The Teenage Athlete at the Heart of America's Culture War... Isn't Very Good at Sports

Summary

Podcast Summary

Pablo Torre Finds Out: "The Teenage Athlete at the Heart of America's Culture War... Isn't Very Good at Sports"

Date: November 24, 2023
Host: Pablo Torre (with segments featuring producers, co-hosts, and guest Ember Zelch)
Main Guest: Ember Zelch, Ohio high school softball player

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the reality behind the political and media frenzy about transgender girls participating in girls' sports by focusing on a real-life teenager, Ember Zelch, who became the specific target of Ohio's anti-trans athlete legislation. Pablo Torre visits Ember to uncover her actual sports ability, lived experiences, and the disconnect between public rhetoric and reality.

The narrative interrogates the broader "culture war" around trans athletes, exposing how policies and outrage often target a largely invisible, minuscule population, and in this case, a single teenager who simply wants to belong.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Real vs. Perceived Threat of Trans Athletes

• Opening Context – The National Narrative

  • Pablo and his colleagues set up today's "most urgent story in sports," not as Deion Sanders or Aaron Rodgers, but as the supposed crisis of "biological boys playing in girls' sports," a talking point dominating political discourse (03:16).
  • Clips from politicians and cable news highlight the intense rhetoric:

    “The idea that we have biological boys playing in girls sports. It is the women’s issue of our time.” (03:16)
    “Transgenderism is a lie. You don’t get to choose your own gender...” (03:26)

• Statistics vs. Public Perception

  • The public wildly overestimates the number of trans people:

    “One study found that the average American now believes that 21% of American adults identify as trans... Do you know... what the real percentage is?” – Pablo (07:51)
    “0.5%. According to UCLA’s Williams Institute, the actual answer is 0.5% of American adults are trans.” – Pablo (07:55)

  • The number of trans kids in sports is even smaller; in Ohio, at the time of legislative debate, there was exactly one trans girl playing varsity sports.

Introducing Ember Zelch (10:13)

• Who Is Ember?

  • Not a prodigy athlete but a soft-spoken, animal-loving, self-proclaimed nerd who happens to be the sole trans girl on a high school sports team in Ohio.
  • Her bedroom is filled with animal care paraphernalia and a single participation trophy (11:23):

    “The only thing that’s even metal here is the foil that’s all over your bed.” – Pablo (10:26)
    “That foil is to prevent [my cats] from peeing on my bed.” – Ember (10:42)

• Fact-Checking the Myth

  • Pablo meets Ember’s mother, who bluntly confirms Ember’s utter ordinariness as an athlete:

    “How would you describe Ember’s athletic prowess?” – Pablo (14:00)
    “There really isn’t much.” – Ember’s mother (14:12)
    “No, she’s never hit a home run in her life.” – Ember’s mother (14:14)

Ember’s Experience: Identity and Bureaucracy (19:01–25:28)

• Coming Out and Wanting to Play

  • Ember recounts coming out in 5th grade (pushed back into the closet by a friend’s comment), finally coming out at home in 7th grade.

    “I told a friend of mine at the time, I think I’m a girl... She told me, ‘You’ll always be a boy to me.’ And that ended up pushing me in the closet for two more years.” – Ember (19:01)

  • Her mother shares the pain and concern:

    “You hug her, you love her... going to bed at night and just crying yourself to sleep... because we knew how much harder it would make her life.” – Ember’s mom (19:35)

• The Medical and Regulatory Gauntlet

  • To play on a girls’ team required a year of hormone therapy, regular medical evaluations, and an invasive verification of physical metrics.

    “For me, it meant a testosterone suppressant and taking estradiol for a year... nine pills in the morning, nine pills at night.” – Ember (21:44)

  • The compliance process is bewildering and humiliating:

    “It was incredibly invasive. And ultimately, it just creates the feeling of just like, they don’t view me as a real girl.” – Ember (24:50)

The Local vs. Legislative Response (25:38–34:05)

• Team Acceptance vs. Political Hostility

  • Teammates barely noticed, let alone cared, about Ember being trans.

    “...everyone got into a circle... I was like, I am Ember Zelch, upcoming freshman in college, and I am trans. Half of the facial expressions just like, ‘Okay, I’m gay.’... Not that I was trans, but that I told them I was trans, like it was a big deal.” – Ember (27:26)

  • The only real opposition came from “mostly older male politicians” (28:36).

    “They are doing their damn best to make it illegal for me to play.” – Ember (28:50)

  • Pablo sums up the irony:

    "The entire state, again, was organized against one trans girl, which was you.” – Pablo (31:53)

• Testifying before Politicians and Encountering Absurdity

  • Ember repeatedly testifies at the State House, facing demeaning treatment:

    “It’s demeaning, and it’s horrifically painful to have to look up at people who are in these big chairs above you and essentially plead to them to not take away your rights.” – Ember (32:29)

  • At times, opposition arguments veer into religious territory:

    “The only thing that makes sense for what’s going on in this country is that demons are influencing people, allowing their bodies to be possessed to run satanic agendas.” – “Demon dude” (35:35)

• Legislative Dishonesty

  • Lawmakers lie about "countless complaints" concerning trans students in sports; the Ohio High School Athletic Association confirms there have been zero (37:45).

    “We... cross checked this... and yeah, the Ohio High School Athletic Association says in writing that there have been zero filed complaints against any trans students who’ve been approved to compete to date.” – Pablo (37:49)

What Trans Kids in Sports Actually Experience (38:44–41:58)

• Normalcy, Community, and Subpar Facilities

  • Ember’s testimony focuses on her normal experience, emphasizing the camaraderie and ordinariness of playing on a team.

    “Playing on a girls team has been an incredible experience for me... My teams are part of my family.” – Ember (38:44)

  • Real support for women’s sports would prioritize resources, not exclusion:

    “Almost every field was crap... My team had to get on a bus to go to our field. Not for an away game, to our home game.” – Ember (39:29, 40:19)

• Personal Consequences

  • Faced with unending scrutiny, Ember chooses to leave Ohio for college, giving up an in-state $10,000 scholarship to prioritize her mental health (41:08).
  • She jokes about her “athletic scholarship” being for “keeping the bench warm”:

    “They sent some scouts for this Division 3 school and they saw, oh, that girl on the bench… We want her on our team.” – Ember (42:02)

Why Keep Playing? The True Value of Sport (42:54–47:11)

• Refuge in the Game

  • Sports serve as escape and joy, not just competition:

    “On the field, I can put away all the bull, all this legislation, scholarships, all these thoughts... and I can join this group of people who understand my desire to just want to be part of a team.” – Ember (42:54)

• The Reluctance of Visibility

  • Torchbearer status is a burden, not an aspiration:

    “I hate it. I’m not even joking... I don’t want to be the center of focus. I don’t want to have to testify. It sucks. I don’t want that. I hate interviews. I’m an introvert.” – Ember (45:27)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |---|---|---| | 07:51 | Pablo | “One study found that the average American now believes that 21% of American adults identify as trans... the real percentage is 0.5%.” | | 10:13 | Pablo (to Ember) | “I’ve been told that you’re amazing at softball… but the only thing that’s even metal here is the foil on your bed.” | | 14:12 | Ember’s Mom | “There really isn’t much.” (on Ember’s athletic prowess) | | 21:57 | Ember | “That’s not the only thing I’m taking. But, like, altogether, the concoction is nine pills in the morning, nine pills at night.” | | 24:50 | Ember | “It was incredibly invasive. And ultimately, it just creates the feeling of just like, they don’t view me as a real girl, per se.” | | 27:58 | Ember | “Not that I was trans, but that I told them I was trans, like it was a big deal.” | | 35:35 | Demon Dude | “Demons are influencing people, allowing their bodies to be possessed to run satanic agendas.” | | 37:51 | Pablo | “We cross checked... there have been zero complaints against transgender athletes in this state.” | | 42:54 | Ember | “On the field I can put away all the bull, all this legislation, scholarships, all these thoughts... and I can join this group of people…” | | 45:27 | Ember | “I hate it. I’m not even joking... I don’t want to be the center of focus. I don’t want to have to testify. It sucks.” |

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:50 – Politicians’ inflammatory rhetoric on trans girls in sports
• 07:55 – Actual statistics on trans people in America
• 10:13 – Pablo meets Ember, begins fact-checking the “dominant athlete” myth
• 14:12 – Ember’s mom on Ember’s sports skills
• 19:01 – Ember’s coming out story and family response
• 21:44 – Medical requirements and transition for sports participation
• 24:50 – Privacy and dignity compromised by state bureaucracy
• 27:26 – Teammate reactions vs. political outrage
• 28:36 – Politicians as the sole source of resistance
• 32:29 – Dehumanizing experience of testifying in the State House
• 35:35 – “Demon dude” and the metaphysical arguments
• 37:51 – Exposing the myth of “countless complaints”
• 38:44 – Ember’s testimony about her true sports experience
• 39:29 – Real problems: Lack of facilities and support for girls’ sports
• 41:08 – Ember’s tough decision to leave Ohio and D3 softball
• 42:54 – Ember explains why she keeps playing despite adversity
• 45:27 – Reluctant figurehead: the personal toll of being a “representative”

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Conclusion & Takeaway

The episode dismantles the myth of a widespread, competitive threat posed by trans girls in sports, revealing how political efforts and media hysteria target, in some cases, only one person. Rather than a sports prodigy stealing trophies, Ember is a benchwarmer who must fight state legislatures merely for the right to be included. The episode delivers poignant reflections on belonging, the purpose of youth sports, and the harm of scapegoating a statistically invisible minority for political gain.

"They are not all Lia Thomas. They’re benchwarmers, too. They’re teenagers who just want to be on a team where they belong... just not that good at sports. And just like us human beings who deserve the right to be completely mediocre at the thing they love." – Pablo (49:00)

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This episode is essential listening for anyone seeking to understand the human realities behind national debates, and to separate cultural myth from statistical fact and individual lived experience.

Transcript

[A]

So I bet that you're having some uncomfortable conversations with people that you only kinda like. Maybe it's at your family table, maybe it's at the local bar near a high school that you visit around this time of year, annually. Whatever it is, I have an episode for you that will empower you to be a little more interesting about some of the oldest saws in problematic family discussion. So that's this episode. Did I give you my spiel, by the way, yesterday, about rating and reviewing and how that's really important and how that's, you know, you know, something I now need to beg you for? That's how important it is.

[B]

I did.

[A]

Oh, okay. Well, I just did it again. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[B]

Please enjoy.

[A]

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[C]

The only thing that makes sense for what's going on in this country is that demons are influencing people, allowing their bodies to be possessed to. To run satanic agendas.

[B]

Right after this ad.

[D]

You'Re listening to Giraffe Kings Network.

[A]

So, Cortez, I want people to understand that I walk into the office, proud to host. Pablo Torre finds out because we've built a newsroom.

[E]

A newsroom?

[A]

Yes, a newsroom.

[E]

Do you understand? A newsroom to me has to have, like a piece of print newspaper and like ink on your fingers and stuff like that. That's not a newsroom.

[A]

There is residue on our fingers, not ink, admittedly.

[E]

Go wash your hands.

[A]

The point I'm trying to make is that I walk into this newsroom trying to figure out every day, like, what are we supposed to cover? And I just want to ask you, for the sake of rigor of journalistic introspection, what do you think the biggest story Cortez is in sports right now?

[E]

For me, the biggest story is Deion Sanders double overtime win, obviously prime time. That's a good impression. Of an impression.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Of an impression.

[F]

Yeah.

[E]

And right up there with Deion, arguably even ahead of Deion, to me personally, since you asked me, is Aaron Rodgers telling Pat McAfee that how he plans to heal his injury is to listen to dolphins having sex with each other and that would help him with mating process.

[A]

I wish that this was something that.

[B]

We had conceived as like a joke, but no, that's. Yeah, that's. That's.

[E]

I'm healed.

[A]

That. That is what the New York gets. Are counting on. Fully torn acl. Dolphin sex. Right, Right. All of these are the stories we might consider.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But for me, if you listen to the news right now, okay, actual alleged journalistic outlets, if you listen to the people running for president, the biggest story in sports, the most urgent story, most pressing thing they want to talk about that has to do with sports in any way is not Deion or Mike McDaniel or Aaron Rodgers libido. It's not any of that.

[B]

It's this.

[D]

The idea that we have biological boys playing in girls sports. It is the women's issue of our time.

[B]

I'd say it's more. It's more than just cheating. It's dangerous, and it's insane.

[D]

Transgenderism is a lie. You don't get to choose your own gender. The vast majority of Americans actually agree with that point, that your gender is assigned at birth. It's the way that God made you.

[C]

You take out a loan, you pay it back.

[B]

If you commit a violent crime, you go to jail.

[F]

And if God made you a man.

[B]

You play sports against men. Some women are being badly injured by the wind burn that's caused by the man going so much faster. The wind is blowing.

[A]

There are so many more clips like that. But I also want to say right up top here, I get why some people listening are already just exhausted by this episode and by the fact that I'm trying to Trojan horse trans athletes into this show. And I say that because these clips are everywhere, right? I mean, this is. Trans athletes are a front in this forever culture war that is endless. And people all the time on Twitter, on, on cable news at home, maybe at your awkward Thanksgiving dinner, people are arguing, complaining about both the merits of the arguments for and against, but also just we all hate each other because people seem dug in and they refuse to admit some stuff that. Yeah, that, that seems to be settled science.

[E]

I mean, when I, you know, as a longtime, like Lebatard show listener, what I think about when I hear you say all that is like the reaction on that show anytime Lebatard talks about other. You know, they had a transgender politician on not that long ago named Zoe Zephyr. Very benign what they said, and that the reaction was poisonous and infuriating.

[A]

And so I just wanna be very open here, extremely open here as a quote, unquote liberal, because there is one extremely broadly persuasive argument that all of these anti trans talking heads legislators are making against trans women, against trans girls, of course, in specific, because the most famous trans woman right now, Cortez especially, let's even put it in sports, the most famous trans female athlete right now.

[E]

Is who I Mean, in sports is no doubt Lia Thomas, you know, the famous trans female swimmer from Penn.

[A]

Very good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes, really good at swimming. Which is the problem. Right. The problem is that, yes, Lia Thomas is a case study, this cudgel that people are beating this issue over the head with. Because the argument goes, the persuasive argument goes, look at how all of these trans women, all of these trans girls have these undeniable sexual, scientifically validated physical advantages over, quote, unquote, biological women, which.

[B]

Is what they call them, right?

[A]

So these trans girls, categorically, the argument goes, are better and stronger and faster than biological girls at sports.

[B]

And so what does this mean?

[A]

It means that your daughters, America's daughters, okay, they're all losing scholarships and opportunities and trophies to these trans girls who have this enormous unfair competitive advantage. And it's the logic, it's the very logic behind why the US House of Representatives in April passed a federal bill that mirrors this legislation that has now been successfully passed by 23 states, all of which are banning trans girls from playing girls sports.

[E]

23 is a lot.

[A]

Yes, about half of the country. Right. And even more states like, like Ohio, for instance, are trying to enact anti trans bills as we speak in June. In June, Ohio's House of Representatives approved a bill that would ban trans girls from playing in girls sports as early as kindergarten.

[E]

Kindergarten.

[A]

Banning trans girls as young as kindergarten through college. But there is one part of the story that I think I want to establish with you, because the part that people don't like to talk about in, in all of these arguments is just how many trans people in general there actually are in America. Right? Because the consistent message here is that this threat is everywhere. It's pervasive, it's enormous. And so one study to that point, one study found that the average American now believes that 21% of American adults identify as trans. 21% of American adults are trans people is what the average American presumes. Do you know, Cortez, what the real percentage is?

[E]

I mean, given polling errors and stuff, maybe half that. 10%, something like that.

[A]

0.5%. Okay, 0.5%. According to UCLA's Williams Institute, the actual answer is 0.5% of American adults are trans. And that's a fraction, a fraction of 1%. And so I bring this up just to say that the number of trans kids, the number of trans girls actually playing sports in America, that number of kids who are allegedly taking away scholarships and opportunities and trophies, that number is obviously even tinier than that. And so there was one Associated press story in 2021 that I cannot stop thinking about because it surveyed two dozen lawmakers that were sponsoring these bills. And they found that in almost every case. In almost every case, what the reporting said verbatim, they could not cite a single trans female athlete in real life in their own state or region, whatever they represented that had caused the problem they were allegedly solving. That's insane. So. So in one state in particular, I want to focus again on Ohio. Here in Ohio, there was exactly one trans girl playing varsity sports at the time that they tried to pass these anti trans bills. And this trans girl was a catcher on her high school softball team named Ember Zelch. Now, Leah Thomas, I had heard of Ember Zelch. I had never, ever heard of. Had you? No.

[E]

But that's a name I'm sure not to forget because it's an awesome name.

[B]

It is pretty badass, actually. Yes, yes.

[A]

So the truth behind Ember Zelch, the name, the person, what's behind there, that is why I decided to go on a scouting trip to Northeast Ohio. Because I wanted to find Ember Zelch, the trans girl who is too good at softball. Right. So good, in fact, at softball that the state of Ohio tried to ban her from doing it, from playing this sport. And I needed to find out how good Ember Zelch actually is.

[B]

I've been told that you're amazing at softball at all sports. Really?

[F]

I mean, truly incredible. I mean, just look at all my trophies around here.

[B]

I want to be clear about what is around here.

[G]

Yeah.

[B]

Because as much as cable news is telling me that you're one of the great softball players of all time, the only thing that's even metal here is the foil that's all over your bed. And I don't know why there's foil on your bed.

[F]

My cats have a bad habit of peeing on my bed. So that foil is to prevent them from peeing on my bed.

[B]

So the foil is a. Is a. Is an anti cat measure.

[G]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, so I should probably just say very clearly here that before we sat down for our actual interview, Ember Zelch agreed to show me something in the interests of total journalistic transparency here, her room.

[B]

Where are the trophies, though? Like, where are the medals? Where are the plots?

[F]

Right up there.

[B]

Can we get a shot of this?

[G]

That is.

[F]

That is my participation trophy.

[B]

What's this?

[A]

There's like a purple.

[F]

That's snargle.

[B]

Snargle. There's a purple snargle. What is snargle? For people who can't see. Snargle.

[F]

I don't know how to describe Snargle.

[B]

It's almost like an alligator or crocodile.

[F]

But purple dragon, I think more dragon head.

[B]

You have a book about bonsai trees. You have some novels. You have an animal.

[F]

Yes, this is Marble. He is a Chua gecko. And he was just asleep, but he's not now.

[B]

Sorry, Marble, for dragging you into my invasion.

[F]

Would you like to hold this one? You can hold this one.

[B]

I'll try.

[F]

He won't really fall off.

[B]

Okay. Oh, right. Because of the whole get go thing. Marble and trust me.

[F]

Wow. You feel that? He's got those toe pads.

[B]

It's super, super, like, soft.

[F]

Very soft.

[A]

Can Marble, like, hang from your glasses?

[F]

He can.

[B]

Ember has glasses. I should point that out.

[F]

Very nerdy moss green glasses.

[A]

I'm getting. As Ember is sitting here in her.

[B]

Computer chair with her gecko wrapped around her glasses, I'm getting big jock vibes.

[F]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Just like huge alpha, like, dominant energy from you. This is not the room of the person I was promised. I thought that this would be. Yeah, this would be a little different. The back of your softball card. What kind of stats are on the back of that, would you say? And by the way, that sound is Ember spritzing the interior of the gecko.

[F]

Sorry, forgot about the microphones. Yeah, just giving him some water. He's not very smart. So I need to spray his entire enclosure.

[B]

I think Marvel is smart. I'm just saying that you haven't seen.

[F]

Him try and eat. I feed him with a spoon.

[B]

So what you're telling me is that the person at the center of Ohio's legislation banning trans girls from playing sports because they're too dominant spends most of.

[F]

Her time feeding a gecko? I mean, that's probably what should be on the back of my softball. Just feed soup to gecko with spoon.

[A]

And so I decided to fact check all of this with Ember's mom, Minna Zelch, who is.

[B]

Blunt. How would you describe Ember's athletic prowess?

[D]

There really isn't much.

[A]

How about any home runs?

[D]

No, she's never hit a home run in her life.

[F]

So growing up, I was. I was a weird kid.

[B]

What were you into?

[F]

Animals. And in particular, I really, really liked lizards and snakes.

[B]

What is really, really liking lizards and snakes? Entail?

[F]

I think we had possibly 32 animals at the peak.

[B]

That's Ember. That is so many more animals than I would have guessed when you said I really liked lizards and snakes. Like, the greatest Baseball players of all time. You had. Oh, yeah, 32 animals and had a love of reptiles and snakes.

[G]

Yes.

[F]

And I did shows with them. I did educational shows as a job. I started at 10 years old in my best friend's garage because it was for his birthday. And I would just teach people about these animals and let them hold them.

[A]

So you are having, like, a reptile show.

[B]

Mm. Where are the reptiles right now?

[F]

Right below us.

[B]

In the basement?

[G]

Yes.

[F]

Do you want me to go get one? I can totally go get one for you right now.

[B]

Let's do that.

[F]

Yeah. I'll be right back.

[B]

Holy.

[F]

All right, so these.

[B]

So I want to describe for the people who are just listening to this and not watching on our YouTube channel, what you've brought me.

[F]

Yeah. So these are leopard boas. They are a dwarf species with a color mutation, so they only top out about 6ft, 5 to 6ft.

[A]

Yeah, well.

[F]

Well, I mean, if they weren't a door species, they could get up to 15ft.

[B]

What's the name of this one that's crawling at your microphone?

[F]

Yeah, that's Violet.

[B]

My daughter's name is Violet.

[F]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah.

[F]

Yeah, that's Violet.

[A]

I'm never gonna think of my daughter's.

[B]

Name in the same way ever again.

[F]

She is actually really sweet. If you want, you can hold her.

[B]

I don't know about that.

[F]

That's fine.

[B]

Yep.

[F]

So, and the other one, this one's Kapok. He's actually shedding right now.

[B]

So explain the symbolism here, because the snakes that you have wrapped around you as we're talking here, they are not as scary as I had presumed when you said, I'm gonna go get these two snakes.

[G]

Yeah.

[F]

Yeah. So that's part of why I love them so much, is because they are misunderstood. They are. People expect them to be scary or particularly dangerous. These things are really only dangerous to my birds and my cats or, like, an infant, but there's no infants here. Where are you going?

[B]

I think he's trying to adjust the lighting.

[F]

Let's not do that.

[B]

Give me your Dungeons and Dragons credentials.

[F]

I'm currently in a D and D campaign with my little brother at church. I've made, like, at least four different characters, not including the ones that I've helped people make. And then I've been involved with a DD club at my school, so total jock energy.

[B]

Give me your other nerd credentials.

[F]

Other nerd creden.

[B]

I mean, not that I'm in doubt at this point on account of the snake handling.

[F]

I really love mythology.

[B]

Yeah. Do you have a favorite myth, maybe Icarus.

[F]

Just because I relate.

[B]

Have you ever flown too close to the sun?

[F]

Well, I guess you could consider just wanting to play sports. That. That might have. That might have done it. Just because all the political stuff that.

[B]

Is happening, they're trying to melt some wings.

[G]

Yeah.

[A]

Amber, when did you come out as trans?

[F]

The first time I came out as trans, it was in fifth grade. I told a friend of mine at the time, I think I'm a girl. I didn't have any other words to explain what I was feeling, but she told me, you'll always be a boy to me. And that ended up pushing me in the closet for two more years. And I came out to my family as trans halfway through seventh grade.

[D]

As a parent, I don't think it's the kind of thing you ever forget. She just said, you know, I think I'm transgender. And I just remember kind of going quiet and be like, uh, okay. And it was extremely difficult. You know, my husband and I both spent many, many, you know, times just kind of looking at each other with this, like, blank stare of, what do we do? What happens now? And, yeah, we hugged her. We love you, we said. And then going to bed at night and just crying yourself to sleep because. Not cause you didn't want a trans kid, but because we knew how much harder it would make her life.

[B]

When did it occur to you that you now out as a trans girl, needed to play these games again, that you needed to play sports?

[F]

I wanted to start playing in eighth grade, and it wasn't an option because I had already started to go through puberty. And there was policies in place through ohsaa, which stands for Ohio High School Athletic Association. Their policies stated that I had to. Either I had to be on hormone therapy for at least a year and. Or I had to have a doctor saying that I didn't have a biological advantage based on sex.

[B]

Like a physiological edge? Yeah, that was the rule.

[F]

And what does that mean?

[B]

What does it mean to be on hormones for you?

[F]

Yeah, it means. Well in my situation, because it's different for every trans person based on what they need medically or what their doctor prescribes. For me, it meant a testosterone suppressant and taking estradiol for a year.

[B]

And how do you take that?

[F]

I take that just via pills.

[B]

And how often do you have to take these pills or be on this regimen?

[F]

I have to take them twice a day. And it's like a whole, like nine pills.

[B]

That's a lot of pills.

[G]

Ever.

[B]

Yeah.

[F]

That's not the only thing I'm taking. But, like, altogether, the concoction is nine pills in the morning, nine pills at night.

[B]

The point being that in order to play sports.

[G]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not like you show up one day and say, no, hey, guys, I'm different now. And then they put you on the.

[F]

Girls team, which is what a lot of people think.

[B]

If you gave Brock Lesnar a sex change and put him in a dress, he's gonna run through every woman that's ever lived in the history of women.

[F]

That's what a lot of politicians have actually told me that they're afraid of, and that that's what they're trying to protect. And I'm like, great, that's not happening like that. That's just not a thing.

[B]

There's a. There's a commitment and investment of real time. Yes, that is. It seems like a hell of a long way if you're doing this as a stunt.

[F]

And the important thing to realize is that people don't go on this stuff just so that they're able to play sports. They go on this stuff so that they fit their identity so that they can feel like themselves. If they get to play sports because of it, that's just an added bonus.

[B]

So you've been taking these pills, undergoing hormone therapy for a year leading into sophomore year.

[G]

Yes.

[B]

In order to play sports, and you.

[A]

Have to prove as a consequence that.

[B]

You don't have the biological, physical, physiological advantage.

[F]

Exactly.

[B]

How do you prove that?

[F]

Great question. They originally were asking for, like, muscle mass. How much your muscle index is your bone density, all this stuff. And my doctors were just like, I don't know how to do that.

[D]

I ended up being the one who was mostly interacting between going back and forth between the doctor and the compliance director at the state, going, well, the doctor doesn't know what you want. What do you want?

[F]

The doctors wrote them, wrote the OHSAA and were just like, hey, what? What? What do we do? A lot of doctors don't know what to do because there's so few trans kids in sports and trans people in sports.

[D]

She had to submit all the blood work showing her testosterone levels, showing her estrogen levels, showing her height and her weight and how long she'd been at those levels and all her growth, growth charts.

[F]

It was incredibly invasive. And ultimately, it just creates the feeling of just like, they don't view me as a real girl, per se.

[B]

But the point being, taking all of that into consideration, that this is how badly you wanted to do this. This is how badly you wanted to be on this team, playing this game, is that you subjected yourself willingly to a regimen of rules that, as invasive as they were, you also understood, if this is the price that I need to pay to be on the team, that I actually identify with that.

[G]

Yeah.

[B]

That I want to be on. That I deserve to be on. I will do this.

[G]

Yeah.

[B]

And so when you finally got approval, what was that like? Do you remember that? What was that moment?

[G]

Yeah.

[F]

So that would have been sophomore year. I was in my room totally doing homework.

[B]

As one does.

[F]

Yes, absolutely. When they're supposed to be doing.

[B]

Not playing with upwards of 30 lizards or snakes.

[F]

No, no, no, no, no. My mom comes into my room and she's crying, and I ask her what was wrong, and she told me that I had been approved to play. So I started crying and I showed.

[D]

Her the email, and we were both just bawling, just tears all down our faces. And, you know, I think it will always be one of the most affirming moments of her life. You know, this feeling of, I can be one of the girls.

[F]

And my brother walks in the room and he goes, what happened? Did someone die? I just look up at him and I say, the state agrees that I'm a girl, through sobs and just this giant grin.

[B]

When you think back on your first foray into playing on the girls team, was there a lot of drama?

[F]

No, not at all. The only drama was from this state.

[A]

Your teammates were so, like, a lot.

[B]

Of conversations are about. You're taking spots away from the real girls. Yeah, that's what the news is blaring.

[G]

Yeah.

[B]

And in reality, what happened in terms of their reaction, your teammates reaction to you joining?

[F]

When I came out to my most recent summer team this past summer, everyone got into a circle and we all went around your name, your grade, and a fun fact about you. And I was like, I am Verzelch. I am upcoming freshman in college and I am trans. Half of the facial expressions just like, okay, I'm gay. I didn't use that as my fun fact.

[B]

What are you.

[F]

Like, they were just like, okay, show off. Like, it was clearly. Like, it was weird. And they thought it was weird. Not that I was trans, but that I told them I was trans. Like, it was a big deal.

[B]

So they were not worried about job security when it came to their playing time. That was not their response.

[F]

Not even slightly.

[B]

So if the kids on the team didn't, they almost didn't care. Weren't impressed by the fact that you were Trans who did not want you to play softball?

[F]

Politicians. Exclusively politicians and mostly older male politicians.

[B]

What did they do?

[F]

Uh, they are doing their damn best to make it illegal for me to play.

[B]

There's a nationwide effort to save women's sports.

[F]

Conservative lawmakers have introduced bills in 30 states that would prevent transgender athletes from participating in girls sports. And the governor of Arkansas just signed a bill into law there. So actually it was two months after I was approved to play, two months after I was in my mom's crying tears of joy because the state of Ohio said that I was a girl, I could play with the girls. The Ohio State House introduced a bill that would make it illegal for. For me to play.

[A]

And that bill, by the way, first introduced in 2021, was named the Save Women's Sports Act.

[D]

The Save Women's Sports act is a fairness issue for women to be able to achieve their dreams and athletics in our state and is crucial to preserving women's rights and the integrity of women's and girl sports.

[A]

Which meant banning trans girls from joining girls teams specifically.

[B]

And that felt how personal to you.

[F]

At the time? It didn't feel extremely personal. It was just like, ah, fear. Which made sense. I was aware that people are afraid of what they don't understand. Like the same exact thing with my animals. Like you don't understand it. So it's scary. And I get that to some extent it's a defense mechanism, it's for safety. But then I found out that at the time, I was the only high school trans female athlete in Ohio that had been approved to play. The only one.

[B]

The population they were concerned about, the people who they saw as threatening sports and their girls.

[G]

Yes.

[B]

Was literally just you.

[G]

Yes.

[B]

Do you think that they knew that you were the only one? Do you think they know? Did they know your name at the time?

[F]

They didn't. They probably didn't even know I was the only one. But when I started advocacy work, I made sure that they knew that was an immediate thing that I would tell politicians when I had one on one conversations, I would be like, so we're very clear, this is a law directed exclusively at me right now, which is.

[B]

A remarkable thing in terms of the presumed size of this population. Like, the threat is everywhere.

[A]

They're coming for your girls, they're coming.

[B]

For their scholarships, they're coming for all this stuff.

[G]

Yeah.

[B]

And the entire state, again, was organized against one trans girl, which was you.

[G]

Yes.

[B]

What was it like to go to the State House and speak up and actually challenge authority in person?

[F]

It's. I've had to do it multiple times, and every time it's not enjoyable. It's not exciting. It's not, oh, wow.

[B]

This is not the movie version that I would imagine.

[F]

It's demeaning, and it's horrifically painful to have to look up at people who are in these big chairs above you and essentially plead to them to not take away your rights.

[H]

Thank you for the opportunity to testify in opposition to House Bill 6 that would ban transgender girls from playing sports. My name is Ember, and I use she, they, pronouns. Being a trans athlete isn't easy. People I have never met have suggested that I have, that I became trans just to do better in sports. Why would I become trans in order to have. To have to fight every day for my right just to be perceived as who I am? Justifying my existence to strangers is not something I enjoy.

[F]

Last time I testified against a trans athlete ban, the committee was not listening. They were actively talking to each other and whispering to each other during my testimony. I do not care anymore about educating them because it's clear that they don't care to listen. It's clear that they don't want to be educated. They don't want to be knowledgeable. They just want to have power.

[B]

Give me a sense of, like, the people on the other side of the issue here. How would you characterize what their arguments were?

[F]

There are some people who do really think that their stance is to protect girls. There are some people that truly believe that. But I also know that the vast majority of people, if they have done any research, realize that that's not what's happening, realize that it's mostly just politicians that are trying to incite fear, those fears.

[B]

It was somewhat startling for me to go through some of the tape of these congressional hearings in Ohio and to see that it often went into the realm of, I'll put it generously, the metaphysical. Like this was stuff about spiritual concerns, religious concerns, concerns about demons. Literally.

[G]

Yes.

[F]

That is actually something that someone said.

[B]

Yeah, I want to play that video for you.

[F]

Oh, that's fun. We call him demon dude.

[A]

Well, demon dude, there's a thing about.

[B]

Demon dude that is important because you're not exaggerating.

[F]

No.

[C]

The only thing that makes sense for what's going on in this country is that demons are influencing people, allowing their bodies to be possessed to run satanic agendas. People that are possessed by demons don't get to make demonic agendas and demonic doctrines that affect our people and our children and our laws in Our country.

[B]

Thank you very much for being with us and sharing your testimony today. That's pretty literal.

[G]

Yeah.

[F]

No, he fully believes that there are demons possessing people.

[B]

And so, I guess journalistically, I have to ask if you, Ember Zelch, are possessed by a demon?

[F]

I mean, if I am, I am not aware of it.

[B]

That's what a person possessed by a demon would say.

[F]

Yeah, yeah, I'm a pretty empathetic demon. If I'm a demon, I feel like.

[B]

You'Ve established on the record that you are, if anything, a nymph who loves playing games.

[G]

Yeah.

[B]

What have been some of the justifications for why these representatives are so impassioned and so worried about girls like Ember?

[D]

So they will flat out lie. We had a situation just at one of our hearings a couple of months ago, Representative Williams.

[B]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, first, I've met with the Department of Education.

[C]

There's been countless complaints filed in regards.

[B]

To the trans policy. The department has confirmed that.

[D]

So a friend of mine who actually came to the State House with us and ended up testifying at the athlete ban hearings did a deep dive into the topic when there was. One of the representatives said that there were countless complaints against trans athletes, and she found that there were zero. She had multiple email exchanges with the athletic association, and they said, no, there have been zero complaints against transgender athletes in this state.

[A]

And I should also note that we cross checked this here at Pablo Torre finds out.

[B]

We looked into those multiple email exchanges.

[A]

And yeah, the Ohio High School Athletic association says in writing that there have been zero filed complaints against any trans students who've been approved to compete to date their compliance director actually counted. And so we then reached out to Representative Josh Williams to tape an interview, because zero complaints filed is the opposite of countless complaints filed, as he said. And also I wanted to know what he really knew about the experiences of the trans girls he represents in his own state. But Representative Williams declined. And so here's a bit more of what Ember Zelch, backup catcher on her high school softball team, tried to tell the government herself in her testimony.

[H]

Playing on a girls team has been an incredible experience for me. I have made so many friends and improved so much despite starting so late. My teammates treat me just like anyone else on the team. So do my coaches. My teams are part of my family. We are all so different and from and come from different cliques. But when we are together on the field, we are there for each other, no matter what. Every kid should be lucky enough to have that experience.

[A]

But when it comes to saving women's sports, like actually supporting women's sports. Ember did have something else that she wanted to say.

[B]

What was your experience like on the girls team? What did the facilities look like?

[F]

Almost every field was crap, for lack of better description. They were. They were falling apart half the time. They were flooded, muddy, not upkept at all. My team's field is the elementary school field. Our baseball teams, varsity and junior varsity, had two fields, both of them at the high school. They could simply walk outside for a game or a practice. My team had to get on a bus to go to our field. Not for a away game, to our home game.

[B]

Wait, wait, wait. So you needed to take a bus to the field?

[G]

Yes.

[B]

In order to do the most basic thing.

[G]

Yes.

[B]

And did you ever hear any of these politicians advocates on not. Yeah, not once. It just sounds like a giant cluster that there is just an endless stream, it sounds like, of legislation that. That you are being dared to fight. And I wonder if you've considered leaving for that reason.

[F]

Yeah, I am leaving. I am leaving for college. I received a $10,000 scholarship that's open for any school in state, in Ohio, and I am leaving that.

[B]

So you're leaving Ohio finally. And you're doing it because you feel like your well being, your fundamental well being is at risk if you remain. But what happens to your athletic aspirations here? You fought for this. And so what happens next for you with softball?

[F]

I have really had the amazing opportunity to be able to play in college. That is something that I'm able to do just because of all my incredible abilities that, you know, I. This is a secret. My parents don't even know. I actually got a scholarship to this school because of. Because of my athletic prowess that no one's ever seen.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. They're really good scouts.

[G]

Yes.

[F]

They sent some scouts for this Division 3 school and they saw, oh, that girl on the bench, the one that's keeping the seat warm with the blanket around her because it's cold and she's.

[B]

Not holding boa constrictors. Yeah.

[F]

She's not keeping warm because she's not playing. We want her on our team. Yes, that one.

[B]

Yeah.

[F]

With the colorful hair.

[B]

Yeah. But for real, though, you want to keep playing?

[G]

Yes.

[A]

Despite all of it. Ember, this sounds crazy to me on.

[B]

Just some basic level. You've sat down here with me and you've told me of all of the ways in which this has been this mythological test of your fortitude, and you're like, I'm going to keep at it. I want to keep doing this.

[A]

Why.

[F]

On the field I can put away all the bull, all this legislation, scholarships, all these thoughts constantly racing around in my head, all this struggle. I can set that aside on the field and I can join this group of people who understand my desire to just want to be part of a team, to just want to be in this group, to just be ourselves and to forget about all the other bull for just an hour and a half. That's why it's worth it to me to keep going through all these tests, to keep dealing with the I ideology that I am some monster in order to still just be able to be myself and forget about life for just a little bit.

[B]

I should confess here, Ember, that I'm not very good at sports either.

[F]

Really?

[B]

Well, yes, Shockingly, I know for the audience I'm very jacked. I'm the John Cena of Meadowlark media. But what you just said was beautiful because is why I've always loved sports too. It's the idea that I'm not trying to be the best. I'm trying to have a good time with my friends. And I feel like when I cover sports, the reason I loved. One of the reasons I loved talking to you is because the big picture of sports is so much more vast than the elite athletes and the LeBron James's, the Olympians. It's about people who will never play beyond at best, D3 softball. Just like being about this life, seeing the value in it. And it occurs to me that you are, through this whole odyssey, you're kind of a star like you're. But you've been a voice, a face for this, for your community, not just your team, but also for trans girls. And what does it feel like to be a public person having done interviews, been again talking to Congress for something that's not actually about, you know, your back of the baseball card stats.

[F]

I hate it. I'm not even joking. I've made a lot of sarcastic jokes throughout this whole thing. I truly hate it. I don't want to be the center of focus. I don't want to have to testify. It sucks. I don't want that. I hate interviews. I'm an introvert. I would much rather be hanging out with my partner. I'd much rather be playing a game. I'd much rather be be watching some obscure movie or show. I'd much rather be doing any of those things. I'd much rather be reading a book. And I'm dyslexic.

[B]

It does occur to me, too, that, like so much of what you're describing is fundamentally the desire to blend in, to not be spotlit. And that is also another way in which trans athletes have. Trans people in general have been presented is they want to put everything in your face.

[G]

Yeah.

[B]

They want to change the things you love, ruin them, because they can't stop being loud and proud in front of you. And you are telling me that you want as many Twitter followers as you have home runs.

[F]

Hopefully there'll be at least one Twitter follower next year. Then I want at least one home run. But, yeah, I don't want attention. I don't want any of this. I don't want to be the weird kid that has a camera on their face. Talking to you is honestly the best interview I've had, but it still sucks.

[B]

I, I, I feel you, Ember. Thank you very much for taking the time to do something that admittedly sucks, but I think means a lot to a lot of people.

[F]

I'd say, of course, but so as.

[A]

I sit down in front of my keyboard and reflect on what it is that I found out today, I am blown away by how obvious it is now that the single most exaggerated campaign issue, the single most exaggerated fear in American life is the fear of trans girls invading women's sports. Something that cable news and politicians cannot stop selling us as this huge, pressing concern. And I do get that there are concerns here. I do get that there are real competitive advantages to going through male puberty, like height, for instance, can never be undone. We should be honest about these things. But I also believe that the biggest advantage there is testosterone. And that can and should be regulated by rule. I believe that this is a reasonable policy if done reasonably. But what I am blown away by is just how clear it is that inside that tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny population of trans kids, population that statistically you will never even meet, they are not all Lia Thomas. They are not. They're not coming for your scholarships and opportunities and trophies. They're benchwarmers, too. They're teenagers who just want to be on a team where they belong. They are Ember Zelch, in so many words, just not that good at sports. And just like us human beings who deserve the right to be completely mediocre at the thing they love. And that's why today, in the end, what I found out is so clear to me, and this is a regret that I have. Thinking back on how my interview with Ember went, hearing about all of the metaphors and symbols that we discussed, what I found out is that I really, really should have been brave enough to hold that boa constrictor. This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out.

[B]

A Meadowlark Media Production and I'll talk.

[A]

To you next time.

[F]

It.