The Sporting Class: Cooperstown Prom Kings, WNBA Protests & What Owners Want

Summary

Pablo Torre Finds Out: The Sporting Class – Cooperstown Prom Kings, WNBA Protests & What Owners Want

Episode: The Sporting Class: Cooperstown Prom Kings, WNBA Protests & What Owners Want
Release Date: August 1, 2025
Hosts: Pablo Torre, David Sampson, John Skipper
Guest: David Sampson and John Skipper

---

Introduction and Setting the Stage

The episode kicks off with a light-hearted exchange among the hosts, Pablo Torre, David Sampson, and John Skipper, discussing personal anecdotes and playful banter about their attire and appearances. This initial rapport sets a casual tone before delving into the episode's main topics.

---

Hall of Fame Weekend Reflections [07:52 – 13:19]

David Sampson recounts his experience attending the Hall of Fame weekend in Cooperstown, highlighting interactions with legendary figures like Ichiro Suzuki and Carlton Fisk. He shares personal moments, such as being publicly acknowledged by Ichiro during his acceptance speech, emphasizing the prestige and emotional significance of the event.

• Notable Quote:
  “I was a guest of Ichiro and I was there with Mike Hill and he and I were instrumental in extending his career because he played three years with the Marlins.” ([08:17])

This segment underscores the reverence and admiration held for Hall of Fame inductees, blending personal storytelling with reflections on baseball's rich history.

---

WNBA All-Star Weekend and Player Protests [13:19 – 35:15]

Transitioning to contemporary sports issues, the discussion shifts to the WNBA All-Star Weekend, focusing on player protests demanding higher salaries. The players, supported by chants like "Pay them," are pushing for better compensation amid ongoing labor negotiations.

John Skipper, former ESPN president and current Unrivaled co-owner, provides insight into the financial dynamics of the WNBA. He explains that WNBA teams often operate at a loss, relying on revenues that are insufficient to meet player salary demands. This financial strain contrasts sharply with the NBA, where player salaries are significantly higher.

• Notable Quote:
  “If I were the league, I'd say, fine. If any players would like to take half of their money or give up half of their salary and take a piece, we, the league will have a…” ([43:08])

David Sampson challenges the logic behind the players' demands, arguing that comparisons to other sports like tennis, where prize money is equal, are unrealistic in the context of basketball's revenue structures.

• Notable Quote:
  “It's not realistic.” ([20:11])

The hosts debate the feasibility of tying player salaries to league valuations instead of current revenues, with John Skipper advocating for a model where player compensation is a percentage of league revenues, similar to the NBA's structure.

• Notable Quote:
  “I think it understandable and comprehensible why the WNBA players are anxious to get paid more money.” ([17:32])

This segment highlights the tension between player aspirations for higher wages and the economic realities faced by WNBA franchises, emphasizing the complexities of sports labor negotiations.

---

Economic Realities and Team Valuations [35:15 – 53:43]

The conversation delves deeper into the economics of running a sports team, particularly within the WNBA. John Skipper argues that team valuations, often inflated by market demand and investment, do not directly translate to player salaries. He critiques the notion of equating team worth with player compensation, stressing that profits are typically reinvested or used to pay down debts rather than directly enhancing player wages.

• Notable Quote:
  “Nobody does. I go to all these conferences where they try to do valuations for sports teams and based upon X times earnings and it's just bull.” ([31:05])

David Sampson counters by emphasizing that operating at a loss is unsustainable for businesses, including sports franchises. He draws parallels to other industries where prolonged financial losses without a clear path to profitability are deemed irresponsible.

• Notable Quote:
  “I view those as synonymous when it comes to a business. It is.” ([46:29])

The hosts explore the impact of alternative leagues like Unrivaled on the WNBA, discussing how increased visibility from competitors could both benefit and challenge the established league. John Skipper asserts that such competitors can coexist without negatively affecting the WNBA, promoting a vision of collaborative growth rather than direct competition.

• Notable Quote:
  “I don't see any problem with that. The problem here is a lack of vision on both sides to say let's actually use this moment of momentum to build something and let's build it together.” ([39:13])

The discussion also touches on equity proposals from high-profile athletes like Steph Curry, questioning why player contracts aren't linked to team valuations if such equity is desirable. John Skipper dismisses the practicality of tying salaries to valuations, likening it to art where labor isn't typically monetized in such a manner.

• Notable Quote:
  “If you were to ask them, what do you think a WNBA player makes, they would all imagine a number that is over the reality.” ([35:30])

The segment concludes with reflections on the challenges of aligning player compensation with the financial strategies of team owners, highlighting the inherent conflicts between immediate player demands and long-term business sustainability.

---

Closing Remarks and Production Credits [53:40 – End]

Pablo Torre wraps up the discussion by acknowledging the complex interplay between sports economics and labor relations. He thanks the guests for their insights and previews the production team responsible for the episode.

---

Key Takeaways

1. WNBA Salary Disparities: WNBA players are advocating for higher salaries, drawing attention to the significant pay gap compared to their NBA counterparts. However, the financial structures of WNBA franchises make substantial salary increases challenging.

2. Team Valuations vs. Operating Revenues: There's a debate on whether player salaries should be tied to team valuations or current revenues. Critics argue that valuations are often speculative and do not reflect immediate financial realities.

3. Impact of Alternative Leagues: The emergence of leagues like Unrivaled introduces both competition and increased visibility for women's basketball, presenting opportunities and challenges for the WNBA.

4. Sustainability of Sports Franchises: Operating at a loss is contentious, with some arguing it's untenable for long-term business health, while others believe in investing for future profitability or greater returns upon sale.

5. Labor Negotiations Complexity: Labor talks in sports are multifaceted, involving emotional appeals from players and pragmatic financial considerations from management, often leading to friction and differing perspectives.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• David Sampson [08:17]:
  “I was a guest of Ichiro and I was there with Mike Hill and he and I were instrumental in extending his career because he played three years with the Marlins.”

• David Sampson [17:32]:
  “And they have revenues. They can only pay the players salaries from those revenues. In many cases they don't.”

• John Skipper [31:05]:
  “I have a business solution. Get. Get a math genius.”

• David Sampson [35:30]:
  “What do you think a WNBA player makes, they would all imagine a number that is over the reality.”

• John Skipper [39:13]:
  “I don't see any problem with that. The problem here is a lack of vision on both sides to say let's actually use this moment of momentum to build something and let's build it together.”

• Pablo Torre [43:08]:
  “I wanted to respond to him, which is that how come you all have a collective bargain agreement where your salaries are tied to revenue, not valuation if you're so interested in valuation as a concept.”

• David Sampson [46:29]:
  “I, I view those as synonymous when it comes to a business. It is.”

---

Conclusion

This episode of Pablo Torre Finds Out offers a deep dive into the financial intricacies of professional women's basketball, the challenges of labor negotiations, and the broader implications of sports economics. Through candid discussions among industry insiders, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the delicate balance between player advocacy for fair compensation and the economic constraints faced by sports franchises.

---

Follow PTFO:
YouTube | Instagram | X | Newsletter

---

Produced by Walter Abaroma Maxwell, Carney, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Loman, Rob McRae, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, and Chris Tuminello. Studio engineering by RG Systems. Sound design by NGW. Post theme song by John Bravo.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Foreign Torre. And this episode of Pablo Torre Finds out is brought to you by Remy Martin. 1738 Accord Royale. Exceptionally smooth cognac for all your game day festivities. Please drink responsibly because today we're going to find out what this sound is.

[David Sampson]

Your whole career, your whole wealth is based on capitalism and the way you made money for yourself and other people. And now you sit here and say, you know, losing $11 million a year, big whoop. Your asset went up by more right after this ad. Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze. Talk about refreshing. You know what else is refreshing this summer? A brand new phone with Verizon. Yep. Get a new phone on any plan with select phone, trade in and MyPlan and lock down a low price for three years on any plan with MyPlan. This is a deal for everyone, whether you're a new or existing customer. Swing by Verizon today for our best phone deals. 3 year price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate only. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.

[John Skipper]

You say you'll never join the Navy, that you'd never track storms brewing in the Atlantic and skydiving could never be part of your commute. You'd never climb Mount Fuji on a port visit or fly so fast you break the sound barrier. Joining the Navy sounds crazy. Saying never actually is. Start your journey at navy.com, america's Navy, forged by the sea. You say you'll never join the Navy, never climb Mount Fuji on a port visit, or break the sound barrier. Joining the Navy sounds crazy. Saying never actually is. Learn [e-mail], america's Navy, forged by the sea.

[Pablo Torre]

People are wondering where we've been. It's been a while. Hello, John. Hello, David.

[David Sampson]

Hi, Pablo.

[Pablo Torre]

Really? That's the timing we're gonna have today.

[David Sampson]

Same sweater.

[Pablo Torre]

How many Mississippi's was that? Before you say hello? Yeah. You're big. Hold on. You're making fun of my sweater.

[David Sampson]

I'm not making.

[Pablo Torre]

Can we visually describe the scene here right now? Am I going crazy?

[David Sampson]

Well, John's in an old Navy striped shirt that I assume he wore in elementary school.

[John Skipper]

And it fit me.

[David Sampson]

It's the best I can come up with.

[Pablo Torre]

John looks European. He looks like he should be pedaling a bicycle with a baguette in the basket and a beret. David looks like what I see when I'm on mushrooms.

[John Skipper]

Wow, that's a bad trip.

[David Sampson]

I think it's a great.

[John Skipper]

It's a good. It's a good coat.

[David Sampson]

But a bad trip is A bad trip.

[John Skipper]

Just suggesting that when I take mushrooms, I'm not looking to have bad visions of my friends.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, if you look. If you look deeper into this, you might see childhood.

[David Sampson]

So this is a blazer that is, I have not worn yet.

[Pablo Torre]

How do you describe the pattern for people just listening to us?

[David Sampson]

It's paisley.

[John Skipper]

It's pastel paisley.

[David Sampson]

It's. It's a pastel paisley.

[Pablo Torre]

Psychedelic pastel. Paisley.

[David Sampson]

Well, those are all words that you could use to describe it. It's just. This is an important show. Since we've last been here, you're a top 100 podcast of all time. Of all time.

[Pablo Torre]

All time.

[David Sampson]

And this is.

[Pablo Torre]

John doesn't even know. John was literally somewhere else, I would.

[John Skipper]

Assume with a bullet.

[Pablo Torre]

John has been traveling the earth and I have not seen him since the last show we did. And yes, I am.

[David Sampson]

He's happy.

[Pablo Torre]

I know he looks refreshed.

[David Sampson]

No. Anything. You have no bags under your eyes. I just think we should get down to business because we have two months worth of stuff to talk about and we only have one episode. I know, and I just feel it's important to get John when we can get him.

[John Skipper]

I do want to point out that that jacket, I think, is a haberdashery version of predeterminism.

[David Sampson]

I resent and do not resemble anything that says and means haberdashery. I don't view.

[Pablo Torre]

I was. I was focused on that.

[David Sampson]

It's actually the model who wears this on the Robert Graham website is extremely good looking.

[John Skipper]

I was simply pointing out that before you attribute any. We're gonna find motives for wearing this particular jacket. You have told me multiple times that it is complete happenstance.

[David Sampson]

This is new, though. So when you buy a new jacket.

[John Skipper]

Top of the cube.

[David Sampson]

No, I get to put it anywhere I want. So I put it in.

[Pablo Torre]

Wow. See, I didn't know that either.

[John Skipper]

Well, so you're. God, you're predetermining. When it's coming up.

[David Sampson]

When it's a new blazer, it's not in the rotation, therefore it gets put into and I get to place it. It's sort of like the choice you make when you play a game. Like, when do you drop, like the third ball or like in a pinball? When do you do it? When you have multiple pinballs. And I want to do it because Pablo show is one of the best podcasts of all time.

[John Skipper]

What? Top 100, I hear.

[David Sampson]

I heard that too.

[John Skipper]

Yeah. So thank you. So you put that in the queue.

[David Sampson]

To correlate with this day with this recording. Yes, I did. Yes, I did.

[Unknown]

You guys ever look at your bank account and think, wait a second, where did all my money go? That's been me lately. And listen. Got the 6 month old baby buying diapers, wipes, teething, toys. And before I start realizing how much I've been spending on takeout because we're too tired to cook. All these things cost money. Enter Monarch Money. This thing has been a lifesaver. It's not just a budgeting app. It's like having a personal CFO who actually cares. Monarch connects all your accounts, investments, credit cards, even those old ones you forgot you had, and gives you a full picture of where your money's going.

[Pablo Torre]

Spoiler alert.

[Unknown]

Mine was going to coffee, it was going to baby clothes, it was going to diapers, it was going to new seats that we have to put her in because now she sits up by herself. A lot of money being spent on the baby. What I really love is how easy it is to use with my wife. We check in with each other, set goals for the future, track big expenses, and for once, it doesn't feel stressful. Not saying we're ready to buy her a pony. Especially not a dog. Again, I love dogs. Over there, somebody else's dog. Grandma and grandpa have a dog.

[Pablo Torre]

Amazing.

[Unknown]

I love that. Not in my house, but we can see the path that we want to build together. Get control of your overall finances with Monarch Money. Use code danonarchmoney.com in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year at monarchmoney.com with promo code [e-mail] it's not.

[Pablo Torre]

Just about window treatments. It's about you. Your style, your space, your way. Whether you DIY or want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100% satisfaction guarantee, everything we do is made to fit your life and and your windows. [e-mail] the only thing we treat better than Windows is you. Visit blinds.com now for up to 45% off site wide plus a professional measure at no cost. Rules and restrictions apply. As you guys fist bump each other. I want to acknowledge that when it comes to all time greatness, I'm not the only person with an update on the immortality front. Because David, John, while you were somewhere gallivanting. Gallivanting in a foreign land and I was in the mines podcasting, David was in Cooperstown and someone else noticed. And to The Miami Marlins.

[John Skipper]

I appreciate David Sampson and Mike Hill for coming today. Honestly, when you guys called to offer me a contract for 2015, I have never heard of your team.

[David Sampson]

Fantastic.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh my God.

[John Skipper]

I was gonna ask whether the Marlins had won a World Series.

[David Sampson]

We had.

[John Skipper]

So he had never heard of a team that had won the World Series.

[David Sampson]

Yet also at the time had been 8 for 41 against us. Just throwing that. I mean, just in case there was.

[Pablo Torre]

Any question, were you holding a counter rally for one of the most decorated and no doubt hall of Famers in the history of sports?

[David Sampson]

I love Ichiro and here's what I was warned. I did not know what he was going to say, nor did I know he was going to actually say my name. What I did know from Ichiro is, hey, I can't wait for you to tell me what. Whether you like my speech. And that was the only clue I had. I thought of calling you to see if you could find a copy. Oh yeah, because getting the copy prior, you would have known. It's all English except for one Japanese sentence said to Hideo nomo, but the rest was all in English. And maybe you would have found out what the joke was going to be because there were many jokes. Cuz he's a funny guy. After the ceremony, we're taking photos and I look at each.

[Pablo Torre]

You're a special guest of Ichiro. We should spell this out.

[David Sampson]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

For all of the insulting. Like with us on the sporting class, we actually invite you to do this with us.

[David Sampson]

I don't. Yes, thank you. I don't just show up. This is not exactly convenient to just show up, Pablo. Although maybe in the future you'll make it even less convenient than this. But I don't know how that's possible. So, yes, I was a guest of Ichiro and I was there with Mike Hill and he and I were instrumental in extending his career because he played three years with the Marlins. John, after his career may have been done and we ended up striking a great relationship. And after the ceremony, after this, which became the hit of the viral. Immediately, immediately Ichiro looked at me and I looked at him and I did one of these. I don't know what to do because I do a lot of bowing. I. There's a lot of different. Talking with your eyes to Ichiro. And I just looked and I went and I gave a little wink.

[John Skipper]

You're talking with your eyes.

[David Sampson]

I.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[John Skipper]

This is this.

[David Sampson]

Like haven't you ever done that?

[John Skipper]

What does Newt say in Bull Durham? Is he doing the lizard Thing with his eyes.

[David Sampson]

I just think it's important to communicate however you need to communicate. And I wanted him to know because he didn't want me to hear it before, but wanted to make sure that I was good.

[John Skipper]

It was lovely.

[David Sampson]

And I was very good.

[John Skipper]

Good.

[David Sampson]

My name was called out in the hall of Fame acceptance speech by the greatest player, maybe ever.

[John Skipper]

It came with a strong animal, strong hairline.

[Pablo Torre]

By the way.

[David Sampson]

Ageless.

[Pablo Torre]

He is a style icon.

[John Skipper]

Well, he's not ageless. It's gray. It's strong gray.

[Pablo Torre]

Distinguished. A distinguished.

[David Sampson]

That's true. He could still play. I told him that this weekend, that if I were still running a team, he'd be one. At 26, he prepares as much as anyone else.

[Pablo Torre]

I feel like that is both a great compliment to each row and a great insult to your general managing abilities.

[John Skipper]

He won a World Series.

[David Sampson]

It was a great weekend. Being surrounded by greatness, which I sometimes feel like in this room I am as well. But I like being surrounded by greatness. And when you see Sandy Koufax, when you see Juan Marshall or Tony Perez. Carlton Fisk.

[Pablo Torre]

Did you wink at Carlton Fisk?

[David Sampson]

You don't really talk to Carlton Fisk.

[John Skipper]

You don't talk to him with your eyes.

[David Sampson]

There's certain rules with Carlton Fisk because.

[John Skipper]

He had that mask on the whole time. So you really couldn't communicate with your.

[David Sampson]

Eyes the way you can talk to Wade Boggs. Easy, Easy. Very easy to talk to. You just have to bring a beer. You bring a beer to here.

[Pablo Torre]

70, you can.

[David Sampson]

He was.

[Pablo Torre]

Who was the MVP of Hall of Fame weekend.

[David Sampson]

How do you not say? Ichiro. But in terms of appearance, the prom.

[Pablo Torre]

King of All Stars, having Sandy Koufax.

[David Sampson]

There, 89 years old, and he's, you know. And also the specter of. Of Ryan Sandberg passing away very soon after. He ended up dying the next day. And was it well known.

[John Skipper]

Was it known that he was very ill?

[David Sampson]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

The. The idea that this is. And I was. When you told me that you were going, I was very, as a fan of baseball, jealous, because it feels like a fantasy camp kind of experience. But then you also realize that it's like the thing that all the hall of Famers actually genuinely want to go to. It's kind of part of the point of being in the hall of Fame. It. It makes me laugh even more at the idea that there you are just winking at people.

[David Sampson]

Well, each of the others I spoke to and I got to introduce. I got to have a father moment that I don't Know if it worked.

[Pablo Torre]

What does that mean?

[David Sampson]

That I brought my son who grew up around baseball, but then I was introducing him to hall of Famers who he had not had the chance to meet, who weren't playing necessarily when he was. When I was in baseball. And he brought a friend. The friend was very impressed. My son seemed less so, which may have been more a function of my fathering in general versus that specific weekend, though I don't know the answer.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[David Sampson]

And I can't ask him. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[David Sampson]

I just let it go. But it was a special weekend. And I would only tell you that if you have an opportunity to go to Cooperstown and to witness the hall of Fame in Cooperstown, to me, shows the history of our sport. And I've been to other hall of Fames. It's just a better hall of Fame.

[Pablo Torre]

You're saying if you have a chance to get shouted out personally by Ichiro Suzuki on Hall of Fame weekend, you.

[David Sampson]

Should take it if you can.

[Pablo Torre]

As always, very relatable advice from the sporting class. What we do here is something that I've genuinely been looking forward to, by the way, in a predetermined fashion even, because there is a topic that I think of you guys specifically about as I'm watching another topic course through the Internet discourse. And this was about another special event in the summer sports calendar. It was WNBA All Star Weekend. And the story there, John, was essentially player protest, player complaints about bleep you pay me. I mean, that was not literally what the shirt said, but it was basically what the shirt said. A lot of players saying amid cba, essentially pre negotiation that we need more money. It's finally time.

[David Sampson]

Has there ever been a negotiation where the one side doesn't say we need more money? I think that's the baseline of a negotiation.

[John Skipper]

Well, actually, it's both sides saying they need more money.

[David Sampson]

It's true. I want to give you less so I can keep more. Well, yeah, the players were out of hand during that all, but the fans.

[Pablo Torre]

Were also chanting pay them throughout the arena. And that's, by the way, also a bit different. Right. And so this is a story we have talked about fairly glancingly in the past, but I want to set up who we have here to talk about it, because John Skipper was the president of ESPN when they were negotiating the media rights deals for the wnba, which is sort of like Russian nested doll. Russian nesting dolled inside of the NBA rights deal. As you've established before, Jon now is a part owner in Unrivaled, which is a key player in the whole question of leverage that the players have. The WNBA and David has always been a skeptic of all things labor that's incorrect as management.

[David Sampson]

Yeah, I'm not skeptical. I'm just aware of what it is that both sides are trying to accomplish and the ways in which they do it.

[Pablo Torre]

So John, this argument, this seeming consensus among the players with the fans noticing, oh, wait a minute, hold on. So the league's highest paid player is on a three year deal worth about $700,000 total. I mean, this is part of why Unrivaled was formed. I want to disclose that again. This is not immaterial to the debates. So how do you begin to think about this out loud?

[John Skipper]

Well, I think it understandable and comprehensible why the WNBA players are anxious to get paid more money. What they do, only 300 people in the world can do, right? They play at the highest level. They look across the arena, across town and see their male counterparts parts making $60 million a year. An individual player contracts 4 or 500 million. They then use faulty reasoning to look at their attendance, to look at their number of fans, social followers and go, well, we're a substantial minority fraction of what the NBA is, so the salary should correlate to that. And it has almost nothing to do with the ratings. That is the most specious logic going on. Oh, our games get, I make it up a million viewers. The NBA games get two and a half. Well, there's two and a half to one, right? The answer is no, that's wrong. It doesn't work that way. What matters, these are businesses, right? They are, in the WNBA's case, it's an aggregated team business. But they have revenues. They can only pay the players salaries from those revenues. In many cases they don't.

[David Sampson]

They're taking losses, John. They haven't even paid them from the salary.

[John Skipper]

Well, I was going to make the distinction between gross revenues and net revenue because many of these teams still lose money. Even paying only $70,000 for a rookie, only $700,000 for the best player in the league for three years. So I get it emotionally, psychologically, I even get it logically. It's just the delta between what the WNBA owners, including the league, and what the players think the next CBA is going to uncover is huge. Everybody does the math of, oh, you used to have $60 million immediate rights, now you have 200 and somewhere between 200 and 250. Oh, salary is going to go up four times, right? And they don't even. I would assume that most of the players would not consider a $2.8 million over three years or a $210,000 rookie maximum as where they would like to be even higher.

[David Sampson]

And by the way, the shirt said pay us what you owe us is my recollection. And that always made me smile because that is a term of art when someone says you owe me money. That's got to be the basis of an agreement where someone done their side of the bargain. Because there is no way in the history of labor and management where there is a systematic way at a bargaining table. You say, by the way, you owe me this. So give me this in this agreement because you owe me from last agreement. That is not in the history of how it goes. I would love to have gone to ESPN during negotiating, say, John, you owe us because you underpaid the last deal. So please do better than. Than you need to for this one to make it right. It. It's. It's literally ridiculous. That's only the first part of their position.

[John Skipper]

I, I did hear that about 683 times.

[David Sampson]

How'd that go? Did you give in?

[John Skipper]

No, I ignored it.

[David Sampson]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

So, but, but okay, hold on. I want to parse. I want to, I want to parse the saber rattling, the shirt rattling, right? Which is trying to frame the debate in a way that of course, the fans who are chanting pay them might be able to jump on alongside them with. And I want to get to just the question of how the math actually works. Right? So what is clear to me is that of course, you're not looking for a dollar for dollar equivalency with the NBA. That would be insane.

[David Sampson]

But I believe it's not insane. The tennis players, they're doing, they have the same prize money in tournaments. They fought for equality. So the thought is, why aren't we fighting for equality in women's basketball and men's basketball? They do it in tennis. So it's not insane. It's just. It's not realistic.

[Pablo Torre]

So, so I suppose that I am here to put my thumb on the messaging scale, would say, do not argue for that. That's very unrealistic, borderline insane. But instead, as a matter, as a matter of percentage, like, let's talk about just percentage, right? Not raw total dollars, but just what would be fair for the players to request as a matter of a percentage of the pot. So where does that bring us when, you know, again, the, the, the, the landscape of women's basketball is now quite different. Right Before WNBA Players in the off season, if they need to make more money, they go to Russia or Turkey or wherever, overseas, wherever. John was hanging out in the last couple weeks now scouting in Russia. Now they go to Miami. They go to unrivaled. And here's just some of the. The basic math on that is John Unrivaled was paying Paige beckers, you know, 350, $400,000 for a single season. Season. That's way shorter. Eight to 10 weeks, right? John's chewing ice. This is a negotiating technique.

[David Sampson]

What are you doing?

[John Skipper]

Did you hear it?

[Pablo Torre]

Asmr. Ice chewing. Do you not like ice chewing?

[David Sampson]

We're in the middle of a show.

[John Skipper]

Sorry. I was trying to step back and Matt Coca kept saying, get closer.

[Pablo Torre]

So the.

[John Skipper]

I am an ice chewer. If I had ice in a glass.

[David Sampson]

I'd say we're doing a show.

[Pablo Torre]

The financial.

[John Skipper]

I just think of this as a conversation among friends.

[Pablo Torre]

I don't mind the ice. I do want to get back, though, from the ice crunching to the financial crunching. What does this do? Right? So, okay, the players can say we're going to go to unrivaled. We're going to go to this operation in Miami. I played 10 weeks. I get more than I would make in a year for a fraction of the time. So now there's a plausible threat. Right. And Athletes Unlimited is out there, too, but they pay way less for a shorter, even shorter season than unrivaled. So anyway, I'm saying, like they go to the bargaining table in real life. And what's the actual debate here, do you think?

[John Skipper]

Well, first of all, I do as you. I appreciate your pointing out the conflict I have. The salaries we pay them make sense. Within our business model, the greatest differential is we don't have arenas, we don't have big office running the league. We don't have but 40 some players. We're not paying for 15 players. We're paying for six for six teams. So the WNBA collective bargaining agreement has to follow the same rules we followed, which is they have to look at their business and figure out what is an important. A reasonable amount of that money to pay your players. If I were there, I would be thinking about trying to tie it to a salary cap to league revenues. Then you can say we're all in this together.

[Pablo Torre]

A percentage of league revenues.

[David Sampson]

Yeah.

[John Skipper]

And I believe the percentage of revenues that the NBA players get is 51.

[David Sampson]

Call it anywhere between 48 and 51. But here's the problem, and we cover this on sporting class. What exactly Is the revenue for the wnba. Because the argument that the owners are going to make and they're going to make it correctly, is that that TV revenue that you're trying to count Allin as just for you. That was a gift. And you and I can disagree about this, but it was a double edged sword when it was announced what the WNBA deal was going to be.

[Pablo Torre]

The Russian nesting doll of WNBA living inside of the NBA.

[David Sampson]

There was no separate WNBA broadcasting deal. It was part of the NBA broadcasting deal. We talked about it on the show. The reason they pinned a higher number to it is that you wanted everyone to seem like, oh, the WNBA is healthy, everything's looking good. There's momentum. The downside of overestimating what the deal was, which you disagree was overestimated. But I don't. The downside's this, that the players now think, wait a minute, where's all this money going? And the answer is, John touched on it. There's tremendous overhead for the wnba. There is no profitability. And on top of that, any profitability that comes, the owners want to use it to pay down debt that was accrued to support the league for the decades when it was at a loss position. So you don't want to take the money that you get in and give it to your employees. You want to take it and give it back to the banks in order to lower your debt and try to make your money back.

[John Skipper]

Well, hopefully you don't want to give it to the banks. You may have to.

[David Sampson]

You got to banks back.

[John Skipper]

You should keep in mind that the nesting doll occurred in an environment. Do you know when David Levy and I negotiated the NBA deal in 2000? I don't know, 13, give or take. For 20, 15 through 24. You know how many bidders for the WNBA there were?

[David Sampson]

Hold on, let me count. Let me see if I have any fingers and toes. I'm gonna go with zero.

[John Skipper]

No, there's one.

[David Sampson]

You?

[John Skipper]

Yeah.

[David Sampson]

Okay, so.

[John Skipper]

No, no, I would have paid the money and. And more if I had to bid for it separately. So I do not believe. I think the nesting egg thing has been good.

[David Sampson]

Would you have taken it if you didn't get the NBA?

[John Skipper]

Yeah, sure I would. We were in the business of having a lot of sports and a lot of hours. We had the women's college basketball tournament when we did not have the men's college basketball tournament. So yeah, we would have taken it and we would have paid at least as much as we paid within the NBA. And while the dub NBA NBC has it within their NBA deal, there are other deals made that are outside and only small women's component. I do know that several people have suggested that Adam and I suppress the price. It's wrong. They would have in the free market. They would have. They had no bidders. That is how much the league has grown and gotten there. I do think that the NBA establishment, because remember, the league owns a piece of all teams. So they're oddly enough could be considered to have a bit of a conflict in this.

[Pablo Torre]

They own buildings, they own teams. These are all the entanglements that are really hard to isolate.

[John Skipper]

Even if it means that they don't solve all of their making money problems, they should solve their equality problem by saying you're going to make the same over certain amount of years, you're going to get the same disbursement of revenues the men get.

[Pablo Torre]

That's how we can be equal by percentage.

[David Sampson]

How do you say what the revenues are in the NBA? Far easier.

[John Skipper]

It may be far easier.

[Pablo Torre]

We should explain this.

[John Skipper]

I have a. I have a business solution. Get. Get a math genius.

[David Sampson]

An auditor would work.

[Pablo Torre]

Hold on. Let's drop that LinkedIn posting.

[David Sampson]

We need a math genius to help the WNBA. I just think that the reason why you're in for a labor stoppage is the expectations of the players. Not unlike in baseball. It's just unrealistic in terms of what they're hoping for.

[John Skipper]

It's a. It is the expectations of the players with the shortsightedness of the establishment, which is going to try now to make all the owners solvent, get them making money. The money owners, forget the horror. People are paying lots of money for the valuations and that's how the WNBA owners are eventually going to make money. So they're sitting there and complaining about I lost $11 million last year. Boo hoo. There's not any poor guys who own teams, first of all. And they are already getting 400, 500, $600 million valuations. So they can lose $11 million a year the way Mark Cuban did for a long time and still be in a revenue producing business. And that is buying your team, holding it and selling it for a huge multiple.

[David Sampson]

It's really amazing that you were ever in the corporate world because if you went to.

[John Skipper]

Well, I kind of never.

[David Sampson]

You kind of really were.

[Pablo Torre]

Listen to the show. He's the most socialist capitalist in sports business.

[David Sampson]

If you went to Bob Iger and said, listen, I, I understand that my division is getting crushed and we're going to need a distribution here from your division but don't you worry, we're buying stuff that if you sell it, you're going to get all your money back. How would. What would Bob Iger say to you?

[John Skipper]

Well, the Walt Disney Company is not analogous as a business to a sports league at all.

[David Sampson]

I don't agree.

[Pablo Torre]

Damn, there was some spice on that.

[John Skipper]

No, no. If you, at this point in the world, if you buy a sports team.

[David Sampson]

You'Re so anti rich people to live.

[John Skipper]

On the money you make from that team.

[David Sampson]

You are dressed like a schlep on purpose so people can think you're some sort of plebeian. It really makes me. I'm. The reason I'm tired of it, Pablo, is that people may get the impression that John has the best interests of the man in mind because he's so concerned. No, exactly. And so my issue is that your whole career, your whole wealth is based on capitalism and the way you made money for yourself and other people. And now you sit here and say, you know, losing $11 million a year, big whoop, your asset went up by more.

[John Skipper]

Yeah. I don't have any concern for the billionaires who own teams and are losing pocket change. On a WNBA team, it's fun to.

[David Sampson]

Count other people's money. I've never met a billionaire who looked at his losses as pocket change. I've just.

[John Skipper]

No, I didn't. And I find it astonishing.

[David Sampson]

Have you ever met one?

[John Skipper]

No, and I find it astonishingly obnoxious.

[David Sampson]

Until you were a billionaire and then you wouldn't find it obnoxious.

[John Skipper]

It is obnoxious.

[David Sampson]

Okay, I. I can't argue with you. Why? Do you know why casinos make more money on poor people? Because the richer you are, the less you gamble.

[John Skipper]

I don't gamble at all.

[David Sampson]

Exactly.

[John Skipper]

No, I just. I don't have any. It's. It's the same as. As when rich owners want the government to subsidize their stadiums.

[Pablo Torre]

So this is, this is, this is the point, I think, debate all this. Well, one of. I know. This is where we're debating literally the fundamental tenets of sports business, which is to say it's always the unholy amalgamate, the unholy amalgamation of ranks, rank capitalism, and also socialism, when convenient. This is the whole point of how you protect yourself as a very rich, wealthy person with lots of power in a club that you need to buy into. That's how this goes. And so of course, these tensions exist.

[John Skipper]

Anytime you have a business, you have to understand the nature by which you're going to make money. And there are different ways. You're not buying a sports team. And at this point, to make money on the earnings every year. Mark Cuban famously said, I'd rather lose money and win than make money and lose.

[Pablo Torre]

I introduce you now to the Miami.

[David Sampson]

Marlins, who that is not. No, we ended up losing money way more years than we made and we didn't win. Which is the worst plan ever.

[John Skipper]

And did it change the owner's lifestyle?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. What'd you sell that team for, David?

[David Sampson]

So the answer is it did not change his lifestyle.

[John Skipper]

And did you make all of that money back from the sale?

[David Sampson]

You bet your sweet bippy he did.

[John Skipper]

So who used to feel bad for them?

[David Sampson]

I. You don't understand. I'm not asking for the violin plane. I'm not. I'm asking you to not pander to the people thinking that you are them. That's all I've ever asked of this show is for you actually to acknowledge that you're not.

[John Skipper]

I have.

[David Sampson]

Where have you been for the last six weeks?

[John Skipper]

So I have to be heinous in order to.

[Pablo Torre]

Heinous Keep.

[David Sampson]

That's the keep. Let's talk about the WMA because I'm losing my mind.

[Pablo Torre]

I kind of like this, actually.

[David Sampson]

Keep.

[John Skipper]

I didn't grow up in that class. Well, that will make you angry. No, I did not.

[David Sampson]

No, but you spend more time talking about how you grew up. You know, I. The way I grew up. An SAT tutor. That was for the rich people.

[John Skipper]

Okay, I did. I am guessing you had a tutor. I did not have a tutor. And you may think that's posturing, but I did not.

[David Sampson]

Because you couldn't afford it.

[John Skipper]

Right.

[David Sampson]

I know.

[John Skipper]

And I continue to hold those values.

[David Sampson]

That your kids didn't have tutors.

[John Skipper]

No.

[David Sampson]

Nice.

[John Skipper]

Because the SCT doesn't matter.

[David Sampson]

Oh, sorry.

[John Skipper]

It doesn't.

[David Sampson]

It doesn't. The Andy has an answer for everything in order to keep the lie alive.

[Pablo Torre]

I love this.

[David Sampson]

I know you better than the audience does in this instance. And you continually trying to trick them with your positions. Today it's bothering me because, A, you're conflicted. And we can talk about unrivaled in the conflict that exists with the labor negotiations and that there are people from unrivaled who are negotiating with the WNBA's players and what a great position that is and the nightmare that could be if Adam Silver wakes up one day and says, you know what? I don't really want unrivaled to be around and what would happen then? Which isn't going to be an interesting Part of the negotiations.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, boy. That is the, that is the, the Fifth Amendment gesture we're seeing.

[David Sampson]

It's the COVID the mic while he chews ice.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, excuse me, excuse me.

[David Sampson]

A very different.

[Pablo Torre]

A very different amendment.

[David Sampson]

Muy pronto, conos precious.

[Pablo Torre]

Bajos de la vuelta.

[John Skipper]

Clases de Amazon. Amazon Gasta menos son riemas.

[Pablo Torre]

Look, I want to get to that, though, because something that Gabby Williams, who is a WNBA All Star, was saying at All Star Weekend was the WNBA wants to box out unrivaled and Athletes Unlimited and these competitors and they still don't want to pay us what we deserve. Right. And so two things are happening that I want to sort of merge in terms of the argument here. One is, what does team valuation mean when it comes to what you pay the players who arguably are responsible for a lot of the value that is increasing in those valuations? That's one argument we're having. The second argument is, if you're the wnba, what do you think of the fact that Unrivaled is around and trying to, you know, basically take advantage of the fact that all these players feel like they're vastly underpaid and objectively have a pretty strong argument.

[John Skipper]

So what does that mean, objectively? They had a pretty strong argument.

[Pablo Torre]

I, I think that if you were to show anybody what a WNBA player makes. Forget that. If you were to ask them, what do you think a WNBA player makes, they would all imagine a number that is over the reality.

[John Skipper]

So what, I mean, you say objectively now you're back to the. Because ratings are up because there's a lot of to do. In this case, I have a fundamental agreement with my friend David, which it has to be in the context of the business. It's not. You don't deserve, like I would say, given my politics, teachers deserve to make more money. Do they? Yeah. Are they going to make more money? No. So I don't know what this concept of deserve means. You deserve what you can negotiate, right?

[David Sampson]

That's all you get.

[John Skipper]

I'm simply saying that the owners and the league should have the foresight to understand that they're all got a payback coming. When this works, these teams will be worth a billion dollars. So I may have a dismissive manner, but it does not come from my dismissing anybody. It comes from wishing that those people could have more foresight beyond the, oh, I'm losing money right now. Did it change your life, Jeff Bezos? Does sucking up to Donald Trump change his life? If the Amazon stock goes down because the Washington Post. It does not.

[David Sampson]

That is so mischaracterized. His responsibility is to keep the stock going up, not just for him, but for all the institutional investors, for all the individual investors. That is what they. They're investing their money. His job is to increase the stock price. Of course it benefits him, but it's a public company. You're benefiting.

[John Skipper]

It may be a public company, but even as a public company, you should have the foresight and the responsibility go. There are things that are more important than my next quarterly earnings report. The fifth. The, the First Amendment should be one of those.

[David Sampson]

Should Disney not have done layoffs?

[John Skipper]

No, it's not.

[David Sampson]

Were you against Disney layoffs, which were. There was a quashing impact on stock price. The company was losing money, therefore they did layoffs.

[John Skipper]

No, I was not against layoffs. I am against the Walt Disney Company doing a settlement on a frivolous lawsuit by this president in order to curry favor because they think that'll be good for the stock. You. I don't think that's good for the country. And you're supposed to have something. Some things that rise above your ability to have money you can't spend.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, this is kind of where we can take our Thanksgiving dinner argument back to the rundown of the show. Right. The question that all of these teams are facing, that these unions are facing, is what leverage do we have? Is it an emotional moral appeal, which it feels like certainly underpayment to many, or is this the cold, hard math in which, by the way, you risk a further rift?

[David Sampson]

Why is WNBA 1 unrivaled to go away? And if you spoke to Adam, forget the fact that they're friends, forget the fact that John's involved. We. Why do you want your competition to go away? Because competition, when it's good, can have a negative impact on your ability to do business in the way you've been doing it and to have the margins that you've been having. If unrivaled or when unrivaled becomes a true competitor to the wnba. True. There's a different cost structure. True. They're not unionized. There's. There's a to Z differences. However, if you're the WNBA or really the NBA, you don't really want unrivaled around because it has a deleterious impact on your business and on the way your business is perceived.

[John Skipper]

Yeah, I would argue that's wrong. It actually has increased the visibility. Look what it's done for Nafisa. It's increased the visibility of the players it's made more people, women's basketball fans. We don't play during the same season. We are not competitors to them. These two leagues can coexist forever and it's fine. I don't see any problem with that. The problem here is a lack of vision on both sides to say let's actually use this moment of momentum to build something and let's build it together. You're not going to get your magic overnight 10x salary, but you're not going to get to abrogate your responsibility to pay these amazing athletes by pretending that you bought the team to live on. And if you look at the math, they should all be building team valuations because that's where everybody gets paid. You think anybody who owns an NFL team, there's a couple, there's a few owners who still are sort of hanging around, but for most of them it's a trophy that they bought after making a lot of money doing something else. And they enjoy it so much more than whatever else it was that they were doing, making money that it's worth it to them. Nobody does. I go to all these conferences where they try to do valuations for sports teams and based upon X times earnings and it's just bull. It's not how anybody makes money. You have an example here, though he will not admit it. Which is a woe begotten franchise down in Florida each year I've never heard of always struggled despite great management. It struggled in that market with that sport to make money. And if the collective bargaining agreement cannot be so that the most difficult franchises in the league can solve their financial problems, it's got to be a vision of how do we make this a billions of dollars franchise if they don't have that in mind? They're going to set themselves back and the league is trying to protect these semi owners and. And they want it both ways. Everybody would like to be the NFL. The teams make money and the valuations go up. That's the only sport, I think, where that's pretty much the occasion. Lots of English Premier League teams lose money and they don't care because they want to win.

[David Sampson]

They care tremendously.

[Pablo Torre]

But.

[David Sampson]

But earlier this week on Nothing Personal, Pablo, I did a segment on Steph Curry who did an interview and talked about that he wants a piece of the pie. He wants equity because the valuations have gone up during his career. And I wanted to respond to him, which is that how come you all have a collective bargain agreement where your salaries are tied to revenue, not valuation if you're so interested in valuation as a concept. Then why didn't you bargain that? Why didn't you negotiate?

[Pablo Torre]

Well, I haven't thought about this before.

[David Sampson]

And the reason nobody does is because it's total poppycock. You would never have an agreement where in the history of business, forget sports, where, oh, there's an enterprise valuation that could be based on myriad factors including irrationality and ego, and we're going to tie cost of labor to that. It. It's crazy to me, but John's arguing WNB James are now worth $600 million, maybe a billion dollars. Have the foreskin to pay him. Foresight.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, no, we're keeping that. That feels like a beyond Freudian slip.

[John Skipper]

The foreskin. Look, the.

[David Sampson]

I was just talking about a bris before it started, which is why that.

[Pablo Torre]

Was in my head when he said horror, I was like, horror.

[John Skipper]

By the way, it's a good question to ask Steph Curry. The, the answer to his question is he's not willing to forego his earnings. He wants to get paid today, and that's his right. But if I was the league, I'd say, fine. If any players would like to take half of their money or give up half of their salary and take a piece, we, the league will have a We'll take 10. I'm making it up. I know it's not feasible. We'll take 10% of all sales profits and will distribute those to the players who've decided they want to be in that business.

[Pablo Torre]

Sure.

[John Skipper]

They don't.

[Pablo Torre]

They don't want nor employee incentive program.

[John Skipper]

Nor need to be in that business. They don't need to be in that business. And by the way, I wouldn't do that if I was one of them. I'd take the money, invest it in something else. But why would I wait for it to happen? But to ignore the fact that that's there and just pretend they have to operate like businesses to like all other business. They have a specific part of their economic reality which is unlike almost anything else other than art and a few other sort of esoteric things. By the way, art, they don't tie to the labor to art. You don't go to a painter and say, we'd like you to take 50. All the it's just a different business to pretend that that shouldn't enter into a smart discussion you're having with the players, which is they should say they're not going to because I know how they work. They'll say, and they already did this clearly, and pissed the players off they went and said, well, you need to understand how hard it is for the owners. They've invested. They're still not making money. They should say all that. But they should say, guys, we have to take a long term view of this. You're not going to get what you want right now. We're not either. We're going to give you more money than the math would conjure.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, then the math genius might suggest.

[John Skipper]

Yeah, exactly. Gotta cut that out.

[David Sampson]

Not just three swears in the show. What are we doing?

[Pablo Torre]

I assume we're not bleeping poppycock. That feels.

[David Sampson]

And at least half.

[John Skipper]

Okay, I'm assuming we're not beeping ice. But, but that is, it is so much an important like, are we going.

[Pablo Torre]

To trump thing again? No, that was.

[John Skipper]

If you had a secret poll and ask all the owners why they bought a team, there would only be two answers trophy and I'm going to sell it someday and make a whole bunch of money. You think people balance.

[Pablo Torre]

I want David's thoughts on that and.

[John Skipper]

Go into an analysis of. Nobody buys a team who can't afford not to make money on it.

[David Sampson]

It's just not accurate. It's really not. So especially now with the valuations that you're seeing. So let's just talk about the Washington commanders. When you have a base that you're now in at $6 billion and you have private equity money in and you've got other people who are interested in roi, you cannot run it irresponsibly on an annual basis. You just don't have the capacity, you don't have the debt capacity and you certainly don't want to pump in cash. Josh Harris is not calling his investors and saying, hey, we need 20 million from you because of losses this year. He's just not doing it.

[John Skipper]

I, I don't believe I've suggested they should be run irresponsibly, therefore they should.

[David Sampson]

Be run responsibly, which equals profitably.

[John Skipper]

Not necessarily.

[David Sampson]

I, I view those as synonymous when it comes to a business. It is. It was irresponsible to be operating at a loss.

[Pablo Torre]

But to be clear though, right beyond sports teams, there are many businesses certainly in Silicon Valley that are being run at a loss because there is some vision for long term.

[David Sampson]

But they have massive. You say at a loss, they've got a sources and uses of funds, they've raised money with an understanding that for the first three years you need to Runway for R D, you're going to lose money and then either we're going to write off the investment, the company goes away. Or we're going to find the cure to cancer and we're all going to be rich. It's all part of the original plan. No. 1. Have you done a business plan, Pablo, where you say, hey, we have no path to profitability. I mean, other than.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, other than the one we're sitting at. I would like to compare myself to Open AI, by the way, which is absolutely explosively growing revenue while also struggling on the balance sheets.

[John Skipper]

So I must point out, David is so.

[Pablo Torre]

David.

[John Skipper]

David has given me like a pitch down the middle.

[Pablo Torre]

I know. All right.

[John Skipper]

He said I'm going to clear. He said. He said, you just discover the cure for cancer and get rich. So that. That is a capitalist who thinks that the motive.

[David Sampson]

Why else cure cancer is to get rich. Wait, what's the other reason again? I can't remember.

[John Skipper]

Save lives.

[David Sampson]

I forgot about that one. Thank you. Thank you. Like I've never had anyone in my family dying of cancer.

[John Skipper]

I didn't say that again. It's like a Freudian pitch.

[David Sampson]

It's like a Freudian pitch and move on, John. That's the key to great entertainment. Just hit it and then move on. Instead of talking about hitting it, I.

[Pablo Torre]

Would like to brush both of you off the plate for a second.

[John Skipper]

That's the difference between sports media and sports. We talk about the pitch.

[Pablo Torre]

That's true. The question of valuations. God, there's so much happening right now, and I'm trying to keep all the threads in order.

[David Sampson]

You got this?

[Pablo Torre]

Do I? The question of whether team valuations are just bullshit. Right? So you're describing, like art, to John's analogy. You're describing a very precious thing that everybody deeply cares about, in which the full monetary upside can only be realized at a point of sale. Right? And that could be driven by all sorts of things who sold right before you. Is some other external thing happening? Is there a asteroid?

[David Sampson]

Many things can impact estate planning.

[Pablo Torre]

Estate planning, right. Kids arguing it's not as much as a math genius might say. This is the formula. There are many variables that cannot be controlled is the reality of the sports valuation business. So when it comes to trying to price it out at a CBA negotiation, is it the question of agreeing on a math genius? A math genius. What are we doing here?

[David Sampson]

It never comes up, John. It just never comes up.

[John Skipper]

It never comes up in a bargaining.

[David Sampson]

In a bargaining table.

[John Skipper]

Of course it does not. Because the one side is worried about getting paid now, and the other side is trying to hoodwink the guys on the other side of the table that oh my gosh, we're having a tough time.

[David Sampson]

Oh, both sides have the audited statements. John, I don't know what world you're talking about. The players union has the audited statements of the teams. It's right there.

[John Skipper]

I'm suggesting that the core economics of a sports team are no longer about annual earnings in a report. They are about the valuation of teams.

[David Sampson]

Is unrivaled about annual earnings and profitability. Or is part of your business plan saying profitability? When we sell unrivaled, whether we sell it privately, whether we take a public, that's when we'll get paid.

[John Skipper]

Like lots of startups, we are not investing money to take profits out of the profits we are met. Taking money from. We are putting investments in.

[Pablo Torre]

That's what I'm saying.

[John Skipper]

In the hope of a financial transaction that we'll benefit from.

[David Sampson]

So you have no path to annual profitability.

[John Skipper]

We broke even this year and we'll make money next year. But nobody would have put the money in to take a division of the dividends. And we are planning for a financial transaction.

[David Sampson]

I understand the word salad and I think it's great. I'm asking a separate question. Are you telling me that you would have been able to raise money for unrivaled with pro forma financial statements that showed annual operating losses? Yes, and for a extended period of time.

[John Skipper]

We have actually done better than that.

[David Sampson]

For an extended period of time. It wasn't part of.

[John Skipper]

We had a short business plan, not a long business plan. People bought into the vision. People bought into the vision.

[David Sampson]

It's an amazing thing. What he's not saying, which is that when you raise money, you have a cap table and you have a certain amount of money that you bring in. And then that money. There's sources and uses. The sources of the money is investors. The uses of the money is we're going to use it for. To fund operations. We're going to use it for capital investment by renting or building a stadium space or a studio. We're going to have this much in equity we're giving away. It's all got to be part of a financial.

[John Skipper]

You believe Bob Iger and Willow Bay bought a women's soccer team and at evaluation of a billion dollars based on a ROI of running that club and passing that along to their.

[David Sampson]

I actually believe Willow Bay responded to that and said that they bought it because it was in short commuting distance from her house.

[John Skipper]

That doesn't sound like a hard financial. Hard Financial calculation. It's my point.

[Pablo Torre]

And there know. Is that a joke? I don't even know.

[John Skipper]

And there. And there I believe you are dealing with enlightened owners who understand they're one, doing good, two, they can afford it and three, they're going to sell it for profit someday. Okay? And that's all they care about.

[Pablo Torre]

Are we going to frost Nixon each other anymore or are we back to hanging out?

[David Sampson]

There's nothing but love.

[Pablo Torre]

How much you sell marlins for?

[David Sampson]

They were sold at an enterprise valuation of $1.2 billion.

[Pablo Torre]

Nice.

[John Skipper]

Based upon revenues. Past revenues. Certainly not based on. So based on. Nothing to do with the brilliant job you did running the team. Yeah, no, it did have something to do. You won on borrow series.

[David Sampson]

No, no, it had to do with. It had to do with supply and demand.

[John Skipper]

Yes, exactly.

[David Sampson]

Which is why I wouldn't pay a banker to sell the team. Because anybody could have done what I did. I take no credit for selling the team for 1, 2. You've noticed publicly I've never taken credit for it. I laugh about it, but I don't say that I'm a genius banker. I say that we had an item that other people wanted. And when you have more than one buyer for something, the price tends to go up.

[Pablo Torre]

Which brings us back to the difference between WNBA negotiations before and the ones that are about to happen and they are happening. Well, excuse me, the ones that are actively happening privately and publicly. But I suppose near the end here, much like the business plan that John described, we are not here for a long time, but we are here for a good time. And so thank you both.

[John Skipper]

And none of us made any money.

[Pablo Torre]

Not with that attitude. Pablo Torre finds out is produced by Walter Abaroma Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez Sam Dawig Juan Galindo Patrick Kim neely Loman Rob McRae, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor and Chris Tuminello Our studio engineering by RG Systems Sound design by NGW Post theme song as always by John Bravo and we will talk to you next time.