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Parenting Understood
Ep. 147 - Post-Traumatic Parenting: Break the Cycle, Become the Parent You Always Wanted to Be
00:37:21
This episode of Parenting Understood features Dr. Robyn Koslowitz, author of the upcoming book "Post Traumatic Parenting". Dr. Koslowitz, an expert in child development and trauma, discusses the often-overlooked impact of past trauma on parenting....
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- [00:03]
Michelle Tangeman
We all have questions about parenting. Parenting Understood is answering questions using scientifically supported data to inform our parenting choices. Hi, I'm Michelle Tangeman, licensed marriage and family therapist and board certified behavior analyst and mom of two.
- [00:21]
Erin O'Connor
Hi, I'm Erin O'Connor, a developmental psychologist, professor at New York University and chief of education at Cooper and mom to two girls. Welcome back to another episode of Parenting Understood. Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by my friend and colleague, Dr. Robin Kosselwitz. Dr. Kosselwitz received her PhD in clinical child psychology from New York University in 2009. She has been working as a licensed school psychologist since 2002 and as a licensed clinical psychologist since 2017. Robin is educational director of the Targeted Parenting Institute. Targeted Parenting is a parenting system that uses empirically validated techniques to train parents and children to overcome various disorders of childhood in a preventative fashion in order to minimize or avoid later expensive psychotherapy. Targeted Parenting is available as a webinar, a teleconference, as well as in person classes. Thank you so much for joining us today, Robyn, and to talk about your new book and Parenting After Trauma. Welcome back to another episode of Parenting Understood. Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by my friend and colleague, Dr. Robin Kosselwitz to talk about her new book or upcoming book, and about how we as parents who have experienced trauma, can really sort of show up for our own children. So thank you so much for being here.
- [01:41]
Michelle Tangeman
Thanks so much for having me, Aaron. Like, you know, you've known the journey of this book from, like, the very beginning, and, you know, excited to talk to you about it.
- [01:50]
Erin O'Connor
I know it's kind of incredible how far back that beginning was. We're not that young anymore, but that's okay. So, you know, I think, first of all, something that I often, both for personal and professional reasons think about is, you know, how does trauma show up in parenting?
- [02:09]
Michelle Tangeman
So the interesting thing is that for a very long time, no one knew that trauma would show up in parenting. Like, there was no research. When I was a grad student at NYU and I was also someone with ptsd, I actually went to the stacks at Bobst Library and was researching this because, you know, that's what we do as PhDs, we research things. And there was nothing. There was literally not a single piece of research. This was before even, like Bessel van der Kolk had written the Body Keeps the Score. We're going back to the early 2000s, and I knew I had PTSD. I knew it would have to impact my parenting because, like, I had Flashbacks and panic attacks. Like, that can't be great for a toddler to witness, right? It can't be great when you're pregnant, when you have a panic attack, right? Like, that must not. That must do something. But there was no research. And I realized later on, like, throughout my graduate journey, like, I'm studying child development, but then I'm specializing clinically in treating trauma, and it kind of didn't make sense. And then I said, oh, what I'm doing is studying post traumatic parenting. What I want to know is what's typical normative child development and how does trauma impact it? Because nobody studied this, which is so.
- [03:20]
Erin O'Connor
Shocking in so many ways, right? That this had not been studied. Because as we know, it clearly impacts parenting. It impacts all the interactions we have, right? But especially parenting, which is such a triggering experience in many ways.
- [03:35]
Michelle Tangeman
And it's so embodied, right? Like, parenting is so. I don't think anybody prepares you for the sheer physicality of parenting. Like, first of all, just the physical, like labor, right? How many times you're bent out, right?
- [03:48]
Erin O'Connor
Totally.
- [03:49]
Michelle Tangeman
But also, like, labor doesn't stop when we give birth. Like, it starts, right? Like, you have to wake up 30 times in the middle of the night with a newborn, and you're carrying them up the steps and down the steps and you're changing the diaper and you're setting up the, you know, you're setting up the play area, making sure that they can't accidentally kill themselves because, like, you know, as toddlers, they're basically suicidal, right? And that's where you're like, it's just physical and physical and physical. And trauma is so physical, right? Panic attacks, flashbacks, these will happen within our bodies. Altered dissociation, like, right. Altered ability to have attention and be present in the moment. That is so physical to a certain extent. Your heart rate goes to a certain level, and then you dissociate. Really hard to be present with a toddler if you dissociate. And I think what tends to happen is if we experience trauma in our childhood or our adolescence or even our emerging adulthood, like before we have kids, we come up with these trauma coping tools to handle it. Maybe we become people pleasers. Maybe we dissociate. Maybe we become perfectionists. You know, we have a lot of options of things we can do, and they work really well. Like throughout your. Your childhood, your teens, your 20s, it works really well to people please and people please and people please. And then you never have to get to that level where you're flashbacking or panicking and then you have a baby and you need to be home at a certain time. And like, it's like, I can make my boss happy or my baby happy. I can't make them both happy now. What? Or I dissociate, but I want to be present with my kids, but my kids are stressing me out, so I need to dissociate because that's how I calm down. But I can't because I need to be present now. What? So, like, your trauma, it's any parent listening to this who feels like. Who's beating themselves up because their trauma coping tools are really what gets in the way of their parenting. You have to know that that's not a moral failing in you. That's not that you're doing something wrong. It's that you've trained yourself like, this is why, you know, we know about neuroplasticity, right? Like, neur that fire together, wire together. For so many years, you've trained yourself. I feel stress. I dissociate. I feel stress. I. People, please. I feel stress. You know, there's like a thousand things. I do things perfectly. I feel stress. I do everything at once but accomplish nothing, right? Like, I do all those things and now all of a sudden, it's not working. But you've been training yourself for 20 years to do things this way. It's your kids that make it fall apart, as they should.
- [06:13]
Erin O'Connor
Such a good point. I. I mean, I. I come at it more as like, the people pleaser, right? And that, that worked. Totally worked until children arrived and then it was like, oh, my gosh, I have to put them first.
- [06:27]
Michelle Tangeman
Right?
- [06:28]
Erin O'Connor
But it was stressful to not these people, right? And that made me stressed as a parent.
- [06:34]
Michelle Tangeman
Right? And then you come home and you're all stressed and you're like, wait, I'm not mad at my kid. Like, she had, you know, like, I don't know, I've had that where, like, my kid's school is notorious for this. They'll change the date. I think they think we're all like, you know, stay at home moms, which lovely, no shade on stay at home moms. And stay at home moms also have things like if you have a different kid's root canal, you know, they're constantly changing the dates of things. So, like, oh, yeah, the kindergartner's little play is gonna be Tuesday at 3:00. Ha ha. Psych. It's being on Monday at 1:00. You know, who am I mad at? You know, I'M not mad at my kid, right. I'll come home and sometimes I'll be stressed out. And maybe that stress is going to go towards that child. But like the kid didn't do anything wrong. The fact that I had a really important meeting in one of the schools that I consult in, they didn't do anything wrong. They scheduled that meeting six months ago. You know, who am I really mad at? But like, my stress would sometimes come out as anger and then I would really judge myself. Right. And that's not like mom rage that we talk about. But the truth is that, the truth is that honestly who I'm mad at in that situation is like, hey, don't reschedule. Like people have lives. Tell us when the play is. Cause I'm not gonna let my kid down. I wanna be there, but I'm gonna come and then not be present because I'm stressing out. Cause I left that meeting at that school early. Right. And then I feel like I have to make it up to them. Right. And it becomes so difficult. But when I acknowledge that this is my people pleasing tendency, like I am allowed to say that school. I'm sorry, something came up. I do have to leave early. We can reschedule or I can finish the meeting tonight at are your choices. And like the world won't explode. I won't die. Like nothing will happen. But if I'm carrying that stress, I can't be a present parent the way I'd like to be. No.
- [08:17]
Erin O'Connor
It's such a good point. And I, I feel it so myself as you're talking.
- [08:22]
Michelle Tangeman
Yeah.
- [08:22]
Erin O'Connor
Now when so sort of thinking about that, can you talk a little bit about the different sort of post traumatic parenting types? So I know in your book you're going to delve into this in more depth, but just a little bit about sort of what this can look like.
- [08:39]
Michelle Tangeman
Yeah. So Post Traumatic Parenting, the book really came out of like years of having a social media community around post traumatic parenting. And it was really funny because when I started the community, I was like, I almost had that feeling where I was like, this is going to be only me. Like I'm going to be talking into a mirror. I'm the only person. But as it turns out, you know, like, we have 29,000 members on Instagram. So like, there's at least a couple of other people who like have gone through this. And over the years, in all the post traumatic parenting groups that I've done, classes that I've done, I started seeing five distinct types that like and it just kept happening where you have. So you have people who are either disengaged where they're. So their stress response is so high that they just need to dissociate so that they don't allow their damage to damage their kids. It's almost like if I dissociate and space out, then I won't ever get to the level of stress where I lash out because that would be the worst thing ever. Then we have the paralyzed parent. And people think of paralysis as like someone's frozen and doing nothing. But actually, paralyzed parents are frenetically busy doing a thousand things but never finishing anything. So, like, they're cleaning up, but then they're also disciplining the toddler, but then they're also cooking and then the rice is burning and then the. The school is calling and they have to reschedule something. And like, they're just doing a thousand things because they don't know how to prioritize. And very often, people pleasers become that paralyzed parent because all priorities seem equally important at the moment. I think of like, Lucy in that, like, classic episode where she's doing a assembly line and like, the chocolates keep coming and then she's stuffing them into her bra and she's like, eating them because, like, she's moving and moving, right? That's the paralyzed parent. Then we have the perfectionist parent, where they're so focused on doing parenting perfectly that they can't be present. Like, they're the ones who are busy downloading every parenting script and they're trying to do everything exactly correctly, but they're forgetting that their kids don't want a script, their kids want them. And like, it's okay to mess up because it's not the rupture, it's the repair. So that's that. Like, that's the perfectionist parent. Then we have the entangled parent. And the entangled parent is someone who has entanglements from something in the past that's stopping them from the present. Like family of origin, entanglement, maybe an ex spouse, maybe a toxic boss, or even a friendship. Right where your head is not in the game because you're so busy thinking over that conversation you had with your ex or your family of origin. You see this especially, and I don't mean to stereotype, but like, I hear this a lot from people who are children of immigrants where perhaps they were the translator for their family. Like, they were the only English proficient person in their family, where they're still in that role even though Maybe there are younger siblings now who can still. Maybe their parents can speak English at this point, but they're still in that role of like, my dad has a doctor's appointment, so I need to cancel everything for my kid, even for my own kids, even for myself to get my dad there. And then they can't really be present with their own kids. I was an entangled parent to a large extent because I grew up with a very ill father. And then there's the. And then there's the survivor parent, which is somebody who's just in survival mode. Like something just happened. It's sort of like in psychotherapy we make a distinction between ptsd, post traumatic stress disorder, and acute stress disorder, which is like, as the stress is happening, like that moment after you just were in a car crash and you're still like, whoa, what just happened to me? And those parents are really just holding on with their toenails. It's like, great if they can get themselves and their kids fed and to bed. And like, not a lot of parenting is going on because, like, we're still reeling. Like our house just burned down. You know, even if that happened two years ago, but we're still in that survival mode. Those are the mostly the types I feel like in the book. What I left out was that sometimes perfectionist parents can be perfectionists by proxy, and they really insist on making sure their kids are perfect, you know, because that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
- [12:35]
Erin O'Connor
Hadn't thought about that. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I think that is a really interesting, interesting concept.
- [12:43]
Michelle Tangeman
Yeah. And I'm annoyed because it was in the book and then it fell out at some point. Cause it wasn't in the right chapter and then it never made its way back in because of space constraints and things like that. And I'm a little sad about it. Yeah. Sometimes you have a parent who is so anxious for their child because it's like, if my kid doesn't succeed, then all these bad things might happen. You know, we're one generation away from returning to poverty, so if my kid does not get into Harvard, then, you know, all bets are off. Right. Or my kid must. My kid must have a lot of enrichment experiences in their childhood. Or my kid must not have anger inside of them, because anger is really dangerous. And my family of origin, if you got angry, you got punished. So I need to train any sort of aggression or anger out of my kid to the extent where like. Yeah, but like, five year olds sometimes are exuberant and sometimes Mad. And that's okay. All feelings are welcome. You know, old behaviors aren't welcome, but old feelings are welcome. Your kids allowed to get mad. And it's because in my childhood this was super dangerous. I was recently talking to a post traumatic parent who is really reluctant to go home for like holiday visits. Like, like Thanksgiving, you know, because she becomes a completely different person at home. Like, she really believes in her children having body boundaries. And like, if you don't want to hug grandma or grandpa, you don't have to. You don't have to sit on Santa's lap if you don't want to. You don't have to, you know, you don't have to, you know, give that uncle a handshake if you don't want to. And then she go and her kid like won't give her dad a hug and she finds herself snapping at the kid, just hug Grandpa. Like, you know, she's like, I don't believe in this. But when we unpacked it, it was like her inner child was, we don't get grandpa mad, especially when there's alcohol around, especially at family gatherings. We just do what grandpa says, right? And like, she's like, so I'd rather just not go home. Which is also not a solution. Maybe it is temporarily, but like her kids are like, but we want to go. Our cousins are going to be there. It looks like fun, right? So it becomes really hard to unpack.
- [14:47]
Erin O'Connor
Really hard to unpack. And hard to do what you need to do for yourself, I think too sometimes, right? In those situations.
- [14:55]
Michelle Tangeman
Yeah. But then also to resource yourself and be like, no, no, no. Seven year old me is terrified of angering grandpa. But like, let me remind seven year old me that I am an adult now and if grand gets mad, I can vote with my feet. Like if gra. If, you know, if the alcohol starts flowing and grandpa gets like sharper and sharper tongued as the evening goes. Like, I know how to drive now. We can get in the car, we can be like, we're going to stay for two hours and then we're going to go. And that's what works for our family. Like, we were able to rehearse all of that and realize that she wasn't parenting in accordance with her values because her 7 year old, like, your inner child can't raise your children. But when your inner child knows that you're there, like adult you is there. Not only is that great for your kids, it's also great for your inner child because your inner child is like, oh, I'm the adult I would have needed.
- [15:44]
Erin O'Connor
Right, Good point.
- [15:46]
Michelle Tangeman
Right. And then we start to heal in a way that we never like. It's parenting that really lets us heal this stuff in a way that even therapy sometimes can't touch.
- [15:56]
Erin O'Connor
Right. So can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I think there's so much there about how parenting can help us heal.
- [16:04]
Michelle Tangeman
So I think, you know, for me, I had ptsd, and one of my big coping tools was dissociation. And I used to think that dissociation was like my superpower. It was great because I could like, do really stressful hard things and not feel stress, and it was great. And like, I remember the first time I had to present research at a conference. You know, a mentor of both of ours, Dr. Sandra McClaury. Right. And I had to, like, present. I don't remember if it was at a conference or if it was like at a Grand Rooms at nyu, but I remember, like, my, like, people in my cohort were really anxious about it. I was just like, totally fine. Later on, I crashed. But like, in the moment, I was like, okay, yeah, I can. I can do this. And that feeling of, like, I don't have to feel my stress could really be great, right? I. If I never had had kids, I really would have thought, like, I handled my ptsd. I have this. I have this licked. I know how to handle it. Like, I dissociate and then I undissociate. And this is great. And this works so well. It wasn't until I had kids that I was. I realized, like, when I dissociate, I'm not present at all. Like, there's no me there. And I'm not really having the richness of the experience. I'm also not training my nervous system. That public speaking is not scary. Like, I'm just training my nervous system to shut off a certain part of itself while I'm doing it. But I'm never learning to, like, feel the fear and then do it. I'm just not feeling the fear. I'm almost drugging myself without the use of any mind altering substances. My own mind is altering itself, which is great, until it's not great. And I never knew until I had kids. I never saw that that had a cost. I really thought I was better. I thought, this is fabulous. Like, I have my PTSD handled. And then I had kids. And then my son one time said to me, where do you go when you go away behind your eyes? I don't like that. He was about 10. And he started to cry. And I said, wow, okay, this is not. This is not a good thing. And I remember even, like, looking at him and thinking, it was like in the book I wrote, it was as if he said to me, you know, I'm only five feet tall. And it was if he said to me, you know, mom, you really should be 6ft tall, because then you could reach our, like, really high top cabinets, and then it would be so much more convenient, like, you should do that. And I. And, yeah, that's not gonna happen. I can't do that. I remember him. I remember thinking, like, you want me to feel my feelings? Like, during the day when other people are around? Like, I can't do that. Then I would yell, and then I would, like, you know, feel stressed all the time. Like, that would be terrible, right? And then I went into therapy, and I was like, oh, this dissociation is not a good thing. But if I wouldn't have had that conversation with my son, I don't know that I ever would have realized, wow.
- [18:45]
Erin O'Connor
That'S pretty powerful, like, having your children support you in your own sort of journey, right?
- [18:53]
Michelle Tangeman
Yeah. Yeah. It's very It. Our children, very. What we won't. I think this is where like, parental love really comes in, right? Because what we won't face for ourselves. Because, like, my trauma coping was good enough, you know, I was, okay, like, what we won't do for ourselves, we will do for our kids. Even something really uncomfortable and really painful and really hard. You know, I was good enough. So I was good enough, right? And staying surface was fine for me.
- [19:24]
Erin O'Connor
So, I mean, you touched on this right now, but how do we break these cycles that we can potentially get into around traumatic parenting?
- [19:35]
Michelle Tangeman
I think the first thing is to become conscious of them. And, like, when we parent in a way that's not consistent with our values, maybe for a second, instead of all that shame, that internalized shame and that internalized blame, if we stop for a second and we say, wait a minute, maybe this is not me. Maybe this is my trauma. Like, I was gonna handle this fine. And then I found myself yelling. And rather than beating myself up, like, how could I yell like that? I can't believe it. Like, my kid is so little. I don't believe in parents yelling at their kids or even spanking or anything like that. We do that. We're like, where'd that come from? Well, it came from somewhere, right? And that's that moment to start to become conscious of it. Like, oh, okay, there's something Here that isn't me. But like, you know, a parent will say like that's so not me to do that, but I did it.
- [20:27]
Erin O'Connor
Right.
- [20:28]
Michelle Tangeman
Okay, so then where did the not me come from? Probably a trauma. The first.
- [20:35]
Erin O'Connor
It's really. Yes. That realization. Then once you have that realization, you know, I still feel like when you're in the moment and you're stressed. Right. Often you like we all know this, you sort of go back to what you've, what you've experienced. How do you not go back there? How do you, you know, once you've reflected and you don't want to do it, but you have a trigger moment. What are some techniques?
- [21:00]
Michelle Tangeman
So I love like this is coming from like internal family systems therapy and acceptance and commitment therapy with a little flavor of inside out. What I love doing is sort of personifying my emotions and like as I start getting stressed, I start saying to my stress, like hello stress, you're here. You're coming to tell me that today is going to be really challenging and demanding and there's like a lot of stuff to get accomplished. Okay, thanks for that information. Thanks for that little extra adrenaline. And then like that feeling of like that yucky feeling in my stomach. Oh, hi adrenaline. You're here to give me strength. Unfortunately, it's not a physical challenge that I'm facing. Like I'm not going to be running a marathon. I'm going to be consulting with a school and then rushing to pick somebody up for an unexpected dentist appointment. So thanks for the energy. You can go now. And it either goes or it doesn't. But I'm not gonna give it that much attention as long as I agree that later on I'll check in with it. Cause sometimes it's an emotion like rage or sadness veer. It's like I can't like rage. I'm really enraged right now. It feels like I'm enraged at like my 8 year old. But like an 8 year old could not possibly provoke the level of rage I'm feeling. Right. Whatever the eight year old did, even if they did something really wrong, really dangerous, that's not it. Right. This rage is, it's disproportionate. I'm going to check in with you later. Thanks for the information. Because like anger identifies a problem. So you're here to tell me about a problem? Yeah. Hitting your little sister really hard is a problem. Thanks for that information. I don't need your input right now, but later on I will check in with you and maybe I have feelings about having Been bullied and maybe like, my brain is going, oh, my gosh, your kid's acting like a bully. This is dangerous. This needs to be resolved in the moment. All of that is for later. But simply acknowledging that the emotions there, like, and I really like just using those inside out characters simply because, like, it's already drawn for me. Like, hi, little angry red guy. You know, perfect, you're here. Thanks for the information. Can we make, like, here's an appointment card. I'll talk to you later. And then I have that moment to react. And I find that for me and my parenting, it's happening more and more often that I do get to be the adult in the room and that, like, I do have that moment even to say to the kid, I'm really furious right now, like, you know, one of my kids swung a, swung a baseball bat and narrowly missed their much younger sibling by mistake. They were being exuberant and like, but it was like a heavy baseball bat and like, to be able to say, I'm really furious. So I'm going to take a moment before I talk to you about this, right? Because in the moment it would be like, go to your room. That's it. You're off the baseball team forever and ever and you will never play another sport in your life. And like, you know, right? That's what I want, like, rage wanted me to say, right? Because there was like, fear and like, you know, and I had said, like, put your, put your equipment away. Put your equipment away. Make sure to put your bat away like four times before that. And I was being ignored, right? There was a lot that went into that silly little incident and it could have been really bad, right? And yet being able to say, I'm furious right now. So I'm going to take a moment and then we're going to talk about what just happened, right? That couldn't have happened years ago. I just would not have been able to do that.
- [24:13]
Erin O'Connor
So how did you get there?
- [24:16]
Michelle Tangeman
I think just years of therapy, first of all, and a lot of journaling like I have in the book. I have a lot of journaling practices that really help. And when I feel like the more we are okay with our unwanted emotions and the more we're like, you're coming to help me. You're just speaking too loudly right now. The more, you know, the, the less they have to scream because, like, oh, I do have her attention. And then I can like, unpack at night how I feel about physical violence. And that's like one whole sensation. And Feeling how I feel about being ignored. And that's like, another whole sensation, right? And, like, I can really, like, check in with myself and then the next day have a conversation with my son about, like, what have we learned from this story? Like, do you know how dangerous that could have been? Like, that was a metal bat. Do you know what could have happened? Right? And in a way that didn't feel like you could have murdered your brother. Like, you know, like, not in this overly dramatic way, but, like. And by then, because the incident had passed, my son's brain was very open to hearing. He's like, yeah, Mommy, I should have put my bat away right away. And if I wanted to show you. He was trying to, like, show off some cool trick he had seen an older kid do. Like, I should have done that outside. Like, I know, like, that's where bats belong. I'm. I'm never gonna do that again. Like, that could. Like, rather than me lecturing, he came up with it. That could have been really bad, and I'm sorry. And I'm not gonna do that again because I've learned. And it's not, like, from that forced apology. Like, you better say sorry. He's like, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have done that. That could have been really bad. From. Now I'm gonna put my bat. You know, we have, like, a little. A little bin outside on our front porch. Like, I'm gonna put my bat in the bin, and if I want to show you, I'll ask you to come outside. And I side. And, like. And then I was like, maybe we practice, like, bat tricks where, like, we're throwing the bat from hand to hand and doing something complicated with, like, a wooden bat and not a metal one always. Like, maybe that would be smarter.
- [26:11]
Erin O'Connor
It's tricky, though. I mean, like, so you said, you know, you reflect in the evening a little bit about sort of the day. How, you know, do you do that every night? Like, how. How. How much time do you spend doing that? Like, just to get yourself into this, like, very, like, centered state where you are able to recognize sort of what went on and how you want to handle it.
- [26:31]
Michelle Tangeman
So I seriously brain dump every night where I just voice note to myself, like, the random thoughts that are coming through. And then, of course, there's so many AI apps that just transcribe it. So then I have this nice little journal with my Brooklyn accent. So sometimes words are a little funny, but on the whole, it works out. And then every so often, I really discipline myself to do, like, A longer journaling, like an inner child meditation, or check in with a part of myself or things like that where, like, I try to do that like once a week on my own separate from therapy. Doesn't take that long. It's maybe like 10, 15 minutes. I've sort of folded it into, like the time when I'm like, preparing myself to do, to do my writing so that, like, it's sort of like getting myself into a certain mindset feels really freeing. And, you know, every time I sort of do have to discipline myself, like, am I really doing? Especially when it's like my own journal prompts that, like I wrote. It's like a little harder to make myself do them, but I do them. And sometimes I get some from other professionals or like, I'll buy like, guided, you know, guided journals and things like that. And sometimes I'll, I'll find one that really speaks to me. And one other thing I have to say about this is when I find one that doesn't speak to me, I try it once, and if it doesn't speak to me, I don't try to force it. It's like, I try, it's not going anywhere. I move on. Sometimes I'll try again a couple of weeks later and then it does work. But if it doesn't, I don't shame myself. I don't, like, I don't make it into like, oh, my gosh. But this should be, this exercise is from this person and it should be really good because if it's not hitting, it's not hitting. Move on. This is not, there's no, there's no perfectionism here. It's journaling. It's, you know, it's, it's, it's not a research presentation.
- [28:02]
Erin O'Connor
That's such a good point, though, for the perfectionists in some of us, right? This idea that it's not about being perfect, it's about getting your thoughts out there and reflecting upon your thoughts.
- [28:12]
Michelle Tangeman
Yeah, it really, really helps because, like, in the end, we are telling the story of ourselves to ourselves. And when we have more data, like, we become a more reliable narrator, right? So then our story sort of shifts. Like, I had this real perception of myself as a kid as this, like, lazy, spaced out person. And then whenever I succeeded, because I did succeed, like, like any PhD student, right? Like, I, I, I was performing at quite a high level, but, like, it was like, oh, this time I wasn't lazy. But once I knew, like, no, no, no, you're not lazy. You have PTSD and you're trying. You dissociate a lot because you're trying to manage flashbacks. It was like, oh, you're not lazy. You're a courageous person who like persists in the world despite having PTSD that no one even knew existed, you know, back then, right? So then the narrator looks at it a little differently. And when you start journaling, what happens is you might look at pieces of your story, like your whole life you knew that you were, you know, lazy or stupid or, you know, too angry or, you know, not as, you know, not as cute as the other girls. Whatever. It was like, whatever. The thing is, like when you were 8, that was like really holding you back. And then you're like, wait a minute. But when I was 8, all the other girls were free to learn social skills on the playground. The way. Because this is particularly gendered when it comes to like, the way. The way, you know, girls tend to like fight and like relational aggression, you know, and things like that. Everybody else was free to learn social skills and sort of learn that way of like being as mean as they want as long as they pretend to be nice and they're like figuring all that stuff out. I was busy having PTSD because I was worried about what I would find when I would get home. Of course, I never learned these skills. Right. And I don't necessarily mean to gender this because I think there are. This is certainly, you know, something that happens to kids throughout life. But I've found that a lot of post traumatic parents, when they're mothers, have this thing about I'm not feminine or nurturing enough to be a mom. And a lot of times that comes from somebody in your life telling you that. And like, you don't necessarily have to be feminine to be a mom. Right. Moms, moms come in all shapes, sizes, genders. Right? Like, like that, that doesn't even. Right. And that's okay, right? And like, but like you go back to it because even though you know that and you believe that and you're like, yeah, totally, there's still this little 8 year old is like, who's like, I'm not a nurturing person, so I'll be a really bad mom. And it's like, but, but, but 8 year old, what were you doing back then? Like, what was going on for you back then?
- [30:49]
Erin O'Connor
So powerful. I mean the, the just the value of being reflective and journaling and thinking about all this. Tell me more about where we can find. We pre order your book. I know folks are going to be really interested and Find more about your community online. Related to traumatic parenting. Post traumatic parenting.
- [31:11]
Michelle Tangeman
So yeah, we're like, we're all over right now. So the book is available for pre order pretty much wherever you get books, certainly on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, Goodreads, you know, you know, all the independent bookshops. It's coming out in July of 2025 and you can find me. I have a podcast, Post Traumatic parenting and a YouTube channel. Post traumatic Parenting, there's a theme and like on YouTube, I do these 20 minute videos where post traumatic parents will submit their questions. A lot of times they'll submit like a Reddit thread that they want the like sort of. Is there a TR component to this? Like we recently did a video that resonated with a lot of people about having a funeral for the you you were before you experienced your trauma. Like, especially for people who experience like molestation, incest, family, family abuse. Like you know, the trusting little six year old that never got to grow up because something happened when she was 7 and just having a funeral for that and the way our sadness and our anger work together and you know, so I'll post a video like that. This is how I would hold a funeral. Um, I'll post a video on. You know, recently there was a whole brouhaha about whether or not sticker charts are abusive. And like I posted a video on sort of like let's understand both sides of that debate on the podcast. It's like 40, 50 minute interviews with like various experts of who are experts in either trauma or parenting or both, or who have something specific on a topic area like bullying or you know, toddlers, things like that. And then on Instagram you can find me at Dr. Kostelet Psychology. And that's really where the post traumatic parent community hangs it out. We have like a subscription and there's lots of ways I respond to pretty much every comment and DM that comes in. Although that started to be a big project, I was gonna say that's impressive. Yeah. You know, I feel like any post traumatic parent who felt the way I did when they became a parent and was like, will my damage damage my kids? What do I do about it? I feel like if you have the courage to reach out, like I should respond because I see so know what that feels like and I so know what it feels like to be like, no, no, no, I know I shouldn't dissociate, but how can I parent without it? Or I know I shouldn't. People, please. Or I know I shouldn't get so mad all the time. But, like, anger was protective to me my whole life. I can't just let go of it. I so know what that's like. And I never want another parent to feel alone with that totally.
- [33:34]
Erin O'Connor
And also, do you feel like, you know, at some point when you're thinking about sort of when you're a young girl, let's say, and you're still, you know, using these coping strategies and you haven't had a family yet, that it puts a stress on having a family because you're so focused on it either does or doesn't.
- [33:57]
Michelle Tangeman
We have a significant amount of parents in the post traumatic parenting community who are parenting inner children, not real world children. Many of them say that this is the first time they've contemplated becoming a parent. Like, they've always thought about becoming a parent, but then it was like, no, no, no, I don't want to perpetuate the cycle. But when they realized, wait a minute, maybe there's a way to do this and not perpetuate the cycle, then they very much are suddenly like, I, I think I'm getting ready to actually have kids, which is something I always thought I wouldn't do. And then I have that other side of people who just want to have children who have a perfect childhood so that they can fix their own without remembering that your kids aren't you, right? Your kids have you. Your kids, your inner child can inform your parenting, but your kids are also going to go through ups and downs and bumps and bruises. You can't shield them from all harm because those parents are so afraid that if their kid feels any harm at all, then they're going to be traumatized the way they were but not realizing. But wait, your kid has you. They'll get through this. You know, like panicking if their kid doesn't, like, make the soccer team or if their kid has to have remedial reading help because, like, oh my gosh, what if they, you know, and it's like, okay, you'll handle it. Your kid has her life trajectory. It's going to be okay. You'll be there, you'll help, but you can't. I always say the parent's not the writer of the child's life. They're the editor, right? So if your kid comes home, right, Your kid comes home and they're like, oh, I tried six times to, you know, to sink that shot, and every time I didn't make it. I want to focus their attention on, I tried six times, right? I can do that. Can I Make that shot. I mean, I've like, I've been on the sidelines where I've been like, ball, go in, get through that hoop. Like, every bit of my willpower is getting that ball to where my kid wants it to go. But if my kid misses the basket, that's also okay, right? That's how we learn and that's how we grow.
- [35:54]
Erin O'Connor
Robin, this has been so delightful, always delightful to talk to you and just hear your wonderful expertise on this topic as well as others. So thank you.
- [36:06]
Michelle Tangeman
Thanks so much for having me. Erin, you know, like, you knew this journey from like that very beginning, I think when you were like a brand new professor at NYU and I was like a finishing up graduate student. You know, like you saw the origins of this and it's really meaningful to be talking to you about it.
- [36:23]
Erin O'Connor
Oh, well, thank you. It's very meaningful to me too. I'm just so happy like that this is coming out that people are going to be able to benefit so much from reading your book and sort of thinking about their own trajectories.
- [36:38]
Michelle Tangeman
Yeah, it's weird. It's like sending a kid out into the world. I feel like it was the world's longest pregnancy, but it's really strange to think of people actually reading the book. But I really hope that post traumatic parents will benefit because if even one post traumatic parent reads this and is like, oh, that's me, I get it now, this whole project will have been worth it.
- [36:59]
Erin O'Connor
Totally.
- [37:01]
Michelle Tangeman
Well, thank you again. Thank you for listening to Parenting.
- [37:07]
Erin O'Connor
Understood. Please follow rate and leave a review.
- [37:10]
Michelle Tangeman
On Apple or Spotify.