Part Of The Problem

Guest: Daryl Cooper
Host: Dave Smith
Date: October 24, 2025

Episode Overview

In this in-depth episode, Dave Smith welcomes renowned historian and podcaster Daryl Cooper for a wide-ranging conversation. The two discuss Cooper’s celebrated approach to history, particularly as it relates to the First World War and his highly-anticipated new series "Enemy: The Germans' War." They explore how narrative and empathy can transform our understanding of massive historical tragedies, directly address controversies around World War II discourse, and candidly examine the complex interplay between historical trauma, collective memory, and modern discourse—particularly around issues like the Holocaust, anti-Semitism, and the endurance of humanizing even history’s villains.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Power and Purpose of Storytelling in History

• Daryl Cooper’s podcasting approach:

  • Cooper is celebrated for making dense and emotionally overwhelming history feel immediate and human.
  • He strives to present historical events not as dry lectures but as vivid, emotionally rich narratives that draw listeners into the lives of the people involved.
    • (06:40) Cooper: “People are usually smarter than they think. You know, it’s just a matter of being engaged... I try to tell a good story to make people want to know more... And I think that’s the way you have to be able to present it.”

• Impact on listeners:

  • Listeners who never considered themselves “history types” have become deeply engaged, buying books and rethinking their own capacity for understanding complex history.

• The “white pill” of in-depth, popular history:

  • The podcast’s overwhelming success—number one in history charts, nearly 200,000 Substack subscribers—shows a public hunger for challenging, detailed, nuanced content.

Bringing History to Life: The Realities of War

• Trench warfare in World War I:

  • The hosts reflect on the severity and scale of human suffering, emphasizing the generational trauma that resulted from the Great War.
    • (15:44) Cooper: “If you were able bodied and you weren’t working in a munitions factory... your ass was going to war... This was something that was just shared by all these regular people... This was how they spent their young adulthood.”
  • Differences between modern and historical militaries: Modern American military service is a limited, “cast”-like experience, whereas WWI was a total social trauma.

• Describing the horror and futility:

  • Dave Smith underscores the need to focus on individual experience—“a seven-year-old boy walking through rubble”—to drive home the real stakes.
  • Cooper notes the uniquely hopeless nature of the Western Front:
    • “You’re just this piece of meat sitting out there in the cold... and you just might die randomly... it was just total madness.” (19:10)
  • Both discuss how this collective trauma laid the groundwork for the even greater horrors and radical movements of the 20th century.

The Consequences: Aftermath and Social Upheaval

• Postwar chaos—Europe after WWI:
  • Massive social and governmental breakdowns from Germany to Russia, with civil wars, revolutions, and starvation (25:31).
  • The violence didn’t stop in 1918; for many, the disorder intensified, teaching a dangerous lesson that "anything could be accomplished by force."
  • The failure to treat WWI as “the war to end all wars” and instead planting the seeds for global conflict anew.

Controversy Around World War II: Narrative Policing & Dog Whistles

• Cultural radioactive taboos:
  • World War II remains deeply "radioactive" to discuss outside mainstream narratives, particularly regarding the Holocaust and questions of revisionism.
  • Dave Smith notes how even raising questions or suggesting Churchill may have made grave errors quickly gets interpreted as an endorsement of Hitler or Nazism.
    • (28:18) Smith: “As soon as you just mention that, people just finish the sentence for you... That’s just how these debates go.”
• The “Funhouse Mirror” of Public Debate:
  • Critics often attack Cooper for what they think he implies, not what he actually says.
    • (33:44) Cooper: “The bottom line is that everybody involved in these absolutely insane, extraordinary circumstances, we’re just human beings. You know, they’re not different than you...”
  • Hosts lament that few critics engage with the actual content—instead, they extrapolate from tweets or sound bites.

Paranoia, Collective Memory, and Humanization

• Discussing Jewish historical paranoia and its roots:

  • Cooper draws an analogy to Armenian collective trauma—arising from very real, very recent history—explaining that it’s a natural coping mechanism but one that has costs.
    • (47:57) Cooper: “It’s a paranoia that was well earned, right? It didn’t come out of nowhere... Throughout history, very often well-earned paranoia.”
  • Describes how trauma gets transmitted (Roseanne Barr’s childhood Holocaust fears), becoming part of a community’s self-concept.
  • Warns against leaders amplifying paranoia for political or social reasons, urging “cooling of heads” and moving away from defining identity through perpetual victimization or conflict.

• Humanizing the “villains” of history:

  • Cooper’s podcast strives to humanize even those responsible for or complicit in historical horrors, believing it’s vital to understand the full scope of the human condition.
    • (57:53) Cooper: “If you can humanize these people, you can do it to anybody. And so, you know, let’s push the boundary out to here—of, I consider even these people human beings.”

Forgiveness, Empathy, and the Challenge of Perspective

• Empathy as a radical act:
  • Smith and Cooper argue that empathy—even for enemies—is seen as controversial, but it’s the only way to break cycles of paranoia and hatred.
  • Cooper connects this to the Christian call to “love your enemy,” acknowledging its almost impossible difficulty but claiming it’s transformative and necessary.
    • (61:31) Cooper: “You can search through religious texts... but you’re not going to find anywhere else this insane idea, this insane demand that you should love your enemy and pray for those who curse you... If you can get past that hurdle... it will transform you in a way that is ultimately for your better and everybody around you.”
  • Smith echoes the importance of Ron Paul’s “blowback” arguments and the need to consider the humanity and motivations of those on all sides of violent conflict.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On bringing history to life:

  • Cooper: “I try to tell them the story of a historical event in a way that makes them want to go listen to a history professor, makes them want to go buy their book and read that book.” (06:40)

• On WWI’s generational trauma:

  • Cooper: “These are human beings having natural human reactions, usually under the circumstances... whether Jim Jones or the Germans or Zionists and Palestinians, whatever.” (47:57)

• On public controversy & resilience:

  • Cooper: “As long as you got real tight relationships with your group of friends and family and community, people in your community—it’s all just noise, honestly, like even being denounced by the White House... It’s all just noise.” (33:44)

• On empathy’s power:

  • Cooper: “Forgiveness is not something that you do for the other person... You do it for yourself... to take that weight of hatred or anger or whatever off of your own shoulders.” (61:31)

• On the appeal of his podcast:

  • Smith: “The demand that we have empathy for all sides and we insist on putting ourselves in their shoes... It really says something about the sickness of our society that that’s viewed as such a controversial... thing to say.” (64:27)

Important Timestamps

• 03:42 – Daryl Cooper on the anxiety and catharsis of releasing ambitious series
• 06:40 – Cooper explains his storytelling approach and audience impact
• 15:44 – Detailed exploration of trench warfare and its psychological toll
• 22:33 – How trauma from WWI shaped attitudes and violence into WWII
• 25:31 – The overlooked chaos and civil war in post-WWI Europe
• 33:44 – The cost of controversy, and the importance of real connections
• 42:44 – How accusations and “dogwhistle” policing poison discourse
• 47:57 – Paranoia in Jewish/Armenian communities; trauma, memory, and leadership
• 57:53 – On humanizing even the most hated in history
• 61:31 – The transformative power and challenge of loving your enemy
• 66:19 – Daryl Cooper shares where to find his work, and access for those without means

Resources & Plugs

• Daryl Cooper’s podcast & writing:
  • martyrmade.substack.com
    • Extensive archive, bonus episodes, essays, and more (including financial accommodation for anyone who needs it).
  • History podcast “MartyrMade” — available widely on streaming platforms.
  • “Provoked” – Live show with Scott Horton, Fridays at 8pm ET / 5pm PT.

Tone

The conversation is candid, at times somber, deeply empathetic, and intellectually rigorous—with flashes of acerbic humor. Both host and guest are passionate about critical thinking, skeptical of easy answers, and insist on humanizing even those history casts as monsters or villains. The tone is one of searching, curiosity, and above all, an insistence on truth and perspective over tribalism or simplification.