A (4:03)

That's.

B (4:04)

Yes.

A (4:05)

Wow.

B (4:06)

There's a red flag in there too. Look at that.

A (4:08)

That's amazing. I love it.

B (4:10)

So this is a new edition. This is the 2025 edition and it's been in publication since 2000 2010. And I have a new publisher now. We've just redesigned the whole book. So this is basically Zach King, my son. It's his voice because he helped me really write it in the beginning. So there's some kid friendly language and it's him telling the story, not an adult. So kids can kind of feel like, oh, okay, I can see myself in that story. That's a real kid. And this happens to other kids. And so it's more relatable.

A (4:45)

I love that.

B (4:46)

That's.

A (4:46)

I love that he helped you write it. And it's, you know, kind of told from his voice. I think that that's one thing at Bark that we try to do is like, how can we speak to kids in their language and, you know, help them feel more comfortable about the things that they might not otherwise want to talk about.

B (5:02)

Exactly.

A (5:05)

So you know, you've written. I've got another one down here. Body Safety for Young Children. Empowering Caring Adults. So this is for the parents.

B (5:15)

Yes. So I wrote this book, and it sold, I think, something like over 250,000 copies, close to 300,000.

A (5:23)

That's amazing.

B (5:24)

But I wrote it for children. And obviously this is a book that parents would read with their kids. But then I thought, well, someone might assume that I'm saying that child sexual abuse is the responsibility of the kid to protect. And that's not what I'm saying. So then I decided I really needed to write something for parents. So that is basically like, you know, the book what to Expect when youn're Expecting. It's like that, but for Preventing Child Sexual Abuse. So it's for parents and teachers, and it's full of our background story. It has resources of other books that I recommend because, you know, my book isn't perfect for everybody. And then websites, it has lesson plans, scripts, talks about, like, how to identify grooming, and red flags. And it's very comprehensive. What's neat about it is I interviewed survivors to really give it an extra punch. So I learned so much while I was writing the book. Wow.

A (6:20)

Yeah, that's. I love that you included that. Survivor's story.

B (6:25)

Yeah. And I think the most important takeaway from. Or actually, there's so many great takeaways from that, but I interviewed a survivor who was being abused when he was about five or six years old.

A (6:38)

And.

B (6:38)

And his kindergarten, our first grade teacher kept noticing, you know, he was misbehaving. He used to be the quiet kid. He used to follow the rules. He was very quiet. And, you know, all of a sudden, basically overnight, his behavior changed, and he became aggressive and violent. And she just kept sending him to the office, sending him to the office, getting him a suspension, all of these things. But not once in, like, three years of this behavior did anybody ever ask him, are you okay? Is something going on? Nobody asked him. And he said to me, if somebod would have asked me, I would have. I would have told.

A (7:13)

Right?

B (7:14)

So, yeah, it's.

A (7:15)

It's. You know, you think you have to think about how scary it must be as a kid to be in that position. And, you know, they probably think, I'm gonna get in trouble for this. And so they oftentimes don't say anything. And I think that, you know, part of probably what you're teaching is that, you know, you have to speak up and you have to be confident knowing that if you go to A trusted adult with this information, they're going to help, you know, help you how they can.

B (7:47)

Yeah, exactly. And I think for kids, telling is one of the hardest things to do because a lot of kids don't even know that, that this is wrong, that that adults shouldn't be doing these types of things to them or that other kids shouldn't be doing these types of things. So there's that just like the lack of awareness that this is not okay. Then in that book and, and in the research you find that parents, step parents, anybody that's actively, you know, molesting a child, they use these manipulation techniques to keep them quiet. And they're not just like, if you tell, you're going to be in trouble. They can be extreme. Like, if you tell, I'm going to kill somebody, or if I, if you tell, I'm gonna, you know, get rid of your cat. Like very violent, aggressive threats are also things that happen. So children are literally terrified because they're trying to protect another family member or not break up the family or, you know, it's just, it's a lot for a little seven or eight year old to have on their shoulders, Right?

A (8:48)

Yeah. Gosh, I can't imagine, you know, you, you obviously talk a lot about body safety with parents and kids. What's something that parents might be surprised to learn when you're speaking with them?

B (9:03)

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think when I talk to parents, most of them are surprised to learn even still to this day, that most of this abuse happens within the circles of the people that we know love and trust. But most parents are shocked when I say that the statistics for child to child sexual abuse, which is called coxa, that statistic has jumped from. It used to be accounting for 40% of all child sexual abuse, but now it's up to 68% of reported child sexual abuse. Wow. And when I say that, everybody's like, whoa, maybe we better not have that sleepover, maybe we better not do that play date yet, you know, wow. And that statistic is jumping, I think, for a variety of reasons. It depends, like what you look at and who you talk to. But one of them is the access to pornography and the access to social media and the, and the phones. Right. And I guess, you know, like the average age a kid sees pornography now is like 10 or 11. So a lot of times young children will repeat the things that they see without any harm or, you know, ill intent. They're just repeating something. Right. So that happens. But yeah, it's a shocking statistic. On the positive side of that statistic is that that may be jumping because we are educating kids and they are reporting more. So it's hard to tease it out. But yeah, yeah, that's.

A (10:31)

We did a documentary, Childhood 2.0. And one of the things that I think it's when a group of girls are being interviewed, you know, they're talking about like hookups happening and what these expectations that these boys have of like, what it should be like. And they just think it's totally normal. And the girls are also like, I just kind of like expect them to think that that's normal. And so for both boys and girls to feel like this is just how it happens and it's not, it's crazy. I have a friend who has little, little ones. And I will never forget when she texted me one day and she's, you know, part of, you know, us being friends is she's learning a lot about what I do, but she's having a lot of conversations with other moms in her, you know, in the school. And, and I will never forget when she texted me like, did you know that they're watching porn at school at like, like in the sixth grade? And I'm like, it's a, it is a sad reality that, you know, that's, that's what kids are doing these days. And the effects, I don't think people really understand necessarily.

B (11:40)

I agree 100% with that. I mean, I, I talk with a lot of parents too. So I have, you know, a kindergarten class and I have, they all have siblings. And then I, I work with parents, you know, consulting and things like that, and do workshops. They don't understand that their kids can access all this horrible content even when they're monitoring their phones, even when they're on top of it. There's ways to sneak around it. I was actually working with a parent whose daughter who was seven years old was on Roblox and had this game going with this friend who was 10 and months of going on. They were doing crafts and they were sharing cute pictures of kittens. And then this led into a request for an inappropriate picture. And this poor little girl was, you know, completely traumatized. She saw something that she didn't need to. Can you imagine? I mean, I can't even imagine being like a seven year old and seeing some of the things that these seven and eight year olds get in their inbox or in their message. It's horrifying. So, I mean, I think that's why, you know, what bark does and what all body safety educators do is so important because literally where we are right now, it's changing our children's brains. It's. It's creating trauma. They're going to be living a whole different life and their brain is going to develop in a whole different way. And the outcomes are just going to be nothing like our childhood. I mean, I feel lucky I wasn't raised in this time. But we do all have to do something. We have to take action.

A (13:13)

Yeah, definitely. And I think it's, you know, it's hard too. Parents are navigating this and it's the first time they've had to do it too. So it's a whole different ball game for parents and kids alike. You have these online safety classes that you offer. What can people expect to learn from those courses? Like, what are the takeaways?

B (13:35)

Sure. So I teach a class called Body Boss Boot Camp. That's a mouthful. That's for kids ages basically like four to eight. And they would sign up with their parents and the parent would sit behind them. And then I basically take apart the. I said no book section by section. But I'm like making it light, making it fun. And I'm putting on my Kim teacher hat where I'm like, you know, let's be, let's sing a song. You know, I make it light, I make it fun, we dance, we sing. But then we get to the important lesson maybe, you know, just making it a little less serious and making it a little less scary so that the kids engage and. And then parents are like, oh, okay. It's really not that hard to teach our kids the correct body terms. Look at that video. We're already done. Do you know the names of the parts? Great. And why do we need to know them in case something happens when, boom, that's it, move on. Right. So you don't have to make it this big scary ordeal. That's what the classes do. It's eight topics, eight minutes, eight minute chunks because attention span, you know, not that big. And then there's like little homework assignments for the kids to do and then there's resources for the parents as well. So that's the kid class. And then I have a free class that goes with the new book. So if you order a copy of the book, it's just like a gentle, light introduction to body safety so that everybody can feel comfortable about it. You know, like why we have to talk about it, why it's based really, like the beginnings of it are based in teaching Our kids emotional IQ information, like, are they able to identify their feelings? Are they able to express themselves? Can they identify when they're in danger, when they're uncomfortable? And what do we do about that? Like, the basics aren't really about, you know, anything other than being full of that type of knowledge and using it. So it's not a scary thing when you start early and you just cover it often and you just develop trust with your kids and then it's just like so much easier.

A (15:36)

Yeah. I think that it's a topic that, you know, you think, like, you hear someone say, you really need to talk to your kid about porn sooner than you might think. And like, that has to frighten people. And so I think thinking about it in a different lens, where it's like, nope, just start with the basics and like, build on it.

B (15:52)

Yeah, exactly.

A (15:53)

Yeah. Make it more of a. These are just the conversations we're having.

B (15:56)

Exactly. There's even a book for that. Like, there's a book for everything now. So there's the pic, the good pictures, bad pictures.

A (16:03)

Yep.

B (16:04)

I mean, if you're worried about that, which everyone should be like, you might as well read that book yet when your child is, you know, five or six and talk about it, because it's better for them to ask you the questions than it is for them to go Google, like, what is porn? Right, Right. Because imagine, imagine the search. So like, we have to be the search. We have to be filling in all of those questions and having those conversations. Awesome. Yeah.

A (16:32)

So I know you have your own podcast, the Mom Unity podcast, which I love that name so much. Can you tell us a little bit more about it? What can listeners expect when they're tuning in?

B (16:42)

Well, we just started it and it's only on YouTube right now. So it is me and my best friend, body safety educator and survivor Diane Tarantini. She wrote a book called the Brave Knight. Her book is about grooming and she specializes in educating parents on sibling sexual abuse. So we talk, and that is a very common form of abuse that nobody talks about even now. So we talk about just like little bite sized pieces of prevention. So we might have an episode about. I think we did one about sextortion and how there are three types and what parents need to know. But it's like 10 minutes long. Powerful tips. And that's it. We're building it. So that's awesome. It's. It's something you can listen to when you're like in the carpool lane or you're on your way to work just. And it's not overwhelming. And Diane, if you go look her up, her. I think her social media is writing Diane like she's just a hoot. And she's really fun to listen to and talk with and she will just lay it out there. And she's also written a memoir called Everyone Was Silent, which is excellent. Really, really good book too.

A (17:51)

I love that title. I'm intrigued.

B (17:53)

Oh, you gotta go get it. It's great. It reads like, like it should be a movie actually, because I was like, oh, like it's a cliffhanger. And I'm not gonna tell you why, but it's a great book. Okay, good to know.

A (18:03)

Adding it to my list.

B (18:04)

I have a lot of books on my list. I'm like a book maniac, so I love it.

A (18:09)

So you mentioned that this is a new version of the tell us kind of what's new about it and why. I mean, it's got the Mom's Choice award, which is awesome. So congrats on that.

B (18:19)

So it's basically the book that I always wanted to create but I couldn't with the constraints of the other publisher. So we've kind of revamped it. So the most important thing that's different is the definition of safe adults. So I used to have in the old edition that safe adults are people who make you feel safe. You know, they can come in an emergency. And then I gave a list of names like, and I said like mom, dad, auntie, the policeman. But just because somebody has a title like a fireman, I mean, sure, probably 90 of firemen are safe adults or police officers. But when we add a label to that, it just makes it inaccurate. So the new adult safe adult definition is basically anybody who would come in an emergency, makes you feel safe and comfortable, doesn't ask you to keep secrets, doesn't break your body safety rules, and is somebody who you can talk to about the really tough stuff. So it's just clarified that way. There's no misinterpreting, you know, anything.

A (19:31)

Right?

B (19:31)

Because I mean, there's so many stories in the news. But, but you know, we think about safe adults as teachers, right? I've always thought safe adults are teachers or counselors. And in the town I grew up in, last year there was a case of a female counselor who was married with kids and she was found having a whole relationship with a 12 year old boy. A sexual relationship with texts and with all sorts of gory details I won't go into. But so we, we can't Assume that any one type of person is a safe adult. And then also because of a few of the cases that I've been working on with parents, I felt like I really had to add the online safety piece. So we have a very kid friendly illustration that shows them what it looks like to be talking to, you think a 13 year old girl, but it might be like this creepy person in the basement. So we do a little bit of that. We talked about video game safety, we talked about texting. So it's just four new scenarios that are really critical to the time that these kids live in. I'm not saying I want 8 year olds to have a phone, but a lot of them already do. So that's kind of why I want that in there. And also now, because it's in there, parents will read that and go, oh, oh no, we're not going, we're not. Getting that phone.

A (20:54)

You know, helps them realize that the longer they can delay, the better.

B (20:59)

Absolutely. I mean, I wish I could have delayed with my kids. So I'm old And I have 20, I have like a 28 year old, a 26 year old and a 21 year old. So they, my 26 year old got a phone at age 12, the middle child. That was probably the biggest mistake of my life because he got involved in Instagram and streaming things, you know, and just the algorithm feeding him things about depression and suicide and all this stuff and just it has messed him up. I mean it really does affect how children develop and I think we're only now knowing how truly dangerous it is. Yeah.

A (21:44)

And I think the good thing is there's a lot it seems to be, you know, I think there's some credit due to Jonathan Haidt and the anxious generation movement. Just kind of waking parents up to realizing like, oh, this is, you know, this is something we need to be concerned about and aware of and educated about. You know, it's an entirely different world. I mean even the, you know, I always joke, you know, I grew up with like the Tumblr era. So like that was like the first real big social platform that I was on. And even that was miserable for me. So I can't imagine, you know, as a 32 year old adult, there's things that like I'm like, I can't look at this anymore. Like I've gotta turn the phone off. I recently set screen time limits on myself because I was like, I just can't consume this anymore. So thinking about kids who aren't really able to recognize that it's a totally different world that they're growing up in.

B (22:41)

It really is. And when parents don't know that there are all of these open doors for predators. And I guess if we break it down and try to get upstream of that, that's really the only way to do it. So talking about body safety education to kids and teaching parents, you know, how grooming happens and what it looks like in person, you know, that's one thing. But we also have to do that before we even consider, like, having any kind of. Any kind of devices. Right. I have kindergarteners who are like, yeah, we watch YouTube. And I'm like, oh, no. And I have an iPad. And so my poor parents that are in my class every week and this is something any teacher watching could do. Every week I send them a little bit of like a body safety tip or like an article about, you know, why video games aren't great right now. And just keeping parents posted on what's going on is really helpful to do for them because we've got a lot of parents that are, you know, working hard, don't have time to dig into all this research or explore it. But if they know, then they're going to make a change. If they know, they will take action. And so that's one thing as a teacher. So Erin Marin is. You might have heard of Erin's Law. She's a advocate and survivor who has passed laws in 38 states requiring schools, public schools, pre K to 12, to teach body safety education to the kids, to the teachers and the parents. It's like this comprehensive curriculum. And I said no. Was just added to that curriculum as a resource. And it's interesting though, because when I go teach at teacher conferences, many teachers don't know what Aaron's Law is. So there is still a bit of a disconnect with even the teachers getting the right information.

A (24:41)

Right.

B (24:41)

But when they do, you know, it's very easy to learn this curriculum. There are. It's a. There's a free curriculum now for anybody to download. So it's something that I think it's kind of like the. The missing piece. When we have parents and teachers working together with kids, it creates like a safety circle where, you know, there's just more protection for everybody.

A (25:02)

Yeah, that's great.

B (25:03)

I love that. And a lot of kids won't ever hear about body safety at home. So if they have, you know, body safety assembly or if they have somebody coming to read the I said no book, or if they're even doing a little mini lesson about well, who are your red flag? Who are your green flag? You know, who are your safe adults? Who are your red flag people? And, you know, just simple things like that, really, just little micro lessons over a period of time can completely reduce the risk.

A (25:30)

What else, what else can I ask that we haven't talked about?

B (25:34)

One thing that I am talking about at the NAEYC conference this fall, which is the national association for the Education of Young Children. I'm talking about how parents shouldn't post pictures of their children's faces online. But I'm also teaching that to the teachers because it is one of my biggest pet peeves about preschools and daycares. And, you know, we have people posting pictures of kids in the sprinkler in their bathing suits and hashtagging it with like, bathing suits and swimming party and preschool. And it's just, just a doorway for somebody to get control of your child's image. So at our school, we have everybody sign this form that says, you know, it's okay for them to use their photo on the social media and in the marketing and all of that. And it's. For me, it's. It's a no go. So I'm just like, don't sign the form. Yeah, like, it's not okay for us to use your child's image to market our school. And then I start to tell the teachers that I'm talking to about the risks and what can happen with, you know, just someone screenshotting your child's face and using, you know, the generative AI to create a CSAM video. And then next thing you know, your child's face and likeness and everything is out there. And then there's a disturbing, disgusting video being shared all over the place. Not just on the dark web, though. It's so interesting how this whole topic of child sexual abuse material is just out of control. That's just something. It keeps me up at night.

A (27:19)

Yeah. I mean, it's rampant. And I don't think people understand the harms that can be done just by simply. You think it's harmless to just share a photo with their face, but because of things like AI, the things that can be done with a simple face image is crazy.

B (27:42)

It really is. And that it just made me think of something else that I think is really important to talk about. I went and marched in New York City this year with the Heat initiative.

A (27:53)

Awesome.

B (27:53)

And we did this protest against Meta, and my friend Rosalia Rivera from Consent Parenting invited me to go with her. And I went and I met met 32 parents who had lost their kids to these child sextortion schemes. And, you know, I've heard about this stuff and I've read the cases, and it's. It's horrible and so sad. But when. When you go and you are with 32 people who are collectively mourning their children and it could have been prevented and there are people putting profits over live, it's just. It really made me so angry and. And just more passionate about really digging into this topic and, and being more out there and. And talking more about it. But I have never felt collective grief before. It was like. It just. I couldn't even breathe. It was so incredible. So very brave parents.

A (28:52)

Yes.

B (28:53)

An incredible organization.

A (28:55)

Yes. We love the HEAT Initiative very much. Yeah. It is scary to think that the people that we're up against in these sorts of situations are these big corporations like Snap Inc. And Meta, and they're all parents, too. And there's actually somewhat recently a video interview, I think it was. I wanna say it was Evan Spiegel's wife on a podcast saying that they don't let their kids use social media, but they let their kids use Snapchat.

B (29:33)

I saw that.

A (29:34)

And it's just like. And it coincided with this campaign that they ran that was like, less social media, more Snapchat, which is just nuts because it's a social media platform.

B (29:44)

Exactly.

A (29:44)

It doesn't matter which way you slice and dice it. That's what it is. But those are the people we're up against. And for them to know that they're sitting. One thing that I've seen a lot of and dug a lot into is like, we're very close to Sammy's Law. What we're trying to help pass, where, you know, you've got a courtroom filled with parents holding up photos of their lost children's faces in front of all of these executives. And they just are nothing. Emotionless. And it just seems. It makes it really hard to believe that people like that exist.

B (30:23)

It really does. And that they know that. They know that their algorithm feeds terrible behaviors and terrible content. And they know, and they've done studies that it's harmful to children and they hide it. They put it down. They, you know, fire people.

A (30:40)

Yeah.

B (30:40)

It's like. It's incredible.

A (30:41)

It's.

B (30:42)

It's. And then. But then we're on our phones and it's so like.

A (30:45)

Like, yes. Yeah. It's this constant, like, you know, I think parents, adults, caregivers, whoever it might be, just as much need to be conscious of their Phone use and their tech use. You know, as we're telling kids, like

B (30:59)

get off your phone. I know, it's so true. I was thinking about this last night because, you know, back when I had my first child, it was 1997, I mean we didn't, we had like remote phones, you know, the big one. But there was. And so all I did for the first three years of her life was like Google at her and you know, like take pictures with an old fashioned camera and read her books and teach her songs and go on walks and go on the jungle gym and all of these things that I did for like 24 hours a day. And now parents don't really do that as much anymore. I wonder if there's a study about like, you know, what does a zero to three year old's brain look like now versus then? Because I bet it's very different. And things that you learn between 0 and 8, even just like language development. Are parents talking to their kids as much as they were anymore? I doubt it. Yeah, I mean, so I tried to check myself too because even though I have adult children, you know, I'm working on my phone and posting things and my son Alex, who's 21, he said, mom, you know there's a app that will make you stop staying on your phone and you can limit it to three hours. And I'm like, oh, that's a really good idea. And he does that. He put that on his phone because he cannot focus on college and all of his assignments and his fraternity and his girlfriend and all these things. He can't focus when he's got it on all the time. It just doesn't happen.

A (32:27)

It is interesting now to see kind of this younger generation who they were really truly raised on the devices now being so much more mindful of their own use. You know, I feel like Gen Z and I guess what is it? Gen Alpha is what's after them sometimes get a lot of flack for being, you know, like, we don't know what they're saying half the time because of the slang, but they do. There is a large population of them who are very aware of their tech use. And I think some of us could probably stand to learn a thing, learn a thing or two from them.

B (33:00)

And I think one of the things that sort of kept my son Alex from being obsessed with the phone as a younger teen was that he was super athletic and was on baseball teams and travel ball and basketball. So he really had also no time y which I think we were letting, we're letting that go.

A (33:18)

Yep.

B (33:18)

And that's so important too, for, like, health and wellness and mental health.

A (33:22)

Yes. So definitely.

B (33:26)

What else?

A (33:27)

Is there anything else that we haven't yet discussed today that, you know, people absolutely need to hear?

B (33:32)

They absolutely need to hear that. And it's researched and proven that with just a little bit of prevention education, 95% of child sexual abuse can be prevented. So if you start talking early about it and you introduce it in a calm way, you can avoid the, you know, freaking your kids out moments that happen when you push it back and assume somebody else will do it. So you start talking about it, you introduce it gently, you use books, you have conversations. Maybe you take a class as a parent and learn about the risks and reduce them. And I can tell you for sure, predators are looking for targets that have children. Families that have cracks like that, they can get through a crack, you know, so, like, you've gotta. You've gotta firm up all those cracks. You've gotta talk about emotional awareness. You've gotta talk about feelings. You've gotta develop this open, honest relationship with your kids so that if, God forbid, they get into any situation, they are gonna say, oh, my God, I've gotta tell mom or dad or whoever, instead of like, oh, mom's gonna kill me.

A (34:43)

Right.

B (34:44)

That story. I sat down at that heat initiative. I sat down at a table with a family who had just lost their son, like, six months ago. And the dad said to me, and he was. I think he was like, Irish or Scottish or something, he had a great accent. And he said, if that little bugger would have just told me he showed his willy to somebody, I would laughed it off. And we could have fixed the problem. He didn't have to end it. You know, like. And that's kids. When we have these lifelong conversations, then kids are more apt to tell us when they have a problem. So I love that.

A (35:18)

That's great. Well, thank you again for joining us. And, you know, hopefully more. I said no books to be sold and read by parents and kids. And yeah, we're. We're very happy to have had you.

B (35:31)

I'm so happy to have. Have to have been able to come. And if people are looking for me.

A (35:35)

Yes, please.

B (35:37)

I'm on Instagram. Toughtopics, Mom. And then my website is Tough Topics mom dot com.

A (35:45)

Love it. We'll make sure to add it.

B (35:46)

Perfect.

A (35:47)

Thank you so much.

B (35:48)

Thank you.