← Passion Struck with John R. Miles
Passion Struck with John R. Miles
Dr. Deborah Egerton on How to Read Your Enneagram Chart EP 512
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- [00:03]
John R. Miles
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- [01:02]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Struck I'm going to share something with you, John, that I don't talk about very often, but I think it's important. Even though I wasn't always treated as if I belonged, I knew I belonged. I knew that people who were treating me differently, people who were, and I use the term othering me or trying to push me to the margins of society, that there wasn't anything wrong with me, that they actually had a challenge that they needed to work on, that there was something in them that made it okay to try to treat another person as less than. And my work and my teaching around belonging really goes right to the core of you have to know within yourself that you belong on this earth, that you belong in the places that you choose to show up, and that people who want to push you away, that's work that they need to be doing.
- [02:13]
John R. Miles
Welcome to Passion Struck. Hi, I'm your host John R. Miles, and on the show we decipher the secrets, tips and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries and athletes. Now let's go out there and become Passion Struck. Hey, Passion Struck fam. I am absolutely fired up to welcome you back for episode 512 of the Passion Struck podcast. You. Yes, you are the heartbeat of this movement and I can't thank you enough for showing up week after week ready to ignite purpose and live with intentional action. Your energy, passion and commitment are what makes this community so powerful and unstoppable. If this is your first time tuning in, welcome to the Passion Struck Family. You've just joined a tribe that's all about transforming your life, growing through challenges, and living boldly. We're thrilled to have you here on this journey with us. For those of you who want to dive even deeper into your personal growth, make sure to sign up for my Live Intentionally newsletter. Each week I send out exclusive insights, practical exercises and tools to help you apply the lessons from the podcast to your own life. Head over to passionstruck.com and start living intentionally. And if you want to spread the love and we'd love it when you do, we've made it super easy with our Episode Starter packs. With over 500 episodes, it can be overwhelming to know where to begin, so we've curated playlists just for you. Whether you're into behavioral science, mental health, psychology, leadership, astronaut stories, or hearing from inspiring women breaking barriers, there's something for everyone. Check them out on Spotify or visit passionstruck.com Starterpacks to dive in Now. Earlier this week I had an incredible conversation with Dr. Michael Gervais, one of the world's leading experts on high performance and mindset mastery. We talked about his new book, the First Rule of Mastery Stop worrying about what people think of you and how the fear of others opinions holds us back. If you haven't checked that episode out, I highly recommend it. Dr. Gervais shared some groundbreaking insights that can help you take control of your mindset and live life on your terms. And that brings us to today's episode. We have the privilege of diving into the intricate world of of the Enneagram with none other than Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton, or as many affectionately call her, Dr. E. Dr. E is an internationally respected psychotherapist, a certified Enneagram teacher, and a pioneer in the field of inclusion, diversity, equity and anti racism, which she calls idea. As the founder and president of Trinity Transition Consultants, Dr. E has spent over two decades helping individuals and organizations break free from limiting beliefs and historical narratives to embrace a more compassionate, connected way of living. Her work goes far beyond traditional DEI methods, empowering people to honor every part of their unique self identification. In this episode, we'll be exploring her latest book, Enneagram Made Easy, where she masterfully unpacks the Enneagram's nine distinct personality the idealist, helper, achiever, individualist, investigator, loyalist, enthusiast, challenger, and peacemaker. Dr. Yi will guide us through how this powerful system can be used as a transformative tool for personal growth, personality conflict resolution, and enhancing emotional intelligence. Dr. E's passion for helping others understand and respect the humanity in all of us is truly inspiring. Whether you're new to the Enneagram or have been exploring it for years, this conversation promises to offer fresh insights and practical wisdom to help you on your journey. And before we dive in, I just wanted to say thank you. Your ratings, reviews and support mean the world to us. If today's episode resonates with you, we'd love for you to give us a five star review and share it with your friends and family. All it takes is one simple share. Your support helps us reach more people and bring on incredible guests like Dr. E. Now let's dive into this transformative conversation with Dr. Deborah Egerton. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now let that journey begin. Hey Passion Struck fam. The perfect vacation includes a lot of adventure and even more R and R. And let me tell you, Texas has it all. Whether you're wanting to experience the natural beauty of an iconic state park or relax on the beautiful beaches of the coastline, the Lone Star State welcomes you to enjoy the unique experiences you can only find in Texas. When hunger strikes, savor some world famous barbecue or treat yourself to exceptional fine dining across the state. No matter your craving, it's waiting for you. In Texas. There's always a dance floor or live music venue just ready to be discovered. The nightlife in Texas is always an exciting time. And what's a trip to Texas without taking in the vibrant art scene or horseback riding across sprawling ranches to bring out your inner cowboy? Texas isn't just a destination, it's a one of a kind experience and it's calling you. So let's pack our bags and get going. Visit traveltexas.com and start planning your trip today. Let's Texas As a loyal listener of this show, you're always challenging yourself to grow, to be better, to keep learning. And Southern New Hampshire University can help. Southern New Hampshire University offers over 200 career focused degree programs online, plus Southern New Hampshire University has some of the lowest online tuition rates in the United States. So balancing school, work and life actually feels achievable and affordable, too. Find your degree at snhu. Edu Passion. That's Snhu. Edu Passion. Try angel stuff for your tushy. It's made by Angels Soft and Strong Budget for. I need. The choice is simple. Pick up a pack today.
- [08:26]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
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- [08:33]
John R. Miles
I am so honored today to welcome Deborah Fredgill Egerton. Welcome, Dr. E. How are you today?
- [08:40]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
I'm very well, thank you.
- [08:41]
John R. Miles
I guess I want to start off by asking, how did you get the name Dr. E? Obviously it's in your last name, but was there a moment that gravitated towards that?
- [08:51]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Well, it's interesting, and no one's asked me that question before, but my husband is also Dr. Egerton, and when we would work together, he was a military physician. And then he retired and went into civilian practice as well. But what I can tell you is that we spent a lot of time in his years in the military. When we go from place to place as a psychotherapist, I would end up working with young people in the high school or in his adolescent medicine clinic. And it would be Dr. Egerton. And they would call me Missy. A lot of people thought that my name was Missy. And then we had a gathering one day and it was like, my wife's name is not Missy. And someone said, oh, this is the other Dr. E. And so it caught on from there. And I've been called Dr. Me from that day. And the funny thing is, my last name is Egerton. My, of course, work of focus is the Enneagram. So it just seems to fit and it stuck. So that's how it came to be.
- [10:00]
John R. Miles
And today I'm going to be asking you a whole lot about your book, which we'll get into a little bit later. It's called Enneagram Made Easy. I always like to start these episodes out by getting the audience to get to know you better. And as I was doing research on you, it seemed like kindness in general was something that kept coming up about you and how we need more kindness in the world. And so I thought I'd ask you a question along those lines. What's the kindest thing a stranger has ever done for you?
- [10:31]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
I love that. The kindest thing a stranger has ever done for me was really to. It had to do with one of my children. And there was a. An incident where one of my children was being Bullied, I wasn't there, and this person didn't know me and didn't know my child. But at the same time, they stepped in and said, enough is enough, and then brought my child home. And I didn't know the person. I had never met them before. And after that, of course, we became friends. It landed in my heart in a way where I recognized that I would have done the same thing. I wouldn't stand there and allow another child to be bullied. But for someone to actually do it for my child, it just was priceless. And it really goes back to what you were talking about, the kindness thing. Some people call me the kindness coach because I feel like if we just do things with a spirit of kindness and we always remember, is it a kind thing to do? Then we would just have a much better world to live in.
- [11:54]
John R. Miles
I couldn't agree more with you. And my audience is probably sick of me bringing up this example, but do you know who Dacker Keltner is? He's a professor at UC Berkeley.
- [12:04]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Yes, I do.
- [12:05]
John R. Miles
Well, I just constantly reference his work on compassion and awe because I think his whole concept of moral beauty and the fact that when we experience or give moral beauty of ourselves, which is really kindness, it fosters more awe for us than anything else does, which I think is such an important thing for people to understand is the more you give, the happier and more fulfilled you're going to feel.
- [12:32]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
It's so true. I could not agree with you or his work even more because we have a lot of divisions in the world. And those divisions would not be as severe and harsh and hurtful as they are if people knew how to embody kindness. Many people think that they're kind or that they're being kind, and yet they never take the time to really look at the way they treat people. And it matters the way you treat people, the way you show up in someone's life, it can make all the difference in the world. And that can be a passing stranger. So kindness is actually. I call it kinetic kindness, kindness in action. We all need to be able to practice that.
- [13:24]
John R. Miles
Well, just like visualization without action really doesn't do anything. So kindness, just thinking about it, without performing it is the same thing. So I really love that. Along these same lines, I was going to ask you another question, but I'm going to ask it differently. The question I was going to ask you was, what's a little thing someone did for you that stayed with you forever? But I'm going to tailor this to you. You Wrote a really moving tribute to a dear friend of yours who passed away named Norm Mineta. I wanted to ask this through the lens of him. What's something that Norm did for you or things that created such an impact and stayed with you forever?
- [14:09]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
There are so many things that Norm did that will stay with me forever. And the best way to explain it is that to be in the presence of Norm and his wife, Denny, was to be in the presence of authenticity. Norm never tried to be someone that he wasn't. He was just Norm. And his kindness and compassion and empathy for humanity was just incredible. People talk about politicians and how they feel about politicians, and what I can very easily say is that Norm was the person that showed me that you can step into a position of power and you can actually do it from a place of maintaining your moral integrity, of maintaining your authentic self. And he was just one of the kindest humans I have ever known. Denny and I were actually friends before she and Norm married. So I have a over 50 year relationship with her. And I was so happy when the two of them were married because they were such a good fit in terms of empathy and kindness. But the personal things that Norm would do, he remembered birthdays. He knew that I do a lot of work in terms of social justice. And he would always take the time to sit and talk to me and just explain through his lens what he thought were ways to bring people together. And because the relationship was personal, I had access to his energy, his words, his wisdom, his guidance for so many years. And I. It's hard to talk about him. I miss him. I consider him to be one of those people that's on my spiritual board of directors up above. But this was a man that cared about all of humanity, not just his political party or his friends or his cultural ethnic group. He cared about everyone, and he demonstrated that every single day of his life. I give him a lot of credit for being shoulders that I could stand on and also arms that I could run into and get a Norm hug, just because he knew the work was hard. And we didn't even have to speak. We didn't have to say anything. He would just be there for me. That's a very heartfelt, just thing to talk about for me.
- [17:12]
John R. Miles
Well, thank you so much for sharing it. I thought I would honor him since she wrote such a moving tribute to him. I did want to ask. He often called you Cleopatra. How did that come about?
- [17:24]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Oh, my God. You did read everything, didn't you? Okay. His wife, Denny, we have a long History together, as I said. And we were friends before Denny and Norm married. But once they married, Denny used to laugh all the time. And she would say, whoever said blondes have more fun didn't have a black girl as a best friend. And we would do different things together. And Norm would just watch us going back and forth. And one day Denny was saying something like, darn it, Deborah, you're gonna talk me into doing this thing again. And Norm just said, well, of course she is. You need to treat her as the queen that she is. This is Cleopatra, Denny. This is not just any ordinary person. From that day on, he would call me Cleopatra. And it was just so funny. And of course, I played Cleopatra in high school Play in a benefit performance for the naacp. And Cleopatra had a handmaid by the name of Fatatita. So I began to call Danny Fatatita. And we just would have so much.
- [18:42]
John R. Miles
I feel like Paul Harvey. And now we know the rest of the story.
- [18:45]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Exactly. Exactly.
- [18:49]
John R. Miles
Well, I had one or two more questions for you before we dive into the book. Your mission is deeply rooted in the healing of humanity and fostering a sense of belonging, which is at the core of what we're trying to do here as well at Passion Struck. Because, similar to your husband, I was in the military myself. And between my military service and my civilian service, I've been to pretty much 45, 46 countries. And what I have seen globally is that it's not just in the US that things are awry right now. It's really globally things are awry. And I got this calling to do. Passion Struck. But through the lens of the calling I initially heard was that I was supposed to be serving the lonely, beaten, bored, battered, broken, etcetera, of the world. And I started to really dive into that. Like, what does that really mean? Are those symptoms? Or what's at the core of this? And after I researched this for a few years, I really came to believe that the core of what's causing these things to happen and people to feel this way is a sense of unmattering, which I think is happening everywhere. Like, we just feel like we don't belong, like we're losing our sense of humanity. In a similar vein, are there personal experiences that drove you to commit so fully to this cause?
- [20:24]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Well, this is going to take a little time to explain. Explain. But I feel like this is the place to do it. I also received a calling to do this work. I cannot say that is something that I, you know, sat down and actively chose and decided this is what I'm going to do with my life. When I first started my company, Trinity Transition Consultants, I actually had a little whisper that said, start a company and call it Trinity. And I did that, but I didn't really know what Trinity was going to do. And a few days later I got a call to do some team building and it just went on from there. And I've had the company for 28 years now. I've never done any marketing for work, but the work always comes. What happened for me, and if you, I know you have read my books. That very first incident that occurred when I was 4 or 5 years old in the airport in Alabama, where my mother sort of tried to act like my nanny so that I could go to the white restroom and not the colored restroom. And I saw how that just hijacked, robbed her dignity. That landed with me in a very powerful way because my mother was a force to be reckoned with. And I had never seen her lower her head. She wasn't an arrogant woman, but she was a proud woman and she had a tremendous amount of integrity and carriage. She carried herself as a person who knew she belonged because she had that sense of self in a good way. And God bless her, she passed that on to us, to her children. As I grew, I had a modeling career that started in my childhood. I was often treated differently. But I'm going to share something with you, John, that I don't talk about very often, but I think it's important. Even though I wasn't always treated as if I belonged, I knew I belonged. I knew that people who were treating me differently, people who were, and I use the term, othering me or trying to push me to the margins of society, that there wasn't anything wrong with me, that they actually had a challenge that they needed to work on, that there was something in them that made it okay to try to treat another person as less than. And my work and my teaching around belonging really goes right to the core of you have to know within yourself that you belong on this earth, that you belong in the places that you choose to show up, and that people who want to push you away, that's work that they need to be doing. Whenever someone tries to treat someone as an object or as less than human, then don't let that stop you from being who you are. It's like I always say, sometimes you have to have a little bit of a Teflon soul, as opposed to a Velcro soul. Don't let someone else's biases someone else's left, lack of love, someone else's wounds bleed out all over you. I think that's so important. And in addition to that, part of the challenge around othering and the thing that I'm called to in terms of trying to bring people in from the margins and helping people to develop that sense of belonging has to do with the challenge of tolerance. And I try to speak about this whenever I can. Tolerance is supposed to be a good thing and it is a good first step. But tolerance is not inclusion. It is not acceptance. It is not belonging. And I believe that from a societal perspective, we got stuck at tolerance. If someone is different from the majority culture, what happens? You learn to tolerate them. You tolerate them in the workplace, you tolerate them at school. Tolerating means maybe live and let live. That's the best you can do. That will never create the deep sense of belonging that we need to have in order for humanity to be healthy and for all of us to be able to elevate our consciousness to a level where we can truly embrace each other and treat each other with love, kindness, acceptance, empathy, compassion. I've been asked so many times, how can you believe in a God who lets children starve to death? And my response to that is always the same. It is not God who lets children starve to death. It's us. So there's a lot of work that we have to do. But like you, I was called to it. And I try to do it with a loving heart and a cheerful spirit and not to ever go to that place of not recognizing that no matter how you may choose to treat me, I belong. And someday, maybe that person that thinks that I don't, they'll get a clue.
- [26:37]
John R. Miles
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- [26:41]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
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- [26:45]
John R. Miles
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- [26:47]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
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- [27:02]
John R. Miles
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- [27:04]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
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- [27:09]
John R. Miles
Doctor that was really beautiful and the way you described it. As if belonging is really about ensuring that you're living in alignment with the ideals that you have and the values that you cherish. Passion struck. The podcast is really all about intentional living. And what I was hearing you describe really means being intentional about how you want to live your life, to serve so that you feel you belong. How do you personally define intentionality?
- [27:44]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
For me, intentionality is learning to take the time to pause. You know, we. We live in A world where we tend to be more reactive than responsive. And in order to be responsive, rather than speeding it up, we actually have to slow it down. Every morning when I wake up, one of the things that I do, I sit on the side of the bed and I will mentally count backwards from 100 to 0 just to set level, set my brain in a space that says, okay, I'm getting ready to function today. And then I will read something motivational. I'll say a prayer for me, I will ask for, where do you want me to be? What do you want me to do? And give me what I need to do it. For me, it is structuring every day of my life to move intentionally, not to move, not to, to or from a reactive state of being, an agitated state, a state where I feel like I don't have enough time to do what I need to do, where I'm rushing, where I'm shortcutting, the precious moments of each day. I look at my husband and I tell him that I love him. And I make sure that I intentionally tell him that many times. Every day. I look at whoever I may be working with and I give them my full attention, which we call presence. Not divided, not thinking about what I need to order for dinner or am I packed for that next trip. Intentionality in that way for me is whenever and whoever I am with, I am 100% there with that person. And if I am somewhere alone, let's say it's just a grocery store, it's just paying attention to who crosses my path, because I truly believe that a person who crosses my path crosses my path for a reason. I make choices all the time around when I see an unhoused person. And often I. I just have to smile at this. It's very often that I will order a meal and it's more than I know I can eat, and I'll ask for half of it to be boxed up. And I know before I get home that I'm going to pass by an unhoused person and I'm going to be able to give them that food. So it is setting an actual state of being within myself where my words, my actions, my decisions, my responses are intentional. And when they're not, the blowback for me is pretty harsh because I'll recognize you know better than that. But I'm human. I fall into that space where sometimes I just react to something. And if you live intentionally, when you have those periods of time, when you come out of that intentionality, it doesn't feel Good. So it's for me, making living intentionally on purpose, making that your norm, rather than having it just be an occasional part of the way you show up.
- [31:32]
John R. Miles
What I'm hearing you say is really this profound connection that you formed to every facet of your life. And what enables you to do that is your intentionality. Absolutely. The flip side of this is those people that you encounter randomly. I think there are more and more people out there who are struggling to find their place in today's world. What would be your advice to someone on the show today who may be one of them, who feels stuck, who doesn't feel like they're intentional about anything in their life, what's one thing they can do today to move them closer to feeling like they do belong?
- [32:16]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
I think the most important thing that anyone can do is to really go inside and not look for the solutions externally, but to do the work internally. When people are stuck and struggling, sometimes it's because they have not asked this simple question, what do I really want? Often people are living in a place of survival, just survival. And when that is your everyday existence, it almost feels like a luxury to ask yourself, what do I really want? What that means is not what do you really want materially, but what do you really want inside of your being? I want this to be a very down to earth answer because I know that people do struggle, and part of why we struggle is because we don't even know how we want to be treated. We allow other people to project their stuff onto us and as a result we suffer. Sometimes when you take the time and you ask yourself, what do I really want? And maybe the response that comes up for you is, I want peace, then the next question is, how do I move closer to peace? And then you look at what it would take in order for you to be in a more peaceful state. And if you can get to that may mean looking at the circle of people that you've allowed to be around your heart. And maybe some, some of those people are not helping, but they're hurting you. And so learning how to actually protect yourself in a way where you're surrounded more by love and support and less by people who are maybe abusive or people who are so caught up in their own drama that they have no time for you, that they don't see you. Most of us just simply want to be seen and heard and respected. But in order to be seen, heard and respected, you have to begin with respecting yourself, knowing who you are and knowing what you want. Our life here on this Planet is a journey home. It's a journey back to becoming the authentic, pure and innocent beings that we were created to be. But it doesn't just happen, you know, you don't just wake up one morning and, okay, today's the day that I become my authentic self. No, it takes work. And it is the best use of. Of your energy that you will ever put out. If you stop and think about all the energy that you put into trying to make someone else different, if you pull that energy back and brought it into yourself, learned how to love yourself, learned how to really know what you want, being able to move through the earth in the way that you want to, to truly be, then you've hit the lotto. You can stop spending your money on lottery tickets because coming home to who you truly are will bring you more peace, love, and satisfaction than anything else. And then you can get unstuck.
- [36:18]
John R. Miles
Man, what a powerful answer. And I wanted to give you this opportunity to maybe explain how this connects with your. I think it's called your authentic self Journal Club that you started.
- [36:33]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Yes, I started the Journal Club because, as you could hear, I speak very passionately about embracing your authentic self. My heart literally hurts when I see people trying to be someone that they're not. And as I say frequently, don't try to be someone else. It's going to fit you like a cheap polyester suit. It's going to make you sweat and stink, and you're going to just need to take it off anyway. Don't waste your time on creating all these different versions of yourself. Do the work of mining your inner landscape to find who you truly are. And so often people would say to me, but how do I do that? And that's when I realized, I love the Enneagram. I teach the Enneagram. And I thought about even. How did I even get to this place of being so intentional, about wanting to live an authentic life and to be authentically who I am? And I remember that it started with my journaling. I have journals from so many years back. I laugh. I often say that I believe that when I transition on, the thing that my children may fight over will be my journals. So I purposefully do not. I don't number them. I don't put the years on them so that they can each have some and they can pass them back and forth among each other and not fight about who's going to get what first. But the journaling and the Journal Club is where I bring you together in community to learn how to take that deep dive, it's a great thing to tell people that you need to do your inner work. But what is inner work? And inner work is going down into your own being and finding out what's there. And as Father Richard Rohr always says, and when you find it coming back up and being, taking responsibility for all of it, we have to be brave enough to tap into the things that may be inside of us that we've not given voice to, that we've not acknowledged, that we have maybe suppressed over time. And I will say this. In the journaling process, some things may come up, but we are designed for things not to be remembered before we're ready to deal with them. And so if something comes up and you're not ready to deal with it, then you leave it be until you are. But trying to do inner work all by yourself is not only difficult, but it is not as fruitful, it's not as productive, because then you're working in a bubble. You can write down your thoughts, but if you have no one to be able to ask questions or to mirror and reflect back certain things that you cannot see for yourself, not to be able to have people that will help you gain line of sight to some things that you may be missing, then you're doing this work in a bubble. And that's not as useful as it is to do some of this work in community. So I wanted to create a community, and I call this my evergreen creation. I want that community to always be there so that people can actually come in, they can talk to each other, they can listen every month to how I advise them to look at, how to approach a particular journal prompt and how to go on that deep dive and to try to keep them safe and in community while they're doing this work.
- [40:52]
John R. Miles
And where's the best place that people can go to find and join that club?
- [40:57]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
The best way to find and join it is to go to my website, which is Deborah, spelled the biblical way, D E B O r a h egerton.com and everything you ever wanted to know about me and maybe don't feel like taking all that time to look at is there, but the Journal Club is listed on my website, and it gives you all the instructions on how to become a member.
- [41:22]
John R. Miles
Dr. E. We've spent a long time getting to the core portion of the topic today, and I think some of the stuff that we were talking about really goes hand in hand with what we're going to be discussing in your book the rest of the day. But Some people may or may not be familiar with the Enneagram. I think a lot of people are familiar with Myers, Briggs and other personality tests that we take. How is the Enneagram different? And how can it help someone live more intentionally and, as you were describing, align themselves more to their authentic selves and to their core values?
- [42:03]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Well, the Enneagram is designed to assist you on what I call that journey back to yourself. Most of the personality assessments that we take are really about the behaviors, whereas the Enneagram focuses on the motivation, why you do what you do. You cannot change or modify behavior successfully unless you understand why you actually engage in that behavior. And when you find your point on the Enneagram, which happens to be the symbol, and it has nine different points around the circle, and three of those points are in a triangle in the middle, you will see that there's an energy at each of those points. Now, the symbol is ancient. It predates Plato. We don't even know where it came from. That's how far back it goes. But the Enneagram that we study today is taken from the work of Mr. Gurdjieff and was later actually transcribed by Mr. Ospensky. And then it went on. And Clavio Naranjo was a Chilean psychotherapist, actually began to create the Enneagram of modern psychology. Oscar Chazo and Claudio Naranjo, we credit with doing that great work. And that is what gave us the Enneagram of psychology. It took ancient spiritual traditions and modern psychology, married them, and then gave us this beautiful tool to work with that I call actually a blueprint to your soul. It's the operating manual that you wish you had been born with, but you weren't. But be grateful for finding it whenever you find it. And what is fascinating about the Enneagram is when you find which of those points is the strongest within you, also referred to as your type, then your whole world begins to change. Why? Because you can actually see and understand why you do the things that you do. And most of us. If I ask the question, whose behavior and attitudes and performances can we change? We would say only our own. But we don't live that way. We truly live expecting other people to change to make our world work for us. When you discover the Enneagram and you discover your dominant point where the energy is strongest, because you have all nine of those energies within you, but one of them leads. When you find that lead energy, then you begin to see and understand what's your greatest desire, what it is that you really Want more than anything in this world that's driving your actions. What is your deepest fear? What is that thing that actually gets you out of bed in the morning? What is it that's motivating that? And then you will also find the things that cause you to fall into fear or shame or blame. You begin to understand how you operate. It's just like a computer. You're suddenly given access to the way that you work. And therefore, you understand why you are triggered by certain things. You understand why some things are so important to you and not important to someone else. And the bonus on this is once you can begin to understand all of those things about yourself, about your own patterns of behavior and what motivates or demotivates you. You also learn about eight other energies. And you can see what's going on with your partner, your spouse, your children, your mother, your father. It's like all of a sudden, the pieces of the puzzle start to come together. And from that day forward, I always say, once you can't not know. You can choose not to do the work, but you've been given an opportunity to see, experience, and understand yourself and the others in the world around you. And then everything changes.
- [47:10]
John R. Miles
I love that backdrop. And I think it's important for people to understand what are the different nine types? Is that something you can go through pretty quickly so people can understand how they're framed? And then I thought we could go through an exercise of me describing the results for my test.
- [47:26]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Okay, that'd be great. I love that. So there are nine types, and rather than explain them one through nine, we usually start by explaining there are three centers of intelligence. The head center, the heart center, and the body center Culminates here in the gut. And three types are in each of those centers. So in the body types, so I start at the lowest level and work up are 8, 9, and 1. The 8 is a challenger. That's that person that is going to charge the hill is going to get it done. And at the end of the day, sometimes with the challenger, you feel like what is a conversation to them feels like a confrontation to you. It's a very strong, strong, challenging, confident, decisive energy. Then you have the nine who is the peacemaker. And the interesting thing about the nine who's right next to the eight on the circle? Nines are really all about the peace. They don't like conflict. They're brilliant mediators when they're healthy and confident and they get attached to their routines. If you can do things the same way all the time, and you know what the results are going to be, then maybe your peace is not going to be disturbed. So peacemakers actually want, when you hear the expression, why can't we just all get along? That's really what peacemakers are trying to do. They just want us all to get along so that we don't disturb their piece. And then there's the 1, 8, 91 all body types. I happen to be a one ones are really motivated or aligned with integrity. They want to be good, they want to be right, they want to do the right thing. So at point one you have people who are saying how hard is it just to do the right thing? And along with the do the right thing comes this real sense of I would just say anger went towards people who don't do the right thing. Now here's the thing. 8, 9, 1 all struggle with anger. 8 it shows up as rage. 9 I say it shows up as a volcano because it takes a while. But when they blow and with ones it's very, can be very mean spirited words. And so if any of that sounds like you, then maybe your body type. And 8, 9 and 1, 2, 3 and 4 is in the heart center. So these are our people who actually the heart is what leads and they're very different. The two is the person who really is going to try to love you through it all. They're going to show up for you and love you and do things for you and be kind and caring. And they tend to forget themselves. They can do everything for everyone else but they literally, they exhaust their own fuel tank and they don't realize that they're giving in order to feel lovable. The three is the and the two is called the helper. The three is called the achiever. That's the person who wants to get the gold medal. We just had the Olympics. Those people that stood up on that podium and dedicated their whole lives to trying to achieve and be successful. And what that's about is that when they look in your eyes, they want to see the reflection of wow, I really admire you. They really want to know that they have, they mean something. Their value is all tied up in what they do and how well they do it. That's the achiever. And then the four who we call the creative, the romantic, there's lots of different names for all of the types. But when we come to point four, that's the person who tends to be able to constantly be on a quest to be authentically who they are. They don't want to be you they don't want to be me. They want to be who they are, and they don't want to sell out. And so usually at point four, you have a lot of people who are very creative and sometimes a bit on the melancholy road of being able to always feel and experience the pain of themselves and others around them. Very good at empathy, but sometimes get caught in the overwhelm of their feelings, and they retain the hurt and the pain. They can touch it, but that's part of why they can be so creative. Vincent van Gogh. And touch that pain and come out and paint something magnificent. Then we have the FA, 2, 3, 4, 4. So that's all of the people in the heart center. And in the heart center, there's an overarching sort of feeling of shame. So the shame is about, am I lovable? Do you see how hard I work to be successful? Am I really valuable, or am I worthless? And also, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? And that's at 2, 3, and 4 in the heart center. That's where the heartbreak comes. Then we have 5, 6, and 7 move up to the head center fives, which we sometimes call the investigator. Fives are people who can see the big picture, and they know that everything is connected. And because of that big picture thinking, they don't like to take little pieces of things and try to come up with the solution. They wanted the whole picture. They can be socially awkward, and sometimes the data and the information feels better to them than a social environment because the data and the information may be more reliable than people's emotions. The six is what we call the loyalist. Sometimes I say the last human standing. Because the 6 has this disability to plan for all the eventualities that may happen. They give us the structures, they give us what we need in order to know what to do in case something goes wrong. Because there's plan A, B, C, D, and you don't know. They also have E, F, and G. In a natural disaster, something or six get to their house. They know the evacuation plan out of the city, which way to go, or they have enough provisions to keep everyone safe. And then we have the seven. And the seven, sometimes known as the enthusiast, is the person who goes through life really seeking joy. Joy and being uplifting is key and essential to the seven. And they want freedom to be happy, to do things that make them happy and that allow them to show up even in hard spaces. Like sevens tend to be among the first responders in a natural disaster because they have that adrenaline Surge where they will go out and want to be where something is happening and where they can be of service. But More than anything, A7 wants their freedom. Not to get caught and pulled down by the doom and gloom and the just the pain of the world, the way the world can be. And that is our nine types.
- [55:28]
John R. Miles
Thank you for going through all those. And I thought my results this time were interesting. I've taken this a few times over the past five or six years, and I took it earlier today and it actually gave three probable types for me that pretty close in percentage. The highest percentage was type 9, which it gave 77%. Type 3, the achiever was 71%. And type 4, the individualist was also 71%. But the test scored me, even though type 9 was the highest, that the successful achiever was the most likely. And I wanted to ask you how should I interpret those percentages? Because I would have thought that the first, the type that had the 79% would have been the most common, not the one it ended up referring me to.
- [56:22]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
The main thing that I can tell you, John, is that a test is never the definitive factor in finding out what your enneagram point is to me. And I never tell anyone what they are because I feel like it hijacks their journey. And it is a journey. But I can talk you through a little bit what you might look at, and that is that you have to look at the way that you have been through most of your life. And what's most important is sometimes you have to look at your younger self. You have to look at what was there before behavior modification, before therapy, before maybe marriage and a spouse telling you just can't behave that way before you recognize that if you want to keep a job, you actually have to shoot show up every day. Before life happened, there was a sort of innocent, raw John who grew up in a certain kind of way, demonstrated certain types of behaviors, and then got older and wiser and began to modify those behaviors. Looking at a three, a four and and a nine. What I can tell you is that there's a connection between the three and the nine. One of the most important things about the enneagram is that there is a way to look at whether you are healthy, average, or unhealthy within your type structure. And that's what makes all the difference in the world. It's like being a diabetic and having a glucose monitor. You want to stay at least in the average, moving up towards healthy and stay away from the low average, moving down into Unhealthy, because that is what makes the type look different. I'm going to ask you some questions in terms of what is the most important thing for you It. At the end of the day, do people actually fuel your energy or do they drain your energy?
- [58:57]
John R. Miles
I would say that they generally drain my energy. Meaning I felt, especially when I was in my fortune 50 days, that I was having to put on a mask, trying to be this extrovert in a very extrovert culture. And I would get home and I would just be completely drained to the bone of any emotions and just extremely tired and felt depleted.
- [59:24]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Okay. And in your home, do you happen to have a place that you consider to be your space where you can be pretty much under undisturbed? Nobody's going to bother you when you go in there. That's all you want is some uninterrupted time to yourself?
- [59:44]
John R. Miles
Yes, I would say that's very important to me.
- [59:47]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Okay. Do you have any kind of a sort of routine in terms of the way that you like to do things?
- [59:56]
John R. Miles
I would say that generally I have a day, a way that I approach my days. I typically get up early and it's pretty methodical. I go and take my dog for a walk. And while I'm on that walk, I do a gratitude practice. I try to think of promises I want to make to myself about the coming day and how I want to live it. And then from there I typically do exercising and then I'll come back and journal out the my thoughts. And then I get into my day and I generally front load my day with the things that are most important, such as preparing for this interview for the day or writing or things that are important to me. And I put answering emails and doing some of those other things towards the back half of my day.
- [60:47]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Okay. And what happens if your kind of plan for the day gets interrupted? You don't get to do your gratitude practice. You don't get to prep for something that you need to prep for the next day. What happens to you internally? How do you react to that?
- [61:08]
John R. Miles
Well, it makes me feel completely out of whack.
- [61:12]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
I'm laughing because your answers are so obviously aligned with one of the enneagram points. All right. And my final question to you would be, how do you feel about conflict?
- [61:25]
John R. Miles
I have generally tried to avoid it more than I have embraced it. I look for more of the peaceful alternatives to going head first into that type of situation.
- [61:38]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Okay, so your responses are that of a person whose dominant energy is at 0.9 at 0.9. We have the Peacemaker. And so I would say take Enneagram made. Easy read about the Peacemaker. You scored high in 3, and 3 is where the 9 energy goes. When it's healthy, you become an achiever. You become someone who can really get things done. All right, there's another line, which is the line to three is your growth point the line to six? Because you're in. It sounds like you're in that triangle in the middle, the line to 6. And I can ask you this. When you. When things are just not going well, they're not organized, you're not getting things done. Do you experience any anxiety or are you like. It doesn't matter. It's. It's okay. How do you react to things piling up on you and you're not being able to get them done?
- [62:49]
John R. Miles
I feel anxious when that happens, for sure.
- [62:52]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Okay. That's the line to six where the anxiety lives. Four would have come up because it sounds to me like you have a lot of four energy because you're a person who has a lot of empathy and compassion. And we do have all nine types within us, all nine of those energies. Just because you have one energy that you test out to be high in, that doesn't necessarily mean it's your dominant point. From the results that you got and the questions that you responded to, you responded like a 9. And in growth, you would go to 3, and under stress, you would go to 6. And there's so much more to that than just going to growth and going distress. There's bundles of stuff in between. But that is something that all I can do is give you that guidance to take that journey. And what I always say is, I'm happy to help someone on the journey, but I'm never going to tell you that's your point, because that's for you to now go deeper and explore and see if that nine really fits you. And if it does, you will see that in Enneagram Made Easy. You're going to contact me and say, you didn't need to write all these words. You could have just put my picture here.
- [64:23]
John R. Miles
Well, I will definitely Dr. You do that. Deep dive. I am interested. Before we conclude, you and I have both talked about spiritual growth at the beginning of this podcast. How does this tool tie into spiritual growth? And how can a listener use this tool to not only live more intentionally, but to also deepen their spiritual practice?
- [64:47]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Well, it's so fascinating that one of the things about the Enneagram that people don't Understand is that the Enneagram is actually designed to undergird the faith that you already have, because it helps you to understand your flawed self. It helps you to understand that perfection is not something that you need to constantly be seeking. That there's a particular line in a song by Sleeping At Last, who does songs for all nine of the Enneagram types. And there is a line in the song for point one, to live my whole life to find that grace requires nothing of me. And that just gave me goosebumps. What the Enneagram does is it leads you to a place where you learn to accept yourself exactly as you are. And you learn that there is no force that can be more benevolent or more loving and kind than in my language. It's God or the universe or source or your creator. But you begin to really understand that. And when you understand that, you want to live more intentionally. You want to be that my language, that child of God who goes through the earth with loving kindness. You want to be a vessel who can actually bring more goodness into the world. Why? Because you understand who you are, why you're here, and how to step into your purpose. One of the most beautiful things that can ever happen for a human is to be able to understand and step into their purpose and then continue to take the steps. The Enneagram is designed to help you do exactly that. And then for those who don't have a faith walk or a spiritual journey, it just helps you get along with yourself and other people better because you now understand that you're motivated by different things. I just did a talk up at Chautauqua Institute. I was brought up there by the interfaith organization. And one of the reasons I was there was to help people who are in ministry work, to learn how to better minister to people who are atheist or agnostics, and to be able to use the Enneagram as a tool or a roadmap towards kindness and towards actually treating people like people, not like objects. Objects. There's something there for everyone. But the spiritual path of the Enneagram absolutely will help you to elevate your consciousness to a place where it brings your faith up off of the page. It helps you to embody the faith that you already have or to strengthen it so that you could actually be a force for good in the world.
- [68:29]
John R. Miles
Well, Dr. E, this conversation went many different directions than I ever thought it would, but I think it's turned into a gem of an interview. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's been such an honor to have you on and I learned a lot more about myself through this process and I hope others will explore this tool to learn more how to be the authentically themselves themselves.
- [68:53]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Thank you John. I loved being here.
- [68:56]
John R. Miles
Wow. What an enlightening conversation that was with Dr. E. I hope you are leaving this episode with a deeper understanding of yourself as well as the people around you. The Enneagram is such a powerful tool for personal growth, emotional intelligence and building stronger connections, and Dr. E's insights on how we could apply it to our lives was invaluable. One of the biggest takeaways from today's discussion is the importance of embracing our unique abilities and using the Enneagram as a framework to unlock deeper self awareness and compassion for others. Whether you're new to the Enneagram or A seasoned explorer, Dr. E's wisdom offers fresh perspectives for everyone. If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Drop a review and let us hear how you plan to use the Enneagram in your life. And don't forget to share this powerful episode with someone who could use Dr. E's message about the Enneagram and its transformative power. Your support means the world to us and helps us spread impactful messages to even more people. You can find links to all things Dr. E, including her book Enneagram Made Easy in the show notes@passionstruck.com Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show. It all goes to support the show. Videos are on YouTube at both John R. Miles and Passion Strock Clips, advertiser deals and discount codes are in one convenient place@passionstruck.com deals and if you're interested in getting daily doses of inspiration, you can connect with me on all the social platforms at johnrmiles. And before we wrap up, I wanted to remind you that in addition to hosting the Passion Struck podcast, I'm passionate about bringing these insights and strategies to organizations, conferences, universities and teams through speaking engagements. I've had the privilege of speaking to some of the world's top companies like FedEx and Target, conferences like Dreamforce and NRF and association and university events, helping their leaders and teams break through barriers and create intentional change. If you're interested or know someone else who might be, just head over to johnrmiles.com speaking or feel free to reach out directly through the website. And if you think I'd be a great fit for your next event, I'd truly appreciate it. If you help spread the word, a quick email or recommendation can make a world of difference. Next week we have a truly incredible guest joining us. Diego Perez, also known as Young Pueblo, will be diving into his powerful insights on emotional healing, personal growth, and the power of self awareness. It's a conversation you don't want to miss, full of wisdom and practical tools to help you deepen your understanding of yourself and to navigate life's challenges. People sometimes get upset with giving kindness to a particular individual or a friend or a former partner, but then they don't receive that kindness back. I always think that karmically you may not receive what you gave from that particular person, but it will come back to you in some manner. It may come back from another stranger in your future or someone else down the line, but the things that you give will come back to you, but they may not come back from the same person. As always, the fee for the show is simple. If you found value in today's episode, then share it with someone who could benefit from it. The greatest compliment that you can give us is to share the show with those that you love and care about. And remember, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so that you can live what you listen. Until next time. Live life Passion Struck.
- [72:27]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Foreign.
- [72:36]
John R. Miles
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- [72:48]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Restrictions apply.
- [72:51]
John R. Miles
A role that feels like paradise and.
- [72:54]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Always at a heavenly prize Angel Soft Angel Song Soft and strong.
- [72:59]
John R. Miles
So it's pick up a pack today.
- [73:02]
Dr. Deborah Threadgill Egerton
Angel Soft Soft and strong.