Passion Struck with John R. Miles

Episode 659: Caroline Fleck on Why Validation Fuels Our Sense of Mattering
Release Date: September 4, 2025

Brief Overview

In this emotionally compelling episode, award-winning host John R. Miles sits down with Dr. Caroline Fleck—clinical psychologist, founder of the Luma Mental Health Initiative, and author of the new book Validation—to explore why feeling validated is fundamental to our sense of mattering, self-worth, and resilience. Together, they examine how internalized invalidation shapes our lives, the difference between praise and true validation, practical steps for self-and-other validation, and why small acts of service can be powerfully healing. Fleck shares her lived experience with severe depression, cancer, and MS, while also providing research-backed strategies for listeners struggling with chronic anxiety, perfectionism, and an inner sense of "unmattering."

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Backstory & The Seeds of Suffering

• [05:40-07:14] Dr. Fleck discusses her multifaceted identity (psychologist, author, cancer survivor) and her surprising formative years as a competitive baton twirler, sharing how discipline and intention grew from early suffering.
• [07:14-09:00] She describes the duality of her outward, extroverted persona and the hidden, “constantly running from herself” reality of inner suffering.
  • “I see a lot of suffering. I see a lot of loneliness, and then I see a lot of intention...so many of those positive qualities grew out of that suffering.” — Dr. Caroline Fleck [07:14]

2. The Absorption Gap: When Self-Improvement Backfires

• [09:00-11:19] John describes “the absorption gap”—a feeling of doing “all the right things” for well-being but not reaping benefits, which resonates with Fleck’s behavioral science background.

  • “I needed the just being in order for any of that change to actually seep in.” — Dr. Caroline Fleck [10:10]

• [11:19-12:36] The “stuck points” of trauma and emotional blockages: trapped trauma can block all other improvements until it’s faced.

3. Origins and Impact of Invalidation

• [13:23-16:41] Dr. Fleck traces the origins of her self-invalidation to high school, describing societal and familial reactions (“you’re crazy, you’re needy”) that led her to hide and berate her emotional pain.

• [16:41-19:01] She addresses the myth that we shouldn’t seek validation from others and explains why “validation” is not the same as praise or dependence.

  • “By validation, we mean communication that one is seen, understood and accepted for who they are. … We learn how to validate ourselves through validation from others.” — Dr. Caroline Fleck [16:41]

4. Validation Crisis & The Deeper Roots of Depression

• [19:01-19:55] Social isolation and lack of validation (“mattering”) are core to rising rates of mental health issues, especially in today’s hyperconnected but emotionally distant, online-centric world.

• [26:59-28:25] Fleck makes a crucial distinction between praise (conditional and judgmental) and validation (acceptance for who you are, unconditionally):

  • “What kids … are typically getting through social media is at best praise. … That is fundamentally different from validation. Validation says, I accept you independent of how you look or perform.” — Dr. Caroline Fleck [26:59]

5. Validation, Love, and Building Real Relationships

• [28:25-29:55] Validation is a prerequisite for true love and deep connection, not just a byproduct:
  • “If they accepted me, my God, how much deeper that love would have felt…that’s the connection.” — Dr. Caroline Fleck [28:39]

6. Practical Skills: Learning to Validate (Self and Others)

• [30:16-32:22] Dr. Fleck introduces the “eight skills” of validation (from DBT), built on three core ingredients:

  • Mindful, non-judgmental attention
  • Logical understanding
  • Emotional empathy

• “If I’m going to validate somebody, I need to ideally communicate all of that. … But at the very least, I need to signal just one of those qualities.” — Dr. Caroline Fleck [31:47]

7. Moments of Transformation: Using Suffering to Serve

• [32:22-36:21] Fleck’s turning point: being challenged by DBT founder Marsha Linehan not to let her MS diagnosis derail her career, but rather to use her suffering as a source of connection and service.

  • “She was invalidating my assessment of the situation while simultaneously validating my capabilities. Only she could pull that off.” — Dr. Caroline Fleck [35:06]

8. Reframing Suffering Through Service and Connection

• [39:57-43:13] Fleck and Miles share stories illustrating how pouring into others—whether patients, children, or even shelter animals—transforms suffering into meaning and propels personal healing.

  • “All I saw ahead of me was black if [I couldn’t work]. I could not imagine how I was going to go through this experience if I wasn’t working with other people and helping them...I just immediately would try and find ways to reduce suffering.” — Dr. Caroline Fleck [40:46]

9. Small Acts, Big Change: Behavioral Activation

• [45:36-47:17] Even small efforts (watering a plant, making someone smile) can break the cycle of inward-turned pain. Behavioral activation: doing, not just thinking, is a path out of suffering.

  • “Just take the focus off of you and your pain because otherwise that pain is going to run the show. … You need to stop feeding it with attention.” — Dr. Caroline Fleck [48:09]

10. Communicating Validation in Everyday Life

• [49:50-53:49] Practically, the quickest way to validate someone in conversation:

  • Listen with the intention to truly understand their point—rather than plan a response or rebuttal.

  • Play an internal “game” of articulating the best possible version of their point to yourself.

  • “Try and figure out: what’s this person’s point and why does it matter?” — Dr. Caroline Fleck [52:05]

11. Leadership and Validation

• [53:49-61:29] Stories from politics, military, and business illustrate the difference between leaders who go through the motions (Bill Clinton anecdote) and those who truly see and validate others (Colin Powell, Larry Stone at Lowe’s).

  • “The client, the patient is the expert of their experience and you must show deference and respect to that.” — Dr. Caroline Fleck [60:06]

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “You’re only as sick as your secrets.” — Dr. Caroline Fleck [12:36]
• “We are so focused on our goal, and you gotta just flip that on its head.” — Dr. Caroline Fleck [55:53]
• “It is what gets you out of your bed. … If you can just make one person smile … that’s what we call behavioral activation. … This isn’t just fluff. This is survival.” — Dr. Caroline Fleck [48:09]
• “I want [readers] to feel validated…see that some of the hurt … has come out of feeling not seen…and now they can understand that.” — Dr. Caroline Fleck [61:39]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [05:51-07:14] — Caroline’s self-reflection: suffering, purpose, and love out of pain
• [10:10] — The “absorption gap” concept and need for acceptance alongside change
• [13:23-16:41] — How internalized messages of invalidation take root; healing begins
• [19:55-21:36] — The dangers of social isolation and lessons from group psychology
• [26:59-28:25] — The praise vs. validation distinction (social media’s empty promise)
• [30:16-32:22] — Eight skills of validation, the science behind them
• [35:05] — Marsha Linehan’s pivotal challenge: use your suffering as a tool for connection
• [40:46-43:13] — Service as survival: fostering kittens during chemo
• [45:36-48:09] — Behavioral activation for depression and suffering
• [52:05] — Quick conversational validation trick: restate and improve their point
• [55:37] — The difference between genuine presence and going through the motions
• [60:06] — Humility in leadership; how the best leaders validate and coach

Actionable Takeaways

• Routinely practice self-validation: Use mindful awareness, logical understanding, and self-empathy on yourself—like you would with someone else in pain.
• In conversation, focus on understanding before responding: Seek to restate or even clarify the other person’s point.
• Serve others, even in tiny ways: Service pulls attention away from overwhelming personal pain; even very small acts help.
• Don’t mistake praise for validation: Raise your awareness of the difference, especially in social media interactions.
• Intentional connection matters: Both leaders and loved ones are experienced as healing when they offer true, unfiltered attention and acceptance.

Further Resources

• Dr. Caroline Fleck’s Book: Validation: How the Skill Set that Revolutionized Psychology Will Transform Your Relationships, Increase Your Influence, and Change Your Life
• Website: drcarolinefleck.com
• Instagram/TikTok: @DrCarolineFleck

*“When we learn to listen with curiosity instead of judgment, our most fraught emotions can become tools for resilience, clarity, and growth.” — John R. Miles [63:02]

For more transformative conversations, subscribe to Passion Struck or visit John’s Substack at theignitedlife.net.