← Pablo Torre Finds Out
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is. David Samson is now about to call Marco Rubio right after this ad. You're listening to Giraffe Kings. What John is saying there. The feeling underneath the table. You. I make fun of David's weirdnesses all the time. Thank you for David Sampson.
- [00:37]
B
Good to see you.
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A
I have never chewed gum. Never have put gum into my mouth.
- [00:43]
C
Never.
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A
Never. Because when I was a kid in grade school, I ran my hands underneath the desk absentmindedly and felt something and then looked at what it was and resolved I will never come in contact with this if I can avoid it.
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B
Tic Tacs?
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A
Yeah, all the Tic Tacs.
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B
What about Double Bump? What about the charms? Lollipop that ends in gum, starts in a lollipop, ends at gum. You can throw it up for close.
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A
But underneath our desk, underneath our studio table, here it is. It is clean.
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C
It's pristine.
- [01:14]
B
I wouldn't put my fingers under that if I were you guys. I've seen a lot of people do shows with Pablo. I'll stick to the top of the telescope.
- [01:21]
C
I wonder if you entered any public school classroom and turned over the desk. What percentage of desk would have gum stuck to the underneath?
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A
I went to parochial Catholic school. It felt in my mind like it was 99%.
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B
I went to a private school and it was heavily gummed.
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C
So I went to a very public school in a small town in North Carolina. And I would guess it was 100% that you'd probably be okay on the over under being every desk.
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B
I was just happy to see John smile when I got in today. I fully. Yes, I'm was very concerned because of. For myriad reasons, the election. The election was probably number one. But health, happiness, general overall demeanor.
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A
The pink guy's gone.
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B
As you.
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A
Excuse me, Is gone.
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B
And so when I come in and you're almost buoyant, it really. It changes the whole show.
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C
Well, you know, and I understand that Matt Gase is going to be the Attorney General. I don't know why I would be unhappy about anything.
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B
I thought you'd leave us for the Cabinet. I thought maybe you were going to take over as something.
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C
I'm gonna take over and be the last Secretary of Education.
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B
There's a lot of understanding about that.
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C
Which part?
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B
About getting rid of the Department of Education, which I'm not in favor of necessarily. I do understand. Exactly.
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A
Necessarily is doing a lot of work in that sense.
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B
Well, I think that we need to Understand what it. There's such misunderstanding about the powers of the president. Now, of course, he's got the House and the Senate, but you can't just wave a wand as president and have things happen. You do need congressional support, which in theory, he will have for rational things. The concern I have is if there's support for irrational things.
- [03:18]
C
Well, of course, we're not on topic of sports, but he's already suggested that the Senate should just take a. A little holiday, just an old recess so that he can just name his cabinet and not have the constitutional provision that the Senate should be a. A check and balance on the system of presidential appointees. He'd like to suspend that part of the Constitution immediately. A further.
- [03:53]
B
It's not. Listen, as a Floridian, former Floridian, where I started losing my mind only. And I'm not. I really have never told who I voted for, actually. But this.
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A
This election.
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B
This election, I, I. David.
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C
An American's right, but to privacy 100%.
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B
But I just. No, I. Marco Rubio. You voted for Marco Rubio as a Secretary of state is so troubling to me because I just know him from when he first started.
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A
Okay, wait, so. Wait. So.
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B
So I have his number in my cell phone.
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A
We're going to. We're going to text the second.
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B
Can we. Can we text him Secretary of State.
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A
Marco Rubio a photo.
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B
He'll respond with the middle finger emoji.
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A
I want to get into this. I wanted to get into what the impact of this election has meant for the rich guys at the heart of rich guys only fans as well as the rich guys on top of sports. Like, I'm actually curious how that world, how your world has reacted. But Marco Rubio is somebody that. You know why.
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B
He was in the Florida House of Representatives when we were trying to get money from the state. And so I met him as a South Florida politician and I was president of a sports team. He wanted pictures with the World Series trophy and autographs from players. And he promised us that we. We were going to get this state money. And then he lied. Basically. He's just a liar. And he is funded by a guy named Norman Brman. That's his whole career is because of Norman Brman. He wouldn't have won school board election without Norman Bran. And you can look at it. You can. It's all public.
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A
It's Googling Norman Raymond.
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B
Oh, you've never. Oh, is that a name that no one knows?
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C
I. Wow. Sounds familiar. But I know who Norman Raymond is.
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A
American billionaire, car Dealer, art collector and former owner of the Philadelphia Eagles.
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B
Yes, he was. And he so spot for me. Norman Bremen is famous because he sold the Eagles when he couldn't get his own public financing to build the stadium for the Eagles. And once that happened, he sold it to a guy named Jeffrey Lurie. Cut to. He then became an anti public financing hawk. He became this bitter, crazy man who sued us. And I ended up in court next to Norman Bremen on the other side and kicked his absolute ass at every turn. But he did delay Marlins park by a year through his frivolous, ridiculous lawsuit, which obviously was not a winner of any kind, but he is. And, and he thought it would be great to fund Marco Rubio thinking that he would make for a great politician.
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A
Here's an article, John, from the Palm Beach Post. In case you were wondering about the provenance of David Sampson's feud with Norman Bremen, quote Samson also reportedly lashed out at auto magnate and civic activist Norman Braman.
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C
Lashed out. I never thought I would heard that sequence of noun, verb, subject. David lashed out at Norman Bremen. So wait, go back and read the description. Norm Brayan. Norman Braiman is a billionaire who.
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A
Well, he's an auto magnate, a civic activist, and according to various other sources, an art collector.
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B
He has a very beautiful art collection.
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C
Wait, you sum up the state of billionaires in that sentence, which is. First of all, lots of people are billionaires now, including. Is he referred to as an auto magnate?
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A
That's right.
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C
I believe that means he sells cars. Right?
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B
That's exactly.
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C
Auto magnet. So he's a car salesman and he's made enough money, he's become one of the three to five thousand billionaires in the world by selling cars. Reputable, Reputable. Occupation, sure, but usually didn't lead to billionaire status. Does now. And what does he do with that money? He wants to buy. We've said it on this, on this show a thousand times. The reason that sports teams are going up is if you are a rich man and if you're a rich white man, this is tripled. You want a team because there is no better status symbol. And I always say he had a team. And what I always say, it's just like art. It's just like buying a vermeer. There are 32 NFL teams. There are 34 Vermeers. So every billionaire wants to buy art. I want to buy a team. They want to sell cars.
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B
Norman's done it all. Norman set to win it.
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C
Done it all in court. And obviously, except when your respect.
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B
You have to know that I was much younger than I am now and he was in his prime and he did not enjoy losing to me.
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A
Can I give you the kicker as, as we continue into this larger discussion to this article, which is quote and this is Norman Brian, aforementioned magnate, quote. I wouldn't dignify David Sampson by even guessing what he has to say. Gran said, interrupting the question. That's how little I think of him.
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C
Wow.
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A
Period. End quote.
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C
But Norman Braymond is not here on this show where probably he'd like to add to his art collection and his team collection with a podcast, because that's what every billionaire needs is a podcast to go with their art collection.
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B
Did you think I was making up the Norman Bremen stuff?
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A
I know that you are a. What's the word? Congenital truth teller.
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B
Actually, I have no need to make up a story.
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A
I believed you. I just always want the color on what the scene of your description was mayhem. But when John says, when he jokes billionaires need podcasts, they actually, it turns out love and do want podcasts. And I bring up the election because I do want to know the Norman Bremen's. Broadly speaking, this population of rich people who own sports teams and andor want to andor did. What's the reaction? What's the reaction, David, to this, to this election?
- [10:06]
B
There, there are many of the. There. There was a great story that we were told inside meetings, which is we know that baseball, their mandate was to support both sides. So if you look publicly at the legislative affairs department of Major League Baseball, it's about 50, 50 red blue. But we're very aware because we would keep track of which owners were donating red and which owners were donating blue. Some owners donated both individually, but some were very dead red and some were more blue. What we also tracked is what the meeting was like after an election where everybody celebrated the red victory. And so it very much is a benefit for sports teams and sports owners. It's a benefit for big business. Everything you saw before this election, there's no question that Trump winning benefits the leagues as entities and the owners who own those teams, whether it's through capital gains taxes, whether it's through the the myriad tax loopholes that we've seen. There's just all sorts of the DOJ not being up in anyone's kitchen about antitrust. There's all sorts of interesting things that come of a red victory.
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C
Do we know what Matt Gaetz philosophical point of view is relative to anti the antitrust exemption of the sports leagues?
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B
I believe as long as they're Young.
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C
Has he written about that in a legal. Is he written about that in a law review somewhere?
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B
You can Google it. I guess. So. I, I mean, you're asking a serious question. The serious is that there are many owners who are afraid to be read because they, they view it as a problem with their fan base. The NFL manifested it by not finding Nick Bosa until after the election for wearing his MAGA hat. He wore it, got fined, but only it was announced after the election for fear of any sort of election tampering, given how strong the NFL is. But privately, when there's no cameras on.
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A
That'S what I want to know.
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B
They are very much happy that Harris did not win and that Trump did.
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A
But the biggest reasons, John, is this money? Is it as simple as taxes? Is that the number. A number one big headline here is that they're gonna make more money individually, and therefore they're.
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B
So they'll disguise it. They'll disguise it. They can hide behind Israel and they can hide behind other sort of things that, you know, smaller federal government, more power to the states. You can argue behind many different walls. But at the end, when they're quiet at a dinner where no one's writing anything down, it's certainly about the impact on their businesses and on their net income.
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C
I'm shocked to find out that rich people might be happy about making more money.
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B
You're going to benefit also, just FYI.
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C
No, I will not benefit.
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B
Now. Now it's interesting because I've spoken to a lot of people who did vote for Harris, and I am curious, and I've asked every one of them, and I'm batting a thousand. Are you going to not take advantage of any tax benefits that will exist? So, for example, If Harris wanted 40% tax on capital gains, when it comes to your capital G, the end of the year, will you pay the 20% as well?
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A
Explain capital gains for our audience.
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B
Capital gains is when you buy something for a dollar and sell it for $2. There's a gain of a dollar and the government will charge you a tax on that gain, whether you buy a house, a share of stock, anything that you buy at X and you sell at Y, the difference in X to Y you pay taxes on. And if the Democrats have their way, that number would be bigger, a bigger percentage to the government. So if you've made a dollar, they may charge you 40 cents, whereas the Republicans want to charge you 20 cents or sometimes 10 cents. So what I've asked people is, will you donate that amount either to the Government or to charity or are you going to take the net difference between the 20 cents and the 40 cents? 100 out of 100. 100%. We're taking the advantage, of course.
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C
Well, yeah, of course. I mean, it's called following the law.
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B
No, I don't, I don't know about that. It's not following the law.
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C
You, you are talking.
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B
You can overpay the government in taxes if you want. They're not going to put you in jail for overpaying your taxes.
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A
But you are implying that people, as a, as a conscientious objector, would choose to, to send more of their money to this particular Trump administration. That is the, that is the.
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B
I also said charity, though.
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A
Oh, sure.
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B
I said pick a charity and give it. Give the 20 cents to that. Yeah. Zero.
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C
It's, it's, it's a clever, It's a clever question. And they, of course, you know what their answer will be, which is, no, I'm not going to voluntarily give money. I do not legally have to to the government. That doesn't.
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B
And I'm not judging. I'm just saying that's. You're asking what the impact is of a Trump victory. That's a real impact from. For people who are large asset holders.
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A
And it's also clever because it is a different question that you are integrating into the larger premise of is this good or bad for the American economy? Is this a good or bad regime to exist under? If you are concerned about economics. Right. Because, yes, charitable giving, everybody should be more charitable. That can exist regardless of whether Pol Pot is the President of the United States. The question here, though, is if you are running. I love that you did not vote for Pol Pot.
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C
Just for the record, I love that Pablo thinks that to our audience, we must explain what capital gains is, but that everybody will know who Pol Pot was.
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B
That's just a blind spot of his Harvard education. Don't worry.
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A
Pol Pot was a very popular musician in the 1980s.
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B
Very guitar.
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C
I thought Pol Pot was like when you're going out for an evening long marathon of partying. It was the first joint you smoked. It was the pole box. Isn't that what it is?
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B
I've never thought of that.
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C
I got the Pole Dube right here.
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A
Pole Dube.
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B
People don't say dube as much as they used to. Hey, you have a doobie. That was my, that was my nomenclature in college.
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A
You. You were a, you were a doobie.
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B
I wanted.
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A
You're a doobie brother.
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B
A doobie brother. Taking it to the streets.
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A
God. The point being here, right, if you're rooting for something, if you're rooting for an outcome as, as sports is concerned. And again, we've talked about all of the big picture macroeconomic concerns for sports, right? There's tech, there is beyond that the degradation of the current media ecosystem and of course cable television. There are the desires to get money from overseas. In what ways is there a thumb on the scale of the biggest issues that we've been talking about beyond just taxes?
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B
Everything's easier now. So I'll give you. Well, this is a tax, but something else that different than capital gain estate tax. A lot of owners sell their teams for estate tax purposes and there were thoughts and rumors that a blue victory would have really changed both the lifetime exclusions. The amount of money that you can give to your children or other people without paying an estate tax. It's called and the number is now 13.6 million per person. So if you die with under $13.6 million today, there's no estate tax. If you die with over that, there's an estate tax on the difference of 13:6 to what your estate is worth.
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A
Did John, John, did you know that specific number? 13.6 to the decimal.
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C
I do know that number.
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B
You're acting like it's something that no one knows. It's very interesting for me to explain.
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C
What pole pot was by.
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B
He hasn't had time to Google it yet.
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C
Was the leader of Cambodia correct?
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A
Spoiler alert. Yes.
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C
And maybe one of the greatest despots in the 20th century, a Mount Rushmore.
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B
Autocrat of bad people.
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C
No, no. Killed, killed and is right up there because I think that killing your own people is, is slightly worse than killing.
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B
A lot of bad people in Africa.
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C
Well, he killed a lot, but he mostly killed Cambodia.
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B
Yes. No, I'm saying that he's. While he may be on the Mount Rushmore, there's people who we haven't heard of who would who have done some very bad things. Anyway, I digress but estate tax is a major reason why.
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A
Let's rank all of the. Who's the Kareem Abdul Jabbar, the underrated but all time scorer who just really.
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C
Well, by the way, Pol Pot is up there.
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B
He's up there.
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C
He's up there.
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B
I'm not sure the younger people know who that is.
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A
No. And I, I, I, he's my go to because I want people to go and go him on their own when they think that I'm making up a name because it sounds Silly.
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C
Well, it's a cool sounding name too. Pol Pot.
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B
I mean, yeah, I never thought of it as a cool name. If you've seen.
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C
I could see Mr. Mrs. Pot at home going, have you heard there is.
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A
A bit of a children's book aspect to like. Is my Bean Pot?
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C
How about Bean Pot? No, no, how about Pol Pot?
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B
I Coco is like us to move on immediately.
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A
So you know how this show works. We go into a digression.
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C
Wait, is that on the tape? Does actually everybody get to hear that? No, because that's heard in our ear. Matt Coca say to us, move on, move on. So we now know that the younger audience does not our focus more about Pol Pot.
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A
Our focus group has decided that we should move on. I want to get to another figure who has broad appeal one of these. God, if you're drinking at home, and I say this all the time, take a shot when I say monoculture. But Caitlin Clark feels monocultural at a time when nobody short of Donald Trump necessarily feels that way. And I want to disclose that John Skipper in his business interests beyond being the head of Meadowlark Media is involved with something called Unrivaled. And so John, can you explain unrivaled so that we can disclose your priors and your stake and then get into the discussion.
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C
So I am an investor and an advisor to Unrivaled, which is a 3 on 3 women's basketball league that will play its first game January 17th. Mark your calendars. I do have a conflict of interest here. So because I am an investor so that. Thanks for disclosing that. And it's a brand new league. It's a brand new league and it.
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B
Has a brand new media deal. It's been in the news nonstop. So you're downplaying it. But it's really hard to start a new league.
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C
It's really hard to start a new league.
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B
It's off to an amazing start.
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A
Yeah, TNT Sports is the partner, which is huge.
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B
It's going to be in Miami.
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C
We'll play in Miami at a purpose built stadium that seats slightly under a thousand people.
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B
So are you going to call it a stadium? I. I would think I wanted to know.
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C
Arena probably. Arena.
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B
What about studio?
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C
That's interesting. I have not actually thought about whether we're calling it anything other than a Miami purpose built stadium. But it is a good idea to probably name it something that says what it is, which is an intimate place to see basketball and it is intended one to ensure that the cameras are right on top of everything and Everybody watching is on top of everything. It'll give you a more, you know, up close look at the game.
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B
I don't want to derail this, but that's a huge point. And right now when stadiums are being built, they're being built smaller because the focus really is on the TV audience and the broadcast revenue is a much bigger component of your business. Unrivaled is taking that to a brand new level. They could have made a deal and played where the Heat play or played where the Panthers play. Instead they're going to an 850 person studio. I'm going to call it that. I'm going to see if it sticks that they're building and it's a TV studio. That's why I'm calling it that. Because the deal they have with tnt that's going to reach. That's the audience, the people in Miami going to the games. You're going to get a really cool experience. It's like when you go see a late night show live.
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A
Well, I was going to say it's unsurprising that John Skipper would invent a. Would help oversee the construction of a venue that is more jazz club than NFL stadium. That does track with John's interests.
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C
Well, it does track with my interest. It doesn't track with the decision making process. Was not my idea though. It. I think it's a good idea. And David's right. I mean it is intended to put the highlight on the game as it is seen by its principal audience, which is the television audience.
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B
There'll be 850 lucky people every game.
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C
It'll be fun. It'll become a hard ticket to get and we will jam in a few more people who can stand around. But it is all done to make the presentation for the television audience that everybody looks like they have a front row seat.
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A
Right.
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C
So you won't. There's no place to put a camera that is in the camera positions that usually go in the upper deck. Right. All of the camera positions are low and so you'll see it. But I don't. I know that's not what we want.
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A
Well, I'm trying to set up just. Also you're talking about the micro. The macro here is that the WNBA off season has been the point in the year when the best players would go to Russia or they would try to. Right. As Brittney Griner experience there. They would go to Turkey, they would go overseas. And this is meant to fill that and keep them domestically.
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C
Yeah. The WNBA season is sort of March to October. So the women, many of the best female players in the world have gone to play in China and Russia and Turkey and Israel. Interesting. And those. And that was to make more money, right? They actually made more money.
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A
Yes.
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C
In Russia and China. That's not a good option right now.
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A
Well, and keep in mind just what the through line through the countries we've just listed. Right. If you're geopolitically aware in any vague sense, you get the idea that this isn't exactly the easiest or most comfortable place for some of these women to want to be if not for the money that was being offered by the.
- [24:27]
B
Heads of state because they needed it. And as I'm evaluating making more, way more over. Well, because the WNBA doesn't pay enough to not work. The theory is even when you're making the minimum as a major league baseball player and NBA player at the minimum, you're still making enough annually that you don't need to work during the off season. If you're a minor leaguer, you do for the wnba. These players needed to work during the off season because the WNBA salaries were not enough. So one of the business risks, and it's not that I was ever asked to be an investor because none of us were told, we read it in the paper here at Metalark, but we're not upset about that. I mean, but we are. But one of the business risks that would be in any prospectus would be if the WNBA is as successful as they think they are, if they become as successful as they think they already are and the players start making more and more money. One of the risks would be that they would not need to play during the off season.
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C
Yeah, I would define need to play. The, the fact of the matter is these women who are the best players in the world had the opportunity to make more money. Right. And the wages in the WNBA were not high enough that you could simply say that's okay, I'm making $43 million already, I don't need to go make another 12 by playing somewhere else. They, you know, were making more modest salaries. And, and because the teams in China and Russia and Turkey are mostly supported by oligarchs. Yes, they are non financial teams for the most part, meaning they're losing money. And back to where we started with the auto magnate wanting to own a team. Turns out the oligarchs on own teams as well.
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A
Yeah. Would love a team of high performing women from America to play for them.
- [26:19]
C
So they had an opportunity to go somewhere else and make seven figures. That's you know, I didn't turn down a lot of seven figure jobs when I was 23, 24, 25 and they had that opportunity. The unrivaled is intended to it's in January, February, March before the WNBA season so it doesn't interfere with the season. It is intended to provide the opportunity for the best players in the world to stay in the United States the whole year. That works well with their sponsorships, with their families and and maybe with their personal lifestyle. They probably want to be near their hometowns or in the United States near their families for the whole year. They don't have an opportunity now. Their opportunity is here. That's what it's intended for. And we have been successfully in getting we have signed 30 of the WNBA players and our intention was to sign the 30 best players. We have probably 30 of the 35 to 40 best players in the league are signed. A couple of notable exceptions which is and the most notable exception is Caitlyn Clark.
- [27:34]
A
And this is why your disclosure of a conflict is actually the reason I want to talk about this. It's because you guys have so many of the names you would know. Angel Reese, by the way, is also in this league. Brianna Stewart, Nafisa Collier, these are the the two main Yukon products who are the faces of this seemingly on the ground floor of this in a business sense and otherwise as recruiters perhaps too. In this case though the biggest fish, David, and it's not close is of course Caitlyn Clark. And that is not a statement as we always have to caveat about. Is she the number one best player in the league? That's an argument that many have had and will continue to have in the ways that we want to Mount Rushmore everything. But in terms of the draw, the biggest free agent, the biggest economic stimulus package that can be provided to a startup like this, it's obviously her and she is not signed.
- [28:21]
B
She's bigger than even Shohei Otani. In terms of direct my view is that in terms of direct relation to bottom line performance of a league, you get Caitlin Clark, you are able to go to banks and present financials that are way more base case than upside case and your base case goes higher, you have more access to capital, your sponsorship revenue goes up every your media rights deal. I assume there's some sort of minimum guarantee and maybe an upside, maybe whatever deal that was negotiated. Having Caitlyn Clark is an absolute economic boon, which is why there's a rumor and we have the person right here who can confirm it or not confirm it. That she was offered what. What has been called a messy like deal.
- [29:04]
A
And that is Leo Messi.
- [29:06]
B
Right. Who is there?
- [29:07]
C
As opposed to a me ssy. A messy like deal.
- [29:11]
B
I've never used Messi like, as in you're like messy like from the Valley. I'm just trying an MLS show.
- [29:18]
C
I'm just trying to be clear to our.
- [29:20]
B
I apologize if people heard messy like and didn't know I was referring to.
- [29:23]
A
They know Pol Pot don't know the message.
- [29:25]
C
Move on. Move on.
- [29:26]
B
Is he telling you that? So I'm curious, as I think about it, what would I offer?
- [29:32]
A
Yes.
- [29:33]
B
To get a free agent like this.
- [29:35]
A
How do you recruit a transcendent superstar?
- [29:37]
B
I'm making it so she can't say no because that's how important she could be to our league. Now, they've done an amazing job of standing on their own two feet without her. But the incremental benefit. There's no free agent like her in the world, male or female. I would argue currently.
- [29:54]
C
Well, you. You could actually. You said messy like. The one example you might come up with is messy and the mls. Though I doubt that it is quite as dramatic. It certainly was dramatic in terms of merchandise.
- [30:08]
B
But.
- [30:08]
C
But so that. But I agree with you. There are very few instances of where one player in a league brings as much value as she does. Again, we're not talking about who the best player is. We're not talking about what the most fun thing to watch would be. Necessarily, though she's lots of fun to watch. But in terms of value, if you were starting a new league, which we are, and in the first game, the most impactful thing that could happen would be that Caitlin Clark would be there and she would be playing. I am certainly willing to disclose that. Of course, the league has been in discussions with her. I can't disclose anything about any specifics, including whether it's messy life.
- [30:50]
B
Just us.
- [30:51]
C
It's just us and some number of people listening. And legally, it's just us and Marco. Obligation to not disclose. So. But there's no reason not to disclose that. Yes, we would like to have Caitlin Clark in the first game. Yes, we have discussed that with her. The answer has neither been yes nor no yet, though we will know yes or no pretty soon. And I won't characterize what the chances are of one or the other, because I don't know. Because it's only one person knows and that's her. Obviously, we would love for her to play in this league. We have made her a very Attractive offer. I won't characterize whether it's messy or messy like.
- [31:35]
A
But can I ask, can I ask a general question which is about the deals being offered to these athletes? Of course. In a normal league, right, you're not getting the same deal if you're Brianna Stewart, multiple mvp, reigning champion versus the more anonymous player. Right. So there are. So in terms of the. This, the scale of this. What's been reported, John, is that the average is projected around $250,000 higher than the WNBA's highest base salary. Plus there's an equity stake. Is that something that you can comment on or can you just let that. Let that every.
- [32:10]
C
Every player has a. Has equity in the league. All 30 of the women signed have equity in the league. Now Nafisa Collier and Brianna Stewart are co founders. So nobody will get a better deal than the co founders.
- [32:28]
B
Worse to live by. I digress.
- [32:31]
A
As I stare into the camera break the fourth wall.
- [32:36]
B
But I would mention that that is what you do in a startup when you're. When you need, you're dependent. They are your product and unrivaled. You could go the ice tea or Ice Cube.
- [32:48]
A
Oh boy.
- [32:48]
B
Which is the three on three league.
- [32:51]
C
Just call it Mr. Ice Cube.
- [32:52]
B
Ice Cube, the big three. You could go that way. There's also leagues where the league owns all the teams. That's common when it starts where unrivaled would own their tr. That and live actually. But here it's interesting. You're giving points away to the employees. Cuz players are employees of a league.
- [33:12]
A
Shares in the company.
- [33:13]
B
Points being shares in the company.
- [33:15]
C
I would point out that Metalar has given shares to all employees as well.
- [33:21]
B
Very nice of you and. But I was going a different way which is that there is a limited amount that you have only 100 points to give. And so once you give to somebody, is there a mechanism where if they get hurt, if they stop playing, if they stink, what is the mechanism to get them out at a pre arranged number in order to replace that equity with the next. Because I hate to say this, I'm very sorry.
- [33:47]
A
You're already thinking about firing people.
- [33:48]
B
There'll be another Caitlin Clark.
- [33:50]
A
Remarkable. Well, you guys haven't played a game yet. You're already firing because when you give.
- [33:53]
B
Equity away, you only get to do it once. You don't get to. You don't get a second chance at the 100 points that you have to give away. So it's a very risky strategy because he's giving equity to the best players. He called it the 40:35-40 of the top 30 players. That list will be different in five years. The top 40 players will be different.
- [34:15]
C
But you would be able to guess what the mechanisms for that are. Right. You get equity and invest over time. If for some reason you get hurt and can't play, you won't get more equity.
- [34:30]
A
But notably you've already signed Paige Beckers the the incoming next generation generation.
- [34:36]
C
We think it's a risk worth taking that she will turn out to be a great NBA WNBA player. Great unrivaled player. We did a nil deal this year and she has already contracted to play in the league next year. And you're right, somebody will not be will not perform well and will not be in the but they are multi year deals. So we are taking a bet that there will be some consistency. And again I got to be fairly careful about what I disclose about the contracts because I'm not supposed to disclose the material terms of the contracts. I certainly won't talk about anybody's specific salary or equity.
- [35:14]
B
But we can guess though.
- [35:16]
C
We can guess all you want.
- [35:17]
A
I want I want to do a.
- [35:18]
C
Quick it will not add up to more than 100 I'll give you that clue.
- [35:36]
A
What I want to get to because we're not going to extract from John as much as we strap him to the torture device that this chair is we're not going to get the Is it seven figures plus a percentage of the broadcast deal which is the Leo Messi like deal.
- [35:49]
B
It's not or an increment over what the bases of the broadcast deal if there's an upside to it. Could she be made a piece of.
- [35:55]
A
That could she be made to have the largest the largest non co founder stake by a lot. We're not going to get that from.
- [36:01]
B
Or larger than a co founder stake.
- [36:03]
A
Yep.
- [36:03]
B
It wouldn't be out of the question.
- [36:04]
A
Hypotheticals as John is swirl twirling in his chair not commenting.
- [36:07]
B
Oh we could keep going. I'll go all day. We really could thank her.
- [36:11]
A
But on this in terms of like how you would court the equivalent of a Caitlin Clark let's make this generic now but specific to your experience. You got to get a big fish a whale. Right. Like what's the deal you would construct given the abstract scenario There are so.
- [36:25]
B
Few players who I can have a direct correlation and the Dodgers are trying it with Ohtani and all the rumors that they made 120 million this year in sponsorship incremental sponsorship deals and incremental gate revenue in 18 years, I never had one player. Never had it proven to me, whether it was Bonds or Sosa or McGuire or anybody, that there was an increment that was due to that player where you could justify a certain expenditure. My view is if I know that I do something that will make me $10 that I have no other way to make in the world, I need this person or this thing to happen. I give them $7, I give him $8 because I'm still going to get $2 that I never would have been able to have. There's never been a player that exists like that.
- [37:12]
A
You're saying there in your experience in baseball, there was never a player that.
- [37:15]
B
Moved that needle meaningfully enough that would cover their salary? Never once. And there's never been a player. And anyone who tells you otherwise, they're simply lying to you. But I'm about to give you the exception. Caitlin Clark with unrivaled would be the example where she will bring with her a pot of money that otherwise would not be available to unrivaled. And that would help inform me what I'd be willing to give her, which I assume is what they are willing to give her, which is going to be far greater than anyone else in the league. It will be more money overall comp than the co founders. There will be an opportunity for more equity because it's measurable. Because I bet that they've negotiated in a way with their partners that should they get this tornado of benefit which is named Caitlin Clark, then what may be worth $1 today is worth $2 tomorrow and they want to monetize that.
- [38:10]
C
So I want to do the tornado of benefit.
- [38:14]
B
It doesn't happen often and it's a tornado because it doesn't last that long. But when, when it hits you, you get swept away in it. But then it's gone.
- [38:22]
A
So beyond the natural disaster metaphor here. I don't know. I don't know if I buy the argument you're making. As a categorical observation, LeBron James wouldn't move the needle. Right. Patrick Mahomes wouldn't move the needle.
- [38:35]
B
There's no $50 million of revenue going to the Lakers for LeBron James. Extra. An extra incremental $50 million.
- [38:42]
A
I think there is a case you can make based not on simply what the broadcast revenue would be or even the gate revenue would be, but the other factors of being a team that made X number of championships over X number of years.
- [38:58]
B
Listen, on an annual basis, no player pays for himself. Would I argue that the warriors are worth more today because they won the titles with Steph Curry.
- [39:07]
A
Yes.
- [39:07]
B
Than they would have been had they not. You're right.
- [39:09]
A
Yes.
- [39:10]
B
How do I allocate that to specific players? I've never seen the math on that.
- [39:14]
A
Well, that is a clever way of saying I do a lot of math, but that math, that's a little too hairy for me.
- [39:20]
B
But can you do it?
- [39:21]
A
Well, I think you can make an argument, but I digress. Now, John, I'd like you to think.
- [39:24]
C
I do think David essential point is correct. She is sui generis. Meaning I'm not sure I can think of another athlete who just clearly drives attendance, drives ratings, drives merchandise. And it is incremental. Right. I mean, I don't know what the NBA merchandise does year to year. LeBron I'm assuming is a significant portion of it, but probably the aggregate NBA merchandise doesn't go down much.
- [39:56]
B
They buy their players.
- [39:57]
C
Yeah. When he retires, the jersey sales will not go down very much.
- [40:02]
A
I agree with Caitlyn being number one by far on the list right now. Well, here that that is true.
- [40:08]
C
Ben and David's only point is that it is such a phenomenon that in order to get her to the league, I'm assuming you did the math of what the incremental revenue would be and made an offer that reflected that. And without disclosing what any of that is, the answer is that philosophically, of course we did the math.
- [40:29]
B
John is not a stupid businessman. This is, this is a business transaction with her.
- [40:34]
A
Do you remember David, just as a matter of like the soft factors in a courtship, in a recruiting process. You said that you.
- [40:40]
C
I would think David was better at the hard factors.
- [40:43]
A
Well, I want to know what's, what's David Samson like trying to court star creator?
- [40:48]
B
Yeah, no, I, I let other people be the charming. We, we just would go through our biggest pitch being in Florida was we would talk to the players and explain to them what their net take home would be by not having state tax in Florida. So if they were thinking about other NL east teams, we would compare it to New York and Pennsylvania and at a time Montreal and whoever was in your division. And we would talk about how if you don't get. And I would simply say if you want to play with the Mets, that's fine. Here's what they have to offer you in order for it to be the same for you and your family as playing for the Marlins.
- [41:21]
A
All roads lead back to Texas in that sense.
- [41:23]
B
Well, that is. It's an argument. It's real.
- [41:24]
A
But I want to ask you about. Just. I'm going to pick a star player from the past. That random. What was it like to recruit Jose Reyes?
- [41:34]
B
It really was about years and money. He had a number in mind. He wanted to get as close to 100 million as possible. And we knew before free agency started what the number was, and we pretended to not want to do it. And then we gave in at about 1202am Two minutes after free agency started, so we wouldn't get accused of doing a deal before, which we'd already done. Great. And we met with him literally at midnight at a bar in New York, and he agreed. He was upset with the Mets for not being more aggressive.
- [42:04]
C
What'd you order?
- [42:06]
B
It was drinks at that time of night, but Jose was on.
- [42:10]
C
I was looking for the specific beverage. Oh.
- [42:12]
B
That I.
- [42:12]
C
Negotiation. It's like the tornado of benefit. So it was the cocktail of negotiation.
- [42:17]
B
I was too anxious to drink.
- [42:19]
A
It was a dark and stormy.
- [42:20]
B
It was. But we had gotten a private area in a bar and Because Jose Reyes at the time was a very famous New Yorker.
- [42:27]
A
Yeah. Former middle.
- [42:29]
B
May not have heard of him. He was a Ford. Shortstop.
- [42:30]
A
Yeah, shortstop. For the Mets.
- [42:31]
B
For the Mets.
- [42:32]
C
Why wouldn't you just go somewhere private? Why would you be talking about $100 million in a public facility?
- [42:39]
B
Because we thought that it would be cooler to have sort of. What we dreamt about is that he would say yes on the spot and that we'd like unveil him in this bar of new. Of hardcore New York fans and be like, fu, He's a marlin. That's where my head was.
- [42:55]
C
Wow. It was the bar.
- [42:58]
B
It was like with sports people around. And it would have been really something.
- [43:02]
C
Oh, God.
- [43:04]
B
And by the way, fans to this day were not happy. But it's okay.
- [43:08]
C
How many lasted a year? Players ever said yes to you for less money than someone else offered them?
- [43:15]
B
I'm pretty sure never in my career. And that's hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of players.
- [43:20]
C
We in every. In the number of. I did rights deals, and people would always talk about what rights were worth and what we would pay. And I always, of course, said, you've heard it here before, $1 more than what anyone else will pay. And I can only remember one rights deal. Two rights deals in the history of all the deals I did where somebody took less money. And that was the Little League World Series, one of the most lovely events on espn. Now, they didn't take much less money, but they took slightly less money to stay on ESPN because of magnitude? Yeah.
- [43:58]
B
Like 10 grand or like 2 million.
- [44:01]
C
Probably like a million.
- [44:03]
B
That's significant. But that's not. Nothing for that deal.
- [44:06]
C
Nothing. But they were getting paid tens of millions of dollars annually.
- [44:10]
B
They're only. That's really their main income.
- [44:12]
A
Yeah, but they wanted to be on espn.
- [44:14]
C
They wanted to be on espn. And they were appreciative that ESPN had built the property from something to something dramatically bigger. I know people who were on my staff used to say, let's remind them that when we first put them on espn, they weren't very popular, and now they're a big deal and we should get it for less money. That never worked.
- [44:35]
B
You created a monster.
- [44:37]
C
That never worked. And in fact, to be fair, these guys were great, by the way, lovely guys. And they didn't. We had a handshake deal and I said, did we? I forget how, but at some point I asked them, did. I'm assuming we had the highest bid, and they said no. In fact, you had a marginally lower bid than someone else, but we wanted to be with you. Why? They didn't just say, if you'll pay $1 million more, we have a deal. I think that's the kind they wanted us to know. They were those kind of guys.
- [45:08]
B
I think when you talk turkey with Caitlin Clark, I think that you don't. You don't slow talk it. So the way we were with free agents, the way you got to be with someone like Caitlin Clark, is you're not really selling. You can go through the PowerPoint of the vision. Here's what unrivaled is. Here's all the people involved. Here's what we're trying to do. You really are trying to compel her to do a business deal along with her representatives. Because my guess is she doesn't come alone to the negotiation. My guess is she has representatives. She has a business manager, of course. She likely has a social secretary who has her plan for January through March. She likely has an agent who's negotiating certain provisions of what she would like in terms of accommodations and travel. And the job is to explain to the player that this will be additive to you because she already knows of someone like Caitlyn Clark, and many players were this way. We know that you want us. We know that you. That I can help you win. So what? Why, why, why do I. Why should I come to you? And that's sort of like what Juan Soto is going to be doing during the meetings he's having with clubs. Of course he knows his worth. And so the other teams. But he can sit across the table and say, well, I know what I bring to you. What are you going to do for me? In addition to matching the money? That's why I think there's other things that Caitlin Clark will need in order to do a deal with unrivaled.
- [46:25]
A
John, you mentioned that there was another deal you.
- [46:28]
B
You.
- [46:28]
A
You struck where the.
- [46:29]
C
Oh, this is. This was great. This was the College Football Playoff in which we were instructed that we would need to put all but one of the games on ABC because they did not want to be on cable television. They wanted to be on broadcast television. And so I convinced my boss, who was George Bodenheimer at the time, that we would put in two bids. And one of those bids would be $25 million higher than the other bid. And that would be that if we put all the games on ESPN, we would pay $25 million a year more than if we didn't put all the games on espn. I love that. And in fact, the College Football Playoff committee decided they would take the bigger money, even though they had told us they wouldn't be on cable television. Fact, I was mofoed by the principal negotiator for. For which was a guy named Barry Frank, who's a legendary. He's passed. But he was a legendary CAA guy.
- [47:39]
B
Agent. Agent.
- [47:40]
C
And he invented many, many invented senior skins. And he invented senior skins, the golfing, weightlifting, strongest man. He's really an interesting guy and did a lot of interesting things in sports. He could not imagine one of those being taking the College Football Playoff and putting it on cable.
- [48:13]
A
So at the end of today's show, a show about finding stuff out about sports business in particular. What did you guys find out today?
- [48:20]
B
I actually found out that John has masterminded an incredibly interesting business and unrivaled. That really has a chance to work. And that's really cool.
- [48:29]
C
Yeah, certainly I did not mastermind it. There's a guy named Alex Bazelle and Nafisa giving you credit. Who with Nafisa and Brianna, were the masterminds of this. I've been advising the masterminds a little bit, and I'm very excited about it. I'm very proud to be associated with it, and I think it's gonna be a lot of fun.
- [48:50]
A
What I found out today is that David Sampson is now about to call.
- [48:53]
B
Marco Rubio to congratulate him on being secretary.
- [48:56]
A
Incoming Secretary of State.
- [48:58]
C
By the way, Marco will actually work. He actually does know what he's talking about. Here.
- [49:03]
B
It's working. There's no possible way.
- [49:17]
A
This has been. Pablo Torre finds out A Metal Arc Media production and we are produced by Walter Averoma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, neely Loman, Rob McRae, Rachel Miller, Howard, Ethan Schreier, Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Chris Tominello and Juliet Warren. Our studio engineering by RG Systems. Our sound design by NGW Post. Our theme song, as always, by John Bravo and we will talk to you next time.