Part Of The Problem | “Horton Destroys Wurmser”

Host: Dave Smith, GaS Digital Network
Guest: Scott Horton
Date: December 24, 2025

Episode Overview

This Christmas edition of “Part of the Problem” reunites host Dave Smith and foreign policy expert Scott Horton for a deep-dive response to neoconservative figure David Wurmser. Wurmser, co-author of the infamous “Clean Break” memo, recently gave an interview aimed at refuting the claims made by Smith and Horton about neoconservative influence on U.S. foreign policy—specifically regarding the Iraq War and the U.S.-Israel relationship. The discussion unpacks Wurmser’s attempted rebuttals, the neocon playbook, and the consequences of interventionism, with specific focus on what “Hortonian” foreign policy critique reveals about the drivers of endless war.

Main Themes

• Debunking David Wurmser’s efforts to distance neoconservatives from the Iraq War’s failures.
• Tracing neoconservative motivations—particularly the U.S.-Israel alliance, Zionism, and the real aims of the “Clean Break” strategy.
• Reflecting on the rise of “Hortonian” antiwar analysis and its impact on policy discourse.
• Highlighting the historical continuity, emotional drivers, and disastrous consequences of neoconservative intervention in the Middle East.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Dissident Voices Destabilize Establishment Narratives

Dave Smith opens by contextualizing the episode:

• The show’s audience has grown significantly, and so has the influence of both Smith and Horton within the antiwar libertarian sphere.
• Smith explains that neoconservatism and its push for Middle East intervention was a defining factor for his political consciousness after 9/11.
• The episode is framed around a peculiar reversal: one-time government policy architects like Wurmser now feel compelled to respond to outside critics whose influence has surpassed theirs within certain circles.

“There’s just something surreal about the situation…where David Wurmser himself is sitting down to respond to us—and nobody cares.” —Dave Smith, [07:10]

2. Why Focus on War and Peace?

Smith and Horton emphasize that opposition to war is central to their libertarian worldview:

• War is both the most destructive government program (robbing life, liberty, property) and the primary enabler of state power.
• They are “the heirs of Rothbard and Raimondo”—with personal and philosophical vendettas against the architects of war:

“[Libertarians] are the heirs of Murray Rothbard and Justin Raimondo … We hate these people and they should be destroyed.” —Scott Horton, [08:21]

3. Wurmser Responds: The Deflections and Myths of the Neocons

The Israel Lobby & American Interests

Wurmser claims neocons aren’t “unconditionally committed to Israel,” but rather to “advancing American interests”—and that supporting Israel is in America’s interest because Israel is “the cradle of Western civilization.”

“Israel represents values. So it’s not another country. It’s the cradle of Western civilization … You can't uphold the foundations…if you remove those pillars, then you become sort of without guardrails.” —David Wurmser, [13:16]

Smith and Horton lampoon this evasive rhetoric:

• Smith ridicules the conflation of U.S. and Israeli interests, comparing it to claiming devotion to a spouse while rationalizing infidelity.

  “Dude, you’re saying the same thing, man…You are saying the exact same thing!” —Dave Smith, [15:10]

• They note the empty religiosity and mythic justifications that avoid material realities or specific policy arguments.

  “The empty religiosity, nothingness of all of this…” —Dave Smith, [15:24]

Avoiding the Central Question

Wurmser repeatedly wanders into philosophical and theological territory—the Torah, Dostoevsky, etc.—to sidestep direct questions about the Israel lobby and concrete policy outcomes.

“Sir, the question was: Are you a part of the Israel lobby who lied us into war?” —Dave Smith, [19:31]

“Or are you just avoiding the question?” —Scott Horton, [21:03]

4. The Clean Break Memo: Origins and Delusions

Horton’s Primer

• “Clean Break” (1996)—written for Benjamin Netanyahu upon becoming Israeli PM—recommended breaking from the Oslo peace process, focusing on removing regional threats (Iraq, Syria), and leveraging exiles like Ahmed Chalabi.
• The memo rested on the farcical “Hashemite option”—the theory that installing a pro-western Hashemite ruler in Iraq would make the Shiite majority friendly to Israel and the US.
• Chalabi (the Iraqi exile) fed false promises to neocons—claims debunked by experience and even at the time by informed observers.

Wurmser’s Spin

Wurmser claims:

• The memo was not a plot for the US to fight Israel’s wars!
• The plan was to have Iraqis (with some western assistance) liberate Iraq themselves.
• Acknowledges reliance on Chalabi but calls him “complex.”

Smith and Horton deconstruct this as a semantic dodge:

“Is the whole battle here semantics? ... then the group, what you just said, David Wurmser. That's who I'm blaming. Those people.” —Dave Smith, [17:29]

Exposing the Farce

Scott cites contemporary accounts (e.g., Mark Zell, John Desard) admitting Chalabi was using neocons, selling them fantasies in exchange for influence.

“So that's how stupid David Wurmser is—he got screwed by [Chalabi] right in the face.” —Scott Horton, [42:03]

Wurmser still, after two decades of carnage, defends these original premises without acknowledging catastrophe or error.

5. Emotional Drivers, Denial, and the Neoconservative Mindset

• Smith draws a parallel to communist true believers who cling to discredited theories in the face of overwhelming evidence of harm:

“The profound sickness in believing in a theory, putting it into practice, watching utter disaster… and your takeaway… ‘No, the theory was still right.’” —Dave Smith, [64:48]

• Even as a million people die and tens of millions are displaced, Wurmser confesses no error—he simply suggests the method was flawed, not the core idea.

6. The Bigger Neocon Network

• Horton details the neocon apparatus in the Bush administration—Wolfowitz, Perle, Libby, Feith, Abrams, etc.—and their network in think tanks, media, and lobbying arms like AIPAC.
• He points to hard evidence: misleading intelligence, war propaganda pipelines, the “separate government” described by Colin Powell, and ongoing influence campaigns.

“…neoconservatives completely controlled the National Review, the Weekly Standard, the editorial pages of the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times and the Washington Post…” —Scott Horton, [85:09]

7. Wurmser’s Accidental Confession

Most revealing is Wurmser’s passing remark about why conquering Iraq mattered:

“We were afraid that if you let this [Arab nationalist] genie back out of the bottle. It undoes the Cold war in the Middle East … Also, in terms of Israel, we wanted Yasser Arafat not to have the cavalry over the horizon in the form of Saddam, to use whatever he was to wage war.” —David Wurmser, [88:26]

Smith and Horton seize on this as a blanket admission:

“That’s the whole argument right there… you literally just admitted that a major consideration for why you, the neoconservatives wanted to overthrow Saddam Hussein was that the Israel-Palestine conflict…might be helped from our point of view, by it.” —Dave Smith, [90:12]

8. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• [08:21] Scott Horton:
  “We are the heirs of Murray Rothbard and Justin Raimondo. And so that's why we do what we do because we hate these people and they should be destroyed.”

• [13:16] David Wurmser:
  “Israel represents values … it is the cradle of Western civilization.”

• [15:10] Dave Smith:
  “Dude, you’re saying the same thing, man.”

• [44:41] Dave Smith:
  “You wrote the Clean Break to Benjamin Netanyahu … You care about this because of Israeli goals. Like, that's the whole point here.”

• [42:03] Scott Horton:
  “So that's how stupid David Wormser is—he got screwed by [Chalabi] right in the face.”

• [64:48] Dave Smith:
  “The profound sickness in believing in a theory, putting it into practice, watching utter disaster … ‘No, the theory was still right.’”

• [88:26] David Wurmser:
  “We were afraid that… if you let this genie back out of the bottle, … Also, in terms of Israel, we wanted… not to have the cavalry over the horizon in the form of Saddam…”

• [90:12] Dave Smith:
  “That's the whole argument right there. You literally just admitted it.”

Important Timestamps

• [07:10] — Smith reflects on the reversal of dissident vs. establishment influence.
• [13:16] — Wurmser’s defense of neoconservatism as pro-Western values.
• [21:03] — Horton calls out Wurmser for evading substantive questions.
• [33:50] — Horton summarizes the Clean Break’s core, and its fatal flaws.
• [42:03] — Horton on Chalabi deceiving the neocons.
• [64:48] — Smith on the neocon “communist” mindset: clinging to theory over evidence.
• [85:09] — Horton details neocon control of media and think tanks.
• [88:26] — Wurmser’s accidental admission re: Israel’s motivation for toppling Saddam.
• [90:12] — Smith underscores Wurmser conceding the entire critique.

Concluding Challenge and Call to Debate

Smith and Horton end with a direct challenge:

“Why don’t we set it up…Scott Horton vs. David Wurmser debate on this and you can bring all your stuff about how Israel’s the cradle of Western civilization…and we’ll see how that does up against some pushback.” —Dave Smith, [97:09]

Horton proposes the Soho Forum as an appropriate setting for such a debate.

Closing Tone

• The conversation is candid, biting, and occasionally irreverent. Smith and Horton’s deep exasperation with neocon persistence fuels both humor and righteous anger.
• The episode is rich with historical anecdotes, first-hand knowledge, and a sense that “the dissidents have inherited the narrative, if not the power.”
• Ultimately, the show argues that emotional, tribal attachment to Israel—not sober calculation—drove would-be empire builders into disaster, and that the record stands as a warning for the future.

For listeners seeking a clear, unapologetic breakdown of the neocon legacy, this episode offers both the summary judgment and the receipts.

Further Reading/Citations Mentioned:

• “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm” (1996 Memo)
• Mearsheimer & Walt, “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy”
• James Bamford, “A Pretext for War”
• Robert Dreyfus, “More Missing Intelligence” (The Nation)
• John Desard, Financial Times/Salon article on Chalabi

Scott Horton Academy: scotthortonacademy.com
Dave Smith: partoftheproblem.com