The Sporting Class: How to Handle a Gambling Scandal

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode: The Sporting Class: How to Handle a Gambling Scandal

Date: October 28, 2025
Host: Pablo Torre (with guests David Samson and John Skipper)

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Overview

In this episode, Pablo Torre, joined by The Sporting Class regulars John Skipper (former ESPN president, media executive, and investor) and David Samson (former Miami Marlins president), dives into the labyrinthine world of sports gambling scandals. The discussion centers on recent high-profile legal actions against NBA figures, the shifting landscape caused by legalized betting, the psychology of money among athletes, and how teams and leagues should—or actually do—respond when gambling erupts as a crisis.

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Main Themes and Purpose

• The real-time dilemmas facing leagues, teams, and executives when a gambling scandal breaks.
• How legalized sports betting shapes detection, incentives, and risks.
• The psychology behind why wealthy athletes still court further risk—and sometimes disaster—through gambling.
• The intricate practical and ethical questions teams must answer in the immediate aftermath.
• Broader analogues in other leagues and lessons from past gambling-related infractions.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Kicking Things Off: What Happens When a Scandal Hits Home

[04:03]

• Pablo invites personal reflection: “What's it like when you're running a sports team and one of your players gets caught up in a gambling scandal? Raise your hand if that applies to you.”
• David Samson recounts reading the baseball anti-gambling rule to players annually, highlighting its post-Pete Rose strictness and its evolution for multi-language teams:

  "It's not a three sentence rule... it's a very long rule. And then what changed with the CBA? We had to do it in Spanish also... And I remember having Ichiro on the team and wondering, wait, do we have to do this in Japanese?" [05:29]

2. Dissecting “Operation Nothing But Bet" and "Operation Royal Flush”

[06:07 – 09:40]

• Pablo contextualizes the NBA’s recent scandals—naming and unpacking federal probes involving NBA players and coaches like Terry Rozier and Chauncey Billups.
• Samson and Skipper joke about over-the-top federal press conferences and code names:

  "It's an ironic name for a investigation into cheating, because if you have a royal flush, you don't need to cheat." – John Skipper [09:50]

3. Anatomy of a Scandal: An Executive's Real Experience

[11:29 – 15:23]

• Samson shares a personal case study: acquiring pitcher Jarred Cosart, only to find out after the trade about his gambling investigation, revealing how teams are often blindsided and left with limited recourse.

  “...You only get the call when... all the appeals are done and the punishment is ready... The first thing I did upon getting the call was I went right to Cosart... like, how can you do this, you are... endangering your entire career…” [12:15]

• They note the difficulty of policing player behavior in the age of social media, referencing the increased targeting from bettors.

  "Players see these tweets and these DMs. They really do. They pretend they don't, but they do. It's highly inappropriate." – David Samson [14:15]

4. How Legalized Betting Has Changed Everything

[16:08 – 19:12]

• The conversation shifts to how “unders” and prop bets are now legal, easier to access, and create new vulnerabilities:

  "What's different from now in 2015 is that now there is a marketplace established for things like Terry Rozier unders...a legal marketplace in many states, a legal market for hyper specific statistical underperformance." – Pablo Torre [16:34]

• Injury and lineup information becomes a hot commodity, with betting companies sometimes refunding bets for suspicious games.

5. Complex Incentives: Why Risk It for More Money?

[25:28 – 27:46]

• The group explores why players risk massive contracts for relatively small gains:

  "But you know that people with money like more money...people with money tend to do things to get more money even in smaller increments than you would imagine." – David Samson [25:28]

• Skipper shares anecdotes about athletes obsessing over freebies, regardless of their income level.

  "...I'm always amazed when I stand up in that crowd...they could not be more excited about trying to get an inexpensive, partly cotton T-shirt..." [26:48]

6. Vulnerability, Addiction, and Competition

[27:36 – 32:12]

• Michael Jordan’s famous quote is invoked:

  “I'm not addicted to gambling. I'm addicted to competition.” – Pablo Torre paraphrasing MJ [27:36]

• Discussion ensues over the line between healthy competition and destructive behavior, with mention of athletes going broke and the vulnerability that comes from gambling losses leading to leverage by unsavory bookmakers.

7. The Team/Lawyer Frontline: How Should Organizations Respond?

[32:22 – 36:09]

• Pablo walks through the NBA’s handling of Terry Rozier, who was flagged, then cleared to play, then suspended—contrasting the league's investigation with the ongoing federal probe.
• David Samson breaks down the practical and financial implications for the Miami Heat:

  "The way to settle it is by having Terry Rogier's contract voided. Right now. It should be noted he's getting paid every two weeks currently on his deal...But this is a critical moment for the Heat. Not for salary cap reasons...it's cash." [32:47 – 34:13]

• Skipper presses on the potential for contract recovery, but notes the high bar for termination, given the presumption of innocence and ongoing proceedings.

8. Big Picture: Should Prop Bets Be Banned?

[22:17 – 25:04]

• The hosts debate the calls to ban prop bets as a solution. John Skipper points out:

  "Proposition bets are dramatically more effective at making money... those are the bets on which they [bookmakers] make the most money." – John Skipper [23:22]

• Adam Silver's long-standing but conflicted stance on gambling is discussed, referencing his 2014 New York Times op-ed:

  "...He publishes an op ed in the New York Times titled legalize and regulate sports betting...No other commissioners were on that byline." – Pablo Torre [36:46]

9. Legalization as a Detection Tool

[23:02 – 23:57]

• All agree that while legalization brings risks, it also helps catch malfeasance:

  "I think this is an example where the likelihood is that it being legal made it more likely to be caught." – John Skipper [23:22]

10. NBA's “Clearing” vs. Federal Responsibility

[32:12 – 36:09]

• The NBA’s interests, the Heat’s interests, Terry Rozier’s legal situation, and federal criminal processes are shown to be simultaneous but not always aligned.

11. Broader Trends: Athlete Compensation and Union Battles (WNBA)

[42:23 – 48:48]

• Transition to the WNBA's ongoing CBA negotiations, player demands for a higher revenue share, and the trade-off between sustainability and fairness.

  "It's really nice for employees to want to get paid... but my interest in management is to make sure we've got a healthy business that can be sustained over a long period of time..." – David Samson [45:12]

• Skipper envisions a gradual move towards a revenue share model but cautions against overpromising in immature leagues.

12. Media, Narratives, and Ego in Sports

[48:48 – 53:16]

• The conversation wraps with a playful dissection of narrative manipulation, ego, and how trailers (and headlines) can mislead public perception—anchored by David Samson’s own experience as a "villain" in a Netflix documentary about the Montreal Expos.

  "You could afford renderings, but not a stadium." – John Skipper
  "That is true. I do not. I carry around a lot of stuff." – David Samson [51:10 – 51:20]

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Notable Quotes

• David Samson [25:28]: “You know that people with money like more money. I mean, that's been a very serious theme... people with money tend to do things to get more money even in smaller increments than you would imagine.”
• John Skipper [27:16]: "I'm always amazed...they could not be more excited about trying to get an inexpensive, partly cotton T-shirt."
• Pablo Torre [27:36]: "[Michael Jordan] has famously said, 'I'm not addicted to gambling. I'm addicted to competition.'"
• John Skipper [23:22]: "Proposition bets are dramatically more effective at making money... those are the bets on which they make the most money."
• David Samson [32:47]: "The way to settle it is by having Terry Rozier's contract voided. Right now. It should be noted he's getting paid every two weeks currently on his deal..."

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• [04:03] Pablo sets up the player/exec perspective on gambling scandals
• [06:07 – 09:40] "Operation Royal Flush"/"Nothing But Bet" context and code names
• [11:29 – 15:23] Samson describes a real-life gambling case with the Marlins
• [16:08 – 19:12] Impact of legal betting and prop bets on team operations
• [22:17 – 25:04] Should prop bets be banned? Legalization debate
• [25:28 – 27:46] Why rich athletes still gamble—psychological and anecdotal analysis
• [27:36 – 32:12] Competition vs. addiction; financial leverage from gambling
• [32:22 – 36:09] The Miami Heat, Rozier, legal limbo, and NBA/federal responsibilities
• [42:23 – 48:48] WNBA CBA battle and models for revenue sharing
• [48:48 – 53:16] Media narratives, ego, and perceptions of villainy (Samson and the Expos)

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Memorable Moments

• The opening beard banter and "Samsonian" obsession with hand sanitizer (light, signature Pablo Torre humor).
• Skipper and Samson on the coded language and politics of federal investigations into sports scandals.
• Pablo's thorough speed-run of the NBA indictment developments—turning true crime into a sports talk spectacle.
• Samson laying bare the stark, sometimes gallows-humorous reality of being a team executive when disaster hits.
• The spiraling riff about T-shirt cannons, “the thrill of the hunt,” and what it reveals about human (and athlete) nature.

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Tone and Style

The episode blends sharp journalistic inquiry with irreverent, self-aware humor and camaraderie. Pablo's intellectual inquisitiveness is matched by Samson's candor and Skipper's seasoned, grand media perspective. Anecdotal digressions and banter frequently undercut the darkness of the scandals being discussed—keeping the vibe agile, never dour, yet unafraid to probe systemic rot.

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Conclusion

If you want a brisk, deeply informed yet sharply funny dive into the new world of sports betting scandals—and what they reveal about money, power, and human nature—this episode is essential listening. The real-world war stories and big-picture insights from both the press and inside the executive suite make for an engrossing and illuminating hour.

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Produced by Meadowlark Media

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds out I am Pablo Torre. And today we're going to find out what this sound is.

[David Samson]

What kind of idiot would sign a deal that guarantees lack of profitability? You literally have to be out of.

[Pablo Torre]

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[David Samson]

You look the same.

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[David Samson]

You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.

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[John Skipper]

I'm thinking about making a prop bed on Rosier. What do you think?

[David Samson]

What the honor.

[John Skipper]

I've been out of touch. I've been out of touch.

[Pablo Torre]

There's a ton in here. I want to clarify that what John is alluding to is a thing that I am still investigating journalistically. And so we have another thing coming out, tbd. But I am so glad to have you both at this table. People have been asking, where is the sporting class? I mean, the answer is that none of us are blaming David for having a life that we explained in the last episode that Dave and I did together. And I encourage you to go and watch and like and subscribe and think and feel. What we should know is that if you're not watching on YouTube right now what John and I are sitting next to is one of the great beards in sports media.

[David Samson]

I still have not shaved since September 12th. And it is true that my daughter plays with it pretty much anytime I'm with her. She. I can't tell if she likes the color of it because there's some white in the chin, which is. She may not be accustomed to, or if she just likes the texture of it.

[John Skipper]

I don't know. I notice that most men who grow beards ultimately end up doing this a lot. Do you find that?

[David Samson]

I don't like touching my face because I know my fingers are greasy, so I don't want ever to do it. And. And I let her do it because I do. But I do make her sanitize first.

[John Skipper]

Oh, wow. That is. That is very Samsonian.

[David Samson]

It's critical to me. Listen, I will do a lot of things to help her, but I will not have greasy fingers. On, my God. Cut that out. That's.

[John Skipper]

We're gonna.

[Pablo Torre]

We're gonna have to keep it because in the movie of your life, which I think about every day as your friend, I sometimes forget to include the Samsonian features in which, as the soaring, tinkling piano music is building, David Samson is asking for the Purell.

[David Samson]

There's a whole machine now where she is.

[John Skipper]

I would say you wear it pretty well.

[David Samson]

Thank you.

[Pablo Torre]

It's a good look.

[David Samson]

Yeah, it's. It's fine. I'd rather not have it, but I'll keep it as long as I need to. About that.

[Pablo Torre]

It's. It's the perspective that applies to your beard. It's the perspective that applies to, I think, a lot of people who are running the NBA right now about certain characters. We'll keep this for as long as we need to. What do we got to do here? And I want to get into that, some of that, because there is a conversation, a big picture conversation, around the psychology of people with money and how they get embroiled in such things. There's the question of what it's like when you're running a sports team and one of your players gets caught up in a gambling scandal. And raise your hand if that applies to you at this table. Are you raising your hand to both volunteer and. And. And testify?

[David Samson]

No. It is true that gambling's always been a thing, even before it was legal. There's a rule in baseball that we had to read to the players, and we would have an assistant general manager do it because it would be his or her or their. But it was always his opportunity. To talk in front of the players. And you did it on the day before opening day every single year. You read start to finish. The rule prohibiting gambling and baseball is very clear. It's, this is post Pete Rose very clear. You cannot gamble on baseball. You can't gamble on anything, period.

[John Skipper]

So no other sport.

[David Samson]

No, you are not allowed. I never went into a sports and.

[John Skipper]

That pretty much solved the problem.

[David Samson]

It solved nothing. But we had to sit there and we would have to listen to the rule being read. It's not a three sentence rule, by the way. In baseball, the rule pering gambling, it's a very long rule. And then what changed with the cba? We had to do it in Spanish also. So it had to be read once in English, once in Spanish. And I remember having Ichiro on the team and wondering, wait, do we have to do this in Japanese?

[Pablo Torre]

Eight men out. Didn't have the scene with the, with the, with the subtitles.

[David Samson]

It's a real scene.

[Pablo Torre]

Bottom. Of course, of course. By the way, like to speak to the question of what are you allowed to do in the NBA and to very briefly speed run through some of this. We're talking about, I mean, the Department of Justice, the director of the FBI, the commissioner of the nypd, the Eastern District of New York, showing up last week at a press conference that has everything but the literal dogs and ponies. But there are the exhibits, there are the details. The two parallel indictments, one being Operation Royal Flush, the other being Operation Nothing but Net. Is that what they called it?

[David Samson]

Yeah. I just want to say one quick thing on that, John. The dog and pony people are talking a lot about that. And without making this too political, I will tell you that when you are in the prosecutor's office, it doesn't matter what the agenda is of the FBI or of Trump or of anybody. You don't want to lose a case, number one. You don't want to bring an indictment that will not win. So if this happened, which it did, because they were willing to. You heard what Patel said early on. He thanked, he thanked the prosecutors because guess what? Without the prosecutors, there's no press conference. It doesn't matter what Trump wanted. You cannot have the press conference and, and cash.

[Pablo Torre]

Patel, the director of the FBI, who Dave's referring to, this was inherited from the Biden administration. This is years in the making.

[David Samson]

But people made it so political. And to me it's really not. But everybody made it political.

[John Skipper]

I didn't see anybody make it political. I was happy to see the FBI is engaged in Trying to prosecute some people who aren't on the enemy's list. At least I don't think Rosier and Chauncey Billups were on the enemies list.

[David Samson]

They probably were.

[John Skipper]

They are now.

[David Samson]

They are now we.

[Pablo Torre]

We continue to.

[John Skipper]

They're eligible. I wonder, when will they be eligible for a pardon?

[David Samson]

He's making a McCarthy joke.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, no, no, no. But by the way, like, something that I can point out here is that.

[David Samson]

I think he got it.

[Pablo Torre]

What. What. What happens when you are being indicted, arrested by the FBI in one of these classic 6am not at the team hotel.

[David Samson]

I love that.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Rosier in Orlando. He's playing for the Miami Heat.

[David Samson]

They played the Magic the night before. They stayed overnight because they had a game two days later. So what you do is in baseball, you get the hell out of there and you'd be on the plane. In basketball, you spend the night in that city where you played. And so they found out where the team hotel was. Not that difficult. And they come in and they go to the front desk like It's a whole McGilla. And that's how they literally can go up to the front desk and get in the room.

[John Skipper]

Did Rosier play that in that game?

[David Samson]

He did not. They're saying.

[John Skipper]

Was that a coach's decision? Okay, FBI decision.

[Pablo Torre]

The question of what anybody knew and how you react to it is at the heart of this whole story, by the way. It's the thing that I continue to look into. But I say all of this to say that, yes, Chauncey Billup's hall of Fame inductee, head coach of the Portland Trailblazers, got arrested in Oregon. And he is somebody who's been accused of not only being a big central figure in Operation Royal Flush, in which there are sophisticated cheating technologies around private poker games, in which the athletes, the pro athletes like Chauncey Billups, were these whales to attract experts at poker who then didn't realize, oh, no, what I thought was an easy target ended up being something that I lost a lot of money to.

[David Samson]

Do you think these people saw rounders? I don't know if any of you saw Molly's game, but you write a.

[Pablo Torre]

Rich history of such dynamics.

[John Skipper]

It's an ironic name for a investigation into cheating, because if you have a royal flush, you don't need to cheat.

[David Samson]

Because you automatically win. Yeah, well, at least tie, but. So, yeah, we would spend a lot of time coming up with names of operations. When we were moving franchises around and selling and buying franchises, we had code names for everything. Our Code name. Well, whatever.

[Pablo Torre]

What's your. Hold on, what's your code name?

[John Skipper]

Was there one called code name Ruin the Montreal Expos.

[Pablo Torre]

Code name? I'm gonna be a villain in a documentary in 2025.

[David Samson]

Operation relocation. No, it wasn't called that.

[Pablo Torre]

What was it called?

[David Samson]

I. I don't remember.

[Pablo Torre]

That's not accurate, that is.

[David Samson]

They're all private, though.

[Pablo Torre]

Very good.

[David Samson]

So they.

[Pablo Torre]

So that's the whole point of a good code name until it's time to go public?

[David Samson]

No, but they did these names knowing they'd go public with it.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, this one, I should correct myself. It was, of course, Operation Nothing But Bet, which is the NBA inside information being leaked by allegedly Terry Roger aformentioned, as well as Damon Jones, who was this strange volunteer kind of assistant coach character with the Lakers, as well as co conspirator number eight, who is otherwise identified by his biographical information in that indictment as Chauncey Billups as well. Long wind up for me to say that we have at the desk, John, a pleasure of a case study in the fact that David Sampson, while president of the Marlins, had to deal with a player who was ensnared in a gambling scandal.

[David Samson]

So, well, Jared Kar.

[Pablo Torre]

You.

[David Samson]

I'm John. You. You watched him pitch many times, I'm sure.

[John Skipper]

I followed the career assiduously.

[David Samson]

First time he's heard that name is my guess. He's a guy we acquired and we got notified. We got a call from baseball. We were not aware of an investigation. We were not aware of any impropriety. And we got a call on a random day that ended with why that our pitcher was involved in illegal gambling in violation of the rule that prohibits that. And our question was simple, which is, what can we do? Is he going to be suspended?

[John Skipper]

And this was after you had acquired him?

[David Samson]

Yes, he was.

[Pablo Torre]

March20.

[John Skipper]

So you didn't get a heads up before?

[David Samson]

Zero.

[John Skipper]

But after you acquired him, they called and said, gee, by the way.

[David Samson]

And it was by the way, the investigation's done and the deal with the player and the union is done. And it's the same thing they do with steroids. You only get the call when. When it's done, all the appeals are done and the punishment is ready to be vetted. And we were told that Kard's only going to be fine, but that he was betting on sports, but they were going to announce that it was not baseball. The first thing I did upon getting the call was I went right to Kard and I. And I said to him, like, how can you do this, you are sacrificing and endangering your entire career where you have a chance to make millions of dollars because, God, your breaking ball is so good. And he was sheepish.

[Pablo Torre]

He was breaking your balls.

[David Samson]

He was. It was. It was crazy to me.

[Pablo Torre]

The story just to catch people up. Apparently this was a Twitter driven story. Do you remember the.

[David Samson]

This is the early days.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. We're talking 2015.

[David Samson]

So he ended up deleting his Twitter account, which is always a great. It's a great move. Right. The minute he started to get in trouble. I like when people do that. And so, yeah, he. Right. You can catch people easily.

[Pablo Torre]

He.

[David Samson]

What his claim was. And I can see players doing this. And I'm wondering what Terry will say. His claim was that he was not aware that it was an issue to do anything other than bet on baseball.

[Pablo Torre]

He had been apparently, allegedly, in direct message conversations with a gambling expert. And it was about. Someone was soliciting gambling advice. Allegedly.

[David Samson]

It happens to players all the time. So it's a little. It's a little subject that you guys don't talk about a lot, which is. And players are beginning to say things. Remember the recent player who was yelling. If you're betting a preseason game, you got a real problem. It was a player who got yelled at during a g. An NBA preseason game. And I'm reminded about the terrible things that are said to baseball players and basketball players and football players when people lose money as though they have the ability to.

[John Skipper]

Yeah.

[David Samson]

Get to these players. And the players see these tweets and these dms. They really do. They pretend they don't, but they do. It's highly inappropriate. So it was a big deal back then. Pablo. And remember, this is 10 years ago. And our concern was anyone else on the team doing this because we didn't want to be embroiled. And you mentioned the black socks that comes up in front offices. You don't want to be that. There's two things you don't want when you run a team. You don't want your team to die in a plane crash. And you don't want your team to be embroiled in a gambling scandal in some order, literally in that order. Plane crashes first.

[John Skipper]

And what was the. What happened with Kozar?

[David Samson]

He was fined and paid the fine, settled, and then went on to not have an illustrious career.

[John Skipper]

But there was no team discipline. You accepted the league.

[David Samson]

Part of it is. Is that we can't because the cba. Yeah. We don't have the right to discipline a Player. God, what I would have done to D. Gordon. Right. Of course I would like.

[Pablo Torre]

What did Gordon do to you?

[David Samson]

He got suspended for steroids after we gave him a guaranteed contract. And we'd like to. I would like to have punished him more for screwing up our years so badly, but we weren't allowed to.

[John Skipper]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So kosart, who was 24 at the time, was investigated after a screen grab of direct messages allegedly from him seemed to be looking for gambling advice and he deletes the account. Major League Baseball says, we've completed our investigation into his possible connection to sports related gambling. No evidence was found according to the commissioner's office and that co Start fully cooperated.

[David Samson]

No evidence was found that he bet on baseball.

[Pablo Torre]

Daddy bet on baseball.

[David Samson]

That's the big one. And that's similar. You saw what happened with Chauncey Billups. They immediately said oh, he did not do anything on the games that he was coaching. And it turns out that that's just a quick thing you do and say and leak out there immediately upon this nightmare happening to NBA. But that's not the biggest issue that Adam Silver has right now.

[Pablo Torre]

Right.

[David Samson]

At all.

[Pablo Torre]

Right. So. So the nightmare, just to be clear about operation Nothing but Bet is that this is. It's a function of the fact that there is a menu of legal options to make micro bets, prop bets on things like unders. I mean that's the through line here. Like where are we? What's different from now in 2015 is that now there is a marketplace established for things like Terry Rosier unders, a.

[David Samson]

Legal marketplace in many states, a legal.

[Pablo Torre]

Market for hyper specific statistical underperformance. And in the Chauncey Billups case, allegedly it was giving information that a star player was not going to play in a game. They were allegedly tanking for Victor Wembanyama in this season. This is 2023, the spring in March. And there again you're sort of betting, you're allowing allegedly inside information to go to people who want to bet on underperformance.

[David Samson]

It's why the injury report matters so much in the NFL because of gambling. There nothing. It's not about competition, it's about gambling. And they take it super seriously. If the difference between probable questionable, like those are serious differences when it comes to the line and to gambling. And I mean L, I, N E though I could mean L, Y N G. And so in baseball if you have information and there's been a starting pitcher announced and then that starting pitcher gets pulled right before the game and then you're doing a bullpen game, that would be good information to know. In basketball, if there's a player who's probable and then doesn't play or unlikely and then does play, those all would have line impacts. And that's so easy for people to take advantage of.

[John Skipper]

Right. Haven't there been some cases where the betting companies have refunded people's money even though there was no suggestion that it was inappropriate that the person was not played? But just to be on the safest side of right here, there have often been refunds, I think.

[David Samson]

I know, like with Draymond Green. Coco can probably help me on this. When Draymond Green played in the game, Klay Thompson's first game back, I believe he took the tip, the center court tip, and then immediately left the game. So it was a game played for him. But all of his unders hit and the thought was he was going to play. And I believe that everyone got refunded that day, but I think Coco would have that. But that's the one that comes to my mind.

[Pablo Torre]

The whole thing though, about injury or lineup information being policed. I mean, now there's a. The difference. What's it, what's the difference between now and 10 years ago? It's that 10 years ago if you wanted to bet on such specific things, you need to go to a bookie who had a strangely hyper specific assortment of options that you were interested in that was relevant to your inside information. Now it exists for pretty much everything.

[David Samson]

And there's no more parking lots.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, so the question of back in the day, everybody was aware why perhaps beat writers were very closely followed by your neighborhood bookie. Did you care about that? I mean, it was a different time.

[David Samson]

I would say we never thought of it. I can't say that when we were making changes to our lineup that we ever thought about the gambling side of it. In my career, I always knew it was there and I knew people who were betting, obviously.

[John Skipper]

But pretty hard to police your own team based on what people may be doing illegally.

[David Samson]

Yeah, it would not. I mean it would not. It would be like the CEO of, you know, the president of espn worrying or thinking about a lower level person who's engaged in insider trading and having that impact his life and what he does on a daily basis. I would assume you never gave it a thought. No.

[John Skipper]

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[Pablo Torre]

Well, part of the question now is what is reasonable responsibility now that the threat, the danger of such a thing is that much more incentivized. And all of us look, this is not a conversation about whether we should ban prop bets or not. That's not where I wanted to go with it, although that is an active, thriving conversation. My personal belief, as always, is that we should legalize and regulate and there are decisions to be made around what happens when you push stuff into black markets versus keep them regulated. It's worth noting that as usual here, the incentive from the gambling operators, from DraftKings, from FanDuel, in fairness to them, has been to want to catch this stuff and they did flag this stuff and alert the NBA. According to the reporting, it's becoming a.

[David Samson]

Very well known argument that the legalization and these sports Books, draftkings, etc, what they're doing is actually helpful to the leagues. That is the position that we are asked to take is the position that many of us actually feel, including myself. I, I didn't know whether you're talking about weed or about gambling when exactly giving your.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm consistent across both fields.

[John Skipper]

I think this is an example where the likelihood is that it being legal made it more likely to be caught. You have a second conflict which is the proposition. Bets are dramatically more effective at making money on gambling than many of the other traditional bets. So you do have a conflict. The leagues always say, well gee, we would really love for you to deemphasize prop bets, particularly these sort of very specific player. Are they going to play? Are they going to. But those are the bets on which they make the most money.

[David Samson]

Adam Silver must have had inside information because before the indictment was read on television in a live press conference days before that he had gone on a show to talk about prop betting and his desire to see prop betting adjusted if not made illegal in states where there's legalized gambling. And it turns out that he knew not when, but he certainly had an idea that there was some stuff going on and there were some allegations.

[John Skipper]

But he's been consistent about saying that.

[David Samson]

For years he's been on the wrong side.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, well this is the start, this.

[John Skipper]

Is well, but you got the conflict, Dave, you've been on the wrong side. They won't, I mean Adam has been consistent at saying sports betting gets people attuned to more of our games. They watch more closely, they spend more time. That's all positive. There's nothing wrong with any of that. But then without the prop bets that would be less the case. I mean the fact of the matter is your best restitution is still to catch these guys. And I would assume that some majority of the players have an IQ above two figures that will allow. I would assume that most of the players. Most two players.

[Pablo Torre]

No, no, I'm just saying multiple figures though.

[John Skipper]

Well, two figures is 99. That is slightly below average. And I'm just suggesting that at this point to bet, own something about your own performance when you are due on a guaranteed contract to make $26 million does fail the triple digit IQ test in this matter.

[David Samson]

Yeah, but you know that people with money like more money. I mean I, I, that's been a very serious theme that going on for the past two weeks is that hey, how could anyone do this when they're making so much money? Why would you give it up for a couple hundred grand. And I, I think I know the answer.

[John Skipper]

Well, I certainly believe and have the experience that people who make a lot of money care in some cases, many cases more than people who don't have money. About tipping the cab driver and.

[David Samson]

Well, you don't have to talk about tipping, but that, that's the thing. But I, I think it's a more global conversation, which is people with money tend to do things to get more money and they tend to want more money even in smaller increments than you would imagine.

[John Skipper]

My experience with that is true. When we did the espies and invited three to 500 athletes, a plurality of them through their agents mostly asked were we paying for their hotel, were we paying for their airfare and what was in the gift bag. It always amused me that they cared so much about the gift bag because there is nothing in it that you couldn't buy with a fraction of your weekly salary.

[David Samson]

It feels so much better to get stuff for free, though. It just better.

[Pablo Torre]

I used to say, when life is just a T shirt cannon throwing luxury.

[John Skipper]

Goods at you, I'm always amazed at standing up and, and I pay for my own NBA tickets often now, and they're not inexpensive, but partly because I'm buying them on the resale market. But I'm always amazed when I stand up in that crowd where I know Everybody is paid I $1,000 for a playoff ticket. And they could not be more excited about trying to get an inexpensive, yes, partly cotton T shirt. They're, they're for sale.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm, I'm into it.

[David Samson]

Are you the guy sitting down during the T shirt?

[John Skipper]

I am. And if one actually hit me in the chest, I would just find the closest kid and hand it to them. Why do you want a bad free T shirt?

[Pablo Torre]

The thrill of the hunt.

[David Samson]

It's, it's. I mean, you sound like a guy who's never been interested in the chase, and I know that to be wrong.

[John Skipper]

The chase?

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. Well, what Michael Jordan said. Speaking of which. Right. Michael Jordan has famously said, I'm not addicted to gambling. I'm addicted to competition. And so.

[John Skipper]

Well, that's. That's kind of a thing to say. It's like saying I'm addicted to being unhappy about. It's not an addiction.

[David Samson]

Wait, gambling is not addiction.

[John Skipper]

Competition. So it's a predilection, it's a compulsion, but it's not an addiction.

[Pablo Torre]

I think that in this conversation, though, there's a psychology that people cannot square the circle on because they look at the Publicly listed earnings for Terry Rogier and they say this guy made 160 million plus dollars in the NBA. That was his of course gross.

[David Samson]

His gross they never take.

[Pablo Torre]

Not a taxing for take home pay and taxes and all that and, and way less.

[John Skipper]

Chauncey Bill Well, I know because I pay my tax right as, as I.

[Pablo Torre]

Can concur personally in my own small way. Chauncey Bellups yes, pre all of these adjustments was 106 + million dollars career, not counting even his coaching salaries which are again yet more millions of dollars. The point being though that, I don't know, it just seems like one of the oldest stories in the book.

[David Samson]

Well, did you do a story about players going broke?

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, exactly.

[David Samson]

It's quite common, a super majority.

[John Skipper]

Often that's quite a different phenomenon because that probably has to do with just being foolish and spending over and over too much money. This is, seems like it would be a very binary thing. Gee, I might make what, 12,000, $16,000 on this bet which would potentially endanger my fourth year of 25, $26 million of guaranteed money.

[David Samson]

It sounds easy when you talk that way, but here's the problem. What happens if Terry had a gambling issue problem, which we have no idea. This is not, you know, irresponsible journalism. But here's what you think about as a league, which is what happens if he's betting on legal, if he's legally betting on other sports and he loses, which is what everyone does, generally loses. What happens if they can't pay or don't pay and then the gamblers go and say the bookies or the illegal guys say hey, I won't take your money, I'll take some info and I'll make money that way.

[Pablo Torre]

Vulnerability is not merely a psychological concern. It is also in this way a financial one. If you do love quote unquote, competition slash gambling.

[John Skipper]

Now by the way, I'm making a distinction between a gambling addiction and a competition addiction. I do believe a gambling addiction is a thing.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. Well listen, the, the question and the question of course, who has one is a clinical, a truly clinical diagnosis that we are not equipped to establish here. But I can tell you that one of the characters in this story who emerged in the episode we did in July of 2025 into Malik Beasley, who was the then Detroit Pistons guard, who was an incredibly prolific three point shooter, also a guy who according to our reporting was probed by the NBA because he made bets on other on at least one other sport. And the NBA basically looked into that and then what they claim now is that it was folded into the larger probe into all this other stuff. But the question of like, do NBA players specifically bet on other sports? Absolutely. Malik Beasley was one of those players, according to our reporting. And what do you do with that if you're the league? Well, it brings us back to the question of where the Miami Heat are in thinking about Terry Rozier. Because whatever Terry Rogier was known to have done, according to the investigation the NBA conducted, I can tell you this. Terry Rogier's attorney, a man named Jim Trusty, he says now top to finds out we watched the NBA investigate and clear Terry Rosier. The Miami Heat were allowed to keep Terry Roger on the court and play him in games in NBA basketball games. And that all happened, of course, the Heat acquiring Rosier after the data was assessed by the gambling operators that, hey, something a miss is happening with all of these, you know, suspicious patterns.

[David Samson]

There's investigation going on that the NBA allegedly knew about, side note. And allowed the Heat to continue to have him play. Continued. He stunk. But that's.

[Pablo Torre]

The federal government never cleared Terry Rozier. The Heat, the NBA, the Hornets, his previous employer, they were all told that the FBI, that the federal government was looking into this question. And so, yeah, if you're the Heat, I mean, you made a decision to go in on this guy to acquire him. And I just wonder what, David, you would do if you were running the Heat in the present.

[David Samson]

I would be calling my attorney to read over my franchisee agreement that I signed with baseball to see where in it did I agree not to sue Major League Baseball. Because I definitely agreed to it. When you sign a deal, and I would see whether there was an exception or some sort of loophole that I could find because I'm pretty pissed now, the Heat can settle this. And the way to settle it is by having Terry Rogier's contract voided. Right now. It should be noted he's getting paid every two weeks currently on his deal because the NBA like an hour and a half after the press conference, they basically said that Billups and Rosier are. They're off the team. They are on leave, which. On leave, which is like baseball's equivalent of the administrative list, which means you're being questioned and investigated about having done something bad. But we'll still pay you every two weeks.

[John Skipper]

Will that money be recovered if he is found to be guilty?

[David Samson]

No, you do not get brought back now future salaries after an adjudication, if you then terminate a contract than anything you're owed after that. Obviously you wouldn't have to pay. But this is a critical moment for the Heat. Not for salary cap reasons because their salary cap things that they'd only have a mid level exemption if Rosier's contract gets terminated. But it's. Screw all that. It's cash.

[John Skipper]

So they.

[David Samson]

Harrison could have $26 million more in cash.

[John Skipper]

So it's a CBA agreement that they cannot let him go and must pay his guaranteed contract because the criminal proceedings clearly will not be finished.

[Pablo Torre]

Nope.

[John Skipper]

Anytime soon.

[Pablo Torre]

These are all allegations I should make.

[David Samson]

Clear innocent before you can't terminate for cause based on a indictment.

[John Skipper]

That sounds reasonable.

[Pablo Torre]

Correct.

[David Samson]

But it feels terribly.

[John Skipper]

It does feel terrible. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. And here's some of the. The back and forth. Right. So March of 2023, Terry Ogier is flagged as this guy for whom suspicious unusual activity is coming in for the Saunders for a March 23 game that he exited early after nine minutes, according to the indictment.

[David Samson]

His Unders.

[Pablo Torre]

His Unders, exactly. He leaves with a supposed injury. Sportsbooks catch it. The NBA is informed Rozier doesn't play the rest of that season.

[David Samson]

Injury, we are told.

[Pablo Torre]

Meanwhile, in real life, in the real world, the federal government continues to investigate and that does not stop clearly. But the NBA, according to Terry Jer's attorney, is saying they cleared our guy, which is why he got back on the court, why he then got acquired by the Heat and why the opportunity costs of what the Heat decided to do is almost impossible to settle in a court of sport law or otherwise.

[David Samson]

They're not going to file a lawsuit against Adam. If I were Mickey, I'd want to, but they're not going to. But if, if I'm Adam Silver, I'm a little despondent today because I'm living with this and I've been pretty out front on the gambling thing and now my league is really the one that keeps getting caught. And he's going to have to do something about it. And I would assume that Billups and Rosiers, their careers are done, but he's going to have to do more than just a three word statement that came out the day it happened.

[Pablo Torre]

What Adam did, one of the first things he did, it was interesting. I was thinking back to 2014 and I'm reliving that year for a particular reason, not just because it's roughly a decade ago in the same time frame when David Sampson is monitoring, you know, these Twitter scandals involving his employees about gambling. Adam suffered us two things. Number one, he orchestrates the great fanfare, the sale of the Clippers from Donald Sterling to Steve Ballmer. The other thing that happens in November, the other second, you could argue, big thing that he does as the Commissioner of the NBA is on November 13, 2014, he publishes an op ed in the New York Times titled legalize and regulate sports Betting.

[David Samson]

No other commissioners were on that byline, if you recall. If you go back to that, I'm.

[Pablo Torre]

Looking at it right now.

[David Samson]

How many other commissioners was Goodell there? Manford Batman?

[Pablo Torre]

It was a single byline.

[David Samson]

One guy.

[John Skipper]

Well, and one of his points was legalized gambling would make it easier for us to catch. And that was borne out in this instance. I'm puzzled as to why the league cleared him in an investigation, according to.

[Pablo Torre]

The attorney of Terry Rogier. Yes.

[John Skipper]

By the way, who we must stop for a moment. Was his name really James Trustee?

[Pablo Torre]

His name is James Trustee. And his name gets us to another, I think important data point of how you do something in the year 2025 when there's a gambling or criminal scandal at your doorstep or which is ostensibly you might hire a Trump allied attorney. And Jim Trustee is of course, exactly that.

[John Skipper]

Wow. Could be nothing more ironic than a Trump attorney being named trustee.

[Pablo Torre]

He is.

[John Skipper]

He's trusty.

[Pablo Torre]

He is.

[John Skipper]

He's not trustworthy, but he's Trustee.

[David Samson]

Man, you are so biased.

[Pablo Torre]

He literally. All I'm saying is that he did. Really?

[John Skipper]

You think it's biased to disagree?

[David Samson]

I'm not saying that I'm pro Trump or anti Trump. I'm saying that you're so consistent, you won't even think about the underlying issue. You'll just automatically knee jerk, say something against somebody.

[John Skipper]

It's a good joke.

[Pablo Torre]

Trustee, the process. Jim Trustee was literally representing President Trump personally for about a year amid all of his various. You know, again, there's a lot there. Just Google it. You have to investigate it.

[David Samson]

The heat. You're giving up draft picks for this putz. I. It's. You're embarrassed by it. You want to save the money. Mickey Harrison's got to be calling. Can you get Adam on the phone right now? Has he gotten a call from Mickey?

[John Skipper]

Putz or putsty?

[David Samson]

That's Yiddish. I shouldn't say schmeckle in Yiddish.

[John Skipper]

I understand it's Yiddish.

[David Samson]

You do?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[David Samson]

You knew Putts was Yiddish?

[John Skipper]

Yeah.

[David Samson]

That's impressive.

[Pablo Torre]

I didn't know J.J. putts was Jewish. Remember J.J. putts?

[David Samson]

Of course.

[Pablo Torre]

J.J. putz is not Jewish.

[David Samson]

There's no way J.J. putz is Jewish.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, that's a Candidate for what I found out today.

[David Samson]

At this point, I would have no way to know. I've not had him as a player, so I've not seen him, you know, after games.

[John Skipper]

Hold on. Based upon this action, I would suggest that he is maybe a little Putsy.

[Pablo Torre]

Can I. Can I give you a website which is increasingly problematic in the modern day, but there's a website called Jew or not Jew.

[David Samson]

Come on.

[Pablo Torre]

But this is, I think, in the spirit of Airplane, you know, the pamphlet of. Of Jewish athletes, I believe. And J.J. putz, unfortunately, the verdict is not a Jew.

[David Samson]

Right? Did you. Wait? You thought I was lying to you?

[John Skipper]

I don't know that.

[David Samson]

We keep track of every single one of them.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm not sure I've seen the. I've seen the pamphlet in the movie.

[John Skipper]

But I'm not sure it's a verdict. I think it either is or is not. Verdict implies no, but that's how Pablo.

[David Samson]

Does it when he investigates journalistically.

[John Skipper]

Journalistically. Have they journalistically investigated his heritage, his ethnicity, and determine the verdict is not Jew.

[Pablo Torre]

So according to Rabbi Jason [e-mail], jJ Putz. Yeah. Is also not Jewish, even though he has a Yiddish last name, parentheses quote. Google it.

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[David Samson]

You look the same.

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But with this camera, everything looks better. Especially me.

[David Samson]

You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.

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[Pablo Torre]

As a matter of looking to the larger landscape of sports and business, check out this transition as we turn to the sport without putzes. Literally speaking, we turn to women's basketball. Wow.

[David Samson]

I've been waiting for this for a month now because we've got someone on the show who could give us such great information about what's going on with the wnba and I don't know that he will, but it bothers me that he won't.

[Pablo Torre]

This is attention on the sporting class is that David accuses John of knowing more than he can share. John being a position of authority and financial investment in a certain three on three women's basketball league that is essential to the understanding of women's basketball and the economic landscape I've described has great insight and yet also a conflict that we just disclosed very helpfully for everybody.

[John Skipper]

To understand the so I am an investor and a media advisor to unraveled and given that if I did know anything that was not public and I'm not suggesting I do, I would there would be areas in which it would be inappropriate for me to disclose anything I might have learned as an advisor, a confidential advisor. That would be and you would not argue that that would be inappropriate for me to disclose?

[David Samson]

I wouldn't argue it. But you're in the media now. We're doing a show and I think that I want to let the audience know from my standpoint that I'm fascinated by what's going on with the WNBA and their collective bargaining negotiation and how you are John Skipper involved in it in a way. As president of espn. You were not in my humble opinion, but much more so with unrivaled because they are a big part of what's happening in the wnba.

[John Skipper]

Just to be clear, I have no involvement in the current CBA negotiation going on and I have been public about some of my thoughts about that and I may have thoughts about that that can be expressed on this show.

[David Samson]

What a contortionist.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, let's, Let me, let me, let me help you guys out. Let me help you guys out with the framework here because I, I think there's an actual bit of news we can use here because the WNBA is embroiled in this really public knockdown, drag out war of words over how this was to pay their players. And Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe were on this show not so long ago talking about their perspectives on it. Your perspectives, though, as people who were truly at the bargaining table from the other side, from the management side, how would you steer them? How would you advise them if the goal was a resolution?

[David Samson]

Well, I don't know if that's the goal, but the goal is sustainability. From an ownership side, from a management side. It's really nice for employees to want to get paid a whole lot of money and a high percentage of revenue, but my interest in management is to make sure we've got a healthy business that can be sustained over a long period of time and that can be profitable. And I'm not going to sign up a deal. What kind of idiot would sign a deal that guarantees lack of profitability? You literally have to be out of your mind. And what the women want in the WNBA is for the WNBA to do a deal that would guarantee no profitability. They're not going to do it. And I would call the bluff of all of these negotiators, all of the women who were talking about we want the same percentage of revenue as the NBA players get. They have zero chance. Pablo and John, you know this and you won't respond. There is zero chance that the women in the WNBA are going to get the same percentage of revenue, quote, unquote, that the NBA players get.

[John Skipper]

I have previously suggested and still agree, and it doesn't violate anything. I should recuse myself on that. While they're not going to get that percentage immediately, that if I were sitting at the bargaining table, I would suggest that we're going to move over time to a model in which you do get paid a percentage of the revenues.

[David Samson]

They do get paid a percentage. Now it's just 9%. Well, so they're not arguing whether they get paid a percentage of revenues.

[John Skipper]

The argument is, well, that's just a derived number. It's not a Nobody is required to pay 9% of their revenues. It's a derived number.

[David Samson]

And so is their media revenue.

[John Skipper]

Well, I understand that. I'm just suggesting that the players, if you want to get to a deal, and I would Disagree with you. I think they do want to get to a deal. Of course they would like that deal to allow their owners to be as profitable as they can be. Some of them will be profitable sooner rather than later. And I have suggested that the owners would be wise to understand that they're going to make the vast majority of money they make on flipping the team and not on annual. On annual. You're taking your head like a non owner.

[David Samson]

That's the argument everyone makes. You'll make the money back when you sell the team. Where do you come up with the money to pay for the annual losses?

[John Skipper]

And how did you do so when you were losing money at the raise and eventually sold the team for. So, Marlins. I'm sorry? Marlins. So much money that it covered all the losses plus a gigantic profit. Is that not accurate?

[David Samson]

A ton of borrowing. A ton of. A ton of raising money on the capital markets to pay for the annual losses. And then there was a payback of all debt upon the flip of the day.

[John Skipper]

And nobody ever discussed, well, yes, this seems crazy under our certain. Our current operating situation, but we'll make it back when we sell a team.

[David Samson]

Because there. There was no. You have to have a financial plan. Our owner did not have a plan to sell the team in 2017. It happened because of an unfortunate series of events.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, this does remind me that there was this. What was it? Oh, I think it's a Netflix.

[David Samson]

Do we have that?

[Pablo Torre]

Do we have that trailer? Do you have that trailer? In which you may notice a familiar face who might be held to account on this very specific question.

[David Samson]

Oh, come on.

[Pablo Torre]

In the French.

[David Samson]

Let me tell you about that guy.

[Pablo Torre]

I gotta translate that. Can you show that? Put it on. Put it back on. And so I can speak over the French because I want people to appreciate the Francophilia of all of this. David Sampson was one of a kind. He carried a mirror everywhere he went so he could see himself.

[John Skipper]

I don't believe that's accurate.

[Pablo Torre]

David.

[John Skipper]

Maybe he just means it metaphorically.

[David Samson]

Well, I. That's assuming that he can speak in metaphors. That is an example of this plays a putt. He's not even that.

[John Skipper]

And he's the putts.

[Pablo Torre]

Who was that, David?

[David Samson]

A guy named Roger Brulot. He was a broadcaster who was a bitter, bitter man. And I feel for him, looking back. I feel for him because the Expos were his life and that was it. And he's still trading on that to this day. And I'm sorry for that. We all trade on our past and try to create new things for our future and present. But what he was trying to say is that I am so egomaniacal that all I cared about was how I looked, and he missed the point. I would have preferred him to say all he did was carry around $100 bills. Like that sort of comment, meaning that all I cared about was money, et cetera. I would have had less issue with that than him saying that this was some sort of ego play about looks.

[Pablo Torre]

You know, I think it's often the case, John, that David is accused of only speaking the language of money. But what I am told is that that is not literally true, as this next clip might indicate.

[David Samson]

The proget de nouveau star des expo et consoo specialement pour le baseball et pour les monore et Quebecois.

[John Skipper]

Wow. That's pretty good.

[Pablo Torre]

That's pretty good.

[David Samson]

The first interview I ever did was in French. The first time I ever had an IFB in my ear was December 9, 1999. I did an interview in French, and it was weird. Yeah, you got to speak French on the Expos.

[Pablo Torre]

In that clip. You were at the. The press conference table, and there was a model of what?

[David Samson]

Well, we were trying to let people know that we were going to build a new ballpark, but we had no money for it. All we had were. We. We had renderings that we had done by. By a bunch of people.

[John Skipper]

You could afford renderings, but not a stadium. You have.

[David Samson]

No, this was not exact. This was like renderings from a box.

[John Skipper]

I. I can suggest that. I know for certain David does not carry a mirror around.

[David Samson]

I do not. I carry around a lot of stuff.

[John Skipper]

That's a misunderstand.

[David Samson]

But I do focus on whether I have food in my teeth after I eat. That is true. I do do that.

[John Skipper]

I don't think that's peculiar.

[David Samson]

No, I. Well, there's plenty of people watching.

[John Skipper]

Focus on whether it's germs to consider. But, you know, I'm a. I'm a.

[David Samson]

It's an interesting movie, which I'm sure you'll never watch on Netflix, because they tried to say who would kill the exposure and whether or not who killed. Literally, the name of the movie. It's called who Killed the Montreal Expos. And it. It goes through different suspects, and I'm a suspect. But of course, I didn't kill the franchise. Of course, no individual killed the franchise. It was, again, a series of moments that killed the franchise. But I coped to it. In the movie, which you only saw the trailer. I'm sure you didn't see the movie, but not yet. No. You're busy investigating journalistically.

[John Skipper]

So has the movie premiered yet?

[David Samson]

Yes, October 21st. So a couple weeks ago. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And so your review as somebody who in the trailer for those who care to see that was presented. You were presented as the murderer.

[David Samson]

Yes. Yeah. The trailer is not cut by the director. The trailer's cup by Netflix. Just a little side note and that so the trailer had some very incorrect things. It miss it misled you to believe Felipe Alou was impugning Jeffrey Laurie's baseball knowledge when in the movie you realize he was talking about Club Brochu, the owner before Jeffrey Lauria. But when you make a trailer, you can make it look however you want, but you got to watch the movie.

[Pablo Torre]

So in other words, youth, we're innocent.

[John Skipper]

I believe there's a word you do know journalistically. The reporter does not make the headline.

[David Samson]

That is true.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right.

[John Skipper]

Which. So if you're mad about a headline and you read the story and go, gee, this doesn't sound like what the headline says. You have an over eager editor somewhere who's trying to get more clicks on something or get more eyeballs to read the story.

[David Samson]

I must piss you off.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, listen, I would love the plausible deniability of blaming the people on the other side of the glass for the words that they choose on the YouTube thumbnails. I don't know what this thumbnail is going to say. I think it should also perhaps consider the fact that what David is asking all of us to consider him as at the end here is trusty. You're a very trusty source.

[John Skipper]

And not Putsy at all.

[David Samson]

I. I think that was your out. Congrats.

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome. This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production and I'll talk to you next time.

[Verizon Spokesperson]

Dude, did you order the new iPhone 17 Pro? Got it from Verizon, the best 5G network in America. I never look so good.

[David Samson]

You look the same.

[Verizon Spokesperson]

But with this camera, everything looks better. Especially me.

[David Samson]

You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.

[Verizon Advertiser]

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[Rubrik Advertiser]

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[Pablo Torre]

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