And were you going as Gary Veder?
- [11:49]
B
I was going as Gary Veder. And my dad, I don't know why he would just use an alias and say that he wasn't my father. So. And that's the part that always. Like, in the beginning, I was like, okay, whatever. I mean, if this is how it works. But eventually I was like, can you just say that you're my dad? I mean, I think it's weirder to say that you're not my dad, but it's like. But I get. He just loved lying. And he had several different.
- [12:09]
A
I was gonna say, do you remember the aliases?
- [12:11]
B
He changed name from Manny. Manny Vita to Manny Wolf or Michael. Michael Wolf or who changed his name to Emanuel Wolf. It was just, like, things like that where it's just constantly switching around. And Wolf was my. My mother's maiden name. So it's like just these, like, catchy things where you're like, oh, I guess that's how you make an alias. But that's how he did it.
- [12:35]
A
Okay, so just another thing you should know, I think about this whole scheme is that I do find it terrifying, because while it's True that Madison Square garden in the 90s didn't have its current AI driven facial recognition surveillance system. This was still akin to trying to infiltrate the sport's Death Star. There were security guards everywhere. There were cameras everywhere. There were paranoid PR stormtroopers everywhere. And their entire job was to follow reporters around. But Manny Veder, Manny Wolf was a professional. Clearly, he had a protocol. He would buy whatever electronic camera equipment that he needed from B and H Photo Video, which was a store right near the Garden, and he would go up and deliberately charm the phalanx of security guards. But most crucial of all, Manny Wolf always made sure that he, the adult photographer, and little Gary Veder, the kid reporter, always split up once the game started, never once sitting together. Because this wasn't a father and a son situation. No, these were working journalists.
- [13:56]
B
We started just going to games and constantly meeting the team. And then I would go and become very familiar with, like, the security guards and everything. And by the time, like, we got to like the. I would say the 93, 94 season, the Knicks and the Rangers were. They're at their height. I mean, it was the best teams that, you know, both of those franchises have had in years up to that point. And even, I mean, even still. And I would just go and meet, like, Ewing and Oakley and, and. And John Starks.
- [14:25]
A
What are those interactions? Like?
- [14:27]
B
I mean, a lot of it was like, I would interview them, but it would also be. I was there to get autographs. So, I mean, the goal was to get autographs. Like, I mean, that was everything that, like acting like a Sports Illustrated for Kids reporter was to get us in the door. But the whole point was to get autographs, which is what you're not supposed to do.
- [14:45]
A
I was gonna say the number one rule of journalism, I suppose, would be you're not there to get autographs.
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B
Yeah. Which I think you guys should get autographs. But. But yeah, that was my whole goal. And as a kid, you could get away with it.
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A
And the other key part of this, Right. Is that your dad is there, not saying he's your dad, but he has a camera.
- [15:04]
B
He was just there to take pictures. And like, he would. He would kind of point me in the right direction and make sure that I was going to get to meet the people that I wanted to meet and everything.
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A
Which is to say, though, that not only do you have autographs, you have photographic evidence.
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B
Oh, yeah.
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A
Of all of this happening.
- [15:19]
B
Some of them, like, when I met Shaq, I didn't even interview him, but I came with A. I had a goal of getting a basketball sign, then a card sign. And when I gave Shaq the card, that was the. The second thing I asked him to sign. And he was like, please don't. Don't ask me to sign anything else after this. He was the nice guy. Like, he signed two things, but it's like, yeah, to a point. It's like you got two things. Like, enough is enough, right?
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A
It's like, I get the sense that you're running now. A memorabilia.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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A
But I'm looking at some of these photos. Like the Mario Lemieux one.
- [15:49]
B
Yeah. So the Mario Lemieux one, that was a celebrity golf association back in the day. I don't think they have it anymore, but they had a tournament on Long island and all these athletes. My dad found out that they were staying at this Marriott hotel, and I think it was right across from where Nassau Coliseum was.
- [16:03]
A
The celebrity Golf Association's first ever Long island event has drawn a number of top performers from the world of sports and entertainment, both past and present. They aren't just name swinging golf sticks.
- [16:16]
B
And my dad, he knew that I wanted to meet Mary Lemu, and he called up the. The hotel to say that he was Marilyn Meu's chauffeur just to confirm the time that he was gonna come down. And once he had that time, he then reserved, like, this banquet hall that was in the. In the hotel. So he knew Mary Lou was coming down, knew had this banquet hall secured. And then he called Mario Lemieux to say that Sports Illustrated for Kids was there, and that was just convenient, what he thought would be convenient for Mario Lemieux to now do an interview before his tea time. And I was able to interview Mary Lemu just one on one.
- [16:51]
A
Right. And I see you in this photograph. You're wearing a white. It says cga, Right?
- [16:56]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, so he called the CGA and told them Sports Illustrated for Kids was coming, so they rolled out the red carpet as well.
- [17:02]
A
Yeah. You have the white CGA T shirt. You have the CGA cap, and. Yeah. Lemieux, large hand is on your very small right shoulder.
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B
Yeah. And I was so pumped to meet him. And, yeah, I got two cards signed by him. So, yeah, everything that I wanted it to be.
- [17:19]
A
What were you asking? I mean, again, you were a reporter, ostensibly, right? So what were you asking them?
- [17:25]
B
I mean, so I read Sports Illustrate for kids. So it's like, what. What's your, you know, best advice? I mean, these interviews would be, you know, Two, three minutes long. So it's like what's your best advice that you could give to a kid? What's, you know, what's your favorite food and you know, if you favorite childhood memories, things like that. Those are like the things that I would stick to that, that was familiar to like the magazine itself. So nothing like groundbreaking at all.
- [17:49]
A
Right, so wait a minute. So I'm looking at the photographic library that you have thanks to your dad and running this scam and it takes you far more than just a couple of places. I mean you're going seemingly everywhere doing this stuff.
- [18:05]
B
Yeah, we went to cga. We went to. There's a time where I met Nancy Kerrigan and I was at Chelsea Piers. He knew that she was there for like some event. He picked me up early from school. That was another thing my dad, I mean he didn't care about school. School was being with him. That was, that was the learning experience. So he'd pick me up early from school, you know, and I'd, I leave and we drive. It was about a 45 minute drive from our house to, to wherever we go into Manhattan. And he secured this, basically the ice for me to skate with Nancy Kerrigan after he made her hold up one of my hockey jerseys to take like a picture and everything. So this is right after the Olympics incident.
- [18:46]
A
And the photo of this is just like again, like, look at this holding on my jersey.
- [18:49]
B
Yeah. My dad had no shame. So. Yeah, so I have my skates on in that picture too.
- [18:54]
A
Yeah, just like again, jeans, big red sort of like sweater and an ecstatic Nancy Kerrigan holding up the VETOR number 13.
- [19:02]
B
Yeah.
- [19:03]
A
White, black and gray hockey jersey.
- [19:05]
B
So the other thing was these are memories that I couldn't share when I was a kid.
- [19:09]
A
I, I was going to ask like, are you bragging to all your friends that this is all happening?
- [19:13]
B
He wanted to keep it in house. So it's like, you know, if you wanted to keep doing this, you can't really reveal how we're doing it. And that's a lot because it's, I'm going to all these games, having these, these cool memories.
- [19:24]
A
It sounds like the hardest part is to not tell anybody.
- [19:27]
B
Not, not to tell. And then you know, your friends, you know, you want to brag because it's like, you know, your friends might have an autograph or something or they met somebody. I'm like, well I met even cooler people than that. And I was, you know, and I'm in the locker rooms and I'm like, you Know, I'm doing. I'm doing really neat stuff, but it was stuff that I couldn't share, and I didn't share until until now, really.
- [19:48]
A
Right, right. I mean, some of these photos, man. I mean, there's John Elway just like, his hand engulfing.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Your hand on the couch at the.
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B
Again, That's a powerful man. Yeah, his hand almost crushed my hand. You know, you shake someone's hand, you obviously have. You should have a firm handshake. That's what.
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A
Yeah, that's what my dad taught me as well.
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B
But his was too firm where it's like, dude, you're, like, crushing my hand. And so that I'll never, like. I'm like, this is, like, insane out of anybody. I'm like, this is too much.
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A
You have a photo here where it's you and Richard Gere, and he is like. He's looking like he's playing your dad in the movie. He's. He has, like, his arm around you, like, cradling you.
- [20:23]
B
I. You know, I look back at these pictures, and there's some with, like, some other celebrities as well as, like, Rich Richard Gere. They were like. I. I was. They were just very warm to me. And it was. It's. It's. It's interesting because I'm like. I'm sure that happens now where, like, certain athletes and certain celebrities, they do that with. With kids that they're just meeting. But whatever it was what. Whatever my dad was spewing or whatever my look was, it just warmed people to both of us.
- [20:50]
A
He looks thrilled. Richard Gere looks thrilled. And. And. And right next to that photo, I presume in. In. In. In the chronological order, here is Cind.
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B
Yeah, they were dating at the time.
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A
Do you have a favorite of these encounters where Bill Murray.
- [21:07]
B
Because Space Jam just came out. I also knew him from, like, what about Bob And. And Ghostbusters, so I don't know why I didn't say Ghostbusters first, but I.
- [21:17]
A
Was gonna say, what about Bob? That's a real thing. I found out today. Gary Vee loves. What about.
- [21:22]
B
I think it's hilarious.
- [21:23]
A
Why'd you need to kick Bob out of the house?
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B
You think he's gone?
- [21:27]
A
He's not gone. That's the whole point. He's never gone. Is this some radical new therapy?
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B
You see, I was like, oh, my God, Bill Murray. And then. I mean, I love comedy back then. I didn't realize how much as a kid, but I love comedy. And I knew, like, SNL and things like that. So seeing Bill Murray, like, he was iconic back then, and that was. I was pumped for that one.
- [21:50]
A
I mean, you. You're kind of, like, living again. As a kid, I grew up in. I was born 85. So this is my wheelhouse. Like, this is. You're living my Dre dream. Like, this is the midnight. Like, not that I dreamed about this part, but, like, you're sitting next to Tom Brokaw in this photo.
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B
So that's the thing. I was meeting newscasters and, like, Tom Brokaw, and then there's Diane Sawyer, and I met Maury Povich.
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A
So it's like, oh, yeah.
- [22:14]
B
People that, like, at this time, I mean, they're. They're huge in the media world. But, you know, kids don't. Like, I didn't. I didn't care much about it, but it was like, I knew that they were important, especially at the time. So I'm like, these are. These are photos that you should have. And. And I'm. Yeah, I'm sitting and just sitting down with them, and they're very warm to me.
- [22:34]
A
I mean, the idea of you being a hockey fan, by the way, and you being around for 94.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And the Rangers win the Stanley cup in seven games.
- [22:44]
B
That was the most important thing for us. We didn't wind up going to any other playoff games because I think because I, like, conflicts with. With sports and hockey and Little League. But when they made it to the finals, my d. It a point to make sure that we were going to those games. And we went to game one, Game five, and game seven, all without a ticket. For game one, I sat in the press area. Game five, it was an open seat. Like, that was kind of like center ice is. And then game seven, I sat glass. And I'm in so many Getty Images. And also I'm in the Rangers, like, Stanley cup video where I was able to, like, own in on myself. And, like, I see the shirt that I'm wearing, but it was incredible. And my dad and I, again, not sitting together at all during these games, I'm with random. I'm with a random family.
- [23:30]
A
The idea that you're like, you're living your own version of Home alone.
- [23:34]
B
Yeah.
- [23:34]
A
Just like in Madison Square Garden is ridiculous.
- [23:37]
B
For sure. I never went to another championship game since. But it was the most electric thing that I've ever experienced in my entire life. Being in the Garden Rangers clinching after not. You know, I'm not winning it for 54 years and finally doing it. And after the game, I went into Locker room. And I interviewed players on the Canucks, the losing team. And then I went right into the Rangers locker room, watch him celebrate the Cup. I know. He made. My dad made me go in there first to see the losers.
- [24:13]
A
That is cruel.
- [24:15]
B
Yeah.
- [24:15]
A
To the Canucks.
- [24:16]
B
I know, I know, I know. And they had. And they had to put on a happy face.
- [24:19]
A
Right. As this kid comes around, is like, what's your favorite food? And he's like, I just lost. Lost the Stanley Cup.
- [24:24]
B
Right, right.
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A
Games.
- [24:25]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. These guys were just, like, standing there all depressed, of course. And my dad's just snapping photos like he loved it, but. But then we go into the Rangers locker room and, you know, they're just. It's so joyous. And they're drinking from the Cup. And I remember Alexei Kovalov, who's a great player, and I think he was a rookie that season, but he was just wasted. And I'm just seeing. I'm. I'm 11 years old and I'm like, just seeing this. I'm like, this is just an experience that no other kid has ever had. No. Of going not only both locker rooms, but of course, sneaking in and. And being somewhere where you're not supposed to be. And then after that game, after. After being in the locker room, the Rangers go up to celebrate in the Garden for their after party. And my dad and I, we shuffle our way there, and this is the first time he was ever stopped. He was. They told him that we couldn't go in because we just had press passes. And it was just.
- [25:13]
A
I was gonna say, like, yeah, so far. I should establish that, like, normal Sports Illustrated, like, adult version of Sports Illustrated reporters.
- [25:21]
B
Yeah.
- [25:21]
A
They're not necessarily getting the access you have gotten so far.
- [25:24]
B
Right.
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A
Let alone, like, to where you're trying to go next.
- [25:27]
B
Yeah. And now we're trying to get into this after party and they're not letting us in. And my. My dad's, like, trying to figure out a way to. To. To get us in. And this guy comes up to him and he asks him, he goes, do you have a roll of film? And my dad goes, yeah, I have a roll of film. If you could get my son into the after party. So then my dad gives him the roll of film. This guy takes my hand and walks me into this after party. And my dad somehow gets in maybe like 10 minutes later. Somehow, I don't know how, but he figures out a way to get in.
- [25:58]
A
And says, my son has my tickets.
- [26:00]
B
Yeah. I go in there and I had a hat that I wanted signed by the four all stars of the Rangers that year is Adam Graves, Mike Richter, Brian Leach and Mark Messier, of course. So I got, I got them all signed and, and then I left him. I probably went home that morning at like 4 or 5 in the morning and then I had school the next day. So I go in and can't say anything to anybody.
- [26:19]
A
What is it like to be in class having just done that? I assume you've like, you're on very little sleep and you're still high off of, for sure off of the, the second hand alcoholism that's going on in that locker room.
- [26:33]
B
Well, I can't say a thing to anybody, but yet I'm living this life, you know, the teacher saying whatever. But I remember I'm just having kind of like this, this outer body experience where it was like I was just in the most amazing setting I've ever experienced in my entire life. Watching like the energy of the Garden, of the Rangers winning the cup, going the locker room, seeing this thing, one that I can't share. But like I'm like the world to me the world was like a different thing. I'm like, you could get places by doing the things that my dad and I did.
- [27:18]
A
I guess a question that I should have asked already but is seemingly important to how this all goes. Did you ever run into the actual Sports Illustrated for Kids reporters?
- [27:28]
B
So it was at the, the Jordan game. That's where it happened. So when Jordan, the game that I met Michael Jordan at, It was in 1995 and it was his fifth game back in the NBA after he retired to play baseball and then came back. So right after his first comeback and everybody wanted to be at this game. This was the biggest, this was, this was as big as the Stanley cup, really.
- [27:53]
A
Oh yeah. It was the resurrection. And that day has arrived. 21 months have passed since Michael Jordan last played competitive basketball. For 21 months, the NBA day was without its supreme artist. There may be many interesting peripheral aspects to both his departure and return, but at the heart of it is simply this. The best in the world is back.
- [28:16]
B
People thought Jordan was done and that we're never going to see Jordan play again. And he comes back to the garden wearing number 45. And you know, my dad, he, he didn't love sports as much as I did. He wasn't, he wasn't keeping in touch with what was going on in the news. And, and I saw that the Knicks were playing the Bulls. I'd read the newspaper every day and I saw the Knicks were playing the Bulls. And then I asked my dad, I'm like, can we go to this game? And the day of, he makes arrangements for us to get press passed. And I can only imagine how difficult that must have been because so much press was there.
- [28:47]
A
Yes.
- [28:48]
B
We arrived that day at the Garden, and this is the first time ever this, this happened. But the real Sports Illustrated for Kids was there to, to interview Michael Jordan. You know, Scotty, you know, Phil Jackson, of course. And they were there, and my dad made it a point for us to talk to them. He. He knew that they were there, and he didn't lead on to say that we were Sports Illustrated for Kids, but he wanted to get their information, learn a little bit more about what they were doing.
- [29:16]
A
So you guys go up to the people that most other scammers would.
- [29:19]
B
Yeah.
- [29:21]
A
Avoid.
- [29:21]
B
Yep. He. Yeah, he had no fear. And he used their, you know, got their information, maybe got a couple names from them. I don't remember the exact conversation, but I know we got a business card from them and we walk away. And, you know, when, when you talk to Sports Social, I'm just standing there, I'm like, I don't want to give up the fact that, like, I could. I'm not as good of a liar as my dad, but he's talking, he has. He has no worries that I could say something that. That's not, you know, corroborating his story. Yeah, but he's just. He has no problem, talks to them, then we walk away and, you know, game goes on and Jordan puts up. It's his famous double nickel game. Gotta witness, gotta witness history.
- [30:02]
A
Jordan working on Starks.
- [30:05]
B
Got him in the air.
- [30:07]
A
Michael Jordan, that's 55. He had a work for them. I can't. I mean, that's unbelievable.
- [30:15]
B
It was unbelievable. I still remember images from that game. And I'm, you know, I'm 11, 12 years old at that time. And then the game ends and everybody bum rushes to the press, Bum rushes to get into that locker room. And one of the things my dad always did was he took pictures of the security guards and he took pictures of me with the security guards. So they knew who we were. Because we've been, at this point, we've probably been to over 30, 30, 40 games at the Garden.
- [30:42]
A
Wait, wait, wait. So your dad this whole time had also been charming the security?
- [30:47]
B
Oh, completely. Yeah. Because you never know when you're gonna need someone's help. So they warmed up to him just like everybody else did. And when they saw us, they weren't going to be the, the ones to say no to us because they've been friendly with us the entire time. They gave us the go ahead to, to go through to the Bulls locker room where everybody wanted to go. And the Sports Illustrated for Kids guys. And again, they're adults, right, by the way.
- [31:12]
A
Yeah, yeah, the grownups.
- [31:13]
B
Yeah, they're grown ups. So they are at the back of the line with everybody else just not able to get in. And my dad and I, we go in and we're waiting around trying to, you know, see who we could get, you know, autographs from, interviews from. And I met Scotty, I met Phil Jackson. And my dad, I don't know who he talked to, but he talked to somebody. And that person led us into a private room where Michael was. So I walk into this room, it's my dad and Michael Jordan just sitting down. And I sit right next to Michael Jordan and I ask him my question.
- [31:46]
A
Questions and, and, and your pivotal number one. Yeah. Your pivotal question which was.
- [31:50]
B
Yeah, what's your favorite food?
- [31:52]
A
And he said, yeah.
- [31:53]
B
And he said, and he goes, steak. And I'm like, boom, nailed it. And got the autograph card. And I was wearing Fela sneakers for some reason. Big mistake. And he goes, you know, you got it. You should be wearing Nikes at that moment. I was like, I think back to everything I could have said, which would have been like, like, can you give me a pair? That would have been like the ideal thing. But I didn't.
- [32:16]
A
Because you have journalistic ethics.
- [32:17]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then my dad snapped those photos and we walked out. And as we're walking out and leaving the garden, we see the Sports Illustrator for Kids guys and they're still trying to get in.
- [32:27]
A
Yeah. I realize now suddenly that I should not be laughing because I'm really laughing at myself. As someone who did the job of Sports Illustrator for Kids grown up reporter at one point.
- [32:37]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [32:37]
A
But the access just for people who don't understand this, being in the private back, back room with Michael Jordan after he drops 55 in his first game. Back is not a place that normal reporters, veteran reporters are getting access to.
- [32:51]
B
Right.
- [32:52]
A
It's unbelievable how this thing, I mean, it sounds like the one night where it seems like, oh, we might be going to prison.
- [33:01]
B
Yeah.
- [33:02]
A
Because we've run into the people we're impersonating actually results in like the greatest scam that you guys pulled off in this.
- [33:09]
B
Yeah. And not only that, the coolest thing that I, I realized was, and it wasn't until later, I interviewed a sports editor from. From si, this guy Mark Bechtel.
- [33:20]
A
Oh, I know Bechtel. Yeah, he's one of my editors.
- [33:21]
B
Oh, yeah, Great guy. And we were trying to get a time frame of like. So I told him, you know, when I met Michael, and he says, so you met him in, in 1995? Well, back in. In 94, he stopped taking interviews with Sports Illustrated because of Bag it, Michael. Bag it, Michael.
- [33:39]
A
So for people who don't remember this part, Sports Illustrated put Michael Jordan on the COVID Yeah. When he was playing for the Birmingham Barons, minor league baseball. And it said, bag it, Cabba. Michael, like, give up.
- [33:50]
B
Yeah. Completely crapped on him. And he took such offense to that that he said that he would never take another interview with Sports Illustrated again. And he kept his word up until I met him. So I was. I was technically the last person to ever interview Michael Jordan for Sports Illustrated. But it wasn't even really for Sports Illustrated.
- [34:11]
A
Oh, my God. Yeah, I was gonna ask. And I should have asked this question too, earlier probably. What was your mom thinking throughout all of this?
- [34:19]
B
I mean, she sees the joy that it's bringing me, and that's a tough thing to be in a position of where she knows her husband is being dishonest and she knows that it's definitely teaching her, her son some unethical things. But it's bringing me happiness. I'm getting to meet people that I wouldn't get to normally meet. My dad didn't, from what I saw, he didn't have the means to buy these tickets. He didn't have the means to pay for an autograph for, you know, Michael Jordan. He had to figure out a way to do it. And it really put me around people that were successful that, that kids don't really get to see. So I saw, you know, you're meeting Shaq, you're meeting, you know, Cindy Crawford, Richard Gere. You're meeting really people at the height of their careers.
- [35:04]
A
You're crawling inside of a television in an era when television, seeing these people, it was not like it is now.
- [35:10]
B
Yeah.
- [35:11]
A
You don't have access to people on social media. Like, this was like truly meeting real life superheroes.
- [35:16]
B
Yeah. And yeah, you don't think that you'll ever have a chance to be side by side with them. And then you do, and it kind of gives you like this special feeling that maybe you're different, maybe you could accomplish things and be like them. But, you know, I'm around all these people. I'm like, I'm also around my dad, who's also great, but for different reasons of being great at something that I wasn't necessarily proud of, but he was, you know, someone that really was spectacular what he was doing.
- [35:44]
A
Yeah. When I hear you remember this stuff, I see the entanglement of all of it. The idea that, like, I love this. This was like, the truly, like, a child's dream to do everything you did, and at the same time feeling like I shouldn't be proud of this on some level, that it. That the access you got was born of a. A. An obvious now, in retrospect lie.
- [36:10]
B
Yeah. And I'm, you know, I'm watching my dad do all this stuff, and, you know, as I got older, I'm like, well, you're putting so much effort into these lies. You could have done that in an honest way, too, and still been successful.
- [36:22]
A
All.
- [36:23]
B
All the smarts that it took to come up with these schemes. You could have used that to your advantage to. To really become something positive. But. But this is what, you know, he. He got joy in these lies. It wasn't until I wound up having a son of my own, and it just so happened to be that the Last Dance documentary came out at the same time where I'm like, you know, I have my son the last day. I'm like, maybe I should just, like, it's been 24 years. Maybe I should just, like, tell people, like, this experience that I had and see the reaction. And I just posted some of that I was able to dig up, and it just, like, it really got, like, a positive response, and it started making me think about, like, what is my dad doing now?
- [37:19]
A
When did you stop doing the Sports Illustrated for Kids scam?
- [37:22]
B
Yeah, well, I. I stopped doing it when time I did it, I was about to be close to 15, so it was.
- [37:30]
A
Oh, wow. You were pushing the envelope.
- [37:32]
B
I know. Well, so fortunately for me, I looked pretty young when I. When I was, you know, going into my teenage years. So that definitely helped to. To extend it a little bit. But, yeah, it stopped because you just want to stop lying. You want to meet. You really want to meet people for the person that you are instead of posing as something else. So you feel, you know, you started feeling like, oh, it's cool. But then as. As time went on, oh, I'm an imposter. And that doesn't feel great. Yeah.
- [37:59]
A
When did it sort of dawn on you that you were also being used? Because, of course, as you're feeling all of these, like, joyous euphoric feelings there's also the reality that, like, oh, right, I'm also, I'm also getting my dad something here. And maybe that's the point when we're.
- [38:19]
B
Going to all these games and you know, I go back to him saying that he wasn't my dad. It's like, like I, you want to have some sort of bond with him when you're having these experiences and where he's not saying he's my father. We're not sitting together and we're, we're not talking about how great the game was either. We're talking about how great the con was. So it's like these were the things that, that he loved and it seemed to override really what the, the experience should be with like a father and son at one of these sporting events, sense. And yeah, that kind of just, you know, takes a toll on you.
- [38:55]
A
When was the last time you guys had spoken?
- [38:58]
B
24 years. So no, no contact, no text or emails or anything like that. I made the decision that, you know, the lies and the, the cons became like too much, that it was just never ending and I couldn't be around them anymore. And it wasn't just me. It was, you know, definitely my mom and my sisters too. They had a, they had to break apart too.
- [39:18]
A
Right. And it sounds like in the years since, of course now, 24 years later, you haven't spoken to your dad, as you said, you've been trying to piece together who your dad actually was.
- [39:30]
B
Yeah, like, you know, did I remember everything the way I, I, I think I remember it. And the sports stuff definitely is at the forefront of my memory. And those things I remember very clearly.
- [39:42]
A
But photographs too?
- [39:43]
B
Yeah, yeah, the photographs too. And you know, we, we did it so many times. But yeah, like the other things about learning the cons that, that he pulled that I heard about, I remember people saying like, my dad had a, had a furniture scam going on and like, well, what was it like? Let me learn more about what he did, you know, what's the background? Who was he involved with? You know, he was involved with definitely some like, shady people. And he definitely treads the water of like being around like, you know, mafia style people. And he did a lot of these illegal businesses that, that also would help benefit other people too.
- [40:18]
A
Right. Was, was there one question that you were most invested in having answered?
- [40:23]
B
Yeah, there. So my dad was in, involved in this, a pay phone business and back in the early 90s, you know, it's a very.
- [40:32]
A
90S.
- [40:32]
B
Yeah. Yeah, it's so 90s, but he was involved in a payphone business. So he had different payphones in. In. In various locations throughout Long island and New York City. And. And he travel, and he'd collect money out of the payphones, and he had people that work for him, and he'd also, like, repair phone lines and everything. But his catch was his scam. When this situation was, he was posing as at&t. That's how he was getting all these locations. So every. Every location, if you're a Toys R Us, you're putting the phone in because my father's saying he works for AT&T and he's collecting on these payments. So AT&T eventually gets wind of this, and they have to tell him to shut down his business. He doesn't want to do it. Marshals eventually storm and raid my home.
- [41:12]
A
This is the US Marshals, not the.
- [41:14]
B
Department store, which he also had payphones in, by the way. Not making up. He really did. So. That's funny, bro. That. But, yeah, the U.S. marshals raid our house, and they take a whole bunch of things, and they have a whole bunch of evidence, and eventually my dad's back is. Is against the wall, and this place where they're keeping all the evidence magically just gets broken into and evidence goes missing.
- [41:40]
A
Like Little League equipment.
- [41:41]
B
Exactly like Little League equipment. And nobody knows what happened to it. It. Did he do it? The problem when you're dealing with somebody who has lied so much in their life is that so many mistruths have been told along the way. So you're trying to figure out even, you know, from somebody else's experience, did this actually take place?
- [42:00]
A
Gary, what I am left realizing that I have found out today is that you started your career with your dad as a fake journalist.
- [42:09]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [42:09]
A
And he has turned you over two decades later into a real one.
- [42:14]
B
Somewhat. Yeah.
- [42:15]
A
You're actually reporting a story.
- [42:17]
B
I appreciate you calling me a journalist. I'm definitely. There's investigative reporting, and I'm, like, very sloppy in doing it, but I feel like I. Yeah, I try my best in a fun way to get out the story. That was a very. In a way, fun and tragic time at the same point of going back to my childhood.
- [42:33]
A
Right, but you're searching for the truth.
- [42:36]
B
Right, Searching for the truth. Trying to get a better understanding of my father and. And learning that the goal is to track my dad down and find out what he's been up to after all this time, after 24 years, to hear his side of these things. And is he going to Be that person, be the same person that he was 24 years ago, or has he changed?
- [42:59]
A
Right, right at the end here. What are you left thinking about? You mentioned that you're a dad now. What are you left thinking about how you want to be a, a parent to your son? As, as sports at least is concerned.
- [43:14]
B
The experiences that I had with my dad, I think that they're very memorable, the, the, the sports stuff. So I look at it as like, if I could do the things with my son but take out the negative parts that I didn't like with my dad, that'd be great. If we could go to the game, if we could sit, you know, if we could sit together, if we could watch the game, if we could. If he could just have a love for it without me being so involved. And my dad, you know, was very over the top. If he, you know, not be a coach, but just watch from the sidelines, but be supportive. These are the things that I would want to have my son experience just because I, that's what I wanted. And, you know, but also listen to him, listen to what he actually wants. You know, maybe he doesn't want to play sports, and that's fine too, but either way, I would really listen to him, listen to what he wants because I didn't feel like my dad was always listening to, to my needs.
- [44:04]
A
Gary Veder, it was really good to listen to you.
- [44:06]
B
Thank you.
- [44:07]
A
Thank you for doing this.
- [44:07]
B
Thanks for having me, Pablo.
- [44:17]
A
And for more on Gary Veder's ongoing investigation into his own father and us himself, you can go listen to his new podcast series, Number One dad, which just came out this week. But as for us, any good episode is like a good con. It requires a team. And Pablo Torre finds out is produced by Michael Antonucci, Walter Alvaroma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, neely Loman, Rob McRae, Rachel Miller, Howard Ethan Schreier, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Chris Tominelo and Juliet Warren. Our studio engineering by RG Systems. Our sound design by NGW Post, our theme song by John Bravo. And I am going on an international mission next week, but stay tuned. We'll have something for you on Tuesday.