"Who Is Going to Pull a Pablo Torre on Pablo Torre?"

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Who Is Going to Pull a Pablo Torre on Pablo Torre?"

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out
Publisher: The Athletic
Release Date: March 20, 2026
Host: Pablo Torre
Guests: Dan Le Batard, Chris Cody, Meadowlark Media team

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode is a meta-exploration of the origins, spirit, and enduring philosophy behind Pablo Torre Finds Out (PTFO) and its parent company, Meadowlark Media. Prompted by a listener’s question—“Who is going to pull a Pablo Torre on Pablo Torre?"—the conversation investigates the roots of Meadowlark’s cultural and journalistic ethos, how its iconoclasm evolved from the Dan Le Batard Show’s days at ESPN, and why PTFO continues to push boundaries in sports journalism. The episode is an honest, often humorous reckoning with the power structures, (mis)adventures, and internal rules behind the show and company.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Listener Question and Self-Examination

• Prompt: A fan named Jordan Hudson asks (03:06), "Who funds PTFO? Who is going to pull a Pablo Torre on Pablo Torre?"
• Purpose: This sparks a discussion on transparency—inviting the hosts to "do journalism" on themselves, mirroring their investigative and irreverent approach to outside subjects.

2. Origin Story: Meadowlark’s “Birth Canal”

• Dan Le Batard & Chris Cody Retell the ESPN Breakup (03:42–08:32):
  • Chris Cody’s layoff from ESPN became a catalyst; Dan rehired him out of loyalty and as symbolic resistance (04:14).
  • Dan narrates the challenges following John Skipper’s departure from ESPN, leading to the need for independence.
  • Notable quote (Dan): “I did not see any of this happening five years ago. When I say any of it, I mean this company, but I mean America too. I did not see any of this coming and happening to the media.” (07:48)

3. Rebellion and “Playpen” Journalism at ESPN

• Spirit of Rebellion: The show’s “fearlessness” inside corporate sports media, pushing boundaries and occasionally getting in trouble—often for silly reasons (08:32–13:13).
• The Battery Stunt: Chris Cody recounts an instance of wearing a battery suit as an on-air bit, illustrating their willingness to disrupt and defy ESPN norms (09:27–12:24).
• Finding Value in Absurdity: Chris and Dan reflect that genuine journalism and irreverent comedy can—and should—coexist.

4. Infamy: The “You’re Welcome, LeBron” Billboards

• The Billboard Incident (16:04–19:23):
  • The show bought billboards in Akron taunting LeBron James, prompting ESPN suspension and local outrage.
  • Audio of newscast and Chris Cody’s recounting—emphasizes show’s non-conformity.
  • Notable quote (Dan): “I want to be anti-establishment from within the establishment. I want to rail against nonsense and see if we can be a playpen where people can just do absurd things.” (18:34)

5. The Art of Making People Hang Up

• Compilation of “Hang-Up” Moments (21:37–29:48):
  • The show’s legacy of high-profile guests (Joan Rivers, Bill O’Reilly, Michael Phelps, Dick Vitale) hanging up mid-interview, often after pointed or silly questions.
  • Joan Rivers Moment:
    • “Are you Jewish?” (Guest, 24:27)
    • “Shut up then. You don’t know what you’re talking about.” (Joan Rivers, 24:40)
  • Bill O’Reilly: Stonewalls embarrassing questions about his career (25:36–26:32).
  • Michael Phelps: Cuts interview short after a joke about Kellogg’s (27:13–27:23).

6. Satire, Journalism, and Performance Art

• Juggling Parody with Purpose (29:48–33:21):
  • Balance between trolling and genuine reporting.
  • Pablo discusses journalism as “modern art” and performance—sometimes baiting guests as critique of the transactional nature of sports PR (Ryan Howard/Jared from Subway bit, 30:26–33:21).
  • Notable quote (Pablo): “People don’t pay attention unless you grab their attention…you need to do things that are not challenging and dangerous with people such that they can’t escape it.” (31:33)

7. Why “Being Different” Matters

• Booking Trouble: Their anti-formulaic approach makes it tough to book the usual “celebrity tour” guests; instead, they seek those who “get” the show’s style (33:21–36:05).
• On Journalism’s Financial Realities (41:55–44:42):
  • Dan explains Meadowlark’s commitment to independence and why the company tries to shield editorial work from business interests.
  • Notable quote (Dan): “Journalism is no longer a good business... DraftKings allows us to be 100% independent. Not 99% independent.” (44:42)

8. The Value and Cost of Protection

• Dan as “Human Wall” (42:32–44:42):
  • Dan positions himself as a “wall” protecting journalists from meddling business pressures, echoing the old “church and state” ideal at ESPN.

9. Meta-Closure: The Show’s Mission and Legacy

• First Episode Flashback (37:13–40:18):
  • Pablo started PTFO by putting Dan in the “chair of discomfort,” showing the show’s reflexive willingness to challenge itself.
• Dan and Pablo Reflect on Freedom, Safety, and Meaning:
  • Chris Cody: “Why do we work? To help people I care about be most themselves in a safe space.” (41:55)
  • Producer: “I can call you fat, but I also feel extremely safe in your bosom... That’s why I love you.” (41:55)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Show’s Origins

• Dan: “You thought it was twins. It was just one giant self-absorbed noggin.” (05:29)
• Chris: “I would say it ended up being a huge favor that ESPN did me because I never would have even imagined, never mind done... to create a safe space for the people I care about in a world that I now don’t recognize.” (07:48)

On High-Profile Hang Ups

• Joan Rivers: “Are you Jewish?... Shut up then. You don’t know what you’re talking about.” (24:27–24:40)
• Bill O’Reilly: “Nope. I think we've been an honest purveyor of the news... If not, we'll say goodbye.” (25:36–26:10)

On Journalism, Business, and Independence

• Dan: “Pride of this is why we do what we do.” (44:42)
• Dan: “Free is expensive. And the way you use the word principle, we have seen principles (p-r-i-n-c-i-p-l-e-s) le contaminated by ‘principal’ (p-a-l) because the newsroom is now being run by billionaires.” (44:42)

On Safety and Company Culture

• Producer: “I feel super safe. I mean, you said it, Dan. ...There’s a lot of range there, and that’s why I love you.” (41:55)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |------------|---------------------------------------------------------| | 03:06-08:32| Meadowlark & PTFO Origin Stories—ESPN Breakup | | 09:27-12:24| Battery Stunt: ESPN Playpen Journalism | | 16:04-19:23| "You're Welcome, LeBron" Billboard Incident | | 21:37-29:48| Hang-Up Hall of Fame: Joan Rivers, Bill O'Reilly, etc. | | 29:48-33:21| Absurdity & Performance: Ryan Howard / Jared from Subway| | 33:21-36:05| Guest-Booking Headaches & Anti-Hype | | 37:13-40:18| Meta-Show Inception: Dan in the Chair of Discomfort | | 41:55-44:42| Journalism, Safety, Meaning, and Company Culture |

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Flow & Tone

The episode is deeply self-referential, trading between playful nostalgia and earnest reflection. The hosts maintain their trademark blend of irreverence and seriousness, peppering the reflection with insider stories, jokes about past misbehavior, and honest talk about the precariousness and value of independent journalism.

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For Newcomers: What You’ll Learn

• How PTFO and Meadowlark Media trace their DNA directly to the defiant, oddball traditions of the Dan Le Batard Show.
• The stakes, risks, and occasional silliness of challenging “the establishment” from inside (and then outside) the largest sports network.
• The mechanics behind the show’s blend of hard-hitting journalism and self-parody—and, by example, why very few media companies manage to pull it off.
• The genuine bonds of loyalty and trust underpinning the Meadowlark/ PTFO ethos: protection fosters creative freedom.

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In a Nutshell

"Who is going to pull a Pablo Torre on Pablo Torre?"—In this episode, Pablo answers with total transparency, revealing the show and company’s internal logic, the cultural rebellion it embodies, and the ongoing necessity of being both “smart” and “dumb,” fearless and self-mocking, investigative and absurd in order to survive (and matter) in today’s media landscape. The real answer: PTFO pulls its own strings, makes fun of itself, and risks everything because Dan (and Meadowlark) insist on protecting its freedom—no matter the cost.

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Episode perfect for: Fans of media inside baseball, sports journalism, or anyone curious about how principled mischief and journalism can coexist—and why that matters.

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“Pablo Torre Finds Out represents the things in my career that I am proudest of having care taken by him. ... It represents the modern evolution of all of my sensibilities.”
—Dan Le Batard (21:37)

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Bottom line: A rare, candid, and funny trip through the DNA of modern sports journalism mischief, and the invisible walls that still matter.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. Presented by Ebay Live, I am Pablo Torre, and today you're going to find out what this sound is.

[Caller or Guest]

Are you Jewish?

[Chris Cody]

I am not.

[Caller or Guest]

Shut up then. You don't know what you're talking about.

[TurboTax Advertiser]

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[Hayden]

Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

[Stephen]

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but call me the Smash Daddy.

[Hayden]

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Stephen here has not read Mistborn before.

[Stephen]

That's right.

[Dan LeBatard]

Hey.

[TurboTax Advertiser]

Hey.

[Stephen]

So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

[Hayden]

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next.

[Pablo Torre]

Spoiler alert.

[Hayden]

He'll be wrong.

[Stephen]

News flash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday and you can find Fantasy fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.

[Pablo Torre]

So before we jump into today's episode, a quick shout out to our sponsor, eBay Live. EBay Live is where real time excitement meets rare, exclusive, hard to find cards, collectibles, sneakers, watches, and so much more. You can bid in live auctions, catch exclusive drops, buy directly from trusted sellers. While it is all happening live and it feels fun and interactive, like a show, not just shopping with great hosts, creators and streamers. So download the ebay app and tap the ebay Live button to tune in. Today.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

I'm on the Smart Show.

[Chris Cody]

Oh, God, that crushes me. Crushes me.

[Pablo Torre]

How do you feel, Dan, hearing your producer Chris Cody say that phrase as a way of introducing.

[Chris Cody]

He doesn't have that kind of jubilance about working on the show that has built everything, everything. Here he's got a jubilance about his debut voyage on. Pablo Torre finds out. Look at how excited he is. I'm on the Smart Show.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

What are we finding out today?

[Pablo Torre]

It's good to see how happy Chris is to be investigating journalistically. The reason I wanted to do this is because we get questions here. Pablo Tori finds out and one of the questions is from a. I want to just get her name correct. It's from a listener named Jordan Hudson. And in November, this is November 26, 2025, 11:56am Eastern. Jordan Hudson said, quote, who funds PTFO, question mark. Who is going to pull a Pablo Torre on Pablo Torre question mark?

[Chris Cody]

Yeah. If people do not know how all of this was birthed. Chris Cody, in some ways, is ground zero on everything it is that we're doing here. Him in his be staring at his ceiling when espn, unbeknownst to me, had already told him they were letting him go. He's scared about his future. His father, mentor of mine, one of my best friends, comes in the room and says, well, Dan's not gonna let them fire you. That Dan's not gonna let that happen. And that's him having more confidence in me than I had in me at that time.

[Pablo Torre]

I have Chris in a race car bed. Is that what the picture you're painting of like Greg Cody, longtime Miami Herald columnist, legend in South Florida ment Dan Leardard coming into the room of his son Chris, aforementioned Chris is in pajamas. You're in PJs.

[Chris Cody]

It wasn't a room in the house. Although you can be forgiven for thinking that he was in his own room and his father had called him. But I've known Chris since he had the equivalent of a race car bed. I'm going to guess I've known Chris since he was 6 years old, 5 years old.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

Yeah. I have memories of you coming into my house and eating chips and salsa at a very young age.

[Chris Cody]

Tostitos. Those Tostitos were so good. Earlene always kept them stocked. And I would just come over. Yeah, I've known Chris for. I've known Chris and his father for more than a Quarter of a century.

[Pablo Torre]

And so for people who don't know the origin story of a company called Meadowlark Media, you may know that I have this partnership. We have this partnership with the New York Times and the Athletic, very Fancy, the Gray lady, all of that stuff. But if you just like joined the audience of ptfo, the alleged smart show, you should know the birth canal from which we emerged to keep the metaphor of like painful pregnancy.

[Chris Cody]

This, this was a painful labor.

[Pablo Torre]

You thought it was twins. It was just one giant self absorbed noggin. I mean, Dan, the origin story of Meadowlark is the origin story not just of the Dan LeBatard show, which I hope people have some sense of, but it's the exit of the Dan LeBatard show from ESPN. Whatever we do here in which we stir up and investigate things, it has its roots in a show I fell in love with until the show abandoned me as I remained at ESPN actually in 2020.

[Chris Cody]

Well, you say the show abandoned you, but what happened at ESPN is that the president of ESPN left in an extortion scandal. And I had not realized the amount of protection and cover he had been providing for us as an entity. Because as he left, things started happening to me professionally that had never happened before, where I had always had a very simple relationship with all my employers. I do my job well. You keep rewarding me for doing my job well. I get to hire and help my friends in order for all of us to do our job well. But as soon as John Skipper left ESPN and he came over and became the CEO of Metal Arc, helping us create the business of this and getting the DraftKings deal that is a pioneering deal in the industry, I realized that we were in trouble. And I did the last straw on that. For people who do not know, there were a number of things politically happening. I wasn't allowed to talk about the things that I wanted to. There was interference, there were issues. And then the last straw on that was during layoffs. One time they just come in and didn't even tell me they were letting go of my best friend's son and nobody was even informing me until after it happened. And so I rehired him at a dollar more than whatever it is that they were paying him. And I kept him on air. And that's when the whole thing just blew up.

[Pablo Torre]

What was the job that Chris had when he was rehired? Chris, what was your job?

[Chris Cody]

He was so bad at it. He was so bad at it. He was so bad at it. He was my assistant Allegedly. But I couldn't get a hold of him.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

Yeah, that was not my strength. That I'm way better at my job now.

[Pablo Torre]

Believe it or not, the way to prove that ESPN made a mistake firing Chris was for Dan to put him in a job in which he was absolutely terrible.

[Chris Cody]

The thing about that, though, is that as a symbol or a hood ornament on what we're doing, I would say it ended up being a huge favor that ESPN did me because I never would have even imagined, Never mind done. I never would have imagined doing any of what happened next, which is to create a safe space for the people I care about and the things I care about. About in a world that I now don't recognize and didn't see coming because it's so unsafe. I did not see any of this happening five years ago. When I say any of it, I mean this company, but I mean America too. I did not see any of this coming and happening to the media.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, I think it's really important to point out that, like, why do I feel protected and. And certainly funded, but also emboldened to take on figures that have a lot more money than all of us combined multiple times over in billionaire owners and at times the actual US Government and various celebrities, on and on and on, is because of the stuff that Dan actually was, like, kind of coercing Chris to do while you guys were at espn. Like, that was. The spirit was even inside of the company that was paying you. You would be willing to do things that made it uncomfortable for those people who were in charge. And so the thing I think of is a video that is not even of Chris. It's of Chris dressed as a battery. I'd like to play that for everybody who's not seen this before.

[Chris Cody]

I've got a battery back there. It is a corporate sponsor. I want to, on air, take that battery down there myself and stand in the crowd behind first take. Billy and Stugots can handle whatever it is that we have to do there. I want to do that. Do I have permission to take. I want to put in the first take shot. Both me. I'm not asking. I'm. I'm asking your assessment.

[Caller or Guest]

Dude.

[Chris Cody]

Dude.

[Unidentified Host or Commentator]

Is the authority given to me as eternal yes man to one day in Levitard. Knock yourself out, pal.

[Chris Cody]

All right, let's go. Battery. We're going down there. Chris, you helped the battery get down there.

[Unidentified Host or Commentator]

The battery has entered the shot.

[Chris Cody]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Okay.

[Dan LeBatard]

Wow.

[Unidentified Host or Commentator]

They have cut away. They have Derek Henry on first take right now. This is not terrestrial Radio norms where you tell your audience to tune away supplementally if you watch. There is a battery and a Dan

[Chris Cody]

Levitar at a bar jiggling.

[Unidentified Host or Commentator]

I believe ordering a drink in front of some bikini beachgoers that are sitting at the edge of the Clevelander pool is amazing. The visual. Oh, there was a producer trying to stop Dan LeBatard.

[Chris Cody]

Oh, no.

[Pablo Torre]

This is getting testy. Oh, my God. Dan is in his face. Oh, boy. Yeah.

[Chris Cody]

Are you all right? This is a better idea. Forget about a happy place. Play by play of Dan and the security guard.

[Unidentified Host or Commentator]

Oh, my. This is awkward as I'll get out.

[Bleacher Report Advertiser]

All right.

[Chris Cody]

So me and Billy.

[Pablo Torre]

This is the absolute strangest.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

I remember that so vividly.

[Pablo Torre]

Cannot, cannot underestimate how many bikini clad beachgoers or whatever Mike Ryan said there were actually at the edge of the pool right in front of Chris, also teetering on the edge of many things at that point in his life, it seems.

[Chris Cody]

The thing that I remember there, and Chris is doing the happy hands of the battery now, is that there was a black screen in front of his face. And I could see out of the side of my eye as I was yelling at the security guard that. That he looked terrified inside of the costume. But there was no evidence of that because his hands kept moving happily the way a mascot does. So he stayed in character as a mascot, but he was indeed scared, correct?

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

Oh, I was very scared. What I remember most about that was in the stairwell before we walked down. I, Dan kind of just checked in with me of like, hey, we're going down here. But you're cool. Like, you're good with this, right? And I hit him with, like, the bad boys, Dan. We ride together, we die together. Like, I legitimately said that verbatim. I'm like, I'm in this with you. Let's go.

[Chris Cody]

You know what I was actually pissed off about there? It's the first take came down here, and I'd been asking for years to have our staff be able to have some of the continental breakfast that they put out. And they told me it's 11 a day. Each person, Dan, if you want to do that, then first take comes down here and they just start eating all the muffins, and they don't have to pay for anything. And so that's where it started. And then they wouldn't let us interact with their show. And so I just got pissed off and made a mess.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, you made a mountain out of a muffin. If you think ebay is just a marketplace, you are missing a whole side of it. Ebay Live is where real time excitement meets rare exclusive heart. To find cards, collectibles, sneakers, watches and so much more. You can bid in live auctions, catch exclusive drops and buy directly from trusted sellers. While it is all happening live and it feels like a show, not just shopping with great hosts, creators and streamers. Stream, shop and score by downloading the ebay app and tapping the Ebay Live button right under the search bar. This episode of Pablo Torre Finds out is brought to you by Best Western Hotels and Resorts. Because look, we all took a spring break trip back in college. Big group of friends packed into a small room getting no sleep. But spring break is not what it used to be. It is even better. Adult spring break should be relaxing and rewarding a few friends in their own beds enjoying simpler getaways and meaningful breaks. Whether you want to visit a city you've never been to or just get away to the great outdoors, a trip doesn't have to have a ton of planning. It can just be a quick last minute break from all of the insanity that comes with daily life in 2026. And whenever you need a getaway, Best Western is the place for you. With over 4,000 properties around the world, you can find a Best Western basically anywhere you want to go. This spring, stay three nights and get a $50 Best Western gift card. Visit BestWestern.com for complete terms and conditions. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. That's Best Western.

[Caller or Guest]

Best

[Pablo Torre]

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[Chris Cody]

that I remember that was sort of the starting point on it? We hadn't been there very long. It was a funny one in retrospect, because of everything I'm about to tell you, which is during a quaint time when newspapers mattered. I was calling around during our show as content all over Cleveland, asking how much it would cost to buy a newspaper ad that said to LeBron as he headed back to Cleveland, hey, you're welcome from Miami. And we got stopped at every turn and were asked to pay like a hundred thousand dollars. And furthermore, they wouldn't take our money when we were asking about it. So we decided to put up billboards at much less of a cost, which, as the newspaper industry falls apart, it's funny to think about getting billboards a lot cheaper because newspapers wouldn't take our money. But we were talking about all this on air, and then ESPN suspended me because they said once we did it, we were going to fly a banner over his homecoming and everything else. Once we did it, they said, you didn't give us any notice. And I'm like. But I was talking about it for weeks on the show. They weren't listening to the show, which is how that happened. We came to get a babysitter after that because they what I'd requested when I got there from Skipper, just leave us alone. They did. They didn't listen to the show. And so we were getting away with things right up until we didn't. And in that case, we offended LeBron, his camp, and literally the money.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I should clarify that. You also offended the general state of Ohio, as this newscast kind of Illustrated.

[News Reporter]

Not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, but six. That's right, six of these. You're welcome, LeBron. Love Miami. Billboards spread across Akron. They cost about 100 grand, and they were put up by ESPN TV and radio host Dan Lebartard. Who lives in Miami. Well, the Four Letter Network suspended him for two days because they say they had no idea what he was up to. They released a statement saying in part, his recent stunt does not reflect ESPN standards and brand. We were not made aware of his plans in advance. Lebatar sent a text to a reporter in response to the suspension, which reads, I guess ESPN didn't find it at all quite as funny as I did.

[Pablo Torre]

Good times. What were those two days of suspension like? What did, what did you do with your free time? Do you remember?

[Chris Cody]

It was lovely. I remember it being lovely. They yanked the whole show off the air. I thought the rest of the people were going to be able to do it, but they yanked all us, all of us off. Those billboards did not cost 100 grand. That's fake news. That guy got that wrong. You'd be stunned how cheap the billboards are in Akron. And the money that newspapers refused in Akron was about 10 times more than those billboards. But I remember getting the call because I was on the beach. I was literally, literally on Ocean Drive in a convertible as they're calling me and they're saying, yeah, you're suspended. And I've just got a giant smile on my face because it's like, this is exactly how it is that I want all of this to go. I want to be anti establishment from within the establishment. I want to rail against nonsense and see if we can be a playpen where people can just do absurd things.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, I gotta clarify. This was long before the movie Three billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri. It was six billboards outside Akron, Ohio. And my favorite part, honestly, about all of this was the newscast, which proceeds to interview another familiar character.

[Dan LeBatard]

Dan did it all in jest. You know, to him it was all good natured fun, you know, it was never meant as any sort of harsh criticism of LeBron.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

There's no news interview that that guy will not turn down.

[Pablo Torre]

Greg Cody, Chris's dad, showing up like they interview the neighbor of the serial killer to be like, did you have any sense that he would be like,

[Chris Cody]

stop, he's so serious. Dan mended in jest. He meant he meant no harm.

[Pablo Torre]

I need to keep on reaffirming to people that one big part of why your show was the way it was inside of ESPN was because you had a problematically fearless capacity to just get people mad at you.

[Chris Cody]

But Pablo, we weren't that dangerous. Like, it's such a silly sports playpen. The idea that somber interviews from Greg Cody about Dan just meant it and like, it's all nonsense.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

We played those sounds for weeks.

[Chris Cody]

Look at what we're talking about here. So there's just it. Whatever we were doing wasn't that controversial. What got us gone at the end, when it became politics and stuff, is more serious. But any trouble that we got into was always silly. It's me selling my hall of Fame vote to Deadspin to make a point. But it's just nonsense. It's just noisy. My. My brother used to call me a provocateur. And you've taken over the mantle from us. People should understand. Pablo Torre finds out represents the things in my career that I am proudest of having care taken by him. I realized coming in to do this today. I've been paid for this, to do journalism since I was 17 years old. So I've literally been doing this for 40 years now. And. And your show represents. Your show represents the modern evolution of. Of all of my sensibilities. Because the smartest people at espn, like you, wandered over to what we were doing, and we're like, how is this allowed to exist over here?

[Pablo Torre]

It was always smart, but also stupid. You know, at the founding of this show, part of the reason why we are, I think, organically grown out of you and funded by the empire you built was we want to make sure that we are also being laughed at as well as doing stuff that hopefully cuts through in a way that. That matters. Except in this case, to be. Yeah. Frank about it. Like, instead of J. Billis hanging up on you, because I think it was you asked, like, is what. What would happen if Tyler Hansboro was black? Right. Was that. Was that why he got mad at you?

[Chris Cody]

He was. He was the player of the year, but wasn't considered somebody who would be a high draft pick. And Michael Beasley was somebody who was considered better. And so I was just asking if the white biases made us look at Tyler Hansborough as less than. I made the mistake of asking Billets this question, though. Hours before the national championship game, he was in maximum serious mode. And I'm throwing him questions about race and why it is that the white player is viewed as less than. Than the black player. If someone with Tyler Hansboro's resume were black, do you think people might say he's unathletic or he's not athletic enough?

[Dan LeBatard]

Dan, Dan, no offense, but this is stupid. I mean, all due respect, I mean, if you guys want to talk about this, I'm here to talk about whatever you want outside of this.

[Chris Cody]

We don't have to talk about anything, but it's not stupid. And you can't start a sentence. Jay, you can't start a sentence with no offense and then say this is stupid.

[Dan LeBatard]

Okay, then take offense. It's stupid and I don't want to talk about it anymore. You want to talk about something else?

[Chris Cody]

No, thank you. Good talking to you.

[Dan LeBatard]

You do.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

He even ended up doing bits for us.

[Chris Cody]

I know they'll come around eventually. You're going to be hosting a podcast with Jordan Hudson. I know you are.

[Pablo Torre]

Why did I mean the list of people who inspired like do the thing, ask the question that you're interested in that no one else may be when they are tuning into a sports show, but you're going to make it kind of nourishing. Who else is on that, on that Mount Rushmore, Dan? Because I have some names that I recall. I'm like, is it Joan Rivers? Like, who's the, who's the. Who are the people that were just like, oh, they, they don't get the show. And you kind of love that actually.

[Chris Cody]

Do you have the sound back there, Chris, of Joan Rivers hanging up on the show? Premise of our show has always been some form of get them into the circus tent. However it is that you get them into the circus tent and then a concession. Surprise them with some vegetables, with some nourishment and be able to go from dumb to smart, have some range and occasionally make someone like Joan Rivers hang up on you.

[Caller or Guest]

You know, guys, I'm going to hang up now because I thought we were going to have a nice talk and I wanted to talk about my coming to Miami tomorrow. And if you think now I'm going to defend that. I called somebody Hitler. Are you Jewish?

[Chris Cody]

I am not.

[Pablo Torre]

I am.

[Caller or Guest]

Shut up then. You don't know what you're talking about. Do we get any clearer?

[Pablo Torre]

No.

[Caller or Guest]

Then shut up. You don't know what you're talking about.

[Chris Cody]

It's very strong. It's all I'm saying. I want Pablo. I was asking her follow up questions because she had called the old poker player Doyle Brunson Hitler because she didn't like how something went in a poker game. And so I just said, that's a bit strong. She hangs up.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

Goodbye.

[Pablo Torre]

But there's, there is something to like the. Okay people you think would have a sense of humor about this? Absolutely do not. Because they come to sports and they're like, ah, finally I get to like have my version of fun. It's like Bill O'Reilly. Do you have the Bill O'Reilly I'm sorry, I'm not just going to throw names at, at Chris, did Bill O'Reilly

[Chris Cody]

also hang up on us?

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

I remember I was unaware, but I see it now. It was in 2016.

[Chris Cody]

All right, let's hear that then. Is there anything in your career that brings you shame? Anything that you've done that you're embarrassed of?

[Dan LeBatard]

Nope. I think we've been an honest purveyor of the news. Never had a retract a story, made mistakes and we make them, we correct them, and it's because we're very careful and we're very honest.

[Chris Cody]

But what's the biggest one? What's the one that caused you the most unrest? Because it's not fun to go through those things.

[Dan LeBatard]

I'm not gonna get into any of that stuff. So if you guys have another question, I'm good. If not, we'll say goodbye.

[Chris Cody]

Wait a minute. What you mean you're not going to get into any of that stuff? I don't understand.

[Dan LeBatard]

Like, we'll see you guys. Thanks for making the time. I appreciate it.

[Chris Cody]

A guy who asks questions for a living. I realized in retrospect, I didn't realize the correct answer to that was, oh, yeah, it's that controversy I had with the loofta. Am I pronouncing that word right?

[Pablo Torre]

Loofah. The loofah. That's right.

[Chris Cody]

Sorry I put the T in there. Yeah, but he had a controversy involving a loofah.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

Now, I'm, I'm very interested to find out more info about that.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah, there's, there's a, I mean, this is 2004. There's a whole series of headlines. Yeah, you can Google that. It is funny that the first television. I tell the story on the show probably to everybody's boredom at this point. The first television I ever did, Dan, was the, was the O'Reilly Factor. I was at Sports Illustrated. It was the Beijing Olympics, 2008. I had never done television before. I'm a fact checker who's way too eager working late at night and someone ducks their head in the PR person and says, hey, Bill O'Reilly wants to talk to somebody about Michael Phelps. And so I survived the Michael Phelps thing only to realize years later that Michael Phelps also hung up on you guys.

[Chris Cody]

Do you go into the nightclub with these Kellogg's products and just drop them on the floor with your face on them?

[Dan LeBatard]

Sorry, I think we have to head to the next interview. But sorry. Thank you very much for your time.

[Chris Cody]

All right, Michael, good talking to you. I didn't even get to ask.

[Dan LeBatard]

That was ridiculous.

[Chris Cody]

What did he call you at the end? He didn't realize he hadn't properly.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

That guy's ridiculous.

[Pablo Torre]

You Robert Dursted Michael Phelps. You. You the jinxed him. He went and had to Mike because he thought he was.

[Chris Cody]

That's right. That guy was a joke. I can't believe we did not actually. Just so the audience knows here, Pablo. We didn't talk about going through a litany of the people who hung up on us before this show. We just ended. We just ended up there organically, as we talked this through.

[Pablo Torre]

Is huddling over his keyboard, just searching for more that you negotiated for.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

You type in the word, the phrase hang up into our search. It just goes for days.

[Pablo Torre]

I want.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

Chris hung up on us.

[Chris Cody]

What did he.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait, you got Dicky V. The happiest. The happiest man in sports broadcasting. You made an enemy of.

[Chris Cody]

Let's see. Come on. How am I gonna waste my time? Dad? Forget.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

No context.

[Chris Cody]

Well, no, I think the context was, if I remember that correctly, he was saying that no college coach would cheat. That. No. That no college basketball coach would cheat under any circumstance. I don't remember whether he was talking about Patino or Calipari was one of them. And that's what happened at the end, where we're like, come on.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

What do you mean?

[Chris Cody]

How am I going to waste my time? Dan, forget.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

Oh, love a landline. Hang up. Miss those.

[Chris Cody]

I do miss those.

[Dan LeBatard]

But, Dan.

[Pablo Torre]

But that. But look, I think for people who don't remember your sort of, like, worldview as a columnist, you would be the guy, as Chris looks for the next person to get mad at you. You would be the guy who was saying the thing that people found rude about. Like, this is what's actually happening in sports. There are people who cheat. There are scandals. There are ridiculous characters who are lying to you. And you wanted to laugh at those people when it felt very rude to even acknowledge that they existed. Like, that was your whole thing as a writer.

[Chris Cody]

Well, you say, I wanted to laugh at those people. I'd shorten that sentence. I just wanted to laugh. The origin story on my career changed is that I get to my early 30s, I'm writing about things. Writing is lonely. I get to pti. I love the standard that they have in the back rooms where it's Wilbon and Kornheiser yelling at each other, laughing. I wanted something communal, and so I just wanted laughter. I didn't want to laugh at people. I don't like Some of this stuff that we're doing here makes us sound like a, you know, a Morning Zoo hijink show. We really were just challenging standards on. Why don't you guys all laugh more?

[Pablo Torre]

There was an interview you guys did with Ryan Howard. Ryan Howard from the Phillies. Great slugging first baseman who had a special co star for that appearance who you may recognize as a certain Jared from Subway.

[Chris Cody]

Yeah, this was hijinks though. You know, I got a guy named Mr. Ryan Howard over here who I

[Pablo Torre]

think just won a. Helped to win a World Series for the Philadelphia Phillies.

[Chris Cody]

He's a world bleeping champion, Stu. Guys, he hits a whole lot of home runs. 55. Ryan Howard with us on 790 the Ticket. What you got? Ryan Howard, you're a world leaping champion.

[Pablo Torre]

What's going on, gentlemen? How we doing?

[Chris Cody]

And that was the end of the interview. We never actually talked to him. We just went to commercial.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

But that's why guest bookers hate Dan

[Chris Cody]

the performance art in that though. Pablo we were making fun of the fact that all these athletes are available for seven minutes and all of them are selling something. They're. They're all there. They're not there to actually engage with you, give you anything interesting. They're there to get their percentage of subway money.

[Pablo Torre]

But this actually gets to like the thing that I have been also fighting as I do things on. Pablo Torre finds out like tape underneath Adam Silver's chair at the Sloan conference, the whistleblower complaint that had remained confidential until we published it, you know, that had information about the Clippers cap circumvention scheme as alleged by two government whistleblowers from inside the company. Like that thing of you say you're doing journalism but now you're doing a parody of yourself. I think, Dan, the thing that I am always trying to navigate is the danger of you are satirizing something or you're drawing attention to something and using techniques that seem to betray your alleged goal here of doing something that feels different and nourishing by being a troll. And I have made some form of peace with that because people don't pay attention unless you grab their attention. Right? You need to do things that are not challenging and dangerous with people such that they can't escape it. They need to actually have it right there in proximity to the characters you're trying to hold to account.

[Chris Cody]

While art is too highfalutin, although I do believe that what you're doing presently does classify as modern art within our silly sphere. Performance art is in the eye of the beholder. And in this particular case, you've got Ryan Howard on. You're a sports show. Ryan Howard has just led the league in home runs. He's your big guest. You've been promising him all show and you've just spent 10 minutes talking to Jared from Subway about the footlong and ham and just nonsense. And finally we get to a question to Ryan Howard and he never gets to answer it Right.

[Pablo Torre]

The question of like what does it mean to be different from what everyone else is doing and why is that race one that no one else seems to want to run? It comes at the cost of guest bookers. Don't want to send the celebrities to Dan anymore because he's going to with them. In my case, yeah, I will say that booking guests for my show has become a, a bit of a, of a dance of like us trying to explain. We don't just try to do the thing of investigating everybody. Some people we just want to have a we want to hang with because we respect and like their work and think they're fun and they get at the show that we're doing. Men's Wearhouse helps you love the way you look. No matter if it's a formal occasion or a more casual thing. Job interview, tea time, high school reunion, wedding, courtside seats, or just a neighborhood party where you want people to say, man, that dude looks impressive. So if you're a man with literally anything on the books, Men's Warehouse has everything you need from formal to casual, dressed up to dress down. And the best part is they pride themselves on impeccable service from the moment you walk in the door. With in store experts well versed in finding you the right look for any occasion and on site tailors to make sure the fit is perfect for your body, Men's Wearhouse really has it all. Suits, tuxes, sport coats, jeans, shorts, chinos, T shirts, polos, loafers, sneakers, sandals, all of it. Get ready to look and feel good from head to toe by visiting Men's Wearhouse today. And with over 600 locations nationwide, they are nearby. When you're ready to love the way you look. Men's Warehouse. Love the way you look. In 2026 businesses are worldwide only. Working with people who are in your area is becoming rarer and rarer by the day, which can make HR compliance and payroll very complicated. And that's exactly why pebble is here. Hire the world instantly and get the support you need to get employees from around the world onboarded and taken care of. I know from personal experience of working with correspondents and reporters from around the world just how complex that process can be. Instead of juggling separate tools for contracts, payroll, benefits and compliance, pebble brings everything together with built in guidance and local expertise to support you. The fastest growing companies in the world use pebble to stay organized and reduce risk. Bottom line, it simplifies global people operations so you can spend more time growing the business and supporting your team. Our new standard discounted pricing at $399 USD per month per employee helps you contain costs. Go to H I P E B L AI High pebble to get a free estimate. That's H I P E B L A I for a free estimate.

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[Pablo Torre]

For people who don't remember how my show was born. Truly like Dan, you came to me and you were like we're doing this thing here at Metal Arc. We want you to do something. What do you want to do? And the first episode, of course, that I decided to do, we put Dan in the chair of discomfort because you, I mean genuinely Dan did not know that what we were doing with episode one of PTFO was reliving the entire history of his phone conversations on his show with literally Donald Trump.

[Chris Cody]

Can you fire my co host on your way out the door? Stu Gotz. I know everyone requests this of you everywhere you go. Just fire Stugatz. Tell him he's fired.

[Dan LeBatard]

Well Stugatz, you are absolutely fired. You don't have it. There's no question about it. As a team, you're phenomenal, but individually, you're fired.

[Pablo Torre]

So you are just actually physically trying to become, like, smaller, and you're trying

[Chris Cody]

to shrink inside of yourself hackery of the highest order. Like, I'm just, hey, real estate television monkey, do your television real estate monkey phrase.

[Pablo Torre]

That's why we started the show. The way that we did was to invert the premise upon the person who had pioneered the premise. In this case, it was the guy from. To answer Jordan Hudson's question, the guy funding us. We were doing this even to him in retrospect.

[Chris Cody]

Right. I'm embarrassed by a great many things that happened there. Your first show embarrassed me more. And as a symbol, you're very purposeful about what you choose, when you choose it. You take years in some cases to investigate certain things. And so you show the full range of. Of what it is that I've tried to spend 40 years doing. And symbolically, you made the choice to open your show with embarrassing the guy who was funding it, which also honors me because I've spent my career in some ways challenging the people above me to try and do things differently. So I don't remember. I mean, I remember how I reacted on air, which was with some embarrassment, but I don't think I said to you anything afterward other than, you know, good show.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, that's. I mean, Chris, this is the key part of, of. Of Dan, right, as a boss, is that because the show, and for better and for worse, because I. I now resemble this. This benefit and this cost, because the show is the most important thing, and because it is only fair to have done all the things we've played for the audience here today. It is only fair for that guy to also be subjected to it. There were zero edits, concerns, objections, censoring of anything, and we didn't ask for it and it was not insisted upon us, which is how I knew from literally the first show that we're gonna get to do some things because this guy's gonna let us do this to him that no other show is going to be able to get away with

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

because he's the only boss. He's the only boss that I could ever call fat. Sorry.

[Chris Cody]

I just wish the chemistry had been better with Pablo there and you hadn't interrupted him. It would have been fine as a joke if you delivered it with some chemistry.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

There was a pause. There was a slight pause.

[Chris Cody]

You tried to get in there twice. You're right.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

And such a good show,

[Chris Cody]

really, that's your Self assessment is it?

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

Up until now, I was cooking.

[Chris Cody]

The reason that we started down this particular memory lane because I did not know we were going to end up in any of this muck and nostalgia. The reason ostensibly that we got together to do this is because I don't believe neither you nor I have done a very good job of explaining to the public what Meadowlark is doing and aspiring to, or to even Chris, necessarily what Meadowlark is trying to do. I don't know if I asked Chris. Cody, why are we here? Both today, not just to do this. Why are we here? To do this. Why are we here? Metal art. Why are we here? Meaning of life. To do work that helps people I care about be most themselves. Like meaning of life stuff. Why do you work? For 40 years, I have worked to get to the kind of freedom that allows these people to be themselves in a safe space. That. That less than ever in media, it seems, allows them to feel safe.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

I feel super safe. I mean, you said it, Dan. I mean, this has been like, I can call you fat, but I also feel extremely safe in your bosom. And it's just like you can't do that a lot of places. There's a lot of range there. And that's why I love you.

[Chris Cody]

I feel like Floyd Smage holding his stepson to his chest at the beginning of DTF St. Louis.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

I'm honestly rattled after I just cut

[Pablo Torre]

off Pablo a few days ago.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

So I just didn't want to talk anymore. I didn't really like you going to me there, if I'm being honest.

[Pablo Torre]

Made a. Made a mountain range. That is Dan's breasts out of a muffin. Yes, We're. We're continuing.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

Oh, really? Me?

[Chris Cody]

Minor penalty. Two minutes for leaking confidence.

[Pablo Torre]

All right. The thing I do want to say for people who don't understand how it is we get away with this stuff, which has legal jeopardy potentially and has like financial cost, is because, Dan, you have, and this is the sincerity of it, you have protected the journalism at a time when other people funding things, they have legitimately, actively run from it because it has costs. So when I say that, like the premise, and this is where it comes, I think around full circle, the whole glory of ESPN was that there was a wall between journalism and business at its best. Right. That was what I enjoyed in ways that I am so grateful for at the version of ESPN that we worked for Right. When I was there full time. It's what you enjoyed when despite the fact that you do all these things up until the very end, they still were like, you know what? We get the value of having somebody who will be beholden not to our business compromise, but to something like his own personal perspective. And principle like that is so important for any media company to have. And so here at Meadowlark, when I do stories that are investigating and in fact jeopardizing potentially if I don't do them the right way, business relationships, right, I do episodes that interrogate and investigate gambling scandals, prediction markets, the government, all of these hot button issues. There is a wall that you have constructed with your body between the business and the journalism. Genuinely, the question I have as I look across the landscape is who else gets to be protected by that? And there aren't many places left except for places that are independently trying to carve it out. As a matter of fact, pride of this is why we do what we do.

[Chris Cody]

Free is expensive. And the way you use the word principle, we have seen principles le contaminated by principle P A L because the newsroom is now being run by billionaires who don't care about the need for separation between the editorial board and the sales team. And all of that stuff has been contaminated. And all of this stuff that we're presently doing is not merely expensive. When you talk about the cost of journalism, journalism is no longer a good business. The way that we're presently doing it allows us to make it a good business because of all of the things that are in play that allow us to have the number of employees that we have. And we have DraftKings supporting something on the front end because we're using their sales staff to sell what it is that we do and allow us to be fundamentally independent. And there'll be any number of people who say, get off your high horse here. You work for a gambling company. All of the money that anyone takes is polluted. But DraftKings allows us to be 100% independent, not 99% independent. We have no partnerships that compromise us. It is at the front of everything. It is that I have chosen here and has been chosen for me because as I said, without taking too much credit for being a visionary, ESPN forced me into this position. I would have never done it if they hadn't pushed us out the door. It's not anything that I was thinking of there.

[Pablo Torre]

So as I reflect, you know, pridefully on. On the ways in which my journalism remains uncompromised, Chris Cody is shooting finger guns as the guy who was actually the precipitated event.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

A lot of blame pointed at me not Today.

[Chris Cody]

Like, I feel like I wanted to hear you weave the tapestry of what it is that you do, because I don't think Chris knows. Like, if I ask Chris, what is Meadowlark doing? The difference between how Chris would explain that and how you would explain that would also explain why he isn't usually invited on the Smart Show.

[Pablo Torre]

Let's go out on this. Chris, how would you summarize Pablo Torre finds out in your understanding as my colleague and financial backer, in some sense

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

just finding a bunch of out man.

[Chris Cody]

He's an investor. He's. He's a stockholder and he's an investor in the company. He's not. In some ways he is. He. He has act equity in the company that like Chris Cody. Chris Cody is technically kind of your boss.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

That's right.

[Chris Cody]

Not just the reason for you being over here, but kind of your boss.

[Pablo Torre]

Pablo. Hey.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

Hey. You're doing great. Keep it up.

[Pablo Torre]

I feel like I can't really improve on that, so it's probably just there. Pablo torre finds out is produced by walter averoma, maxwell carney, ryan cortez, juan galindo, patrick kim, neely lohman, rob mcrae, matt sullivan, claire taylor, and chris tuminello. Our studio engineering is by rg systems. Our sound design by andrew bursik at ngw post digital strategy by bailey carlin and andrew northern. And our theme song, as always, by john bravo. We'll talk to you next time. Foreign.

[Hayden]

Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan. Fellas, I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

[Stephen]

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.

[Hayden]

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic, Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.

[Stephen]

That's right. Hei hei. So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

[Hayden]

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next.

[Pablo Torre]

Spoiler alert.

[Hayden]

He'll be wrong.

[Stephen]

News flash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.

[Bleacher Report Advertiser]

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[Pablo Torre]

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Podcast Trailer Narrator]

Chicago 2011. A cop is murdered. Police and prosecutors swear they have the trigger man. He swears he didn't do it. How far will each side go to prove they're right?

[Pablo Torre]

Like it's just one bombshell after another.

[Chris Cody]

You know, you're like, what?

[Pablo Torre]

What?

[Podcast Trailer Narrator]

The story of a PlayStation, a brain eating amoeba, and the relentless pursuit of justice. Off duty. Out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Producer or Co-host (possibly Hayden or another Meadowlark team member)]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

[Pablo Torre]

Acast.com.