Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode: "This (Independent) Senator Has a Warning. Who Will Listen?"

Date: April 22, 2025

Host: Pablo Torre
Guest: Senator Angus King (I-ME), with interspersed commentary and archival audio

Overview

In this urgent, characteristically witty episode, Pablo Torre sits down with Senator Angus King of Maine, U.S. Senate’s best-known Independent, to grapple with one central question: Is the foundational structure of American government being dangerously eroded before our eyes—and who still has the will (or the power) to stop it? Leveraging King’s four decades as a fiercely unaffiliated politician and his unapologetic sports fandom, Torre draws out the senator’s warnings about presidential overreach, congressional inertia, the dangers of unchecked executive power, and the real-world consequences for the American people. The discussion is as civic-minded as it is accessible, complete with sports metaphors, pop culture, and King’s famous Veg-O-Matic demonstration of separation of powers.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Senator King: Politics, Sports, and Independence

• Personal Background & Independence
  • King’s intro as a former PBS host, Maine governor, Bowdoin professor, and now a senator—always as an Independent (03:02–04:23).
  • “I've been an independent for 35 or 40 years. ...It was a big advantage because I could appoint people whoever I thought was best for the job rather than a member of one or the other of the parties.” (03:54)
• Leadership Lessons from Sports
  • King taught a class on leadership using Belichick and Parcells as exemplars; ties NFL team success to institutional leadership, not just talent (06:04–07:30).
  • “The key thing is how is the institution led. The Washington Commanders… had terrible leadership for 25 years with Dan Snyder… New owners came in, new general manager, new coach… They changed the whole culture.” (06:50)

Constitutional Peril: The Veg-O-Matic of Power (08:41–12:55)

• King’s Signature Separation of Powers Demo:
  • Uses a Veg-O-Matic to illustrate the genius of the framers—dividing power across institutions (09:00–11:28).
  • “The Constitution is the vegematic of power.” (10:25)
  • “Now the lever is jammed.” (11:29)
• Historical Context and Acute Warning:
  • Human nature, Madison’s warning, Roman “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”—who guards the guardians? (11:28)
  • Congress is abdicating power; executive is usurping more (12:24).
  • “I don’t care if the Archangel Gabriel is the president. It’s just dangerous.” (12:41)

How Dire is It? A Direct Assault on the Constitution (13:22–16:06)

• King states with gravity:
  • “It’s the most direct assault on the Constitution in the history of this country. ...Those who are cheering on this president… are ignoring the way he’s doing it.” (13:33)
• Explains how Article II actually grants little unilateral power:
  • “He only has one and a half unilateral powers. The one is pardons… The other is commander in chief… But even that power is circumscribed…” (14:47)

Specific Abuse: Executive Power Used as Political Cudgel (17:25–21:50)

• Case Study: Threatening Maine over Trans Athlete Policy
  • Presidential threats: “You better do it because you’re not going to get any federal funding at all if you don’t.” (18:13)
  • King calls it a “mafioso dynamic”: “Nice little state you have there. It would be a shame if something happened to it.” (18:28)
  • King notes punitive cuts to children’s programs, fishing support, over a dispute not about the underlying issue but about unchecked executive fiat (19:49–21:50).
• Notable Quote:
  • “He almost said—I am the law. He caught himself and said, we are the law… He’s not the law. Congress makes the laws.” (19:03–19:16)

Immigration, Due Process, and American Values (22:14–25:02)

• Deportation Error:
  • Talks about Abreu Garcia, a legal U.S. resident mistakenly deported, Supreme Court orders return (22:14–22:45).
  • “Regardless, he is still entitled to due process. This should be shocking, not only to judges, but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans… hold dear.” (23:04, quoting Judge Wilkinson)
• Slide Toward ‘Un-American’ Governance:
  • Torre: “Even if you agree… it’s merely about how we have the conversations through our system. ...It’s the utter trashing of the process.” (24:00)

The Guardrails: Congress, Courts, and The People (25:02–29:12)

• Congressional Abdication:
  • King says Congress could limit tariff power, block nominees, but isn’t acting (25:02).
  • “The Congress needs to step up. ...The ultimate power of the people is in elections. And we don’t have an election for 19 months. I don’t think we have 19 months. We could be past a point of no return.” (28:07)
• Senator’s Oath and Citizen Rights:
  • “Our fundamental responsibility as members of Congress… is to defend the Constitution. ...Right now, it’s the Constitution that’s being undermined.” (28:40)
  • Reminds of the “First they came…” warning (28:57)

Why Don’t More in Power Object? Fear and Party Loyalty (29:12–36:38)

• White House Isolation & Groupthink:
  • “He doesn’t seem to have anybody around him who will tell him no… If you and I agree all the time, one of us isn’t necessary.” (29:34)
• Is It Malice or Incompetence?
  • King: “A little of both.”
  • “Elon Musk, for example, really enjoys firing people. ...They’re firing people that they have to rehire two or three days later. ...Now it appears that they really are trying in a subterfuge way of destroying Social Security…” (31:12)
• Party Loyalty Over Institutional Loyalty:
  • The Framers didn’t anticipate parties would overpower institutional self-interest (34:08).
  • Rumors of White House threats: “If you buck us, we will primary you. ...Musk will pay for it. ...It’s legitimate fear.” (35:05)
• Senators Know Better but Rationalize:
  • “Many of them know that this is dangerous, but rationalization is very powerful. ...One of the most common refrains I hear is, ‘Yeah, this is dangerous, but the courts will take care of it.’” (32:57)

Polarization, Misinformation, and the Erosion of Facts (36:38–39:08)

• King’s Anecdote:
  • “People are now seeking confirmation, not information.” (37:00)
  • On the impact: “We have people living in different factual universes.” (36:55)
• Misinformation around Immigration and Crime:
  • “The data shows that immigrants actually have a lower crime rate than native born Americans. ...But if that’s the case, then the premise is not correct.” (37:50–38:33)

A Civic Pep Talk—And a Sports Metaphor (39:08–41:45)

• On Hope and Responsibility:
  • Pablo muses: “I grew up considering without question the United States as a fundamentally great organization. And now I do worry that we are the Washington Wizards or the pre-Dan Snyder Washington football team.” (39:55)
  • King: “To go back to what I’ve said a hundred times, it’s dangerous. And it’s dangerous for everybody.” (40:28)
• Belichick and ‘Do Your Job’:
  • “...just do our jobs.” (40:49)
  • Torre: “Sometimes you just gotta go to the vegetables themselves.” (41:15)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|-------|---------| | 00:06 | "You've got to have people in your circle who are empowered to. And in fact, in my case, required to tell you when you're full of." | Sen. Angus King | | 10:25 | "The Constitution is the vegematic of power." | Sen. Angus King | | 13:33 | "I think it's the most direct assault on the Constitution in the history of this country. I think it's...grave danger." | Sen. Angus King | | 14:47 | "It gives the President practically no power. He only has one and a half unilateral powers. The one is pardons..." | Sen. Angus King | | 19:03 | "Well, I'm. We are the federal law." | Interjecting Voice (Trump audio) | | 19:05 | "[Trump] almost said. He started to say, 'I am the law.' He caught himself and said, 'we are the law.'" | Sen. Angus King | | 25:02 | "...The ultimate power of the people is in elections. And we don’t have an election for 19 months. ...We could be past a point of no return." | Sen. Angus King | | 29:34 | "He doesn’t seem to have anybody around him who will tell him no...If you and I agree all the time, one of us isn’t necessary." | Sen. Angus King | | 31:12 | "Elon Musk, for example, really enjoys firing people. ...No remorse." | Sen. Angus King | | 34:08 | "What we have is party loyalty is trumping, excuse the term, institutional loyalty." | Sen. Angus King | | 37:00 | "People are now seeking confirmation, not information." | Sen. Angus King | | 40:49 | "Just do our jobs." | Sen. Angus King | | 41:45 | "If they pick up an edge rusher in free agency, the Washington commanders are going to be in the super bowl next year." | Sen. Angus King | | 41:47 | "Get. Can we get. Can we get the Senator? I'm reclaiming my time, Senator. I'm reclaiming my podcast. The Mick Jagger of senators. It's been a pleasure, Pablo." | Pablo Torre, closing joke |

Key Timestamps and Segments

• 00:00–04:54 — Torres and King’s rapport, King’s background, story of congressional independence
• 06:04–07:30 — Sports analogies: Belichick, Parcells, and the importance of leadership
• 08:41–12:55 — Constitution as Veg-O-Matic, power separation demo, foundational dangers
• 13:22–16:06 — Article II and the limits of executive power
• 17:25–21:50 — The Maine/trans athlete controversy; executive threat as “mafioso” politics
• 22:14–25:02 — Immigration, due process, Supreme Court intervention
• 25:02–29:12 — The failure of Congressional checks; fear of point of no return
• 29:12–36:38 — Malice or incompetence? The psychology and pressure inside the Senate
• 36:38–39:08 — Media, confirmation bias, and divergent “factual universes”
• 40:10–41:45 — Reflections, sports metaphors, “Do your job,” levity to finish

Podcast Tone and Takeaways

• Civic Alarm Bell: The episode is a forceful, plainspoken warning about constitutional breakdown, deeply rooted in King’s experience and sense of moral urgency.
• Accessible and Wry: Torre keeps the conversation lively and relatable, often detouring into sports, media, and pop culture without losing gravity.
• Memorable Visuals: King’s Veg-O-Matic metaphor stands out, as does the callback to Belichick's "Do your job."
• Personal & National Stakes: Both Torre and King bring in personal anecdotes, but always tie back to the broader American experiment and its fragility.
• Courage and Cynicism: King is frank about political fear and rationalization among colleagues—citing intimidation, party loyalty, and unchecked executive threats.
• Call to Civic Action: The ultimate message: defending the Constitution can’t wait for a distant election; it requires courage from Congress, courts, and citizens—now.