Dave Smith (7:21)

Yeah, well, so it's like, I really think that, you know, the, the point that I've tried to make about this, like, more recently, you know, like, but when you mentioned, you know, me talking about this on Joe Rogan's podcast a few years ago, I mean, the point I was making at the time was like, we should stop doing this. Like, it was still going on. And I was like, we should stop doing this. This is horrible. I mean, it's just like, you know, horrifically emot. Immoral to bring this type of destruction on the poorest country in the Middle east for no strategic reason other than what Obama officials stated that it was like, oh, this helps our relationship with the Saudis or something like that, which is, you know, insane. But I think today when we bring it up, it's. It's more important to understand the point that you were making in there, that this is not going to defeat the Houthis. I mean, I'm sure you're, you're kind of like me in this, that when, you know, when you first saw the Houthis enter this fight, when they made it clear that they were going to stick up for the Palestinians, there is part of you that's like, oh, God, no. Because Jesus, like, the people of Yemen have just been through so much, and, you know, one way or the other, whether it's justified or not, this is going to bring even more, you know, destruction toward Yemen. But the point is that if they made it through the seven or eight years of a Saudi invasion, a total blockade, these massive bombing campaigns, they made it through. I mean, you know, it was what was considered by the UN and many other humanitarian organizations to be the worst humanitarian crisis in the world through all of those years. And that didn't unseat the Houthis then. It's just a joke to think that, that launching a few Tomahawks is going to, like, get them to wave the white flag. And so you have on one. Clearly there is not a military solution short of another war in Iraq. Like, I mean, I, I think certainly if the US Wanted to invade Yemen, we could overthrow the Houthis, as we learned from all these terror wars. We'd probably have other problems to deal with, insurgencies and, and whatnot. But yeah, I mean, if we want to go spend another $3 trillion and lose another, you know, few thousand U.S. soldiers and, and maybe have 10 or 20,000 more commit suicide in the aftermath, okay, we could do that. That's one option. The other option would be the ceasefire that. I mean, you just can't overstate this. That Trump's envoy negotiated or at least got done. I guess it was basically the same ceasefire that had been kicked around for quite a bit. But it just seems so obvious, like, not that it's like, oh, look, why, if it was any other country, and Trump's envoy, Wyckoff here, was able to work out this cease fire, and then one country started violating it, and it causes more problems for us that they're not living up to. It just be so obvious what the answer is here. It's only because it's Israel that this is even the. The conversation goes to like, well, then I guess we got to fight this war for them.

Dave DeCamp (10:29)

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, as you mentioned, you know, the Trump administration, they took this as a big victory in the first few weeks that they got the ceasefire. Right Now Israel has completely abrogated that deal. And, you know, we see this daily slaughter happening every day, and they're literally starving children now. I mean, there's no debating that they're not using starvation as a weapon of war now, that they haven't let any food in in almost two months. And what we've seen in Yemen. So he mentioned during the Saudi war, the Houthis survived that. They didn't just survive it, they actually got better at fighting. And the thing that really made the Saudis in the UAE sue for peace was the fact that Hoot Houthi missile and drones started hitting oil fields and oil infrastructure deep inside Saudi Arabia and in the uae. They hit some targets there as well. And we're seeing a familiar pattern here in the US Bombing campaign. Just in recent weeks, the Houthis have shot down seven US MQ9 Reaper drones, which are these big drones. They're used for surveillance that can be used to launch airstrikes. And they've downed a total of 21 of these drones since October 2023, but seven just in recent weeks. And US officials have been sent, you know, telling the media that they're actually getting better at targeting them. And the US also just lost an F18 overboard off an aircraft carrier that apparently the aircraft carrier, the Harry Truman had to make a hard turn to avoid a Houthi attack. So, you know, US Warships have incredibly advanced air defense systems, but it almost seems like, you know, it's. It's only a matter of time before a Houthi drone makes it through, and then we might see some American casualties and then. And then what happens? So it seems like in response to this, to these airstrikes not working, they're just ramping them up. The US Military or the Pentagon put out this press release on the first 100 days of the Trump administration. And somehow they were bragging about bombing Yemen. They said that they struck more than 1,000 targets in Yemen in just again, like a month and a half, a little less than that. And they've killed hundreds of civilians. These have been some of the most brutal airstrikes we've seen in Yemen. On April 17, the US bombed a fuel port in Hodeida, the Red Sea province, and killed, according to the Yemen Data Project, which tracks this stuff, killed 80 civilians. And this is mostly port workers. I mean, this is a massacre on a huge scale, and barely anyone has noticed in the US at least. Obviously, people in Yemen are very aware. And there's also just the other day, on Monday, they bombed a migrant detention facility in northern Yemen and killed 68 people. And it looks like they're all African migrants. And the real, you know, what reason. Why would the US Bomb this facility? I don't think the US Would intentionally slaughter a bunch of African migrants. But how bad is their intelligence that they would bomb this? The really kind of egregious thing about it is that the Saudis bombed the same place three years ago in January 2022, right before the ceasefire between the Houthis and the Saudis. As I understand it, it was a different building, but it's like the same facility. And The Saudis killed 91 civilians in that strike, 91 African migrants. Three years later, the US bombs the same place, and they claim, oh, we're having incredible success. We're killing all these Houthi fighters and. And taking care of their air defenses and everything. But, I mean, it's just they have no way of knowing that. They don't really have. They don't have people on the ground. I saw at one point a statement from the CENTCOM spokesman said something like, oh, we've killed hundreds of their militants, you know, based on open source reporting. Well, open source reporting means it's just what you could find on the Internet. I mean, it goes to show they just don't know what they're bombing. And their solution is just bomb. Just bomb away. So, yeah, it's really criminal what's happening here. It's completely unauthorized. This is an important point here because you see people justifying it, saying, oh, the War Powers act lets the President, you know, engage in military action for two months if there's an imminent, you know, under an emergency, if there's an imminent threat. Well, that signal chat showed us that there was no imminent threat. They were saying, you know, J.D. vance said, hey, maybe we should put these plans on the shelf for about a month, work on the messaging. And Pete Hegseth, who was, you know, wanted to do it right away, even said that if, you know, you wanted a pause, we could pause it. And, you know, and he was the one arguing in favor of doing it. So that shows there was no imminent threat. So it's completely illegal, it's immoral, it's failing, and it's only being done to ensure Israel can keep killing Palestinians in Gaza. So this is really just, I think, one of the worst things happening right now under this new Trump administration.

Dave Smith (15:04)

Sorry, I don't, I don't mean to smirk as you say that, but there was something and that, that just seemed like almost what should be the tagline for US Foreign policy. It describes all of it. It's illegal, it's immoral, it's not working, and it's only being done for Israel. That seems to kind of describe every military action that I can remember over the last 25 years. And, you know, it's wildly frustrating that really, I mean, the only reason anyone's even talking about this on a. When I say anyone, obviously there are the, there are people who care about this, but broadly speaking, amongst the American, you know, conversation is because of this Signal Gate thing. And like, still, it seems like the story there, the scandal is just that this Atlantic hack journalist happened to be added to the Signal chat. And I've been saying from the beginning that. Exactly your point. The real scandal here was that portion of the, the chat where JD Vance offers the most impotent pushback. But I guess I should give him credit for being the only one who seemed to offer any pushback, where he does kind of say, he does say, I think we're making a mistake. I think this is everything against what we ran on. But then goes, I mean, hey, I'll be, I'm totally on board if you guys want to do it. But then he. Right, you said hag Seth in response to him, goes, I get your point. You know, I get what you're saying. And look, this isn't time sensitive. We don't have to do this right now. And so in other words, right, they. The, look, the War Powers act, and I'm, I think it was, I think Rothbard had a piece on this where it was like, look, the war's power War Powers act was horrible because the, it basically just gave the president the authority for two months or 90 days or whatever. It Gives you to, to start a war, you know, and like that it was already in the Constitution that you need the Congress, so we shouldn't have even added that. But even within the War Powers act, it's like, yes, the threat has to be imminent. And so, no you don't. If you have the option to seek congressional approval, you don't have the right to just launch military operations. But like, it's crazy that that never even comes up as a thought. Nobody even thinks to themselves, oh, well, if we don't have to do this right away, then we have to go to Congress and get approval for this. Just not even, not even a thought anymore.

Dave DeCamp (17:30)

Yeah, and I think that's a big risk here when, you know, we talk about the, the potential for war with Iran. Like, it's not like they're going to have to do this big media thing like they did with Iraq and this build up to like, get the public on board, they could just bomb Iran. I mean, like, that's just the way that the executive branch operates now. So. Yeah, I mean, this is something when it comes to Yemen that I, I think, you know, we've seen some, like, very mild pushback from some members of the Senate. I know Rand Paul joined a letter questioning the authorization and there was another letter from like three Senate Democrats about the civilian casualties, but they didn't even say, like, challenge the fact that the US Was bombing Yemen. They're basically just saying you should try to limit civilian casualties. So yeah, I mean, the sad truth is, is that if they did go to Congress, they would get the approval. But still, it is still illegal what, what they're doing right now in Yemen. And the next possible escalation is backing a ground offensive against the Houthis, which would essentially be restarting the war that the Saudis failed at. You know, there's these factions on the ground saying that they have like 80,000 fighters or something, but I don't even think that would be enough because if you've seen what's happening in Yemen, you know, the Houthi leaders been calling for these rallies and I mean, these pictures from the capital, like hundred, it looks like hundreds of thousands of people come out and a lot of them have AK47s. Like they're, this is again, you know, really emboldening the Houthis and, and making them this kind of resistance faction that they, that they really want to be. So if we continue down this path of escalation, I mean, it's just going to be just such a disaster. And, but Again, it just doesn't seem like anybody's learning this lesson in the administration. Even though one of the best arguments against bombing Yemen, when Biden started doing it, doing it, was written by Mike Dimino, who right now is the head of Middle east policy in the Pentagon. So unfortunately, it looks like, you know, his views are not winning the day. Even though right now we still haven't had a strike on Iran, I think that risk is. Is pretty high. And, you know, it's just a shame that a guy like the Mino doesn't seem to be steering the policy well.

Dave Smith (19:38)

Or how about a guy like Donald Trump? I mean, Donald Trump said, I. I'm sure you've seen the clip, but when Tim Pool had him on, he did get this amazing sound bite out of Donald Trump. And it was right. It was right after Joe Biden had just bombed Yemen for the same reason. And Donald Trump went off on how stupid this was and how, oh, this is. All these guys ever want to do is drop a bomb on someone rather than pick up the phone call and pursue diplomacy and this whole lecture. And, man, like, we could use a guy like that to be president right now because it just seems, like, so obvious. But, you know, look, it just seems to me, and I know that sometimes, you know, it's funny because sometimes the. Speaking of Tim Pool, like, the Tim Pools of the world will say they're, you know, there's like, you know, there's the. Of the Trump kind of broad coalition, right? There's like, the people who are, like, total Zionists want to support Israel. There's the people who are, you know, huge critics of Israel, and then there's kind of the people in the Middle or whatever. And people like Tim Pool will say, like, oh, why are you guys so obsessed with Israel? Like, why are you just always talking about the Israeli Palestinian conflict? I mean, you know, what are you talking about? What's going on in Sub Saharan Africa right now or in Southeast Asia or. And where, you know, like, why do you care so much about this conflict? But it's like, you know, aside from it just being, like, something horrific is being done with my tax dollars, it's really this. It's like, this is really what it's about. It's like, now, because we support Israel, we have to now be drawn into yet another war in the Middle east with an even larger war looming behind it, which it seems like there's this huge effort to get us into. Like, this is the. This is the whole issue. It's not just like, it's not just like Israel can do this to the Palestinians with American money and that's it. It's like, oh, this also requires us constantly being at war with other Arab states or other Muslim states as a result of it. And this is what we're opposing here. Hey, guys, as I always say, if you want to change the world, start with your own behaviors. And here's an easy one. Stop drinking garbage coffee from those giant corporations and switch to blackout coffee. Blackout coffee is roasted right here in the United States of America by people who believe in liberty just like you. They do all the roasting, packing and shipping in house. There's no middleman. There's a reason they have over 25,000 five star reviews because the coffee is excellent. I've tried their coffee. I love it. And I'm a bit of a coffee snob, so take my word for it, this is quality coffee. You're going to love it, too. So right now, go to blackout coffee.com problem and use the promo code problem and you're going to get 20% off your order. Again, that's blackout coffee.com/proble, promo code problem for 20% off your first order. Support your values, support freedom and get some coffee that doesn't suck. Blackout coffee.com problem, promo code problem for 20% off your first order. All right, let's get back into the show.

Dave DeCamp (22:59)

Yeah. And when Biden was in, in 2023, when this all, you know, popped off, the US bases in Iraq and Syria came under like constant, like rocket and drone attack because the US Was supporting what Israel's doing in Gaza. And it culminated in three US army soldiers being killed in a drone attack. So, you know, this is very much the reason for why the US Keeps these bases in Iraq and Syria. I mean, there's been all these reports recently about the Trump administration. You know, they're drawing down troops in Syria. Initial reports said they might pull out, but who was arguing against it? It was Israel. Israel wants the US to stay. Now they're, now it's under the pretext of keeping Turkey out of certain areas. You know, after they got rid of Assad, Iran's ally. Now they're saying that the new government, you know, they're justifying invading southern Syria and occupying it and bombing it. So, yeah, I mean, this is the key kind of to everything, especially today. Like again with Yemen, this is just so obvious. It's more in your face with this situation in Yemen. I remember there was a report from Ynet Israeli media because so after the US started bombing Yemen on March 15th. And they also preempted Israel breaking that completely breaking the ceasefire. It was March 15 that the US first launched the airstrikes on Yemen, and it was March 18 that Israel completely ended the ceasefire and killed like 400. And I think it was like 470 Palestinians in the first 24 hours, including, like, a lot of kids, like nearly 200 children. And so you look at the timeline, and after that, March 18, when they started bombing Gaza again, then the Houthis started firing missiles at Israel, again, kind of separate from them declaring a blockade. Now they're shooting missiles and drones at Israel. And there's a report on YNET that said the US Told Israel, don't worry about these attacks. You know, you guys don't need to respond. We'll take care of it. Because Israel did bomb Yemen, I believe, two or three times last year in response to these attacks. But so it is just blatantly in your face about this bombing campaign in Yemen is about Israel. Of course, there's other factors, including just the profit, the military industrial complex. That's always a factor. But this is very. Just so clearly about just ensuring Israel can continue to do whatever it wants. And it's really shameful. I mean, again, I mentioned the blockade. Like, Trump has the ability to get on the phone and say, let the aid into Gaza or I'm going to cut you off. And every day doesn't do that. I mean, it's just. It's just really shameful.

Dave Smith (25:30)

Yeah. And it seems like at least in, you know, when we'll see how that develops. But at least like in Ukraine, Trump is certainly willing to say, like, hey, look, if you want our support and you're relying on us, then okay, but we have some expectations, we have some boundaries and conditions that come along with that. And yet it just does. It almost never seems to be the case with the US Relationship with Israel. And, you know, to your point, this is something I've kind of been hitting on a lot lately, but I find this to be an interesting dynamic. But, like, okay, if you know, like, what I know now, what you probably, you know better than I know. But, like, if you know about the war in Iraq and you really know, you know, like, okay, you could go read through, like, the Project for a New American Century, or you can read the Clean Break Memo, or you can read Netanyahu's old writings or whatever, and you could see that, like, okay, the Likudniks in Israel and the neoconservatives, their counterpart in The United States of America. They wanted to overthrow Saddam Hussein since at least the 90s, okay. And they were very upset that they didn't overthrow him in the first Gulf War and they wanted to have plans to overthrow him all throughout the 90s and well before 9 11. However, that was not first off, there weren't podcasts and there wasn't social media and there were, you know, whatever, there were newsletters and stuff like that. But this was not something that was widely, it probably was widely known within connected people in D.C. but it wasn't widely known by the American people. And the propaganda, at least for going into Iraq was. No, it had nothing to do with that. This has nothing to do with Israel. This was about 9 11. This was about nuclear weapons and the fact that Saddam Hussein was in on 911 and now he has nukes so he's friends with these terrorists. They could end up getting a nuke and nuking the United States of America. So there was at least, you know, there was some good old fashioned propaganda there where Joe Six Pack in America could very reasonably seeing what was said on the tv, say to his friend, well we got to go see about these nuclear weapons. I mean we can't let that, you know, we can't let that go. But there just simply is no propaganda like this with the Houthis. Nobody is even attempting to make the argument that some, aside from the fact that they could, could be a problem for some of our ships where as I can't Remember, was it J.D. vance or Pete Hagsett or I think both of them acknowledged on the signal chat like a very small percentage of our trade even depends on any of this. But like that's the best they got. They got. It's just so obvious that this is about the conflict in Gaza. However you feel about it, that's what's going on here. And you do wonder like it. Again, it seems to me like, I guess two thoughts. Number one, it just seems like everything else, it seems so short sighted by even the pro Israel factions. And then, you know, just because I, I have, you know, been getting a lot of this heat thrown my way lately, it kind of seems like almost like I, I've gotten to the point in debating about Israel that nobody is even, nobody anymore is even saying like, oh you got to go debate this guy or something like that. Like I was getting a lot of. Douglas Murray was the one who everyone always used to throw at me. They used to go, you should debate those murder, he'll destroy you on this. And now they're like, okay, people said Josh Hammer was going to destroy me, Dennis Prager was. But now it's, no one's even trying to debate that anymore. They're just basically saying that I am responsible for all of the Jew hatred online or something like that. And, but I just go for all these people who like Jew hatred on Twitter is their biggest concern. Like, well, what do you think? What do you think getting into another catastrophic war in the Middle east on behalf of Israel is going to make this country look like? What do you think the response to that is going to be? It almost to me seems like a call to their bluff. Like, you must not actually be that concerned about this because otherwise this is the last thing you would want to do.

Dave DeCamp (29:36)

Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, people, they don't seem to really want to engage with that point. And this when it comes to Yemen, because again, it's more in your face. Like, it's just this isn't even part of the discussion. I mean, when do people say, oh, debate me on whether or not we should be bombing Yemen or something like that? And of course, the talking point when it comes to Yemen is that they're, you know, the Houthis are backed by Iran. If you read any mainstream coverage of it, they call them the Iran backed Houthi rebels. They're the rebels even though they've controlled Sanaa now for over 10 years. And an important point because, people, you could look at a map and you'll see the Houthi controlled areas in the, in the west and the rest is, is not controlled by them. But that's where 80% of Yemenis live. That's where most of the population lives. So it's an important point. And Yemen used to be north and South Yemen. It's basically North Yemen that they control the former country. But anyway, so the, the narrative is that they're Iran backed and they certainly receive support from Iran. What level we don't really know. Essentially how I understand it is that Iran probably helped them develop their missile and drone program, giving them these like missile components and drone components and, but they make them domestically. So it's not like they rely on Iran for weapon shipments. And this is something Trump has said, oh, Iran has to cut them off or we're going to, you know, blame them for every attack. And he actually said some recently, like a couple weeks ago, just in a press conference, he said, did you know who knew the Houthis make their own missiles and drones? You know, could you believe that? It's like Yeah, I knew that a lot of people knew that before you started bombing them. But anyway, back to, to your point. So it is the narrative that it's like, you know, this is the axis, the, the anti Israel axis. And I do think, you know, Hezbollah is basically neutered at this point. Assad is out of Syria. They do really see the Houthis as a major thorn in Israel's side because they just keep getting better and better at being able to send missiles and drones, you know, in these, these long range attacks. So, you know, that's, that's a big part of this is trying to take out another one of Israel's enemies in the region. And of course, the big one is Iran. And I also think part of this bombing campaign is kind of as a threat to Iran, you know, because Trump saying he's going to bomb Iran if they don't reach a deal, it's not an idle threat. When you see him using two aircraft carriers and B2 bombers stationed in Diego Garcia to bomb Yemen to, you know, really bomb the crap out of the country, I mean, over a thousand airstrikes, it's just, just, it's really insane. And yeah, I think the fact that the US Is doing this for Israel could increase anti Semitism more than you saying, hey, maybe we shouldn't help kill.

Dave Smith (32:10)

Babies in Gaza, even, even more than mentioning the name Paul Wolfowitz. You think, you think this could, that was too much. Yeah, I know, it really was. It was the moment. It was the moment.

Dave DeCamp (32:22)

You know, one thing about this anti Semitism stuff, like, I think, you know, obviously if you go on X, you see this stuff, you see these kind of anonymous accounts that Jordan Peterson is talking about on Joe Rogan, I guess. But I think not talking about this stuff and pretending like Israel doesn't have this influence over our foreign policy. Yeah, like we'll, we'll add to that, fuel that fire more. But having people that can honestly discuss these things and aren't anti Semites but can discuss, you know, realistically what's happening will lead less people down that path. So that whole talking point is just nonsense.

Dave Smith (32:57)

Yeah, I, Right, I completely agree. And there's something, you know, there's like, I mentioned this a lot on the show because it's, I don't know, I think it's, it's important and it's important particularly to me. But like, so, you know, what pulled me into the libertarian world and set me on this trajectory to be whatever I am now was the Ron Paul Giuliani moment. And that Ron Paul was just making this what I found to be at the time. And then since obsessively reading about this for many years, I've just been more and more convinced is the truth is that like, you know, there is a consequence to certain military actions and that leads to creating a lot of hatred in the world. And that, you know, there's all these different kind of like, you know, different people have noted this, of course, obviously, General, General McChrystal's insurgent math. 10 minus 2 equals 20. You know, you keep killing people, and there's a lot of innocent people who get killed in the process. And then more and more people join up to the, the resistance. But it is even as you're saying that, you know, and of course, as, as Scott Horton points out and demonstrates in his, his book enough Already, you know, on September 11th, bin Laden and all of his men were like a few hundred people. And then at the height of the global war on terror, it's like tens of thousands of bin Ladenite Islamists who are like, it's just, it's right in front of you that you're not eliminating them, you're creating more of them. But as you say this, it's maybe even like the first time I'm, I'm thinking about it exactly in this way. But imagine you could zoom out, like, go back 20 years and, and you were to say, or 25 years to keep all of them in. But like, in terms of like Israel's enemies in the region, because again, this, this really was. Anyone can go read the clean break memo. Like, this was the strategy. Their strategy was like, listen, we're going to a break from the peace process. We're going to have a break from this idea that we have to settle the Israel Palestine issue in order for Israel to make peace with the broader Arab and Muslim world. And instead of settling that issue, we can just take out Israel's enemies in the broader Muslim and Arab world. And imagine you were to say to Israel, hey, you know, your big enemies, all right, Saddam Hussein, gone. Muammar Gaddafi, gone. Bashar al Assad, gone. Hezbollah's leadership totally annihilated, like, all of that. And they go, ah, shoot, now we got to go see about these Houthis. And you're like, oh, it's, it's just kind of proof. It's like, yeah, you can never whack a mole enough to get them all gone. You just can't keep doing this to the Palestinians and think that there's not going to be Resistance against that. And it's like, in the same sense that like, even just within the Israel, Palestine conflict, like, Israel's been dominating and occupying them for. For 60 years, and they're still dealing with resistance. You can never put it out enough because people do not much like to be brutally oppressed. And there's going to be resistance to that. It just seems so obvious to me.

Dave DeCamp (36:09)

Yeah. And when you talk about insurgent math and all that stuff, I mean, this applies, I think, so much with Yemen, with kind of who the Houthis are, like, what their identity is for the background of them. You know, something Douglas Murray said in your debate was he was like, oh, Iran colonized, you know, these countries. He said that they colonized Yemen. And it's just such an absurd. It's funny for, like, a British guy to say that in the first place, but for, like, to say that Iran colonized Yemen. I mean, again, it's just. It shows he has just no understanding of the situation in Yemen. Who the Houthis are. They're a specific sect of Shiite Islam. They're Zaydi Shiites. And the area of North Yemen, like, their kind of stronghold, Sada, and most of the area that they control now was ruled by Zaydi Shia imams for a thousand years until the 1960s. And the Houthis, they started, I believe they were called the believing youth. They started as like a religious movement, kind of as a pushback to the Sunni, you know, Wahhabism that the Saudis were pushing in Yemen. So they started as a religious movement, but they have very, you know, deep roots in the country. And, yeah, they're allied with Iran politically because they're. They. They ended up being on the same side of certain things. But this idea that they're. That Iran, you know. You know, because people, again, if you read the media every day and you see Iran backed. Iran backed Iran's proxy, the Iranian proxy, you would think that Iran, like, plucked some Shiites out of its. Its. Its own country and drop them in Yemen, but it's just. It's just not true. And again, their whole identity is, you know, part of this resistance against Israel, against US Imperialism, against the Gulf monarchs. And you. You do what the US Is doing now, bomb residential buildings full of civilians to kill a guy, one guy. And then, you know, you think that's not going to, you know, you talk about the insurgent math. I mean, this is just really building up their support. And my hope is that the reality is, because we see this talk about the US backing a ground campaign. But what I'm also hearing is that the other factions in Yemen, some of them have rallied behind the Houthis now in response to them being the ones, you know, really the only ones sticking up for the Palestinians at this point. So it's like really just kind of building up their whole, like, just their whole thing, their whole identity, their whole narrative. And if you're a Yemeni, just a regular guy in Yemen living in these conditions, I mean, you just got to put yourself in their shoes. We see what's happening in Gaza every day. Oh well, that's why we're being bombed now by the Americans, because we're standing up for all those, you know, those dead children you see on the news every single day. We're the only ones, you know, standing up for that. And that's why the Americans, you know, the evil empire is bombing us. I mean, that's just, it's just fertile ground for more recruitment for the Houthis, like to kind of a ridiculous degree.

Dave Smith (39:01)

Yeah, no, that's, that's exactly right. And it is the. I know, like, you know, certainly I, I do know that. Right. Like Iran was arming Hezbollah for a while. I think this is a part of a major, part of the reason why they wanted Bashar Al Assad gone. But it is interesting. First of all, like any time Hamas, Hezbollah or the Houthis, any of the H's get written about, it's always Iran backed. And yet this logic never seems to apply. Like, it's not like if Jordan ever does anything, they must be referred to as the U. S. Backed Jordanians do this or the US Backed Egyptians or the U. S backed Saudis or the U. S. Backed Israelis or the U. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's, it's just they never like apply this standard across the board, by the way. I mean, again, you know, a point I love to make. But you could also call Hamas the Israeli backed Hamas militants launched October 7th. You know, like, if you were to say it like that, it would, first of all, it would actually be much more accurate and, and, and much more damning and eye opening to the whole situation. But it is an interesting tactic that they use that you're never, you know, it's funny because if I, let's say I were to argue with someone like maybe on Joe Rogan with someone with a posh British accent, I were to say that like, hey, you know, the National Endowment for democracy and the USAID poured $100 million into the Maidan Revolution. Well, that now I'm denying agency like you're denying agency if you bring that up. And yet referring to every militant group in the region as an Iranian proxy is somehow not denying agency. And so like, like you're put like not even saying that Iran hasn't been political allies with some of these people, but they are their own groups with their own motivations as well.

Dave DeCamp (40:58)

Yeah, yeah. And as I understand, you know, Iran has a lot of sway over Hezbollah. You know, they're very closely aligned with them over the Shiite factions in Iraq that the US Helped put in power. And, but when it comes to Yemen, I mean, the Houthis are like known as being much more their own thing. So yeah, it's just, and I've seen people say the opposite, but it's just not true. Like so, but whenever we see, you know, what little mainstream coverage there is of the situation, it's like, oh, U.S. airstrike in Yemen killed 65 migrants. The Iran backed Houthis say, like they just kind of acting like everything's not really a big deal what's happened. It's like, oh, it's just the Iran backed Houthis that, that were bombing, you know, don't worry about all these civilians. So yeah, it's just, and you talk about the consequences of, of blowback and everything for what's happening now. It just, it's just there's such a better way to approach the whole region at this point. And I don't even think like Trump wouldn't be like, I think if Trump really wanted to bring peace, he, he has the ability. I mean, again, it's all Gaza is the key, but it just doesn't seem like he wants to do that.

Dave Smith (42:09)

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Dave DeCamp (44:08)

Yeah, I mean, I think the fact that he's even just saying, like, oh, if we don't reach a deal, we're going to bomb them is not, you know, that's not good. You don't need to approach these negotiations like that. And I mean, when he was asked about this report recently and somebody said it was in his time interview, they said, oh, do you think Netanyahu is going to drag you into war? And he said, I, he said I'd go willingly, basically, he said I could go into it willingly and that if we do attack, Iran will be leading the pack. So he's, you know, really making these threats. And a lot of people kind of point to his first term, like the threats against North Korea. But again, we're talking about a situation where in the same region the US has all this firepower that's bombing another country and a big part of the buildup, sending the bombers, sending the aircraft carriers and also sending air defenses to it, actually to Israel to prepare for this potential war with Iran. Like, the US has the military posture to do it. So I mean, the fact that he chose not to bomb Iran, I mean, I don't, it's hard for me to give him credit for that because, like, it shouldn't even be a possibility in the first place. But it's just concerning. You know, it does seem like he wants a deal. He does keep saying that. And while he makes these threats and it looks like the negotiations are advancing, I mean, they've had three rounds and they, both sides say they're, they're going well. On the other hand, you have the, the Trump administration officials like Marco Rubio and Mike Waltz saying publicly that any deal must dismantle Iran's nuclear enrichment program altogether. Which that's just not even, that's, that's just a non starter for Iran. But it looks like that's not the demand that they're making behind the scenes. So, I mean, it's tough to say where this is going to go. There was recently over the weekend, a huge port explosion in Iran that I believe killed 60 people. And with things like that, I mean, the Iranians haven't made the accusation that it was an attack or sabotage, but Israel has a history of sabotage attacks inside Iran and of doing them to sabotage diplomacy between the US And Iran. They did it. They detonated an explosive in an Iranian nuclear facility in April 2021 when Biden started negotiations with Iran. But again, so far, no Israeli sources have taken credit for that. Or in the Iranians, there's like an Iranian member of Parliament who accused the Israelis of being behind it. But the fact is, we don't really know at this point, but something like that, like a sabotage attack, you know, we might see things like that, that Netanyahu might do to try to sabotage the diplomacy, because I think he sees this as the time this Trump administration is his chance, possibly his last chance to get that war with Iran that he's always wanted. And then, you know, imagine if the US And Iran are engaged in a war. He could just do whatever he wants to the Palestinians in Gaza. There's not going to be nearly as much attention on it. They could advance their designs in the west bank more freely. So, yeah, it's, you know, he has a lot of motive to make this war happen. Netanyahu.

Dave Smith (47:05)

Do you think? The way I've always felt about this, as I've been paying attention to it over the last, you know, couple decades, is that it seems to me that the Iranians, you know, much like, I think this is kind of the way it always works with governments in general, but governments are, they kind of have to at least pose as your protectors in order to preserve any perceived legitimacy amongst their people. And so the Iranians, like, for example, when they responded to the Israeli attacks back last year and they sent those rockets or they sent those missiles at Israel, but they gave the US Warning and they didn't really send everything they had. They essentially, it seems like it similarly to after Donald Trump killed Solemani, and they kind of sent, like, some rockets at US Bases but didn't kill anybody. Like, they want to, you know, they basically want to act as if they've responded to kind of save face with their own people. But then at the same time, they don't really want this fight because they know, I mean, you know, if you could picture where Iran is, like, if you could picture a map of them, like, their neighbors are Iraq and Afghanistan. They've seen what the US Military has done to their two neighbors while threatening to do it to them for these entire 20 years. And it does almost seem like they're, you know, they're. They don't actually want this fight. They want to, you know, posture as if they're not pushovers and that they will respond. I think what a lot of the, you know, it's like, I almost think about, you know, like, an analogy. It would be that, like, you know, it's. Imagine you're, like, walking with your wife and, and your two kids down the street or something like that. I think we both got the same amount of kids. You were walking with your. Your two kids and your wife, and you're surrounded by much tougher guys, and they're, like, talking and they're disrespecting you, and you're almost like, all right, okay, just take it. Let's keep walking. Like, I don't want anything to happen to my family here, but, like, at a certain point, if they, they, if they cross a line, you're going to be like, well, I guess I got to fight these guys and land as many punches as I can. I'm probably going to lose, but I have to do something here. And it does seem like the Trump administration and the war hawks are presenting this as if it is an option to just take out the Iranian nuclear sites, like, to just have a massive bombing campaign in Iran, and then that's it. We don't have to do, like, a full invasion like we did in Iraq. We could just do that and then go back to life as normal. I. My guess would be there is no way that Iran could allow that to happen without some type of. Of response. And they have a lot of responses available to them. But what do you think about that? Like, do you think is it possible for the Israelis and the American military to just take out the Iranian nuclear program and that's that?

Dave DeCamp (50:07)

I do not think so. But that is the talking point we hear, like, I remember Tom Cotton said that recently in a hearing. And, and you see people who support this idea of bombing Iran acting like it'll be no big deal. But I think it's very clear if they take that step, because what it would take to try to destroy Iran's nuclear facilities would be dropping the US's heaviest bunker, busting bombs. They're like 30,000 pounds, because they built these facilities deep underground in anticipation of something like this happening. So if the US goes out and drops those bombs on that, I mean, I. They're gonna respond. And the fact is, is that they have advanced ballistic missiles that can hit, I believe, about 10 US bases in the region, probably more. And as you know, this is something Tucker has been talking about a lot lately. The Pentagon assessments are like hundreds or thousands of American casualties. And then what happens? Is Trump just going to be like, oh, well, that's that? No, then it's going to become an even bigger war. I don't really see a situation where the us, like tries to invade Iran. I mean, it's just not realistic. Like, nobody has the will. None of the people in the US have the will. The US military doesn't have the will. Where are they going to invade from? But I could see just like, really heavy bombing, maybe some ground fighting in, like, Iraq or something until somebody says, all right, enough. I guess we just gotta negotiate here or something. But, like, yeah, it's just. There's no way that the US just takes out the nuclear facilities and that's it. The other thing is that Iran does not have a nuclear weapons program. That's what US intelligence has said. That's been the consensus since the early 2000s. But they use their nuclear program essentially as leverage, and they kind of use the threat of it turning into weaponization as. As leverage. And the conversation has changed. Inside Iran, you're seeing more calls for the Ayatollah to reverse his ban on making nukes. And an advisor to the Ayatollah said that if, you know, the US and Israel attack, then we could change our position on nuclear weapons. You know, they want there to be consequences for bombing them. And that New York Times report was interesting. It said that the plans to attack Iran could set back their nuclear program by a year. So suggesting that, oh, they actually can't completely destroy it, which makes sense. So, yeah, it just. It would be like bombing a country under a phony pretext of them having a nuclear weapons program, and it could actually create one. So the whole thing, like, for every reason, it's just would be a very foolish thing to do. And there's just no reason to be this hostile against Iran right now, except for Israel.

Dave Smith (52:49)

Yeah, no, that's right. And you know, it's, it reminds me even right like that Douglas Murray said to me when I pointed out that the war in Afghanistan was not just about taking out Al Qaeda, but that we launched a 20 year regime change war against the Taliban. And he goes, well, you got dragged into the quicksand of war. And it's like, right, yeah, that's right. That sure can happen. Now, like if you, if, if you look at the, the original, you know, authorization of use of military force against Iraq, it was very narrow to take out Saddam Hussein. We took out Saddam Hussein very quickly, but then we were there for another two decades and I still have some military forces there today. Even at the beginning of the Ukraine war, Joe Biden was very clear that the Ukraine can win with sanctions, that we could support them just with sanctions. That was supposed to be the extent of American involvement. And you just see this all over the place. So the idea that, right, like we're going to, that we're gonna just bomb the crap out of Iran, but that'll be it. Man, you want to talk about risky games, that is a risky one. And, and as you said, it just seems like it would, you know, it would be a situation where they would have to really respond. And if they really responded, then how the hell are we not going to really respond to that? I mean, you know, again, just try to, try to even imagine, you know, they. There was, after Trump killed Soleimani, there was some restraint showed on both sides of that. And look, you could say killing Soleimani was probably one of the worst things Donald Trump ever did, just in terms of how risky a move it was. But then you could also say that one of the best things he ever did was just leave it at that and not, you know, respond any further. But if you could just like run a counterfactual in your head and imagine that like the Iranian retaliatory strike had killed 10 US servicemen. Is it, is it possible that Donald Trump would have. I certainly don't think so. I don't think there's any world in which Mr. Tough Guy Donald Trump, with all of his Miriam Adelson money and all of the neocon hawks that he has around him, it would possibly be able to say, you're going to just let them kill 10 US soldiers and not have a bigger response to that. And so this is, you know, the quick Sound of war, as even neocon Douglas Murray would call it. You just see it right in front of you. And. And again, for what benefit are we even playing with this game? So that the country of Iran that poses no threat to any of us might continue to pose no threat to any of us. It's just it, it's, it's madness.

Dave DeCamp (55:37)

Yeah. And fortunately, it seems like the lesson Trump got out of the Soleimani thing was that he could hit Iran hard and not really suffer any consequences. That seems to be. And you see this kind of talking point from him and, like, his supporters, like, oh, you know, Iran didn't do anything after that, after we killed Soleimani. Well, they killed Soleimani under the pretext that he was helping plot attacks on U. S. Bases in the region. A U. S. Soldier was killed a few weeks earlier in. In Kirkuk, Iraq, and we don't really know who launched that rocket. And then in March of that year, more American, I believe. Two, one or two or maybe some British soldiers. I forget exactly the number, but at least one American was killed, like, just a couple months later. So the whole talking point is, oh, Iran didn't, you know, nothing happened after we killed Solomonia. It kind of solved all the problems, but it's just not the case. So, but that is, you know, you hear Trump whenever you, you know how he always says, oh, this would have never happened if it was me. Iran was broken. He touts his first, you know, administration's Iran policy, even though it was a complete failure as, like, this great thing that, like, brought peace, which is just not. Not the case. So, unfortunately, it seems like that's. That's his thinking.

Dave Smith (56:45)

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Dave DeCamp (57:53)

Man, it's tough. You know, I think one big risk here we talk about American casualties is, is the Houthis. They're full of surprises. I wouldn't be surprised if we see one of their drones or missiles hit a US Warship or maybe they'll try to target a base across the Red Sea in Djibouti or something, or who knows? I mean, you just never know what they might be able to hit. There's a risk there and then of the US really escalating in Yemen and trying to back a ground invasion and. But what, you know, obviously the big thing is Iran. And a few weeks ago, I was much more pessimistic. I thought it was, like, inevitable, you know, when he started bombing Yemen and was making all these threats, you know, and Israel's just unleashing in Gaza again, it's just like, oh, wow, this is. We're actually just going to go into war with Iran, aren't we? But since the negotiations started and the fact that they seem to be, you know, there's progress happening. They've even had some direct engagement, and it looks like obviously Iran doesn't want a war with the US And I think they're making that very clear to Trump, so that I think the risk is a little lower. But it's so hard for me to imagine them signing a deal with Iran. It's like, that was like the Iran that was like the JCPOA that Obama negotiated because, like, every Republican is, is. Is going to be against it. Even, you know, it's just hard for me to imagine, like, an Iran nuclear deal happening right now. And that is the thing. It seems like will is the only thing that'll prevent war. So I think the chances are still pretty high of this turning into the US And Iran launching some strikes. Sorry, the US And Israel launching strikes on Iran. I think there's a good chance of that still happening here. And then who knows where things escalate from there. But it's just, you know, I just don't see. I follow the stuff in Gaza every day, the negotiations. It's like you saw Trump the other day saying, oh, he told, claiming that he told Netanyahu he's got to be good to the people in Gaza. And, you know, we're taking care of the aid situation, but there's no aid, there's no food going in there, and they're just killing dozens of people every day. So it just doesn't seem like he's willing to put any pressure on Israel to stop that right now. Even though the, you know, the American. The. The Israeli hostage with American citizenship, as apparently, according to Hamas, has gone missing after an Israeli airstrike. I mean, you think that would be enough if that was his priority, to. To get him to stop this? But it just goes on. It just goes on and on, and everybody's focused kind of more on the domestic stuff here in the U.S. i mean, for good reason. There's a lot of stuff happening, but it's just, you know, one thing really kind of showed how the media views all this stuff. After the Signal Gate thing, Trump was in the Oval Office talking to reporters, and they were, like, grilling him about them having this conversation in Signal and including the Atlantic reporter. And he was trying to deflect in the way he was trying to do it. He's like, I don't get why nobody asked me about the airstrikes against the Houthis. They're going great. We're launching all these. We're bombing them. But. And, like, nobody is saying, well, actually, they're not going great. Like, nobody challenged him on that. They just kept asking about the. The thing. So it's like, you know, and this is the issue. I mean, even with all this going on with Iran, it's like a lot of Americans don't. Just don't really follow it, and that if this does lead to the US And Israel bombing Iran, Iran hitting back with missiles, killing Americans, then. Then that's it. You know, we're at war with Iran, and, you know, however that will play out. So there's just a real risk of this unless something really changes.

Dave Smith (61:23)

Yeah, yeah. And, man, it's. It probably can't be overstated how as disastrous as the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya and Syria and Somalia and Yemen, as bad as they were, Iran is biting off a lot more than any of those. I mean, by far. And they're much more formidable. And that. That's not to say that they're a more powerful military than the United States of America, but, like, neither was the Taliban, and they outlasted us in that war. So, yeah, it's dangerous times. I tend to agree with your assessment. I would love to think that these negotiations could lead to a deal, but just looking at the people just around Donald Trump. I mean, it just seems like every one of them is going to oppose this. And so we will see. But I do appreciate, as always, Dave DeCamp, you coming and helping us understand this stuff better. Please let people know where they can find your work or anything else you want, want to promote and yeah, let them know.

Dave DeCamp (62:24)

Yeah, all my writing is@antiwar.com if you look at the news section at the top, there's usually a few articles by me there. And I have a show called Anti War News with Dave DeCamp where I basically go over the daily news stories five days a week. It's on YouTube, so if you're watching this on YouTube, you could go subscribe to that. Also on Rumble Odyssey and and most people listen to the audio the podcast. It's great to kind of just throw on it's like 30 minutes a day to get updated on the foreign policy stuff. It's kind of for foreign policy nerds and it's can get pretty depressing to listen to it every day, but people seem to like it, so. But yeah, that's it. And follow me on X at decamp. Dave is my handle over there.

Dave Smith (63:01)

Yeah, absolutely. Listen, I can't, I can't recommend Dave's work highly enough if you do want to stay informed on what's going on. And yes, it is depressing, but you know, it's. It's always better to know the truth than to bury your head in the sand. So anyway, thank you again, brother, for as always and I look forward to talking to you soon. And thank you to everybody for watching. Catch you next time. Peace.