This Is Life Without Your Sense of Taste and Smell

Summary

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out
Episode: This Is Life Without Your Sense of Taste and Smell
Date: November 16, 2023
Host: Pablo Torre
Guest: David Samson

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Pablo Torre sits down with David Samson—former Miami Marlins president, podcast host, known Survivor contestant, and "remarkably candid human being"—to explore the deeply personal and unexpected consequences of losing the senses of taste and smell due to COVID-19 in early 2021. Through the lens of Samson’s distinctly intense, methodical approach to life, the discussion meanders from the impact on his routines and relationships to existential reflections and awkward culinary adventures. The episode culminates with a physical experiment involving some of the world’s hottest hot sauces.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. David Samson’s Life Philosophy & Happiness Test

• Samson shares his unique approach to self-contentment: he tests his happiness by asking if he’d rather trade lives or situations with someone else. If the answer is ever "yes," he changes something about his own situation.

  “Would I rather be in that person's chair or in my chair?... And whenever I answer no, it means I've got to make a change.” — David Samson [02:54]

2. Losing Taste and Smell—The Moment and Acceptance

• Samson recounts losing both senses on the day of President Biden’s inauguration, January 20, 2021, after testing positive for COVID. Though doctors assured him recovery would come in “three to five days,” it’s now been nearly three years.
• His discovery was mundane—he noticed his cologne "smelled off," googled “does cologne expire,” and only later realized in the doctor’s office that he had lost the senses altogether.

  “Three to five days, what's the difference? And that was January of 21, and now it's been... coming on three years.” — Samson [07:43]

3. Adaptation and Routine—From Denial to Acceptance

• Initially, Samson thought the loss temporary, making “temporary adjustments”—including testing jelly beans to distinguish flavors (spoiler: he couldn’t), and eating only healthy foods, figuring he could optimize his diet if pleasure from taste was gone. But, he missed the normalcy of social eating and treats.

• After a period of frustration—especially when meals disappointed regardless of location—Samson acknowledges he’s learned to "trick himself" into remembering or imagining flavors from memory, living in a “culinary arrested development” where only foods he already knows can have subjective taste.

  “Now my brain literally tells me what I'm eating and tells me what it's going to taste like as a reminder of what it did taste like. So new food is not impactful.” — Samson [15:47]

4. Sensory Workarounds & Social Impact

• Samson compensates with texture and heat. He uses hot sauce liberally for the physical sensation (“my lifeline”). He warns chefs and companions in advance.
• He’s hyperaware of the impact on social dynamics—meals with friends or at elite restaurants (e.g., Jiro Sushi, three-star Michelin in Italy) no longer give him pleasure, and he pretends for the benefit of others.
• A comical and poignant clip: Girlfriend records him at an elite restaurant, guessing that a composed dish is "ice cream," when it is, in fact, "oyster compote and lamb carpaccio."

  "It's cold, like ice cream. What's the green? Jill, what's the green?" — Samson [21:56]
  “...I want to be a part of it. What is, what is it?... I want to feel something. Anything that you're eating.” — Samson [23:58]

5. Physical, Social, and Emotional Consequences

• Top Five Most Impactful Aspects:
  1. Fear of Being Alone Again: Loss of smell reignited childhood/adult anxieties about being alone and safe (“I’m constantly calling my doorman asking, 'do you smell that? Is something burning?'") [36:07].
  2. Loss of Connection: Food and smell were sources of intimacy and bonding—now replaced by seeking connection through other shared interests.
  3. Dependency with Dairy: Paranoia about spoiled dairy as he cannot “test” by smell, leading to restrictions when eating alone.
  4. Increased Social Awareness: Pays more attention to others' meal reactions, depending on them to simulate gustatory experiences.
  5. Lack of Discrimination: Unable to discern good/bad food, forced to focus on presentation, ambiance, and social cues rather than flavor.
• Thanksgiving and holidays are less affected, as for Samson, "family drama" always eclipsed culinary tradition.

6. Evolution of Preferences

• Samson’s lifelong affinity for black licorice jelly beans stems from being bullied; he learned to love what others wouldn't steal from him. He generalizes:

  “I'm not going to crave for what I don't have. I'm going to desire what I do have.” — Samson [39:28]

• He continues to eat foods he once loved, playing mental games, running “tests” during every meal hoping for recovery, but always landing in his comfort zone.

7. A Glimpse of Hope—and Disappointment

• Once, a whiff of a familiar bad odor led him to believe his sense of smell was returning, only to quickly realize it was fleeting.

  “I yelled, yahtzee. I'm back, baby. We celebrated, thinking, you're. You're done... But I went to the cologne... And I didn't smell it.” — Samson [43:07]

8. "Hot Ones" Challenge: Physical Proof

• In a playful experiment, Sean Evans from Hot Ones sends Pablo and David three extreme hot sauces (500,000 to over 2,000,000 Scoville units) to test David’s claim: he can’t taste, but he can feel heat.
  • Samson samples each generously, nonchalant and slightly despondent as Pablo reels.

  "Well, I couldn't tell the difference between any of them." — Samson [49:40]

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Notable Quotes and Moments (with Timestamps)

• Self-Contentment Test:

  “Would I rather be in that person's chair or in my chair...And whenever I answer no, it means I've got to make a change.” — Samson [02:54]

• Discovery of Loss:

  “Oh, the cologne is stale...so my first thought only was, this is not the normal cologne smell that I know I smell like. Obviously, there's something wrong with the cologne.” — Samson [06:16]

• Jelly Bean Test:

  “My biggest taste sensory issue is differentiating jelly beans between licorice jelly beans and cinnamon jelly beans. And that's the test I use to this day. To this day. I eat licorice and cinnamon jelly beans every day.” — Samson [08:24]

• Phantom Taste Buds:

  “You're feeling in the way that some people feel a phantom limb. You feel phantom taste buds as if they're still there as they used to be.” — Torre [15:17]

• Sushi and Culinary Casualties:

  “I can't tell the difference between salmon and tuna or eel or yellowtail or certain amazing umami...Which was everything. Everything now. Because now it's nothing.” — Samson [18:15]

• Culinary Performance:

  “What flavor is it? What flavor is the white stuff? It's cold, like ice cream cream. What's the green, Jill? ...What flavor?” — Samson, in Italy, guessing at a dish [21:56]

• Dependency on Hot Sauce:

  “Everything I do is spicy and I require it.” — Samson [14:36]
  “I'm not laughing. I'm sad... It's the opposite of laughter.” — Samson, after trying all the hot sauces [49:51]

• On Hope & Acceptance:

  “There’s nothing I can do. And one of the things you know about me is I don't spend much time on things I don't control. So I maximize what I can control, and then I control it." — Samson [42:05]

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Important Timestamps

• [04:23] Samson’s COVID diagnosis and immediate aftermath
• [07:43] Realization that taste/smell are not coming back; duration sinks in
• [11:14] On living without smell in NYC: "I don't smell urine...I don't smell weed..."
• [14:46] Trickery and compensation: relying on spice to “feel” something from food
• [21:56] Footage from elite restaurant in Italy, Samson fails to identify dishes
• [28:02] Top Five List of impacts by loss of taste/smell (detailed)
• [36:07] Fear of being alone resurges due to safety concerns
• [44:52] Hot Ones hot sauce experiment with Sean Evans’ sauces
• [49:40] "Well, I couldn't tell the difference between any of them."

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Tone & Speaker Dynamics

• The conversation is candid, often funny, frequently poignant. Samson’s dry humor and hyper-analytical style collide with Pablo’s incredulity and empathy.
• They share a camaraderie of mutual ribbing, but also vulnerability—especially as food, safety, and connection all become fraught, sometimes surreal, for Samson.
• Samson reveals haunting anxieties, and yet at every step, pivots to pragmatism and adaptation—sometimes with tinges of sadness or frustration.

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Conclusion: A Rich, Humorous, and Moving Exploration

This episode uses the story of one man’s lost senses as an unexpected window into adaptability, memory, identity, and the psychology of habit and pleasure. As David Samson says, it's about learning to “desire what I do have,” even as he mourns—and playfully tests—the missing parts. Whether or not Samson’s senses ever return, the episode is a testament to finding ways to connect, persevere, and still seek the small joys, however bizarre or bittersweet.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre. And today we're going to find out what this sound is.

[B]

I'm constantly calling my doorman and asking him to come to the apartment saying, do you smell that? Is something burning?

[A]

Right after this ad. You're listening to Giraffe Kings Network. Hello, David.

[B]

How are you, Pablo?

[A]

I'm good. I'm good. I've been waiting to do this for a very long time with you.

[B]

I have not been waiting as. As eagerly as you have. You had told me when you were first coming up with this show that you thought this would be a topic that interested you. And I told you that I'd be happy to tell you everything about it, but that it was not my favorite topic in the world to talk about.

[A]

Okay? So you should know that David Sampson, the former World Series champion, president of the Miami Marlins, is a remarkably candid human being. I can think of just so many of his personal admissions that would embarrass pretty much any other sports executive were they to become public. But not the case for the host of Nothing Personal, who perhaps not coincidentally, was also the very first person voted off on Survivor in 2014.

[B]

First person, but Survivor Cagayan. David, need to bring me your torch.

[A]

But this topic, this idea is different for David. This episode will actually be kind of dangerously personal, especially by the time we get to the very end. I had this idea for an episode before the show had launched, long before it. And I want to preface this by saying that we talk a lot, I think, more than people who listen to my show or your show might actually appreciate. And we have these conversations that are invariably pretty existential about everything. I mean, truly everything. The mundane, the infuriating, but also just how we feel about the way things are going. Things in this case, being like our lives. And you told me recently in a moment of, like, genuine sincerity, apropos of seemingly nothing, by the way, that you wouldn't trade your life for any other life in the world, which. Which staggered me.

[B]

That, to me, is. Is how I define. I. One of the problems I have is how I define my own happiness.

[A]

And.

[B]

And that's the test I use almost exclusively. Would I rather be in that person's chair or in my chair? Would I rather be in that situation or my situation? And whenever I answer no, it means I've got to make a change. So if I'm not happy where I am or not happy who I am, that is the impetus for change for me. And so the. The more times that I can say no, no. I'm happy exactly where I am, or I would not trade with you, you, you, or you. And this has nothing to do with running a baseball team. This is when I was in school. I felt the same way. I use the same test. This is when I was in law school. This is when I was on Wall Street. This is when I was alone in Europe for weeks and months at a time as a 25 year old, lonely in places where I didn't speak the language. I still always answered it the same way. And when I didn't, I knew that, all right, I got to do something different. So the answer is, yeah, I don't. I don't want to be anyone else but me.

[A]

And I am glad you're sitting in that specific chair today, because I am sitting in this chair to tell you that if I were you, I don't know if I would feel that way. You got Covid.

[B]

When I was. I tested positive the day Biden was inaugurated. January of 2021. Literally on inauguration day, man.

[A]

And on inauguration day, it was an exit day. It was for. For two very important aspects of your life. Your sense of smell and your sense of taste. And I have legitimately been unable to shake this thought from my head ever since I learned that you still don't have either.

[B]

What's the thought that you can't shake?

[A]

Holy. That sounds awful. How did you notice that smell and taste were gone?

[B]

So every day, shockingly, I have a routine.

[A]

People are gonna understand at the end of this episode how particular the details of your life have been orchestrated.

[B]

Well, they're orchestrated for efficiency purposes, and they're orchestrated to maximize the things that I like and to minimize the things that I don't like. And so, again, it's all under the umbrella of efficiency. So I hadn't been feeling well, but that never stopped me before. And back then, In January of 21, it was pre vaccine. You didn't really want to get Covid. There were refrigerator trucks on second Avenue full of dead people. Hospitals and funeral homes were overwhelmed. Bodies were actually piling up. Refrigerated trucks were brought in to store the bodies.

[A]

Literally true.

[B]

Literally true.

[A]

That's what was happening as a resident of First Avenue. It's all true.

[B]

Which is unreal to think about.

[A]

And by the way, part of the subplot of the story is like, Covid, there's some here that's different, and.

[B]

And I don't want to die of COVID I'm healthy. I was. I'm the one who had a Pulse oximeter on two fingers, checking every two minutes, checking my fever every two minutes. Always fine. With, with my lung capacity was always fine. Everything's fine. I just have fever, not feeling well. Test positive, of course, go to a doctor, confirm the test positive. And on the way to the doctor, I, my routine is shower, brush my teeth, brush my teeth while the shower is getting warm. Then deodorant, then a cologne. And I sprayed the cologne the way I do. I sprayed in front of me 12 inches. I spray twice and then I walk through it. That's why I put cologne on. And I said to myself, oh, the cologne is stale. And. And so my first thought only was, this is not the normal cologne smell that I know I smell like. Obviously there's something wrong with the cologne. And the bottle was more than half empty. And so I googled, does cologne expire? Because it's the only possible thing I thought of. And then I went to the doctor and got everything, got the test and was given the zinc and the this and the that, etc, and then I noticed that in fact I was not smelling anything because the doctor asked, have you lost your taste or smell? And then I realized at the doctor's office that I had told him, and he said, no problem, totally normal. Three to five days.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

So I didn't think anything of it. Three to five days, what's the difference? And that was January of 21, and now it's been were coming on three years. Jesus.

[A]

Jesus. Your reaction at the point at which I guess five days expire, six days go by, seven days go by. The sinking in of, oh, this is, this is, this is not, this is not coming back.

[B]

Oh, I didn't think that for months. So when it didn't come back in five days, I started to think about it and I started to adjust my life even in those five days, thinking they were temporary adjustments how? In terms of my expectations for food. So my biggest taste sensory issue is differentiating jelly beans between licorice jelly beans and cinnamon jelly beans. And that's the test I use to this day. To this day. I eat licorice and cinnamon jelly beans every day. Oh, my God.

[A]

And you're a guy who care for people who don't know the legend of, of how particular your habits are. You carry around a giant Ziploc bag of candy.

[B]

I do like candy.

[A]

And so the licorice versus cinnamon.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This is, this is a thing that you have access to, presumably. Yeah. You've had access to every day.

[B]

Every day. So I always have A inventory, and I can't tell the difference. And I don't want to jump too far ahead, but if you asked me for a top five list of the problem of not having taste or smell, it used to be number one. It is no longer number one, because now when I eat the jelly beans, I'm okay with not tasting the difference because I feel the jelly bean, but it used to be my number one until other things came up when you have no taste or smell that I realized are way more important than not knowing the difference in your jelly beans.

[A]

Okay, we're going to need that top five list, so hold tight to that. But your mind, it's very clear already, does not work the way I suspect that my mind would or most people's minds would, because my reaction truly as like, five days go by, days goodbye, seven days goodbye, would be, like me is like, how I would feel about all of this. And your reaction seems to be, it's time to adjust. It's time to adjust immediately. You're describing that.

[B]

So adjusting means this. It's when you're at a restaurant and you get angry because you think, wow, I. I didn't order correctly. Normally I order this dish, and it's fantastic. And something happened. The chef must not be here today because this food stinks. And what my brain did for the first year is it made me forget that I had no taste. And what it did is it made me think that I was getting bad food at restaurants for a year. And then I would be eating it, I'd be upset. I would say to who I was eating with is this. Do you like your dinner? And they would say, yes. And I would say, my dinner sucks. And then I'd say, oh, I have no taste. So it took about a year, I would say, for me not to go through. And sadly, I don't go through that exercise anymore. Now I go into meals knowing I'm not going to enjoy them. They're just meant as a gas station.

[A]

But, but, but. Just explain, though, when we say that you lost your sense of taste, you lost your sense of smell, how absolute is that description?

[B]

So it. It changes. The first year, it was pretty absolute. I can walk through New York City. Silver lining playbook. I don't smell urine.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I don't smell weed. I don't smell anything. Walking through New York City, which people complain about the bad smells. For me, it's no problem. All the things that you would say are bad, I can just power through and not have an issue with, yeah.

[A]

I've been reeking of weed and farting this entire time, and you've got nothing.

[B]

I have nothing. So I don't smell it. Now, the taste part. For the first couple weeks, I went on what I thought would be the most amazing diet. I only ate green food and kale.

[A]

This. So this is how I suspected you.

[B]

Would adjust, because I thought I'd become this perfectly in shape, amazingly healthy guy.

[A]

Yeah, you're optimizing.

[B]

I'd stop with candy.

[A]

Pleasure from taste and smell no longer factors into my hedonistic calculus. And so I'm gonna be better for it. I'm going to now become the healthiest man who's ever lived.

[B]

So it lasted two weeks because it made me too sad. Because when people would go out to pizza, I wanted to eat pizza or I wanted to have dessert. I love ice cream. I love candy. Yes. And so what I did is I just learned that I wouldn't know the difference between a pizza with onion or a pizza with pepperoni, which I don't eat. But I. I wouldn't be able to tell the difference in my jelly beans. I wouldn't know the difference in cookies, whether it's chocolate chip or chocolate chip with nut or macadamia or even oatmeal raisin. But I love the thought of having a cookie. And so I learned to love the thought.

[A]

And how social was that desire? Or how much of it was the. The I want to be around people who are doing normal things and feel normal, or how much of it was you and. Or you tricking yourself into, like, feeling the rhythms of the familiar.

[B]

So it started with me wanting to trick myself because I thought that I could will it back. That if I. If I look and I'm having pizza, I could taste pizza. And what I would do is I would do taste tests all the time. So I would close my eyes, I'd have two things, and I would try to identify what I was eating. So I would just have two cookies in front of me where I have a slice of pizza with two different things on it. And what I learned is I was reacting to hot. Hot sauce. Spicy. Because I felt. Always felt that in my nose.

[A]

So you felt the physical sensation of. Of. Of.

[B]

What's that spice?

[A]

The Scoville scale making you water or whatever your eyes water or whatever else.

[B]

It's like hot peppers. Exactly that. So you can feel the hot pepper, but you don't taste it. But. But you feel it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I learned to just add tons of hot sauce to everything. So I went On Amazon, bought these vats of hot sauce, and I just use it on all my food, which is insulting when there are chefs around.

[A]

And I'm cognizant of it.

[B]

So sometimes in nice restaurants or even at home, I have to say, by the way, I don't have any taste. I'm sorry. That's why I'm using hot sauce, because people get offended. Of course, when you ask for hot sauce at a Michelin restaurant, when you.

[A]

Dump out onto your plate as much that'll make you feel literally anything.

[B]

It. It's it in my eternal quest to feel, which permeates many parts of my personality.

[A]

Yeah, we don't have time for all of that today.

[B]

But feeling what the hot sauce does became my lifeline. It became everything I do is spicy and I require it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And if in terms of how it's changed over the last few years, what's changed is my brain now is tasting. So I love.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

It means that when I have a slice of pizza, I can enjoy the slice. I went through a period of time where I was angry and I didn't enjoy eating what I used to love to eat. And I am now at the point where I've tricked myself into thinking that I taste what I love. And so I love what I eat.

[A]

Fascinating.

[B]

And so I'm good.

[A]

You're feeling in the way that some people feel a phantom limb. You feel phantom taste buds as if they're still there as they used to be.

[B]

I love that I used to taste things that I thought I was eating and I wasn't eating them at all. And then my brain eliminated that, and now my brain literally tells me what I'm eating and tells me what it's going to taste like as a reminder of what it did taste like. So new food is not impactful.

[A]

That's so interesting.

[B]

So I can't try anything new because I won't know. I have no frame of reference.

[A]

So you are trapped in a culinary arrested development. That is exactly correct by your catalog of previous experiences, which wasn't.

[B]

I mean, I'm lucky. It's not that limited.

[A]

Well, this is. Okay, so let's, let's, let's establish here that you loved and still love going out to eat.

[B]

It's so irrational. No, well.

[A]

But it's under me too. Right? Like, I just think it's amazing that you, the guy who is of course carrying around you're double fisting pulse oximeters and you love a meal at a nice restaurant, and this befalls you Creature of the most consistent habits. And. And of course, your response is, I'm still. I'm still eating out.

[B]

I am going to live my life. But there has been some issues. So my favorite food used to be sushi. And I went to Jiro with Ichiro. We're talking the number one sushi restaurant in the world.

[A]

Jiro Dreams of sushi, of course. A famous documentary, the greatest.

[B]

And it's in a train station in Japan. Ichiro had it closed down just for him and a few of Marlin's executives when we signed him. And I've been there twice with him, and it was my favorite. And I don't mean to look at me, Louie. Now, I don't like sushi. And I just had sushi last night because Sunday night sushi with my sisters and I. It is. If you ask me what I'm angry about with no taste, no smell. I'm not angry that I can't smell flowers. It doesn't. I was never that. I was never a botanist. I don't mind that. I can't smell certain, like, people walk into cookie stores.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's a Chip City store right near.

[A]

Oh, sure. Bakery bakeries. Oh, so that's one of my favorite. If I. If I could pick a cologne, I would pick, like, freshly baked bread.

[B]

So people love that. And I used to. But I don't miss it. It is what it is. I walk into a bakery, and I don't smell anything, and it's fine. But I don't like sushi because the. The way that it feels in my mouth, I can't tell the difference between salmon and tuna or eel or yellowtail or certain amazing umami.

[A]

Subtle spectrum.

[B]

Yes. Which was everything.

[A]

Everything now.

[B]

Because now it's nothing. Right.

[A]

Stop putting hot sauce on.

[B]

I am wasabi.

[A]

Oh, man. Oh, yes.

[B]

That's what I do. I cover it with wasabi, which is insulting to every sushi chef in the world. And I eat it, but it doesn't feel good to me. So, for example, last night I had sushi for the first time in two months, and I used to go three times a week.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's been a casualty of this.

[A]

But it's remarkable that you're still. You're still out there taking swings.

[B]

How do you not? Well, have to.

[A]

But it's not just that, like, you're. You're trying to, like, you know, hit a single. I. I want to point out for everybody that you, over the summer, went to Italy on what can only be described as a culinary, like, Make a wish tour. If you like food and you have only so many days to live, you would go to the restaurant that you went to. Right. Where did you go? What restaurant was it?

[B]

So it's a. It's a three star Michelin restaurant. And I was there for a. For a Springsteen concert when he was on tour. And my girlfriend loves Michelin restaurants. And when we travel with people who love to eat well. And so we'll eat very casually once in a while and then save up and try to get a reservation at these crazy restaurants that you can't get reservations.

[A]

Best in the world.

[B]

Best in the world. That's the goal. There's a list of the best restaurants in the world and I would love to eat at all of them.

[A]

Yeah, same.

[B]

Just experience. Because it's an experience. And you know me, I love making memories. It is a memory. The problem is that I'm still doing these things and I'm not getting out of it what you should. And it's upsetting to the people I'm with.

[A]

Well, you can't smell or taste, David.

[B]

I know, but I want you to imagine you're with people who want to have this shared experience with you. And what they're doing at the end of every course is saying, let's rank these. This is the best thing I've ever had. This is the best thing I've ever had. And they look at me and they feel badly because I'm not enjoying it, but I'm pretending I am. And I want them to enjoy it. I want them to do their top fives. When there's a 16 course meal. Here's the top five courses. And I just sort of sit there and I pretend. But they know, because they love me and know me, that I'm not enjoying it.

[A]

But I still do it well, also because it's not that subtle. So. And I say this from journalistic, secondhand knowledge because you went to. I don't get the name of this restaurant right. You went to Modena, Italy, one of the food capitals of our planet. Yes, it is. What was the name of the restaurant you went to?

[B]

It's Casa de. Casa deluigi.

[A]

Casa Maria.

[B]

Casa Maria Luigi, I believe.

[A]

Some Louis, the most Italian thing you've ever imagined. We just wanted to have an opportunity to show what this particular corner of.

[B]

The world looks like, smells like, tastes.

[A]

Like, the joy of having you all in our home.

[B]

That is.

[A]

Massimo Botura.

[B]

That's the chef.

[A]

Yes. And I asked your girlfriend to help chronicle what you have just described. And she was kind enough to.

[B]

Did she send you videos?

[A]

Bring back footage if we can play, you know, play an example of what David means.

[B]

It tastes like ice cream. Some sort of ice cream. What flavor is it? What flavor is the white stuff? It's cold, like ice cream cream. What's the green, Jill? What's the green? What's the green? What flavor? That mortifies me.

[A]

No, but by the way, for the record, I went and found out what dish that was. Is this ice cream, and it was oyster compote and lamb carpaccio. Like you could not have been more off, unfortunately.

[B]

So that video, I, I'd forgotten about that. When you're in a restaurant like that, and now I'm doing that. Even at a lunch, when you're prepared something, you want to know what it is, because that helps inform my brain what I should be tasting. So what I do is when I see something orange, I'm assuming either squash or pumpkin. If I'm told it's squash, I'm going to taste squash. If I'm told it's pumpkin, I'll taste pumpkin. When people want to screw around with me, they'll tell me it's squash and it's pumpkin. And I'll say, my God, this is really good squash. Because for me, it's squash. If you tell me it's squash, as long as it passes the eye test, right? And the, the, the, the taste, the culture, the, the texture. Texture. If it passes the texture test, then it can be that. So it's an example with desserts, very commonly, I would not be able to tell the difference in the two types of ice creams, because if it looks like vanilla ice cream, I'm going to say it's vanilla ice cream. And then what you saw in that video, tough to watch a little bit. Even though I understand the privilege of it. It's. Everyone was having the time of their life and I kept saying, I want to be a part of it. What is, what is it?

[A]

What are you guys enjoying over there?

[B]

I want to feel something. Just me. Anything that you're eating. Because I. They wouldn't give you a menu?

[A]

No, because. Because it's a restaurant where the waiters are dressed in black tie.

[B]

It's. That's a Michelin three star restaurant. You don't order a la carte.

[A]

No, no. They're giving you what they want to give you.

[B]

That is correct.

[A]

And you are at the table feeling in one physical sense right there. And in the sensory sense, a million.

[B]

Miles away at a restaurant like that. You're surrounded. It's very small. And people are having the meal of their life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm watching them experience that. And all I'm doing in that video just reminded me how annoying I must be to be with. Because I keep saying, what is that? Like what? Tell me, talk me through it, what it tastes like. Yeah.

[A]

You want people to basically, not just.

[B]

They need to be my guide.

[A]

You want them to be a phone sex operator. Tell me what the food tastes like. Like, is it, is it, is it sweet? Is it, is it, is it oily?

[B]

So I don't use that tone because my tone is far more. During moments like that, I get more angry than anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So while I've come to grips with it, there are moments still. And you just saw an example of a moment where I'm frustrated by. By. So you'd think that would inform my desire not to be in those situations.

[A]

That was my next follow up thought.

[B]

And I have. I won't let myself do it. I'm not going to give in. I'm not going to give in and just eat at Applebee's. Nothing against Applebee's. If it's a sponsor. They're listening. But it's an example of any of the great restaurants that I like to go to that are. That are casual.

[A]

You don't want to compromise the life that you want to still live. Because I do not.

[B]

This has all the way from candy to a Michelin restaurant.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This isn't about the fact that I eat at Michelin restaurants every day. I eat candy every day. I eat turkey sandwiches every day like everybody else. But I just do it with. So my, my order with turkey is now turkey and jalapeno, of course. So I load it with jalapenos.

[A]

But I should point out truly that you still have preferences.

[B]

I want what I want what I used to like and that I will pretend I like again. So basically I just play games with myself. Meal time is game time where I just do different things. I'm doing every time we eat. I'm doing different tests with myself. You know, I'm a tester.

[A]

You are.

[B]

So I'm doing different tests. I'm doing food in different combinations. I'm just trying to see different sides of my mouth. Maybe the taste buds on my left are doing a little better today. So I'm trying things every day.

[A]

And so it's to the point. Your preferences, your desire to keep eating, your desire to live a life that is familiar to anybody who knew you before inauguration Day. It's gotten to the point where your. I should say your producer, Matthew Koca, some part of him, he said to me, wonders if this is like, is Stevie Wonder really blind? He was like, I can't say for sure that this is actually what's happening because he sees you and he's like, yeah, I don't know about that.

[B]

I'm adjusted. So what. What? I think the reason why he would react that way is maybe the reason why you react that way, which is you are envisioning what you would be doing in this situation, and that's what coke is doing. I assume the same thing, but again, you can't envision it until you do it, until it happens to you.

[A]

Your top five of. Of what? Is it stuff you miss or stuff you now actually appreciate more? Which. Which way does it go?

[B]

No, it's actually the way I view it. It's a top five of today. It's how do I feel both positive and negatively about having no taste or smell? Number five is the inability to be discerning, which is how I am in my Life to the 10th degree. And now I cannot discern from heaven. I can't tell if I'm at a Michelin restaurant or at a restaurant with five health code violations other than presentation. Now I look for all the things that really may not matter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or how are. How are people dressed? Who are the other clientele in the restaurant? And when you travel internationally, that's a real issue. Because the beautiful part about traveling is you go to holes in the wall. You go to places where there's only locals.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You try to stay away from the tourist traps.

[A]

Yeah. You kind of want a place that has a health code violation.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Vibe.

[B]

And. And you should be able to discern. Oh, that doesn't taste right.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm eating the best sushi in the world in a subway station.

[B]

Exactly. Number four, change in my life that has far, really, really interested me is I pay more attention to other people than I ever did during meal time because I'm taking cues off them in a way that I never used to. I am trying to figure out how you're feeling. So that will help inform how I ought to feel. Because I'm open to feeling either way. I'm open to saying, this restaurant sucks, or I'm open to saying it's the greatest restaurant ever, or that. That, wow, there's a problem here. Or not. But I need to get it from you.

[A]

You're collecting information that will then feed the computer of Your imagination.

[B]

It's. It's. And it's doing the math.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's the calculation. The. The number three thing that I miss terribly is that I can't eat dairy alone.

[A]

I don't understand.

[B]

Whenever you drink, put milk in your cereal or whenever you have cream cheese or when you have anything that's dairy. You're supposed to. I was taught and I do. You're supposed to smell it before eating it.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

In order to know whether it's sports.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I can't tell the difference. So when I'm alone, I don't permit myself to eat any dairy. And that bothers me because I want to, but I'm too scared to because the. The one test that I'm required to give prior to eating dairy and I. There are zero exceptions to this. So I don't care what the date says. I don't know. It doesn't matter. It's got to pass my test. And I can't give the test anymore. So not only can I not eat dairy alone, but now I'm dependent on other people to tell me it's okay. And I'm suspect of all of their judgment because most people don't care about an expiration date or a little curdle.

[A]

I am. I would be so. You are a mad king demanding to know whether he is being poisoned. And I would be the worst tester of food for you because I love a stank on my.

[B]

You just.

[A]

I'll eat a rind. The older the better, the sweatier the more delicious. I am not going to be helpful to you in that way.

[B]

You are not helpful to me in so many ways because you. Your gibish meter is extremely low. This is so what. So what you're doing is you are both showing me the yin to my yang.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But in areas where I need you to be more like me, you're not. And it impacts when we're together.

[A]

Right? Right. I am a poor substitute for your phantom limb.

[B]

That is exactly correct.

[A]

Number two.

[B]

The second thing that is the largest impact of losing your taste and smell is it has hurt my ability to connect with people who I love. Because I didn't realize prior how many people connect over smells and over taste. And I don't mean just over meals. I mean when you're walking, when you're going to apple picking or when you're going to pick out flowers or just when you're doing anything.

[A]

Smell of the air after rain.

[B]

All of those things were. Were a point of connection in certain relationships. I had. And what I've been forced to do is change. Because if you take that away, then if you're looking for 100 connection, you're down to 80, just like that. And if I want to get back to 100, it's forced me to find a different 20%. So what I've actually been able to do is enhance certain other connections through commonality of movies or books or politics or political discussions, things where we can say, oh, we have this in common, or we don't. But, hey, we're having a connection here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And what I'm doing constantly is trying to get to 100 with people, because I love. I love the connection. I need the connection. I crave the connection. And I don't crave halfway. I crave 100 connection.

[A]

You have an energy bar or you have a. A progress bar that you're trying to get to full green 100.

[B]

Always the amount of commonality, of interest you have with people over taste and smell.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you don't think about it now, but you at a meal or just walking through, walking in New York or going out to be with the people you work with when there's something. Oh, do you smell that? What I've been forced to do is try to replace it. And sometimes it comes off as clumsy or awkward because I'm still. It's only been a couple years, so, you know, this January will be three years. So I'm still working on that. And I'm used to it 55 years old. I'm still growing and evolving, but I've gotten pretty good at figuring myself out and what I need and what I need other people to do to help me with what I want to need. But this has been a new process, a new game, and I'm finding different parts about it every day still where I can do it better and be better.

[A]

Yeah. All right, so at the risk of. Of. Of. Of testing the very thing that you have just explained you're concerned about, what is the number one thing that you now have to reckon with as a result of this?

[B]

The number one thing in a landslide is that I'm now scared to be alone again. And I spent years, years trying to be alone. And I. I'm talking about when I had a wife and kids, little kids, and they would travel. When I would be alone in a house, I would hire someone to stay with me because I wouldn't be alone. When I went to hotels on the road with the Marlins, I slept with lights on, and I made sure that there Was someone in a connecting room.

[A]

Wait a minute, wait a minute.

[B]

This is all true.

[A]

So when you were home alone in your family home, you'd hire a nanny? Okay, I was gonna say that. That is the weirdest Craigslist ad I can imagine.

[B]

No, no, it's someone who worked for me but would not would knew that there's no days off when the kids are gone, even though that would normally be a time when you'd have a day off.

[A]

And so you just ask them to like hang out so we wouldn't be around.

[B]

Be around. Cuz I'd be scared. And I've worked through it and now I can be alone. Except since 2021 I'm back to scared to being alone cuz I can't smell. So in New York City as an example, I'm constantly calling my doorman and asking him to come to the apartment saying, do you smell that? Is something burning? I'm constantly checking in a way that is even worse than my normal ocd, checking to make sure the oven's off right, Making sure that the toaster oven is unplugged, checking things in an absurd way that if a camera were following me, I'm doing laps around the house, in the apartment to make sure. And it's a nightmare when you cannot smell. And so I don't want to be alone because I just don't know if something's going to happen. So I'll have the doorman come up. I'm talking not once, this is several times a week. Because I get the feeling in my brain, oh, there may be a, there may be a problem in this apartment. Something's on fire.

[A]

Right? Right. Your fear, the fear, that part of your brain that you had worked an entire life to manage for reasons that maybe one day we'll get into, but to the point of its sensitivity, not quite yet. You had managed that part well enough and now you feel that recurring again.

[B]

It basically, it's created an inefficiency. So I had it down pat in terms of how I did everything in the most efficient way, as you know. And now what the lack of taste and smell has done, it's created these interesting inefficiencies that I wouldn't have figured. And so I'm still forced to deal with that. Right. So the way I deal with it is having a doorman coming. The way I deal with it is I don't stay alone anymore. Which is a step backwards therapeutically, but it's a requirement. Do I wish that my taste and smell would Come back. Of course. But I. There's. What. What can I do other than wait and adjust and become more efficient at what I currently face?

[A]

There is no national occasion like Thanksgiving to enjoy taste and smell. What will that be like for you specifically?

[B]

Can I ask that a different way? Are there moments where I feel worse about having no taste and smell? And the answer is yes. But Thanksgiving is not one of them. Because for me, Thanksgiving has always been a. A, you're with family. Check the box, get it done. No drama, no fighting, make sure everyone cleans up. And that I can get back to what I want to do by Friday. Right. That's how I view Thanksgiving food.

[A]

Was never the lead of that story.

[B]

Was never the lead of that story.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm lucky in that way. I'm not a chef. I've spoken to chefs about this, and they acknowledged that they would lose their livelihood. It would. It's the equivalent of you.

[A]

If they lost smell and taste.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't be a chef and lose your smell and taste. And I couldn't do what I do if I lost my vocal cords. I'd have to find a different way to do it so I don't suffer in that way. But Thanksgiving for me was always a, oh, I got to deal with family stuff.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

There's things going on here that are far more important than, wow, that turkey smells nice. So I don't react to Thanksgiving the way you would think. There is no specific holiday that I view as food related, that I engage with differently. It's the. It's the smaller things, like my candy.

[A]

Yeah. So in terms of what you miss the most.

[B]

Easy. It's easy and I know it. And it sounds horrible. It's tasting a black licorice jelly bean. I can't tell you how much I love black licorice jelly beans. I cannot describe to you how I love black licorice jelly beans. I should say true love.

[A]

I should say right up front that I don't relate to that at all.

[B]

Many people don't gross. Do you know what started that? And I remember when it started in elementary school, I would get, this is not for you to feel sorry. This is just life. When you're small, you get bullied. It's not bullying like it is these.

[A]

This day and age for the podcast audience. David is small.

[B]

I'm small. And people would steal things from me at even a very nice private school in New York. What I learned, and this was the beginning of the brain. No one was stealing good and Plenty. Or black licorice jelly beans.

[A]

The saddest origin story.

[B]

It's a. But it's exactly. And I learned to love it and be okay, like, all right, you're, I'm not going to crave for what I don't have. I'm going to desire what I do have. And it turned into this amazing love story with black licorice that has lasted my whole life. Now it's gone.

[A]

So just to be very clear about this, because people were stealing the good candy, you adapted evolutionarily 100% to literally enjoy, to enjoy the taste of the bad candy.

[B]

The number one thing. There's a candy called Chuckles. There's five Chuckles in a box. There's an orange, there's a green, there's a yellow, there's a red, there's a black. No one wants the black. It's the one in the middle. They put in the middle on purpose because people eat the outsides first. They like the outside. I always say, fine, I'll take the black. Evolutionary. When I'm in a car, I call backseat middle. I'm small. I know I'm going to be put there anyway, so I learned to love it. Candy corn. Love it. 12 months a year, everyone.

[A]

Remarkable.

[B]

And it's always there. It's always available. So I get to enjoy things. And I don't make up that I enjoy them. I actually do.

[A]

That's the part that's as mind blowing as anything about anything we've talked about is the idea that you've actually authentically reconfigured your brain yourself, you, David Sampson, to like the things that others don't want. So that when you draft them with your number one overall pick, you feel like you got what I wanted.

[B]

And I, I always want to win, and so I win.

[A]

That's an amazing thing, man. That's an amazing thing.

[B]

It's quite true.

[A]

So how much, how much hope do you have left at the end here for getting back this, the senses that you have lost?

[B]

I don't think about it much. I, I, I read everything and listeners of Nothing Personal and I thank them so much. They send me articles and links and doctors in various places. It is being worked on. There will come a time when there will be a cure for this, I assume. And when it happens, it happens. Though what they're already saying is when you get it back, it may be totally different. And so I'm a little fearful in some ways if I get taste back and I don't like pizza. That's a Nightmare. But I. There's nothing I can do. And one of the things you know about me is I don't spend much time on things I don't control. So I maximize what I can control, and then I control it.

[A]

Well, that's the story of everything I talked about.

[B]

And this one I can't. So therefore, why would I long for a solution when I can fix today?

[A]

So what was the closest that you allowed yourself to come to as hope is concerned?

[B]

The first. There was a day when I was in bed. All of a sudden, it's unmistakable. I'm smelling. So I assume there's no animals in the house. I thought someone in the bed. That's the only explanation.

[A]

That was your first thought?

[B]

My first thought was, there is something that I need to not step in or lie.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Ye.

[B]

And I looked over, and Kara was just doing her thing. And I said, did you just fart? And she said, david, that's fantastic. You can smell again. Because she'd been doing it for months and months and months and months and getting away with it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And loving life that she could be in bed, you know, drop an ass. And I didn't care. And so now I smelled it again, and I yelled, yahtzee. I'm back, baby. We celebrated, thinking, you're. You're done. Yeah, you. You got. Got it back.

[A]

It's over.

[B]

It's over.

[A]

Our long national nightmare is over.

[B]

So I went right to the bathroom immediately, not to get the Febreze to spray the bed, which is what I did. Pre Covid.

[A]

Of course. Of course you would.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Very subtle.

[B]

I went to the cologne. My cologne.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I sprayed it, and I didn't smell it. And so I said, it's all right. This is step one. I was fine. I said, let's see what happens tomorrow. And so it was later that same night that Kara looked at me and she said, hey, how you doing? I said, fine. Why? She's like, you don't smell that, do you?

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Said, no. She said, all right. It's not back.

[A]

So in other words, you had neither smelt it nor dealt it. Nor dealt it. I'm afraid of what we're about to do here a little bit, David. Um, I've dragged you back into the studio. Uh, I've never done this before, any of the things we're about to do before. Um, because you said something on the episode that we just. Well, that the listeners just heard about how you don't taste or smell anything, but you feel. Hot sauce.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

And so here we are with a special message from a friend of Pablo Torre finds out. Hey, what's going on? David, this is Sean Evans, host of Hot Ones. Pablo reached out to me with an interesting problem, one that I've never faced before. He said that you cannot taste anything. So today, I guess we'll put that to the test. I've sent along three of the hottest sauces that we use on Hot Ones. Sauces that are in our 10 spot or nine spot or eight spots. So the tail end of the show, I'm just gonna wish you good luck. And remember to please be careful around the eyes.

[B]

Fantastic.

[A]

Context here. Thank you, Sean Evans, for that. The spiciness of these sauces is, of course, measured using the Scoville scale. That scale goes from zero to over 2 million heat units. Okay, so this is our gift to you. A gift that I realize only now in full, that I must also enjoy, unfortunately.

[B]

Two million.

[A]

Two million. So we have all these wings.

[B]

What does that mean?

[A]

Three of the hottest hot sauces. And I'll give you some numerical context, please. We can start. So please. This is the Bomb Evolution with Red Hot Chili Base. That is a 500,000 on the Scoville scale. And so we should start. We should start, David. We have our milk, we have our water. We have. We have fries, which are mostly decorative and taunting, but we have each a plate of three wings. And I think you should start with da Bomb Evolution.

[B]

Let me start with. I don't eat wings.

[A]

I love how the worst part of this whole exercise for you, of course, is not the hot sauce. It is. It is.

[B]

Where are the napkins?

[A]

We have paper towels here below. We have. We have a garbage can that you can barf into over on the side. Yep, that's that.

[B]

I got him. Thank you. All right, how much are we doing?

[A]

A healthy. A healthy. A healthy dab, as it were, on your wing. Yeah. Oh, my God. Like that? That's more than healthy. I think it might be too much, honestly.

[B]

But wait, is this the hottest or the least?

[A]

No, this is merely 500,000 on the Scoville.

[B]

So that's the least hot.

[A]

That's the least hot. Worst. This is the starter. This is the appetizer.

[B]

Does it smell to you?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

No.

[A]

All right, let's go for it.

[B]

So just eat it.

[A]

Yep, immediately. Immediately. Like opening. I know there are pores on my tongue, but they're all open now.

[B]

Okay. Does the sauce feel chewy? Does the wing feel chewy to you? That's really what I'm Focused on.

[A]

You're like, are they pranking me by now? It's getting okay.

[B]

So here's where I am right now.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

That wing was chewy. Right? Like, that's all right.

[A]

All right, next. All right, number.

[B]

Number.

[A]

Jesus Christ. Hellfire cranked hot sauce. Extreme Black Garlic Reaper cranked with a K. 699,000 on the Scoville scale. Okay, don't touch your eyes. This is. There's a face of an evil man.

[B]

I need.

[A]

I need some milk.

[B]

Have those glasses been washed ever?

[A]

I don't care.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

I don't care at this point.

[B]

Is that enough? Do you want. How much would you like?

[A]

That's so much more than.

[B]

Is that more than you're ever going to put on? Okay.

[A]

All right. Hellfire crank.

[B]

I'm actually hungry.

[A]

It's David Sampson making a mockery of this entire premise.

[B]

Okay, we're doing this.

[A]

Hellfire crank. Tod sauce. 699, 000 on Scoville scale.

[B]

That's a better wing.

[A]

Okay. David's mouth is stained with 699,000 Scoville heat units.

[B]

What this is actually doing is depressing me a little more than I would like to feel.

[A]

Last dab. We have a minute left. David.

[B]

Oh, I'm okay. Here we go. Ready? Is this the hot one?

[A]

Yeah. Over 2 million. The last stab pepper X. Over 2 million on the Scoville scale. You have 35 seconds to tell me what that is.

[B]

Is that enough? Is this enough?

[A]

In no way am I gonna try this. Oh, my God.

[B]

Well, I couldn't tell the difference between any of them.

[A]

The hottest hot sauces on hot ones. David Sampson laughs, and I'm literally crying.

[B]

I'm not laughing. I'm sad.

[A]

Oh, right.

[B]

It's the opposite of laughter.

[A]

David, thank you for doing the show.

[B]

Yeah, see you later.

[A]

Oh, my God, I'm going to barf. This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production, and I'll talk to you next time.