Podcast Summary: Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode: "This Is Goth Tennis: A Halloween Memoir"

Host: Pablo Torre

Guest: Mickey Dujay (PTFO Correspondent, Illustrator, Filmmaker)

Date: October 24, 2024

Overview

In this Halloween-themed episode, Pablo Torre is joined by his long-time friend and PTFO correspondent, Mickey Dujay, for a “talkumentary” that explores the intersection of adolescence, trauma, sports, and subculture. Through Mickey’s personal memoir—recently published in Racket magazine—listeners are taken on a journey into his high school years as a self-described "goth tennis" player in 1990s Detroit suburbia. The episode is a nuanced exploration of identity, pain, resilience, mentorship, and the communities that save us.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Origin Story: Goth Meets Tennis

• [01:06] Pablo introduces Mickey, referencing his past reported segments but highlighting that today’s story is especially personal—a memoir Mickey’s never shared publicly.

  "It's a story that I have never told publicly. It's something that I've carried with me for 27 years." (Mickey, 01:40)

• [02:28] Mickey reads a vivid excerpt from his memoir, painting a gothic, performative approach to high school tennis—chains, jewelry, and a raven-black mane—turning matches into “macabre performance art.”

Halloween & Early Identity

• [05:11] Discussion veers into the meaning of Halloween, with Pablo and Mickey sharing childhood costume photos (Mickey as Dracula, Pablo as a Care Bear), trading playful barbs about which costume is scarier.

  "If you're gonna go all the way. I don't know if Dracula was really..." (Mickey, 06:04)

• [06:22] Mickey describes growing up in suburban Detroit, noting how the city’s perpetual cloud layer and cultural output (8 Mile, Insane Clown Posse) contributed to a “gothic” childhood atmosphere.

On Family, Pain, and Artistic Escape

• [08:00] Mickey reveals the abuse he suffered at home—"My dad was very wild and very abusive. Every quality that I had was repulsive to him..."—and how self-expression and escape into art, goth culture, and tennis became survival mechanisms.
• Pablo points out how little he knew about these formative hardships, despite years of friendship.

Finding Community: The Goth Taxonomy

• [10:10] Mickey details his initiation into the art room’s goth subculture (“The toughest kids...were the gay goths”), led by Dale, lead singer of the band Seraphin.

  "The lyrics of his songs were so awesome. If you see me bleeding it's just my heart trying to cry Wearing the night just like skin I was the shadow's phantom so good." (Mickey, 10:54)

• [11:54] A humorous, affectionate “taxonomy” of goth types is given:
  • Military Goths: Combat boots and buckles, Danzig-esque.
  • Victorian Goths: Velvet, ruffles, canes—"Gary Oldman in Bram Stoker’s Dracula."
  • Fairy Goths: Elven ears, fantasy, wings—"Definitely could still be really effed up and dark, but a little bit more whimsical." (Mickey, 13:40)

Misconceptions About Goth Culture

• [14:55] Mickey corrects Pablo’s question on Satanic worship:

  "In my experience, all of the goths...were really sensitive people, artistic people who loved paintings and poetry and sharing things with one another...It's a real, loving subculture.” (Mickey, 15:19)

Tennis as Refuge and the Mentor Figure

• [16:12] Mickey introduces Larry Hart, the enigmatic and accepting tennis coach who welcomed a motley crew of misfits, nerds, and outcasts onto the team:

  "Larry had this great quality...he accepted anyone who wanted to come and play tennis." (Mickey, 18:26)

• [20:31] Larry’s mysterious past is hinted at—he surprises Mickey by being a Sisters of Mercy fan, momentarily bridging the divide between “goth” and “coach.”

The Goth Tennis Philosophy

• [22:44] Mickey describes rebuilding his game around “dark power” and endurance:

  "Develop an ability to hit 100 balls in a single rally...tolerating pain had become my superpower..." (Mickey, 25:14)

• [26:13] Pablo interjects: “It sounds unbelievably awful to play tennis against you.”
• Mickey expands:

  "I was really like an angel of death...we could do this the easy way or we could do this the hard way. But I'm walking out of here with the dub." (Mickey, 26:28)

Pain, Projection, and Winning Ugly

• [27:01] Mickey links his playing style to internalized pain and self-loathing:

  "I thought I was unworthy of love...I could now use this as some sort of twisted weapon to take my revenge on the world." (Mickey, 27:56)

• [29:25] Recounts an opponent punching a fence and bleeding from playing him: "Blood actually got all over the balls that we were using. And I remember thinking that was really cool." (Mickey, 30:05)

The Big Regional Match: Facing Grosse Pointe North

• [32:03] The storyline climaxes at the regional finals against the privileged, perennial winners.
• [33:17] Mickey narrates a tense final set and his surprising, emotional reckoning upon winning:

  "The shame that I felt...came from how I realized that so much of this twisted strategy that I was using was about...judging and projecting onto the type of person that he was, which in reality was not true at all." (Mickey, 34:04)

Lessons on Sportsmanship, Team, and Disappointment

• [36:10] States tournament: the underdog “Marauders” make it, but are quickly outclassed.
• [37:32] The team is caught partying (weed, cigarettes) and Larry, betrayed, kicks them all off:

  "Larry is someone who always preached living by a code. And the code was sportsmanship, but the code was also how you conduct yourself." (Mickey, 38:26)

• [41:30] Mickey alone apologizes, expressing genuine remorse to Larry.

  “I'm not here to be reinstated to the team, but I wanted to tell you that you deserved better than what we all did...” (Mickey, 41:57)

"Where Are They Now?"

• [43:11] Mickey shares updates on Dale (“bulk candy store...his entire back is covered in a tattoo of a drawing I did for him in high school”) (Mickey, 44:17).
• [44:57] Larry, who continued as his coach (“I played for Larry for two more years and had great seasons. We went to states another time.”), kept meticulous records:

  "I hold the single season double bagel record...I won 11 matches 6-0 6-0, man." (Mickey, 46:49)

The Final Lessons: What a Coach Gave

• [47:04] A graduation card from Larry is read aloud:

  “A coach can never make a great player of a youngster who isn't potentially great. But a coach can make a great competitor out of any child. And...coaches can make adults out of children. For a coach, the final score doesn't read so many points for my team, so many for theirs. Instead, it reads so many men and women out of so many boys and girls...” (Mickey, quoting Larry, 47:04)

• [48:00] Larry’s passing—private struggle with cancer, buried in his team sweatshirt and with a racket. Mickey reflects on how Larry’s acceptance as a coach helped shape him as both athlete and father.

  "So much of that attitude, that ethos, comes from Larry and the code, the coaching philosophy and the level of attention and care and tolerance that he showed all of us as a coach. So in that way, Larry Hart lives on." (Mickey, 49:27)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Goth Identity & Humor:
  "Most goths had an incredible sense of humor, which is...not exactly associated with the gothic way, but it's true." (Mickey, 15:19)

• On Tolerating Pain as a Superpower:
  "Tolerating pain had become my superpower. By the time the season started in April, I was ready to some kids up." (Mickey, 25:14)

• On Real Sportsmanship:
  "He did not sneer at me. He did not, you know, take the bait of any of my microaggressions. The shame...came from how I realized that so much of this twisted strategy that I was using was about...projecting onto the type of person that he was, which in reality was not true at all." (Mickey, 34:04)

• On Coaching’s True Measurement:
  "For a coach, the final score doesn't read so many points for my team, so many for theirs. Instead, it reads so many men and women out of so many boys and girls. And this is the score that is never published." (Mickey, quoting Larry, 47:04)

Timeline of Important Segments

• [01:06] — Introduction to Mickey & the memoir’s premise
• [02:28] — Excerpt: The performance art of goth tennis
• [06:22] — Growing up in gothic Detroit; family pain
• [10:10] — The taxonomy of goths and joining the art room clique
• [14:55] — Dispelling Satanic stereotypes
• [16:12] — Enter Larry Hart, the inclusive yet mysterious coach
• [20:31] — Discovering common ground with Larry through goth music
• [22:44] — Transformation into a “tennis angel of death,” training montage
• [29:25] — Most memorable, disturbing match (opponent bloodies hand)
• [33:17] — Regional finals: Victory and moral reckoning
• [37:32] — States: Team party, betrayal, and Larry’s reaction
• [41:57] — Mickey’s one-on-one apology
• [43:11] — Where are they now? Dale’s tattoo; Larry’s legacy
• [47:04] — Larry’s philosophy and influence on adult Mickey
• [48:00] — Larry’s passing and the episode’s final reflections

Tone & Language

The conversation blends Pablo’s signature warmth, curiosity, and humor with Mickey’s vulnerability, sharp wit, and gothic storytelling flair. The episode is rich in sensory detail, emotional candor, and self-deprecation, ultimately yielding a resonant, redemptive narrative about how even the oddest communities and mentors can shape us at our most fragile.

Closing Sentiment

"So much of that attitude, that ethos, comes from Larry and the code, the coaching philosophy and the level of attention and care and tolerance that he showed all of us as a coach. So in that way, Larry Hart lives on." (Mickey, 49:27)

Happy Halloween. Fade to black.