Why So Many Athletes Have Tattoos of the Joker: A Special Halloween Investigation

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pablo Torre Finds Out

Episode: Why So Many Athletes Have Tattoos of the Joker: A Special Halloween Investigation

Date: October 24, 2023
Host: Pablo Torre
Guest/Corespondent: Wyatt Cenac

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Overview

In this Halloween-themed investigative episode, Pablo Torre partners with comedian and correspondent Wyatt Cenac to unravel an unlikely sports phenomenon: why do so many professional athletes have tattoos of the Joker? Through a blend of humor and reporting, they dive into sightings across leagues, the symbolism of the Joker, athletes’ personal motivations, and the cultural forces that have reframed villains as heroes in modern sports.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origin of the Investigation

Timestamps: 05:14–08:14

• The episode was sparked when Wyatt, while courtside at a WNBA game, texted Pablo about seeing Joker tattoos on multiple players (Crystal Dangerfield and Brittney Sykes) during the same game, leading them to notice the prevalence of Joker imagery among athletes across pro sports.
• Pablo: “Seeing a single Heath in this context...it does feel like an immediate red flag, like, 100% in society.” (07:48)

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2. Just How Common Is the Joker Tattoo Among Athletes?

Timestamps: 09:36–15:17

• The duo began documenting athlete Joker tattoos and were startled to find at least 20 prominent cases across the NBA, NFL, soccer, and other leagues.
• Notable athletes with Joker ink include DeMar DeRozan, LaMarcus Aldridge, Odell Beckham Jr., George Kittle, Von Miller, Jamie Collins, Juan Toscano Anderson, and even international soccer players.
• The tattoos overwhelmingly feature Heath Ledger’s portrayal, often referencing “Why so serious?” from The Dark Knight.
• Some are elaborate collages involving the Joker alongside other iconic figures (e.g., OBJs tattoo with the Joker, Prince, Obama, and MLK).

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3. The Joker as a Symbol—From Comic Book Villain to Athlete Avatar

Timestamps: 08:33–15:47, 16:15–23:45

• Wyatt: “The Joker is proud boy number one... He’s not a hero in any way. In the comic books, he murders people indiscriminately...He’s a sociopath.” (08:26–09:09)
• The duo are confounded by the shift: Why would athletes, often billed as superheroes, idolize a supervillain? Wyatt recalls Shaq’s Superman tattoo and the historical desire to be heroic, contrasting with today’s embrace of the "mentally unstable man who fell into a vat of acid."
• Pablo relates it to the confusing modern trend of identifying with anti-heroes, reminiscent of how Kobe Bryant and Kyrie Irving idolized the abusive band leader in “Whiplash.”
  • Pablo: “There is this sort of like larger theme...of confusing the anti hero for the hero.” (22:46)

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4. Heath Ledger’s Joker and the Kobe Legacy

Timestamps: 16:15–21:23

• A viral (and factually dubious) story told by Lakers GM Rob Pelinka that Kobe Bryant sought dinner advice from Heath Ledger after The Dark Knight is recounted and debunked for comic effect by Pablo and Wyatt.
• Despite the meeting being impossible (Ledger had passed away before the alleged encounter), it reveals the deep cultural cache Ledger’s Joker has among athletes and a desire to channel his intensity.

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5. Athlete Testimonies: Why They Chose the Joker

Von Miller (NFL Star) — Timestamps: 24:11–29:59

• Von Miller, despite being a genuinely upbeat person and Batman fan, explains that after ankle surgery left him a scar resembling the Joker’s smile, he chose to accentuate it with a Joker tattoo as a way of embracing both sides of himself.
• Von Miller: “I see the Bruce in me and I see the Joker in me at times in my life. And I need both...to be the best Vaughn that I can be.” (25:24)
• He describes toggling between these personas on and off the field—friendly off, ruthless in competition—a pattern Pablo and Wyatt compare to the “Mamba Mentality.”

Juan Toscano-Anderson (NBA Player) — Timestamps: 32:28–38:07

• Toscano-Anderson has not one, but two Joker tattoos—the most creative being three different Joker actors (Ledger, Nicholson, Leto) playing poker, “dogs playing poker”-style.
• He says not every tattoo needs deep meaning—sometimes it’s just “a bit of whimsy”—yet also frames the Joker as a symbol for the misunderstood underdog, enduring doubt and villainy in the public eye.
• Juan Toscano-Anderson: "When you're in a place of success...you're the wealthiest person in your circle...you get vilified for saying no to people...and I think just the art itself...like, being able to relate to the Joker, it's our way of expressing ourselves." (36:09)

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6. The Joker as Outcast and Undrafted Underdog Metaphor

Timestamps: 38:07–41:45

• Pablo and Wyatt note a connecting thread: athletes with Joker tattoos often see themselves as outsiders or underdogs—facing skepticism, lacking privilege, and thriving where not expected.
• Wyatt: “The Joker is kind of the ultimate undrafted free agent... He’s very much a G League player. And then he becomes the Joker and it allows him entry into the pro sports version of Gotham crime.” (39:50–40:41)
• The tattoo, they conclude, becomes both “red flag” and badge of defiance—especially for those tired of being asked for favors or doubted.

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7. Tattoo Aesthetics & Comedy

Timestamps: 32:28–34:59, 41:53–46:44

• Among the many Joker tattoos, Toscano-Anderson’s wins for creativity and humor.
• Wyatt envisions his own “ideal” Joker tattoo: Cesar Romero’s surfing Joker from the 1966 Batman show, placed as a chest piece, belly tattoo, or tramp stamp, lampooning the seriousness of the trend.
• The episode ends with playful banter—Wyatt’s Batman impression ("That’s having the Joker is like, like, that’s my N word." – 25:41), riffing on athlete psychology, and imagining a dystopian future where everyone has Joker tattoos by birth.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Wyatt Sinek (re: Joker as a red flag):
  “Yeah, that's the red flag right there. Yeah.” (08:14)
• Pablo Torre (on the Jokers athletes choose):
  “It’s the idea... he wants you to see this as a red flag. He’s like, by the way, I’m the guy with the Joker tattoo. There are actually three Jokers on my tattoo.” (41:14)
• Wyatt Sinek (as Batman, to Von Miller):
  “You've permanently put my enemy's face on your body. Like, do you realize how offensive that is to me?... He shot Batgirl. He killed one of my robins.” (25:01)
• Juan Toscano-Anderson (on the Joker’s appeal):
  “Sometimes as athletes, like, we are the villains, and there's a little bit of you that we want to say. But us being role models, we really can't.” (34:59)
• Pablo Torre (on the ultimate Joker tattoo):
  “Only Joker can judge me. Around the belly button.” (46:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 05:14 – The first courtside Joker tattoo sighting
• 09:36 – Realization of the widespread athlete Joker tattoo phenomenon
• 15:25 – Athletes shifting from Superman to Joker/Antihero
• 16:33 – The Kobe-Bryant-meets-Heath-Ledger urban legend
• 24:11 – Interview with Von Miller; his duality and Joker tattoo rationale
• 29:19 – Joker mentality and parallels to “Mamba” mindset
• 32:28 – Juan Toscano-Anderson’s three Joker poker tattoo, athlete as villain
• 38:07 – Joker as undrafted free agent, outsider status
• 41:53 – Pablo and Wyatt debate the meaning, aesthetics, and future of Joker tattoos
• 46:41 – The ideal Joker tattoo “Only Joker can judge me” moment

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Tone & Style

The episode is irreverent, witty, and packed with comic and cultural references. Pablo and Wyatt blur the lines between genuine reporting and playful speculation, echoing the tone of their own long-standing friendship, while layering in analysis of sports culture, comic book lore, and the twisted psychology of idolizing villains.

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For listeners and non-listeners alike, this episode is a wide-ranging, hilarious, and sneakily insightful exploration of why the Joker—once the object of Batman’s scorn—has become a totem for athletes seeking to project edge, defiance, or undrafted swagger in the world of modern sports.

Transcript

[Pablo Torre]

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out I am Pablo Torre. And today we're gonna find out what this sound is.

[Wyatt Sinek]

You've permanently put my enemy's face on your body. Like, do you realize how offensive that is to me?

[Pablo Torre]

Right after this ad.

[Wyatt Sinek]

You're listening to Giraffe Kings.

[Pablo Torre]

I'll go first. 3, 2, 1, clap above the mic and then Wyatt.

[Wyatt Sinek]

All right, I'm gonna start from 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. If you need me to count again, because you need it, I will do it. I just feel upset for you that Pablo has only taught you three numbers. There's so many more. I only know six of them.

[Pablo Torre]

Wyatt, I'm doing the math on this. We've known each other for about 10 years, I think, at this point maybe.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Is that right?

[Pablo Torre]

I think that's right.

[Wyatt Sinek]

So this is the. This is the 10th anniversary of the Wyatt Pablo friendship.

[Pablo Torre]

That's right. Us getting brunch together in Brooklyn ritualistically for like every week for a long ass time.

[Wyatt Sinek]

But wait, that feels like we gotta celebrate 10 years. What is the 10th anniversary? What is that in a friendship? Is that.

[Pablo Torre]

It's a podcast guest appearance.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Oh, actually, our anniversary is this podcast appearance. And if I'd known. I didn't bring you a podcast.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, I brought something that I do sort of need you to address at the top here because I've been thinking about, like, how do I introduce you? There are many ways I could introduce you. I feel like I need to start with the fact that we've never talked about this. Okay, so Wyatt Sinek has been a multi Emmy award winning Daily show correspondent and writer, a Grammy nominated standup comedian and acclaimed HBO talk show host. An actor who's done everything from network TV to independent film. But also today for the Pablo Torre Finds Out Halloween Preview Spectacular, I needed to ask him about a different line on his resume. You once handed a gun to Kanye West.

[Wyatt Sinek]

It wasn't a real gun, to be.

[Pablo Torre]

Clear, but you did tell him to shoot you.

[Wyatt Sinek]

You sure I can't? Oh, I dropped my clip. That's embarrassing. Yes. Again, not a real gun, but really Kanye West. Yeah. When I lived in la, I used to do this bit on stage where. Where I would come out as a rapper named Lil Royce. And the conceit of Lil Royce was that he is the rapper who has collaborated with almost every other rapper in hip hop. He's the guy they shoot in the skits in between songs. So anytime somebody rolls up and is just like trying to do that weird bit of audio tape where they Seem hard on an album. And they're like, oh, let's get that fool right there. Lil Royce was the guy who was like, oh, you trying to come hard? Oh, oh, I got a gun in my mouth.

[Von Miller]

Seriously, we have to work on some real music right now. So you can go and get someone else to shoot you some, because I. I gotta work.

[Wyatt Sinek]

I just can't convince you. Just. Just. Just one. I'm just saying. Just. Just. Here, put it in your hand. Just shoot it. No, just shoot. What about this? What about if you don't. If you don't shoot me, then I'll shoot myself. He was working on the graduation album. If you're.

[Pablo Torre]

I just love the idea that amid making one of the greatest albums of all time, this happened.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. So he was working on the album, and as it happened, he was in the studio, and Common happened to also be in the studio. So I didn't just pull the gun on. On Kanye. I also pulled it on Common.

[Pablo Torre]

It's the sort of deranged behavior by you, honestly, that I think qualifies you to discuss the thing that I've actually summoned you here to talk about. We've been talking about this thing for, like, more than a year.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Not me making a weird sketch with Kanye in common, but what we're about to talk about.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes, because what we're about to talk about, I mean, the. The character at the center of it, that's kind of the sort of thing that the Joker would do.

[Wyatt Sinek]

You have nothing. Nothing to threaten me with. Nothing to do with all your strength. Sure. Yeah. If the Joker was really into sketch comedy, he seems more in the prank world. So I guess, yeah, it qualifies. Sure.

[Pablo Torre]

So I'm consulting my texts here, my text message history with you and this date. August 3, 2022. Last year. It's not where this story begins, but it involves you sitting courtside at a New York Liberty game in Brooklyn.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Handoff from Howard, turns the corner, and the foul flex to modem. Yeah, when I could still sit courtside at Liberty games.

[Pablo Torre]

So you being banned from Barclays Center.

[Wyatt Sinek]

They didn't have to know that. They could have just assumed. Because I'm not famous enough anymore.

[Pablo Torre]

Wasn't because of the Kanye thing or the gun thing or any other alleged crimes that you may or may not have perpetrated.

[Wyatt Sinek]

No, it's just me being a misfit, a local ne' er do well.

[Pablo Torre]

But you local ne' er do well. Were watching the Liberty, the hometown Liberty, playing the LA Sparks, and this game would have been like, forgettable otherwise for me, except for the fact that you texted me the following quote. One of the New York Liberty has a Joker tattoo. And you follow that up as I asked who question mark. You followed it up with number three, Dangerfield Calf Joker tattoo. Referring, it turned out, to Crystal Dangerfield, now the Dallas Wings. What do you remember about the moment that you spotted this in this WNBA game?

[Wyatt Sinek]

Well, I remember this because we had been talking about seeing a Joker tattoo, I want to say, during the NBA playoffs, and it sent me down a rabbit hole of a. Why does this person have a Joker tattoo? But then I think we started to see more Joker tattoos. I now had my radar out for Joker tattoos. And so then I. Anytime I saw one, I felt it my duty to share with you that the Joker is in these streets.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes. And specifically on Crystal Danger Fields, like back right calf. Then the same game, noticed what?

[Wyatt Sinek]

A second Joker tattoo on another player.

[Pablo Torre]

In the exact same game. This is the calf of another WNBA player on the same court. Brittany Sykes of the LA Sparks. Now the Mystics. This is jarring. Like, on the same floor, two different Joker tattoos. Which Joker do you think this is, by the way? Because that was a Heath Ledger. This is.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Why so serious is also Heath Ledger. Why so serious?

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, yes.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. So it's two. You got a double Heath.

[Pablo Torre]

Double Heath. Well, I. I should establish here, right, that, like, seeing a single Heath in this context, any Joker tattoo, really, it does feel like an immediate red flag, like, 100% in society. If you told me, Wyatt, I'm seeing this girl now, and I'm like, oh, what's she like? And you're like, oh, tall, athletic, has a tattoo of the Joker. I'd be, like, staging intervention.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah, that's the red flag right there. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, it's surprising to me also. I thought. I would have assumed that all of the people who got these tattoos were, like, you know, incels, I guess.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yes. Oh, 100%. Yeah. No, the Joker is proud boy number one.

[Pablo Torre]

The proudest boy.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. He is the proudest of the boys. He's not a hero in any way. In the comic books, he murders people indiscriminately. He paralyzed Batgirl, and the spine appears to be damaged. You scum. He killed one of the Robins. With a crowbar, no less. Not even Frank from far away. It was brutal. He's a sociopath.

[Pablo Torre]

Yep. Blew up a hospital at one point.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Blew up a hospital. Harley Quinn, who everybody loves now, he was a boyfriend to her. A terrible, abusive boyfriend.

[Pablo Torre]

Hi, Puddin. You're just in time to see the.

[Wyatt Sinek]

And yet people say we gotta, you know, they're good people on both sides.

[Pablo Torre]

The Joker club is more diverse than I realized immediately. I'm just like, gender racially. Like, my mind was blown when I got these texts from you. As we decided to like, look deeper. What became very clear obviously is that this army was truly vast.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah, no, there's a giant Joker army.

[Pablo Torre]

And I should admit that when I started looking into this, I kind of assumed it would be like a little trend piece, like a buzzfeed listicle at best. But the list of guys and gals with Joker tattoos was essentially endless. Like, we stopped. We actually had to stop finding athletes to reach out to because the number of people on the list was ultimately around where?

[Wyatt Sinek]

Around 20.

[Pablo Torre]

I believe we just cleared 20 with the tattoo that I want to. I will reference here in a second. But like, in the NBA alone, Wyatt DeMar DeRozan has one very prominently.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah, yeah, no, he's got, he's got a shoulder Joker.

[Pablo Torre]

This is one of the best mid range shooters in the NBA. And like the last thing you see before he drops like a 15 footer on your head is just Heath Ledger is jarring to me.

[Wyatt Sinek]

It is. I feel like he as a player is intimidating enough. So now we're seeing lamarcus Aldridge's Joker tattoo, which is similar facial expression as the demar derozan Heath Ledger joker. It's also a Heath Ledger Joker. Under it it says, haha. There's also a 12, which is Lamarcus Aldridge's number. And then looking down, I guess, proudly, judgmentally, perhaps. Yeah, it just seems like looking down kind of the way that like Drake looks down on his son. The Joker is, you know, being sort of proudly doted on by a giant tattoo of Jesus Christ.

[Pablo Torre]

And in terms of just like the composition of these tattoos, Odell Beckham Jr. Like, this is his right leg. He has a Joker tattoo.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Well, it says, why so serious? But here's the thing, right below it, something very serious. It's a black power. It's one of the guys from the.

[Pablo Torre]

Olympics, Tommy Smith and, and. Or John Carlos.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah, it's the Tommy Smith or John Carlos Gloved Fist. That is serious. Odell. Next to the Joker is Prince and Obama.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, yeah, Giant Barack Obama right next to like standing back to back, almost like a lethal weapon. But wait, Wyatt, does the portrait of Martin Luther King on the calf do anything for you?

[Wyatt Sinek]

Again, why so serious? Mlk, Barack Obama, the Joker and Prince, those four proud black kings. Together.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, the whole idea of identifying with the villain here, which is a recurring theme, I mean, it brings us to another football player, George Kittle, the 49ers star tight end. He didn't just get a Heath Ledger tattoo on his left forearm. He got it the day before he got married. And he explained this to Kyle Brandt.

[George Kittle]

I believe I go home that night to my fiance, Claire, and I'm like, hey, what are your thoughts on this? And I'm showing her the image. And I didn't even have the image picked out yet, too. I had 100 Joker screenshots. I'm just filtering through them. I don't know what I really want. And I found this one. The scene where he's in the jail cell just sitting there because he's there intentionally. And it's like the clapping scene where he's just going like this. That's such a great scene. And he. That just kind of stuck for me. And I was like, hey, Claire, like, what do you think about this? And I thought she was going to stab me. I really did.

[Pablo Torre]

So many red flags in that answer.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. Does that mean the Joker was the best man at his wedding? Is that why he needed to get the tattoo before the wedding? And also for the person who was there as the best man. Were they a little disappointed that they weren't really the best man? That it's the Joker just clapping like a seal?

[Pablo Torre]

This is the one that Jalen Milroe, Alabama quarterback, got made.

[Wyatt Sinek]

The Joker's a terrible teammate.

[Pablo Torre]

Look at this.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Why would you want him on your team in your jersey wearing a red.

[Pablo Torre]

A Crimson Tide jersey with a Nike swoosh is again Heath Ledger's Joker.

[Wyatt Sinek]

You know how he got that jersey? He murdered one of the team. He doesn't run a good 40. He murdered somebody. That's why he's on the team. And everyone is just afraid to say anything because they don't want to get murdered too.

[Pablo Torre]

There is a real, like, just dossier of guys who opt into this. Like Jamie Collins, the Patriots linebacker, won two Super Bowls. He has a Joker tattoo on his right forearm. Desean Elliott, the Dolphin safety. We found four Joker tattoos, apparently, which is, I think, the record.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Four different Joker tattoos.

[Pablo Torre]

Four different Joker tattoos. Soccer players are doing this, by the way. Like this guy who played for a Shrewsbury town in England.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Oh, that's my favorite soccer club.

[Pablo Torre]

Yep. You love Jason Cummings because on his left thigh is the Joker. The guy who played for Brentford, Ivan Toney, has one on the back of his left army. There was A CFL player, Wyatt, that we found who didn't get a tattoo of the Joker, but wore Joker makeup underneath his mask and I think played in a game in Canada with this.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Does have a catch there to get it down to the five and a third and probably about a yard and a half. This does not make any sense to me. Well, and I guess because there's a part of it where I think about, there was a time when athletes wanted to be the hero. And it feels like so much of being an athlete is about being the hero. Shaq.

[Pablo Torre]

Yes.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Famously had a Superman tattoo, and then maybe just as famously got angry at Dwight Howard for calling himself Superman. I don't give a damn what he had on. There's only one Superman. When did the tide turn where athletes didn't want to be the Superman anymore? They wanted to be the mentally unstable man who fell into a vat of acid.

[Pablo Torre]

There is one possible turning point that we found in our research because there was a story that the Lakers general manager, Rob Pelinka, told in front of the Rock.

[Wyatt Sinek]

By the way, he told his story to the Rock.

[Pablo Torre]

To the Rock and also to the Lakers about one Kobe Bryant.

[Wyatt Sinek]

There was one time when Kobe, who I worked with for 18 years, was going back to play Madison Square Garden, and he had just seen the Dark Knight, Obviously, you guys saw that movie, and he's like, hey, hook me up with dinner with Heath Ledger. Because he got so locked into that role. I want to know how he mentally went there. And so we had dinner with Heath, and he talked about how he locks in for a role, and Kobe used some of that in his game.

[Pablo Torre]

Pretty sure Heath Ledger wasn't alive by the time this meeting took place.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And in fact, he was not Rob Link got that wrong, I guess, most generously, that meeting did not happen, actually.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Or who the hell did Rob Polinka set Kobe Bryant up to dinner with? Was it like, did he just go to Times Square and get one of the Joker impersonators that's hanging around Times Square and just said, look, I'll pay you $10,000 to just pretend you're Heath Ledger and stay in character and you're going to have a great meal?

[Pablo Torre]

There's also this just undercurrent of just, like, clear devotion to one joker above all of the other jokers.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Like the Heath Ledger thing, like, throughout the list that we compiled, man, like, people love Heath Ledger. And I feel like I should say that you are not just here because you embarked on this research project with us. You're Here. Because I think you know more about comic books than anybody else that I know. I think you are the clubhouse leading authority at Pablo Torre finds out when it comes to just comic book knowledge. And I guess I should just say, like, you know, hashtag not all Jokers. They're not. It's more than just Heath Ledger out there.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. I mean, my favorite Joker was the Cesar Romero Joker, which was from the 1966 Batman TV show.

[Pablo Torre]

Hello, kitties. Meet the Joker. It's a tricky trickster. He's unwitting us. The Joker.

[Wyatt Sinek]

At the moment, merely an honest citizen.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait, this is. This is the. This is the Joker who was in the, like, kapow.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Era of. Of Batman.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Ye. Cesar Romero. Spanish and Cuban Joker. The only brown Joker.

[Pablo Torre]

Not a lot of Cesar Romeros.

[Wyatt Sinek]

No.

[Pablo Torre]

In our.

[Wyatt Sinek]

In our research, the reason I like the Cesar Romero one is because worst thing he's gonna do is put a cherry bomb in your toilet and giggle all the way to the bank, like, that's it. He's not.

[Pablo Torre]

He was the clown prince of crime in a way that was actually, like, kind of endearing.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. His crime was like, oh, I'm gonna go to this car dealership and I'm just gonna paint all the cars with polka dots. And he just is like, what are you gonna do?

[Pablo Torre]

And then things escalated in the lineage of Jokers.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. Then it got darker. Yeah. As we are in this dark timeline, as goes Joker, so goes America.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, like, Jack Nicholson, by the way, who is, now that I think about it, like, the Joker, who was present at the most NBA games of all. Arguably.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. That's. If you want to be a Joker fan, why not the Jack Nicholson Joker?

[Pablo Torre]

Right. 1989 Batman, Joker. He does not get any respect.

[Wyatt Sinek]

No. Ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight.

[Pablo Torre]

What?

[Wyatt Sinek]

I always ask that of all my prey. I just like the sound of it. Rob Pelinka never said anything about, you know, oh, I set Kobe up for dinner with Jack Nicholson because he was right there.

[Pablo Torre]

But then, obviously, Heath Ledger was the real, like, turning point towards the gritty. And you don't, like. I know, as your friend, you don't like the Christopher Nolan, like, era of just hyper violent Batman.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. Hyper violent fascist Batman. Yeah. The Batman. That's. Seems to be, like, pro capitalism way too much. I mean, I get like, there is a part of it where it's like, oh, yeah. In those movies, Bane and the Joker seem like guys who were, you know, camping out with Occupy Wall street.

[Pablo Torre]

And then it goes to like, even just The. Even. Just the weirder. Right. Like the Jared Leto joker.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Right? You got Jared Leto. I am not someone who is love. I'm an idea. And then. Yeah, and then you have the Joaquin Phoenix, also known as the Joe Rogan Joker.

[Pablo Torre]

They think that we'll just sit there and take it like good little boys, that we won't Werewolf and Go Wild. Definitely has a podcast.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Oh, yeah. No, he's like. Yeah, he's like, oh, comedy didn't work out. I'm just going to gin up a.

[Pablo Torre]

Bunch of bros. And men's rights are important to the Joaquin Phoenix Joker.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. Joe Rogan never needs a biopic. It's just that movie.

[Pablo Torre]

The journalism of it, though, beyond your takes. What we assigned you, Wyatt, is. Is an actual investigative task, which is you have a couple favorites among the Joker tattoos. Artistically speaking.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Sure. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And we needed you to find out, like, why the. Are these guys into this? Like, what are their actual point of views as to why they're idolizing an obvious. The most obvious villain.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Right. Yeah. Which that, to me, was the thing again, going back to that idea of Shaq and so many athletes who wanted to be the hero. Why do so many athletes today want to be the villain? Why are they embracing the villain? And of the villains. Yeah. This villain, who is terrible.

[Pablo Torre]

There is this sort of, like, larger theme I've noticed in in sports and in life, of confusing the anti hero for the hero. I remember thinking about this with Whiplash. So the movie whiplash, with J.K. simmons being, like, the truly, like, totalitarian music teacher Kobe Bryant. Kyrie Irving loved whiplash and identified J.K. simmons as the hero of that movie. They were writing on their sneakers the word whiplash because they were, like, honoring the philosophies of a guy that was clearly, in my mind, the cautionary tale of, like, how one loses his sanity in the pursuit of greatness. They were like, that's me.

[Wyatt Sinek]

So for the final father time, say it louder.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm upset, Carl.

[Wyatt Sinek]

That doesn't seem good. Hey, guys, maybe just watch Ted Lasso. Why don't you go get yourself a Ted Lasso tattoo?

[Pablo Torre]

It is disturbing the idea of I want to be him, and him is a super villain. And so the first. I mean, I guess the first ostensibly good guy you talked to who had a tattoo of the baddest and not Mike Tyson bad, although debatable. The bad guy who is adorning his body, who is the guy that you talk to first?

[Wyatt Sinek]

I sat down with Von Miller, who is a lovely guy, an amazing football Player.

[Von Miller]

I got my very first tattoo when I was 18 years old with my mom. She got her very first tattoo. I got my very first tattoo.

[Wyatt Sinek]

And yeah, just doesn't take himself seriously. Not in the Joker way, but yeah, just a great, great, great guy. But also has a joker tattoo.

[Pablo Torre]

I think I, I remember telling you that there was just one rule that I had for you in conducting this interview with Von Miller, a future hall of Famer, two time super bowl champion, eight time Pro Bowler, super bowl mvp, which was Wyatt, I'm trying to do a serious journalism show. Just please do not do your famous Batman impression.

[Wyatt Sinek]

I mean, that's, you know, the people want it. You've permanently put my enemy's face on your body. Like, do you realize how offensive that is to me? Like, he, he shot, he shot Batgirl. He killed one of my robins. Because I have multiple children who work for me.

[Von Miller]

I would say Batman, I really understand, like, where you coming from, but I can see myself in both of you guys. Like, I see, I see the Bruce in me and I see the Joker in me at times in my life. And I need both of you guys to really channel to be the best Vaughn that I could be.

[Wyatt Sinek]

That's really offensive, Vaughn. Like, that's like, that's having the Joker is like, like, that's my N word.

[Pablo Torre]

Von, I just asked for one thing.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. And you got it. You got hard hitting journalism from the Bat.

[Pablo Torre]

If you're not watching on the DraftKings network or on YouTube, Wyatt is wearing his. I assume this is yours. Your Batman cowl.

[Wyatt Sinek]

It's a cowl? Yeah, it's my Batman cowl. I took it from a child whose.

[Pablo Torre]

Parents got it at a spirit Halloween pop up store.

[Wyatt Sinek]

I can only hope there is like.

[Pablo Torre]

A durag aspect though, to the cowl. Now that I think about it, it's.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Also how I get my waves. This is my wave cap. Just so happens that my wave cap is also a Batman mask.

[Pablo Torre]

Why Wyatt? Batman? Why did Von Miller get a Joker tattoo? He seems like a nice guy.

[Wyatt Sinek]

So Von Miller got a Joker tattoo because he had ankle surgery. When the, when everything was stitched up, Von Miller thought that the scar kind of looked like the Joker's smile.

[Pablo Torre]

So it started with the scar, this curved scar over, like his. It has an ankle bone.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And he tattooed the eyes over the mouth of the scar. Is kind of awesome now that I am seeing it up close.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah, no, it's a, it's, it's, it's a cool idea.

[Pablo Torre]

I should say that the Ankle in question. It was a tendon, a torn tendon in his left ankle. Hurt it in the preseason, September 2020. I imagine that you gotta be in a pretty intense, emotional place to be like, I'm gonna turn this scar into the Joker's face.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. Well, and also, when we talked, he talked about how much he likes Batman. So much so that he got a car that he customized into a Batmobile.

[Pablo Torre]

He loves the Joker and also loves Batman.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. He's trying to have it both ways.

[Pablo Torre]

How does he explain this? How does he. How does he square this circle?

[Von Miller]

Me being the best player on the football field that I can be and me being the best teammate that I could possibly be, they are. They are two different things.

[Wyatt Sinek]

I think to Von Miller, for him, the Joker is something that he feels he needs to turn on or turn off in game situations.

[Von Miller]

So, for instance, on the football field, I'm going against whoever I don't like during timeouts. I'm gonna ask you about your kids and how you doing.

[Wyatt Sinek]

He knows a lot of other players. He knows a lot of other players on other teams. He's friends with them. He knows their families.

[Von Miller]

So I would say that that's the. The Bruce in me off the football field.

[Wyatt Sinek]

But then when the game starts, that person is not your friend anymore. Being the Joker means, okay, I can turn that off. And if I demolish you that, like, I'm not thinking of you as my friend.

[Von Miller]

I'm trying to, like, take your head off. And I want to win at any means necessary. On the football field, I have to be Joker. So there are times where I have to be bothered.

[Pablo Torre]

There is. When I listen to that, there is, like, a Mamba mentality parallel.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Isn't there, like, Kobe becoming this evil alter ego to be the best version of himself?

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. Which, again, it's interesting that the way that that mentality has been created is through villainy.

[Von Miller]

I guess it would be similar because Kobe, from the stories that I've heard and the research that I've done, he would play. He would say these little things or do these little things in the psychology that he had. He also had the skill of being great, but he used psychology to really play mind games and mind tricks on people as well.

[Wyatt Sinek]

One could maybe argue that. Yeah. If you're more concerned with your own psychology and the psychology of your opponents and less focused on the psychology of your teammates, then you're probably going to be playing a lot of hero ball.

[Pablo Torre]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. You're going ISO.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

At the end of games, I mean, this is where, by the way, this is where, like that Rob Pelinka, Heath Ledger tall tale again, to be generous. It's where I realized it actually wasn't entirely made up.

[Rob Pelinka]

This is actually the story Rob told that he got confused about the Heath Ledger stuff because I stayed up watching Batman and watching Heath Ledger, and then I went and started researching about Heath Ledger and how he got into character and how he just became all consuming. I was like. That inspired me to go into my garden mode where I go in there. I don't want to say hi to the Janet. I don't want to say hi to these people. I don't want to talk to nobody. Everybody leave me alone.

[Wyatt Sinek]

I feel like the thing, though, I don't remember. I don't remember all of it with, like, the Heath Ledger all consuming thing, but I feel like there was an element of it that isn't great for your co workers being a method Joker. Yeah, I know with, like, Jared Leto, there was the story of he maybe sent a horse's head to somebody or something, you know, that tracks. There was something that was, oh, it's all consuming, but it's. It's an HR nightmare.

[Pablo Torre]

Talk to Margot Robbie. It turns out who. Jared Leto sent a dead rat just to clarify that record.

[Wyatt Sinek]

And I do wonder for a lot of the people with Joker tattoos, if they were mic'd up. Is there a game where there's just seven people with Joker tattoos and the only thing they're saying anytime they do something is, why so serious? So you're just hearing like, why so serious? Why so serious? Why so serious? Just. And that's it. And then just one of their teammates, hey, can you just, you know, can you just stop? Yeah, we got a good. You got an interception. Why so serious? All right, all right. Please, you, please. Okay. Yeah, it's. It's not helping right now.

[Pablo Torre]

This Joker multiverse does bring me to. To wonder, like, what was your favorite Joker tattoo of all of the Joker tattoos that you saw?

[Wyatt Sinek]

Of all the Joker tattoos I saw, my favorite probably had to be Juan Toscano Anderson's Joker tattoo.

[Pablo Torre]

But you saw more than 20 Joker tattoos, and so why. Why Juan Descano Anderson? Like, I know he won a championship with the Warriors. He was the Lakers last season. He just signed to the G League team in Mexico City, I believe. What about his tattoo gets the gold medal for you?

[Wyatt Sinek]

So Juan Toscano Anderson has three jokers playing poker.

[Pablo Torre]

It's clearly, I hope, inspired by the dogs playing poker painting.

[Wyatt Sinek]

I would have to Believe it's on his calf. And it's from left to right. It is the Heath Ledger joker. Of course, the Jack Nicholson joker, which for a guy who played on the Lakers last season, that. That should have won him a lot of Curried a lot of favor.

[Pablo Torre]

I agree. Also, the Jack Joker's wearing sunglasses.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. So it is like he is courtside or just came from courtside to play this game of poker. The third joker is the Jared Leto Joker, the one who thought it was a nice idea to send a rat to Margot Robbie. I'm not gonna kill you. I'm just gonna hurt you really, really bad.

[Pablo Torre]

So what about. So this approach, though, I'm gonna honor the lineage of jokers.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Sure. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

This is rare. We don't see this, Wyatt.

[Wyatt Sinek]

And this was something I talked about with Juan.

[Juan Toscano Anderson]

I did watch, like, a lot of superhero movies. I did watch a lot of cartoons growing up, and I'm familiar with the majority of older cartoons and superheroes.

[Pablo Torre]

What was his explanation as for why these three jokers were three things he needed tattooed on his body in this way?

[Wyatt Sinek]

So he saw the image and thought it looked cool. And here's the thing about tattoos. You know, not all of them have a serious meaning. Sometimes people just get tattoos to be a little silly. And it felt like this was a mix of, oh, there's a wi. There's a bit of whimsy here. But it also speaks to that Joker mentality that he feels drives. Has driven a lot of his career and the path that it took for him to get to the NBA.

[Juan Toscano Anderson]

Sometimes as athletes, like, we are the villains, and there's a little bit of you that we want to say. But us being role models, we really can't. Us being on a platform and, you know, being in the public eye, there's just a lot of things that you can't say and you can't do. And I think just the art itself and, like, being able to, like.

[Wyatt Sinek]

You.

[Juan Toscano Anderson]

Know, relate to the Joker, it's like it's our way of expressing ourselves.

[Pablo Torre]

So that. That feels a little bit like. Like Nicholson. Like a Jack Nicholson Joker.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Sure.

[Pablo Torre]

Like, he's a famous guy who just wants to wear shades and occasionally say you to people.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. And one of the things he talked about when he was saying, you know, sometimes we become the villain, he was talking about it on a few different levels, one of which was the moment you get to the league, whatever professional sport you play, that you have a lot of people from your life, from your hometown, from your neighborhood, who start coming around and they might look at you like a meal ticket.

[Juan Toscano Anderson]

I've gotten to a point where I can't really tell my side of the story. So I'm always going to be the villain. And I feel like when you're in a place of success, and more often than not, you're the wealthiest person in your circle and in your family, like, you get vilified for, you know, saying no to people, you know, doing certain things for yourself.

[Wyatt Sinek]

And there's a certain amount of, oh, I can't. I can't save everybody.

[Pablo Torre]

And it does feel like Juan Toscano Anderson, hearing your conversation with him, is kind of frustrated by the fact that he's on this crazy rollercoaster trajectory.

[Juan Toscano Anderson]

My feeling of the Joker, like, when people like, shit on me in real life. Cause, like, I don't have a deal right now. Like, I'm a free agent right now. I mean, I've been cut by teams. I'm an NBA champion. I've started in the NBA. I've been on the bench in the NBA. Like, I've gone through every, you know, emotion.

[Pablo Torre]

He won a title. He was with the Lakers. Now he's trying to get back to the NBA through the G League in another country.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Right.

[Pablo Torre]

And he sort of feels alone.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah.

[Juan Toscano Anderson]

But when like, people who are not in the NBA, when they on me, I'm just. And like, talk about me about like, not playing or like, oh, you got lucky. You made it to the NBA. I'm like, man, I was just walking around the streets of Oakland and you know, X, Y and Z city just being a normal citizen, just like you were. I just decided to like, do X, Y and Z to get to this point. And that's where I feel like my joker also comes in life where it's just like y', all, because y', all, like, you know, I worked hard to get here. You did it. You sat on your ass and didn't put the work in. But I can't say that publicly. You know, I can't go on my platform and say that or I can't say that to people who message me. So like I said, my way of self expression is that. And the Joker helps me.

[Pablo Torre]

So just for the record, Juan Toscano Anderson, you are always welcome to say you to whoever you want. On Pablo Torre finds out.

[Wyatt Sinek]

And he wasn't that, you know, top 10 draft pick. He wasn't someone that people had been tracking. And so there is a little of that, that thing of the Joker as this underdog. Yes. And this misunderstood Weirdo who sees the world a little differently and thinks he is right. And granted for the Joker that his version of what is right is chaos. You can see how someone who has had the path that Juan Toscano Anderson has had might see their presence in the NBA as a bit of that chaos. That I'm not the person you expected to be here. And now look, I'm here. I have an NBA championship. I've accomplished all of these things you didn't think was possible for me. And I also have to deal with continually getting doubted by people online who still don't think I belong in this place. See, to them, you're just a freak. And so, yeah, there's a bit of. Kind of having to say, yeah, I notice me and notice me, Batman, because I'm here.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, in that sense, the Joker is kind of the ultimate undrafted free agent.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's the thing is the Joker. The Joker wasn't one of the Batman's drafted villain.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, the Joker didn't go to Duke.

[Wyatt Sinek]

No. Oh, God. He was not a blue chip villain at all. He's. I mean, even everything in his background is, you know, struggling comedian who winds up, you know, falling into a thing of acid and. Because he's doing petty crime and it's not. And it was just to make ends meet. Like, he's just. He is very much a G league player. And then he becomes the Joker and it allows him entry into the pro sports version of Gotham crime.

[Pablo Torre]

Correct.

[Wyatt Sinek]

And. And now, yeah, he is.

[Pablo Torre]

He's dropping 40 in the Arkham League.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah, he's John Starks. He's, you know, he is that guy that. Oh, yeah, nobody. They were just. Yeah, you were just bagging groceries and now you're like.

[Pablo Torre]

I feel like now you're dunking on Superman.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah, I feel like those are the people who should get the Joker tattoos.

[Pablo Torre]

So that's the thing about Juan Toscano Anderson Wyatt, now that I think about it. Right. So there is this element of bootstraps. Pulled myself up by him.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Sure. But also respectability, politics, basketball.

[Pablo Torre]

Absolutely. But also it's the idea of, like, him. I love that he's unapologetic about this. Like, he's on some level saying, a very clear level, you, I don't like you. And I wanna signal that it's the idea. It's the original concept we talked about. He wants you to see this as a red flag. He's like, by the way, I'm the guy with the Joker tattoo. There are actually three Jokers on my tattoo.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Stop asking me for money.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And he also has a second joker tattoo.

[Pablo Torre]

Wait, what?

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah, that was something I learned while we were talking. He has the three jokers playing poker, but then he also has a Joker smile on his thigh, which Joker smile sounds like it should be a hollow notes, like a Weird Al. A Weird Al cover of Sarah Smile by Hall and Oaks notes, which, if there's any way that Pablo Torre could find out whether Weird Al would do Joker smile, I feel like that would be a great button to all of this.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, we're on it.

[Wyatt Sinek]

All right.

[Pablo Torre]

We're on that.

[Wyatt Sinek]

I have to wonder how much of Weird Al Yankovic's life is just politely nodding as people suggest songs to him, songs he can parody, where they're just like, hey, Weird Al, you should do. You should do formation. You should do Beyonce's formation, but it could be rotation, and it's just about rotisserie chicken. Come on, man. You should do that. And he's like, it's very nice to meet you. Thank you. I'll keep that under advisement.

[Pablo Torre]

What Weird Al needs. You know what he needs in response to that to keep those people at bay?

[Wyatt Sinek]

A Joker tattoo.

[Pablo Torre]

He needs a Joker tattoo. The idea of Joker as like, again, this is very on the nose for our episode today. Joker as inkblot test.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Rorschach test of like, you see what you see. Von Miller sees one thing. Juan Toscano Anderson says you to that thing. Sees his own thing.

[Wyatt Sinek]

George Kittle sees, you know, not helping out. Yeah. Just a band before his wedding.

[Pablo Torre]

His fiance.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

I mean, you've. You've now become the world's foremost expert on Joker tattoos.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Thank you very much. Thank you for that.

[Pablo Torre]

I know you've been. You've been working your whole career.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Towards this. Towards this designation.

[Wyatt Sinek]

It's not the. It's not the Emmys. It's not.

[Pablo Torre]

No.

[Wyatt Sinek]

It's not the Grammy nominations. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

No, no. Nope, nope. None of that.

[Wyatt Sinek]

None of that. It's.

[Pablo Torre]

It's the fact that you now, Wyatt, get the power of the Pablo Torre finds out graphics budget like, what Joker tattoo would you design for yourself at the very end here now that you've done this survey of all of the.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Possibilities, I mean, a while. I understand it. I wouldn't want a Joker tattoo. So I just want to preface it.

[Pablo Torre]

With that you have your principles.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Right. But. But in this new world order that we are all going to be trapped in, where everyone has to get a Joker tattoo.

[Pablo Torre]

Correct. That's what I'm imposing upon you. That's the condition of the title you got, unfortunately.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Well, and also, it seems like in this, as the Joker grows, it's just going to be a thing that babies will be born and they will be given Joker tattoos. They won't be given names. It'll just be a thing where we identify one another by Heath Ledger. Joker tattoos. That said, if I was going to get a Joker tattoo, I would get Cesar Romero. There was an episode of the old Batman show where Batman and the Joker got into a surfing contest. And that is. That's the Joker. I like that he just showed up. There was a surfing contest, and the Joker showed up and was like, I want to enter. I'm gonna surf in a full suit.

[Pablo Torre]

Joker's shuffling now. He's cutting back to meet the curl. He caught it. He's riding the hook. Batman can't beat Joker, but watch him cross the squad. Look. That's a shot.

[Wyatt Sinek]

And so if I had to get a Joker tattoo, it would be surf.

[Pablo Torre]

And Joker on where, like, you're talking chest hat.

[Wyatt Sinek]

I got it. I gotta now actually put it somewhere.

[Pablo Torre]

It's okay if you want to say it's a tramp stamp.

[Wyatt Sinek]

No, I mean, now that you've offered Joker tattoo surfing as a tramp stamp. I mean, the other. The other option is you go kind of Tupac style over the belly. Like, you know, wait, and so. And so just.

[Pablo Torre]

That is obviously the right answer.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. I think it's just kind of like surfing over my tummy.

[Pablo Torre]

Only Joker can judge me. Around. Around the belly button.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. I think. I think it's. I think that that could be a fun one. Why?

[Pablo Torre]

It's an act. Thank you for hanging ten with us on, I think, the dumbest show we've ever done.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Hey. And you've done a number of shows at this point. That is a high watermark. I am. On behalf of me and me Batman. We're both very. I just left for a second. What happened?

[Pablo Torre]

What? This is all very visible on YouTube in the DraftKings network.

[Wyatt Sinek]

He was here. We do know he was here.

[Pablo Torre]

And you know what I found out today, Wyatt, at the very end here is that there is one thing that Batman, who we met today.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

And Cesar Romero's Joker, both love.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Surfing.

[Pablo Torre]

They love waves.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

Underneath the do rag cow.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Yeah. Oh, yes. Oh, those waves. Yes. Sorry. Oh, my gosh. I normally pride myself on being. Being alert, and you got me. Yeah.

[Pablo Torre]

So proud of it.

[Wyatt Sinek]

That was a good one. Yeah. Geez. Oh, that's. I feel bad. That was you. You. You stuck the landing there and I. It took me a second.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out a Meadowlark Media Production and I'll talk to you next time.

[Wyatt Sinek]

Sam.