The Sporting Class: We're Gonna Need a Bigger Bracket

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out
Episode: The Sporting Class: We're Gonna Need a Bigger Bracket
Date: March 21, 2025
Host: Pablo Torre
Guests: John Skipper (former ESPN President), David Samson (sports executive/commentator)

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Overview

This episode of The Sporting Class dives into the business, history, and politics of March Madness, exploring the decisions behind bracket sizes, broadcast rights, and the evolution of both the men’s and women’s NCAA basketball tournaments. Pablo Torre, John Skipper, and David Samson discuss the internal machinations of TV deals, the future of college sports, and what makes the tournament special—or lucrative. The conversation weaves in sports broadcasting history, economic incentives, and the philosophical splits over what college athletics should represent.

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Key Discussion Points

Opening Banter & The White Lotus Comparison (00:35–06:44)

• Playful Food Debate: David and John bicker over John’s snack habits, leading to an extended riff on cleanliness and popcorn bags—establishing the episode’s lively, conversational tone.
• White Lotus Voice Doppelganger: Listeners point out John Skipper’s voice resembles that of a character from The White Lotus.
  • Skipper jokes, “I don’t hear myself speak…so it’s hard for me to understand if that guy sounds like me.” (03:13)
• Discussion drifts into TV acting, prosthetics, and the weirdness of managing showbiz controversy.

March Madness: Business, Brackets, and Broadcast Rights (07:03–25:29)

• Cultural and Economic Dominance of the Tournament:
  • Pablo calls it “the greatest postseason production in televised sports.” (07:07)
  • Comparison to NFL Playoffs, World Cup, and the unique “single elimination cultural rivalries executed by teenagers.”
• ESPN’s Push for the Tournament:
  • Skipper recounts ESPN’s aggressive bid to acquire NCAA tournament rights, propose expansion to 96 teams, and televise every game.
    • “We thought we had an extraordinarily compelling proposition. We will expand the tournament. We will pay you more money. We will put every game on.” (08:03)
  • CBS’s loyalty and partnership with Turner (creating the now-standard broadcasting format) was, in Skipper's view, a defensive move sparked by ESPN’s bid.
• Broadcasting Deals and Channel Strategy:
  • Discussion about how networks use multiple cable channels (TrueTV, TBS, etc.) to maximize game exposure and increase carriage fees.
  • ESPN had the infrastructure to offer a better product but was ultimately outmaneuvered by network partnerships and political inertia in college sports governance.
• Why Not Expand the Bracket?:
  • Skipper: “The NCAA always does…something dumb, which is, ‘Let’s go to 68 [teams].’ It’s like, why would that be the response to let’s go from 64 to 96?” (11:24)
• The NCAA’s Power and Motivations:
  • Loyalty versus money, and the ever-present fear of ESPN having “too much.”
  • David Samson jibes Skipper’s tendency to see himself as too competent for rejection, teasing the politics behind NCAA decisions.

Men’s vs. Women’s Tournaments and Media Value (17:36–23:35)

• Evolution of the Women’s Tournament:
  • ESPN has long carried it as part of a larger rights package (“the pot”), but now, growing stars and parity have fueled a surge in interest.
    • “The women’s tournament is spectacular…It’s become better because the level of competition is so much better.” (18:08 – John Skipper)
    • Caitlin Clark phenomenon and transcendent women’s stars are lifting the product (19:14).
  • The women’s rights deal is $65M/year vs $1.1B/year for men’s, but the gap continues to shrink as interest grows.
  • Samson emphasizes the “pot” of bundled NCAA sports and the network’s need for bulk programming.
• Media Bundling and Future Negotiations:
  • NCAA is now aligning men’s and women’s rights, potentially setting up future bundled mega-negotiations—mirroring NBA/WNBA media strategy (25:00).

The NCAA’s Future—and Bracket Expansion (25:29–39:48)

• What Happens After 2032?
  • Skipper predicts that in the next TV rights cycle, it may not be the NCAA running March Madness negotiations:
    • “Will the NCAA be selling it in the next round? […] Why wouldn’t you create four super conferences, 64 teams…and we’ll sell that for a billion and a half dollars?” (25:29, 27:49)
  • Discussion on whether the tournament remains an “everybody’s in” event or becomes another exclusive, money-driven playoff for elite conferences.
  • Skipper envisions a possible “Animal Farm” scenario—haves consolidating, leaving less for traditional Cinderella stories.
• Cinderella Stories and Economic Realities:
  • Samson queries,“You want a Cinderella to get in. St. Francis is in the lowest rated…” (29:10)
  • Skipper counters with the economic incentives to cut out small schools and maximize the payday for big institutions.
  • Pablo: “...the whole magic...is because, in fact, it is the underdog capacity.” (30:42)
  • Samson: “You know how much money there is in the two words ‘upset alert?’” (31:13)
• Bracket Size—Personal vs. Institutional Preferences:
  • Skipper wanted 96 teams but predicts contraction if super-conferences take control.
  • Personal distinction: “You’re confusing my personal—what I want—from what I think will happen because of the influence of money in the game.” (37:52)
• Players and NIL (Name, Image, Likeness):
  • Suggests that half the money should go to players to create a rational wage structure and stabilize roster chaos.
    • “Wouldn’t it be better if you took that money...and actually set a wage scale and said here’s what players are going to get paid?” (39:10)
  • Samson is surprised: “I assumed...he would be a huge fan of the portal, of a person’s inalienable right to maximize their profit as a worker...” (39:48)
  • Skipper self-describes as a “socialist capitalist.” (40:14)

Closing Topics: International Baseball & Unrivaled (40:25–47:10)

• MLB Opening Day in Japan:
  • Samson dispels criticism about odd start times and diluted “opening day magic.”
    • “The fact is these games were not for the US…MLB printed money. The Dodgers won two games against the Cubs.” (41:27)
  • Skipper sees international expansion as a smart business move, referencing his own miserable, snowy Cubs opener as a counterpoint.
• Women's Three-on-Three League—Unrivaled:
  • Skipper (with a small ownership stake) lauds the opening season and impressive ratings.
    • “364,000 people watched this team without Angel Reese win the title on TNT and TruTV…that’s just an impressive number for year one of a new thing.” (46:35–46:51)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We thought we had an extraordinarily compelling proposition. We will expand the tournament. We will pay you more money. We will put every game on.”
  — John Skipper (08:03)

• “…they were quite loyal to CBS and CBS had done a great job, got no problem with that. I usually found that money trump loyalty.”
  — John Skipper (09:38)

• “The market spoke, and it’s just not close.”
  — David Samson on the women’s vs. men’s tournament TV value (21:17)

• “Will the NCAA be selling it in the next round? And why would they be?”
  — John Skipper (25:49)

• “Why wouldn’t you create four super conferences, 64 teams, and that’s your governing body?”
  — John Skipper speculating about a post-NCAA future (27:49)

• “You know how much money there is in the two words, upset alert?”
  — David Samson (31:13)

• “...the whole magic...is because, in fact, it is the underdog capacity.”
  — Pablo Torre (30:42)

• “Wouldn’t it be better if you took that money...and actually set a wage scale and said here’s what players are going to get paid?”
  — John Skipper (39:10)

• “I’m a socialist capitalist.”
  — John Skipper (40:14)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:35–06:44 – Opening banter & White Lotus talk (voice/TV culture)
• 07:03–25:29 – Deep dive on March Madness broadcast rights, ESPN's failed bid, bracket size debates
• 17:36–23:35 – Men’s vs. Women’s tournaments: value, TV deals, star power (Caitlin Clark effect)
• 25:29–37:52 – The business future: NCAA’s role, four-superconference scenario, Cinderella stories
• 39:10–40:14 – Player compensation, NIL, “socialist capitalist” philosophy
• 40:25–44:51 – Baseball in Japan, opening day traditions, international growth
• 45:02–47:10 – Discussion of Unrivaled (women’s 3-on-3 league) and closing banter

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Structure and Tone

The episode is raucous, witty, and rambling—characterized by the camaraderie and good-natured bickering of industry insiders. Pablo keeps the discussion moving but lets his guests indulge in signature rants and tangents that bring sports media history to life. The show consistently toggles between nostalgia, business calculation, and anxious speculation about college sports' future.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds Out I am Pablo Torre. Today's episode is brought to you by DraftKings. DraftKings. The Crown is yours. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[B]

Oh, I want to Cinderella again. It's so great when St. Francis gets.

[A]

In right after this ad. You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network.

[C]

Women's side of things as well.

[A]

Are you done shoving food into your mouth? Are you good?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

I. Somehow it. It is just. It's not the word I would use for Mr. Samson's eating style. Shoving food in his mouth.

[A]

He reacted. Candy into a popcorn bag.

[C]

Well, I don't like sticking my fingers in the candy bag and then in my mouth and then back in my own candy bag. So I take out with clean hands candy, put it in a separate container. There were no paper cups here. All that was available was a paper popcorn.

[B]

Wait, so wait, what are you concerned about with your own fingers going back into a bag?

[C]

Are we really okay? My fingers are just as dirty as your fingers.

[B]

Well, I certainly do not transfer. It never would occur to me. I have a problem.

[C]

It's the difference between you and I. It just occurs to me, one of the differences.

[A]

Just one of them.

[B]

It's one. And the differences make for a excellent relationship.

[C]

Excellent.

[A]

Not to point. Not to point this dirty finger at one of us in the room today.

[B]

Just don't touch me with it.

[A]

Well, John, it's going your direction because we've get. We've been getting some viewer mail and people have noticed that your voice is all over one of the great television shows that's on right now. Are you watching the White Lotus?

[B]

I have been pressed into watching the White Lotus. We watched it this weekend.

[A]

Are you aware.

[C]

Are you a body double by chance?

[B]

Well, are you suggesting that I look like that guy Timothy Ratcliffe or Ratliff, I think they're using in the suggestion or that I sound like him or he sounds like me. I love, by the way, I suspect I'm older. So you are older, so that mofo would sound like me, not vice versa.

[A]

Well, just for the record here, Timothy Ratliff is in fact the character's name. Jason Isaacs. Jason Isaac is the actor. And that mofo, in any event, sounds like this.

[B]

My grandfather was the governor of North Carolina. My father was a very, very, very successful businessman. Thank God he's dead. Oh, both my parents. Thank God they are dead. Cute. Well, since I don't hear myself speak, which is true, I know it's hard to believe. But I don't actually understand how I sound. So it's hard for me to understand if that guy sounds like me.

[C]

Well, you have a draw.

[B]

Oh, no, no. You know that I have a draw.

[A]

But that's specifically a North Carolina. I mean, that's what he's going for is the point.

[B]

Oh, it's very specific to very close to where I grew up. I mean, they are from Durham, North Carolina, about 70 miles north east of where I grew up. And of course, I find the most interesting thing about the show is, of course, who's the greatest douchebag in the show? The Duke guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In fact, the two. In fact, the father is a Duke guy and the.

[C]

And Arnold's son.

[B]

Older son is a Duke guy. The mother is a Carolina graduate. And by the way, I would judge her accent. Parker Posey's accent is spectacular. And it really does sound exactly like somebody I know. So every time I hear her speak, she's got it. She's also got that mouth curled downward. She's got that thing about, well, they're not decent. They're not decent. So they do a pretty good job with it. And they got the. I don't quite understand why they expect the rest of the world to care about the rivalry between North Carolina and Duke, but it's a. It's like a little Easter egg for me.

[C]

And they had a big problem this week. Jason had.

[A]

Spoiler alert.

[C]

No, it's. It's in the news. He got into some trouble. The actor who plays a real life story. Real life story where he almost got canceled when he was talking about the size of his penis and he didn't want to answer any questions about it and whether it was real or not. That's why I asked whether you were a body double, but you didn't get the joke.

[B]

Oh, you're right.

[C]

I did not respond. Whatever. Thanks for keeping the show going.

[A]

Well, just to. To talk about how sausage gets made. I guess it was a fake penis.

[C]

They're all. They're all that. And so that was the conversation that was had, which was, is that, you know, Margaret Qualley, when she does prosthetics for substance, does that get criticized more? When Mikey Madison does not, does that get criticized less? Are they forced do.

[A]

He was defending his right to a prosthetic piece.

[C]

He was. He was trying not to talk about it, and he quit. He made a quip where he mentioned the names of the actresses Margaret Qualley and Mikey Madison. He got in trouble and then had to release a statement While Mike White was quivering with fear of this could impact the. His. His baby. So there was an immediate statement, a completely crafted statement by. I love a statement. And he backtracked it. And then he threw one out there for all the women out there saying, you have it way harder than I do.

[A]

Except.

[B]

Well, you're not trying to make a pun there, are you?

[C]

No.

[B]

I would hope that for his sake, if he was embarrassed potentially by the suggestion that his.

[C]

He wanted his acting to talk, not the size of his prosthetic.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Margaret, by the way, you make her friend.

[C]

Did I say Maggie?

[A]

You said Marg.

[C]

Marguerite.

[A]

You said like Margot or something.

[C]

I may have said Margot.

[A]

Your accent is also confusing to me.

[C]

It's sort of a Wisconsin accent with a hint of New York.

[B]

With notes of vanilla and oak and gravel.

[C]

Cat piss.

[A]

So we bring ourselves here today, very conveniently on the subject of March Madness and in fact, North Carolina and in fact Duke, and in fact the guy sitting next to us who may or may not sound like the guy with the prosthetic penis. Because, John, when you watch the tournament, and the tournament is by acclamation, I believe, the greatest postseason production in televised sports. We can debate that. David is wondering if he should debate that.

[C]

If you're talking in total numbers, there's just way more games than the NFL playoffs. But I would assume NFL playoffs would be the greatest. I would assume the World cup is even greater than that. The soccer World Cup, I would put.

[B]

Number one by a factor of two and a half.

[C]

Okay, so now we're playing for second. But continue.

[A]

Or third, the prospect, though, of single elimination cultural rivalries executed by teenagers being their own special TV product. John, that has been in the hands of CBS and also at the earlier rounds. Right. Turner as well. How jealous did that make you as a president of espn?

[B]

It did make me jealous. We wanted. Also made me angry at the time because we at one point made a very strong push to buy the tournament. I literally cannot remember. If I do remember, I don't mind mentioning the name because it was a reasonable guy, but there was somebody who was in charge of selling the tournament at the time. We had met with the folks at the ncaa, Greg something and I had a meeting in the park during the Final Four in Indianapolis. It's right outside the hotel. Everybody stays in and made an offer to buy the tournament. We proposed immediately taking the tournament to 96 teams. We also proposed televising every game. And before we made that offer, remember, in the days before that, they actually regionalized the early round games because CBS could not show but one game. So we thought we had an extraordinarily compelling pro proposition. We will expand the tournament. We will pay you more money. We will put every game on.

[C]

And did you offer abc?

[B]

I do not remember that, David. It's a good question. And it would have come up at that time. They would have asked probably. The answer is probably yes. We probably agreed we'd put the semis and finals on, but I don't know that. And we were laser focused on what drive value to espn. But we not only made that offer, I stood in the park, Indianapolis, and said, and by the way, if anybody else offers more, come back and see me. Because we were prepared to do as we've discussed before, which is we'll pay the most money, we'll show more games. I've always believed there was, as there always is in college athletics, a committee that was going to make this decision. I know because I talked to some of the committee members that one of the. That they were quite loyal to CBS and CBS had done a great job, got no problem with that. I usually found that money trump loyalty. And by the way, doing a better tournament, more play, more teams, more exposure. And that is the time that TNT saved CBS because they went and said, why don't we do it together? We can put all the games on. They did not offer more money. So.

[A]

So espn, your offer was the precipitating event that led to them having to figure out, okay, how do we compete with a network that has all of these other networks also?

[C]

Well, what they realized is they could get more money by showing more games and they had no way to do it, which is cbs, so they had to go with the cable partner, which is why there's games on true tv. And the question is for John, is espn? You would have gone deuce and then three and then four. So what what WBD did is they had different channels that they stood up by putting games on that actually helps them get more fees from distributors. Because true tv, you gotta have it every March. At least you're gonna see games. And I don't esp. Have that issue because you would just have it all on ESPN networks.

[B]

Yeah, we may even have had ESPN3 at that point, which allowed us to put, you know, multiple games on. So we, we could have done, I believe, a better tournament. We also owned the regular season. We had 1500 regular season games. We made the assertion that, look, it's where people go to watch college basketball. You got college game day. You should have it over here at the. Where they had the discussion of where they should go, there was loyalty to CBS and they're also, and I do know this, that part of the conversation was ESPN's got too much and we don't want ESPN to have everything. We insisted on going to 96 and they did the great thing that the NCAA always does, which is they do something dumb, which is let's go to 68. It's like, why, why would that be the response to let's go from 64 to 96. Right. And 32 teams will get a buy first round buy and it'd be great. There'll be more games and they decide to go though I'm the beneficiary at Carolina. You can have that segue.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Why do they decide to go to 68? It's a ridiculous number.

[A]

You would never went to a 16th measure. Yeah, just like a, a fractional increase. By the way, David, are you amused that John's philosophy in every instance when it comes to college sports and his reign atop all of it is can we get more teams into these playoffs?

[C]

Well, that's clearly, that's what they're trying to do. What, what amused me about what he, his last monologue was that his view of the reason, the only reason he was turned down. It's like being the best looking guy in your class and the best looking girl turns you down. You're like, oh, obviously she's interested in tall or short or fat or skinny. It can't be me. It's not me, it's you. So John's position was very simp. Hey, I was so good at my job and so big this network that they didn't want to give me more.

[B]

Well, he said, by the way, if you, if you took a couple of Venusians and said, here's proposition A, here's proposition B. Gee, you're going to get more teams in. You're going to get it on home college basketball. You're going to get more money and this other one. But these guys have been great. They're nice guys. The. There's no doubt it was, there was no doubt. It was a better offer.

[A]

Option B knows what Greg's last name is.

[B]

No, no. And by the way, Greg, Greg. Greg Shaheen was in charge of it and. But he was not the guy in the, in the park. No, he was not the guy.

[C]

The guy in the park in a trench coat.

[B]

No.

[C]

Because it sounds nefarious.

[B]

No, no, he was a committee member and he was sent to so to get our last, last and best.

[C]

Which you said to him, by the way, what a great negotiator are. You said to him, this isn't my Lester best. My last or best. Please come to me. Come to me with some made up offer from someone else and I'll beat that too.

[B]

Well, no, that wouldn't have happened.

[C]

You just said come to me with whatever I did, I said come back in writing.

[B]

I actually knew the people involved and I do not believe they would have lied to me. If they would have, perhaps they would take an advantage of me. But I've had the tournament and as with all of these things, it would have been very profitable and very good for our business and we wanted it.

[C]

Was ESPN ever asked to join cbs? So my first thought is if you can't beat him, join them. So CBS was clearly looking for a partner that had the ability to distribute. It would have made sense to me though in the world of playing nice in the sandbox, ESPN would never do that. But, but having ESPN partner with cbs, why would that be out of the question?

[B]

It would not have been out of the question. At the time CBS was looking to cut expenses. I believe it was run at that point by Les Moonves. Les Moonves was quite skeptical that they should enter into a new, very expensive deal. And I must give Sean McManus and David Levy credit. They banded together to keep the evil empire from taking the tournament by and. And TNT took the lion's share of the money too and did not and got a final I think like in year four or something. So CBS didn't want to give up the semis in the finals, but they ended up doing it.

[C]

So they're now doing it going forward almost every other year. Yeah, TBS is going to have eight Final Fours, I think in Finals in the next, whatever, 20, 20 years, 10 years.

[A]

The agreement runs through 2032. And yes, CBS and will continue to alternate coverage of the Final Four every year. But look, this is just the tonnage on this obviously we're talking about. I mean it was originally in 2010, a 14 year, $10.8 billion deal. And the eight additional years of the contract worth 8.8 billion, nearly matching the value of the original for 14. So the point being, is David going to survive? Yes, he is. He's very good.

[C]

I was going to sneeze and I made the sneeze a cough thinking that's better first for a show. And I don't know which is better actually. No one ever taught me that if.

[A]

You'Re not watching on YouTube. David was what looked like to me doing a dab.

[C]

Have you ever tried to move a sneeze to a cough? I don't want to get you off course, but I, I made a decision and I didn't know what to do. So you caught me mid. And of course you brought it onto the show.

[B]

If you're going to sneeze, I'd appreciate if you go into the other, oh.

[C]

I'm an elbow sneezer. Don't worry about it.

[A]

You get a popcorn bag and sneeze into that, please.

[C]

I do that with anxiety.

[A]

The women's tournament, John, the women's tournament, when you were considering all of this, just to give perspective here, that was not the business that it is becoming. Obviously the business now, by the way, is is regular season ratings up 3% from last year on ESPN, 41% from two seasons ago. So how this again, you are somebody who is also now involved in the business of women's basketball, which we'll also get to. But the women's tournament looks to you like what as it concerns the college game.

[B]

The women's tournament is spectacular. In fact, we've had, I think ESPN still has the women's tournament and that is sold through the NCAA in a big Pac of other tournaments. The men's tournament was taken out separately. So we've always had that. It was always good business. It was always fun. It's become better because the level of competition is so much better. The big problem with the women's tournament 15 years ago, and I use that as a rough measure, was that you knew that Tennessee and Connecticut and a few other teams were going to dominate. They would frequently win their first round games 86 to 38. And there just wasn't a lot of competition and there weren't a lot of big stars. There were a few stars, but the league now has competition. There are actually upsets. There are, there are lots of good players and you have transcendent players that people want to see. The men's tournament, everybody wants to see Cooper flag. In the women's tournament, you've actually got Paige Beckers and juju Watkins. Juju Watkins. So you got real star power. The fact that it went up 3%, the 41%, of course, is a Caitlyn Clark effect. What you have, and I think we had a discussion here about this. I remember what my point of view was, which was this was not this Caitlin Clark phenomenon was going to be built upon and was not a one year phenomenon. That's the what has happened?

[C]

Yeah, we don't know that that's what people are looking for right now in the postseason.

[A]

The regular season so far, though, built on that increase.

[C]

So he blew by something that I just wanted to stop on and examine where the women's tournament as part of a package. That's a really critical point. So when you're meeting someone in the park in a trench coat and the assets you're discussing are the men's tournament, you're talking only about the men's tournament. And there are multiple bidders, billion dollar bids. When you're talking about the women's tournament, the people in the trench coat need to give you a little more. They need to open the kimono. So what ESPN did, because they're looking for program in order justify distributor fees, they need stuff. So what they do is in addition to getting the women's tournament, they throw in a bunch of stuff that the NCAA on its own would value at zero. I mean, I'm, I'm being cruel, but it's very little. And ESPN's willing to do it because they want the women's tournament because they don't get the men's in return, the NCAA gets to go to its members and say, hey, I got water polo, a TV deal, or fencing or soccer or whatever such sport gets lopped in there.

[B]

Well, there were, there was some value. The women's softball, the College World Series for the men's baseball, both very valuable. And those deals with the NCAA were great deals. I forget we paid well.

[A]

I'll give you some numbers now. So this is the first year actually under the eight year, $920 million contract extension between ESPN and the NCAA. The women's tournament specifically valued at 60 per year through 2032. The men's tournament, by comparison, 1.1 billion per year does that.

[C]

I mean, I, I think that we should just understand that we can talk about equality. And there's a whole big thing about equality of pay as it relates to WNBA and NBA or WNBA and unrivaled or college programs on the women's side and the men's side. The market spoke and it, it's just not close.

[A]

So to, to keep David's math in order. Right. So 65 a year. Million. Nearly twice as much as a $34 million average payout in the previous deal. And yet still compared to the 1.1 billion, not small, Not. Not close.

[C]

And so when you're out there getting a package, yes, the College World Series in your mind is valuable because you get the programming of it, you get the sort of. The feel good in Omaha. I understand that it's amazing. But obviously the ncaa, when they're evaluating it, they put it in the pot. And you overpay for the pot because you've got all of the abilities to distribute and the need to distribute it all. That's how the deal gets made. It's a perfect partnership. ESPN for all of that pot, and ncaa, well, the pot, the overall pot.

[B]

Was of great value. Right. Because a lot of programming and for college sports, of course, no matter what you're showing, the uniforms are what people tune in to see other than where there are big stars, like in the women's tournament or in the men's tournament. But there really aren't even any big stars in the College World Series. I mean, you're a baseball guy. They.

[C]

There's a few each year, every narration year.

[B]

You had. What was it? Cat Phillips, who played women's softball, she was a big enough star. I had that wrong.

[A]

The pitcher. The underhand pitcher, Cat.

[B]

Gosh, yeah. I don't think Phillips is right, but Cat is right.

[A]

Yeah. Kat Osterman.

[B]

Osterman. You did have stars emerge. But if the. For instance, if you did do the women's volleyball, which was quite popular, the men's lacrosse, quite popular, field hockey, all those did pretty well on television.

[C]

What are the numbers for field hockey?

[B]

I have no idea.

[C]

Come on, what do you value field hockey at?

[B]

We were at a moment in time where if you put on a test pattern, ESPN did about 250,000 viewers. So if you're going to.

[A]

Which is why the people in the parking lot decided not to go into business with you.

[C]

Think about what he just said. He would just as soon put up pay for zero. Put up the squiggly lines.

[A]

Someone who once posted a test pattern on espn, not feeling good.

[B]

That. That is demonstrably wrong. Actually, I. I insisted that we program 24 7, 365, while many people on cable television were still putting on vacuum cleaner commercials at night. In my tenure of getting content, we made the decision that we were going to have real sports on 24 7, almost no repeats. We took off all the hunting and fishing that used to appear on Saturday morning. And you'll remember the days when women dancing on the beach in aerobics classes used to be on Saturday morning espn. And we took all that off because we could afford to. And it did matter over time. And you didn't get to the 250,000. We never really had a test pattern you didn't get to that until people knew when you cut the channel loan, you're gonna get sports. You're not going to get a vacuum cleaner commercial.

[C]

Sometimes you'll even get Pablo, by the way.

[A]

I think it is one of those sucks less than the other.

[C]

Not by much, but, you know, I.

[B]

Think it is still the case. You can get paid sponsored programming on some of the cable sports networks to this day.

[A]

That is a formative part of my childhood, by the way, just like infomercials, the. The QVC products that I was suddenly very familiar with. But I do want to get to the joining of these two products, actually from the NCAA's perspective, because part of this deal, the extension, the timing of it that was interesting, was that they run through 2032. So this is lining up the men's and women's, which would allow, ostensibly the NCAA to negotiate simultaneously. And what does that unlock?

[C]

Does that sound familiar to you? Does it sound like the NBA and WNBA by any chance, where you lock them up, you get them at the same time, and then you go to ESPN or Turner or cbs, and all of a sudden it's one buyer. You're throwing it out there. You can then assign any value you want to the women's tournament, just.

[B]

But while the women's tournament will be more valuable as it goes up, the more essential foundational question is, will the NCAA be selling it in the next round? And why would they be? Have they demonstrated any significant ability, other than the men's basketball tournament to extract real value?

[C]

Who would be able to extract value out of field hockey?

[A]

But this is.

[C]

I want to.

[A]

I want to actually make this point even more clearly, though, because John is saying something that is, I think, not obvious to most sports fans. The NCAA does not run the College Football Playoff. The ncaa, when it talks about all the things that it's engaging in litigation over with former athletes, it's really revenues from March Madness, like, because the pie of television products, it's mostly March Madness.

[B]

So I don't know the exact numbers, but you said it's an average of 1.1. But they're deep into the deal, so they're paying north of 1.1 billion. They distribute.

[C]

It's.

[B]

It's findable, but I think they distributed 300 somewhere between 250 and $350 million last year to the schools. Now, do the math on that. Let's assume it's 350 to give them the benefit. That means that there is $750 million. That's not being distributed. Why? Because they're paying for a big administrative body in Indianapolis.

[C]

They're not paying $750 million for admin fees.

[B]

No, no, I didn't say it was admin fees.

[C]

I was about to want to have this great discussion with you because what you're saying is, what will replace the NCAA? You need a governing body. You. Unless the SEC says, hey, we got 14 in, we're going to try to go to the network. We'll do our own postseason tournament. The conference tournament on steroids will combine with a few other conferences, make a super conference, not go to 98 teams. We'll go down to 32 teams, and we'll just make it the best of the best.

[B]

Well, I think you're headed in the right direction, but it's not quite right. Look, colleges, athletic departments, college presidents have demonstrated that to get more money, they will do pretty much anything. I don't know why. There's already discussions with SEC and Big Ten sort of bullying into, we're going to get more guaranteed slots in the College Football Playoff. So they got the mindset already that we're going to keep other people out. Why wouldn't you create four super conferences, 64 teams, and that's your governing body. Your governing body is, we run ourselves like most leagues do. Who else has FIFA? And you see how great that works. Who else has a governing body which is an independent third party? The NFL does their own thing. NBA does their own thing. Major League Baseball does their own thing. Why don't four college conferences go, we're going to do our own basketball tournament, 64 teams. And we will. We will. Now we'll sell that for a billion and a half dollars and we'll divide that among our schools and we will further separate the haves from the have nots.

[C]

I hate that. Literary reference alert, Animal Farm.

[B]

And why do you hate that? Because you want a Cinderella to get in. St. Francis is in the lowest rated.

[A]

What's so great about John is literally what I.

[C]

He asks you a question, but then he answers it for you.

[A]

And also, if you're not watching on YouTube, fluttered his hands around, oh, I.

[B]

Want to Cinderella again. It's so great when St. Francis gets in. It's great on the St. Francis campus. I guarantee you all the broadcasters are going, oh, my God, can't you just put, by the way, they'll get us to the controversy on North Carolina. The broadcasters are going, this is all.

[A]

Coming back to North Carolina.

[B]

Everybody's gonna bring Bubba. But the people to blame are if you are the broadcaster, you want the best teams. I would go to a 64 team tournament. You're gonna try to say I influenced it. I didn't.

[C]

Because why would I try to say that? Now you're answering questions and you're actually saying affirmative statements. Frankly, Pablo, I think you and I can have the rest of the day off. I think we just give John the show, let him ask the questions, answer the questions, and then say exactly what we're gonna think. Because if you were doing that, I would say what I was gonna say to you is that you deny all the time that you had nothing to do. Hey, the Marlins, they're in. That's great. No problem. We love them. We're so happy to have them. It's horse hockey. You would prefer to have just North Carolina. You'd prefer to have North Carolina, Duke do everything?

[B]

Well, I would actually prefer to just be able to declare that North Carolina has one every year. That would make me the happiest.

[A]

I now realize that David and I are doing the thing where he sees the Marlins and I see Davidson, I see Steph Curry, David sees the Marlins, I see George Mason. You know, like the idea of the under. I mean, as much as there is a poetic, you know, Vaseline on the lens montage thing, we can flutter our arms about, the whole magic of why I said by popular acclamation, this is a special thing is because in fact, it is the underdog capacity.

[C]

You know how much money there is in the two words, upset alert. Upset alert is a foundational concept of the March Madness tournament.

[B]

You still have an upset alert. You put 64 teams in. They are the 64 teams that make up conference A, B, C and D. And then when the 15 seed upsets from the SEC upsets the number three seed from the Big Ten, that's an upset alert. And it's two teams that more people care about and forget for a minute whether it's a better aesthetic event. What do you think any of the college commissioners and presidents care? They want more money. Well, haven't we talked on this show over and over? The fans are never considered. They're not doing Cinderella for you, Pablo. I know. If they could look at, instead of splitting up, the individual conferences end up getting 35 million, 40, 50, 60 million. If you could look at splitting up a billion and a half, that's $375 million distributed to 16 schools. So I'm not suggesting. I think it's more poetic or more interesting or you have these beautiful stories. I'm just suggesting the economic value of that. 375. I can't quite do the math with 16, but it's 20. It's close to $25 million a school. So you think if somebody could get those guys in a room and go, why don't you do this?

[C]

Well, same reason why the Yankees and Red Sox don't split off and form their own league, because they've threatened that before. And the reason they never do it is they recognize that actually no one wants to see a season or a world or a league where it's just the elite teams from two or three cities. And that's, that's called the World cup.

[B]

That's called the playoffs, the NFL playoffs.

[C]

But you need a league. You need.

[B]

Well, you have a league. You have 64 teams. And by the way, there's another beautiful thing which is they can't play out there playing football and they can only play each other. So now every week you're getting 32 games that are good games. What are the games, by the way? You love those underdogs, so you must love when Alabama beats Troy State 56 to 3 and when.

[C]

Right, this is his programmer talk. So he's talking about. He wants those playoff type games with those same. It's why you see Red Sox, Yankees, Sunday Night Baseball every Sunday. That is what the dream is of someone in his position, but that is the dream of someone who doesn't have ownership of a league or of a team because it doesn't actually increase the value of your program if you're shrinking down all of the possible opponents and putting yourself in an ivory tower like that, it's why they've never done it.

[B]

So if you knew that every time Alabama played they were going to play a Division 1 team from a major conference, would that make you happy or sad that you're going to miss Alabama beating up on some, some poor school for a million dollars?

[A]

I, I think that when it comes to the regular season, actually I'm okay with John's plan to bolster the strength of schedule. Totally cool with that. The, the whole, the whole point of college basketball, though, I think is to reinforce the first word in the name. And maybe, John, your position is merely that we are so past that at this point that it's naive to argue for a replication of what college is, meaning that Auburn is actually in the same world as Alabama State. But that to me is entirely the appeal of March Madness and the tournament.

[B]

It, it may be, but it's not. It's. We've already decided it's a professional sport. They get paid.

[C]

They do. But you. The current offer, you're saying a billion dollars is where they are in their current TV deal for the 68 member tournament in a deal that you have acknowledged that you would take over today if given the opportunity and still running the SPM today, you would want to do the tournament exactly as is. As much as you complain about it. You would take the 68 teams right now.

[B]

I think I'd take 65, 67, 6 and 67. Even if I knew it as is. And you know, even if I knew North Carolina was six. No, no, I'm not telling you my preference. No, the 68 is ridiculous. But no, I want 96.

[C]

It's never even been a consideration to expand the tournament to that number.

[B]

Oh, no, it has been because it has been.

[C]

So I want to hear about this because why would they.

[A]

Why would take beyond John in his Watergate parking lot with the trench coat, has there been momentum to 96 teams outside of you or.

[B]

I know that the NCAA has discussed it several times and it will happen at some point because they'll want to get more money and then we'll argue about.

[C]

But you were offering it 10 years ago.

[B]

I know.

[C]

So what do you mean it'll happen? One day it will happen. You were already in the market offering more money for 96 and it was turned down. And we're here all these years later, two extensions later, and it's never been put to 96.

[B]

It's because of the beauty of a committee. And the committee decides that the right number to go from four. And this is. Now I'm back to the football is 4 to 12. The right number to go to is 8 or 16.

[A]

So you're saying that's a vestige of the politics that are going to be irrelevant because the haves and have nots are already very evidently one or the other.

[C]

He's saying something even more. I'm going to speak for him. He's actually saying that his view is that in 2032 it's not going to be the NCAA who's going to be negotiating a new deal on behalf of men's college basketball. It's going to be an entity controlled by what he hopes is going to be four power conferences.

[B]

I didn't. By the way. I'm not hoping for it. I'm expressing my opinion that with this amount of money at stake, the haves are going to decide we want to keep more of that money and we're Going to keep more of that money by restricting who gets into the tournament. And by the way. And 96 is too many teams in a way, right? It's too many. You already got.

[C]

You're backing off the 96.

[B]

No, no. You're confusing my personal. What I want from what I think will happen because of the influence of money in the game.

[A]

So we're distinguishing between John Skipper, man who is trying to maximize the financial incentives of everybody as the president of a media empire and now John as normal North Carolinian family head of a family. That's right.

[C]

With a large.

[A]

With a large tournament field.

[B]

My grandfather was a governor of North Carolina and my father was a very successful. That's pretty businessman.

[C]

And they're both dead.

[B]

And thank God the Lord took them.

[C]

How much money is going to the players in your scenario?

[B]

Well, there you go. You could solve some of the nil problem by taking half of that money. And I'm just making this up so I might be thinking something stupid. You take half that money and you just say every team gets this amount of money and you stop the kind of craziness of having these events where a thousand players go into a portal and go to the highest bidder. Which means that's a worse habit.

[C]

I love that. That's pure free agency.

[B]

Well, I'm not necessarily for pure. I wasn't really for nil. But they've decided they're going to pay the players. They've ended up with a system which is ridiculous. It means that you know, your local car dealer can go buy you a quarterback and you're better. Wouldn't it be better if you took that money from the NCAA basketball tournament and actually set a wage scale and said here's what players are going to get played paid so that you don't have this ridiculous, you know, nine players out of a 12 person squad go into the portal and you're a fan and you now no longer even know who your team is.

[C]

He confuses me. I assumed that if I had to know John Skipper that he would be a huge fan of the portal of a person's inalienable right to maximize their profit making ability as a worker in the fields with their backs burning in the sunlight.

[B]

As always, David, they usually play inside.

[A]

You underestimate sports's preeminent socialist capitalist.

[B]

Exactly. I'm a socialist capitalist.

[C]

He tries to tell me that and I, and I don't know what he means. I don't, I don't understand. It just makes him feel better. I guess.

[A]

I would like to ask you both what is burning inside of your brains beyond capitalism, socialism and all of that? Because, David, you've had a big week on Nothing Personal, talking about the business of now, international baseball. Is that where you want to go?

[C]

I would like to talk about international baseball because there is money to be made and baseball was cashing checks this week and there was a lot of domestic criticism and it's so misguided by people in the media or just haters who don't understand how you could play baseball at 6am New York time each morning, Tuesday and Wednesday. But the fact is these games were not for the US as shocking as that sounds, these games were for Japan and for the Japanese people. And they were 7:10pm games in Japan. And MLB printed money. The Dodgers won two games against the Cubs. Is that what you're about to ask?

[B]

No, I was going to say, why is anybody upset about that? What's the problem?

[C]

Oh, people have gone crazy over now. There's. You've watered down opening day by starting the season.

[A]

These are real games.

[C]

These count in the standings, regular season games where MLB made as much money in these two regular season games as any other regular season games you can make. So of course they're going to go to Japan because Japan keeps paying.

[B]

I don't understand the objection, people.

[C]

I have no objection. People object to 6am start times, 3am in LA. If you're going to watch.

[A]

They can't watch it in America, conveniently.

[B]

Aren't there 162 games? Are there people who are.

[C]

Opening day is a holiday, though. Opening day. You don't go to school, you watch games.

[A]

Now there are multiple games as well.

[C]

And so it waters it down. It used to be the first game of every year. Quick trivia. Do you know where the first game was every single year in baseball? You should actually know this Mr. Programmer who loves baseball so much. And you would never show them on espn.

[A]

So it's not the Yankees or the Red Sox.

[C]

And it created a whole big thing within the room because the Cincinnati Reds started every season. And you and Coco will check me.

[A]

The Great American Ballpark.

[C]

It was not the Great American Ballpark when this tradition started, but it is.

[A]

Now just an audacious name to name anything.

[C]

And so it would be the first. No, that's named after a company. It's not.

[B]

I thought it was named after that.

[C]

Because it's the greatest merit. Hold on.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

Wait a minute.

[C]

Am I wrong on that?

[A]

I believe so. Okay. Hold on. In your defense, I Am I'm being told that Great American Insurance Group. Okay, still an audacious name to name your insurance group. But now I digress.

[C]

Just to be right, Cincinnati, you would never put him on the air. And that was the first game that was supposed to be. That was a thing. But espn, back in your day. Back in my day, had zero interest in having the Cincinnati Reds start off a baseball season. And so that's when we went to the defending champions the night before the start of opening day as a way to get a little extra money from you. And that's when we went to actually opening nights and opening days on the same day.

[B]

Good idea. Good idea.

[C]

By the way, hater.

[B]

The. The. No, no on this. I am. I think that baseball going abroad to play games solves several problems. They can go play somewhere where it's warm. My most miserable opening day experience was being at the Chicago Cubs opener and getting snowed upon. And that is a problem.

[C]

You weren't in a suite at Wrigley.

[B]

No, I was in the stands.

[A]

I have John in the stands like he was at Trump's inauguration in the back in America.

[B]

No, no, I think it's quite good. And I'll also say something else positive about baseball here. Baseball is a sport with true international appeal and I think they can build upon that. They're doing it smartly here and they should do it. And I'm perplexed because I think there's still 162 games. I know opening day is special, but if anybody who's a baseball fan ends up the end of the year and goes, oh my gosh, I just Wish we had 10 more games, I'd be shocked.

[A]

We have approximately. Speaking of of of time and games allotted. We have only a couple minutes, John, for you to say what is burning inside of your brain.

[B]

Well, since we've pre planned this, what's burning inside of my brain is I was assigned.

[A]

We're just trying to replicate human relations.

[B]

And that burning inside my brain is unrivaled. I have to disclose that I have some level of investment in that league, had a very successful final weekend and in fact had a very spectacularly successful opening season.

[A]

Yes, the Rose are the champions. This is Angel Reese's team without Angel Reese. But they are the newly crowned spoilers.

[C]

She got hurt playing in an off season, non WNBA sanctioned tournament.

[B]

Well, it is off season, but it. When you say non sanctioned, I'm not sure what that means.

[C]

Are the Wm. Are they part. Is Adam Silver your partner the W.

[B]

In neither the WNBA nor the NBA has any financial or perhaps any interest in the.

[C]

Maybe a negative interest.

[B]

But no, no, this is no different. We started a league successfully started during the off season. Nobody is prohibited from playing basketball in the off season. It was one of the real concerns. So I don't want to be flipping about that that people would get hurt. No one got seriously, seriously hurt. And I think Angel Reese was kept out for in the in an abundance of caution. Yeah. But thank you. I was struggling with that.

[A]

But 364,000 people watched this team without Angel Reese win the title on TNT and True tv, which is again, we'll talk more about this later. But that's just an impressive number for year one of a new thing, a three on three league.

[C]

Most leagues don't even make it past a year. Some leagues don't get through a full year and you've done that and I can't wait for you to announce year two.

[B]

Look up what the three. The. The three on three old basketball player league. What ratings they do.

[A]

The big three.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not quite the same.

[B]

Not quite the same.

[A]

Not quite as great. But for us here at the Great American Sports Business Podcast, otherwise known as the Sporting Class, thank you both. Right of time.

[C]

Can't believe that. See you later.

[A]

Get your popcorn ready. Pablo Torre finds Out is produced by Walter Abaroma, Ryan Cortez, Sam Dawig, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, neely Loman, Rob McRae, Rachel Miller, Howard Carl Scott, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, Chris Tuminello and Juliet Warren. Our studio engineering by RG Systems. Our sound design by NGW Post. Our theme song, as always, is by John Bravo and we will talk to you next time.