Podcast Summary: Passion Struck with John R. Miles

Episode: Dr. Ingrid Clayton on Why We Fawn and How to Stop | EP 661
Date: September 9, 2025

Main Theme Overview

This episode explores the psychology and lived reality of "fawning," a little-recognized trauma response where individuals habitually please, appease, or defer to others at their own expense. Host John R. Miles and guest Dr. Ingrid Clayton—clinical psychologist, trauma survivor, and author of the upcoming book Fawning: Why the Need to Please Makes Us Lose Ourselves and How to Find Our Way Back—delve into how fawning differs from people-pleasing and codependency, why it’s a survival strategy rooted in trauma, and what it takes to recover autonomy, agency, and self-worth. The conversation is candid, trauma-informed, and rooted in personal narratives, with practical insights for listeners seeking intentional transformation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Journey from Self-Abandonment to Self-Reclamation

• Definition and Distinction:

  • Dr. Clayton frames fawning as an unconscious survival response—different from mere people-pleasing or codependency (10:27).
  • "Fawning is really an extension of what we've long known about fight, flight and freeze...it's a survival instinct, it's unconscious." (Dr. Clayton, 10:27)

• Origin in Trauma:

  • Fawning often begins as a necessary adaptation during unsafe relationships—especially in childhood or systemic environments where standing up for oneself seems impossible (12:35, 16:16).
  • Dr. Clayton recounts her own story of being groomed by her stepfather and the confusion of feeling unsafe even during superficially kind interactions.
  • "It was the first time I felt unsafe with him while he was seemingly being kind. That moment changed everything." (Quote from Clayton's book, 12:00)

• Why It’s Widespread and Unrecognized:

  • Many "chronic fawners" misinterpret their behavior as kindness or empathy, not realizing they are consistently abandoning themselves for others (16:16).
  • "We think we're being kind, but we don't realize that by solely prioritizing everybody else, we're not being kind to ourselves." (Dr. Clayton, 16:16)

2. Fawning vs. Codependency & People-Pleasing

• Dr. Clayton argues these older paradigms have pathologized survival responses as character defects, producing shame instead of healing.
• Trauma lens is crucial: these responses originate from an internal drive for safety when fight, flight, or freeze are not available (18:52, 25:50).
• "I'm tired of blaming the victim. I'm wanting to restore a sense of empowerment to people." (Dr. Clayton, 16:16)

3. The Anatomy of Fawning—Personal & Client Stories

• Double Bind & Self-Abandonment:

  • Dr. Clayton describes “safety over self” as the body’s constant calculation—privileging short-term survival over long-term autonomy (25:50).

• Example: Sadie's Story (26:52):

  • A client mistook chronic people-pleasing and remaining in abusive relationships as the path to healing. Her full recovery began with realizing her story and needs were enough—no need to perform for validation.
  • "You matter. You don’t have to pretend; your story exactly as it is, is enough. You are enough." (Dr. Clayton, 28:48)

• Own Experience:

  • Dr. Clayton shares her personal journey through recovery from addiction and trauma, illustrating how her fawn response shaped career, relationships, and self-perception (06:47–09:40, 31:01).

4. Fawning in Professional and Systemic Contexts

• At Work:

  • Chronic fawners may become high performers who consistently take on more work, avoid claiming credit, or struggle for validation—yet feel invisible or stuck (38:10).
  • Alternatively, they may shrink, keeping their best talents hidden out of fear.
  • "Fawning can look like success. That's part of the performance. And yet who was it really for?" (Dr. Clayton, 38:10)

• Money Dynamics:

  • Fawners may struggle to accumulate wealth, instead using money as a means of caretaking or validating their worth, often feeling others are more entitled (43:18).

5. Pathways to Healing: Moving Beyond Survival Mode

• Nervous System Work Over Talk Therapy:

  • Healing requires learning to notice and honor bodily sensations—not just intellectualizing solutions (44:51).
  • "We say, what are you noticing now? ... By orienting in this way, it sounds so simple. But what we're ultimately doing is creating a relationship to present time and place and a relationship with ourself in our own body." (Dr. Clayton, 44:51)

• Lowering the Bar to Lower Defenses (47:05):

  • Self-compassion and curiosity, rather than pressure and shame, are essential.
  • "Can we honor the roots of the fawn response as genius and adaptive and healthy? ... We are not meant to live in a chronic trauma response." (Dr. Clayton, 47:18)

• Reclaiming Voice & Identity:

  • Taking cues from the body, acknowledging the origins, and slowly experimenting with agency and honest self-expression are key to unfawning.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "[Fawning is] not looking for our opinion or we might not even know that we're doing it." (Dr. Ingrid Clayton, 10:27)
• "If I don't have a sense of self, how can I fully show up in the world?" (Dr. Ingrid Clayton, 16:16)
• "Ultimately we go, oh, okay, well, that's who I need to be in order to matter. And there's a lot of shedding that we have to do as we move into this healing work." (Dr. Clayton, 28:48)
• "We are not meant to live in a chronic trauma response. We are not meant to live in survival mode 24/7." (Dr. Ingrid Clayton, 47:18)
• "I want people to have reverence for themselves, self-compassion. But bigger than that, it's a knowing that you make sense then and you make sense now." (Dr. Ingrid Clayton, 49:14)
• "The cost of fawning is self-abandonment. We lose connection to our voice and our truth." (John R. Miles, 50:27 recap)

Key Timestamps

• 04:54: Dr. Clayton shares how former paradigms (codependency, addict labels) were both helpful and harmful.
• 06:47: Discussion on sobriety and the transformation it enabled.
• 10:02: Defining fawning and how it differs from people pleasing/codependency.
• 12:00: Dr. Clayton recounts her first memory of fawning—being groomed by her stepfather.
• 16:16: Why highlighting fawning is vital; self-abandonment explained.
• 18:52: Philosophical discussion on “ought self” vs. “ideal self” and fawning's role.
• 20:43: The Las Vegas story—when seeking help made things worse and shut down Dr. Clayton’s fight response.
• 25:50: Defining the “double bind” and “safety over self.”
• 26:52: Case study: Sadie’s story (relational trauma, overgiving, mistaken identity).
• 31:01: The “homing pigeon” metaphor—patterning of trauma in adult relationships.
• 38:10: Fawning at work—ambition, performance, and invisibility.
• 43:18: Fawning and money—why chronic caretakers shed rather than accumulate wealth.
• 44:51: Why nervous system work is key to healing fawning.
• 47:05: The paradox of “lowering the bar to lower defenses.”
• 49:13: Dr. Clayton’s hope for her book and the normalization of survival responses.

Conclusion & Final Takeaways

• Fawning is not a character defect or mere people-pleasing, but a deep survival mechanism rooted in trauma and power dynamics.
• Recovery requires noticing and honoring the body, developing self-compassion, and reclaiming voice and agency—often against powerful cultural and systemic scripts.
• Both host and guest stress the importance of intentional living, authenticity, and the vital truth that "you make sense."

For further resources, including Dr. Clayton’s book and recommended practices, visit ingridclayton.com.

This episode is recommended for anyone—trauma survivor, caregiver, or curious listener—who senses that the drive to be liked or safe has subtly, powerfully shaped their life, and is ready to stop existing and start truly mattering.