What's the deal with peptides?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What's the Deal with Peptides?"

Podcast: Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD
Episode Date: February 19, 2026
Host: iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the hype and science around peptides—a popular but often misunderstood topic in wellness circles. Emily Oster, an economist and data expert, and Dr. Perry Wilson, a physician, break down what peptides are, why they're everywhere on social media, and whether they actually do anything for your health. They distinguish evidence-based uses from the myth, caution listeners about risks, and run through listener questions on the so-called "age cliff." The discussion is frank, data-driven, and occasionally irreverent—perfect for listeners overwhelmed by wellness fads.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Are Peptides, Anyway?

[18:43]

• Perry breaks down the science:

  “Protein is the building blocks of our bodies… Peptides are little pieces of proteins, and the definitions vary, but most people say that peptides are somewhere south of 50 amino acids.” (Perry Wilson, [20:05])

• There are nearly infinite possible peptides—literally as many as "the number of atoms in every star in our galaxy." (Perry Wilson, [21:54])
• Key analogy: Imagine peptides as “keys” that fit “locks” (receptors) on your cells, causing different effects.

2. Why All the Wellness Hype?

• Emily references a typical Instagram moment:

  “I opened up my Instagram and the first thing I saw was someone who had two side by side pictures of her face… this is what happens after 12 weeks on peptides… you cannot open social media without hearing about peptides.” (Emily Oster, [18:58])

• Influencers, bold claims, and rebranding of familiar substances (e.g., weight loss drugs) drive the buzz.

3. Real, FDA-Approved Peptides & Evidence-Based Uses

[25:55]-[30:13]

• Collagen Peptides
  • Moderate evidence supports topical collagen peptides for skin hydration/elasticity (but studies without industry funding show less effect).
  • For joint pain: Some benefit, especially in athletes, shown in meta-analyses, but effects are modest.
  • Quote:

    “I tell people… it’s not terribly expensive. If you feel like trying it, try it. Try to be honest with yourself if you think you really look better. If you don’t, save your money.” (Perry Wilson, [28:37])

• Other Approved Peptides
  • Tanning: Afamelanotide (FDA approved for rare diseases, but not as a tanning agent).
  • Female sexual desire: Vyleesi, with mixed benefits and common nausea side effects.
  • Peptide-based drugs: Insulin, GLP-1 agonists (e.g., semaglutide for diabetes/weight loss).
• Emphasis: Legitimate peptides go through rigorous trials and FDA regulation.

4. The “Wolverine Stack” & Injected Peptides

[33:48]-[41:07]

• Joe Rogan, among others, popularizes “the Wolverine stack” (BPC157 + TB500) for wound healing and “super recovery.”
• Perry counters:

  “The data for BPC157 is essentially entirely in mice and rats. …Some studies in mice and rats do show accelerated healing...But nothing in the people data that would say this should be widely adopted.”
  “Anecdote is not data.” (Emily Oster, [40:34])

• Risks of using animal data for human therapy: Most animal findings don’t translate; no long-term human safety data.

5. Risks & Regulatory Gaps

[41:07]-[54:47]

• Oral Peptides: Generally a waste of money—destroyed by the stomach before absorption.

  “Oral peptide consumption is basically going to be safe, you know, even if you are ingesting like bee venom, because it’s not effective.” (Perry Wilson, [43:01]) “It’s safe because it’s useless. Your stomach is eating it.” (Emily Oster, [43:05])

• Injectable Peptides: Where real risk lies—especially if bought “online” or from “compounding pharmacies.”
  • BPC157 is illegal to compound in the US; most online products come from overseas (often China) with no testing or regulation.

  “When it comes to injecting things into your body, you don’t really want the Wild West.” (Perry Wilson, [47:39])

• Possible Dangers:
  • Allergic reactions (anaphylaxis can happen, especially after multiple injections)
  • Autoimmunity (immune attacks on self-proteins)
  • Contamination (e.g., with toxins, heavy metals)—usually not a problem with FDA-approved injectables but high risk for gray-market products.
• Guidance for those considering peptides:

  "If someone tells you they're getting some of these peptides… from a compounding pharmacy, they're not. It's not legal… what you do want is a certificate of analysis... you want… greater than 98% purity, endotoxin testing, heavy metal testing, sterility, and that the batch number matches." (Perry Wilson, [52:29])

6. Bottom Line: Separating Fact from Hype

[54:33]-[54:47]

• Emily’s take-home:

  “Don’t inject something in yourself that’s not FDA approved just because it worked on a rat.” (Emily Oster, [54:33])

• Perry’s view:

  “I’m not ready to give up on this, but there’s some serious snake oil vibes here.” (Perry Wilson, [54:42])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It does not make hot young women pop out of your back. At least not yet.” (Perry Wilson, joking about peptide claims, [20:05])
• “If we were mice, we would have solved, like, everything.” (Emily Oster, on translating animal research to humans, [37:59])
• “When you see someone on the Internet and their skin is amazing and they tell you they took collagen, I’m telling you it’s that they have good genetics and/or are using a filter.” (Emily Oster, [32:48])
• “Wolverine stack…that is amazing…as a superhero fan, that is great marketing.” (Perry Wilson, [47:01])
• [Listener Question]: “Don’t inject something in yourself that’s not FDA approved just because it worked on a rat.” (Emily Oster, [54:33])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [18:43] – Start of the main peptide segment
• [20:05] – “What is a peptide?” explained
• [23:32] – GLP-1 and aspartame as peptide examples
• [25:55] – Are peptides “safe because they’re natural?” Dispelled
• [28:37] – Collagen peptides evidence & skepticism
• [33:48] – The “Wolverine stack” and influencer hype
• [35:55] – Animal vs. human studies, true limitations
• [41:07] – Dangers of DIY peptides, oral vs injected forms
• [47:01] – Regulatory issues: compounding & legality
• [52:29] – What to check if you insist on using (certificate of analysis)
• [54:33] – Host summary—what’s the “one thing” to remember
• [58:08] – Listener mailbag: the “age cliff” and slow decline
• [61:26] – Emily’s post-episode correction: “I don’t always follow evidence either”

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Listener Mailbag Highlight

[58:08]-[62:23]

• Question: Is there an “age cliff” in your 40s where everything goes downhill?
  • Perry: Study shows some markers dip around 44, but data is limited and “mobility cliff” is likely more about changes in lifestyle and activity, not sudden biology.
  • Emily: Biology rarely “cliffs,” it’s mostly slow decline.
  • Fun back-and-forth about self-injuring male friends and their “return to lacrosse” phase.

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Tone and Language Notes

• Candid, irreverent, and accessible explanations.
• Hosts frequently poke fun at both wellness fads and themselves.
• Critical but not dismissive—recognize the appeal and desperation behind “trying anything” but urge caution and evidence.

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In Summary

Main takeaway:
Peptides are a vast, diverse category—some are proven medical marvels (like insulin or GLP-1 agonists), but most wellness peptides are unstudied, overhyped, potentially risky, and often illegal to inject or sell. Oral “peptide gummies” are largely a waste of money. If you’re considering peptides, make sure they’re FDA-approved, and beware of products without real testing or oversight. As Perry sums up, “There’s some serious snake oil vibes here.” As Emily says, “Don’t inject something that’s not FDA approved just because it worked on a rat.”

---

Next week:
“What’s the deal with cold plunges and saunas?”

Transcript

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[Emily Oster]

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[Emily Oster]

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[Emily Oster]

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No putting your entire schedule on hold.

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No upsells, no problem. So you can get back to your

[Emily Oster]

to do list or not find your nearest [e-mail] Take 5 the Stay in youn Car 10 Minute Oil Change Support

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[Emily Oster]

There's a new peptide that literally burns

[Perry Wilson]

fat off of your body at the same time it suppresses your hunger. Peptides are one of the best ingredients

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you can use for anti aging.

[Emily Oster]

Do not sleep on peptides. Peptides are the it girl of the year, and for good reason.

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Well, that's the thing about peptides to the Wolverine stack.

[Perry Wilson]

I don't know. If you ever get injured, get immediately on BP157 and TB5 might help you improve your gut health. The tone texture of your skin's fine lines and wrinkles possibly restore your hair. Raise your natural growth hormone.

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So there's truly a peptide for everything.

[Perry Wilson]

Emily, are we in over our heads here?

[Emily Oster]

Maybe a little bit. How many peptides did you have this morning?

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Are you ready?

[Perry Wilson]

I. Well, I've had 30, but it's clearly not enough.

[Emily Oster]

It's not enough. Did you have your CJC 1295?

[Perry Wilson]

Oh, you know what? That's the problem because that's the one. I still have my existential sense of dread, and I'm pretty sure that's the key to eliminate that.

[Emily Oster]

I'm Emily Oster. I'm an economist and a data expert.

[Perry Wilson]

And I'm Perry Wilson. I'm a medical doctor.

[Emily Oster]

It's Thursday, February 19, 2026. And this is wellness, actually, because you're

[Perry Wilson]

getting a staggering amount of health and wellness information nowadays from every source imaginable. And some of it is awesome and

[Emily Oster]

some of it is, well, actually, bull. Fortunately, we are both people who know how to read studies, how to parse the data, and can tell you what's worth thinking about and what you can safely ignore.

[Perry Wilson]

But before we dig in, a note that this podcast is for educational purposes and should not be construed as medical advice. We don't know your unique situation, so talk to your doctor for personal health

[Emily Oster]

decisions this week we're asking, what's the deal with peptides? And then we'll get to your question of the week. But first, let's do the health news roundup after the break.

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Premier Protein. It's for getting after life, not just Fitness. With 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, and no sugar added, helping people fuel their joyful lives. With Premier Protein, you can say yes to more. Whether it's crushing a big presentation at work, building an epic fort with the kids or hitting the hiking trail with friends. Premier Protein offers delicious flavors like cafe latte, chocolate, caramel, vanilla, strawberry and cake batter, to name a few. Find your favorite [e-mail] support for the

[Public Investing Advertiser]

show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generate assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1 bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc, SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures this

[Bethenny Frankel]

is Bethany Frankel from Just Be with Bethany Frankel. Most dog food is marketing, not nutrition. That is why Biggie and Smalls eat just food for dogs. Real 100% human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize. And yes I do see the difference. Better digestion, healthier skin, more energy, dogs that feel better. My babies. If you've been on the fence about switching, stop overthinking it. What's more important than your furry babies and their health? Go to justfoodfordogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code needed. Just try it.

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[Perry Wilson]

Hey, just a quick note from the future here. The following conversation about MRNA flu vaccines was recorded before the FDA reversed their stance. That's good news for everyone, as you'll soon understand why, but bad news for our producer Tamar, who had to add this caveat at the 11th hour. This is what keeping up with the news looks like. And I think, as you'll see, the mere idea that something is being discussed on the Wellness actually podcast has the effect of moving policy on a national scale.

[Emily Oster]

All right, Perry, so first piece of health news for the week is Moderna has a phase three trial of an MRNA flu vaccine, but the FDA has declined to review their results. There's been a lot of talk about this. I think it's pretty confusing for a lot of people. Perry, can you break down what is going on, why people are upset? Where we go from here?

[Perry Wilson]

Yeah, I mean, to be honest, this is pretty weird. This is unusual. So why do we need an MRNA flu vaccine? I mean, the argument here is that our traditional flu vaccines, which are those egg based VACC vaccines, take about six months to make. And that means you're always sort of trying to like stay ahead of the flu, the flu eight ball, right. Like you start guessing what the flu strains are going to be in the future to grow up your vaccines. MRNA flu vaccine in theory can get spun up in a couple of weeks. That's the benefit of MRNA technology. You could potentially even like in real time keep up with the flu strains that are coming out. So there's definitely a reason to do this kind of study. Even though we have existing flu vaccines, this vaccine that Moderna put out, they had published already several studies, about 7,000 patients each demonstrating safety. But this 41,000 patient trial was for efficacy. Does it prevent the flu compared to not a placebo but the current active flu vaccine, one of these egg based vaccines. And in fact the rates of flu were significantly lower with the Moderna vaccine. They submit that data to the FDA and in theory an FDA advisory panel will review it, assess it for safety and efficacy, make a ruling that FDA then decides on this did not happen. The head of the vaccine division essentially of the fda guy named Vinay Prasad, apparently, according to New York Times Unilaterally decided not to review this data at all, so not to bring it to the peer review group in the first place. He his rationale was that the dose of the normal vaccine they gave was not high enough for older people who do better with a higher dose. So it was like not a good enough comparator is the argument. Here's the problem. If you're a big pharmaceutical company, generally you go to the FDA and this is what Moderna did before you do the trial and you say, hey, here's our design, here's our what? Here's our control group, here's our analysis. Are you okay with this? Because you don't want to spend $250 million if the FDA is going to say they're not okay with this. Right. So they did that. They went to the fda, the FDA said, sure, run your trial. You know, this looks like a good design. And now apparently one person, although obviously who knows what's going on, has after the fact been like, no, you know, moving the goalposts. This is like sort of classic Lucy picking up the football situation.

[Emily Oster]

Yeah, I mean, it is important to hit on the top point of like, why we would want this vaccine. And I actually think it's particularly interesting in the context of this most recent flu season where the flu vaccine was very poorly matched to the circulating flu strain because they guessed what the circulating strain would be six months out and they were not right. And the promise of the MRNA version of this is you wouldn't have to guess six months out. You could guess a month out or two months out and you might get much closer. And so I think there's a lot of value here making the fact that now it seems like this just won't happen both objectively bad in addition to this process seeming like this definitely isn't the process that we would like. And we're already starting to see companies talk about, you know, we don't want to do vaccine innovation now if there's

[Perry Wilson]

no way it's going to MRNA innovation in general. And, you know, MRNA technology is not just for vaccines. There's. There's MRNA anti cancer therapies and stuff that are getting held up by this. And it does feel somewhat ideological. I think all people are asking is like, just do the normal process, like just submit the data for the standard peer review that every other drug gets through. But it's not happening.

[Emily Oster]

It is a holdover from COVID All

[Perry Wilson]

of society has long Covid right now, basically. All right, let's stick with the fda. Emily. Maybe Some better news. I'm curious what you thought of this. The FDA had removed some warnings that appear on hormone replacement therapies for women who are perimenopausal or postmenopausal. In the past, those medications had warnings on them that they could increase the risk of cardiovascular disease, breast cancer or dementia. Those warnings are now removed. Good, bad.

[Emily Oster]

I think this is great news. I mean, so hormone replacement therapy is really beneficial for a lot of people in perimenopause and in menopause. It can improve just quality of life, tremendously, lower symptoms, which can be really debilitating. There was a large trial, you know, decades ago which suggested that there could be some risks from hormone replacement therapy. But as people have better understood that data and gotten follow up data, it has seemed pretty clear that the risks that were identified in that trial, which were mostly about cancer, in fact, are not things that we should be concerned about for the vast majority of people who would be treated with these medications. And so we've kind of over time clawed back towards a view that actually HRT should be prescribed more. That can be very beneficial. And the removal of these boxed warnings is sort of the next step in that. So I, my hope is that this will encourage more people who could benefit from these therapies to be, to be on them. So I thought this was response to evidence and a good one at that. All right.

[Perry Wilson]

So good the FDA gets it right from time to time. I want to move on to a bit of happier news, something. You know, I've seen this story before, but man, I always love it. The Olympic Village condom situation. So the New York Times reported that the, in that the Winter Olympics village in Italy, they ran out of 10,000 condoms within three days. To put that in perspective, there are about 3,000 athletes in the Games. That's a lot of condoms.

[Emily Oster]

It's a lot.

[Perry Wilson]

I just have to say it must be fun to be in like the best shape of your life. And in Italy.

[Emily Oster]

I agree, I agree. I mean, I do, I wonder whether there was a condom hoarding issue. Right. So, you know, my guess is that people mostly before their events are kind of like laying low, but maybe they're picking up a bunch of condoms for like after the event.

[Perry Wilson]

And so you think, and they, they've got that like overly ambitious, like, I'm gonna need 20, I what if I

[Emily Oster]

get a gold medal? I'm gonna need a lot of condoms for all of the demand that's gonna be coming in after my medal.

[Perry Wilson]

So I was debating this with some people you think that you are, I'll speak somewhat euphemistically, you think you are not using the condoms before your event.

[Emily Oster]

I don't.

[Perry Wilson]

And I'm wondering if there are some events like maybe biathlon or like some of the precision events where you should be using the condoms more beforehand.

[Emily Oster]

It's an interesting thing. Yeah, I, I in my mind I have the endurance events where I do think you probably don't want to be using the condoms before, but maybe the precision, maybe it like sort of chills you out. Curling. Yes, curling. Clearly curling would benefit from a pre condom pre use.

[Perry Wilson]

There you go curlers. Let us know. Hit us up. We want to know what your strategy is.

[Emily Oster]

We really, really, really do. That's it for the health news of the week. Next up, peptides. But first a break.

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Premier Protein. It's for getting after life, not just Fitness. With 30 grams of protein, 160 calories and no sugar added, helping people fuel their joyful lives. With Premier Protein, you can say yes to more. Whether it's crushing a big presentation at work, building an epic fort with the kids or hitting the hiking trail with friends. Premier Protein offers delicious flavors like cafe latte, chocolate, caramel, vanilla, strawberry and cake batter to name a few. Find your favorite [e-mail] support for the

[Public Investing Advertiser]

show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis crisis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures this

[Bethenny Frankel]

is Bethany Frankel from Just Be with Bethany Frankel. Most dog food is marketing, not nutrition. That is why Biggie and Smalls eat just food for dogs. Real 100% human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize. And yes, I do see the difference. Better digestion, healthier skin, more energy. Dogs that feel better. My babies. If you've been on the fence about switching, stop overthinking it. What's more important than your furry babies and their health? Go to justfoodfordogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code needed. Just try it.

[Premier Protein/Klarna Advertiser]

If you're looking for more flexibility in how you pay for everyday purchases, meet Klarna. Klarna lets you decide whether to pay now, pay later, or spread payments over time. All managed right in the Klarna app. Download the Klarna app today or visit klarna.com to learn more. Terms Apply California Resident Loans made or arranged pursuant to a California Finance Law License NMLS Number 1353190 Klarna Balance Account required to be eligible for cashback points. Limitations, terms and conditions apply.

[Perry Wilson]

Welcome back to wellness. Actually. So what's the deal with Peptides? Emily this is like a big topic. There's so much talk about this on social media, it's nearly overwhelming.

[Emily Oster]

I was waiting for the airplane yesterday for a flight home and I opened up my Instagram and the first thing I saw was someone who had two side by side pictures of her face and it was like, this is what happens after 12 weeks on peptides and she looked better. I mean, I don't know that particular person. I have a lot of issues. But the point is that you cannot open social media without hearing about Peptides. I would like us to start this by just demystifying a little bit. When I think about peptides, the thing at least before I did some more research for this episode, the first thing that often comes into my head is Demi Moore in the Substance. You know, where she takes some thing and then she like turns into a different person and then slowly decays over time. I don't think that's what it is, but my concern is that for many people we're close to that in our understanding of Peptides is just this seems like a crazy thing with a lot of crazy names that people are yelling about on Reddit. So can you just like, like anchor us in the biology of what is this?

[Perry Wilson]

Yes, yes. It does not make hot young women pop out of your back. At least not yet.

[Emily Oster]

We haven't found the peptide for that is my is my guess.

[Perry Wilson]

Let's talk about that. Okay. So the first thing you have to know is what a protein is. So protein is the building blocks of our bodies. And proteins are composed of little building blocks, which are called amino acid. There's about 20 that humans use in our proteins, and they're all different, but they all stick together just like. Like Lego blocks all do, right? They have one end and the other, and they kind of fit together. And you can take those 20amino acids and combine them in any combinations that you want to make various proteins. Now, proteins can have, you know, thousands of amino acids. They can be very, very complicated. Peptides are little pieces of proteins, and the definitions vary, but most people say that peptides are somewhere south of 50amino acids. So you're talking much, much smaller than a protein, but you're still using those same 20amino acids. And just to explain why, Reddit and Instagram, like, has an explosion of all these things with, you know, these crazy names and numbers attached to them. If you want to do the math, okay, if you have 20amino acids that you can combine into a chain of 50, the possible combinations, and I had to get out my scientific calculator for this, the number of different peptides you could create is the same roughly as the number of atoms in every star in our galaxy. Okay. There is a nearly infinite possibility of the number of peptides that are out there.

[Emily Oster]

Okay? So we've got these peptides, potentially an infinite number of them. But I think that the question is, why would having more of some peptide. I understand we have amino acids. They make peptides, they make proteins. We need those. Why would supplementing myself with some peptides have any impact at all on anything?

[Perry Wilson]

Oh, sure. Well, so peptides, if you have a chain of amino acids, what's gonna happen is they're gonna fold into, like, some kind of shape based on their chemical nature. So these are not like a long stack. That's just a line based on what the amino acids are. They kind of fold and shape into, like, little globby shapes, which is how your body signals to do stuff in a lot of ways. So there are receptors for different shapes on your cells, and different peptides, at least purportedly, will stimulate certain receptors, and those receptors tell your cells what to do. So it's almost like, you know, you can imagine a key and lock analogy or something. You have these. These locks on your cells, and you're trying to inject something that's going to form the key to open the lock. That's the theory, at least. And a lot of these peptides, while based on proteins that you can ingest or that exist in your body. Not all of them are, you know, some of them come from animals. Some of them are completely synthetic.

[Emily Oster]

And so the idea is if I had more of some of these peptides, I could encourage my cells to do more of something that I want. So I think a good example that probably anchors for people is the GLP1s are peptides.

[Perry Wilson]

Yeah, classic.

[Emily Oster]

So semaglutide, tirzepatide, these things that people are taking for weight loss, those are peptides. They are injected and then they are encouraging something that then causes you to be less hungry and have all kinds of other impacts. But it's just a. It's just a peptide to try to get your body to do more of something which it might do otherwise. But you want more of it.

[Perry Wilson]

Exactly. And just to give a sense of, like, the diversity of peptides, I've told you, there's infinite, but because the shape is really what dictates the function of molecules in your body, here's some other examples. So, GLP ones, you said aspartame, the artificial sweetener. Okay.

[Emily Oster]

Like in diet.

[Perry Wilson]

So, yeah, I'm not sure which one is in Diet Coke, but yes, like, you know, the one that people actually a lot of wellness influencers are worried about. Aspartame is a peptide. It's two amino acids stuck together. They just happen to make a shape that stimulates the sugar receptor on your tongue. So it just like, makes you think it's sweet, but it's not. It's just a peptide B venom. For example, the. The main protein in bee venom is called melatonin, and that's a peptide. So that can be something that really hurts when you inject it, for example. Right. And so one of my concerns, and actually I'd like to play you a clip, is people suggesting that peptides are really safe because of their sort of nature of being something like a protein. So take a listen to this. Peptides are sequences of amino acids. And why is that important? Because your body recognizes these. It can break them down. They're called metabolites, and it can get rid of the waste. When we put chemicals, synthetics, and pharmaceuticals into our body, there's no natural way for our body to break them down down and get rid of them. So, Emily, here we have, you know, someone being like, hey, these are just amino acids. Like, your body knows what to do. That therefore safe. What do you think?

[Emily Oster]

That doesn't sound right to me. I mean, I think, you know, there. The fact that Something is naturally occurring in the world and is an amino acid definitely does not mean that it is safe.

[Perry Wilson]

It clearly doesn't. Right. Like snake venom has peptides in it. Right. There's, there's, there's lots of things. But I think people, one of the reasons that peptides are exploding and actually one of the regulatory reasons you can get your hands on these things even, is because of this idea that like, well, they're just made of amino acids after all.

[Emily Oster]

Right, all right, so let's talk about whether these actually matter for anything. And I actually want to start with a place where I think the evidence is the best, which is in the space of collagen. So I hear people talk about collagen peptides both for your face and for your joint health. So this comes up actually a lot in endurance sports. People talk about, I need my joints to not be so elderly and creaky. And so I should take these collagen peptides in a lot of endurance sports drinks. It's a thing. And so my sense is that the evidence on this is at least reasonably good in the case of your skin. So we have some meta analyses of trials in which using collagen peptides, typically in a kind of topical way, can have significant improvements in your skin hydration and elasticity. Now, okay, in that particular meta analysis, there was a subtlety, which is that when you only looked at studies that were not sponsored by industry, the effects were not there. So capitalism. But I'm curious whether you like, if you were interested in improving your already lovely skin elasticity, would you use a collagen peptide?

[Perry Wilson]

I mean, maybe I don't care that much about it, but, but, you know, whatever. I'm a, I'm a 46 year old man, so I, I know that there are some, there's some differing opinions here. I mean, the interesting thing about collagen peptides is that they're basically the only peptide to exist in a regulatory landscape that makes it easy and safe to get. Because the FDA has recognized that coll, collagen itself is safe. They call it generally recognized as safe, which means you can be a supplement company and you can put collagen in a pill and you can give it to people. Collagen peptides, all it is is they take collagen and they digest it with an enzyme. So collagen is a big protein with, you know, thousands, literally thousands of amino acids, and then they just digest it down into kind of manageable pieces. Very similar, honestly, to what your, your digestive system does when you eat a big protein. But that said, the collagen peptides are, because they're smaller, absorb through the skin a little bit better, absorb through the GI tract a little bit better. And you're delivering, in that sense, you're delivering some of these proteins, some of these constituents of the stuff that makes your skin, you know, firm and elastic directly to the site that you want them to be delivered. And to me, that seems fine. You know, this is one of those things I tell people, listen, it's not terribly expensive. If you feel like trying it, try it. You know, try to be honest with yourself if you think you really look better. If you don't, save your money.

[Emily Oster]

Yes, save your money is perhaps good advice in, in general, in everything we hear about on social media. So beyond collagen, I think there are actually a couple of other things where a couple of other FDA approved peptides which treat actually somewhat unusual things. So one of them is for tanning and one is for improving female sexual desire. Did I get that right?

[Perry Wilson]

Sort of, yeah. The, the one for tanning called Atha melanotide. It's not FDA approved to get utan. It does, but it does get utan. It's, it's approved for a very rare condition called erythropoietic protoporphyria, which very few people have, but it does stimulate the melanin receptor, which is what, what makes you tan. And so people who receive this drug do get tan. And it's worth thinking about just because there is a pathway for peptides to go through the same approval process that every other drug has to go through. The same purity standards, the same testing, the same manufacturing practices. And they can do really interesting things. Like, it's true, the, the female hypoactive sexual desire disorder, which, Emily, this. We definitely need to do a whole show about this. It's fascinating. That's a peptide product called Vylisi, which was approved to treat this condition. It does apparently increase sexual desire in women. It also causes nausea in 40% of people who take it, which I don't know how those two things are compatible, but apparently they are.

[Emily Oster]

Well, you don't know. It could be the 60% of people who are not nauseous. You know, it's, it's trade off.

[Perry Wilson]

Fair enough. Yeah, you're flipping an interesting coin there. The. And of course we should. You mentioned Already, the, the GLP1 receptors are peptides and insulin, which, you know, maybe saved more lives than any other injectable drug that we've ever created, is also A peptide product. So there is a pathway, but I think there's a lot of people who are trying to kind of jump that evidence gun and potentially taking on more risk than they know that they are taking on.

[Emily Oster]

What about the evidence on joint pain? Most of this evidence is in athletes, some of it's in older people.

[Perry Wilson]

Yeah, it's there, it's there. I mean, so we do have another meta analysis and for everyone, a meta analysis is just a study of studies. So it's a study that aggregates data from multiple other studies that have been done to try to kind of average out the variability and things like that. There was some evidence in this Meta analysis of 15 randomized trials of collagen peptides for joint pain, 12 of which were in athletes that showed some improvement in joint pain, that there was really no evidence for muscle building, which is the other thing that people sometimes suggest this being used for. Again, one of the problems we have when the outcome of a trial is subjective, like pain or fatigue or even depression. How your skin looks, how your skin looks is that it is very susceptible to what we call placebo effects. Like the idea that you're taking something. Now randomized controlled trial is going to have placebo controls. But just even because you have a placebo doesn't mean people can't, can't figure out what they're getting. Sometimes they taste a little bit different, they look a little bit different, things like that. So, you know, again, for joint pain, it's like it's, it's relatively safe, it's not going to hurt you. It's. They're non toxic. If it helps, that's great. I mean some, I don't even care if it's a placebo. Right. Like, if it helps and then you

[Emily Oster]

feel like it helps.

[Perry Wilson]

You feel like it helps. It helps. Go for it.

[Emily Oster]

Yeah. I mean this is an example, a place where I think we sort of bring together like often what we're looking for when we try to argue for causality. Question of, like, is it biologically plausible? I think the answer in the collagen peptide case is yeah, it's biologically plausible that, you know, this could have some, this could make some difference. And then we're looking for, you know, do we have evidence, either randomized evidence or even observational evidence, but here it's randomized. That suggests that we do see some impacts. I will say I take away from this. Like this is small.

[Perry Wilson]

Yeah.

[Emily Oster]

There are many other things one might do to address joint pain, like strength training and other things where Collagen could be like a little helpful, but is probably not the be all and end all and sort of. Similarly, my guess is the overall variation in skin elasticity across people is much greater than the treatment effect of a collagen peptide. Like, when you see someone on the Internet and their skin is amazing and they tell you they took collagen, I'm telling you it's that they have good genetics and or are using a filter. Not that they are taking collagen and are.

[Perry Wilson]

And are really good at makeup. Like, when I was looking at all the peptide stuff on Instagram and things, these videos, all I was like, oh my God, these people are just beautiful. Like, that's the. That is the requirement apparently to be an influencer is to like look really good on camera, you know, which is why I'm glad this is an audio podcast. No one has to look at my unfiltered face.

[Emily Oster]

Everyone would love it. Okay, so let's talk about the sort of third piece of the peptide conversation, which is the idea of using injected peptides for like longevity wound healing. And this is a much bigger space than the narrow. Like I'm taking some collagen to improve my face. It's like, you know, BPC150 set. There's a thing called the Wolverine stack, basically, Perry, there's a thing called the Wolverine Stack. And I guess. Do we want it? Say more.

[Perry Wilson]

Well, okay, Emily, let's take it from the highest authority in the land, Joe Rogan himself.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Well, that's the thing about peptides too.

[Perry Wilson]

The Wolverine stack, BP157 and TB500. I don't know if you ever get injured, if you ever get injured, get immediately on BP 157 and TB 500. I didn't hear about TB 500. Which, what's that one? Thymosin beta 500 incongruity conjunction with BPC 157. It is a phenomenal stack and just really helps injuries.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

I didn't know they called it the Wolverines.

[Perry Wilson]

That's what they call it, the Wolverines. Yeah, cuz you heal incredibly well. Like you like it quickly. I was talking to a pro football player, pulled his hamstring. He's like, dude, I. I shot that right into my hamstring for two weeks and I was right back on the field. Wow. I was like, that's nuts. Yeah. So first of all, Joe Rogan, Ben Affleck, Matt Damon in that clip. I mean, we are really blowing against the wind here, Emily. I mean, I don't know that we can compete.

[Emily Oster]

No, totally not. I mean, Matt.

[Perry Wilson]

Yeah, all right, but let's. Let. Let's. I think BPC 157 because of Joe Rogan, honestly. And. And the Wolverine stack is BPC157 combined with TB500, which is another injectable peptide. I think it's really emblematic of the space. And so. No, we are not. I. I have to apologize to our listeners. There are like hundreds and hundreds of marketed peptides out there. We just simply can't get to all of them and, like, whether they work and how they work. But I think there's some real big principles here that BPC157 sort of teaches us. So let's start there and kind of. Kind of walk through it.

[Emily Oster]

Totally.

[Perry Wilson]

So BPC157, this is a peptide that was initially isolated from human gastric juices, which is weird.

[Emily Oster]

Okay, but fine, you know, as you said, you can get peptides from anywhere. Why not from your gastric juices?

[Perry Wilson]

Sure. But, you know, because it's being promoted for healing and everything. You kind of. I was like, oh, it must have been isolated from, like, healing cells or something, whatever. But, you know, hey, the gastric mucosa is. Is a hostile environment. So. So maybe there's some biologic plausibility there. The data for BPC157 is essentially entirely in mice and rats. So you injure a rat, like, you sever. This is cruel a little bit, but this is how science works.

[Emily Oster]

Research in rats and mice is cruel.

[Perry Wilson]

I know. So trigger warning for pet rat owners. They will sever part of a rat's Achilles tendon, and then they either inject this stuff or they inject a placebo, and then they see how fast the Achilles tendon heals. And some of those studies in mice and rats do show accelerated healing with. With PPC 157.

[Emily Oster]

Okay, I just want to pause on the question of mice and rat studies, because I feel like a tremendous amount of the data that we have in the world about all kinds of different treatments come from mice and rats, because mice and rats are really easy to experiment on. You can do all kinds of stuff with them, like cut their Achilles and do other things and look in their brains and kill them and do all kinds of things, which may be sad, but are effective for learning. And we always then have the question of how do we take the evidence from mice and rats into humans? And, you know, there. There, I think are really good learnings. But someone said to me the other day, you know, if we were mice, we would have solved, like, everything. Because actually in mice, you know, you can really titrate and be careful. And there's a lot of things that work in mice, but then when we bring them into humans, it doesn't work. Or the effect size is totally different, or just, just this doesn't port over.

[Perry Wilson]

Yeah, we're just not the same creatures. But there's even bigger issues than that, particularly when it comes to the longevity space, because mice and rats don't live as long as people in their natural states. You know, mice might live a year or two, rats might live a little bit longer. But you know what? In these research studies, they're not letting these mice live to a ripe old age. Right. What you do is you, you know, you do your little Achilles tendon thing and then you watch them for a couple weeks as they heal, and then you. The euphemism is sacrifice the mice, you know, humanely.

[Emily Oster]

That's the euphemism.

[Perry Wilson]

That's the euphemism is sacrifice. You kill the mice in as humane a way as possible. And there are protocols for that. And then, and then, you know, you can extract their organs and look them under the microscope and do all that stuff. So even if we're like, oh, yeah, this appears to heal Achilles tendons, the larger scale questions of, like, what happens if you're doing this repeatedly on a weekly basis for years and years and years, like, we're not even close to knowing that. And, and there are some concerns here. So BPC157, thanks to the mice, we know a little bit about how it might work. Aside from the general magic of being a gastric juice peptide, BPC157 appears to bind a receptor called VEGF, or vascular endothelial growth growth factor, which promotes the growth of blood vessels into tissues. And sure, that makes sense. If you're talking about healing, you want a lot of blood flow. Like, that's, that's no doubt a good thing. One of the problems, actually, you probably can guess the problem. Emily, what's wrong if we promote blood vessel growth into tissues too much?

[Emily Oster]

I actually, I feel like this is like when my 14 year old asked me about her biology homework. And I feel like I'm just, I'm. No, I don't know.

[Perry Wilson]

Cancer is begging for blood vessels to come into the tumors. And one of our main therapies to treat cancer. Cancer is blocking VEGF because it turns off that signal that the cancer is saying, like, ooh, give me blood. Grow blood vessels into me. And then the cancer starves and dies. And so there is a theoretical concern that, you know, ongoing stimulation of receptors like this could lead to cancer. And we have no idea if that's true because you kill the mouse, you know, a week after you give the injection. So just something to be aware of there.

[Emily Oster]

When we look at this particular thing in people, I would say my read is that, like, we don't have. Have much evidence in any direction that this is effective in people. We don't have any randomized control trials. We don't have a lot of just. We just don't have anything.

[Perry Wilson]

Correct. Only anecdote, which is, unfortunately the problem.

[Emily Oster]

Yeah, yeah. Anecdote is not data. I mean, this whole space, this wolverine stack, all of the other stacks, the different things really has the feel of like, there's an interesting potential, something to explore based on the animal data, but nothing in the people data that would say this should be widely adopted based on efficacy foundation. And then we are worried about, you know, some of the potential risks to using such a treatment.

[Perry Wilson]

Absolutely right. And I think that's the prudent point. But we also have to realize that a, there are a lot of people out there that are potentially suffering with something. And a lot of times the medical establishment that I am a part of does a poor job of this. Right. They've got joint pain. They have something, you know, yes, sure. They were told to do physical therapy. They're told to do strength training, and things just aren't working. So there's a desperation there. Like, this does fulfill a need that I think some people have. And then there's a whole group of people, you know, the kind of biohackers who are like, yeah, yeah, I understand in theory that we would like to have a large randomized trial to prove that this works. But I'm not gonna wait for that. Like, this stuff seems great. My buddy says it's great. This guy online says it's perfectly safe. You know, lfg, like, let's go and I'll sort of throw caution to the wind, I think, as much as we can say, like, well, guys, I don't know. There's no hard data. It's. It's still going to happen. And so I think, anticipating that this stuff is out there, we might want to try to give people some, like, tools to be able to separate at least what is potentially safe from what is potentially not safe. Even if we throw evidence out the window.

[Emily Oster]

Window, yeah. So I want to start with actually the. Just noting that the. Okay, so let's kind of back up there when we think about peptides. There are some peptides that people take orally other than some of these collagen peptides. Generally oral peptides are totally ineffective because they break down in your stomach and are not therefore absorbed. So if somebody is telling you, here are some gummies with this amazing peptide, like that's just a money toilet, like you're just putting your money in a money toilet and flushing it away. Correct?

[Perry Wilson]

I think broadly, yes. There are ways to make peptides more stable in the GI tract. Oral peptide consumption is basically going to be safe, you know, even if you are ingesting like bee venom because it's not effective.

[Emily Oster]

It's, it's safe because it's useless. Your stomach is eating it.

[Perry Wilson]

Correct. And so, so I don't worry too much about people, you know, wasting their money, me on things. I, you know, I'm a, I'm a libertarian in that sense.

[Emily Oster]

No, I will say I worry about that because I feel like exactly to the point you had before, which is, you know, people are struggling with this, they want to get help and then online someone's telling them, oh, just take this gummy bee venom and like, it's going to fix all of your, of your problems. I actually think that really gets in the way of people finding solutions that might actually work for them. So I am more worried than you are about the kind of, of I'm buying this unapproved thing that somebody on TikTok told me about, even if it is not actually unsafe. Although I agree with you, it's worse if there's a potential safety risk.

[Perry Wilson]

Yeah. I mean, the trick here is being honest with yourself and really trying to determine whether this thing that you tried, if you're going to try it, helped you or not. Like, is your life better or not? Is it worth the expense or not? We think. I agree with you. It probably isn't most of the time.

[Emily Oster]

Okay. But then there are these products that you're injecting. So most of these peptides would be delivered to the extent they could be efficacious at all. They are delivered through an injection like a GLP1. But these, unlike the GLP1s, are not in an FDA approved product category. So generally the FDA does not approve these peptides, which are made by compounding pharmacies and are not regulated because the FDA has actually now said they are illegal to compound. That includes the BPC157 and all of these other ones. And so if you're getting these they are not from an FDA approved supplier.

[Perry Wilson]

I think this is such an important point and I want to play a clip here about someone who's trying to talk about safe sourcing of peptides.

[Bethenny Frankel]

So today you and I are going to have a little chit chat about where you're getting your peptides from from. There are a couple different ways that you can get your hands on peptides. One is going to your doctor and getting a pharmaceutical prescription for it. Option number two, compound pharmacy. But there are two split offs that come up when we talk about compound pharmacies. So one is going to be pharmaceutical grade, human grade, made for human beings. The other is research grade. This is the one that I am telling my clients to stay away from. There's not the same amount of oversight. We don't have third party.

[Perry Wilson]

So I really do think, because, you know, if, if you're listening to this and you're like, well, I don't know, Joe Rogan says BPC157 is good. Like I want to get some, my hands on some BPC157. It is important to know what the regulatory landscape is here. Compounding pharmacies are pharmacies that have a license to mix drugs. That's what compounding is. They can make their own concoctions under, you know, specific conditions, ideally sterile conditions that they can then, then sell for injections and things like that. Compounding pharmacies are regulated at the state, not the federal level, which gives this whole crazy patchwork of what's legal across the country. And because you can ship these things from state to state, it basically is like a lowest common denominator of what the compounding pharmacy can do. Many of the peptides that you'll see out there on Instagram are able to be made in compounded pharmacies. But many of the most popular ones, as you said, Emily, are not. So BPC157, this Wolverine stack peptide out of Joe Rogan fame was classified by the FDA as a Category 2 substance, which is one that has significant evidence for harm. And compounding pharmacies are not allowed to synthesize or create anything that is category two or they lose their license. That's illegal. So if you're getting BPC157, you're actually not getting it from a compounding pharmacy. You're getting it from overseas, almost certainly. And most of it comes from China. So again, BPC 157 I think is like the poster child for this set of problems. It's marketed aggressive, it's got a. I mean, Wolverine stack. Like, that is amazing.

[Emily Oster]

Totally awesome.

[Perry Wilson]

Like, I'm a superhero fan. Like, that is great marketing. It's got really impressive influencers come out of your hand. Like, I mean, I would do it. I would do it if you show me. You've got these impressive influencers talking about it. You have, you know, anecdotal evidence from. Or anecdotal stories, I should say, from people saying how great it is, but it's actually like, deemed unsafe. You have to source it from some external country and we have no idea what its actual effects are. And that's sort of the space right now. It's like, it's pretty much the Wild West. And when it comes to eating something, you know, I'm more experimental when it comes to injecting things into your body. Like, you don't really want the Wild West.

[Bethenny Frankel]

Yeah.

[Emily Oster]

And I mean, there are all kinds of examples in the past of things that were injectable that turn out bad. I was looking at this Scientific American article from a number of years ago about stem cells where someone had like, injected some ste cells to try to fix some eyelid problem and they ended up growing tiny bones in their eyelid which need to be removed. I'm not saying that's going to happen here.

[Perry Wilson]

That is worse than the substance.

[Emily Oster]

It is somewhat worse. Well, I don't. I don't. I know you may not have watched the substance.

[Perry Wilson]

That's pretty gross.

[Emily Oster]

It's pretty gross. But I mean, I feel like there is a general sense that injecting yourself with things, it runs a risk of. Of infection. And it is just a much more extreme approach to this than. Than say, eating something, which again, I don't think that makes sense in this context for almost any of these peptides.

[Perry Wilson]

Let me give you two more risks of injecting things into your body. As if we don't have enough number one allergy. As you may know, when we eat things, we have this whole immune system in our gut that surveils them for allergens and gives us tolerance to the things we eat. This is why, like Emily, I'm sure you've talked about, it's actually good for little kids to like, get kind of dirty and put dirt in their mouths and stuff like that so that they

[Emily Oster]

have less hygiene hypothesis.

[Perry Wilson]

Allergic reactions.

[Premier Protein/Klarna Advertiser]

Right.

[Perry Wilson]

That's what our GI tract does when we get what are called antigens, which are peptides or proteins or other things via another route, like the injection or sometimes the inhalation route. A whole different Immune reaction occurs, and that is an allergen forming immune reaction. It is worth noting that the first time you get stung by a bee is not when you have the anaphylactic response to a bee sting. If you're allergic to bees, it's the second time. Time. The first time the allergy starts to get learned and woken up, essentially. And then the second time you get stung, you have the anaphylactic shock. As I said, there's infinite peptides you could theoretically inject into you, and it is likely that some, at the very least, will cause severe allergies in some people. So be aware of that. Number two is what we call autoimmunity. So your immune system is this amazing thing that surveils all the cells in your body and decides, is this me or is this something else? And in general, if you're healthy, it looks at your cells and says, oh, yeah, this is me. I don't need to attack this. This is myself. We're okay. Autoimmunity is when the immune system starts to recognize something in your own body that is you, but it doesn't recognize it as you anymore, so it attacks it. And, you know, lupus, for example, is the. The prototypical, like autoimmune syndrome, where your immune system is attacking these various cells in your body. When you inject a protein into yourself, you form antibodies to that protein. That is how vaccines work. When we inject a COVID vaccine, antibodies form against the spike protein. And that works because the spike protein is not you. And so when the immune system sees the spike protein again, it can attack that many of these peptides are derived from human proteins. And if your immune system starts to recognize those peptides as foreign, there's a chance that they might start to attack your own proteins that contain those peptides as foreign. And that could be really bad. It could almost do the opposite of what you want these things to do. Right, because you want these peptides to stimulate, you know, this system. And now all of a sudden, you have antibodies that are directly attacking the system. That could be an issue in the long term.

[Emily Oster]

That does seem like an issue in the long term. Okay, so, Perry, I honestly feel like we could just list all of these. These peptides that exist in the world and just talk about why there's no evidence for them. You know, there's TB500, there's GHKCU. There are a million of these peptides. And if we talked about every one, I think in nearly all cases, what we would say was, you know, maybe There's a little bit of suggestive something in mice and there's nothing to say in people. And there are these risks of injecting yourself with, with random things which you want to be careful about. So I do want to acknowledge the people who are listening who are like, I hear you about this, but it sounds good. I'm interested in trying. And so if someone came, you know, you're a doctor, somebody comes to you and they're like, look, I'm really interested in trying to inject myself with a bunch of different peptides. I just feel like it's like, that's for me this week. Is there any way to ameliorate some of the concerns that you have about such activities?

[Perry Wilson]

Yeah, I mean, so, you know, you're, you're probably not going to get them from me directly because I don't think the risk benefit calculus is there. But yeah, just to understand, let's accept the fact that people are going to do this. Like, you know, we, we cannot fight the ties.

[Emily Oster]

Ben Affleck comes to you and asks for some advice. What's the advice?

[Perry Wilson]

All right, Ben, what was up with G. Did you need to do that? Like, was she pressuring you? Okay, if you're going to do it. Okay. Realize that if someone tells you that they're getting some of these peptides like GPC157 from a compounding pharmacy, they're not. It's not legal, so it's coming from outside of the US So, so be a little skeptical of, you know, wherever you're getting them from, if you are getting that. And there are places that do a better job of trying to be reputable in this space. And what they do is they farm out the substance to an independent testing laboratory, which issues what's called a certificate of analysis, which basically says, like, we tested the stuff in here, and yes, it is what it says it is. The things you're looking for on a certificate of analysis, number one is purity. Is it actually, you know, is it, is it clean? Is it the stuff you want? You want basically greater than 98% purity to feel comfortable. Number two, you want testing for something called endotoxin. This is a bacterial byproduct that causes, causes sepsis and inflammation. You do not want endotoxin in anything you inject into your body. It's also the thing that causes toxic shock syndrome. You want heavy metal testing. So a lot of these that have come from China and other countries are contaminated with lead and other heavy metals. So you want to, you want the certificate of analysis to demonstrate there's no heavy metals there. You want sterility testing. So they've confirmed that it's sterile, it doesn't contain bacteria or anything. And finally you want to check the certificate analysis, which should list the batch number and the lot number against the one on the thing you're injecting or else. Right. It could just be referring to some other one that was tested years ago. And I know that sounds insane and maybe that more than anything else is going to convince people not to use these things, but I do think if, if all of these pieces are in place, you may be okay. I would not recommend long term use though because we really just don't know the effects. And I've got, I am quite concerned about allergy and autoimmunity with repeat. All right, Emily talked a lot here. What's your one thing about peptides?

[Emily Oster]

Don't inject something in yourself that's not FDA approved just because it worked on a rat.

[Perry Wilson]

That's a good thing.

[Emily Oster]

What about you?

[Perry Wilson]

I'm not ready to give up on this, but there's some serious snake oil vibes here.

[Emily Oster]

Fair enough. All right, that's enough about peptides. Possibly too much. Who knows? Stay tuned after the break for our listener mail bag.

[Premier Protein Advertiser]

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[Bethenny Frankel]

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[Perry Wilson]

Hi, I'm Elaine Perry, this is Eric from Cambridge, Massachusetts. I'm 44 and keep hearing about the so called Ink Cliff. You know like in your mid-40s you wake up one day and everything feels harder. Workouts just don't work, weight creeps up, sleep gets weird and recovery just takes forever. Is this actually a thing or just a mix of lifestyle changes, stress and not moving as much as we used to? What's actually happening like hormonally, metabolically, around the city age? Should I start wearing my pants higher now? All right, so as a 46 year old man boy does this question resonate with me. It's referring just so everyone knows this, 44 is referring to a study that Appeared in Nature medicine of about 100 people, if I'm remembering correctly, across a range of ages. And it measured hundreds and hundreds of things in their blood, you know, DNA methylation, and all these things that are supposed to change with age. And what they were looking for is like, is there a linear decline in any of these things over time, time, or in all of these things over time? That was the expectation. What they actually found was that there's kind of a linear decline over time and then a more abrupt decline at around age 44 that then kind of levels out and then another abrupt decline at age 60. And, you know, this has gotten sort of blown up to be like, these are the cliffs. Like, age 44 and age 60. That's the baseline. Emily's rolling her eyes. What's the truth, Emily?

[Emily Oster]

I mean, I think there is almost nothing in biology that falls off a cliff like this. Like, we have. There are so many things where people quote them as falling off a cliff. Your fertility falls off a cliff at 35. This and that. Like, fundamentally, that is not usually how biology works. This is also not, in my view, a large enough sample size to, like, really sort of definitively draw some kind of cutoff in this way. So I guess for me, like, my prior is everything just gets worse slowly over time. And I'm not sure I update very much, much on that prior based on this fairly limited data. It is true that as we age, everything gets worse. Slow decline.

[Perry Wilson]

I have one other thought.

[Emily Oster]

Okay.

[Perry Wilson]

Which is that this is based on personal experience, that this is the age, like, the mid-40s, when our kids are kind of old enough to fend for themselves a little bit more. And I, like, we all start kind of venturing out more. Like, I'm doing more activities. I'm, like, playing golf, and I'm lifting weights, which I didn't do before. And I'm, like, definitely injuring myself. And I wonder if it's just actually the fact that, like, we're doing. We're actually doing a little bit more than we would have used to. I don't know.

[Emily Oster]

Yeah, this is the age where all of the men in my. I am also 46, and all of the sort of men in my social group have decided to, like, start playing soccer and lacrosse again. And, like, you know that somebody's like, I'm going to play lacrosse. You know, the next time you see them, they're going to have a broken foot. And it's just, like, really, really consistent.

[Perry Wilson]

Exactly. That's the actual cliff.

[Emily Oster]

I don't think that there is a. An age cliff in this way, but the fact that as you age through your mid-40s, things start to feel harder. Like that's. That's true. And it's probably a time people have to think more about, you know, how to prioritize their sleep and. And so on.

[Perry Wilson]

I do have a secret peptide that only I know that stops the aging cliff. But you have to subscribe to my like and subscribe.

[Emily Oster]

Like and subscribe. I. I had one mailbag fil up from last week that I just. I want for the purposes of being honest with our listeners. So in last week's episode, the question was asked, you know, what is something you do that's not based on evidence? And I said, you know, everything I do is based on evidence. And at dinner, my husband. Hi Jesse, listened to it and at dinner was like, I can't believe you said that. So much of what you do is not based on evidence. And so I just wanted to say that I then started reflecting on some of my behaviors, and I think he may be right. So, for example, I'm having some sciatica, and so I am now routinely using a machine that electrically stimulates the glute muscles to try to fix my sciatica. And I do have to admit I don't think that's based on evidence. So I apologize for not coming up up with that.

[Perry Wilson]

Last week, an immense amount of transparency and honesty from the Wellness actually podcast, separating us from all other people in this space who never back down from anything they say, ever.

[Emily Oster]

All right, that's it for us for today. Stick with us next week when we'll ask, what's the deal with cold plunges and saunas? Wellness Actually is produced in association with iHeartMedia. Our senior producer is Tamar Avishai. Our executive producer is Jennifer Bassett. Our theme music is by Eric Deutsch, and our content is for educational purposes only.

[Perry Wilson]

If you like the show, help other people find us, leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or your podcatcher of choice and help us spread the word about the show. Don't give the tiktokers all the power. And don't forget, we want to hear from you. You head over to wellnessactually FM and leave us a question for our mailbag or suggest a topic for a future show.

[Emily Oster]

We'll let the influencers have the last word.

[Perry Wilson]

I've gotten a ton of questions about what a peptide even is, so let me make this stupid simple. Peptides are short chain amino acids. They're fragments of protein. They're not steroids or drugs or some fairy dust that some influencer talks about. So imagine your body is, well, like my 911 Turbo S. Now imagine somebody handed you the upgrade file, the tuning file that gets your car to use all the stuff that it already has but forgot was even there. That's what a peptide is. It's not forcing anything. It's saying, hey, you know all this hidden horsepower? Yeah, do that. Peptides are like voice commands for your biology. They walk into the pit crew of your body. Fire up fat.

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Your curls will thank you.

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[Bethenny Frankel]

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