← Pablo Torre Finds Out
Pablo Torre Finds Out
We Visited Death Row for the Super Bowl. You Can Help Save This Fan's Life.
00:58:48
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- [00:01]
Pablo Torre
Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out I am Pablo Torre and today we're gonna find out what this sound is.
- [00:08]
Charles Don Flores
Sooner or later the truth's gonna come out and I'm gonna have that opportunity to see life after this, right after.
- [00:22]
Pablo Torre
This Ad On Deck is built to back small businesses like yours.
- [00:29]
Charles Don Flores
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- [00:31]
Pablo Torre
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- [00:38]
Charles Don Flores
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- [00:40]
Pablo Torre
Pilot reviews Ondeck delivers funding you can count on.
- [00:43]
Charles Don Flores
Apply in minutes@ondeck.com depending on certain loan attributes. Your business loan may be issued by.
- [00:48]
Pablo Torre
Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. Lunch was great, but this traffic is awful. Can we stop at a bathroom?
- [00:58]
Charles Don Flores
Are you alright?
- [00:58]
Pablo Torre
And keep having stomach issues after eating, like diarrhea, gas and bloating, abdominal pain and sometime oily stools.
- [01:05]
Charles Don Flores
Sound familiar? Those stomach issues may actually be a pancreas issue called exocrine pancreatic insufficiency, or epi. Creon may help manage epi. Creon is a prescription medicine used to treat people who can't digest food normally.
- [01:19]
Pablo Torre
Because their pancreas doesn't make enough enzymes. Creon may increase your chance of fibrosing colonopathy, a rare bowel disorder. Tell your doctor if you have a history of intestinal blockage or scarring or thickening of your bowel wall, if you.
- [01:28]
Charles Don Flores
Are allergic to pork or if you have gout, kidney problems or worsening of painful, swollen joints.
- [01:32]
Pablo Torre
Call your doctor if you have any unusual or severe gastrointestinal symptoms or allergic react. Take Creon as directed by your doctor.
- [01:37]
Charles Don Flores
And always with food.
- [01:38]
Pablo Torre
Do not chew capsules as this may cause mouth irritation. Other side effects may include blood sugar.
- [01:41]
Charles Don Flores
Changes, gas, dizziness, sore throat and cough.
- [01:43]
Pablo Torre
These are not all the side effects of Creon. Call 800-633-9110 or visit creoninfo.com to learn more.
- [01:48]
Charles Don Flores
That's C-E O N info.com I'm asking.
- [01:50]
Pablo Torre
My doctor about EPI and if Creon could help ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. If you think of Canada as polite.
- [02:05]
Gretchen Swen
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- [02:17]
Pablo Torre
Stories behind the shocking headlines from your neighbours to the north. I'm Kristi Lee over 200 episodes and 75 million downloads.
- [02:26]
Gretchen Swen
I've taken listeners through some of the.
- [02:28]
Pablo Torre
Most disturbing crime stories from the country I call home.
- [02:31]
Gretchen Swen
Join me Find Canadian true crime wherever.
- [02:34]
Pablo Torre
You get your podcasts.
- [02:38]
Charles Don Flores
ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [02:44]
Pablo Torre
Acast.com. Back when I was a magazine reporter, and this was many years before I locked myself inside the PTFO studio in New York City, I loved spending time on the road, just driving around this country. But one place I had never been before is a town in East Texas called Livingston. Livingston is the home of the Polanski Unit, a supermax prison that is otherwise known as Texas Death Row. You may recall that we sent PTFO correspondent Dave Fleming to this place back in October 2024 because we wanted Dave to find out about the apparently enormous role that football fandom plays for the inmates here. The men whose last words before state execution sometimes even wind up being shout outs to their favorite NFL team, which, in a sense, says everything. But today, more than a year later and ahead of Super Bowl Sunday, it is my turn to meet our guide to a fandom that is truly unlike any other. A remarkable inmate by the name of Charles Don Flores, a person you can hear right now as he's walking down the hall to the Polanski unit's visitation room. This surreal place with a painting of Cookie Monster on the wall behind me, an eerie Star wars mural across the way, and a thick pane of glass which forever separates the inmates from their kids, their family, their visitors. Charles Flores spends almost all of his life at the Polanski Unit in solitary confinement. How you doing, brother? Good, Charles. But now, as we'll explain, he is running out of time, even though he never should have ended up in here at all. It occurs to me that you spend 23 hours a day in solitary.
- [05:15]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah.
- [05:16]
Pablo Torre
And so you have an hour with me, and I am really grateful that you're taking the time.
- [05:21]
Charles Don Flores
Thanks so much for caring and for coming down here and for taking interest in my situation and, you know, because it's not just about me. It's about all the guys down here. Right. I'm just one person out of, you know, almost 200 people down here.
- [05:38]
Pablo Torre
But the other reason I'm here, of course, is you're the Pablo Torre Finds out official Dallas Cowboys correspondent.
- [05:44]
Charles Don Flores
That's right.
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Pablo Torre
And so the first question that I have for you is, how about them Cowboys?
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Charles Don Flores
Oh, man. How about them Cowboys?
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Pablo Torre
What happened?
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Charles Don Flores
I think that they weren't able to adjust on defense. I think it come down to they had some good players, but they didn't have the right players to fit the scheme that Ibrahe was running. And then when they realized that and they tried to change it, it was like the position coaches didn't have them ready. And in the biggest moments, they felt when against Detroit, you know. Yeah, they were playing 10 yards off the wide receiver, off of Jameson Williams, the fastest dude on the field. You're going to give him 10 yards, he was gone. They were covering him with the safety. Come on, man. That'd be like me trying to cover him.
- [06:42]
Pablo Torre
Well, can I. Can I read you. Can I read you the e message that you sent us? I need to hold you to account as a guy with takes.
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Charles Don Flores
All right?
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Pablo Torre
You're referencing Jameson Williams, referencing Matty Brefluse, you're referencing the coaches. This is what you said May 2025, quote. So in case you didn't hear, this is the year the Cowboys win another super bowl, exclamation point. You heard it here first. And when it happens, remember, I predicted it. I'm so pumped about the upcoming NFL season in college football, too. End quote.
- [07:09]
Charles Don Flores
Okay.
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Pablo Torre
And then some stuff happened. I was thinking about you on January 4th.
- [07:15]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah.
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Pablo Torre
How did you feel, in truth about playing the Giants last game of the season and what you wanted after the Detroit game?
- [07:25]
Charles Don Flores
I didn't want them to win another game because I wanted a top 10 pick, a top eight pick, you know, to be able to get the player that they need. And if you ask me what they need, they need a big defensive end that can rush. You know what I'm saying? So them don't grow on trees. Them are at the top 10.
- [07:46]
Pablo Torre
You had one. You had one of those.
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Charles Don Flores
He wasn't big enough.
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Pablo Torre
Michael Parsons wasn't big enough.
- [07:52]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah. If you ever watch, like for instance, whenever they would play the San Francisco 49ers, Trent Williams would put his handles on him and it was over. He'd eliminate him. And whenever he would play an elite defensive tackle like that, that happens to him because he's a linebacker. He's linebacker size. Right. 6, 3, 250. Yeah, you need 6, 5, 2, 90 coming off that end. Right. And so I loved Michael Parsons, but paying half of your salary to three guys would have been insane.
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Pablo Torre
We're just kidding. Now we're doing what would have been insane.
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Charles Don Flores
So.
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Pablo Torre
So we're doing pti now we're debating. Now you're on party interruptions, Charles, you and me. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding? Micah Parsons wasn't big enough. He's the best player on the team. Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. I want to point out that you guys have the number 12 pick, the number 20 pick now.
- [08:46]
Charles Don Flores
Yes.
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Pablo Torre
And you have a priority that you're placing on the future, on the long view of the next generation of cowboy star. If you could tell the Dallas Cowboys a specific thing, give them a take. What do you want to tell them?
- [09:05]
Charles Don Flores
I think they've got to stay on defense. They can't get enamored with another offensive player, no matter who it is. You have to draft defense and you have to build from the inside out. You got to put that defensive in that big guy. You got to find him, you got to put him on there. And then with the 20th pick, get a linebacker and then Jerry Jones, you have to spend some money in free agency. You got it?
- [09:28]
Pablo Torre
Yep. Charles. Charles, it's a remarkable thing. It's a remarkable thing.
- [09:33]
Charles Don Flores
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [09:35]
Pablo Torre
How much faith you have in this team despite it all. So if you missed our original interview with Charles Flores, this is where I need to jump in to tell you why the state of Texas has plans to execute him and how I got interested in his case in the first place. In 1999, Charles got sentenced to death for the murder of Betty Black, a 64 year old woman who was shot and killed during a break in at her home just outside of Dallas. But Charles, it is worth noting, was never accused of being the person who shot Betty Black or even carrying a weapon. In fact, there has never been any physical evidence linking him to the crime at all. What Charles was accused of instead was being a knowing participant in the murder and attempted robbery to which Charles pleaded not guilty, maintaining to this day that he wasn't at the house in question at all. But how Charles Flores was still found guilty of capital murder despite all of that, is what really blew my mind about his case, because it involves this video.
- [11:09]
Charles Don Flores
The first thing I remember is when I looked out the window and I saw a car pulled up into the driveway. I remember it was a VW fog and I remember seeing two guys get out and I remember looking at the passenger as he got out and remembering his dark hair. But basically the same as the drivers.
- [11:37]
Pablo Torre
In the absence of physical evidence, what the state of Texas did was use a tactic called forensic hypnosis on the eyewitness. In this video, this is the victim's neighbor, a woman named Jill Barganier. Jill Bargainier had initially told police that she saw two white men, both with long dark hair, step out of a multicolored Volkswagen and head toward her neighbor's house. And in a photo lineup, Barganier picked out a tall white guy with long dark hair named Richard Childs as the driver. But Bargadier did not identify Charles Flores. Not initially. And then the forensic hypnosis happened. Have you ever seen a documentary film, like on tv, like the, with the Animal Kingdom show or. You know what we're going to do is, is when we get you into a deep state of hypnosis, we're going.
- [12:31]
Charles Don Flores
To take you to a theater.
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Pablo Torre
It's going to be your own private theater. And basically what it is you're going to be seeing in a documentary, and.
- [12:39]
Charles Don Flores
You'Re going to be seeing the film of the events that occurred on that day, on that morning. Okay, I'm going to ask you to verbalize.
- [12:47]
Pablo Torre
I'll tell you more about the scientific absurdity of this tactic in a bit. But what you need to know right now is that at the trial of Charles Flores more than a year later, Jill Bargadier finally identified him as the passenger Richard Childs had been driving. Even though Charles, of course, has never looked like a tall white guy with long dark hair. And here's the kicker. In the state of Texas, there is something called the law of parties which punishes knowing participants in a capital murder as if they themselves had fired the gun. Which is all to say that Charles Flores got sentenced to death in 1999 because a forensically hypnotized witness belatedly identified him as the passenger of the actual gunman, Richard Childs, who by the way proceeded to strike a plea bargain admitting to being the killer once Charles got convicted. Which is how Richard Childs eventually got released on parole back in 2016, 10 years ago. Now, while Charles remains trapped here, one of the 161 men awaiting execution. Can you describe the surroundings for people who are just hearing us talk?
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Charles Don Flores
Well, I'm a Texas death row prisoner and we're at Polanski unit in the visitation room.
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Pablo Torre
Yeah, I mean, you've been here for.
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Charles Don Flores
How long now, 26 years?
- [14:18]
Pablo Torre
Since 99.
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Charles Don Flores
Since 99.
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Pablo Torre
And among the 161, are you one of the elder statesmen by now? Are you one of the vets?
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Charles Don Flores
Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't, I don't wanna. Nothing to be proud of, I guess. But yeah, I've been here a long time. And so I am one of the, one of the old school, old school cats here. And it's kind of funny because I've read that people are often they Stay the AIDS that they were inside their head when they were locked up. So I. You know, I got here. I was, what, 28, I think, I believe.
- [14:58]
Pablo Torre
And.
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Charles Don Flores
And then a lot of times, I still think I'm 28, you know, and then when people, hey, old school. Who the hell's that fool talking to? You know what I'm saying? But it's me. I'm 56 years old now. You know what I'm saying? So that is surreal. You know, it's kind of. It's kind of hard to comprehend, I guess.
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Pablo Torre
What do you remember about America, the outside world, in 1999? What are the last things you remember?
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Charles Don Flores
I'll tell you. I'll tell you an interesting story. In 1998, okay, that was the last time I was free. I had a cell phone, and it was the first digital cell phone that had come out, because before then, they were analog. Okay. There was no text, there was no pictures, much less Internet or anything. It was just clear, you know what I'm saying? And that was, like, state of the art. So imagine that.
- [15:53]
Pablo Torre
But now, how aware are you of all the things that have happened?
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Charles Don Flores
Oh, man, it's just. It's just so. You know, remember, we. We didn't have TV here. Yeah. For. Until, what, 20, 20, 23.
- [16:07]
Pablo Torre
TVs were only available in the Polanski unit starting three. Two. Three years ago.
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Charles Don Flores
Exactly. Yes. Just so you know how much of a football fan I am, the first thing that we got to watch was the Chiefs beating the Eagles in the Super Bowl.
- [16:22]
Pablo Torre
What did it feel like to watch the Super Bowl?
- [16:25]
Charles Don Flores
It was amazing because back in the gap in 98, they didn't have all the angles and all the ways to see the game. And to have that camera jumping around like that, it was just. It was almost like disconcerting. We'd never seen it, right now everybody's used to it. Yeah. But, wow, it's amazing.
- [16:45]
Pablo Torre
I mean, you tune back in, and suddenly this is the thing that is the only thing that everyone can gather around is football. That's what's happened out here, is that football's only become the most important thing in America.
- [16:59]
Charles Don Flores
That's right. That's right.
- [17:00]
Pablo Torre
And so we're talking, by the way, ahead of the Super Bowl.
- [17:03]
Charles Don Flores
Yes.
- [17:04]
Pablo Torre
And so can you explain where the super bowl now ranks among events here?
- [17:10]
Charles Don Flores
Okay, so. So it's probably a revolving thing. Christmas, Thanksgiving, Super Bowl. But let me tell you, if the Texans make it, super bowl is going to be number one, you know, because the biggest population back there are the guys from. From Houston.
- [17:28]
Pablo Torre
Yeah.
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Charles Don Flores
I don't know about C.J. stroud, but, man, that defense is scary. And you remember the Baltimore team that won the super bowl with Trent Dilfer? Yeah, they remind me of that. Didn't watch it, but I listened to it. Right.
- [17:40]
Pablo Torre
I was gonna say you were listening to this.
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Charles Don Flores
I listened to it.
- [17:42]
Pablo Torre
Yeah.
- [17:43]
Charles Don Flores
They had Jamal. What? Jamal Anderson was the running back.
- [17:47]
Pablo Torre
It was Jamal Lewis.
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Charles Don Flores
Lewis. Okay. I knew it was Jamal.
- [17:49]
Pablo Torre
Jamal Anderson, Falcons running back. Jamal Lewis, Ravens running back.
- [17:52]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah, you remember they had a run game. Yeah, yeah, they were good.
- [17:56]
Pablo Torre
And they had a quarterback who was just. Eh. Yeah, yeah, you can hear that. You can hear him just being as you. As you were following the game.
- [18:04]
Charles Don Flores
That's right. That's right.
- [18:05]
Pablo Torre
So can you remind us just like, how you watch the game? There's a TV now.
- [18:09]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah.
- [18:10]
Pablo Torre
And so just. You're again, in solitary 23 hours a day, and you have these. I mean, these. You're in a cement box, a tiny cement box. Steel doors, but there are. There's like an opening where you're just like watching the communal television out in the hall. Basically.
- [18:25]
Charles Don Flores
Yes. Yeah. So I'm at. The cell is 9 foot wide, 12 foot long. the front of the cell, I have a door that's about waist height. They have two cutouts, three inches wide and then about three foot tall.
- [18:46]
Pablo Torre
I see.
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Charles Don Flores
And it's not glass. It's this wire. Okay. They don't have glass in it, so that allows the sound to come in a lot better. And. And, you know, we can talk and.
- [18:57]
Pablo Torre
And all that, but you're watching through the little diamonds on, like the chain link wire, basically.
- [19:01]
Charles Don Flores
Exactly. So I have some legal work that I make a makeshift, like, stool, and it's about the size of the chair or this stool that I'm sitting.
- [19:09]
Pablo Torre
Your papers from your case now decades long. Exactly. Is now big enough to be. Yeah, right. You're. Gosh, I believe it.
- [19:19]
Charles Don Flores
So when I'm watching tv, when I'm watching football, I have my. My. My stool at the. At. At the front of the cell, and I'm sitting, you know, about this close, and I usually have a book that I put on the sink, and that's my, like, end table. So I have my drink there. Maybe if I have chips or whatever, nachos or whatever, you know what I'm saying, they're there. And then like some of the plays, first down and, you know, and they run the ball, I'm just sitting here. But, like, if it's third and 10 or whatever, I get up. Yeah, I get up and, and I'm looking, I'm looking through that diamond. I'm watching because I have to get as close as I can.
- [19:59]
Pablo Torre
Right? You can get on the stack of papers now.
- [20:01]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah, yeah. But, but, but when it's time to really watch, you got to get very close.
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Pablo Torre
You're putting your eye, you're making a diamond shape with your hands and you're looking right through it.
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Charles Don Flores
Yeah. And I'm actually looking through one of these squares.
- [20:12]
Pablo Torre
You're picking one and then.
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Charles Don Flores
Yes, yeah. Focusing in on that.
- [20:15]
Pablo Torre
Yeah.
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Charles Don Flores
And the tb, the TV is probably more or less from here to the blue wall on the. Behind the machines.
- [20:23]
Pablo Torre
So there's a row of vending machines behind me and there's a blue wall right there.
- [20:27]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah. 25, 30. 30 foot away, something like that.
- [20:29]
Pablo Torre
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [20:31]
Charles Don Flores
But where I'm at, I'm in the face based program and we got a 50 inch TV. It's like one of the parts, it's on the wall. So I can see it pretty good.
- [20:39]
Pablo Torre
Right. Do that little diamond you can see.
- [20:41]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah. I'm blessed. To me, that's blessed.
- [20:46]
Pablo Torre
Well, it's this thing that sports allows.
- [20:49]
Charles Don Flores
Yes.
- [20:50]
Pablo Torre
That I really want to understand because the super bowl comes around and it's this holiday and I imagine there are rituals here, like food, like, how does that work on Super Bowl Sunday?
- [21:02]
Charles Don Flores
Remember when you're sent to prison, you're taken away from your people, you're taken away from your clan, you're taken away from everything that you know and you love and you agree with and then you're put here and then. So like being a fan of something that's part of being in society and even though we're locked away being a fan, me being a cowboy fan, or the brothers back there, you know, being super hype about the Houston Texans, that's their connection to one of the connections to the free world. Right. And so that's why everybody is so invested in it, because it's not just them, it's mom at home, it's dad at home, it's the brothers when you call home. That's all they're talking about. That's all we're talking about. And you were just so hype, you know what I'm saying? So the super bowl is a big deal. And so everybody will make some type of super bowl feast, some type of big, big meal. Right? And for me, remember the, the super bowl is in, is in the late afternoon. So, you know, it starts about 5:36 o' clock, right. So I'll. I'll probably make something appetizer, nachos or something, you know, and we buy everything that we cook. It's already pre cooked from the prison commissary. And the prison commissary. Just imagine that that's our grocery store. You buy a big bag of tortilla chips, all right. You buy a bottle of squeezed cheese, and you buy a chili with bean that's in, like a microwavable pack. And the key is you gotta know how to mix em.
- [22:50]
Pablo Torre
So what's Charles Flores's secret to mixing all that stuff?
- [22:56]
Charles Don Flores
If I tell you, I might have to char.
- [23:01]
Pablo Torre
I can tell that you're the guy who knows the. You know, the secret recipe here.
- [23:06]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah, yeah. By my size. I'm sure you can tell.
- [23:08]
Pablo Torre
I wasn't gonna say it, but the idea that you guys are all celebrating the super bowl individually. But together.
- [23:14]
Charles Don Flores
But together. Because remember, imagine. Imagine, like, you see these. These booths here? You know, imagine there's a dude in each one.
- [23:21]
Pablo Torre
Yeah. And. Right.
- [23:22]
Charles Don Flores
But we're all at the. At the. At the front. We're all there. So I can talk to the guy here. I can talk to the guy next to him. I can talk to the guy at the end if I. If I. If I shout loud enough.
- [23:32]
Pablo Torre
Yeah.
- [23:33]
Charles Don Flores
This is just like if you're at home, because when the commercial comes on or whatever, you know, that's where, like, man, did you see this play? How about, you know, that guy's playing good and. Or C.J. stroud, man, don't throw the ball again. Just run. You know, when they go to sack you, just go down, you know?
- [23:51]
Pablo Torre
But the idea that you're hearing stuff I want to actually understand, like, you know, listening to the radio when you first get in here. You know, I think about this because the World Cup's coming up this year.
- [24:03]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah. Ooh.
- [24:03]
Pablo Torre
Yeah. And I know you're a soccer guy.
- [24:05]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah.
- [24:06]
Pablo Torre
And so can you explain, like, how soccer fandom has worked in here and how you first started, like, you know, tuning in?
- [24:13]
Charles Don Flores
You know, that's amazing because in the free world, I really. Soccer wasn't a thing, and so I really didn't pay attention to it. But when I got here. When you come to prison, bro, when you come in and it's a new environment and it's potentially dangerous, you're looking for the people that look like you. The white guy doesn't go sit with the black guys. No, the white guys goes over there and sits with the white guys. Right. When the Mexican Guy comes in, he's not going to the white guys, he's not going to the black guys, he's going to the Mexican guy, you know, the Latinos that look like him, you know. And I've always been the type of, type of guy that I'm proud of, being a Latino. I'm proud that my people are, you know, Americans of Mexican descent. I'm proud that I know Spanish and being able to communicate with the brothers that might not know English very well.
- [25:16]
Pablo Torre
Well, it also means you could listen to the better version of the broadcast.
- [25:20]
Charles Don Flores
Exactly. And so that's where I was going. That's where I'm going. And so with them, they're talking about it. We used to listen to the Mexican national team on a scratchy little AM station out of Houston and they broadcasted all the games and especially the World cup, the Gold cup, you know, cup of America's all that in Spanish. And when I listened to that, oh man, it blew my mind. Right? And I loved it. I loved it. And I got into following the sport. Right.
- [25:53]
Pablo Torre
Well, they're having so much more fun.
- [25:54]
Charles Don Flores
Yes.
- [25:55]
Pablo Torre
The Spanish language broadcasters are enjoying their lives, without a doubt.
- [26:01]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah. And I was still wondering, are they drinking beer up there or what's going on? Cause they're having too much fun.
- [26:10]
Pablo Torre
Once you hear it, it's hard to. It's hard to go. It's hard to go back.
- [26:15]
Charles Don Flores
It's interesting, right? Because for the most part, not a lot of guys follow soccer here. But I think it's gonna, it's. That's gonna change when we're gonna finally get to watch it. We didn't get to watch the last.
- [26:26]
Pablo Torre
World cup, of course. Right.
- [26:27]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah.
- [26:28]
Pablo Torre
Right. Yeah. Every four years now.
- [26:31]
Charles Don Flores
This time we will.
- [26:33]
Pablo Torre
Well, I know one of your dreams was to get to see the World Cup.
- [26:38]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah.
- [26:39]
Pablo Torre
Because finally in North America.
- [26:41]
Charles Don Flores
Oh, yeah.
- [26:51]
Pablo Torre
So I just heard something that totally shocked me recently, which is that teens spend an average of 9 hours per day on screens outside of school, which basically is a full time job of just scrolling mindlessly. And there are also tons of studies that show just how bad that is for them. From feeling overwhelmed or worse about their lives to high risks of depression and anxiety. Teens and phones just do not mix. And with daughter myself, I am constantly worried about when she reaches an age where we gotta have the phone talk. But here's the good news. Gab Wireless has solved the problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is tech in steps. Tech in steps works by providing kids safe phones and watches with no social media and tailored to every age, offering the right device at the right time. From GPS tracking enabled watches for young kids to increased features and parent enabled apps on the phones for tweens and teens, each device allows them to safely grow their independence. The bottom line? You don't have to give your kid a device that was made for an adult. Get them Gab which keeps them socially connected safely, which means no social media and no Internet apps. Gab just makes sense to me. So use our code to get the best deal on something that'll make parenting easier and give you peace of mind. Visit gab.compablo torre and use code Pablo Torre for a special offer. That's Gab G A B B A well built wardrobe is about pieces that work together and hold up over time. That's what Quince does best. Premium materials, thoughtful design, and everyday staples that feel easy to wear and easy to rely on even as the weather shifts. Quinte works directly with top factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're not paying for brand markup, just quality clothing. And with everything built to hold up to daily wear, you still look good season after season. They have the everyday essentials that I love and they have quality that lasts. The cashmere hoodie I have, for instance is ridiculously soft and also did not cost a fortune. Plus they only partner with factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. Basically, you never have to worry about where your clothes are coming from. So refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to quints.com Pablo for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-N-C-E.com Pablo free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Pablo update your wardrobe today. The longer you stay alive, the longer you can enjoy Boost Mobile's unlimited plan with a price that never goes up. So here are some tips. Do not parallel park on a cliff if you want to enjoy an unlimited plan with a price that never goes up. Do not mistake a wasp nest for a pinata if you want to enjoy an unlimited plan with a price that never goes up. Do not microwave a hard boiled egg if you want to enjoy an unlimited plan with the price that never goes up. Stay alive and enjoy Unlimited Wireless for $25 a month forever with Boost Mode Mobile. After 30 gigs, customers may experience lower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Mobile Unlimited Plan. The question of what you're hoping for and what you were dreaming about. I want to establish that, like, you specifically, are the reason that I've been tracking this practice that I didn't know existed called forensic hypnosis. And so the fact that this thing existed for so long, and the fact that you have been a name and a face that has popped up in the coverage of this story over time.
- [30:34]
Charles Don Flores
Yes.
- [30:35]
Pablo Torre
Like the last decade of the practice of police hypnosis, which is a real thing that exists in America. The last decade. It tracks alongside your last decade of hoping and appealing and trying to see if you could actually get out of here.
- [30:54]
Charles Don Flores
Yes.
- [30:54]
Pablo Torre
And so I just want to go back to 2016, because in 2016, I'm just looking at the notes I've written down here.
- [31:01]
Charles Don Flores
Yes.
- [31:01]
Pablo Torre
I mean, you were days away from execution.
- [31:05]
Charles Don Flores
Five days.
- [31:07]
Pablo Torre
Could you just describe what it was like to be five days away from the day?
- [31:14]
Charles Don Flores
It was surreal. So it's one of those situations. You gotta be there. You gotta be in a cell next to me to experience that. Right. But I'll do my best. I remember the last visit before I got my stay of execution. Cause I got five days away, and it was a Friday, and my mom and my brother had come to visit me. And if that wasn't enough, my father had died two weeks before my scheduled execution. And so I was so traumatized. I was numb. I couldn't feel no more. You had to turn. It was up there, and I couldn't feel that. But I remember that I had to be strong for my mother. I had to be the one that encouraged and gave hope. And so instead of having a bunch of people console me, I was the one that was talking about, well, man, it's not over yet. It's not over yet. Because that's how I felt. That's what it was. And I remember telling her that the appeal that was filed on the hypnosis stuff, because I'd had a whole string of attorneys before that telling me that that was not a claim. I couldn't use it. It had been settled in the court before. Yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. Right. And essentially, they're telling me, no, your ass is dead. You're fixing to die. All you got left is mitigation. And in Texas, it's a wrap. You know what I'm saying? If you're counting on hypnosis to save you, it's over. But we had this claim. It came up at the last minute, and I had a new attorney that was helping me. He was A professor at American University. So it was him and a class of third year law students that were able to put this appeal together in about 45 days and filed it. Bam. And I remember when I got it, I sat down and I read it. Then I read it again, then I read it a third time. And I knew that it was the best appeal that had been filed for me. And if the court heard it, I'd get a stay and I might walk out this place. You know, at that time, I thought. I thought that would be. That would be the one that would get me out of here. And so fast forward to that visit. And I told my mother, I said, mom, just imagine like we're at the casino in Las Vegas and we're betting the farm. We're gonna bet everything that we got on this appeal. And if we, if we win, I'm gonna get out of here. And if we lose, well, I'll see you in heaven, you know, but believe me, I've got hope because this is the. The best appeal that was. Ever followed me. So that was. That was the mindset. That's what I had in my. My mind. I wasn't so much thinking about myself. I was thinking about my. My parent, my mom who just lost my dad. I knew if. If they executed me, it's gonna kill her. You know what I'm saying? That was the. The level, the stakes in my situation.
- [34:43]
Pablo Torre
And what happened next. On May 27, 2016, five days before the state of Texas was scheduled to kill Charles Flores really needs to be heard, to be believed, because what Charles just said is true. His legal team had filed an appeal with newfound hope. The practice of forensic hypnosis had long been criticized as fundamentally flawed, if not just outright absurd. Given that it really is what it sounds like, the police hypnotizing a person like the previously mentioned eyewitness Jill Bargainier, so that they can supposedly recall traumatic events with supposedly greater clarity.
- [35:22]
Charles Don Flores
Just relax. I'm gonna ask you to concentrate and.
- [35:25]
Pablo Torre
Focus on the tiny. On the hundred tiny little muscles that are on the bottom of your feet.
- [35:30]
Charles Don Flores
3, 2, 1, and 0.
- [35:40]
Pablo Torre
But what Charles lawyers did with the clock ticking down was build their case around the state's 2013 junk science law, Texas State Article 11.073. And they had this memory expert named Dr. Steven Lin testify that the hypnosis of Jill Bargadier was done horribly wrong, likely creating a false memory of a person, Charles Flores, whose face had been plastered all over the news in the months after he got arrested. Which now brings us Back to what happened on Friday, May 27, 2016. This was hours after Charles's mom, who had just been visiting him maybe for the last time, had driven away.
- [36:24]
Charles Don Flores
I didn't find out about. About it till like 9 o', clock, and I found out about it on the radio.
- [36:31]
Pablo Torre
The exact same radio that he had used to listen to NFL broadcasts and soccer games in Spanish.
- [36:38]
Charles Don Flores
And that's surreal. When you hear, hey, you know, Pablo Torre, death row prisoner, has been given a stay of execution. You're like, whoa. You know, it's like, is this a movie? What? What? What's going on?
- [36:53]
Pablo Torre
You heard it in your cell?
- [36:54]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I heard on the radio.
- [37:00]
Pablo Torre
And thanks to the archive of KPFT 90.1 FM in Houston, which broadcasts a program every Friday called the Prison show, where the hosts give updates on inmates cases, you can now hear this too.
- [37:15]
Charles Don Flores
I am so excited, guys. So excited. Get up and jump up. Charles gotta stay. Charles got a stay. Get up and tell everyone. I'm gonna read what Greg and I put out. The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals Charles execution date, based on Dr. Steven Lynn's affidavit that the only eyewitness identification of Charles was tainted by a hypnosis session that was performed with outdated science. The hypnosis session likely caused a false memory of Charles and a false identification because the information is newly discovered and likely would have resulted in an acquaintance acquittal if Charles was tried. Today, the Court of Criminal Appeals remanded the case back to the trial court for further hearings on the junk science used to admit the hypnosis altered memory of Charles. Charles will seek to get a new trial through these hearings. He gotta stay, guys. We're happy. Thanks, Dave. And I wasn't the only one. Everybody heard. It's a good cheering. Everybody's happy.
- [38:35]
Pablo Torre
But that happiness, that cinematically joyous hope that Charles case would finally get a retrial, it did not last. In 2017, the state rejected the appeal of Charles Don Flores. And in 2020, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals upheld the ruling. And this is the point in the story where things get even crazier, because in 2023, in recognition of all of the criticisms we've already mentioned here, which were extensively investigated, incidentally, by the Dallas Morning News, Texas passed a new law, a law specifically banning hypnosis induced evidence from being used in criminal trials.
- [39:17]
Gretchen Swen
There was sort of a, you know, a shockwave that went through Texas about, wait, are we really allowing law enforcement to hypnotize witnesses?
- [39:27]
Pablo Torre
This is the person who's represented Charles pro bono since 2016. His lawyer, Gretchen Swen.
- [39:33]
Gretchen Swen
And it was a big embarrassment for the Texas Rangers, who were sort of the biggest trainers in this technique. And now the law has changed. It is no longer lawful to admit the fruits of a hypnosis session. So if you want to do that, fine, but you're not going to get then what comes out of that in front of the jury. And that is true in most jurisdictions in this country.
- [40:01]
Pablo Torre
But as tremendous as this news seemed for Charles Flores, there was a confounding and infuriating catch.
- [40:10]
Gretchen Swen
Charles wasn't able to benefit from this law. There's no retroactive provision here. So a law inspired by his case, reflecting a clear sense of, you know, outrage, hasn't benefit a guy on death row.
- [40:28]
Pablo Torre
All of which, in our view, is profoundly, profoundly.
- [40:37]
Charles Don Flores
It's not retroactive. It didn't apply. It doesn't apply to the past. So it gets even worse. You know, we had an emergency situation where the attorney general wanted to set an execution date this last spring, and it was a miracle we were able to file an appeal. And then that appeal had, for the first time, all of the hypnosis information in it.
- [41:12]
Pablo Torre
You heard that right. In May 2025, about seven months after our original episode with Charles aired, the state of Texas attempted to set an execution date for him. A legal letter even circulated listing several available dates in November 2025. And Gretchen, at this point, his lawyer immediately filed a petition claiming that this move was unlawful. And then in June, she filed a new set of affidavits with the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals. And this included new expert declarations that cast even more doubt on the integrity of the original conviction.
- [41:50]
Gretchen Swen
So we had new claims, new evidence. We also had a great sworn statement from his original trial lawyer who basically said, if I had known any of this, I would have been outraged. And describing just the pressures he was under, what was kept from him, how they weren't even given any discovery until they were already in the middle of trial, and this was standard practice. And that he looked back on his own reaction to this and took responsibility for some of his own choices that were harmful to his client. And also expressed just real outrage that this case is where it is and that Charles has not been given a new trial. And that's pretty amazing stuff, except that.
- [42:39]
Pablo Torre
By October of 2025, several months later, that petition got dismissed, procedurally barred, without explanation.
- [42:50]
Gretchen Swen
So what this decision was was that we're not going to look at the merits of this claim, not even look at It. And, you know, it's devastating. I get a notice. It's what's called a postcard notice. So there's not even an opinion. It's just. You get a notice saying that something was denied. And it's really hard thing to convey to a client that they brought very sincerely all this stuff to a court that is just saying, we're not looking at that.
- [43:29]
Pablo Torre
And what I really came here to hear from you was what it's like to feel like you're not being hurt.
- [43:40]
Charles Don Flores
That almost killed me again. That was like. I think that the danger, right, that a guy on death row has to deal with is allowing himself to believe that he might get out of here. And so you set yourself up for a fall, you know, you set yourself up for a disappointment. And again, because it. It's like. It's like Groundhog Day, because I get these pill and I read it and I'm like, man, this is amazing.
- [44:15]
Pablo Torre
I'm reading it and I'm thinking the same thing. Like, this makes a ton of sense.
- [44:19]
Charles Don Flores
And then when you think about it again, Gretchen, my attorney, she wrote that in, like, about two weeks. And it was like everything fell. So it was like a. It was like a blessing from the good Lord. I mean, how else can all of this stuff just fall in line? We've been working for five years to try to find an issue so we can file another appeal, right? I've been in limbo back and forth, and so, bam, it happens. And I. And I allow myself to hope, and I allow myself to think about, man, I might just get to see that World Cup. I might just get to be watching Dallas Cowboys. You know, I'm allowing myself to imagine my life after Death Row. I actually allowed myself to think about what I wanted to do when I get out of here. What I want to do is I want to take an extended trip. And what kind of music would I be listening to when I'm on the trip? So I let myself think about that. I let myself go there, right? And then In October, on October 4th, you know, bam, it was. It was. The dream was. Was destroyed. And like I said, it almost killed me. I'm still not over it. You know what I'm saying? I got a smile on my face. I'm laughing, but, man, you know, I'm just.
- [45:43]
Pablo Torre
And I didn't know about the playlist. Do you know what song is the first song? Do you have. Do you have a specific song you're trying to. That you've imagined?
- [45:56]
Charles Don Flores
The first one that I Put down was the song. The road goes on forever and the party never ends. And it's a story song and it's about a guy and a girl. You know the song.
- [46:11]
Pablo Torre
Could you, could you give me a little. Do you.
- [46:13]
Charles Don Flores
Now you're putting me on the spot. And what, what, what, what the song is about. Let, let me try to give you the background is it's a guy and a girl, they meet in a bar. And he was kind of a. A mess up, like me. Tried to go to the navy, but he couldn't pass the test. So he started. He got involved in dealing contraband and then the cops got on him and they sent him to the pen. When he got back out, he was back at it again in a house just off the roof with a briefcase full of money and a pistol in his boot. So he meets the girl, they drive to Miami and they run out of money. The guy has an idea. He knows some other guys that deal in contraband. So he goes to make the deal. He's got the money, they've got the product. And as that's going down, the cops run in. When he's getting away, he runs to the bathroom, jumps out the back window. There's the cop. And as he's reading him his rights, his girl comes around in his truck with a single shot.410. And the road goes on forever and the party never ends. And later on that night, he gives her all the money and he tells her, when the cops catch up to you, tell them that I put you up to this. And then the story ends. 20, I think it's 21 months later, she reads that he's going to the chair. The headlines read that Sunny is going to the chair. She pulls back on the main street in her new Mercedes Benz. The road goes on forever and the party never ends. As she gets in her brand new Mercedes Benz. The road goes on forever and the party never ends. So, yeah, it's a. It's a pretty. It's a pretty, pretty dramatic song. It's great though, right? Yeah, it's great. It's great.
- [48:34]
Pablo Torre
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- [49:35]
Charles Don Flores
Before I knew it, people all over.
- [49:36]
Pablo Torre
Were hearing about my shop. Now that's a smart way to grow your business. Hey Lisa, what's trending right now? Shopping sustainably and my sales, of course. Start reaching your ideal audience through podcast ads with Acast. Visit go.acast.com advertise to get started. I want to fill people in on this. Like, as time is wearing thin here, we, we have this place to ourselves.
- [50:08]
Charles Don Flores
That's right.
- [50:08]
Pablo Torre
It's empty. And there are other people here who are, who are scheduled, who are on the docket for execution when I, I believe someone soon is scheduled. What's it like in here? As that gets closer, do you, does the air change? Does what, what, what does that feel like?
- [50:31]
Charles Don Flores
So when you get up, when you're given an active execution day, there's two death rows, there's the death row, where the majority of the guys are there. And it's like suspended animation almost, because you don't have the active execution day, right? So you're going through the appeals process that's running. So you're kind of quote, safe. You're really, really never safe here. But you allow yourself to believe that because I'm not going to die next month or six months from now or next year. You know what? However, however, then there's the other death row, which is the true death row, which is you have an active execution day. And when you have the execution day, you're put on death watch. And it's a section of cells, seven on the bottom, seven on the top, where all the guys that had this pending execution date are housed. And in these cells, they have a camera in the corner, so they're monitoring you. They're watching you 24 hours a day, seven days a week to make sure you don't hurt yourself so you'll be alive in time for them to murder you. You understand? And so there, I think, what is it, five, four or five guys over there right now when I death watch is on my pod. This is A section, this is B section, this is C section. I live in C section. My cell is there. A section is death watch. So when I Come through today, on the way up out here, Busby was in the day room. Eddie Lee is what we call him. So I hollered at him. What's up, Eddie Lee? He's a Cowboy fan, too. Just so you know. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's always a reminder. He's over there, you know, because sometimes, you know, you get caught up in your own thing. You're doing your own thing so that reality will slip away. When you're over there with them, you can't get away from it. You understand what I'm saying? You can't get away from that. Cause you're the one with the date. Everybody's around, you've got the date. You look up, there's that camera watching you. He can't get away from that.
- [52:56]
Pablo Torre
I want to be clear about this again. For people, the man who pled guilty, who confessed to shooting Betty Black, is free.
- [53:07]
Charles Don Flores
That's right.
- [53:08]
Pablo Torre
He got out on probation.
- [53:09]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah. 10 years.
- [53:11]
Pablo Torre
And. And you're still here. And I'm wondering if you ever imagine what he's doing now.
- [53:20]
Charles Don Flores
I try not to think. Think about things that. That upset me. I work real hard at staying peaceful and positive. And, yeah, if I start thinking about that, I imagine that might upset me a little bit. Get angry and. And it. I used to. In my younger days, I think I used to enjoy getting angry and acting out. Now it's like the thing that I dislike the most. I hate not being in control of myself. And so with anger, because, like, for anger, with me, man, once I start getting angry, it's like I'm hanging on to a rope and I can't grab it, and it's just slipping away, slipping away. And once I get angry, it's over. So that's just something. Something that I've learned as I've matured in life. And so, yeah, no, I don't think about that kind of thing. I think about positive things instead.
- [54:13]
Pablo Torre
You know, I hadn't thought about how the thing you can control and you've worked on controlling for decades, is the one thing you can, which is how you choose to feel.
- [54:27]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah.
- [54:28]
Pablo Torre
When did that occur to you that this was going to be something that you take pride in being disciplined about?
- [54:35]
Charles Don Flores
It's interesting because that goes with the spiritual journey that I started, man, 20 years ago. Right. And just I had to. I knew that I had to learn to control myself. It took me about five, maybe eight years to get to the point to where I was like, man, I got a problem. That problem led me to Being in this cell and I can't control. I can't control my reactions. And that's. That's emphasis on reactions. Something would happen and I would react. I couldn't. I wouldn't think of the consequences. I couldn't wait. Well, man, if you do this, you know, you're going to get in trouble, you know, and so wasn't able to do that. And it's interesting because at that point in my life, I started hearing a bunch about meditation. I was reading about meditation. I was hearing about meditation on the radio. Everywhere I turned, it seemed like meditation was coming at me. And I was like, I want to learn how to meditate. And I did. And. And with. With the help of. Of friends and people sending me books and that kind of thing. That was the key. That was the key of putting space between the awareness that is me and my ego, which is pride, which is anger, which is all of those things. Right. And the more you meditate, the more the space is in. Is in between that. Right. And that was what gave me the. The handle on controlling. Does that make sense?
- [56:17]
Pablo Torre
It's frankly the only thing that explains how you could be a Cowboys fan this long.
- [56:27]
Charles Don Flores
Well, see, I'm at a disadvantage. Who's your team? The Browns? The Steelers?
- [56:37]
Pablo Torre
Charles. Laughing, just laughing. Come over. I grew up a Giants fan.
- [56:43]
Charles Don Flores
I know the Cowboys whipping boy. Okay.
- [56:47]
Pablo Torre
So January 4th, by the way, the other side of that story, which I did not disclose until now, is that, of course, the New York Giants beat your ass.
- [56:53]
Charles Don Flores
Yup.
- [56:54]
Pablo Torre
And for that reason, no longer have the number one overall pick in the.
- [56:57]
Charles Don Flores
NFL went from one to five. Congratulations.
- [57:03]
Pablo Torre
But this is the irony, right? The irony is that out here in the free world, as you've called it, the Giants were like, we gotta get this win now. And meanwhile, you in here have the right logical but paradoxical view.
- [57:20]
Charles Don Flores
Yeah.
- [57:20]
Pablo Torre
If anyone were to have this view of like, we're playing for the future.
- [57:25]
Charles Don Flores
That's right.
- [57:25]
Pablo Torre
We want these picks. We want.
- [57:27]
Charles Don Flores
You got it. You gotta have it like that.
- [57:31]
Pablo Torre
And I just want to make sure that I give you the opportunity to tell people what you wish for them to hear, because you're still fighting this thing. There are some Hail Marys left. There's also, hopefully, a conversation that keeps going about how it is that a guy who has always maintained his innocence, who had zero pieces of physical evidence, DNA, or anything at the scene of the crime, who was only put in to the Polanski unit because of a debunked forensic hypnosis procedure that you can watch on tape and is mind blowing to revisit what Charles Don Flores would like them to hear.
- [58:22]
Charles Don Flores
Well, I know this much suffering is universal. Victimhood is optional. Victimhood is. Being stuck is rigor mortis of the mind. It's being stuck in past slights, past disrespects, past traumas, and it doesn't let you go. The reason that people embrace victimhood, that we embrace victimhood, is because it gives you the right to feel like you had the audacity to do that to me. And I'm so grateful that I've gotten to the age and the maturity that I know the difference. And so, again, suffering is universal. Stuff happens. And I keep taking these losses. I keep. I keep having this. These traumatic events happen to me. But in the end, I believe in good. I believe in a higher power. I believe in that sooner or later, the truth's going to come out, and I'm going to have that opportunity to see life after this. And in the meantime, I'm like, when these things happen, I'm just like, man, that hurt. Okay, what's next? And when I'm able to do that, they're not torturing me. They're not making me suffer in a way that I think some people who do support the death penalty want you to. Because it's not enough for them just to murder you, right? Take your life. They want you to suffer before. And so that's how I deal with that. And with regards to my case, man, I just want to fair review. I just want a fair shot. The Dallas County Prosecution office, the Dallas D A, they have a Convictions Integrity unit. And I want them to look at my case. I want them to review the case, give it a look, let the evidence speak for itself, and you come to the conclusions. Because until now, they. They don't. They don't want to do that. You know, they refuse to look at it. And they are totally and completely in control on whose case they look at. It's my understanding that the head prosecutor in Dallas, he doesn't understand that I have an actual innocence claim. He doesn't know that. And I want him to know that this is not just a technicality thing, right? That I'm trying to just get off on. On some type of rule, no, I'm innocent. I can prove it. Let the evidence speak for that. Look at it. Look at it. And I think if. If that. If we're able to get there, well, then I might be able to take that trip one day. What I'm looking forward to brother.
- [61:32]
Pablo Torre
Charles. I. I really hope that your road continues. And I hope to see you out there, man.
- [61:42]
Charles Don Flores
Without a doubt. Maybe we can go to the giant cowboy game together.
- [61:48]
Pablo Torre
God, you're gonna be insufferable.
- [61:52]
Charles Don Flores
Cause I believe in my team.
- [62:00]
Pablo Torre
So if this were a normal episode of Pablo Torre Finds out, that would be the ending. I think we would choose to go out on this laugh. Yet another laugh from a guy who can find joy, apparently, who can control his emotions, as he explained, despite what his government is actively trying to do to him. But that's not exactly what happened. As the clock on our hour together ticked down to zero, what I saw was the guards at the Polinsky unit escorting Charles back into solitary, back into his cell in C section, where this innocent man continues to await execution for a crime he did not commit. And I need to be clear. Charles has now exhausted all available avenues within the state of Texas. Now, his lawyer, Gretchen, she's going to petition the United States Supreme Court tomorrow, February 6th. But things are looking bleak. And so what we have for you in the show notes of this episode is a petition and we really hope you can sign it. It's@actionnetwork.org petitionscharles or you can just click on that link. And our goal is to make sure that people continue to hear his story. That's all we can really ask for here, is for people to give a.
- [63:41]
Charles Don Flores
Cher was a waitress at the only joint in town she had a reputation as a girl.
- [63:50]
Pablo Torre
And there's also a song. It is a song by Robert Earl Keane and I keep listening to it in honor of a superfan who is dreaming of finally queuing up a playlist and leaving the Polanski unit and driving away.
- [64:14]
Charles Don Flores
Older than the rest he was going in the Navy but couldn't pass the test so he hung around town he sold a little pot till the all cop went to sunny One day he got caught but he was back in business when they set him free again the road goes on forever and the party never ends. Sonny's playing eight ball at the joint where Sher works When some drunken out of towner put his hand up Cher's skirt Sonny took his pool Q laid the drunk out on the floor Stuffed a dollar in her tip jar Walked on out the door she's running right behind him reaching for his hand the road goes on Trevor and the party never ends.
- [65:20]
Pablo Torre
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