Podcast Summary: "The Sporting Class: Caitlin Clark's Next Big Payday"
Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out
Host: Pablo Torre, Le Batard & Friends
Guests: David Samson, John Skipper
Episode Date: November 15, 2024
Overview
In this episode, Pablo Torre is joined by David Samson (former MLB executive, frequent PTFO guest) and John Skipper (former ESPN president, current Meadowlark Media executive) for a deep-dive discussion into the intersection of sports, politics, and business, set against the backdrop of the recent U.S. presidential election. The major focus is the economics of modern sports ownership—especially women's basketball—and the enormous potential impact if superstar Caitlin Clark joins the new Unrivaled three-on-three league. The group explores the implications of political changes for sports tycoons and the unique role that transcendent athletes like Clark can play in transforming leagues overnight.
Key Topics & Insights
1. Rich Guys, Politics, and Sports Ownership
- Opening Banter and Election Aftermath ([00:36]–[05:00])
- Lighthearted discussion about old chewing gum under desks leads into more serious talk about the U.S. election and its effect on wealthy sports owners.
- David Samson and John Skipper share personal experiences with political figures (including Marco Rubio and Norman Braman, prominent billionaire and sports team owner).
- Quote:
David Samson: “He [Norman Braman] became an anti public financing hawk... He became this bitter crazy man who sued us. And I ended up in court next to Norman Braman on the other side and kicked his absolute ass at every turn.” ([05:57])
- Quote:
- How Billionaires Think About Teams ([07:20]–[10:05])
- John Skipper on teams as status symbols:
“There are 32 NFL teams. There are 34 Vermeers. So every billionaire wants to buy art. I want to buy a team.” ([07:37])
- John Skipper on teams as status symbols:
2. Political Tides and the Business of Sports
- Team Owners’ Political Preferences ([10:05]–[12:40])
- Discussion about how sports leagues and owners benefit from Republican victories; easier regulatory environment, favorable tax codes, and antitrust leniency.
- Owners often straddle party lines financially for business reasons.
- David Samson: “Trump winning benefits the leagues as entities and the owners who own those teams... there’s the DOJ not being up in anyone’s kitchen about antitrust.” ([11:13])
- Owners may disguise their motivations with broader issues, but fundamentally it's about their business interests.
- Taxes, Capital Gains & Estate Tax ([13:12]–[18:04])
- Samson explains how lower capital gains and estate taxes directly impact big owners.
- Also covers how those against higher taxes rarely refuse to take economic advantage, regardless of their election choices.
- Banter on explaining capital gains vs. Pol Pot references, with playful jabs at each other's knowledge base.
3. Women’s Basketball, Athlete Pay, and the Unrivaled League
- Rise of Women’s Sports and League Innovation
([19:29]–[24:26])- Turn to Caitlin Clark as the most culturally unifying athlete since Donald Trump: “Caitlin Clark feels monocultural at a time when nobody short of Donald Trump necessarily feels that way.” ([19:29])
- John Skipper discloses his stake in Unrivaled, a new 3x3 women’s league airing on TNT Sports and playing in a bespoke, intimate Miami venue focused on broadcast, not ticket sales.
- Skipper: “It's intended to put the highlight on the game as it is seen by its principal audience... which is the television audience.” ([22:33])
- Closing the Pay Gap: Why Unrivaled Exists
([23:46]–[26:19])- WNBA off-season as a financial necessity: U.S. stars often forced to play in Russia, China, or Turkey (oligarch-owned teams) for meaningful pay.
4. Caitlin Clark: The Biggest Name and the Biggest Payday
- Clark’s Transformational Value
([27:33]–[39:09])- Unrivaled has signed most of the top WNBA players—but not Caitlin Clark, the league’s dream signing.
- David Samson: “She’s bigger than even Shohei Ohtani... No free agent like her in the world, male or female, currently.” ([28:20])
- Messi-Like Deal: Rumors (not confirmed by Skipper) of a “Messi-like” offer—a reference to Lionel Messi’s MLS deal including salary, equity, & revenue share—in play for Clark.
- Skipper: “We have made her a very attractive offer. I won't characterize whether it's Messi or Messi-like.” ([31:34])
- Economic Rationale and Equity for Players
([32:10]–[34:15])- Unrivaled gives every player equity; co-founders (Nafisa Collier, Breanna Stewart) have top deals, but Clark could command more due to her measurable value.
- Discussion of how equity will vest; structure protects flexibility for future stars.
- Samson: “When you give equity away... you only get to do it once. You don't get a second chance.” ([33:53])
- What Would You Pay a True Game-Changer?
([36:25]–[39:09])- Samson never saw a single MLB player so valuable as to immediately pay for his entire salary except possibly Clark for Unrivaled.
- Samson: “There's never been a player that exists like that... Caitlin Clark with unrivaled would be the example where she will bring with her a pot of money that otherwise would not be available to unrivaled.” ([37:11])
5. Negotiation Realities & Analogies
- What Actually Sways Star Athletes ([40:42]–[45:45])
- Both Skipper and Samson recall that, in professional settings, the highest bidder almost always wins—players or properties rarely take less money for intangible benefits, with rare exceptions.
- Skipper: “I can only remember two rights deals in the history of all the deals I did where somebody took less money.” ([43:20])
- Negotiating with stars is about being direct and businesslike; extra perks may matter, but money talks first and loudest.
- Both Skipper and Samson recall that, in professional settings, the highest bidder almost always wins—players or properties rarely take less money for intangible benefits, with rare exceptions.
6. End Reflections & Takeaways
- What Did We Find Out Today? ([48:12]–[49:16])
- Samson: “I actually found out that John has masterminded an incredibly interesting business in Unrivaled that really has a chance to work.”
- Skipper: Gives credit to league founders Alex Bazelle, Nafisa Collier, and Breanna Stewart; expresses pride and excitement for Unrivaled.
Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)
-
On Billionaires and Sports Teams
John Skipper: "There are 32 NFL teams. There are 34 Vermeers. So every billionaire wants to buy art. I want to buy a team." ([07:37]) -
On Political and Economic Motives
David Samson: “Trump winning benefits the leagues as entities and the owners who own those teams, whether it’s through capital gains taxes, myriad tax loopholes, the DOJ not being up in anyone’s kitchen about antitrust." ([11:13]) -
On Caitlin Clark’s Value
David Samson: “She’s bigger than even Shohei Otani... There’s no free agent like her in the world, male or female, currently.” ([28:20])
“Caitlin Clark with unrivaled would be the example where she will bring with her a pot of money that otherwise would not be available to unrivaled.” ([37:11]) -
On Equity for Athletes
John Skipper: “Every player has equity in the league. All 30 of the women signed have equity in the league. Now Nafisa Collier and Breanna Stewart are co-founders. So nobody will get a better deal than the co-founders.” ([32:10]) -
On Athlete Negotiation Realities
Skipper: “I can only remember two rights deals in the history of all the deals I did where somebody took less money.” ([43:20])
Timestamps for Important Segments
- [00:36] – Opening banter, gum under desks, segue to politics
- [05:11] – Norman Braman, billionaire team owner, impact on local politics
- [10:05] – Owners’ political alignment post-election, business benefits
- [13:12] – Tax policy’s direct impact on leagues and owners
- [19:29] – Caitlin Clark as a "monocultural" sports figure
- [20:21] – Unrivaled league explained, innovative TV-focused venue
- [27:33] – Caitlin Clark’s star power and negotiations with Unrivaled
- [31:34] – Rumors and realities of a “Messi-like” deal for Clark
- [32:10] – Equity deals for league players, structure and risk
- [36:25] – Samson on the unprecedented economic leverage of a Caitlin Clark-type signing
- [40:42] – Realities of why stars sign: almost always for the most money
- [43:20] – Broadcast rights analogy: only rare exceptions where legacy beats money
- [48:12] – Closing reflections, what hosts and guests “found out” today
Tone & Style
The conversation is conversational, witty, and sometimes irreverent—true to PTFO’s style—with plenty of sharp business insights, references to history and pop culture, and a willingness to digress. The interplay between hard-nosed economics and playful banter makes for an engaging and revealing exploration.
Final Thoughts
This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in the business of sports, the politics of sports ownership, and the changing landscape of women’s professional athletics. The discussion on Caitlin Clark’s seismic potential value to a startup league is particularly illuminating, as is the straight talk about how money, not sentiment, drives big decisions in pro sports.