Part of the Problem – Episode Summary

Guest: John Kiriakou

Date: December 4, 2025

Episode Theme Overview

In this episode, host Dave Smith sits down with former CIA officer and renowned whistleblower John Kiriakou. The conversation delves into U.S. government hypocrisy, foreign policy, the criminalization of whistleblowing, and the intimate ties and double standards present in the U.S.-Israeli relationship. Key themes include the legacy and lessons of the CIA’s torture program, shifting definitions of terrorism, the realities of the deep state, and the business motivations underpinning decades of American war and intelligence policy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Gets Punished for Torture?

• Torture Whistleblowers Punished
  • Dave opens by recalling the common misconception that no one went to jail over the U.S. torture program. He corrects this by reminding listeners that only those who exposed the program—like John Kiriakou—were prosecuted, not the program’s architects.
  • “The person who went to jail for it...is the person who exposed it to the American people.” (Host, 01:14)

2. Parallel Abuse: U.S. & Israel

• UN Report on Torture
  • Dave references a recent U.N. Commission report documenting systematic torture of Palestinians, drawing disturbing parallels to U.S. conduct post-9/11.
  • Both discuss how language is manipulated to frame “Israeli hostages” vs. “Palestinian prisoners,” despite lacking any due process for either.
• Human Rights Hypocrisy
  • “We can’t pretend to be this great beacon of hope...if we’re just going to be hypocrites about it.” (Kiriakou, 05:52)
  • Kiriakou shares an anecdote about issuing human rights warnings as a State Department liaison while CIA operations undermined those efforts—exposing U.S. dual standards in practice.

3. Terms, Propaganda, and Public Opinion

• Weaponized Language

  • Dave and John dissect how the government and media weaponize language to justify abuses: “terrorist,” “counterterrorism,” “hostage,” “prisoner.”
  • Noam Chomsky’s critique is echoed: “It’s terrorism when they do it, and it’s counterterrorism when we do it.” (Host, 16:13)

• Media Manipulation

  • The use of terms like “Islamo-fascism” and “narco-terrorist” are cited as consciously crafted propaganda campaigns.
  • “It’s all domestic propaganda. All of it.” (Kiriakou, 55:12)

4. Deep State Reality

• How Bureaucracies Outlast Elected Officials

  • Kiriakou recounts his first real encounter with the “deep state” at the CIA—a bureaucracy so entrenched and permanent that it routinely outlasts presidents and thwarts political oversight.
  • “[The deep state]...it’s there, it exists.” (Kiriakou, 24:09)

• Oversight Fails

  • Congressional oversight was a fleeting check that quickly eroded in the face of new government abuses, such as Iran-Contra, due to politicized interests and willful blindness.

5. Neoconservatives, War, and “Stupid” Policy

• The March to War

  • Detailed discussion of the neoconservative push for Middle East regime change, and the instrumental role of figures like Richard Perle and Dick Cheney.
  • Kiriakou’s firsthand account of a 2003 Principals Committee meeting where Iran was discussed as the “next target” before Iraq was even invaded:
    • “If all goes as planned, we can be in Tehran by August.” (Kiriakou recounting General Tommy Franks, 40:07)
  • Dave emphasizes this wasn’t just about mistakes—there was a clear, written plan, pursued across administrations, for toppling Middle Eastern governments.

• Ignorance or Malice?

  • Kiriakou critiques the “willful blindness” of policymakers—how U.S. planners could believe regime change would yield peace, ignoring both history and the body count.
  • “Could you not think that two million people are going to end up dead?” (Kiriakou, 43:34)

6. The U.S.-Israel Intelligence Relationship

• Constant Espionage and Disrespect

  • Kiriakou provides vivid anecdotes of Israeli intelligence harassment of CIA officers in Israel—from petty sabotage to actual violence against pets.

  • Despite copious evidence of Israeli espionage (e.g., Jonathan Pollard), the U.S. government avoids retaliation for political reasons.

  • “The United States does not spy on Israel...But Israel actively, consistently has spied on the United States.” (Kiriakou, 59:13)

• Pollard Case as Microcosm

  • Kiriakou recounts how Pollard sold secrets to Israel, which were then traded to the USSR, and received a hero’s welcome by Netanyahu after serving a full prison term, urging American Jews to spy for Israel and advocating threats of nuclear force against the U.S.

7. Why Do Americans Become Spies?

• Money, Ideology, Politics
  • The majority of espionage, Kiriakou explains, is motivated by money, not ideology—a reminder that, at all levels, policy and betrayal often trace back to cash.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On U.S. Hypocrisy:

  • “We’re either going to be a country that is a shining beacon for human rights or we’re not.” (Kiriakou, 05:52)

• On Torture Report:

  • “In reality, war crimes aren’t illegal, but reporting on them is.” (Host, 19:43)

• On Israel’s Influence & Treatment of U.S.:

  • “Why with us like that when we’re your only lifeline?...We’re giving you billions of dollars...so you can have your own welfare state that we don’t have here.” (Kiriakou, 61:07)

• On Deep State Power:

  • “Presidents come and go...that’s the power that you’ve built.” (Kiriakou, 23:05)

• On Neoconservatives:

  • “They just bided their time knowing they had a champion in Dick Cheney...Once we got hit [on 9/11]...it was just history from there.” (Kiriakou, 33:13)

• On Money and Corruption:

  • “[In Spying] for the most part, this is just a cash transaction.” (Kiriakou, 67:59)
  • “It’s not an accident [that] after 9/11, [the highest per capita concentration of millionaires] is in Washington DC.” (Kiriakou, 69:04)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:14 – Correction: Whistleblowers prosecuted, not torturers
• 05:52 – Hypocrisy in U.S. human rights policy
• 16:13 – Chomsky’s terrorism/counterterrorism critique
• 18:19 – “War crimes aren’t illegal, but reporting on them is.”
• 23:05 – Deep state explanation
• 33:13 – Neocons waiting for the chance post-9/11
• 40:07 – Principals Committee: “We can be in Tehran by August.”
• 59:13 – U.S.-Israel espionage dynamics
• 61:07 – Mossad harassment of U.S. officers
• 67:59 – “For the most part, it’s about the money.”

Overall Tone

• Candid, irreverent, and often sardonic—Dave and John do not mince words about the incompetence, corruption, and hypocrisy endemic to U.S. intelligence and foreign policy.
• The tenor is one of frustrated realism—witnesses to government crimes who now feel compelled to spell out the rot for a public only slowly waking up.

Further Resources

• John Kiriakou on YouTube: Deprogram & Deep Focus
• Dead Drop: What Makes a Spy Tick – Apple Podcasts
• Kiriakou on X (Twitter), Instagram, Facebook

This episode serves as a grimly humorous, fact-laden explainer on why U.S. foreign policy appears so consistently self-defeating, corrupt, and criminal—and why whistleblowers, not war criminals, end up in jail.