Podcast Summary: "The Sporting Class: The Trade That Kept Inside the NBA Alive"

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out (Le Batard & Friends)
Host: Pablo Torre
Date: December 6, 2024
Guests: David Samson (ex-MLB exec), John Skipper (former ESPN president)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Pablo Torre, joined by David Samson and John Skipper, unpacks the unprecedented rights "trade" that allows acclaimed NBA studio show "Inside the NBA" to live on—now on ESPN/ABC instead of TNT. The conversation goes beyond sports, delving into how media conglomerates make audacious swaps of assets, talent, and intellectual property, with entertaining detours into art, business analogies, and the inner machinations of sports broadcasting rights. The episode also dissects the wider implications of these trades for viewers, corporations, and the business of sport.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trading "Inside the NBA": How ESPN Got TNT’s Crown Jewel

• [06:41 – 12:24]
  • The deal ensured "Inside the NBA"—with its beloved cast (Barkley, Smith, Shaq, Ernie)—survived by moving it to ESPN/ABC, though only for marquee NBA events.
  • The trade wasn’t simply cash; it was a three-way exchange (Turner, ESPN, NBA): Turner licensed "Inside the NBA" to ESPN and received the rights to air Big 12 games and other assets in return.
  • David Samson: “What we learned is that while sports rights are growing and the NBA cashed in, it is more valuable to the new partner than it was to the old partner retaining the rights.” [07:54]
  • The original Turner/NBA lawsuit was always meant for settlement, not court victory—used as a bargaining chip for better terms.

2. The Art of the Off-Field Trade: Swapping Assets Beyond Money

• [10:18 – 16:14]
  • Modern sports/media deals increasingly echo Monopoly: it’s about asset swaps, not just cash.
  • David Samson: “You can actually swap assets where you look at what you own, you look at what someone else owns and it's a little bit like Monopoly…” [10:18]
  • The show draws direct analogies between sports trading players and corporations trading shows or intellectual property, emphasizing creative problem-solving.

3. Anatomy of a Broadcasting Trade: Al Michaels for Oswald the Rabbit

• [17:10 – 24:13]
  • John Skipper recounts how he "traded" legendary play-by-play announcer Al Michaels to NBC—for Oswald the Rabbit (Walt Disney's pre-Mickey Mouse character), among other broadcast assets.
  • John Skipper: “They agreed to turn over the copyright of Oswald the Rabbit in exchange for being able to negotiate with Al Michaels for appearing on Sunday Night Football.” [20:09]
  • The episode draws out how non-cash trades can have cultural significance (Oswald returning to Disney) and business value (broadcast rights, talent realignment).
  • Memorable moment: Pablo marvels: “The domino effect of Oswald the Rabbit gets us to all of these… I mean, by the way, the full trade…” [22:34]

4. Negotiation Tactics: Going "Naked" and Creative Problem-Solving

• [26:14 – 28:32]
  • David Samson details a time he had to reveal his hand and overpay for a coach because of owner pressure, trading a promising pitcher ("We are going to overpay in a way that is going to be idiotic and you're going to look like a genius.") [26:43]
  • The point: In complex business/sports negotiations, honesty and creativity often trump stubbornness, especially when each side values assets differently.
  • Creative non-cash deals often work better because it’s easier for both sides to feel like they’ve won when comparing very different kinds of assets.

5. Company Politics: Budget Silos, Internal Trades & Stephen A. Smith

• [30:13 – 33:38]
  • Discussion on internal "barter": how large conglomerates “trade” costs internally to justify huge salaries/talent, with Disney/ESPN and Stephen A. Smith as examples.
  • The hosts riff on how departments within companies try to shift costs: "You have to split up a budgetary item under an umbrella of a company… People run their own P and L within the bigger company." [31:54]
  • John Skipper: “ESPN’s going to pay for this salary would be my guess. And then what they’re doing is trying to convince him that staying with ESPN gives him access to the rest of the Walt Disney Company for some of the other things he would like to work on.” [33:38]

6. Fairness, TV, and the New College Football Playoff

• [38:17 – 48:48]
  • Skipper and Samson debate college football playoff expansion, “TV influence,” and whether the system is designed for fairness—or to maximize ratings and revenue.
  • John Skipper: “There is no fair or right. It’s an entertainment on television designed to attract a large audience … So forget fairness. It’s not about fairness.” [48:06]
  • Samson pushes the idea that TV networks (ESPN, in particular) have outsized, sometimes unspoken influence on which schools benefit in the college football playoff and Sunday Night Baseball scheduling.
  • Skipper pushes back but admits "You want Notre Dame, Texas, Michigan, Alabama ... There is, there was no attempt at this point in the year to convince the committee that we figure out a way to put Alabama instead of Miami... But they do rely upon this sort of pretense that all of this is mathematical..." [41:30]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the "Inside the NBA" deal:
  • “The only group that didn't do any trades actually was NBA and ESPN. So Turner was the centerpiece of two trades separately.” — Pablo Torre [08:49]
• Negotiating Assets:
  • "You have to look at what the other side has in their entire quiver…because you don't know if you value something differently than they do. And that's where true value can be extracted on both sides." – David Samson [28:02]
• John Skipper on Talent:
  • “The benefit you do get as the person on the other side of the table is you don't ruin your relationship. … The agent is a go-between to carry messages back and forth.” [34:00]
• David Samson on Agents:
  • "If you have a talent who doesn't have an agent, it's fantastic because you have them sign a one-way contract where all the benefits keep going." [35:19]
• On College Football Playoff and Fairness:
  • “At the end of the day, there's a group of people who are sort of deciding and there's some hard calls to make ... but I can guarantee you they're not calling up ESPN and going, you know, it's really close. You want Miami or you want Alabama?” — John Skipper [42:19]
  • “There is no fair or right. It's an entertainment on television designed to attract a large audience... Forget fairness.” — John Skipper [48:06]
  • “It's just business.” — David Samson [48:49]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening; discussion of art, jackets, and surrealism: [00:00 – 06:41]
• Dissecting the NBA/Inside the NBA trade: [06:41 – 16:14]
• Al Michaels for Oswald the Rabbit (Broadcasting trades): [17:10 – 24:13]
• Baseball precedent for non-traditional trades: [25:29 – 28:32]
• Internal company trades; Stephen A. Smith—Disney: [30:13 – 33:38]
• Negotiating with agents vs. talent: [34:00 – 36:38]
• College football playoff and TV influence debate: [38:17 – 48:48]

Tone & Style

The dialogue is conversational, witty, and occasionally self-deprecating, with hosts and guests flexing deep industry knowledge and poking fun at each other. The episode moves seamlessly between humorous anecdotes about wardrobe and art, and serious analysis of the business and politics shaping modern sports media.

Best For

This episode is a must-listen (or read) for anyone fascinated by the intersection of sports, big business, media rights, and the creative deal-making that happens off-field but shapes the games and shows we watch.