Podcast Summary: "Why Isn't There Tickling in MMA? An Investigation"

Podcast: Pablo Torre Finds Out (The Athletic)
Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Pablo Torre
Guests/Correspondents Featured: Dave Fleming, "Big John" McCarthy, Dr. Shinpei Ishiyama, Tim Fargo (fighter), Mason Lewis (fighter), Cedric "Sexual Chocolate" Ortiz (fighter)

Overview of Main Theme

This episode delves deep into a truly unusual and urgent sports question: Why isn’t tickling used—or even banned—in Mixed Martial Arts (MMA)?
Pablo Torre and correspondent Dave Fleming investigate why this tactic, so powerful in sibling battles and childhood trauma, hasn’t been officially outlawed or really explored in professional fighting. Their investigation takes them from MMA’s foundational rules, to neuroscience research, to viral fight video analysis—and ultimately to direct confrontations with the fighters at the heart of the “Ticklegate” controversy. The episode balances journalistic earnestness and comic self-awareness, ultimately exploring tickling's effect in both sport and science.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Drafting MMA’s Forbidden Moves ([02:47])

• Segment summary: Pablo and Dave draft their favorite prohibited MMA moves from the official rules list.
  • Intentionally placing a finger in any orifice (picked by Dave)
  • Fish hooking, hair pulling, groin attacks, eye gouging, throat strikes, small joint manipulation, purple nurples (clawing/twisting flesh), outstretched fingers towards opponent's face
  • Tickling is noticeably not on this list, inciting the episode's core question.
• Notable exchange:
  • Dave (03:59): “That is the purple nurple…that is a steal!”
  • Pablo (04:52): “Wait a second. The one thing that’s NOT against the rules in MMA is tickling.”

2. The Viral Tickle Fight: Mason Lewis vs. Tim Fargo ([07:43])

• The incident: In a bantamweight MMA bout, Mason Lewis escapes a submission by tickling his opponent’s foot—and goes on to win.
• Analysis:
  • Visceral description and video breakdown.
  • Pablo (08:54): “He’s tickling the ivories.”
  • Dave (09:35): “He gets out of that leg vice around his head…because of the tickling, gets out of it and actually wins the fight.”

3. Expert Testimony: “Big John” McCarthy, MMA Rules Architect ([15:35])

• Background: Big John is a legendary MMA referee and chair of the Association of Boxing Commissions’ Rules Committee.
• On tickling’s legality:
  • Big John (17:25): “You’re full of crap…it was asked during [rules creation]: ‘what do you think about tickling?’ Who cares? If you want to tickle me while I’m punching the [expletive] out of you, go ahead and try.”
  • On Lewis-Fargo incident:
    • Big John (18:41): “Is this legal? Yeah, it’s legal. Is that why the person got out? No…he can tickle.”
• Theme: Experts dismiss tickling’s effectiveness as mere distraction, but the hosts challenge this with evidence.

4. Science and History of Tickling ([22:04])

• Historical references: Aristotle and Socrates noted tickling as a phenomenon combining pain and pleasure.
• Evolutionary theories: Tickling as social bonding and as training for survival/fight-or-flight response.
• Neuroscience interview: Dr. Shinpei Ishiyama, top tickling researcher ([24:02])
  • Explains two types of tickling:
    • Nismesis: light skin-tickling, doesn’t cause laughter.
    • Gargalesis: deeper, laughter-producing—found in humans, some primates, and rats.
  • Dr. Ishiyama (25:09): “Rats do laugh when they’re tickled…but at frequencies we cannot hear.”
• Key brain science: Tickling overloads the somatosensory cortex.
• Self-tickling paradox:
  • Usually impossible, but some with schizophrenia or dissociative disorders can tickle themselves.

5. Tickling as a Weapon Across Sports ([30:06])

• Hypotheticals:
  • Tickling for pass interference in football, headers in soccer, water polo, wrestling (“how many NCAA titles would I have won?”)
  • Pablo (31:10): “A new feeling to dropping the gloves in hockey would be when you drop them to tickle.”

6. Defending Against Tickling: The Self-Tickling Defense ([32:07])

• New research finding:
  • Combining self-touch with external tickling could “cancel” the ticklish response—potentially a defense tactic in competition.
  • Dr. Ishiyama (32:48): “If you touch yourself…the activity goes down. If somebody else touches you, it goes up. If you apply both, it’s going to be flat.”
  • Dave (32:56): “We’ve just changed the lives of millions of little brothers.”

7. Fieldwork: Interviews with Fighters Involved

a. Tim Fargo (the "tickly") ([36:02])

• “Like four [out of ten ticklish]. Even if it’s not like tickling you, it’s still mentally kinda takes you out of it for a second…You just start thinking about it instead of what you’re supposed to be.”

b. Mason Lewis (the "tickler") ([44:22], [46:18])

• On his mindset:
  • “I do a lot of meditation…journaling…I feel like that allows me to be conscious in every moment of my life.”
• On the move:
  • “He had the lock on the wrong side, and I couldn’t break the lock with one hand. And I knew people are ticklish…so I figured if I tickled his foot, he might let go. And he did.” (47:13)
• Would he do it again?
  • “100%...That’s what it takes.”
• Is he ticklish?
  • “Very ticklish. Oh my gosh, you could tickle me to death.” (49:37)

c. Cedric "Sexual Chocolate" Ortiz ([41:05])

• On tickling in MMA:
  • “It’s the art of war, man. It’s not just sadistic brute force…We are experimentalists.”
• Would it work on him?
  • “I don’t want to find out, because if somebody escapes my submission from me getting tickled, I’m probably going to be a little embarrassed.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Big John McCarthy ([17:25]):
  “If you want to tickle me while I’m punching the [expletive] out of you, go ahead and try.”
• Dave Fleming ([32:56]):
  “We’ve just changed the lives of millions of little brothers. Right. Because it’s like, no, no, no. Bam. I’m tickling myself.”
• Mason Lewis ([47:13]):
  “He had the lock on the wrong side, and I couldn’t break the lock with one hand. And I knew people are ticklish…so I figured if I tickled his foot, he might let go. And he did.”
• Sexual Chocolate Ortiz ([41:42]):
  “It’s the art of war, man…it’s like we’re not just fighters. I consider [myself] a scientist, experimentalist.”
• Pablo Torre ([31:10]):
  “A new feeling to dropping the gloves in hockey…would be when you drop them to tickle.”

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------| | 02:47 | Drafting banned MMA moves | | 04:52 | Discovery: tickling is not on the banned list | | 07:43 | Mason Lewis vs. Tim Fargo “tickle fight” | | 15:35 | Big John McCarthy on rulemaking | | 24:02 | Interview: Dr. Shinpei Ishiyama, neuroscientist| | 30:06 | Hypotheticals: tickling as a weapon in sports | | 32:07 | How to defend against tickling (self-tickling)| | 36:02 | Interview: Tim Fargo | | 41:05 | Interview: Cedric Ortiz | | 44:22 | Ringside: Mason Lewis’ fight night | | 46:18 | Interview: Mason Lewis (after his victory) |

Tone and Style

• Irreverent, curious, and earnest journalism:
  Blending playful banter with deep investigative reporting, the episode balances sports comedy with real scientific and historical insights.
• Relatable and self-aware:
  Constant callbacks to sibling battles and personal experiences (e.g., “I am the problem that I have raged against” - Pablo, 05:42).
• Humanizing the fighters:
  Mason Lewis comes across as thoughtful and self-reflective; Tim Fargo as candid and sportsmanlike; “Sexual Chocolate” Ortiz as both tough and deeply philosophical—“experimentalist.”
• Meta-commentary:
  Frequent comments on the absurdity and seriousness with which the investigation is conducted (“Are we just stoned right now?” - Pablo, 07:23).

Final Takeaways

• Tickling is NOT banned in MMA—and sometimes, it works.
  • Fighters, even unwillingly, admit it can distract if not directly debilitate.
  • Experts disregard its effectiveness at their peril (or, perhaps, denial).
• Science underlines the effectiveness for some, with tantalizing open questions.
  • The episode underscores how the real sports world—and the rules that govern it—often overlook the small, strange, culturally universal tactics of everyday life.
• A rematch—“Tickle Fight 2”—may well be in the offing, with both Lewis and Fargo ready to harness tickling tactics.
• The investigation itself is a riotous exploration of curiosity, sports journalism, neuroscience, and the power of a truly left-field question.

"PTFO TF2. This one’s for the little brothers." (Pablo Torre, 50:23)