← Pablo Torre Finds Out
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're going to find out what this sound is. All right, we have our annual NFL Day drinking day. No, just doing our little hey, hey, hey. Right after this. Ad leadership used to mean having all the answers, but today's best leaders embody a more human approach.
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I'm Jack Myers.
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And I'm Tim Spangler.
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Tim and I have spent our careers inside media, marketing and culture and we
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start Lead Human to answer one simple question. What does it really look like to lead in this AI dominated world? The biggest tip for being a creator. It's a job. What I learned from Michael Jackson. Here's a man who understands precision. It's about answering the questions that are hard, not about answering a bunch of teed up questions that are fake.
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What we're looking for are real stories and practical advice that you can use with your teams right away.
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Subscribe to Lead Human with Jack Meyers and Tim Spencer Spengler wherever you get your podcasts.
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A better help add. Hold on one second. I just need to. What if you had a room where no one interrupts? No notifications, no expectations, just space to talk with. BetterHelp therapy happens in a space that's yours. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy. We're gonna call this a sporting class today, just you and me.
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B
Really?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Are we gonna tell John? Well, it feels like we're cheating.
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A
I know. Well, that's okay. I think you've just given us the most organic segue to how I wanted to start this because I have been inundated with as the guy who does investigative journalism with calls to investigate Diana Rossini and this is a story that, as I put on Twitter, at some point, I have been making calls about. And you've addressed this on your show at length. Dan Levatard, our friend and our boss. On some level, he is deeply uncomfortable with talking about this because he has disclosed a friendship with Diana. But I also, in this attempt to be transparent, I want to disclose my conflicts. You're talking, David, to me on a show that is a part of the Athletic podcast network. Diana, until she resigned recently, was of course, an employee of the Athletic. Their NFL Insider. I am represented at caa, where Diana is represented. I worked with Diana at espn. I don't really know her that well. I've run into her a couple of times. We are not friends.
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B
Are you acquaintances?
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A
Absolutely.
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B
Okay.
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A
If we saw each other at an event, and if I still saw her at an event today or any other day in the future, I would say hello, and I would not have any sort of hesitance about that. But she might, depending on how she takes what I'm about to say, because it's uncomfortable to be a public person in this regard. As an alleged cheating scandal with the most famous photos in recent sports media history.
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B
Wow. Give me a minute on that. Yep, we're gonna call them the most famous photos in recent sports history.
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A
Sports media.
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B
Okay, okay.
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A
A separate. A separate take. A separate take. Foreign. It's been astonishing how much traction this has gotten since it broke in the New York Post. And to you, David, as I've talked to you off air about this, it became pretty clear that we should talk about the alleged affair as a concept in the ways that it informs, I think, a larger exploration of the dynamic underneath the surface, behind the curtain. But also, you're kind of bored by the premise of, like, oh, great, an affair that's boring.
- [04:47]
B
When you've been in the sports world for as long as I've been in. And when you come from Wall street, where I was before, affairs are not really something that anyone cares about, but everyone loves to gossip about. It is one of the great glass house syndromes that exists in the business world, where people talk about it while they live in a glass house or have lived in a glass house at one point or another. And when you travel with the baseball team, you have to become numb to it, because if you're too moral, truthfully, you can't function. And that makes me feel badly sometimes, but not often.
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A
We already have arrived at the difference between working in sports and journalistically covering sports, because there is a code of ethics in the World of journalism. There is not a code of ethics around this subject, so to speak, in the world of allegedly sleeping with journalists, there is.
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B
We had a set of rules.
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A
You came up with them.
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B
No, I actually inherited these. These are long standing rules.
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Not the commissioner's office. This is the Marlins.
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B
This is wherever I've been. Where you were the Expos and then the Marlins.
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You're the president of the team.
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It was just a very simple rule. My view, and I've spoken to players about this a lot. There's ample opportunity. Just be very careful. And this was the same rule on Wall Street. Ample opportunity. Try not to where you eat, because when you do that, it causes a mess that I would have to clean up. And what I would say to players is, I don't want to clean up that mess. I want you to live your life. And I'm not going to judge. But don't make it so that I have to get involved. Where sideline reporters get involved, where cheerleaders get involved, Player wives. I've had that.
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A
What do you mean?
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B
I've had a player wife cheat with the teammate.
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Oh.
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B
So I've had that. And that creates. I just don't want. Mess. I don't want.
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And you know me well, Marie Kondo of player infidelity.
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B
That's exactly. So listen. And I tell them that I am not ever going to tell you what to do. I'm just going to ask you not to involve my time because I don't have a lot of it.
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A
Right. The variable you're trying to restrain is time, which is not to say this is a judgment on an ethical basis.
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B
It is not.
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It is a business practice.
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B
So simply put and so perfectly put, it is exactly that. So the issue comes when something in your orbit expands to other people's orbit. That's what you try to avoid.
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A
Well, the thing that everybody wishes they could have avoided was the New York Post. And I want to explain how this broke, because again, I'm a journalist, you're the former team president. Different sides of this aisle, but both of us trying to discern, decode what's actually happening here. And the way this broke was in the New York Post. And I want to get to private investigation as an industry because you are familiar personally with that industry and I am fascinated by that. We've been reporting in other episodes, one connected to the New York Knicks, the premise of private investigation as a tool in sports and beyond, in politics, certainly. But the whole thing of. There are high quality photographs of Diana Rossini and Mike Frabel on a roof at an adult only retreat hotel in Sedona, which is a beautiful location that was captured in high definition. You know, the photographs are good, but immediately I'm like, does the fact that they were taken with a professional seeming camera indicate something? Or is it also entirely plausible that people bring nice cameras to a place like Sedona and so not dispositive, is my point. I don't think the quality of the photographs tells us.
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Agree, not relevant.
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Is this a professional? Because we live in the era of cell phones in which all these things are high. Definitely. However, here's what's interesting. So TMZ was offered these photographs first. Or at the very least, they were offered these photographs and learned that the New York Post had published them first. I want to explain the backstory. Why? Because I've confirmed this part and some of this has been reported elsewhere. And I want to just make sure that people who have not been deep in the lore on this understand that I am told a woman provided these photographs to TMZ and they did not name Diana Rossini.
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B
They did name Mike Vrabel, though they
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did identify the NFL head coach with a woman who's not his wife, I am told. And the price requested was indeed four figures. And tmz, to their shame, I think in retrospect, they weren't super interested. But by the time they figured out that the other woman interlocking fingers on this roof with this sunset in the backdrop was in fact Diana Rossini, a day or so later, the tipster in question, I am told, had seemingly already made a deal with the New York Post.
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B
So I love that there was a moral part to this that the person said, I already have a deal with the Post, so I can't go back to TMZ and get a higher offer. I love that.
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A
But here are the details and here's the question. If you were a private investigator hired on behalf of one of their spouses, which is a common rumor in this story, and I have no proof, by the way, that that is the case, would that be how you weaponized these photos for me?
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B
When you find something and you want to monetize it, the biggest thing you have to do is understand the value of what you found. And so the person who took the photos is moronic, because how do you not find out who both parties are? And you don't stop it. Just the NFL head coach, you have to find out, because if that woman is monetizable, you have lost that ability. If you sell it before you have done the work. And that seems to be, if what you're saying is true, which is what you're saying and what I've read, that is just a poor job of monetizing the photos because once you have both parties who are recognizable, it makes the scandal larger, more interesting to a more diverse group of people, which is a higher price.
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A
What does that say to you about the possibility then, that this was taken by a private investigator?
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The private investigator would have had information already. Because when. When you hire a private investigator and
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have you hired a private investigator?
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B
I have hired a private investigator, yes. And in order to hire a private investigator, there's a question. The first question, after you do price, the first question, is it cost? Well, it depends what you're asking them to do, because there's travel, there's. If you're asking them to fly somewhere, you have to pay, like their lawyers for transportation to the airport.
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A
Is it hourly?
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B
It's hourly. Oh, it is hourly, yes.
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So there's a legal billable hours.
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You can negotiate a flat rate. But my experience has been hourly.
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So I want to introduce the other possibility, which is another guest who's like, oh, there's that giant guy I know from watching America's most famous television show, the NFL. I'm going to Google his wife. I'm going to find that she has blonde hair. I'm going to look at the woman who turned out to be Diana Rossini and say, that's not his wife. They're interlocking fingers. I think I got something. What does this run for on the open market? Who can I give this to? You get to how they get to TMZ, to the post and being like guessing $5,000 question mark.
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B
That's tough for me because it's a pretty exclusive hotel in the middle of a felt. It's not as though it's walking down the street of New York City where you could just happen up on something that, oh, could I monetize that? This, to me, had more purpose.
- [12:19]
A
But it's interesting. Another thing I've confirmed is that Diana Rossini did not provide any other photographs that had been requested by pretty much everybody, not just the Internet, but certainly the New York Post, the Athletic, her employer, to indicate that her initial story, the story that she has stuck by, which is that others were there. It was a friends trip. And Vrabel is of course, someone she's quite friendly with. And this is not what it looks like. This is not an affair. This is a bunch of buddies hanging out at the pool on the roof. And this is where I should say a couple of things. Number one, we are independently produced by Meadowlark Media and distributed by the Athletic. And the views, research and reporting expressed in this episode are solely those Apollo Torre finds out and do not reflect the work or editorial input of the Athletic or its journalists. And by the way, to the Athletic's credit, they have not told me personally a single thing about what not to cover or to cover with this story. So just to be very transparent about
- [13:14]
B
that, well, that would make it way worse if they called you and said, by the way, hands off this.
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A
But, but listen, this is the thing that became clear to me from afar as soon as those photographs did not emerge, which is that it became impossible for Diana Rossini to credibly do her job as an NFL insider. That doing the job of I'm going to report on the NFL would be, as a credibility issue, impossible.
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B
Can a person at Morgan Stanley date someone who works at Goldman Sachs?
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A
The idea, to be fair to Diana, of what it means to credibly do your job, to do your job as a journalist, an insider with credibility, is a worthy discussion because there are lots of other ways to compromise your integrity. That an insider in sports, a sports journalist is uncompromised by their sources and so long as they don't have an affair with them, is farcical. It runs the gamut. You're just friends with them, You've been to their weddings. You've been on family trips with the general manager of the team who's breaking news to you. You even advise front office executives on trades sometimes. And by the way, all of that, that's all stuff I've heard over decades.
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B
I've experienced it. Because when I give an insider a piece of information, I want something back. It's a trade.
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A
Of course you do.
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B
So that is very normal. Have you ever seen when a manager gets fired and then all of a sudden there's a list of candidates for that position? Do you think that list comes out of, like, the ether? It's, it's, it's. The media insider says, oh, I've got the perfect fit for the manager for this team or the general manager. No, it comes from, hey, I. I get information from this person, and in return, I add this person to a list of candidates. And the reason I know this is that as a president of a team and having fired a gazillion managers, there was always a list of people who were candidates, and we never interviewed them. We never even considered them. And I laughed, thinking, oh, I understand why that person's a candidate because that person is giving information to the person in the media. And I am not impugning that. Any member of the media. That's how the business is done. Tell me about a trade or a signing. Give it to me first. And by the way, when it comes time to advance your career, I'll make sure that you are in the conversation.
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A
But here's the thing about the monastic rules of journalism. It's how do you define consistently by a letter of some law what it is to betray the trust of your public in order to service a source and therefore yourself? Right. The public interest is and again, I don't think there is spoiler alert. A constitution that everyone agrees on here. And there are codes of ethics that vary from outlet to outlet, publication to publication. All of that makes this very, very messy. And journalism has done a terrible job across the board of communicating why and how. But I want to give one example of what a very established and in this case very notably male NFL insider, a direct competitor to Diana Rossini, might be doing out in public that could cause in any journalism ethics conversation, a real question. And it takes us to the very same week when Diana Rossini's photos were taken. We're going to now, three days after that, actually. This is March 31, 2026, at the Hotel the Biltmore, where the NFL owners meetings were happening. And this is what Jay Glaser put on Twitter for millions upon millions of people to see. All right, we have our annual NFL Coaching Day drinking day. Oh, just doing our little hey, hey, hey. Whisper right there, bro. Michael Phelps over there. Is that who else we have over here? Hey, no, he's the third best coach. Here we go. Hey, who is that? Oh, it's on the thing. Yeah, he's a good coach now. Smashing machine. Marker right over here. So that's Jay Glazer, NFL Insider, saying this is the tweet caption People who aren't watching the video. One of my favorite days of the year, our 18th annual NFL head Coaches Day drinking day at the NFL owners meeting. I started this with Mike Tomlin 18 years ago. Yes, we raised a glass to him. Parentheses to get the head coach fraternity to bond together, bounce things off each other, ask each other for advice and to celebrate how cool life is together. Leaders take care of everybody else, but who takes care of the leaders? This is a cool way to bond so these leaders can all take care of each other. Trying to make it less lonely at the top. Oh, and the stories that are shared are classic. We had 28 of 32 coaches show, and then it goes on. And McVeigh apparently picked up the bill because as a side note, everyone always asks, who picks up the bill. McVeigh did it this year. It's all immediately, like, not allowed by any sort of journalism school code of ethics. But I should point out 2.6 million views on that, 10,000 likes as far as I can tell. No immediate eruption of how dare you, Compromising your integrity, favoring your friends, all of that.
- [18:55]
B
What is Glazer's job? His job is to go on TV every single weekend and give the betting audience information they can have in order to bet or to help them with fantasy or to just give them information that they can pretend they know as firsthand so they can be cool when they're talking to other people on a Monday morning. That's his job. His job doesn't change because of his relationships with these coaches. As a matter of fact, his audience would say, I need you to have these relationships with these coaches.
- [19:27]
A
So something that I want to do, vocabulary wise, is point out that I don't believe Jay Glazer would call himself a journalist. I believe Jay Glazer has a title of insider. And part of his currency, his actual upfront credibility is, look at everybody that I know. I mean, he's a. He's an MMA trainer. He trains players like his network of sources are his friends and clients.
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B
Is Diana a journalist or an insider, or can you be both?
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A
I think the entire premise of her job was that she was both. And that, in fact, insider has been, until perhaps recent days, synonymous often with journalists.
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B
Not to us, not in the industry.
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A
But I think there are some insiders who would object to the fact that, how dare you say I'm not a journalist? And also for most fans, they don't know the difference.
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B
They don't need to know.
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A
But I want to sort of make this more specific because the gender part of this, right? So let's just do the thought experiment which I was doing as I was watching this, and I was looking for a good example. I was like, is it Schefter? Is it Woj? Is it? And I came upon the Glazer video. And so there are many other potential examples, to be clear. But this video, imagine if poolside, it was not Jay Glaser, but Diana Rossini with 28 of 32 NFL head coaches day drinking immediately, right? Part of the frustration, both by, I can imagine a Diana Rossini and by other female self identified journalists who in real life have really resented the ones that I've talked to have resented the implication that this is standard practice. What Diane is accused of among female journalists, it's just different to be a woman doing this job in sports. And it can be unfair to the point of all of this being an aggravating factor.
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B
What if Jay had been with 28 women?
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A
So immediately I was like, good luck finding a sport with that many female coaches.
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B
Yeah, I made up the number. But, but, but I think we're talking gender.
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A
So I presented to you the hypothetical of what if Jay Glazer was in fact a woman? What if it was Diana Rossini? Here is a thing that I was told while making calls and two sources with direct knowledge of this have confirmed it to me. So that pool where Jay Glazer was hosting, all of those NFL head coaches and others across the way of that same pool was Diana Rossini and Mike Vrabel. And what she was doing, I am told, was effectively trying to host a rival office Christmas party.
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B
Were the other four coaches there? Is that why I was 28?
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A
It was Diana Rossini, it was Mike Vrabel among the cabanas and a few other head coaches.
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B
Well, there can only be four total.
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A
So I don't have, I don't have the James Dolan surveillance camera data on who was going when and where. But I can tell you that part of what the game is that Diana Rossini was trying to play was, what if I do the thing that Jay Glazer does quite successfully, how can I build my own party and build a network of sources? Because what no one has ever denied or objected to is the ambition of Diana Rossini and trying to compete at this insane, crazy making job of insider.
- [22:58]
B
It's soul crushing to have to compete both as a woman, but also as a man. Anyone who's new trying to become an insider, it's crushing. You know this as a journalist trying to get sources that are not giving to anyone but you an exclusive source.
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A
Oh, man, it can drive you insane. It can make you lose grip on whatever you think your principles once were.
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B
I love the ingenuity of trying to build your business because that's what insiders need to do, is cultivate relationships in order to get information first.
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A
Now, the thing that happened that day at the pool, March 31, 2026 at the Biltmore, is that all of these head coaches across the pool and their wives, I am told, started talking about Frable and Rossini and this was before, days before the photos broke in the New York Post, which is to say, also a thing I found out is that their friendship was not breaking news to the people at the NFL owners meetings. They all knew that, in fact, they were out front together at this other competing, aspirational party. And so this is where I do just need to point out that New England Patriots head coach Mike Vrabel, that guy who took the Patriots to the super bowl this past February, decided to speak for the first time this past week after the photos that blew up his life were released. And he did not confess or admit to anything in specific. But his lack of specificity, I would say, conveyed something pretty clearly.
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B
Shame.
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A
You know, I've had some difficult conversations with people that I care about, with my family, the organization, the coaches, the players.
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B
Those have been positive and productive. You know, we believe in order to
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A
be successful on and off the field, you have to make good decisions.
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B
That includes me. That starts with me. We never want our actions to negatively affect the team. We never want to be the cause of a distraction.
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A
You know, and what I.
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B
Those are comments and questions that I've
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A
answered for the team and with the team.
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B
We'll keep those private and, you know, to ourselves.
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A
I care deeply about this football team,
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B
and I'm excited to coach them.
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A
Late Wednesday night after that presser, Frable then told ESPN that he would not be with New England for day three of tomorrow's NFL draft, which was confusing to, I think, everybody else because he wasn't missing day one or day two of the draft, but specifically day three because he was seeking counseling. This was Rabel's quote to espn. I believe this is what I have to do to be the best husband, father and coach that I possibly can be. End quote. And all of this immediately made this an even bigger story, raising so many more questions among Boston sports fans, because this story now was directly impacting the team making the mess that David Sampson had advised that you not make. But on Thursday, the other shoe dropped, helping explain perhaps what happened on Wednesday. And we return now again to the New York Post, which published a story with this headline, diana Rossini and married Mike Vrabel caught kissing at NYC Bar. In bombshell, new photos taken six years before scandal. And in this story, you can see a series of photos of Rossini and Rabel doing what I think can be fairly described as canoodling, their faces really close together, her legs sort of positioned in between his legs as they're sitting on bar stools. And this is reported to be a Relatively empty bar in Manhattan. And so for at least the time being, that's where we are. That's how the Patriots are trying to navigate this scandal. More to come on that. But as for the journalism side of the equation, where I come from, there is another fair question, I think, when it comes to how all of this
- [27:16]
B
looks, is that up to the standards of the athletic?
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A
So according to the athletic's official editorial guidelines, no, not as far as I can tell. And I'll just quote them here. Quote, to maintain the highest form of authority, we should avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest and reveal those sources or affiliations that may put into question our ability to be credible. End quote.
- [27:37]
B
But you know what? As a consumer of information, I don't draw the line where the New York Times draws the line. So I get information from plenty of people who operate outside the line of the New York Times and I don't care. I base it on the veracity of the outside the line work that takes done and can I rely on it to help me do what I want to do.
- [27:58]
A
And I would say that a journalist as this profession with a code of some kind, the decision that journalism has made as a premise is the best way to provide information reliably and to win the trust of the public and to be the closest thing you can be to an honest impartial broker is to subject yourself to these rules.
- [28:19]
B
I don't agree, Paulo. I hear you and you sound so high and mighty and, and it's not even true you think the New York Times the way is so impartial. I'm just curious, like, is that their reputation many.
- [28:30]
A
There are so many examples of the fallibility and the failure and the betrayal of the standards that I'm talking about. And I hope that when I say these words about like the code, it's not with a tut tutting high and mighty. I am at the elevation level of the Mount Everest of journalism. It is actually with the almost sad recognition that I don't think you're alone. I think most people don't give a and it's a competitive disadvantage. It is a competitive disadvantage in the marketplace. And so the only way to make it into something advantageous is to explain why this code on balance is worth respecting.
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B
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- [31:22]
A
So this brings us back to the idea of a private investigator because they're also in the ecosystem. There are the investigators with a journalistic code. There are the PIs who often are who, David, what's their background?
- [31:35]
B
Typically, some of them are former detectives. Some of them have no training whatsoever except the ability to follow someone or to do Internet research on someone. You can get like a high profile PI and it's like going to a white shoe law firm. Oh yeah, or you can get sort of a guy from the yellow pages that sort of dates me, but someone who's very cheap. And you generally in PI work, get what you pay for.
- [32:01]
A
I like the idea of you tearing off a tab on a lamppost being like, I'm gonna ask this guy, investigate my wife. But this now takes us to Madison Square Garden. And so something that I left out of the episode that we did about the Garden and its surveillance state is a story that involves a practice that as you can attest, is more common in sports among sports owners than people realize, which is the hiring of private eyes. And so this story, I gotta recap it here. It happened because in early 2003, the New York State Liquor Authority was threatening to take away beer at Madison Square Garden. And you know this story personally because you've covered it on. Nothing personal, but to explain, I lived it.
- [32:40]
B
I was running the Marlins.
- [32:41]
A
Okay, okay. I want to get to that, because in this case, there was facial recognition technology that was kicking out attorneys from law firms that were engaged in litigation with Madison Square Garden and James Dolan and its assorted properties. And what the New York State Liquor Authority posed was a legal challenge. If you are discriminating against customers, you cannot serve liquor according to New York State law. And so this led to one of the great clips, I would say, in sports media history as well, because it's James Dolan on Fox 5, the Morning show with the local legend Rosanna Scotto. And he does this instead. What we're going to do is where we serve liquor, we're going to put one of these up, which says, if you would like to drink at a game, please call. Right. Sharif Kabir, chief executive officer, or write him an email at this number. Right. And the. And tell him, right. To stick to his knitting and, you know, and to what he's supposed to be doing. And stop. Stop grandstanding and trying to get press the. So, wow, okay.
- [33:48]
B
She gave him the platform.
- [33:50]
A
So that is. That is him doxxing, basically, the CEO of the sla, the, say, Liquor Authority. And also using a phrase that I had never heard until that clip, stick to your knitting.
- [34:00]
B
I'd not heard that either. I'm not a knitter, nor am I a needle pointer. Well, listen, what stolen doing there, he is using the power. And I think that the power that he has is the power that is actually exhibited by all owners. He just does it in a less pleasant, more public way.
- [34:19]
A
So I should say that Sharif Kabir, who's now the former CEO of the sla, he received, as you can imagine, you know, racist messages and beyond. He, at one point, I am told, he had to call the state police on a fan who threatened him. So that's like part of the consequences of when that happens in that way. But the more interesting, germane part to the conversation we've been having about private investigation and who's watching who is that? The Garden? James Dolan reportedly hired a private investigator to follow the state investigator who was looking into Dolan in the Garden and so James Dolan hired a private investigator to follow the former police captain who was investigating him.
- [35:02]
B
The reason you hire a PI is to gain leverage in a negotiation. That's it. You are negotiating a divorce, you're negotiating a buyout, you're negotiating an insurance payment. You're negotiating something. And so what Dolan was negotiating was, I need my liquor license. And by the way, I am not going to give up on the fact that I use facial recognition.
- [35:26]
A
And is therefore, is it possible that this state investigator, this former police captain, is himself exhibiting bias in ways that I can use in some sort of response? And so I should point out that according to Wired, whose reporting we featured on our episode a week ago, a source with knowledge of this says that MSG's own security guys, they refused to do the job of investigating the state investigator. And to quote the source in Wired's article here, quote, trail a law enforcement officer in his duties. Absolutely not. Like that's a step too far. End quote. And so they wound up with somebody else, and somebody else, I am told, followed the police captain. And apparently this, according to the New York Times reporting, eventually the former police captain called the cops on Dolan's private investigator, who was eventually cited for possession of what the New York Times had called, quote, a knife in excess of the permissible length, end quote, Which I also much like. Stick to your knitting, I did not know was even a thing. But the Garden's lawyers, meanwhile, have said that state officials were, quote, harassing the private investigator, that hiring PIs was, quote, common and lawful practice. Which brings us to other examples, David, that you may be familiar with in terms of sports owners having this power.
- [36:48]
B
Well, one of the big ones is in politics with the current ambassador to France and the mishpuka of Donald Trump. Charlie Kushner hired a private investigator.
- [36:59]
A
Oh, my God.
- [37:01]
B
That's Yiddish for they. Their children are married to each other. Charlie Kushner's son is Jared. Donald Trump's daughter is Ivanka, and they are married. And so Charlie Kushner actually hired a private investigator, an Alzheimer, in order to bribe, basically his own brother. He set up a woman to seduce his brother and got pictures of them doing it. And it caused Charlie gave him leverage in a negotiation because there was a business transaction that Charlie needed some help with from a family partnership. To make a long story short, a private investigator can't make someone do something if you're a PI, but you sure as hell can set it up so people are tempted.
- [37:46]
A
So all of this, of course, according to the Department of Justice. And I just need to clarify that that's how you weaponize something. He did not go to the New York Post and offer four figures with those in with that information. He went directly to the place that he needed to have leverage on.
- [38:02]
B
I mean, that's what's laughable is that that's why a PI it for four figures to the New York Post. It wasn't something or tmz. It didn't interest me. A real PI, when you've got a real situation where there's real money involved, not just who's getting inside information from who on who's going to be a head coach. There's millions of dollars at stake, sometimes tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars. And what PIs are doing is they are hired and that's why Wired. And I'm not impugning them and their sources, but I've known security people and I've hired security people, not just at Marlins park, but I also know the people at MSG from all my dec there. And for me, if there's something that they don't want to do, it's something that's not going to be asked of them to do. And that's a subtle difference when you are trying to follow a police captain who's running the state liquor authority. I'm not going to my underlings in the security department. I'm either going to my number one head of security, loyal guy who's going to hire someone and take care of it, or. Or more likely, I'm going outside of that sphere, pun intended. And I am going to hire someone who's not at all related to msg because I'm not going to ask them a question I don't want to hear the answer to. I've done that many times where you figure out how you're going to staff something. It's a staffing question, when you get right down to it, who can do the job that I need to be done in the most economic way and in the most important way to get the job done.
- [39:32]
A
At all points here, I want to point out that what I love about this program is that you are sharing what you would have done in this hypothetical and how and why you would have done it.
- [39:43]
B
Or I'm sharing with you, as president of a team, what goes on inside a stadium that I was a part of building. Or I'm telling you the truth about what's been done inside a sport where I worked for 18 years. You can take it however you'd like. To take it without upsetting your producers.
- [39:59]
A
I think we're just going to Photoshop you onto the OJ If I Did it book cover.
- [40:03]
B
No, it's not about gloves, and it's not saying if I did it. I'm telling you that there's a mystery around what goes on in this. In the business world that I'm trying to uncover to let you know that what you think is so rare or what the audience thinks is so rare is actually super common.
- [40:19]
A
Well, I want to also point out that another sports owner of note who was reportedly a big fan of PIs was Dan Snyder. This was according to Don Vanetta and Seth Waker Sham and tisha Thompson at ESPN. Allegedly, Snyder, in this case, hired these PIs to snoop on his fellow owners, which is to say to bring it all back to politics. Kompromat. Having information that you can leverage for some return is always a consideration.
- [40:48]
B
That is the consideration. Remember, in the Snyder case, that was. He felt he was being forced out. He didn't want to leave. He didn't want to have a forced sale. And in a negotiation, when you're told about a forced sale, because in sports ownership, if you get two thirds of owners to say the sky is red, there's nothing you can do. 23 owners tell you the sky's red, the sky's red.
- [41:07]
A
Right.
- [41:08]
B
And that's it. So you got to get to them before they say the sky is red. And the way you do it is this. He's come. Oh, my God. I've had these conversations with presidents, with owners.
- [41:16]
A
How do you get the votes?
- [41:18]
B
You're getting votes.
- [41:19]
A
No, it's Congress.
- [41:20]
B
That's what you're outdoing.
- [41:21]
A
Politics. Yeah.
- [41:22]
B
So I. I understand that you want it to be very mysterious.
- [41:25]
A
No, I.
- [41:26]
B
But it's not that mysterious.
- [41:27]
A
I actually love the demystification of it and your point of view, and I want to make this even more literal than your point of view. Your actual physical ability to see what was happening at Marlins park debut, you had through the security system because you built the building and you're the president of the team. I mean, can you explain what you had access to as that guy?
- [41:50]
B
I had access where I could see where everyone was at all times. And why is that important? Because I need proof if I am ever compromised. And I don't mean myself personally, though I have a funny story about that. But I'm talking about if there's ever a situation where a fan is claiming something, I need to be able to know whether that's true. So we had cameras on fans. If they get hit by a foul ball, we are making sure that they were not looking at their phone.
- [42:17]
A
You have an arc. Hold on. You have a vault. You maintained a vault of like most innocently, like America's Funniest Home Videos. I'm just like, of course, of like Pratt falls.
- [42:28]
B
And until the statute of limitations runs out on what a lawsuit could be for a slip and fall, we'll keep. It's not like a 24 hour loop, right? We're keeping the tape until we can no longer be sued on the tape.
- [42:40]
A
How long is it?
- [42:40]
B
So depend on what it is, but three to five years.
- [42:42]
A
Very good.
- [42:43]
B
And so the reason why we have to keep it is. I don't want he said, she said because it cost me more money in the settlements. I want actual proof. So we have cameras everywhere. Everywhere. We have cameras everywhere. Why not? Because we care if someone's having sex in the restroom. We don't care if you don't have
- [43:03]
A
cameras in the restroom.
- [43:05]
B
Not in the toilets. We don't care if someone's doing lines like that wasn't what I was ever after, nor anyone on my security team. It wasn't about someone breaking law. We didn't care about affairs.
- [43:16]
A
Did you care about fans who would criticize Jeffrey Luria, the owner of the team?
- [43:20]
B
100%. We would have eyes on anyone if they had any sort of sign that would say blame Jeffrey Lauria or sell the team. Jeffrey Lauria. We have eyes on that person. That person is getting their sign removed and they're likely going to get ejected. That's number one. You think that Jimmy Dolan is the only one who has eyes on sell the team people? It's a joke. Every owner has eyes on that.
- [43:45]
A
I mean, just this is me as a fan now, right? The idea of like criticism being baked in to the business.
- [43:52]
B
Like, come on, owners have the thinnest skin. You can't even imagine how thin.
- [43:58]
A
I love to chronicle the ongoing translucence and how in fact it is at times surprising even to someone cynical like me.
- [44:07]
B
Pablo, we had security. It's. It's funny. We had. This is before facial recognition. We did facial recognition the old fashioned way with actual photos. And we had people at every door,
- [44:18]
A
like a wanted poster.
- [44:19]
B
We, we.
- [44:20]
A
It was do not serve this man.
- [44:22]
B
It was actually that at every entrance to the ballpark, there were pictures of people that we did not allow in for any reason I wanted.
- [44:29]
A
And you had.
- [44:29]
B
Because they were critical.
- [44:30]
A
Full choice.
- [44:32]
B
We're in charge of It. We are in charge of it. We don't need to get FBI Most wanted. I could care less about the FBI Most Wanted. It's not about stopping a terrorist attack. I've got people who are helping me secure the building to stop it from attack. Different. What I'm using facial recognition for and what I would use it for and what everyone will use it for, is to make sure that we are not subjecting our owner or our players or our president to anything they don't want to be subjected to. And I'm completely in favor of that. It's our house.
- [45:04]
A
I know you are.
- [45:05]
B
You don't have the right to come into my house and violate my rules. By the way, if I tell you you can come to dinner, but you have to take your shoes off if you want to keep your shoes on, no problem. You just can't come to dinner.
- [45:18]
A
What if I have also paid via taxes into the construction and the maintenance of your house?
- [45:24]
B
That is one of the great arguments of all time. I own part of this. It's like walking into a McDonald's and saying, I'm a seasoned ticket holder. I want my Quarter Pounder made the way I want it made.
- [45:35]
A
Okay, so we are.
- [45:36]
B
We doesn't. It's not relevant.
- [45:38]
A
Okay, of course we disagree on this. And of course there is another episode which we will do about what is permissible because public money is involved or not. What is permissible when the premise of a sports arena or a team involves some notion of, like, civic relations and civic duty.
- [45:56]
B
Pablo, we have. We have agreements online and. Go look online, Pablo. We have a thousand pages of agreements.
- [46:02]
A
We also have terms of money.
- [46:03]
B
We have everything. Not one paragraph talks about, hey, we gotta make sure that you're not taking any looks at any of our citizens because of public money. They had the opportunity, the public did, if they wanted to negotiate some sort of. Of protection to their citizens. It never came up in one negotiation.
- [46:21]
A
And part of. I think what our reporting is indicating is that perhaps there should be a conversation on the front end of such legislation, of such political decision making. That is another episode which we will get to, I promise, on this show that is trying to investigate everything.
- [46:37]
B
Good luck.
- [46:37]
A
And I appreciate that in the most sincere and sarcastic ways. But I want to take us now to a statement from msg, because of course, part of what we do here journalistically is make sure that we get their point of view. And what they gave to us in response to Wired's reporting was the following statement. This story is built on false, misleading and unverified allegations, including claims drawn from lawsuits filed by rapacious litigators. We categorically reject such reckless reporting and are actively evaluating our legal options against Wired. End quote. I say that after you say all the things that you said, because I think it's hilarious to deny the things. It really is funny As a larger matter of what's really happening in sports. If you've ever tried to keep up with the world of wellness and performance, you know that it moves really fast. New products, new ingredients, and new claims all competing for your attention. And that's why the Drop by GNC exists. It's where new happens first, and where GNC cuts through the noise to find out what actually works. No guesswork, no endless scrolling, just a curated selection of the best from the latest launches and trends and innovations in wellness and performance, all hand picked by GNC's experts. And here's the advantage. You're getting a sneak peek at what's coming next, the newest formulas, the latest flavors, and the up and coming brands before they hit the mainstream. From trending ingredients to breakthrough formulas, the Drop by GNC keeps you informed and focused and on top of your goals. And with new drops launching regularly, there's always something fresh to discover. So if you're ready to stop chasing trends and start staying ahead of them, check out the Drop by GNC today. GNC.com TheDrop is the destination to discover something new to try today and get the facts you can trust on what's new and trending. And make sure to plan what's next by browsing the Coming soon calendar of drops. That's gnc.com thedrop Men's Wearhouse helps you love the way you look no matter if it's a formal occasion or a more casual thing. Job interview, tea time, high school reunion, wedding, courtside seats, or just a neighborhood party where you want people to say, man, that dude looks impressive. So if you're a man with literally anything on the books, Men's Wearhouse has everything you need, from formal to casual, dressed up to dress down. And the best part is they pride themselves on impeccable service from the moment you walk in the door. With in store experts well versed in finding you the right look for any occasion and on site tailors to make sure the fit is perfect for your body. Men's Wearhouse really has it all. Suits, tuxes, sport coats, jeans, shorts, chinos, T shirts, polos, loafers, sneakers, sandals. All of it. Get ready to look and feel good from head to toe by visiting Men's Wearhouse today and with over 600 locations nationwide, they are nearby. When you're ready to Love the way you look Men's Warehouse Love the way you look
- [49:29]
C
Think Verizon is expensive? Think again. Anyone can bring their AT&T or T mobile bill to a Verizon store today and we'll give you a better deal. So bring us your bill. Walk in running pogo stickin' teleport if you can ride on the back of a rollerblading yak or flying on the wings of a majestic falcon. Any way you can bring your AT&T or T mobile bill to a Verizon store today and we'll give you a better deal on the best network based on Route Method metric's best overall mobile network performance US 2nd Half 2025 all rights reserved. Must provide a very recent postpaid consumer mobile bill in the name of the person redeeming the deal. Additional terms, conditions and restrictions apply.
- [50:08]
A
Before we go, the question that I need to find out about today as I hold my friends to account, is whether you ever took advantage of the knowledge you had of your own ballpark security system, the surveillance state. You were the watchful eye yourself. Did you ever know how to hide something inside of your own House?
- [50:28]
B
Floor 3 of 1 of the Northern garages has a corner in it where it is not actually on camera and I knew that and so I would go to that corner in order to do to get away from anyone I needed to get away from to make a phone call that I didn't want anyone to hear or to do anything I didn't want anyone to see that I would do. I knew about a corner if you lean down, so I had a squat, but there's a blind spot on the third floor of a garage which is with a player's garage and if you lean down that is a place that the cameras don't have.
- [51:00]
A
I will not rest until I find footage of you squatting out of sight.
- [51:05]
B
It doesn't exist. That's the point.
- [51:08]
A
Not with that attitude. Pablo torre finds out is produced by walter averoma, maxwell carney, ryan cortez, juan galindo, patrick kim, neely loman, rob mcrae, matt sullivan, claire taylor and chris tominiello studio engineering by rd systems sound design by andrew burcic digital strategy by bailey carlin and andrew northern theme song as always by john bravo and we'll talk to. Acast Powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend
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B
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A
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B
They share real tips and so I started connecting with all these people on LinkedIn and I saw Target supplier diversity was having office hours. Real advice Procrastination is the easiest form of resistance and the actual strategies they use to turn their side hustle hustle into their main hustle. Getting back in touch with your tangible cash and sitting down and learning to give your money a job like it changes something. Check outside Hustle Pro every week on your favorite podcast app and YouTube
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A
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B
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C
Acast.com think Verizon is expensive? Think again. Anyone can bring their AT and T or T mobile bill to a Verizon store today and we'll give you a better deal. So bring us your bill, walk in, run in, pogo sticking, teleport if you can, ride on the back of a rollerblading yak or fly in on the wings of a majestic falcon. Any way you can bring your AT and T or T mobile bill to a Verizon store today and we'll give you a better deal on the Best network based on RouteMetric's best overall mobile network performance US 2nd half 2025 all rights reserved. Must provide very recent postpaid consumer mobile bill in the name of the person redeeming the deal. Additional terms, conditions and restrictions apply.
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B
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A
After all, you listen to this show.
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B
See terms@discover.com creditcard.