Why Isn't There Tickling in MMA? An Investigation

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Why Isn't There Tickling in MMA? An Investigation"

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out (The Athletic)
Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Pablo Torre
Guests/Correspondents Featured: Dave Fleming, "Big John" McCarthy, Dr. Shinpei Ishiyama, Tim Fargo (fighter), Mason Lewis (fighter), Cedric "Sexual Chocolate" Ortiz (fighter)

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Overview of Main Theme

This episode delves deep into a truly unusual and urgent sports question: Why isn’t tickling used—or even banned—in Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)?
Pablo Torre and correspondent Dave Fleming investigate why this tactic, so powerful in sibling battles and childhood trauma, hasn’t been officially outlawed or really explored in professional fighting. Their investigation takes them from MMA’s foundational rules, to neuroscience research, to viral fight video analysis—and ultimately to direct confrontations with the fighters at the heart of the “Ticklegate” controversy. The episode balances journalistic earnestness and comic self-awareness, ultimately exploring tickling's effect in both sport and science.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Drafting MMA’s Forbidden Moves ([02:47])

• Segment summary: Pablo and Dave draft their favorite prohibited MMA moves from the official rules list.
  • Intentionally placing a finger in any orifice (picked by Dave)
  • Fish hooking, hair pulling, groin attacks, eye gouging, throat strikes, small joint manipulation, purple nurples (clawing/twisting flesh), outstretched fingers towards opponent's face
  • Tickling is noticeably not on this list, inciting the episode's core question.
• Notable exchange:
  • Dave (03:59): “That is the purple nurple…that is a steal!”
  • Pablo (04:52): “Wait a second. The one thing that’s NOT against the rules in MMA is tickling.”

2. The Viral Tickle Fight: Mason Lewis vs. Tim Fargo ([07:43])

• The incident: In a bantamweight MMA bout, Mason Lewis escapes a submission by tickling his opponent’s foot—and goes on to win.
• Analysis:
  • Visceral description and video breakdown.
  • Pablo (08:54): “He’s tickling the ivories.”
  • Dave (09:35): “He gets out of that leg vice around his head…because of the tickling, gets out of it and actually wins the fight.”

3. Expert Testimony: “Big John” McCarthy, MMA Rules Architect ([15:35])

• Background: Big John is a legendary MMA referee and chair of the Association of Boxing Commissions’ Rules Committee.
• On tickling’s legality:
  • Big John (17:25): “You’re full of crap…it was asked during [rules creation]: ‘what do you think about tickling?’ Who cares? If you want to tickle me while I’m punching the [expletive] out of you, go ahead and try.”
  • On Lewis-Fargo incident:
    • Big John (18:41): “Is this legal? Yeah, it’s legal. Is that why the person got out? No…he can tickle.”
• Theme: Experts dismiss tickling’s effectiveness as mere distraction, but the hosts challenge this with evidence.

4. Science and History of Tickling ([22:04])

• Historical references: Aristotle and Socrates noted tickling as a phenomenon combining pain and pleasure.
• Evolutionary theories: Tickling as social bonding and as training for survival/fight-or-flight response.
• Neuroscience interview: Dr. Shinpei Ishiyama, top tickling researcher ([24:02])
  • Explains two types of tickling:
    • Nismesis: light skin-tickling, doesn’t cause laughter.
    • Gargalesis: deeper, laughter-producing—found in humans, some primates, and rats.
  • Dr. Ishiyama (25:09): “Rats do laugh when they’re tickled…but at frequencies we cannot hear.”
• Key brain science: Tickling overloads the somatosensory cortex.
• Self-tickling paradox:
  • Usually impossible, but some with schizophrenia or dissociative disorders can tickle themselves.

5. Tickling as a Weapon Across Sports ([30:06])

• Hypotheticals:
  • Tickling for pass interference in football, headers in soccer, water polo, wrestling (“how many NCAA titles would I have won?”)
  • Pablo (31:10): “A new feeling to dropping the gloves in hockey would be when you drop them to tickle.”

6. Defending Against Tickling: The Self-Tickling Defense ([32:07])

• New research finding:
  • Combining self-touch with external tickling could “cancel” the ticklish response—potentially a defense tactic in competition.
  • Dr. Ishiyama (32:48): “If you touch yourself…the activity goes down. If somebody else touches you, it goes up. If you apply both, it’s going to be flat.”
  • Dave (32:56): “We’ve just changed the lives of millions of little brothers.”

7. Fieldwork: Interviews with Fighters Involved

a. Tim Fargo (the "tickly") ([36:02])

• “Like four [out of ten ticklish]. Even if it’s not like tickling you, it’s still mentally kinda takes you out of it for a second…You just start thinking about it instead of what you’re supposed to be.”

b. Mason Lewis (the "tickler") ([44:22], [46:18])

• On his mindset:
  • “I do a lot of meditation…journaling…I feel like that allows me to be conscious in every moment of my life.”
• On the move:
  • “He had the lock on the wrong side, and I couldn’t break the lock with one hand. And I knew people are ticklish…so I figured if I tickled his foot, he might let go. And he did.” (47:13)
• Would he do it again?
  • “100%...That’s what it takes.”
• Is he ticklish?
  • “Very ticklish. Oh my gosh, you could tickle me to death.” (49:37)

c. Cedric "Sexual Chocolate" Ortiz ([41:05])

• On tickling in MMA:
  • “It’s the art of war, man. It’s not just sadistic brute force…We are experimentalists.”
• Would it work on him?
  • “I don’t want to find out, because if somebody escapes my submission from me getting tickled, I’m probably going to be a little embarrassed.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Big John McCarthy ([17:25]):
  “If you want to tickle me while I’m punching the [expletive] out of you, go ahead and try.”
• Dave Fleming ([32:56]):
  “We’ve just changed the lives of millions of little brothers. Right. Because it’s like, no, no, no. Bam. I’m tickling myself.”
• Mason Lewis ([47:13]):
  “He had the lock on the wrong side, and I couldn’t break the lock with one hand. And I knew people are ticklish…so I figured if I tickled his foot, he might let go. And he did.”
• Sexual Chocolate Ortiz ([41:42]):
  “It’s the art of war, man…it’s like we’re not just fighters. I consider [myself] a scientist, experimentalist.”
• Pablo Torre ([31:10]):
  “A new feeling to dropping the gloves in hockey…would be when you drop them to tickle.”

---

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------| | 02:47 | Drafting banned MMA moves | | 04:52 | Discovery: tickling is not on the banned list | | 07:43 | Mason Lewis vs. Tim Fargo “tickle fight” | | 15:35 | Big John McCarthy on rulemaking | | 24:02 | Interview: Dr. Shinpei Ishiyama, neuroscientist| | 30:06 | Hypotheticals: tickling as a weapon in sports | | 32:07 | How to defend against tickling (self-tickling)| | 36:02 | Interview: Tim Fargo | | 41:05 | Interview: Cedric Ortiz | | 44:22 | Ringside: Mason Lewis’ fight night | | 46:18 | Interview: Mason Lewis (after his victory) |

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Tone and Style

• Irreverent, curious, and earnest journalism:
  Blending playful banter with deep investigative reporting, the episode balances sports comedy with real scientific and historical insights.
• Relatable and self-aware:
  Constant callbacks to sibling battles and personal experiences (e.g., “I am the problem that I have raged against” - Pablo, 05:42).
• Humanizing the fighters:
  Mason Lewis comes across as thoughtful and self-reflective; Tim Fargo as candid and sportsmanlike; “Sexual Chocolate” Ortiz as both tough and deeply philosophical—“experimentalist.”
• Meta-commentary:
  Frequent comments on the absurdity and seriousness with which the investigation is conducted (“Are we just stoned right now?” - Pablo, 07:23).

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Final Takeaways

• Tickling is NOT banned in MMA—and sometimes, it works.
  • Fighters, even unwillingly, admit it can distract if not directly debilitate.
  • Experts disregard its effectiveness at their peril (or, perhaps, denial).
• Science underlines the effectiveness for some, with tantalizing open questions.
  • The episode underscores how the real sports world—and the rules that govern it—often overlook the small, strange, culturally universal tactics of everyday life.
• A rematch—“Tickle Fight 2”—may well be in the offing, with both Lewis and Fargo ready to harness tickling tactics.
• The investigation itself is a riotous exploration of curiosity, sports journalism, neuroscience, and the power of a truly left-field question.

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"PTFO TF2. This one’s for the little brothers." (Pablo Torre, 50:23)

Transcript

[A]

Palo I'm Pablo Torre and this episode of Pablo Torre Finds out is brought to you by Remy Martin. 1738 Accord Royale Exceptionally smooth cognac for all your game day festivities. Please drink responsibly because today we're going to find out what this sound is.

[B]

Let me tell you something, if you want to tickle me while I'm punching the out of you in the face.

[A]

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[C]

Oh thank you. I know exactly where I'm going. I'm going all the way down to intentionally placing a finger into any orifice or any cut or laceration of an opponent.

[A]

Well, with the number two overall pick, I'm taking fish hooking, which is the act of inserting a finger or fingers or one or both hands into the mouth or nostrils of a person, pulling away from the center line of the body.

[C]

Hair pulling is really next for me.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Fair. I cannot believe you left me groin attacks of any kind with my second pick.

[C]

God, this is going just like my fantasy football draft. Okay, Three stooges. Eye gouging of any kind.

[A]

Of. Throat strikes of any kind. And. Or grabbing the trachea.

[C]

Let's see. Holding opponents, gloves or shorts. Damn it. That's like drafting a quarterback in the first round. Ooh, I know where you're going.

[A]

Ooh, I know it.

[C]

Don't do it. Don't steal it from me.

[A]

Small joint manipulation. Exactly.

[C]

Because there's so much that's so open for interpretation.

[A]

The small joints. Just the small joints.

[C]

And what constitutes. I don't want to know. Small joint or manipulation. Obviously, clawing, pinching, or twisting of the flesh, which I think we all know what that means.

[A]

Yeah. That is the purple nurple. Yeah, that is. That is a steal. With the last pick, I'm gonna take fingers outstretched toward an opponent's face. Slash eyes. Which fantastic is not allowed.

[C]

I mean, they've covered a lot here. A lot of stuff I didn't even think of. And I fight dirty.

[A]

You do. You have, by the way, you are an athlete.

[C]

Yes, I was a former Division 1 collegiate wrestler. If you completely.

[A]

I know. I like how apologetic you are in revealing that you don't make me point my finger. Athletic background. Which is why when you were assessing, when you were scouting this list of things you cannot do in mixed martial arts, a sport that I thought pretty much anything, you know, went. You noticed that there was something not there.

[C]

I think it's the perfect combination for this story. I grew up with three brothers, and I was a collegiate wrestler. And then I noticed. Wait a second. The one thing that's not against the rules in MMA is tickling the very.

[A]

Trauma that you clearly suffered growing up.

[C]

Yes. And I think you'll hear us refer to this often throughout this episode, but anybody who had a sibling, an older sibling, has been at some point held down and tickled until they've lost control of. Well, their bowels. No. Well, but, you know. Right.

[A]

I mean, I am both the tick Lee. I am the younger brother to my older sister and the tickler, the older brother to my younger brother.

[C]

You can't breathe. You can't control yourself.

[A]

I am the problem that I have raged against.

[C]

But there is a sense of, okay, so as somebody who's got a wrestling background and you're thinking about rendering your opponent sort of like, paralyzed or overwhelmed.

[A]

I didn't think about this until you brought it up, and I was like, it would work on me.

[C]

It's very visceral. You remember back to your childhood of laughing so hard, and it was like, well, gosh, that seems like it would be very effective in a fight inside the cage.

[A]

We should reveal that this is a conversation that we had about a year.

[C]

Ago, again, that seemed. That's about right for how long it takes to cook these ideas between the two of us.

[A]

Where has Dave Lemming been since he went to Death Row and got nominated for Peabody Award? He's been investigating. Why isn't there tickling? Because it's clearly allowed in mma.

[C]

Does this mean I could, you know, start training and kind of work my way all the way to the top of MMA as a tickler?

[A]

This is a question that I just want to make very clear. We took as seriously as a show, could take anything.

[C]

The first step is, okay, we'll go ask the experts. We both know lots of people on a national level who cover this sport, respected journalists, and I have to tell you that one of the secrets of what I do is the minute I reach out to somebody like this and they get offended or they go, there's no story there. That's not even worth it, or, no, that's. You're insulting people who take this sport seriously. For me, it's like, bingo.

[A]

And the key tipping point for me in terms of, like, what is this episode going to be? Why are we greenlighting this? Are we just stoned right now?

[C]

You must ask yourself that a lot.

[A]

The tipping point was the fact that this happened.

[C]

This is a fight happening in April of last year. It's a bantamweight fight between Tim Fargo, the guy on top, and Mason Lewis, the guy on bottom.

[A]

Yes. One guy's head is being thigh mastered by the other.

[C]

Correct. It's like a reverse triangle headlock.

[A]

And whose head is between the thighs.

[C]

Of that is Mason Lewis, a bantamweight fighter from New York. The guy who is locking his head in a vise is Tim Fargo.

[A]

Be very clear. His groin is riding the back of his neck.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

They're both lying horizontally.

[C]

I feel like one or several elements in this. In what we're watching should be on that list we discussed, but they're not.

[A]

And so Tim Fargo, who has trapped Mason between his thighs. Mason. Mason's up to some stuff. It's.

[C]

He's doing like the Goo Goo Gaga tickle fingers on Tim's exposed foot. We should mention too. Yes. Look at how red his face is. So he's stuck here.

[A]

Oh, the blood rushing to Mason Lewis's face. Face.

[C]

Yeah. And so Mason first he gives a thumbs up. He's like, I'm not being choked out. I'm. This is not the end of the fight.

[A]

I'm still alive. Don't call this yet.

[C]

He tries to punch, which I think any MMA fighter would do, and then he. And then goes back for a second one.

[A]

He's tickling the ivories.

[C]

He's very intentional and purposeful about it.

[A]

But.

[C]

But then. Wait, did you see that? Okay. In all this reporting, I didn't notice Tim, did you see him laugh? He starts. He's like, what the.

[A]

Filming this? Because I can't be more obsessed with the fact that rage in the cage 24.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Is being settled by Tickle. But the point being that Mason Lewis, the Tickler, what happens at the end.

[C]

Of this fight, he gets out of that leg vice around his head because of the tickling. Gets out of it and actually wins the fight. On decision and new fcp, there's a.

[A]

Weight champion out of the red corner. Mason. So Tim Vargo, the Tickly upset by Mason Lewis, the Tickler. Exactly. You, Dave Fleming, are pointing to the tickle as the reason why and the.

[C]

Sort of proof that this theory needs to be looked into.

[A]

So we should be clear also that, like when this happened, much to the chagrin of all the MMA journalists and experts and fighters that wouldn't talk to us about this, the Internet did seem to notice. What you may have noticed is that the. That's the universal language of tickling. Like, exactly. We know what's up, the world knows what's up. But for some reason, this sport doesn't want to talk about it.

[C]

And so that's what I basically spent the last year of my life doing is, is investigating where does the sport fall on something like this?

[A]

And how did Mason Lewis specifically articular come up with the idea in the first to tickle?

[C]

Yes. And has PTFO discovered the future of mma?

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[C]

Yeah, the whole like throat grabbing and eye gouging and fish hooking. You can find those in the unified rules of MMA that were created and ratified in 2009 by something called the association of Boxing Commissions.

[A]

Which sounds very proper and legalistic.

[C]

Yes, of course. But if you really want to know the scoop on MMA rules, you got to go talk to Big John McCarthy.

[B]

My name's John McCarthy. If you're gonna go to MMA, they call me Big John McCarthy, but I'm too old for that anymore. But I started off in MMA at the very beginning at UFC 1, ended up being asked to be the referee for UFC 2 and started from there and continued on for a little over 25 year career and it was a lot of fun.

[C]

Big John McCartney has witnessed the best that the UFC has had to offer over his years. Here we go. This could be another one of those Are you ready? That goes in the final.

[A]

Are you ready? Let's get it all so so far this Steven Seagal looking giant does feel like, yes, the appropriate judge, jury and executioner on what's legal in mma.

[C]

Perfectly fit for this role. But he is actually the chair, the official chair of the ABC Rules and Regulations Committee, helped establish the original rules of the sport and he retired in 2018. Still helps with the rules, but has been a part of like hundreds if not thousands of fights.

[A]

And something that becomes very clear is that Big John not A fighter himself still has a highlight reel. Put yourself up. Get ready. You face me.

[C]

Knock it off, John.

[A]

That was Wayne Lake. That's up to art to disqualify.

[C]

Knock it off.

[A]

Well, will you please go up a chick? Oh, you bet I will. Knock it off. I don't want.

[C]

You're done.

[A]

That's it.

[C]

So I asked this guy what he would say to someone like me who thinks tickling should be used more often as an offensive tactic.

[B]

You're full of crap. It's been this whole thing for years within the sport because it's tickling aloud. You're not allowed to. To pinch at or to grab the flesh in a way where you're trying to actually create a pain, twist the flesh or things like that. It was asked, you know, during. When we were setting up the rules, what do you think about tickling? Who cares? Let me tell you something. If you want to tickle me while I'm punching the out of you in the face, go ahead and try.

[A]

So on the big board of people, I would not want to try in purple nurple. I think Big John does go number one overall, but his philosophy or his worldview on this seems to be what? That he doesn't think it's possible for a fighter to be tickled or. Or that if you're hurt, if you're feeling pain from getting decked in the face over and over again, it doesn't matter. You can't even feel the.

[C]

Feel that it's all that. And it's so dismissive of the concept that he was like, we don't even need to put it in the rule book because it would be so stupid.

[A]

But exhibit A, your honor, is Mason Lewis versus Tim Fargo. And so what does Big John say to that?

[B]

I. I know. I know the exact fight that you're talking about, because I had a lot of people sit there and say, is this legal? Yeah, it's legal. Absolutely legal. Is that why the person got out? No, it's not why the person got out, but is he allowed to tickle while he is either putting on a submission or being put in a submission? He can tickle.

[A]

So he thinks the tickler. Mason Lewis was just, like, doing a bit, Basically, yeah.

[C]

And Big John just sort of mixed this in with all the other weird hijinks he's seen over the last 25 years inside the ring.

[B]

Randy Couture fought Tito Ortiz long ago back at UFC 44. And, you know, in the very end of the fight, fifth round, you know, Tito is, like, working for, you know, trying to hook up a leg lock. And it's not even close. And I was reffing it, and Randy's, you know, standing over him and he starts smacking him on the, you know, like he's spanking him. And Randy was being a smart ass at the time. And that's okay. He can do that.

[A]

That was not a tap. That was not a tap. That's a pat. That's a statement.

[B]

I'm just telling you right now. I've seen people that have done it out of trying to be funny. I've never seen tickling ever stop anything in a fight.

[A]

But this is where he's telling us to not believe our lying eyes.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And the butt tap didn't work. The tickle seemed to.

[C]

Right. We watched it on film. And so it's like, we know this worked somehow.

[B]

A lot of times people will do something and the fighter who's applying the submission hold or any of those types of things will actually feel something and, like, stop, because what was that? And they'll actually. They lose. What is going to be the finish of a fight based upon stopping just for that one to two seconds of time that it changes the pressure. It allows the person to gain a little bit back of, you know, what they can to get them, and all of a sudden they're getting out of the problem. You can call it genius, I call it ridiculous.

[C]

Isn't that Big John agreeing that it worked?

[A]

And Big John, if you're listening to this episode, I am very respectful of you and your work, but you're trying to have your cake and eat it, too. He's saying tickling doesn't work. Except when it does work, in which case it's distraction, it's disruption. It's not tickling as tickling that has been effective, which is unsatisfying to me.

[C]

Yeah, I always come back to the same thing, the big brother theory. Because I think everyone understands what it's like to be held down by your big brother or big sister and tickled to the point where it becomes torture and you lose control. I mean, what does Big John think about that?

[A]

Yes. Your lived experience.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

You're saying to the world and to Big John, these pants did not pee themselves. There's a point in every episode we do together, Flem, where it feels like you should be charging me tuition because I learned things. I learned things I didn't learn in college, things I didn't know that anybody had ever learned. So where do you want to start? With the history and the science of.

[C]

Tickling, it goes all the way back and is connected to and has been referenced by people as far back as Aristotle, Socrates, even Darwin.

[A]

I feel like Aristotle had. Yeah, yeah, he had some tickle takes.

[C]

Well, I mean, right, he. He was wearing a toga and, and sandals. So easy access for the, for the tickling. But Socrates, he may have summed it up better than anyone else in the history of the world. He says and wrote that tickling was a sensation of both pain and pleasure. I mean, that's the definition of that.

[A]

Honestly, kind of nails it. But the question of why then? What is the evolutionary reason?

[C]

There's still a ton of debate about sort of why do humans. Why do humans tickle and why are we ticklish? Yes, and it's sort of all over the board. It's fascinating. There are theories that it evolved as a form of social bonding, as a way of sort of socializing infants.

[A]

Like introducing infants to human touch.

[C]

Yes, as sort of a bonding, sort of ritual. But then there's a more widely held theory that tickling is essential for survival. This is like a fight or flight thing, representing a form of mock battles that prepare juveniles for warfare by teaching them tactics and strategies for defending their bodies in a real fight.

[A]

But the thing I've always wondered personally is why some people are ticklish and some people are not. I have friends who don't feel anything, it seems.

[C]

And so again, we had to go talk to an expert. And the guy we found, Dr. Shinpei Ishiyama, a neuroscientist at the Central Institute of Mental Health in Mannheim, Germany, is one of the world's leading experts in the science and neuroscience of tickling.

[D]

I've been studying ticklishness for nearly more than 10 years, and especially in terms of neurobiological underpinnings underlying these sensations. And I've been working on this heavy tickling, also called gagalysis.

[C]

So what he explains is there are actually two different scientific types of tickling. The first one is nismesis, which is like a light sort of feather touch sensation that doesn't evoke laughter, but, you know, sort of like that, sort of like tickly skin. And the second one is called gargalesis.

[A]

Which is a Pokemon.

[C]

Yeah, or sounds like somebody that would do battle with Godzilla, but that's what we're talking about. It's the sort of more vigorous version of tickling that usually results in laughter. And gargalesis has only been observed in humans and a few other non human primates like chimps and Orangutans and rats.

[D]

So rats do laugh when they're tickled on their trunk, but with a ultrasound, so we cannot hear. So rats are.

[C]

If you convert the sound to lower frequencies, you can hear rats laughing. Apparently it sounds like birds chirping.

[A]

So you're telling me that we have this?

[C]

Would this be us if I could not supply the video?

[A]

So here's the sound a rat makes if you tickle its back. The sound has been converted to a lower frequency that we humans can hear, but the source frequency is mainly 50 kilohertz. Apparently, the rat likes being tickled. The last time I saw a hand move like that, it was Mason Lewis on Tim Fargo's foot.

[C]

So when a person or a rat is tickled, it activates. It fires up the neurons in the somatosensory cortex, the area of the brain that is responsible for tactile sensations. Touch, temperature, pressure, and pain.

[A]

So now we're, we're getting somewhere.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Like, now we, we found our expert.

[A]

Because tickling, what you're talking about, is an overwhelming of the nervous system.

[C]

Right. And I, I'm going back to the big brother theory. It's that, that's what we want to know. What, what is the science behind that sensation of, like, I, I, I'm, I'm short circuiting right now?

[A]

Yes. It feels like torture. It, it can feel like torture.

[C]

Exactly. And that's where tickle torture comes from.

[A]

Again, in my experience, if you catch me off guard, I can feel almost paralyzed. That's how effective or how weak, I guess my somatosensory cortex is.

[C]

Overlay that into an MMA fight. Wouldn't that be really effective if you can render someone in that state through tickling? I mean, that's like a secret weapon.

[A]

That'S more than just mere distraction.

[C]

It's like a Marvel character who can render people paralyzed through tickling.

[A]

The tickler.

[C]

The tickler.

[A]

So at this point, it sounds like it's a pretty open and shut case.

[C]

Well, not really, because we just listened.

[A]

To the rats telling me there's more. It gets more complicated.

[C]

It does. Of course, you know, there are still a lot of sort of unsolved mysteries around, around tickling, starting with the fact that I think we all understand some people are really ticklish and some people aren't.

[A]

That is true.

[C]

And scientists still don't fully know why that is.

[A]

So this raises one of the more existential questions I've ever contemplated is all that, why we cannot tickle ourselves?

[C]

Kind of. It's related to the Idea that you can't tickle yourself because your brain can anticipate the sensation. It's the sort of surprise element is really important with tickling.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Let me, I'll read you something from a study that was released just this past May. Each voluntary movement we perform, our brain uses information from the motor signals to predict and suppress the self generated sensations. Consequently, when touching or trying to tickle our own body, the brain predicts and cancels the resulting sensations, prioritizing the process of external stimulus stimulation, such as those from our predators.

[A]

So in other words, nobody anywhere can tickle themselves.

[C]

Well, as with all of nature, there is an exception, Pablo, and this is an extraordinary one.

[D]

There are several clinical and non clinical reports that self tickling is possible. So one is, this is schizophrenia or healthy people with schizotypal trait.

[C]

Only people who can tickle themselves are schizophrenics and other people with disassociative disorders.

[A]

I'm now thinking about the tickling scouting combine and how there's a, there's a trait that the scouts are all looking for and it's schizophrenia, which I did not anticipate finding out today.

[C]

I tried to warn you this was the rabbit hole of all rabbit holes.

[D]

It's very interesting indeed because in most adults tickling is aversive. It's annoying, right? So otherwise we would have been like tickling each other all the time instead of shaking hands, right? But we don't do that. So we hate being tickled, right? So when we grow up especially. And that's why it can be used as weapon, right? Because it can annoy.

[C]

What about, okay, is it pass interference if a guy goes up to catch the ball and you tickle him and he brings his arms down? No.

[A]

Is it illegal if in soccer when you're making a wall and you want to like, you know, disrupt that in front of a free kick or something, right? You know, you know, or somebody, somebody.

[C]

Jumps up to hit a header. I mean, now they're fully exposed, you get a double tickle, right? You're, they're immediately going to go fetal position, the ball's going to sail out of bounds.

[A]

Think about the entire underwater world of water pol.

[C]

Dr. Ishiyama even brought that up. He was like, it would change the sport.

[D]

I, I have an idea. It's a, it's a water polo. Because water polo, you don't see, you can't see it underwater, really. That's why they're really like doing aggressive fighting underwater invisibly. But you, you could, you could tickle the other.

[A]

Right. Your sport of wrestling, collegiate wrestling.

[C]

I mean, my God, how many NCAA titles would I have won?

[A]

Right. I. A new feeling to dropping the gloves in hockey, by the way.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Would be when you drop them to tickle.

[C]

You could tickle in horse racing, you could tickle in 4 by 100. If you're allowed to reach over and tickle your opponent so they can't catch the baton.

[A]

I just feel like everyone else needs to catch up.

[C]

Well, yeah.

[A]

The argument that is being made on this program.

[C]

Yes. I. I feel like after this airs, there will be sports before this episode comes out and sports as we know.

[A]

It afterwards, to the point where the strategy, the conversation will not be around tickling as offense, but obviously how to play defense against this.

[C]

Now that we've established that it can be used, that it's effective. We even found out for the next step, how do you play defense against.

[A]

Your big brother or and an opposing professional athlete in any number of venues.

[C]

Right. In over a dozen different sports.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. It's pretty fascinating, the science behind how you defend the tickle.

[D]

When I read your email about application to wrestling, I immediately thought, yeah, what if, like, a wrestler feels ticklish? That's gonna be very disturbing, very distracting. Right. Then how could we prevent that? Fortunately, we have an answer to that. So if you touch yourself, the somatosensory cortex activity goes down. If somebody touches you, some of the sensory cortex activity goes up. Meaning if you apply both, it's going to be flat because it's canceling out each other. This is very interesting phenomena, but if you know the mechanism, it's very simple. It's just canceling out.

[A]

Dude is saying when you're about to get tickled, what the tickly should do is start to self tickle.

[C]

Yeah. We've just changed the lives of millions of little brothers. Right. Because it's like, no, no, no. Bam. I'm tickling myself.

[A]

Yep, yep.

[C]

It's a defense.

[A]

It's kind of perfect.

[C]

It is. I think it also proves how it. If there's a defense, then there must be.

[A]

It's also just like the schoolyard insult school of defense. It's like, before you call me ugly, I begin to call myself hideous.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And therefore I am rubber and you are glue.

[C]

It's the self deprecation defense.

[A]

That's right. So now, as we take this back to where we started, what about Mason Lewis and Tim Fargo and the whole reason that we actually gathered here today?

[C]

Don't you worry, Pablo. That's. That's where we're going next. Straight to Tickle Town.

[A]

Only. Boost Mobile Boost Mobile will give you a free year of service. Free year when you buy a new 5G phone.

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Debt is one of the toughest opponents you'll face unless you power up with a Sofi personal loan. A Sofi personal loan could repackage your bad debt into one low fixed rate monthly payment. It's even got super speed since you could get the funds as soon as the same day you sign. Visit sofi.compower to learn more. That's sofi.com p o w E R Loans originated by Sofi Bank NA member FDIC terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891 so I feel like we should start with the tickly yes, because Tim Fargo, the guy who took the L in that match in that fight, how hard was he to find?

[C]

Not hard at all. In fact, fights out of New York and I was definitely not the first person to contact him about this viral incident.

[A]

Well everyone for like the last year, every week people send it. Like at least two people have sent it to me. So I've seen like every version of it so far. And flum. If you are half the journalists that I know and have hired you to be, there was a very important opening question.

[C]

Oh Pablo, I brought the Peabody heat right away in this interview. Like scale of 1 to 10, how ticklish are you, you think?

[D]

I don't know.

[A]

Probably not much.

[D]

Like four maybe.

[A]

So if he's if he's like a four on the ten point ticklish scale, what was going on in that video?

[C]

So even while it was happening, I think Tim was trying to figure that out as well.

[A]

Once I noticed what he was doing, I was like, kind of like, look back, like what?

[D]

What's going on here?

[A]

Even if it's not like tickling you. It's still mentally kind of takes you out of it for a second. Right? You know, like, because you're trying to figure out, you just start thinking about it instead of what you're supposed to be. And I think that's the point. I just feel like this is the upshot. This thing worked. That's what Tim Fargo just told you. On the record. Finally, the question then becomes if that's how the Tickly felt. What about the tickler? Yeah.

[C]

Gotta go to the source. Gotta go to Mason Lewis. Right? He's the final piece of this puzzle.

[A]

And he was so hard.

[C]

Oh, he just did not make it easy.

[A]

The number of texts I sent Mason Lewis after you got stonewalled by Mason Lewis.

[C]

Oh, not just Mason Lewis. His management, his gym, the people who supply him with merch, family members. I mean, I. This. I went all in trying to track him down.

[A]

And the thought was, the fear was that the Tickler would not want to come clean about his. His most distinguishing career. Right.

[C]

And, you know, so we sort of bought into the whole MMA hype of. This was embarrassing. This is not good for the sport.

[A]

He's also.

[C]

Real men don't tickle.

[A]

Right. He's also like a 23 year old. You know, he's. He's barely a pro.

[C]

No, he's still an amateur. Yeah, still an amateur. He's only fought eight times, Right?

[A]

Six and three is his record. Also fights out in New York. And so the question was, will we have honestly just spent a year without getting the big payoff?

[C]

Can we talk to the tickling rat expert in Germany and then not track down Mason Lewis? And then we put all of our PTFO minds together, and we realized Mason had a fight coming up in Rochester, New York.

[A]

Yes. We had to send you on maybe the most luxurious assignment to date. Flam.

[C]

I kept thinking, what could be a worse assignment than Death row in Texas? Well, yeah. Rochester, New York, for eight hours of amateur MMA fighting in the ballroom of the luxurious Wyndham hotel in downtown Rochester. Thank you, Pablo.

[A]

Where dreams are made.

[C]

Not just my dreams, because they had used the ballroom the night before for somebody's wedding reception. So this. I have been all over the world. I've been to China. I've been to Super Bowls.

[A]

Olympics. Yep.

[C]

And there I was in a. The Wyndham ballroom, waiting for the Tickler.

[A]

Yes. Last night it was love. Tonight, it's war. All right, I made it.

[C]

This is 15 minutes before fight time. Welcome to the Thunder Ballroom dome.

[A]

It is otherwise carpeted yes. There are folding chairs.

[C]

I'm not exaggerating. Yes. Think of a wedding ballroom that has.

[A]

A generous points program in the lobby.

[C]

A fighting cage in the middle, surrounded by chairs. There's a bar and a buffet and a humongous display from the local pot dispensary out in the hallway.

[A]

Perfect.

[C]

Of course, the air conditioning is not working in the hallway. So it's an 80 degree melange of BO, dirty carpet, cannabis and hope.

[A]

And hope.

[C]

And hope. And so I'm really glad I wanted to go. I'd never been to an MMA fight.

[A]

I was honestly fascinated by the dispatches you were live sending me.

[C]

Yes. Torturing you with. And my curiosity got the better of me. And then once I sort of got comfortable, the athletes themselves, regardless of sort of what level this is or what's going on there, the athletes themselves, lot of respect for actually getting into a cage to face another human in a fight.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And so once I got more comfortable, I was like, I'm gonna pick out the toughest guy tonight and I'm going to try and tickle him, or at least ask him about tickling. And so about midway through the night, Cedric. I am not making this up. Cedric Sexual Chocolate Ortiz.

[A]

That's his, that's his government name, his ring name.

[C]

He won his 185 pound fight in under a minute by basically just punching another human in the face until submission. And so of course Sexual Chocolate is the guy who I decided to try to tickle outside of the box. Like tickling. Have you ever heard of someone tickling my boy Basie?

[A]

I still remember when he fought to Fargo and he had him in the dragon, started tickling his. Yo, I was dying when I seen that video.

[C]

Like, did you like it?

[A]

No, it's bro, it's the art of war, man. It's the art of war. Like, this is. This is not just like sad, sadistic brute force, man. It's like science out there, man. It's like we're not, we're not just fighters. I consider a scientist experimentalist. We are not regular the people we are experimentalist.

[C]

Okay, but are you ticklish? Like, would it work on you?

[A]

I'm not going to lie.

[C]

I don't want.

[B]

I don't know what I don't want.

[A]

To find out because if somebody escapes my submission, for me getting tickled, I'm.

[C]

Probably going to be a little embarrassed.

[A]

At the same time proud, because I know it's a genius tactic.

[C]

Come on, I'm going to try it out right now.

[A]

No, I'm not that ticklish.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Dude. Career highlight unlocked the fact that Sexual Chocolate did not just actually gouge your eye out.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

He's kind of shocking.

[C]

Yeah. In fact, it was the opposite. He sort of scurried away, I think, looking for human resources to report me. But who knew you could go to Rochester to find. What an amazing quote.

[A]

What a philosopher.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What a philosopher king. What a heat check. A journalistic heat check by Dave Leving. I also like how he obviously knew who you were talking about.

[C]

Yeah. So clearly they.

[A]

My boy Mace. Yeah.

[C]

And particularly. Right, Exactly. And just the fighters themselves could. Could not have been better to talk.

[A]

About without being too grandiose. It's like this is what most sports is actually like.

[C]

Right. That's a great point. The true alphas. And I learned this lesson over and over again. The true alphas are the ones that are totally cool to talk about anything having to do with their sport. It's guys like this who, the minute the final bell rings, they hug each other and they're done being combatants. And they're generally great guys who are very approachable. And he. I mean, it was funny the way he said it, but they are thinkers. They're trying to figure out different angles and new ways to approach their craft.

[A]

Yeah. And much like a German lab rat, they will let you tickle them.

[C]

It did sound a little bit like bird chirping. He kind of did kind of go like that.

[A]

So where. Where is Mason Lewis? In the ballroom, where it happens. And his opponent, with a record of.

[B]

Five and three, fighting out of Dover.

[A]

Pennsylvania, representing brutal MMA.

[C]

He stands at five foot seven, official.

[B]

Weight of 135 pounds.

[A]

He is. Is Mason.

[C]

Our boy Mason. Sexual Chocolate refers to him. He was the co main event. So I had to sit through almost 20 other fights before we got to Mason coming into the ring. And as a courtesy, I didn't want to approach him until after the fight.

[A]

Again, like, it was. It was like approaching like a snow leopard. Almost like you didn't want to scare him off. He's a rare creature to encounter just in the wild.

[C]

Right. And we weren't sure what his reaction was going to be. We weren't sure if he was going.

[A]

To be evading both of us.

[C]

Right. For a long time. And so, yeah, I gave him the courtesy of waiting until after the fight, and I didn't have to wait very long. Even into round number one by Rear.

[A]

Naked Joke and new FCP BW champion, Mason.

[C]

Mason, basically in the first minute of his Fight. Wins his first amateur belt with a chokeout. Referee tap out in one minute exactly. And I think exerted more energy jumping on top of the cage than he did winning this fight.

[A]

Which means that amid the crush of post game press enters Dave Fleming, PTFO correspondent.

[C]

And then came the moment in Rochester where I, instead of hating you, I understood your genius. Because getting in front of Mason Lewis, getting him to talk, he. He couldn't have been more sort of thoughtful, more sort of introspective, more. He couldn't have been more open about why he tickled, how it worked, all those questions we had been searching the world for a year to answer. He was more than happy to open up.

[A]

So I'm very conscious in the cage. A lot of people just disassociate and they leave almost their mind. I want to say I do a lot of meditation. I do at least an hour of meditation a day. And I do journaling. I journal my entire life, how I want to perform each day at practice, how I want to sleep, how I want to eat, how I want to feel mentally. And I do a lot of journaling and meditating. And I feel like that allows me to be conscious in every moment of my life. When I was 23, I was not sounding like that.

[C]

Yeah, that really caught me off guard.

[A]

Like, dear Diary, today I scandalized the world of mixed martial arts by tickling my opponent's foot and upsetting him in a viral bout in the cage last year. I distinctly remember, I don't know why, but I thought that he got me in that lock, in that reverse triangle, it's called. Right. And it wasn't choking me because he was choking. He was. He had the lock on the wrong side, and I couldn't break the lock with one hand. And I knew people are ticklish. People let go. So I figured if I tickled his foot, he might let go.

[C]

And he did let go.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So there's our proof.

[A]

Oh, my God. It couldn't have. He couldn't have been more premeditated, intentional.

[C]

Right. He just absolutely thought about it, went for it, and then felt for himself. Because he's the one with that guy's legs wrapped around his neck, that tickling is effective.

[A]

He's like, I got a couple moves here. I'm gonna go with the tickle.

[C]

Yeah. And I do kind of love the theatrics of it, too. And he. He mentions this about the sort of the showmanship. We were in a boring position. Let's make it fun. Because he did do the. I Mean. Yeah, he was very intentional.

[A]

And so the question is, is he at all ashamed? Like, what does this mean for Mason Lewis's future?

[C]

Or more importantly, would you tickle again?

[A]

100%.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

That's what it takes. That's what it takes. Yeah. Yep. And that. That is when my. My content cortex started feeling like Don King.

[C]

Oh, yeah. We. We instantly went into matchmaking mode and was like, oh, we need to make this happen. Can I confirm at some point in the future, you're down for Tickle Fight two?

[A]

I'm down for the rematch, yes. All right. Of course.

[C]

I.

[A]

And I just want to put this out there that I do. I love. I love watching Tim fight. I think he's a great fighter or two. Oh.

[C]

But there's a key difference to Tickle Fight, too, this time. Right? Tim Fargo has his own secret weapon.

[A]

He is apparently willing to do whatever it takes.

[C]

Would you use that if you had to?

[A]

I should do that. If I can get him in a situation. If I could get him in a tickling position, then I would. If I could get him locked up, I would rather tickle someone and win than lose. But there is an issue here, and this will really affect the betting lines for Tickle Fight, too.

[C]

Mason Lewis doesn't just have one big brother. He's got three older stepbrothers and two older sisters. Mason Lewis is the youngest of six. Are you ticklish? Like, where'd you get the idea?

[A]

Very ticklish. Oh, my gosh. You could tickle me to death. Okay. Yeah.

[C]

Okay, so wait. What if someone does it to you?

[A]

Then I'm screwed. It feels preordained, in retrospect, that the story would always end with the tickler becoming the tickly.

[C]

Oh, see, this is great. You're already working on social media lines for the fight.

[A]

Yeah, the fight poster.

[C]

Which is great, Pablo, because I already measured out in the conference room. We could fit a cage in there. I've already measured it. We might have to move, like, the coffee machine and stuff like that, but we can fit a cage in there.

[A]

We don't have an HR department, so that's totally fine. Also, yeah, we're all good.

[C]

TF2 is, like, off and running. It's going to be amazing.

[A]

PTFO TF2. Fully legal.

[C]

PTFO TF2. This one's for the little brothers.

[A]

Where the last sound that you hear is, this has been Pablo Torre finds Out A Meadowlark Media production. And I'll talk to you next time. Only Boost Mobile. Boost Mobile will give you a free year of service free year when you buy a new 5G phone new 5G.

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Phone enough, but I'm your hype man.

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