← Pablo Torre Finds Out
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're gonna find out what this sound is.
- [00:07]
B
And all I said to the referee was, are you seriously not gonna call that a travel? And he teed me up, and I said, did you seriously just give me a technical? And he threw me out of the.
- [00:19]
A
Game right after this ad. You're listening to Giraffe.
- [00:24]
B
Katie.
- [00:37]
A
Jj, I want to be clear about something I've learned in our friendship, which is that you're. You're. You're a sicko.
- [00:48]
B
Yeah.
- [00:49]
A
Like, unfortunately, you present very polished, you're well coiffed, you are a professional, and you're nuts.
- [01:03]
B
I think a little crazy is fine. A little crazy is fine. You know, it's funny what has served me well in life, and sometimes it hasn't worked out, but what has served me well in life is this, like, balance of being even keeled, but also being a psycho. Sometimes that balance gets out of whack, and I've dealt with some consequences because of that.
- [01:34]
A
Okay, so J.J. redick, if you did not know, was one of the greatest and most hated college basketball players of all time. He was the national player of the year at Duke. He was an All American. He was all of that. And then he got drafted 11th overall in 2006, and he played for 15 seasons in the NBA, and now he works for ESPN, where he debates Stephen A. Smith and he calls games and he podcasts for his own company. And he still pays attention to every single detail.
- [02:07]
B
The obsession, right? The obsession. The perfectionism. We were talking in the. On the way in here about the perfectionism. It served me well. My wife and I talk about this all the time. I'm like, I can't change at this point because I've got a few decades now of, like, it's worked.
- [02:24]
A
You walked into this office, by the way, I want to make this clear, carrying like, a half dozen suits.
- [02:28]
B
Four.
- [02:29]
A
Yeah, okay, Sorry. Sorry for being imperfect about the number of suits you were holding to get tailored, because I guess I don't know what.
- [02:36]
B
The pants were a little off. Yeah, the pants are a little off, sure.
- [02:40]
A
Maybe it's not obvious to you as a. As a rookie doing television. No one can see.
- [02:44]
B
No one can see the pants. I know.
- [02:45]
A
Below this table.
- [02:46]
B
I know. Yeah, I know. But I took. I took one of the new suits to a game recently. I was in San Antonio, and I had. And I had gotten the pants altered, and my tailor is. Is impeccable. So I just assumed what a nightmare.
- [03:00]
A
It was to be Your tail. I used to say this a bit tongue in cheekly. Now it's just real. You're a media mogul. J.J. is kind of like Riley smiling at that. But it's true. You're sort of patient zero for these guys. Athletes who got into podcasting and now you have a giant channel and the name of your media company, 342. Can you just explain in relation to our discussion of your psychosis, why it is name that?
- [03:47]
B
Yeah. Starting around my third year in the NBA, in the off season, every Sunday, rather than taking the full weekend off, because I trained like a sicko Monday through Friday, two or three workouts a day game speed on every rep like it was taxing. And so I would take Saturdays off. And early in my career, I would take Sundays off too, and then get back at it on Monday. And I decided I. I wasn't as efficient on Mondays in my shooting workouts because I had taken two days off. So I said, well, I, I know I need the break, cuz Monday through Friday so hard. So why don't I do a light workout on Sunday? And that light workout, what it had turned into for the rest of my career, every Sunday was I had to make 342 shots.
- [04:35]
A
342 is sociopathically precise. How is that the number specifically?
- [04:44]
B
It's, it's. It's actually simple. So typically in a shooting workout, there's seven spots, the two corners, the two wings, the two slots in the top of the key. So if you make 20 spot twos from all seven spots and then shoot five free throws and then make 20 spot threes from all seven spots and then make five free throws and then make three. One dribble right from all seven spots and then five free throws, and then three wonderable left from all seven spots and then five Free throws, that adds up to 342.
- [05:20]
A
Has anybody called you, Patrick Bateman before? Am I the first person to. To break the ice?
- [05:25]
B
I hear, I hear Enigma a lot. That's what I lot.
- [05:31]
A
So I want to figure out how your brain in this context, processed what happened to you. I guess it was May of last year, now May 2023, when the Toronto Raptors, did they call you and say, hey, would you like to interview for the job of head coach of the Toronto Raptors? Or how does that land at your. At your doorstep?
- [05:53]
B
The people that I talk to within the NBA circles, my. My friends, some that were my former agents, people that I worked with, that now are in front offices or coaching Staffs, like, we've talked since I retired about the idea of me coaching and, and I think there's, there's a strong desire for sure. So people come up to me and they'll be like, oh, you look like you're having so much fun in media. And I'm like, yeah, no, no, it's fun. And there are great days. There are bad days too. There's some really bad days. I leave my place of work, whatever it may be, and I'm discouraged. And that's not a knock on anyone. That's just I. I loved every day in the NBA. There were good days and bad days, but I loved every day. I was so grateful for every day. This is a new thing and so I think you have to approach it with some level of flexibility. So it was like a Saturday and I got two phone calls from people that were just like, hey, Toronto wants to interview. Masai wants to fly you up to Toronto.
- [06:59]
A
Yeah. Messiah Jerry, president of the rallies.
- [07:00]
B
Yeah. And I said, okay. It sounds like a cool opportunity. I left that night, flew to Toronto, did a full day of interview, started at 9am I left dinner at 10:15. I had first take the next morning. I've now missed any sense of a commercial flight, so I actually took a puddle jumper from the Toronto airport. Unfortunately, LaGuardia, the customs had closed by that time, so I had to land in Buffalo.
- [07:30]
A
Oh, man.
- [07:31]
B
Go through customs and then flew to JFK. Got home at 2am, woke up for my production meeting at, you know, at 7:30.
- [07:38]
A
There's a surreal, I imagine just mental whiplash from going to. Being at least briefly inside of the inner sanctum where decisions are made that will then be debated by the outer rung. And I qualify as one of these people, the outer rung of gas bags who traffic in absolutes without access to the inner sanctum that you then had to contemplate. Where do I want to be?
- [08:07]
B
There are a lot of intelligent and entertaining people in sports media. No doubt I would consider you to be one of them. I hype up your podcast in this show all the time. When you were at espn, I did it all the time.
- [08:24]
A
You did.
- [08:25]
B
I love, I love what you do, Stephen.
- [08:27]
A
Asian Smith is what I call myself.
- [08:29]
B
That's right. When you are in a locker room, a coaches meeting, you're talking to front office people. The, the basketball intellect is different. So this is not a knock on the intelligence of anyone in sports media. The basketball intellect is different. The, the people that have lived it, like Bob Myers is a great example of that. Right. I think he's brought a. A different element to espn.
- [08:55]
A
Yeah. Former gym of the warriors, won all those titles.
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B
Was my agent for.
- [08:58]
A
That's right.
- [08:59]
B
Till I think 2012, whenever he took over the Warriors. But when I have a conversation with Bob in private, that conversation is deep in terms of the basketball intellect. Right. And so a part of me for sure is like, oh, that I. I got to live that for 15 years and I miss it.
- [09:21]
A
Yeah. That's your tribe. A tribe of, of, of. And I say this again lovingly, of nerds who want to nerd out about the craft that is so specific in ways that. And this is the presumption would bore normal people if you were to actually inspect it and scrutinize it in the detail that you want to.
- [09:44]
B
I have. I have many jobs. We were talking about this before we went live.
- [09:48]
A
I don't know how you do all of that.
- [09:50]
B
I have many.
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A
You're at that point.
- [09:51]
B
Yeah, yeah, I have many jobs. I really like all my jobs. There are parts of all my jobs that I love. The thing that I have found that I maybe love the Most is the 15 minutes before a game that I call when we get to meet with each coach. We get about 15 minutes with each coach. I had one meeting this year with, with Joe Missoula. It just played the Philadelphia 76ers and Drew Holiday had guarded Joel Embiid for 24 possessions in the half court. Right.
- [10:24]
A
Right. A conspicuous pairing of small guy and enormous man.
- [10:28]
B
So I'm asking him about any confusion that they have in their schemes when they're not matched up by position and he starts going in on. Well, we had a couple plays where we had some confusion over switches because we had called 14, which is your SP switching 1 through 4. Drew is not a 5, but he's guarding a 5, so he thought he was switching, but we weren't switching 15. And I'm looking. It's like, yeah, RJ gets it now.
- [10:58]
A
You'Re doing some Dungeons and Dragons. It's like when I roll my 19 sided round and it seems very simple.
- [11:03]
B
To me, of course, like, yeah, no, that makes sense, Joe.
- [11:05]
A
But. But you bring up Missoula, and I want to point out that in your adventures, you're. You're maybe just a hypothetical wandering through this alternate life of coaching. Joe Missoula wanted you to be on his coaching staff. Correct. Like he, he brought you in for a. For. For what? A meeting? An interview?
- [11:25]
B
I happened to be in Boston that weekend for a friend's backyard Party. My wife was out of town. She was at the ranch in Malibu, which is this wellness retreat or something. And I happen to be in Boston. I get a call from Brad Stevens. Hey, I heard you're playing golf with Austin Ange on Sunday.
- [11:42]
A
Yep.
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B
You mind if Joe joins?
- [11:43]
A
Yeah. This is now the Celtics front office. Just having to force them.
- [11:46]
B
He got the job the day before. Training camp starts Tuesday. I joked with Joe, like, I'll never forget it. I can't remember what hole we're on the 11th hole, where Joe and I have now been talking for, you know, two and a half hours. I'm asking him questions, you know, what type of role I would have, what would I be responsible for? Where can I help the most? I'm getting a feel for him.
- [12:09]
A
And.
- [12:12]
B
Austin asked me, do you have any more golf trips planned this fall? And I said, yes, I'm going to Pine Valley, which is regarded as one of the top two or three courses in the world. I'm going to pine valley on October 18th. And the look on Joe's face, and I knew as soon as I said it, I was like, oh. And then I was like, Joe, when does. When does training camp start? When do you need me there? This was a Sunday. And he's like, yeah, training camp starts Tuesday. We need you there Tuesday morning at 9am like, how do I make this decision? My kids are in school. I planned out my life. You know, it's like this is a scene.
- [12:48]
A
It's the scene in the movie where you're in, like, you're in the jungle and they're trying to pull you back in for one more job.
- [12:55]
B
Yes.
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A
Are there other teams that have brought you along to any depth in the way that the Raptors and the Celtics have?
- [13:01]
B
Yeah. I've had discussions and offers in terms of being an assistant coach, staff from a number of teams.
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A
How many?
- [13:11]
B
Six to eight. I'd have to go through and. And really think about it. That.
- [13:14]
A
That tells me that people are like, jj's gonna crack. The book is out on you. He's like, looking. Get him on the golf course and he's gonna. He's gonna say a bunch of stuff. But inside, they see it in your eyes. They see the. That sicko flicker, that twinkle when you. When you. When they. When they talk about highly complicated switching strategies, which is all to say that clearly, very tempting. Clearly, you did not get or take those jobs. And so what are you doing now in the world of coaching?
- [13:51]
B
I'm coaching a fourth grade travel team in Brooklyn.
- [13:57]
A
I mean, I'm a professional.
- [13:59]
B
It could be helping Tatum try to win a championship instead. Instead I'm, I'm trying to figure out how 9 year olds can beat a 2, 3 zone.
- [14:25]
A
As soon as I heard what you were doing, I said two things. Number one, I want to do an episode about this. And number two, I need to go watch a game.
- [14:33]
B
Yeah.
- [14:34]
A
And we're doing both. I've done the second thing and it's, it's amazing. It's amazing to watch you in this setting. Not just because it feels like a sitcom to me, but because you of course, approach this with the obsession, specificity, passion, discipline, every one of those words.
- [14:55]
B
I remember my son Knox, who, who is on this team, who is how old? He's nine. He's in third grade, so he's, he's playing up. But last year he got into basketball in the fall. We signed him up for a rec league. They were playing on nine foot hoops. He was scoring like 35 a game. And we were like, this is probably not good for him. Right over inflated self sense of confidence. So we figured out we had gotten sort of this word of mouth buzz about this, this Brooklyn Basketball Academy and they were doing travel teams. And so I reached out to Geo, who's a young guy from Georgia, came over the United States, the country. Georgia came over the United States to play college basketball. There's immediate sort of connection that we have. He's obsessed, Kyle. His, you know, his, his main guy, also obsessed.
- [15:50]
A
Doesn't feel like a thing you get into for the money.
- [15:52]
B
No, no, no, no. These guys are obsessed with basketball. They love development. They love coaching these kids. So I brought Knox to a, a practice they had already started. They'd already had tryouts. Knox performed well enough to make the team. They did it another month of practice. We started the city league, went to one game and within five minutes of the game I said to Chelsea, nope, can't do this, can't sit, can't watch this. I've got a coach. So I went to Gio the next practice. I said, do you mind if I help out? He said, sure. So the following weekend we had a game. And after the game ended, Gio called me and said, you should just be the head coach. It would be better for everyone.
- [16:35]
A
Would you say that you're good with kids? Would you have said that before you started coaching?
- [16:39]
B
I would say as a, as a parent and as a father, I'm great with kids. I think the challenge for me and I haven't been perfect with these Kids. And I'll admit this, the challenge for me is finding that balance. Because during a practice, during a game, the competitiveness comes out. And yes, you know, it's, it's. I'm not like screaming at these kids. I've raised my voice. I've kicked kids out of practice, constantly reminding myself, These guys are 9 and 10 years.
- [17:10]
A
What does it take for a 9 year old to get thrown out of practice by JJ Redick?
- [17:15]
B
Repeated offenses.
- [17:16]
A
Oh, the recidivists. Yeah.
- [17:17]
B
Yes. And generally speaking, it's, and look, it's tough at that age. I get it. We have three rules on our team. Don't disrespect the coaches. Don't disrespect your teammates. Don't disrespect the refs. And in practice, you know, the coaches are the refs. So just, just play. I'll give you an example.
- [17:36]
A
Yeah.
- [17:37]
B
If I see a pattern of behavior that is disruptive, I find that disrespectful. If I then talk to you multiple times about that after a practice game, whatever. I'm big on body language. I'm big on how you interact with your teammates. I'm big on, you know, just like a sense of urgency, you know, in practice, like, all right, guys, put the balls down. It's. It's time to go to the next thing. Right. I have conversations, I've had conversations with parents. If then it happens repeatedly again, then go, take 15 minutes off. You know, go.
- [18:12]
A
Is that what you say?
- [18:13]
B
Yeah, generally speaking, I say go, take 15 minutes off. There was one time I, I just said, you can go sit down for the rest of practice. And I, I had a conversation with the parent. It was all good. So, so much of how we sort of act and behave is shaped by our childhood. The accountability portion, the mental toughness portion, those things were built when I was 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 years old playing. When I get to high school and I've got a coach that held me accountable and truthfully would kick me out of practice and would challenge me to win every conditioning drill, and would challenge me to be the best player in practice every day. And then I get to Duke, I played for Coach K. I get to the NBA. At this point, I'm like, I didn't play for Stan McGuddy for five years. Like, I am who I am because of my coaches. I feel very grateful for that.
- [19:09]
A
I love how much you are concerned about whether you're doing this right.
- [19:15]
B
Well, I want to be good at anything. I do. But I also want to Be sensitive to the people I'm doing it with. I want to go back to something that I've talked about with the kids and with the parents. This, this concept, right? So last year we were talking about growth as a player and why we play the way we do. And my hope for what growth looks like, where they understand basketball concepts. And so there, there, you know, my hope is when These kids are 12 or 13 years old, you don't have to call a play. They can get into a dribble, handoff, swing the ball, get right into a step up, pick and roll, replace that baseline drive, baseline drift, right? That's what we work on so that we can get to that. So we're having this conversation last year and I'm saying, if you guys continue to, to do this and you understand basketball, you're going to be so far ahead of the curve. Forget all the development stuff. We work on the ball handling and the shooting and the passing. Right. The concepts of basketball, you're going to be ahead of the curve. I, and I said to them, I hope you all want to play high school basketball. I hope you all have aspirations to play in college. And every single one of the kids raised their hand and they said, we're going to play in the NBA. I'm going to play in the NBA. Right. It's a crazy dream. I had that crazy dream. I hope I get some kids, I get to coach kids that play in the NBA. So that's one part of it. The other part of it is they're playing on a travel team. This is not a rec league that everybody signed up for. This is a travel team which you earned the right to be on this team. You tried out for this team. You earned the right. Right. I think there should be a general expectation that you're going to try to get better and you're going to be competitive.
- [20:59]
A
Yeah. This is not you teaching phys Ed.
- [21:01]
B
Yes, exactly. How do we find that balance of making it fun and also competitive? And I challenge the kids and I do it in a way that's, that's positive. And they, when they respond like, it's just, it's the best feeling. Like I, there was this one kid last year, he's very talented. He's one of our better players. And for a stretch of the season, he seemed timid. He was thinking too much. The night before the playoff weekend, we had a semi final because we had gotten the number one seed. We had a semi final in the championship on Sunday. Semi final Saturday.
- [21:39]
A
Spoiler alert. JJ's team is good.
- [21:41]
B
Yeah. We had a practice Friday night, and, like, I had been talking to him about this. This concept of, like, when you see space, attack space, and this kid, like, all of a sudden had a great practice. It was like a breakthrough. And then he played great that weekend. Do you know how good I felt as a coach to see that? Like, I want every kid to feel that. I. I felt that as a player. When you feel that as a player, like, this is the thing that I'm trying to get better at. And then I do it and I get results, and then I do it again, and then I do it again. Like, that's growth. And as a coach, that's what I. I'm, like, doing this.
- [22:35]
A
There's a video that I saw that I want to play for you because I want to put some sound and some video to just you interacting with your team.
- [22:44]
B
We're going to be patient with you, but we're going to teach you how to play fast. Okay? We're going to do the skill work, but we're going to teach you. Everybody basketball. It's two different things. Okay? Secondly, I thought the. The drill we did to seven. I thought that was so competitive, how hard you guys ran, how. How well you listened on the colors. That was, like, amazing. It was spectacular. You guys were awesome. I know this stuff is a little new. We're gonna figure it out. We're gonna do it together. Okay? Pick and roll stuff was great. I put a lot on your plate today, and you guys really responded well.
- [23:15]
A
So ate it.
- [23:16]
B
Yeah, he said, I ate it. We'll give you more. We'll give you more. So we are going to continue from here. That wasn't even the appetizer course. That wasn't even the appetizer course. All right, let's bring it in. Let's bring it in. What we got, coach? What we got, coach? Let's go. Hard work on three family on six. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
- [23:36]
A
Family. I mean, it's a sitcom. The. I mean, first off, the kids are hilarious.
- [23:42]
B
The kids are so funny.
- [23:43]
A
We ate it.
- [23:44]
B
It's the greatest. I. I've said it's the greatest joy getting to coach them. I tell the parents that. I tell the kids that it's the greatest joy to coach them.
- [23:50]
A
You're not talking to them in, like, parent talking to child, baby voice. That's your voice. How different would it be if you were talking to NBA players?
- [24:01]
B
I'm very different. You know, some of the words I may use in terms of how we call a concept. Actually, I take that back. Everything we do is based on NBA verbiage. So that's what I'm getting at. Yeah, no, I, I tell people this when they ask me about coaching 9 and 10 year olds. I tell them I run our practices and I, whether it's good or bad, I, I treat these kids like I would a college team or an NBA team.
- [24:28]
A
I know you're a bit like me. You walk around the world and you take notes and you're keeping track of the stuff that spills out of your brain that you can use for professional reasons and otherwise. And I imagine that the notebook of stuff that you've been collecting that you would use as an NBA coach coaching Jason Tatum or Pascal Siakam or Joel Embiid, whoever else came to knock on your door, you're using it with third graders.
- [24:57]
B
I've got a play sheet on a notepad. I write everything down. I go through these legal pad, these legal notepads. And so I, I, I have an ongoing list of plays. We kind of add things sometimes we take things out if, if it's not working. The first thing I did because at this age I don't, I don't know how many games you've watched, but certainly maybe the other team that you came to watch, I watched one game of you guys. Y the tendency at this age and, and even last year, even more so when, when this was second and third graders, the tendency is for everyone to just run to the ball. You know, pass me the ball, pass me the ball. So the first thing I had to do it was just establish spacing concepts and we play a five out. The next thing I had to do was figure out how to make everyone feel involved. And so each spot, it's just five out delay each spot.
- [25:50]
A
Stan Van Gundy is somewhere so proud is yes. Spacing.
- [25:53]
B
The floor is just named a spot. So the right corner is called the step up spot. So if we call step up, you're the guy jampa who in that video is the long haired kid, he is automatic from the right corner. So any play that we run where there might be strong side help out of that corner, he gets an open shot. And I've told the kids like I'm not tracking this. I just do it with my brain. I don't have like tracking cameras, although we may get those in the, in the practice gym. Talking to synergy right now.
- [26:22]
A
Yes.
- [26:23]
B
Right.
- [26:23]
A
Second spectrum data is coming in, but.
- [26:25]
B
I, but him taking an open shot from the right corner is One of our most efficient offensive plays. So of course I'm going to put Jompa in the step up spot. Then the, the right wing is the ball handler spot. The top guy is the takeout guy, the hub if you will, the Demontes Sabonis of our offense. The left wing is the dribble two spot and the left corner is the backside spot. Allah manuoblu gili, backside action, you know, screen down, triple handoff. Right. So within that I can call now 20 to 25 plays for these kids and as soon as they go in the game, you're in this spot, you're in this spot and the stress is maintain your spacing, the ball will come to you. There's a reason you're in this spot. Right, There's a reason. And so we get good offense. Specifically, it's man to man. I think the challenge for me as a coach, you know, we talk about challenges, coach is figuring out how nine year olds can break zone defenses.
- [27:26]
A
So I should say, I should say that when I watched you guys, you guys played Dwight in uptown Manhattan and I was embedded, I was an embedded reporter among the parents.
- [27:40]
B
Yes.
- [27:41]
A
And an anonymous parent told me the following quote, J.J. redick is on a crusade against zone. And he was not kidding. He was like, this is a thing that has, has become a priority.
- [27:59]
B
I don't teach zone, I don't teach zone because I think you have to learn man to man concepts. So we have like a shell drill that every NBA team runs. You go four on four. Last year it was just basically swing the ball, get to boxes and elbows, shift with the ball. This year we've added some nuance where you actually interchange but you maintain your boxes and elbows. You know, I'll, I'll mess around and dribble, penetrate and make them help and then I'll swing the ball and then it's live. Right.
- [28:30]
A
And when you say that you are doing this, it is you in practice doing this.
- [28:33]
B
Yes.
- [28:34]
A
Which is another amazing mental image for me.
- [28:36]
B
Yes. And so I think you have to learn those concepts. Right. I think there's a difference to me between developing kids and their understanding of basketball and trying to win games as 9 and 10 year olds.
- [28:53]
A
I was going to ask.
- [28:54]
B
Two are not the same.
- [28:55]
A
Yes.
- [28:56]
B
And so 9 and 10 year olds, generally speaking, majority of them now there, there's anomalies to all this. The majority of them can't pass the ball more than 10 to 15ft unless they get a running start or they throw a one handed, you know, football type Pass. Most of them can't shoot three pointers with any level of efficiency. And so running a zone, your bait is a, I call it a cheat. It's a cheat code. It's a, it's a means to stay in ball games and try to win. Because you're too lazy to teach man to man concepts. Right? At this age, certainly by the time the kids are 12, 13 years old, you should be introducing zone concepts. You need to be able to break a zone, you need to be able to learn how to play zone, all that stuff. There's no point. It's the same thing. Like, you know, we have rules around pressing where, like each tournament we go to within our city league, I think it's last two minutes or last three minutes, you can press. But there are, there are certainly teams in America at 9 years old, 8 years old, that are allowed to press all game. What is the point of that? What, how are you helping these kids understand how to play basketball? Now? My, my kids ask me this, why, why don't NBA teams press? I'm like, because the guards are too good. If you put two on the ball in the NBA, they're going to find the open guy or they're going to dribble through it and then it's a four on three and you get a wide open three or layup. Like it's very simple.
- [30:25]
A
I just want you to.
- [30:26]
B
9 year olds can't do that.
- [30:27]
A
I get your point. And part of my joy in watching you coach your team and win against Dwight is not just like, you know, you stalking the sideline and you being very serious, hands on hips, intense. When it was 22 to 6 at halftime, it was also the reminder that these kids are nine. Your son Knox in that game tried a spin move after his shoe fell off. I forgot that happened. And it was just like, yeah, he tried to spin move wearing a sock.
- [31:04]
B
Yeah, I was like, he slipped and fell and he got called for travel. And then he, he said to me after the game, he goes, I mean, the ref saw my shoe fall off. He should have just let me do the spin move without calling the travel.
- [31:15]
A
But speaking of traveling, I also watched you from afar and I do, I do have documentary evidence footage of this. You talking to the refs at length about what constituted a travel. Not, not in that specific case, I believe.
- [31:31]
B
No, it wasn't that.
- [31:32]
A
Of course you recall what the case was because I walked up to you after the game and I was like, so what were you arguing with those presumably minimally paid referees Working a nine year old basketball game. And you gave me an explanation that I cannot possibly articulate with the fervor that you did.
- [31:52]
B
We had a game earlier this year in New Jersey. It was a championship game of a, of a one day tournament. And we were up one at the end of the game and they were allowed to press. It was the last probably 30 seconds when this happened. I'm very specific about who's allowed to take the ball out of bounds. And so our takeout guy took it out. We ran our press break and he threw it into my son and my son reached out with his arm and the ball hit his arm and fell to the floor. He then picked the ball up and broke the press. But they called a double dribble. That's not a double dribble. Okay, that's not a double dribble. So within that game that you came, the same thing happened. And in both cases I went to the referee and I said, can you explain that in New Jersey? The ref said to me, he said, you're right, that wasn't a double dribble. I was out of position, I shouldn't have made that call. We lost that game. When I went to the ref at Dwight School and I asked him about, he said, I have the rule book with me. That is a double dribble. And I said, okay, I'm going to continue this crusade to figure out how that's going to be called for the next eight years of my kid's life.
- [33:14]
A
There is no more clear idea of what you would be like in an NBA game than how you were with these refs after this game that you, I believe, won like 35 to 22 or something.
- [33:24]
B
Yeah, there was a comeback at the end. I, I, we had some kids that were a little under the weather and we were up 33 11. So I, I took our two best players out and they made a little comeback, put them back in. We won. It's all good.
- [33:36]
A
That's right. The show is the next day. We're just unforgiving. But you're right.
- [33:40]
B
Substitution.
- [33:41]
A
Exactly. Everybody was just killing your patterns. Was this guy doing. But my favorite part was after the game you argue with the refs, you walk away. I'm just watching the refs and they're like, they're like laughing to each other immediately because they just argued with the guy who argues on television about basketball, who played basketball now coaching his son's team, that they referee as if this is a thing that happens. Former NBA players coaching nine year olds to the point where as the whistle blows, the first thing that happens is that the players on the team you just beat run over to you to get their jerseys autographed.
- [34:20]
B
Yeah.
- [34:20]
A
A mom interrupted your post game huddle to have you take a selfie with her. I was just watching this creepily off to the side. I was like, this is, this is amazing.
- [34:30]
B
My, my kids deal with it well. They're like used to it by now. I think there, there's certain referees that I don't probably have any idea that I am, you know, they're just like, whatever. They're there. This is why I said, I say to the kids, I'm like, guys, you have to respect. Like, I have healthy conversations with the refs.
- [34:48]
A
Of course you have to respect.
- [34:50]
B
These guys also love basketball. They're coming, no doubt referee your game on a Saturday at 9am and then they're going to referee six more games after that. And some of these guys have been doing this for 20, 25 years. Like respect it. Dealing with parents, dealing with parents, dealing with. There are some. I've seen some crazy coaches. I did get thrown, I got thrown out of a game last year, which is the most. And I've told this story a million times, but it's the most, it was the most ridiculous thing. Get to the end of the game. Pressing is allowed. Right. We're trying to make a comeback. And there had been a few travel calls on my. I feel like my kids, for the most part don't carry, don't double dribble and don't travel around the edges. Some stuff. Let the refs, let them get away with some stuff. But for the most part we get a bad whistle with that because we just don't do it. What happens inevitably at this age is when a team is egregiously traveling all the time, they're selective about the travels. So we had gotten called for a couple travels and two of which I didn't think were travels. And we're pressing at the game, trying to come back and they throw the ball ahead to the front court. And this kid literally shuffles his feet, then he runs with the ball and then he dribbles. And all I said to the referee was, are you seriously not going to call that a travel? And he teed me up and I said, did you seriously just give me a technical? And he threw me out of the game. There was no raised voice. I didn't step to him. I wasn't on the court. I was literally like at half court on my side, on the sideline. And so what do you do in that situation? Cuz you're not in the NBA anymore. Yeah. You're at some random gym called Hoop Heaven in the middle of Central Jersey.
- [36:46]
A
And it feels like hoop hell, yeah.
- [36:48]
B
And so I'm like, do I. Do I leave the gym? But I'm also Knox's ride home back to New York. So I'm like, no, I'm just gonna go stand in the corner.
- [36:59]
A
Oh, God. Oh, God.
- [37:02]
B
Luckily, Gio was there that day because I can't imagine me getting thrown out of the game. There's some games I have to coach alone because these guys are running all over New York coaching these travel teams. And I'm like, thank God Gio was there, because otherwise I'd be like, jamal, Sean, Peter, anybody from the. From the parents, just come coach the kids.
- [37:20]
A
I just can't imagine a more infantilizing consequence for you as. As an adult now feeling like a child than to go stand in the corner for a while.
- [37:32]
B
I didn't even react when he did it. I was just like, okay. The funny thing is that guy showed up an hour late for work that day. There it is. Our game was delayed. He showed up an hour late.
- [37:41]
A
I'm glad we're finally gonna bring accountability. I want to point out that one of the things that you've done in your capacity as one of. Yeah. One of the voices and faces of NBA coverage who play in the league is that you provided a video for your players that I wanted to remind you of before your semifinal game.
- [38:02]
B
Yeah. Play for each other. And that should help you all a lot.
- [38:06]
A
So you're confident.
- [38:07]
B
Play hard. When they said to. All right. You hear what he said? You hear what he said? He said, you know. Hear what he said? He said play for each other. He said, play for each other. I know. Knox said, I'm nervous about this weekend. I'm nervous about this weekend. I'm not. I am nervous about this weekend. I am.
- [38:22]
A
But I am.
- [38:23]
B
Let me tell you. Let me. Hold on, let me. Pet is not coming to New York right now. Let me tell you why you shouldn't be nervous. Let me tell you why I'm not nervous. No. Cuz I got Liam. I know, but this is why I'm telling myself. Listen, I got Liam and I got Knox and I got Leo and I got Desi and I got Dylan, James. And James has Jampa and Dylan has Knox and Leo has Davis and Chase has Bond.
- [38:48]
A
All right.
- [38:49]
B
Leo has me. All right, we all got Noah's got.
- [38:53]
A
Everybody, I just want to point out that at one point, one of the kids was like, can we see Dame Lillard this week? And be like, he's not here this weekend.
- [39:00]
B
He's not in New York this weekend.
- [39:02]
A
Guys, get your, get your minds back on track.
- [39:05]
B
In retrospect. In retrospect, in that moment, they had.
- [39:09]
A
Just seen a video from Damen Lillard addressed to them. And you're like, gave them no time. There was no processing.
- [39:17]
B
Didn't give him any time to let that like kind of sink in that Daniel Lillard had taken the time to make them a video going into their playoff week.
- [39:25]
A
Correct. Not a thing that most nine year olds that said. I did see shout out to James, by the way, because I, when I watched him in this game against Dwight, James slapped the floor at one point.
- [39:37]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [39:38]
A
Is that just a thing you have?
- [39:40]
B
No, no, no.
- [39:40]
A
Oh, they just, they.
- [39:41]
B
I, I, I, I'm not a floor slapper. I, I did it a few times at Duke, I'm sure, but I did. Not a thing that I, Your honor.
- [39:48]
A
I am not a floor slapper. It's not a thing that flies in court from a Duke basketball player.
- [39:52]
B
That's something I taught. James just did that on his own.
- [40:09]
A
After going through all of these games as a coach of, of these kids. What is, what has it done to your relationship with your son? I feel like that's the big subplot here, is that you're coaching your, you're coaching Knox, a kid, I want to point out, I recently saw, I was revisiting this video. A kid who beat Josh Hart.
- [40:33]
B
Yeah.
- [40:34]
A
New York Knicks guard in a three.
- [40:36]
B
Point shooting contest last year as an eight year old. He did.
- [40:39]
A
I lost to an eight year old.
- [40:41]
B
It's okay.
- [40:43]
A
Yeah.
- [40:43]
B
Just saying. Body's a little sore. You know what I mean? Hey, man, you know I was guarding Jamal Murray yesterday, man, you know what I mean? I dunked first time in like 40 games. It's interesting. I brought up with him, you know, he had started in this rec league in September in, in Manhattan. And then he really wanted to do this travel team so he got on the team. I'd been there, let's call it six weeks before I started assistant coaching, but before I ever coached a practice or coached a game as an assistant and then became, I checked in with him. Knox, is this okay? Do you want me to coach you? Yeah, dad, I want you. I think it'd be awesome. If it's never not awesome, please tell me. Because the last thing that I want to do for him. Who, by the way, and I'm not just saying this because he's. My kid is a sicko. He's insane.
- [41:45]
A
He tried a spin move with a sock on his.
- [41:49]
B
His obsession with the NBA is insane for Adam Silver and the NBA.
- [41:56]
A
Like, you're very worried about the young people loving basketball.
- [41:59]
B
You need to just. Whatever you're doing, like, you need to do what you're doing with Knox. Like this kid, every morning, first thing wakes up, I got, where's my iPad? I got to watch NBA. They're, you know, they're allowed an hour screen time. He. I need to watch NBA top 10 from the night before. He. He reacts the way I did to Duke games as a kid. When he watches Celtics games, he's obsessed. We were at a Nets game recently, and Mikel Bridges had this big first quarter. I think he had like 26 in the first quarter. And I was like, Knox, you know, he's on pace for 104 points. And he's like, yeah, but dad, he. The way Jacques Von does his substitution pattern, Mikel's not going to play the first six minutes of the second quarter, and he likely won't play the first six minutes of the fourth quarter. So I just. I don't think the pace evens out where he's going to score 100. And I'm like, yeah, no, but the fact that he was able to articulate that about the Nets, who, if you asked him, they're probably his sixth favorite team.
- [43:00]
A
If you're going to ask any national media member, what do you think of Jacques Vaughn's substitution patterns? I don't think they would have a take as developed as your sons.
- [43:11]
B
So I'm very cognizant of this. I also have not made it a point, but I. I've reminded myself at times. Try to remove your bias. I think that's a challenge for any parent.
- [43:25]
A
How. Okay, let's be realistic about how hard that's been though, because you are. You're a. You're a dad.
- [43:32]
B
Yeah. I think the. The big thing for me was when he first started, he couldn't dribble a basketball. Couldn't. I'm like, he, like. I remember the first practice he tried out. Like, they're doing dribble drills and he's one of the worst kids at dribbling. And then they're doing two ball dribble drills and he. He's never done that before. He can't dribble. Right. Within like two months, I'm like, oh, he's one of the guys that can just drive past his guy every time. Like, you need those guys. You have to get two on the ball. Oh, he can do it. All right. I'm going to put him as a ball handler. When we started this season, I, I was like, I went the other way. I was like, I'm going to take him off the ball. I, you know, I'm, I'm cognizant of this. And like, the first six weeks of practice, the first game, first tournament game, I was like, this is not working for our team. Our team is better when he's on the ball. I wish all the kids could play on the ball. I, I, it's, I do. I, like, I'm trying to figure that out. How do we get the ball in your hands more? But you have to show me that you've developed the skill set to do it. So Knox plays on the ball because that gives us the best option to create a good shot. That's how I thought about this. Right. I'll give you an example of, like, removing the bias or whatever. My big thing with him when he first started, because he is such a sicko, is that he's reacting to everything. He feels it deeply. I didn't realize this, I didn't know this about my own son until he started playing basketball. He's a sicko in terms of being a competitor.
- [44:59]
A
Yes.
- [44:59]
B
He feels winning and losing deeply. And within a game, he feels winning and losing a possession deeply.
- [45:07]
A
And he's not exactly great at hiding it, I imagine, exactly at that age.
- [45:11]
B
So I'm like, we gotta work on your body language, pal. And so all last season, I'm on him about the body language. Your teammate has a turnover. Guess what, Knox? You have a turnover. You can't do this with your arms. Right? You can't do that.
- [45:24]
A
Right.
- [45:24]
B
You take bad shots, too, buddy. When your teammate takes a bad shot, you can't. And then sulk down court. You can't do that.
- [45:31]
A
Yeah.
- [45:31]
B
And so he was getting progressively better. So last year, towards the end of the season, in practice, he just had bad body language. And I said there was 15 minutes left in practice. We were at the point in the practice where we scrimmage, which is typically the last, like, 20 to 25 minutes, and he was just, he like, three straight possessions. I'm like, that's body language. I didn't say that out loud, but I went over to him and I said, hey, bud, you're good. I've talked to you about your body language. You can Go sit out the rest of practice.
- [46:00]
A
Oh man, I wonder where he learned his conduct towards the referees from.
- [46:05]
B
Oh man, don't get me started. Don't get me started.
- [46:12]
A
I, I wonder what Knox thinks about you as an NBA coach. Does he want you to do it?
- [46:20]
B
Knox has this thing where he says to everything we ask him, how was school today? How did your game go? Oh, you went to your friend's house for a playdate, you had a sleepover, you just went to a birthday party. Knox, how was it? It was great. Every time in his high pitched voice, it was great. Just like that. When I've talked to him like, hey, Knox, like, you know, I potentially had this opportunity or Knox, you know, doing this, Knox, what do you think about this? He'll be like, oh, it'd be great now like when he, he knows that I got asked to be on the Celtics coaching staff.
- [46:59]
A
Yeah.
- [46:59]
B
Prior to him being like a super fan.
- [47:01]
A
Right.
- [47:02]
B
Like it bothers him. I think, like I said, no, it bothers him. But I've explained to him too. I'm like, Knox, if I co, like the reason, one of the reasons that I love my job right now, other than getting to talk about basketball, getting to sit courtside to call games around with Stephen A on first take, getting the interview players like, I love it, I love my job. But one of the things is that allows me the flexibility to coach my kids because I've also started coaching Kai on the weekends. His, his games. Of course, I'm much more mild mannered.
- [47:34]
A
There because he's how old?
- [47:35]
B
He's in first grade.
- [47:36]
A
Jesus Christ.
- [47:37]
B
And he's got kindergarteners on his team and they play on a nine foot hoop. So I very, I'm very mild mannered there. That's like the Sunday hangover thing. They've always got like a 9 or 10am game where you just walk in and you're just like, I'm just going to have fun with these kids. This is fun.
- [47:52]
A
You know, I got to tell you, I don't believe you. I don't believe that you have chill mode.
- [47:59]
B
We are five and one since I took over. I'm just going to say.
- [48:06]
A
Coach Redick and I mean this, this was great.
- [48:12]
B
This is always fun. This is always fun. Thanks for the idea, man.
- [48:16]
A
I mean, look, when, when I don't know what actor you want to play you in the sitcom, but I just want a producer credit.
- [48:21]
B
Okay, Deal. It's a deal.
- [48:23]
A
Sold. This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media production. And I'll talk to you next time.