John R. Miles (8:33)

I am absolutely thrilled today to welcome Annmarie Anderson to Passion Struck. Welcome Annemarie.

Ann Marie Anderson (8:39)

Thanks, John. I'm excited to talk with you.

John R. Miles (8:41)

As I talked about in the introduction, your career is filled with many extraordinary accomplishments, from winning Emmy awards to covering the Olympics and other major sporting events. What are some pivotal moments that shaped your approach to boldness and dismantling doubt, Things we're going to cover in depth today.

Ann Marie Anderson (9:01)

I started ESPN when I was 21 years old in a temporary position. It was only guaranteed for six months. And I think to start my professional career in a competitive way, knowing that I needed to compete in those six months and really shine and stand out and be bold and different, shaped the way that I approached my career. As a former athlete, I'm used to competing and to be able to there's no time to warm up. There's no time to be shy, which I was when you're pitching story ideas for ESPN's sports center. I think right out of the gate I learned quickly that I needed to be willing to take some bold risks in my career if I wanted to succeed.

John R. Miles (9:47)

Well, I know for me that being a Division 1 athlete really was critical in in developing so many aspects of who I am. And my mindset around the importance of taking action, how it developed, my relationship with teammates and the power that they bring to supporting you and encouraging you. I know you had a really illustrious career at Hofstra. How did that influence your competitive spirits and resilient resilience that you now have in life and in your career?

Ann Marie Anderson (10:19)

I totally agree with you. There's so much that can be learned from being part of a team at any level that you take into business. I had a little bit of a unique situation going into college. I was a pretty good volleyball player and I was being recruited by a lot of the west coast schools. I had talked to Hawaii and Long beach and UCLA and such. And then I broke my leg. And so all of my offers were west coast went away. I literally went on recruiting trips on CRUTCHES with a broken leg. And that's how I ended up at Hofstra, a school I had never heard of before up to that point, because I'm a Colorado kid and I live in California now. And I think what I learned being there was the value of adaptation. It was a different level of volleyball at that point. And I look now at all the kids transferring from one school to the other to get the, the best opportunity. And what I learned there at Hofstra was really how to work within a different system, how to embrace. I was so. I mean, New York is a different culture altogether. How to embrace a different culture. And I feel like that resilience because we didn't win a lot. And I learned how to reframe my relationship with failure, with losing at times, until by my senior year we were winning quite a bit. I think if I had gone into a really winning program and sat the bench, by the way, I'm sure I would have. I maybe wouldn't have been quite as resilient as I ended up being by the time I graduated.

John R. Miles (11:54)

Yeah, it really does make a huge difference. And I'm so honored that I had that background. And having gone to a service academy, I sometimes wonder how much it would have been different if I went to a, a normal university where you didn't have. Where I'm sure the sports focus would have been even more pronounced. I think our coaches knew we had these other elements to our existence, so they couldn't own all our time. But I think at other universities you're really owned by the sport that you're part of.

Ann Marie Anderson (12:27)

Yes. And thank you for your service. By the way, which academy did you go to?

John R. Miles (12:30)

I went to the Naval Academy.

Ann Marie Anderson (12:32)

Thank you very much for your service.

John R. Miles (12:35)

Thank you. Today we are going to be discussing your brand new book. Congratulations on that, Cultivating Audacity. And I think it's important to start out with maybe a definition of what audacity is completely, because I think in.

Ann Marie Anderson (12:50)

This country we have this negative connotation of audacity. Right. I mean it's. You have the audacity to ask me that or the audacity to say that. Who do you think you are? I mean, my parents used to say that once in a while to me when I was a teenager, and then I looked it up. And audacity by definition is the willingness to take bold risks. That's not negative. Doesn't have any kind of a negative ringtone to it to me. In fact, my sister in law is from Argentina and she was Surprised to hear that there is sometimes a little bit of a negative undercurrent with the word because in Argentina, audacity is all the positive things. Looking at taking bold risk, which is audacity, I don't think it's something you're born with joy on. I think it is something that you have to cultivate and grow. And that's why that's the title Cultivating Audacity, because it takes practice in order to take bold risks and have the confidence to do so.

John R. Miles (13:45)

I have a friend of mine, Scott Simon, who wrote the book Scare your soul, and he's trying to start a courage movement. But I think it's the same thing. You've got to start taking boundary expanding actions if you want to grow from it. And I think that's, as I read the book, a lot of your philosophy as well, for sure.

Ann Marie Anderson (14:05)

Because again, it's about reframing what failure looks like. I tell people that like to be. Oh, I just. I don't like risk. I want to stay the same. That's great if you're completely happy with every aspect of your life, your health and fitness, your relationships, your work, everything. But the only thing that staying the same ensures is that there's no growth possible. So if you want to grow in any one area of your life, staying the same is not an option. You're going to have to risk. Take information from that leap, whatever it is, and keep using it to drive you towards your vision and your values. That's really what it's about, is anything that brings you closer to your vision, your values, and who you want to be.

John R. Miles (14:46)

Emory, you have had a lot of defining experiences and success stories in your life. Is there a time when you took a bold risk that didn't pay off? And if so, what did you learn from it?

Ann Marie Anderson (14:59)

It's an interesting question. I feel like none of them paid off. At the beginning, it was all about learning. I mean, my first time on air was in 78 million homes, and I was horrible. And I was afraid that I was going to be horrible and exposed and judged and embarrassed. And when I went on air, I was all those things. But I survived it. I mean, in terms of a bold risk that doesn't work out, it depends on whether you're looking at the outcome. I mean, the audacity is in the action. The victory is in the action, not in the outcome. So I went on air and everything that I was afraid of was true. And I survived it and I got some resilience and some data to Try to be better next time. As I look through my life and I look at any risk that I took, they all led me somewhere. Does that make sense that I don't count any of them as failures are not working out? It all just became information for me.

John R. Miles (15:55)

I remember hearing you talk about that appearance on another podcast that I was listening to prepare for this. And you were in. In that discussion, talking about a conversation you were having with your husband before you. You did the event and you were going through your head all the things that could happen, your career could come. It could be the end of your being a producer, it could be the end of you being a broadcaster. It could be the end of this and that. And I think that's something that we all tend to do. I know for me, it's always been intimidating to do public speaking. And I had one speech that I gave that didn't fall the way I wanted it to on a sales. For a sales organization. And when I think about all the successes I had, they. They are not the first thing that comes to my mind. It's always that failure moment. But I think because of it, it's made me prepare even more now about what does the audience want, what do I need to deliver, how do I show up in the best way? Do you think it's the same thing for you?

Ann Marie Anderson (17:05)

I think that's a great example, John. Isn't that the worst? First of all, my sympathies, right. You give the speech and then it falls flat and you're standing there like the emperor has no cl. But you got information from it.

John R. Miles (17:16)

There's nothing you can do.

Ann Marie Anderson (17:18)

There's nothing you can do. You're standing there naked in your head. Exactly. But you got information from it and rebounded. The incident you're talking about with my husband at the time was, I was terrified that first time, going on air, standing outside the stadium, sobbing. You want your reporter sobbing outside the stadium right before you go on ESPN2? It was. And 78 million homes. And what I tell people is that if you catastrophize the absolute worst that can happen, at some point, you're going to realize that it's probably not going to go that far. So the story that you were talking about, I said I could be so bad that not only will I never be on television again, but I'll never be able to produce again, as you talked about, because nobody will listen to me and I'll lose my entire career in television. And if I lose my entire career in television, this is all I've ever wanted to do so. So I will be a miserable person, and you will have no choice but to leave me because I won't be able to be a good mother to our children who haven't even been born yet. And I will die destitute and alone. And he was like, wow, you went there. But once you catastrophize it, obviously I'm not going to die destitute and alone because I'm bad on a television camera one time. So once you take it to that ridiculous level, you can survive anything. And that's really what it's about, is taking the action and no matter the outcome, knowing that you can survive and make another decision. Sometimes I feel like when we're going to make a decision, it feels like the last one we're going to make. If this doesn't work out and it's not the case, catastrophize. It'll make it seem a little bit easier.

John R. Miles (19:03)

I wanted to ask you one more question on your background before we go further into the book. Anne Marie, what's the most audacious decision you've made in your career, and how did you navigate the uncertainty that came with it?

Ann Marie Anderson (19:17)

The most audacious thing I did, looking back, and I almost can't believe it like that. The hubris of young people. When I was 26, I lived in Bristol at ESPN's headquarters and loved my job. When I was 26, I took a vacation to Southern California to visit my brother in February. And I was thinking, man, people are playing beach volleyball out there in February and I'm shoveling snow. And so I went back to the headquarters and I said to my boss, I'd like to be L. A Bureau producer. And he said, well, we already have an LA bureau producer. And I was like, I know. That's what makes this conversation so awkward, trying to chuckle it away. And as we discussed, he said, how about this? Give me two more years here, and in two years, if we haven't made you LA bureau producer, what have you really lost? And I thought, well, two years in my 20s. And so I gave him my notice. He called me impatient. I just knew, John, that I wasn't enjoying my life. I was enjoying my job, but not my life, my free time. And so I gave him my notice and I quit espn, an absolute dream job, and drove cross country. And I didn't know what I was going to do. I just knew I wasn't going to shovel snow. And when I got to Los Angeles, ESPN gave me some freelance work as soon as I arrived. And by the end of the year, I had been hired back at ESPN as LA bureau producer for double the salary. And that taught me, because I didn't make the decision for money, I made it for my life. To be able to enjoy the quality of my life and having more money was an unexpected consequence.

John R. Miles (21:03)

I am so glad you shared this, and I think it's something I want to explore a little bit more because I think there are a lot of people out there who really feel stuck, I call it on the show quiet desperation, where they get in a situation where they're making the money, they have the quality of life, they think, but they tend to be chasing the wrong things and their life is out of balance. That is exactly what happened to me. And how does someone who's in this position take the steps to get out their way out of it? Because it's much easier to talk about it than it is to actually do it.

Ann Marie Anderson (21:43)

Yes. So here's the first thing to consider when I talk about risks. I define in the book that there's risks that are reckless and risks that are worth it. And risks that are worth it is anything that drives you closer to your values, vision and who you want to be. That leaving my job and moving across country was worth it to me at 26, when I didn't own any property, didn't have a family, no kids. If I were to do that same thing now, that would be reckless. So first define those two. Then, as you're talking about, you may have somebody who's making a nice living and really not enjoying their work, but they're thinking, well, if I leave this, that could be reckless for my family. Then you want to explore what it is that you really enjoy and that you're good at and how you can get there in a worth it kind of way. And for me, if you have someone who's unhappy, let's say, in their job or their current situation, what exactly is it about it that you're unhappy with? Is it the actual work? Is it the location? Is it the people that you work with? Is it the field all together? Because you need to pinpoint what it is in order to change it. And then I have a series of exercises throughout the book to help you narrow the focus. Because I'll tell you this, John, there's always, after all my research and everybody I've talked to, there's always one of four things that stands between us and the thing we want to do, the life we want to lead, what we want our life to look like, it always comes down to one of these four fear, time, money, or your inner critic every time. And so diving into those and exploring what it is that's been stopping you can be incredibly powerful in breaking free.

John R. Miles (23:39)

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John R. Miles (25:13)

It absolutely is the truth. And I think one of the things that I found when reading your book on this chapter that we're talking about is you write there isn't one reason to make a change. Everyone has a different rationale. But be careful about external motivation centered on others. Sometimes we may want to prove something wrong or make them feel proud of us. Other times we seek approval from those we esteem and aim to please them. We may do something audacious or take a risk because we want to put it on social media to impress people. Where I'm going with here is a lot of times we Take these risks for external reasons. But what I have found is that if you're going to take a risk, the. The ones that I have done in the past that are focused on external seem to have a high failure rate. The ones that I have done that are based on intrinsic motivation tend to have a high success rate. Do you find a correlation in that?

Ann Marie Anderson (26:16)

Absolutely. I mean, if you think about the example I gave you, moving to Los Angeles, had I done that for money, I really think I wouldn't have had the money. It wasn't about that. It was internal, the way I wanted my life to be. Look, if you're doing taking a risk because you want to impress somebody, understand, they may not even notice. Right? You're thinking in your head, oh, I want them to be proud of me. They may not even notice. And the easiest way to check yourself about whether your motivation is of pure intent is is it going to give you more of what you love in your life, whatever that is, more time with your family, more autonomy, even if it's going to give you more money in your life, why do you want the money? What are you going to do with the money? But that's the easiest check. Does it give you more of what you love in your life? If it's an external motivation to make somebody proud? Doesn't fit that definition.

John R. Miles (27:19)

I like this section of the book where you were talking to. It was before you even launched your career. And there was an advisor who was talking to about a hundred of you and said that maybe one of you out of the hundred has a chance to be in broadcasting and to, to be successful. And I would think when you started that would have been even more daunting as a female at that time in a very male dominated one broadcasting, but two sports broadcasting world. So I think oftentimes we hear something like that. It could be a teacher, it could be a mentor we have, it could be a coach who gives us the barriers to, to be successful and we end up giving up all hope and don't pursue it for you. What led you to hear that and have the audacity to pursue it no matter what? Because I think that's what really differentiates the people who go for it. And I'll just make the correlation here. Like when I started this podcast, people were telling me, why are you even starting a podcast? They're like 3 million of them. This thing is never going to be a success. And if I had listened to them, I wouldn't be here talking to you. It's the same Thing as you started your career.

Ann Marie Anderson (28:36)

Exactly. And can I ask you a quick question before I answer? Why you start podcast? Why did you start it then with people selling you like it's futile?

John R. Miles (28:46)

I started it because I was called to serve people. And I felt that the best way to do it and to get my message out was I needed a vehicle to do it. I didn't care about making money. That was never the goal. I didn't care about how many downloads I got. That wasn't the goal. I just felt if I could influence one person, it could have a ripple effect.

Ann Marie Anderson (29:09)

And that's exactly what you've done. Perfect example, John, of pure intention. It gave you more of what you love, which was helping people. That's the same way I feel about the book. I get so excited when somebody does the thing or takes the risk. And so for me, I always tell people, some of us build backwards. I. I wouldn't have gone into accounting. I can't add. I faint at the sight of blood. I don't like the idea of working inside all day. I started eliminating all these professions. I love sports. I like talking to people. And so when the professor said that I didn't have a plan B, I heard him and I thought, wow, that's really a bummer for you guys. Literally, I. I can't believe it when I look back. That's my thought when we were in there. But I don't have another choice, and that's why I kept pursuing it. What's your other choice? I always tell people, if you have a plan B, go do that, because plan B is always easier. But for me, I knew this was the only thing I ever wanted to do. And so I was gonna have to figure it out no matter how many times somebody told me no or what the odds are.

John R. Miles (30:22)

So I want to jump to the area of preparation. And I remember doing an interview with Susan Cain, and I was talking to her about her TED talk that went viral. I think she has 40, 50 million views on it. Awesome. And it was such a well done, well rehearsed TED Talk. And she said, well, what people don't see is the 200 times I did it and failed.

Ann Marie Anderson (30:47)

Yes.

John R. Miles (30:47)

Because I practiced it so many times before I got up there in front of that stage and tried all different types of ways to approach it before I got confident in how I wanted to deliver it. And one of my other favorite interviews on the show was with Sally Jenkins, who I'm sure you probably know. And I was interviewing Sally about her book, the right Call. But she was talking to me about her time observing the most elite of elite athletes, and she was telling me that what she saw differentiate them from even a level athletes was this extraordinary mental and physical preparation that they do that just goes above and beyond. And using that as a backdrop. How do you see this relationship between preparation, our mindset, and then our willingness to take audacious leaps?

Ann Marie Anderson (31:47)

I love that question, because if you ask anybody in television about me, they will say that I'm prepared. I'm known for my preparation when I'm preparing for a game, and it's all a safety net. It was interesting when you were talking about the person giving the TED talk that you said, she did it 200 times and failed, whereas I would ask, is it really failure, or is it data or information she's getting in order to get it to exactly where she wants to go? Preparation is everything. And here's the thought. When it comes to audacious moves, I don't want anybody leaping off, you know, the cliff to, oh, I'm gonna. I'm gonna succeed at this. I'm gonna put all my money in this and just jump into it. It's about the careful preparation. What are the steps I need to take in order to get there? What are the plans that. The backup plans that could go. That, for me, is where all the good stuff is in terms of planning and preparing. When I go on air to call a game, because I'm still a working broadcaster for espn, people will see me on the air for two hours calling a basketball game. But it's been four days of preparation, researching, talking to coaches, talking to players, interviewing. But before I ever get on air for those two hours, the game itself, the speech itself, the cog is the reward. It's the preparation where you really dig in and grow the most.

John R. Miles (33:16)

I completely agree with you. And as people have come on the podcast, I get a lot of people who say, your interviews are different from everyone else's. And I say, well, that's on purpose, because I try to do so much research that I don't want to have the same interview someone else has with a guest, because then what's the point if they've already done it? My favorite thing is when I have a guest and I ask a question, they go, no one has ever asked that to me before.

Ann Marie Anderson (33:41)

Yes, exactly.

John R. Miles (33:43)

But it's not like Barbara Walters became Barbara Walters because she just came up with the questions on the fly before she had a guest. I have to imagine that she dedicated herself to the art of Preparation to become the person that she was. And I think the same thing goes with anyone in their field.

Ann Marie Anderson (34:07)

Absolutely. Barbara Walters, for example, and her team, careful preparation and then the ability after that to be flexible. Because you can prepare and have all your questions and then you get an answer you don't expect and you want to just stay with your questions. I see that all the time. With the ability to be flexible, well, you can apply that to any profession, Right. Here's what you plan to do. Here's something that comes in that's different, some data. And you need to be flexible in order to take your preparation and adjust to the current situation. So yes, I think it's both of those things. It's the preparation and then the flexibility within it.

John R. Miles (34:45)

ANNEMARIE I want to jump to a different area of showing audacity, and that is showing audacity to our kids. And as I was reading your book, something really struck me. My grandmother used to always tell us when we were kids how she always wanted to go to medical school and never got, never found her way to do it. I can't tell you how many times I heard her tell us this regret. And in the book you talk about Your mom, who's 93 years old, and she told you one time, anne Marie, I envy you because I always wanted to work outside the house but never figured out how to do it. And I mean, it's an emotional statement, both, both of them, because it's like a big part of who they are, got trapped and never got to express itself, which is very sad. But I think there's a big lesson here that we can learn from this on how by the fact that we're willing to take risks, shows our children that it's okay to do, to be brave as well. And I was hoping you might be able to talk about that.

Ann Marie Anderson (35:54)

For sure. The other thing is, when something does not succeed, show that to your children as well. An example immediately comes to mind where I had been booked to be a play by play announcer for a series of games. And I was waiting for my contract and my contract didn't come. And finally I asked the producer, hey, is there a problem? And they said yes. They said the general manager and head coach decided that he wanted somebody else. And I thought, well, I haven't even met him. You offered me the job, I cleared my schedule. You told me you were the person hiring and now somebody else. And I was so frustrated by that. John I tend to cry when I'm frustrated. I don't hide it. That's just one of the ways I release it. So I'm crying in my office afterwards, frustrated. And I decided I wasn't gonna let that happen. I have no control over whether or not he hired me, but I did have control about being able to talk to him and say, here's who, you're not hiring. And so I walked out of my office through the kitchen. My children were pretty small at the time. They see me upset. And I said, never just let somebody deny you something without asking questions. And I went to the airport, bought a ticket at the counter, flew up to as a short flight, met this particular boss and said, hey, I wanted to have a conversation with you about that. And it was really important for me to show the kids that I was going to have that conversation with him. I did. And he said, look, it's not personal. I said, of course it's personal. I'm a person. I just wanted you to know who you're not hiring. At the end of the meeting, he did hire me. He gave me a raise as a matter of fact, before I even started. And I came back and my kids got to see that those are my favorite moments when they get to see their parent. Their father is the same way. Be resilient, be resourceful. I'm hoping that on my gravestone my kids will see the words work the problem. Because that's what I tell them all the time when there's an issue, okay, do you want to be helped, hurt or hugged? And if they say they want to be helped, I say, great, let's work the problem.

John R. Miles (38:06)

I think it's so important. And I remember one of these things also comes to, I think, helping our kids see their failures. And you were in this interview Talking about your 12 year old who at the time was having some confidence issues and some body image issues, which I think whether you're a male or a female, we all go through it. I grew up as a heavyset kid and I can't tell you how, how much that affected how I viewed the world and looked at myself. And I loved how you helped your 12 year old through this. And I was hoping you might be able to share this story.

Ann Marie Anderson (38:45)

The fourth barrier that I find really common and everybody has it, is your inner critic, that voice in your head that is telling you, ready, you don't have all the qualifications, maybe you're not good enough. Other people are more qualified for the thing that you want to do. And in picking my 12 year old up from school one day and she gets in the car Hi, honey, how's school? School? And she says, I'm stupid, I can't do math, and oh, by the way, I'm fat. And I was like, yo, that's a lot in one moment. And when we talked about it, I asked the questions that a lot of people would ask at that point. Would you say that to me? Would you say that to somebody else? No, why would you say it to yourself? But we went a step further and I said, okay, if that's not something that you would normally say, then that's not your voice. And a lot of psychology experts, I realized, have advised the same thing where you separate that inner critic from yourself simply by giving it a name. Just the simple fact your brain will recognize another name. So I asked my daughter, what would you want to call that voice? And she said, jerry. And I said, okay, so if Jerry were to come up and whisper in your ear, you're dumb, you can't do math, and oh, by the way, you're fat, what, what would you say to Jerry? And she said, I would say, shut up, Jerry. And so if I hear her struggling, doing homework, saying, oh, I can't do this, I will literally yell from my office, shut up, Jerry. Just to take her out of the moment and recognize it's only one thought. It's just a thought. That's all the power that inner critic has. It's a thought and you can get curious about it and explore it. But the most important thing, I think, in working with your inner critic is acknowledging it's always going to be there. John, your inner critic is always going to be alongside you, chirping away. You need to be able to recognize when it's talking and take away its ability to make decisions for you. You can explore the ideas, but your inner critic does not get to be a decision maker.

John R. Miles (40:48)

So I want to take you to a famous athlete. And I think we all have moments in our life, some larger than others, where we have to redefine how we're approaching life. And the story I want to talk about is Tiger Woods. Here you have a world class athlete who's on the top of his game, probably at the time, the most famous athlete in the entire world. Eyes all upon you, and then suddenly it breaks out about the rift between him and his wife at the time. And I remember talking to Sean Foley, his coach, about it. And Sean was telling me, here you got a guy who's an athlete, but he knows everywhere he goes, everyone he meets, he knows exactly what they're saying, he knows what they're saying behind his back, and all of that starts eroding your confidence, getting under your skin, etc. Now, I think any of us can face moments like that. How have you observed those who are elite be over, be able to get over moments like that happen?

Ann Marie Anderson (42:03)

I think that they are absolutely brilliant with not giving a vote to anyone who shouldn't have a voice. That's a saying from Laura Gassner Otting, who's a friend of mine and an author, and I love that phrase, because people want to talk behind your back. They want to criticize what you're doing and everything. They don't get to have a. They shouldn't have a voice in what you're doing, so you don't give them a vote. I think what I see with the elite athletes. I know what I see with the elite athletes, they're not even thinking about the person criticizing their performance or the way that they're doing, because that person isn't going where they're going. So they're especially astute at blocking out anything from someone who they don't give a vote to. They have very small circles, the elite athletes do in terms of who gets to have input on what they are doing. And it is a tiny circle. It's what I would call your front row, the people that you trust to give you feedback. Everybody else is out of the equation.

John R. Miles (43:09)

It reminds me, and I'm glad you brought that up because that's where I was hoping you would take it is I have this philosophy. I talk about my book called the Mosquito Audit. And what I'm really encouraging people to do is we have these invisible influences all around us. Some of them are the closest people we have in our lives. But you've got the invisible suffocators, the pain in the asses, the blood suckers, the different types of mosquitoes who might be in your front row and who might be completely negatively influencing everything that you're trying to achieve. So doing what I say is a mosquito audit on a regular basis, I think is extremely important. How would you respond to that?

Ann Marie Anderson (43:50)

Absolutely. The front row, by my definition, consists of the people that will push, challenge, uplift, tell you the truth about where you're going. And the front row maybe doesn't contain your mother or your best friend because they want you to be safe. Okay? They're the people who want you to be safe. They don't want you to be hurt. It's a great support system to have, but not necessarily your front row. And you will find once in A while you let somebody in, you start listening to someone's advice who really doesn't have your best interest or maybe has jealousy or competition. You pluck them out of your front row and you'll be able to know who's in your front row by this. We always talk about friendship as the person you would go to when things are really bad. Your front row consists of people that, that you would go to as well when things are great, when something big happens and you want to share it with the world and you're not going to tell everybody because people might get jealous or brag. Your front row are the people that you can call and say, this happened and I'm so excited about it, I wanted to share it with you. And your front row will say, heck yeah. The mosquitoes, the gnats, the people who don't even deserve to be in the room have to be weeded out of that garden.

John R. Miles (45:06)

And to me, the front row is also that group that helps you feel like you matter. They're those people who are bolstering your sense of belonging. And where I wanted to take this is you do a lot of keynotes into companies where they're dealing with pervasive disengagement. How does this front row equate to a company setting? And maybe why so many employees feel disengaged right now?

Ann Marie Anderson (45:37)

I'm so glad you asked that. And John, here it is. Nobody's ever asked me that. So great question. Right. We have a very increasingly individual society, right. Every people working from home. You can order things to your house. You can ask ChatGPT for some suggestions. We're able to be in our own bubble and it leads to what our surgeon general has called a loneliness epidemic. So if you take that into a corporate, corporate setting where you are separate, maybe not even working in the same space, you're going to get this kind of isolation by developing a front row of your trusted advisors, people who are challenging themselves. They don't even have to be going the same place you're going. They just have to be going somewhere trying to grow. You are able to give significance to them, right? Significance. They have a worth and a value for you. You hopefully are bringing a worth and a value for them, and it reconnects. So when you've got disengaged employees, it's because they don't have that connection to other people who they believe are also trying to better, trying to engage with themselves with. I mean, with each other. When you ask somebody, hey, John, I'm trying to Write a book. I know you've written books and I'm wondering if you would be in my front row if I can ask you some questions when you ask them, and I do use those words, front row. It gives them a place in your life and a connection. People take it very seriously. Once you tap them and say, I'm going to need your help with this. I can't do it alone. It's remarkable the investment people will have within corporation create corporations, creating those teams, allowing the best leaders, like Phil Jackson, for example, I think was an excellent coach. They weave individuality into a powerful group culture by creating systems within that allow for front rows.

John R. Miles (47:44)

And I think that's extremely important. And I don't think a lot of leaders know how to do it. So what would be if you're a leader? And maybe the best example I can give is I remember I went to Lowe's and I got hired into this position where I was trying to overhaul IT operations and our security function after the company had gone through the worst security hack in retail history at the time. And if that wasn't daunting enough, I get called into the head of HR's office my first week and she tells me that my group has the lowest employee engagement scores in the entire company, 350,000 employees. But what I quickly came to realize is that the employees, when they were thinking of their front row, their boss was the chief seat in that front row. And the boss that they had before didn't believe in them, didn't give them autonomy, didn't really and trust them, that they wanted their input on anything. And I just found in that situation, the more that I put myself in their shoes and looked at their capabilities from where they sat and allowed them to have a voice into how the organization should look going forward, it completely changed their willingness to want to invest in me and me reciprocal have the confidence to invest more in them. But I think a lot of people don't know how to do it well.

Ann Marie Anderson (49:19)

That's brilliant by you. And it's about again giving them significance. So these employees went their former supervisor didn't have really worth as I'm listening to you because their ideas weren't valued. And so it's about letting them know, here's some ideas that I have. I want your individual strengths. You have a different strength than you have and you have a different strength. And I want to hear all of it so that we are building upon each other. Employees have to, our employers have to create a space to be able to have A yes. And like an improvisational attitude where your ideas are welcome no matter how outlandish they are. Because even though we may not use that idea specifically specifically, it may lead us as a team to something else more innovative. That innovation happens in groups. Innovation does not happen no matter what people say on chat GPT when you're alone, innovation happens when you're talking with other people about ideas. And yes, you can get some help from AI, but the innovation is the back and forth of ideas. And as somebody who has a staff underneath them or people that they are overseeing, you have to welcome their ideas and make it open.

John R. Miles (50:40)

On Emory, one of the last areas I wanted to go into with you is I often talk about the importance of the power of choices in our life because I think we tend to gravitate towards the bigger choices we make instead of realizing that it's really the microchoices that make up the hours, the moments of our days that influence us the most. And you emphasize in the book that life doesn't happen to you, but for you. When you live audaciously. How can shifting to this perspective empower people to make more intentional choices?

Ann Marie Anderson (51:21)

So audacity in my mind has three components to it. The first is mindset, which really, John, is just about optimism, believing that you're going to be okay no matter what happens, you will survive that outcome. The second is audacious action. It's behavior. You have to do something. You can sit around and be optimistic all the time. When people start to take an action, no matter how small, they take control, whether they're saying no to something, whether they are carving out time to look for a mentor, to ask questions, and when you combine those two together, the mindset and the action, consistently, the optimism that we're going to try this and if it doesn't work out the way I want to, I'm going to survive it. I'm going to learn something. And here's the action again and again, you start to build an audacious identity. When you have an audacious identity, one bold risk leads to another, leads to another, because you feel a freedom to try new things, because you are comforted knowing you'll be able to deal with the outcome. I think that's the most important place for people to start when they're building an audacious life.

John R. Miles (52:32)

Thank you for sharing that. And I wanted to end on one of the sections from the part three of your book, which is the idea of what is your parachute? Because you explain in here that taking a bold Risk is undoubtedly a leap of faith. Before anyone takes a scary jump out of a plane, they have to have a parachute of plans to mitigate the risks. How does this idea or metaphor of the parachute play into us living audaciously?

Ann Marie Anderson (53:02)

It's about all that planning. You talked about preparation earlier, what we were talking about. That's it. It's not just your front row. It's making sure that you have the finances set up so that you're not making a reckless risk. That's very important. It's about going through time as one of the barriers, the urgency fallacy. And listing things that are urgent and things that are important because important leads you closer to your values and visions and making time for what's important instead of getting caught just on urgency. It's about money, which is another barrier, and recognizing that sometimes you're going to have to spend some money to get some energy back, maybe have somebody do some things that you don't enjoy doing so that you can continue your audacious dream. You don't just jump saying, here's what I want to do, and so let's throw caution to the wind. You have these systems in place along with your front row, so you have checks and balances, really, for lack of a better term, to help you stay on the path. Instead of one reckless swing of the bat, you. You have many different options in terms of trying again and again as you figure out the best way to get where you want to go.

John R. Miles (54:15)

Okay. And then the last thing I wanted to ask you about was hope. Interestingly enough, the most popular article I've ever written was why the World Needs Hope. And in the book you write, hope is not a plan. And you're not a big fan of hope. And you say, I've always been annoyed by the question, what is plan B like? Plan A is to write the book. But if that doesn't work out, then plan B is to do what? Hope is not a plan. If you want to plan. If you want to hope for plan A but have a Plan B in your back pocket, then you might as well skip plan A together. Yeah, I think so many people put these safety nets in place, and I know I did for a long time. And the more I thought I had something I could fall back on, the more it was keeping me from pursuing what I truly wanted to do. And I think that's what you're saying here.

Ann Marie Anderson (55:10)

Absolutely. That's exactly it. Look, plan B is easier. It's always easier. Just keep amending. Plan A is what I did throughout my career. Just hey, if this isn't working, I'll make an amendment here or there, but we're always going to default to what's easier. And if here's the problem with Plan B, it wasn't what you wanted to do anyway. It's your second choice. So you're really not going to be that fulfilled doing Plan B. So that's why I keep saying just.

John R. Miles (55:39)

Amend Plan A. Anne Marie, it was so wonderful to have you here. Congratulations on your book Cultivating Audacity. Highly encourage the listeners to go out and pick up a copy. Where can people learn more about you?

Ann Marie Anderson (55:54)

Thanks so much for having me on, John. My website, annmarieanderson.com will tell you a lot of what you might need, especially if somebody wants to hire me to come speak at a keynote. The book Cultivating Audacity is available wherever you buy your books, Amazon, Target, Barnes and Noble. And you can always find me on Instagram as well at annmarieandersontv or Cultivating Audacity.

John R. Miles (56:18)

Annmarie, thank you so much for joining us and for getting up at way early in the morning to do this. I really appreciate it.

Ann Marie Anderson (56:25)

Thanks for having me. I enjoyed talking with you.

John R. Miles (56:27)

John and that's a wrap. What an incredible conversation with Ann Marie Anderson. Her insights on Cultivating Audacity, dismantling doubt, and taking bold risks remind us that courage isn't just about fearlessness, it's about stepping forward even when uncertainty looms. From the lessons she's learned from covering legendary athletes to the strategies she shares for overcoming rejection and embracing challenges, Ann Marie has given us a power, powerful roadmap for living with intention and confidence. As we wrap up today's episode, I invite you to reflect on a few key takeaways. Where in your life are you playing it safe when you could be taking a bold step forward? How can you reframe rejection as a stepping stone rather than a setback? And what's one action you can take today to cultivate Audacity in your own journey? If today's discussion resonated with you, please take a moment to leave a five star rating and review. It's one of the best ways to support the show and help us bring impactful conversations like this one to even more people. And if someone in your life could benefit from Ann Marie's wisdom, share this episode with them. Because a single conversation can change everything. For all the resources we discussed, including her book Cultivating Audacity, visit the show notes@passionstalk.com and if you want to go deeper? Be sure to watch the video version of this episode on our YouTube channels, where you'll find more enriching conversations like this one. While you're there, hit subscribe and join our growing community. Coming up next, I'm joined by Olympic gold medalist and figure skating champion Vincent Joe. Vincent made history as the first person to land a quadruple lutz in the Olympic competition, but his story goes far beyond the ice. We'll be diving into his journey of resilience, the challenges of elite competition, and how he's using his platform to advocate for mental health, leadership and clean sport. You won't want to miss it.

Vincent Joe (58:12)

I just remember the feeling of stepping on the ice and not knowing what I was doing there. And that's a really scary feeling because when you've been passion struck your whole life and all of a sudden you step into the familiar arena but you feel nothing. You feel nothing. It's terrifying. It feels like you question everything. You don't know what's happening. You don't know why it's happening. You realize it's probably up here, but you start trying to find physical reasons to turn it around because that's something you can tangibly change in the moment. But at the end of the day, that's the wrong reason. So you end up seeding more doubt and more doubt into your mind. It's just a negative spiral.

John R. Miles (58:52)

And remember, the fee for the show is simple. If you found value in today's episode, share it with someone who needs to hear it. And most importantly, take what you've learned and put it into action. Because knowledge, knowledge alone doesn't create change. But action does. Until next time, live life. Passion struck. Hey Fidelity, what's it cost to invest with the Fidelity app?

Ann Marie Anderson (59:25)

Start with as little as $1 with no account fees or trade commissions on U.S. stocks and ETFs. Hmm. That's music to my ears. I can only talk Investing Involved Risk.

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