Henna Pryor on How to Get Good at Being Awkward | EP 701

Summary

Passion Struck with John R. Miles — EP 701

Guest: Henna Pryor

Topic: How to Get Good at Being Awkward
Release Date: December 11, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Passion Struck explores the underestimated power of awkwardness in personal growth and leadership. Host John R. Miles interviews workplace performance expert and author Henna Pryor about her research and book "Good Awkward." The conversation delves into how embracing awkward moments can help individuals break through self-limiting beliefs, improve resilience, and foster deeper connections both at work and in life. Pryor offers practical strategies, shares memorable stories, and reframes awkwardness as a sign of courageous growth rather than as a flaw to be avoided.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Awkwardness: The Front Edge of Growth

• Awkwardness as a Growth Signal:
  Pryor challenges the belief that awkwardness is a flaw, arguing instead it's the "front edge of growth" (02:45). Most people, she says, don't quit on their dreams at the point of failure, but "at the point of awkwardness" (03:00).
• Confidence is the Reward, Not the Prerequisite:
  Pryor: "Confidence is the reward for going through awkward, not the prerequisite" (02:50).

2. The Epidemic of Avoiding Help and Connection

• Stat: 30% would Rather Clean a Toilet than Ask for Help:
  Pryor cites startling research: "30% of employees would rather clean a toilet than ask a co-worker for help" (06:44).
• Why It’s Harder Now:
  Hybrid and virtual work environments have "underdeveloped the muscle" of asking for help. We magnify potential rejection, and "we've gotten out of practice" (07:16).
• Generational Dynamics:
  Digital natives are not to blame for their aversion to direct communication; "they can't help when they were born," Pryor emphasizes (09:28). Leaders must approach with patience and understanding.

3. Social Muscle Atrophy and the Need for Reps

• The Social Muscle Concept:
  Like physical muscles, social skills atrophy from disuse: "If we don't use them, we lose them" (10:22, 35:27).
• Meaningful Practice Matters:
  Not just surface-level interaction, but practicing "meaningful conversations" is what builds social muscle (36:15).

4. Real-Life Awkwardness and its Upside

Children and Phone Calls

• Pryor shares about helping her son make his first phone call to modify a food order:
  • "He hung up the phone, he said, 'Oh, mom, I did it, I did it.' … In his world, it was the equivalent from a social standpoint of running a marathon" (11:36).

Workplace Examples

• Even seasoned professionals find asking for help awkward, but "It's all in the framing, it's all in the approach" (13:20).

Public Speaking and Improv

• Awkwardness is Inevitable:
  "You cannot avoid an awkward moment... What we can train, though, is the ability to, as improv would say, take what's handed to you. Radical acceptance of reality." (19:00)
• Improv Principles:
  Using humor, resetting, and moving forward after slip-ups are key. Pryor recommends using improv training and Toastmasters to increase resilience.

5. Embracing & Harnessing Awkwardness (Role Models & Research)

Jennifer Lawrence

• Quick to Ownership:
  Jennifer Lawrence’s response to tripping at the Oscars—"You're all just clapping because you saw me trip and you feel bad for me"—is an example of owning awkwardness, "taking the power back" (22:40).

Spotlight Effect and Illusion of Transparency

• Spotlight Effect:
  "We believe people are looking at us with far more intensity... than they actually are" (24:49).
• Illusion of Transparency:
  "Most people can't see through us to that level of intensity... We are not as transparent... as we think" (25:41).

CEO's Pandemic Humanity

• A once buttoned-up CEO became beloved for allowing family interruptions during Zoom calls, which “felt very equalizing… shared humanity” for employees (42:04).

6. Social Muscle Atrophy & Generational Differences

• National Study Data:
  44% of all workers find relationships at work superficial; for Gen Z, it's 52% (37:50). Gen Z reports 27% more social muscle atrophy-related struggles than Boomers.

• Retention Crisis:
  Weak social skills are a driver of turnover, especially for Gen Z (38:15).

7. The Mattering Deficit and Psychological Safety

• Making People Feel They Matter:
  Leaders must ask themselves, "How do they know if they're seen, valued, respected?" (40:15).
• Actionable System:
  If showing appreciation isn't natural, "systemize it"—schedule time each week to give genuine recognition (41:22).

8. Leadership and Good Awkwardness

• The Power of Owning Small Blunders:
  Sharing one's own minor failings in real time models psychological safety and encourages others to take risks (44:51).
• Embrace, Don't Fake, Awkwardness:
  "What I don't want is fabricated awkwardness... But what I do want to see... is just letting their misgivings, their flaws, their blunders have a little more airtime..." (44:51).

9. Redefining Awkwardness

• "There is no such thing as a factually awkward person."
  "By definition, awkwardness is an emotion or a characteristic, and it is subjective" (47:43).
• Reframing for Listeners:
  Say "I am feeling awkward right now," not "I am awkward." It's transient, not defining (48:14).

10. From Awkward to Brave

• Word for Good Awkward:
  "Brave. If you can embody what it means to be good awkward, you are unstoppable" (48:53).

• Advice for Leaders:
  The best leaders model awkwardness by openly asking for feedback and staying in discomfort long enough to learn from it (49:10).

11. The Future of "Soft" Skills

• Soft Skills = Power Skills:
  Communication, boundaries, and public speaking will be the "uniquely human" skills as AI automates hard skills (50:21).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Why Avoiding Awkwardness Backfires:
  "Ironically, avoiding the awkwardness increases the awkwardness. It's the most counterintuitive truth about this emotion." – Henna Pryor (23:20)

• On Generational Tech Shifts:
  "They can't help when they were born, just the same way we can't help when we were born." – Henna Pryor (09:28)

• On Social Muscle:
  "Social muscle is metaphorically similar to a physical muscle... when it's underused, it weakens, it atrophies." – Henna Pryor (10:22)

• On Improv as Training:
  "What we can train, though, is the ability to, as improv would say, take what's handed to you. Radical acceptance of reality." – Henna Pryor (19:00)

• On Transforming Awkwardness:
  "There is no such thing as a factually awkward person." – Henna Pryor (47:43)

• On the Essential Shift for Leaders:
  "Soft skills are not soft anymore. Soft skills are power skills." – Henna Pryor (50:21)

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Key Timestamps

• 05:07 — Start of main interview; Henna on learning work ethic from Big Four consulting
• 07:16 — The struggles and stories we tell ourselves around asking for help
• 09:28 — Generational dynamics around communication (“They can’t help when they were born”)
• 10:22 — The "social muscle" metaphor explained
• 14:47 — Brene Brown's influence and the origin of Pryor's interest in awkwardness
• 19:00 — Improv principles and teaching resiliency after awkward moments
• 22:40 — Jennifer Lawrence’s Oscars trip and the value of owning awkwardness
• 24:49 — Spotlight effect and illusion of transparency
• 35:27 — Explanation of "social muscle atrophy" (SMA)
• 37:50 — Gen Z and workplace superficiality statistics
• 40:15 — The importance of actively showing people they matter
• 42:04 — CEO’s newfound humanity during pandemic Zoom calls
• 44:51 — Operationalizing psychological safety through ‘good awkward’
• 47:43 — The essential reframe: "There is no such thing as a factually awkward person."
• 48:53 — "Brave" is the one word for good awkward
• 50:21 — Urgency of prioritizing "power skills" over hard skills in the age of AI

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Actionable Takeaways

• Practice Naming Awkwardness: Practice saying "that was awkward" in group situations to diffuse tension and build confidence.
• Reframe Self-Perception: Replace “I am awkward” with “I feel awkward right now” to recognize the moment as temporary.
• Schedule Recognition: Systemize appreciation if you don’t naturally vocalize it to help others feel they matter.
• Try Improv or Toastmasters: Actively seek out uncomfortable moments for reps in handling unpredictability.
• Own Mistakes Publicly: Leaders can model psychological safety by admitting blunders in real time.

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Resources

• Henna Pryor:

  • LinkedIn
  • Instagram @hennapryor
  • hennapryor.com — Speaking, articles, learning resources

• Workshops and Workbooks:

  • Companion workbooks for each episode at theignitedlife.net

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Closing Thought

Growth rarely comes looking polished. As John R. Miles puts it (52:05):
"If you’re uncomfortable, it means you’re expanding... Awkwardness is evidence that you’re actively becoming, and confidence is not the starting line. It's earned on the way."
Awkwardness, approached with intention, ownership, and a little humor, becomes the signal—not the deterrent—of meaningful progress.

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Transcript

[A]

The wait is over. Dive into Audible's most anticipated collection, the Best of 2025, featuring top audiobooks, podcasts, and originals across all genres. Our editors have carefully curated this year's must listens. From brilliant hidden gems to the buzziest new releases, every title in this collection has earned its spot. This is your go to for the absolute best in 2025 audio entertainment. Whether you love thrillers, romance or non, your next favorite listen awaits. Discover why there's more to imagine when you [e-mail] BestOfTheYear coming up next on Passion Struck. A lot of us in the last five years got thrown into these hybrid workspaces, virtual workspaces. We may not see our colleagues anymore. We tend to have this tendency to magnify or create a story around what it means to ask someone for help. We're not talking to them as often, so the muscle feels underdeveloped. We are not clear on what they think our capabilities are, what we think their bandwidth is to help us. So we tell ourself a whole story about what that represents. And because of all these factors, it's harder than ever to ask for help. But amongst all of those, the biggest one is we're just not doing it as much and we've gotten out of practice.

[B]

Welcome to Passion Struck. I'm your host, John Miles. This is the show where we explore the art of human flourishing and what it truly means to live like it matters. Each week I sit down with change makers, creators, scientists, and everyday heroes to decode the human experience and uncover the tools that help us lead with meaning, heal what hurts, and pursue the fullest expression of who we're capable of becoming. Whether you're designing your future, developing as a leader, or seeking deeper alignment in your life, this show is your invitation to grow with purpose and act with intention. Because the secret to a life of deep purpose, connection and impact is choosing to live like you matter.

Hey friends, welcome back to Passion Struck. We're fresh off episode 700 and I just want to say it again. Thank you. You are the reason this movement continues to grow. You listen, you share, you invite others in. And because of you, Passion Struck reached number one in health and wellness worldwide on Apple Podcasts for the first time. I am incredibly grateful. Now we're continuing our series the Season of Becoming, this very real transition between the life we've known and and the fuller, braver life calling us forward. Last Tuesday, Susan Grau walked us through rebirth and the voice of intuition after loss. Last Thursday, Ann Libera showed us how letting go of the script unlocks new identity. And on Tuesday, Brent Gleason reminded us that comfort can become the slow fade away from who we're meant to be. Today, we focus on what that discomfort actually looks like in everyday life. Not in a combat zone or a life crisis, but in the moments where growth feels clumsy, where you question yourself, where you want to shrink back because something feels awkward. And that right there is why I wanted this conversation for you. Because most people don't quit on their dreams at the point of failure. They quit at the point of awkwardness. They don't want to look inexperienced or imperfect or human. My guest is Henna Pryor, workplace performance expert and author of Good Awkward. Her mission is simple to help you get comfortable being uncomfortable so your potential isn't limited by self consciousness. In today's discussion, we talk about why awkwardness isn't a flaw. It's the front edge of growth. How your nervous system mislabels stretching as danger, the hidden cost of trying to get it right before you begin. Why confidence is the reward for going through awkward, not the prerequisite, and a simple, practical way to build courage through small, uncomfortable reps. If we're truly becoming, becoming deeper, stronger, more intentional versions of ourselves, awkwardness is not the enemy. It's the sign we're right on schedule. Before we start, a quick favor. If today's episode helps you take one brave step, share it with someone who needs the courage to take theirs. Also, consider leaving a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It makes a bigger difference than you might realize. And lastly, watch our full episodes on YouTube on our channels, PassionsTalk clips and John R. Miles. All right, here we go, episode 701. Let's dive into this powerful conversation with Hannah Pryor. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now let that journey begin.

I'm absolutely thrilled today to welcome Hannah Pryor to Passion Struck. Welcome Hannah. How are you today?

[A]

Thank you for having me, John. Excited to be here.

[B]

As you and I were discussing before we got on the show, we both got our start in big four consulting firms, audit firms. I just wanted to ask, what was the biggest thing you learned from that environment?

[A]

Oh, gosh. Work ethic. Work ethic. So I joined in 2003 and at that time, for any accountants or finance folks, that was when Sarbanes Oxley first came out. So all public companies had to become Sarbanes Oxley compliant, which was this whole new Set of regulations. And so all of that to say, for about two years straight, I worked a year round busy season. So in the accounting world, there's an expectation that you work about three months of intense busy season, January through March or April, but then the rest of the year is normal. I had no normal. It was two years of busy season because every client had to become SOX compliant. At the time, that was very difficult. But there is no faster training for hard work and work ethic than being thrown into it in that way. So that was by far my biggest learning.

[B]

I remember I was with Arthur Anderson when Y2K happened. And that was probably one of the best moments in my career because everyone had to do technology certification, so they had to. We were probably the busiest we had ever been in the history of that firm at that point in time.

[A]

Exactly right. And then every job after that, hard work didn't feel so hard because you had been through the ringer already.

[B]

Yes. Today we're going to be talking about something that I think a lot of leaders don't really embrace, which is the embarrassing moments that often make you cringe and so many of us don't want to share. I'm going to start with something that you cite often, which is 30% of employees would rather clean a toilet. Hard, hard to believe than ask a co worker for help. When you uncovered this, what went through your mind?

[A]

The first thought was, oh gosh, that's discouraging. And then the second thought was, and I'm not surprised because today more than ever, we really struggle with our optics, which is where a lot of this topic comes from, about feeling awkward, feeling embarrassed. And today, because we, a lot of us in the last five years got thrown into these hybrid workspaces, virtual workspaces, we may not see our colleagues anymore. We tend to have this tendency to magnify or create a story around what it means to ask someone for help. We're not talking to them as often, so the muscle feels underdeveloped. We are not clear on what they think our capabilities are, what we think their bandwidth is to help us. So we tell ourselves a whole story about what that represents. And because of all these factors, it's harder than ever to ask for help. But amongst all of those, the biggest one is we're just not doing it as much and we've gotten out of practice.

[B]

Not only do I think we've gotten out of practice there, I think we've gotten out of practice across all of humanity in how we're connecting with each other. So the workplace, to me is a micro environment of a greater epidemic. I think that's happening across communities, everywhere that you look. Yeah. Even to the point with the younger generations of even wanting to get on a phone call with you instead of taking the easier path of emailing or doing a chat with you.

[A]

Yes. I think that generational bit is so important, and I always like to start here. When it comes to generations, I think it's very easy. So I'm almost 44. I'm squarely, I think, what they refer to as elder millennial at this point. With generations, I think it's very easy. I've got teenagers 15 and 13, but they're not yet in the workforce, but they're not that far from it. It's easy to say they don't like to talk on the phone, they like to hide behind their screens. And I always try to help leaders understand, first and foremost, they can't help when they were born.

We have to start with that agreement. They can't help when they were born, just the same way we can't help when we were born. So we cannot pathologize them for growing up with all of this technology and for this being the default. But what we can do is start to better understand as leaders, what is standing in the way of them trying to adopt some of these techniques that, for us, feel very second nature. I think if we can have a little more patience to acknowledge that truth, then we can start to discuss what we actually do about it and how we create that practice.

[B]

I think there's definitely something to be said with that. My kids are now 21 and 27, but I definitely live through that moment that you're going through right now. And it is a huge paradigm shift from when you and I were back in. In school, in the environments that they're being raised in and how they're communicating and how it's so much different than it was when we were that age.

[A]

Yeah. I think where we sometimes have opportunity is just the recognition of a. These things that were not hard for us do feel like a bigger lift. So I use the term in my research about social muscle. Social muscle is metaphorically similar to a physical muscle, a muscle in your body, in that when it's underused, it weakens, it atrophies. These folks, because of their digital structures, being digital natives don't have as much strength building in some of those in person, synchronous social structures. They just don't require it in a given day. Me, forget about my kids. Forget about Gen Z. Me, I could go through the whole day. I, I can order my groceries on Instacart, I can get my lunch on DoorDash, I can DM and Slack my colleagues. I don't have to talk to anybody on a day that I'm working from home. That's systemic. That's not just generational, that's systemic. And can we create opportunities for people to practice? My 13 year old son the other day wanted coconut removed from his acai bowl that we ordered online. But it wasn't an option on Doordash to remove the coconut. So I said, honey, you gotta call Pliables and say, hi, my name is X. I just placed an order, I would like to remove the coconut. He did it, John, I kid you not, it sounds like I'm being dramatic, but he did it. He hung up the phone, he said, oh, mom, I did it, I did it. And I'm just giggling to myself like, this kid just feels like he ran a marathon. But he did. In his world, it was the equivalent from a social standpoint.

[B]

At the Naval Academy where I graduated from, we have something called the Distinguished Graduate Award, which is the highest honor an academy graduate can attain. And I have been submitting a classmate of mine. Now, this will be our third year and I'm trying to make his package as robust as possible. But in order to do it, we need endorsements. So I have been calling Secretaries of State, Secretaries of the Navy, former admirals and generals and Medal of Honor winners. And it's tough even for me to make those phone calls, especially to that level of people. I'm doing it because it's a lot easier to say no in electronic communication than when you get someone on the phone and you can express in your tone and your words just how important it is that this endorsement is to a package. And I think that's something that we've grown to not realize.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's that. And then it goes back to what we talked about at the beginning about people being afraid to ask for help. Your illustration right now is a form of asking for help, right? You're leveraging these contacts in order to help this person that you're submitting. And often the narrative that goes through our head is, well, I don't want to bother people. I don't want to bother people.

Our being in community with others has now been reframed in our head as we're bothering people. So I want to be very crystal clear about this. You can bother people, believe me, you can bother people. And it feels bothersome when the approach is wrong, right? When the approach feels like, well, I haven't talked to this person in ages and the only time I hear from them is when they need something from me. I have those people in my life, and I'll be honest, it bothers me a bit because I feel dehumanized. I feel that I'm only useful to them when they need something. But if you can frame that differently, I'm not saying you need to talk to them all the time, but to say, hey, hope you've been great, been following your journey, been trying to support your work, and also, I couldn't help but think you would be such the perfect person. Feel free to say no, but I just wanted to ask. Right? It's all in the framing, it's all in the approach. And all of a sudden it may feel awkward, but it stops being bothersome. And there's a difference between those two things.

[B]

Well, I want to talk about Brene Brown for a second because I'm a huge fan of her and her work and her podcast and everything else, but I understand you are, too. And it's actually by listening to her, it moved you into a direction to start really studying awkwardness. How did that come about?

[A]

I don't think anyone as a little girl thinks I'm going to be the awkwardness expert, although I was the expert, just not from a academic sense. I felt that was my lived experience, and my interest in the topic came from. Despite whatever confidence or eloquence people might perceive. Now I am a keynote speaker for a living. I felt very awkward growing up. I'm the firstborn of immigrant parents, so my clothes were different, my lunch smelled different, every. My name is Henna. I grew up in the early 80s where everybody was Jennifer, Jessica, Samantha. I just desperately wanted to fit in and assimilate rather than feeling like every one of my bumpy edges was sticking out. I felt awkward about it all. And then I got to high school, started to find a little bit of my sense of self, got to college. That's when I really started to find a little bit more of my personality and sense of self. But. But then I got to the workforce, and every time I felt like I was in a new situation or at an inflection point or in transition, those little Henna feelings of, oh my gosh, I feel so embarrassed, I should know better, I feel awkward about it all. They kept coming up, and Brene used to say in her podcasts and her interviews, stay awkward, brave and kind. I love everything Brene says, but every time she said that, I was like, okay, lady, stay kind. Yes. Stay brave. I know that's important, but stay awkward. No, thank you. I have been trying to fight this feeling off my entire life, and I got very curious about that and realized no one had studied this particular emotion in the workplace and the role that it plays in our collective performance.

[B]

Before we go to talking about your book, since you brought it up, I want to ask you another question. You said that you're a professional speaker. A number of months ago, we launched Passion struct speakers. Our bureau and speaking is something that comes easily to some people and more difficult to others.

[A]

For sure.

[B]

What's your biggest advice for an aspiring.

[A]

Keynote speaker who's out there rehearsed, refine and be relentless about your craft. I am. For as awkward as I felt, I will say transparently that I am an extrovert. I'm not shy. That said, I don't know many successful keynote speakers that get by on extroversion or charisma alone. That's not enough anymore. And so I have been obsessive with about refining my craft as a keynote speaker. Craft means the differentiation of your message. In the age of AI, why should someone listen to you when they can just put it into chatgpt or find a free YouTube video? Right. Why are they going to pay money? So there's the quality and differentiation of your message. There's the quality of your delivery. Do you know how to specifically use your body, your arms, the inflection of your voice? These are all things that can be trained.

[B]

And.

[A]

And then the relentlessness is. The world is changing fast. It requires a bit of constant reinvention. And so I think there's a lot of levers that successful long game keynote speakers prioritize that are not just personality and charisma alone. That's where the true difference lies.

[B]

Okay, well, I have one more question ask you here. In order for myself to practice, say I got really involved with improv and I also got involved with Toastmasters, and I did both of them because I think as a speaker, there are a lot of times you hit awkward moments. You never know what is going to hit you. One of the most awkward moments I ever had was I was speaking at the Dreamforce conference. There were almost 50,000 people in the audience, and Will, I am from the Black Eyed Peas, was in the front row, and he was doing this to. To Marc Benioff and I on stage, trying to make us crack up and trying to look out in the crowd and avoid him while keeping a straight face was an extremely awkward moment for me. What has been? Have you ever had an awkward moment on stage?

[A]

Oh, how many? How much time do we have? Many. There has been times, especially towards the beginning, where I completely missed a main point from a slide. Like I completely skipped a section or I mispronounced something horrendously and something inappropriate came out of my mouth more times than I can count. But John, I love what you said about the improv training. So chapter eight of my book is about using improv principles to learn to get better at tolerating and embracing awkwardness. You cannot avoid an awkward moment. You cannot. To avoid an awkward moment means having a crystal ball and knowing exactly what the future is going to bring, knowing exactly how another person is going to react, knowing exactly how that day is going to unfold. If someone has cracked that code, share it with the class. Good luck. We don't know that. What we can train, though, is the ability to, as improv would say, take what's handed to you. Yes. And right. Radical acceptance of reality. Here's the moment. What am I going to do next? How am I going to move this forward? So when I have mispronounced something, or if I was you and Will I am was doing this, I probably wouldn't have been able to resist stopping and going, will I am's giving me one of these. So I'm either killing it like Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, or I probably would have taken that moment and made something of it, if only to diffuse my own distraction. Right. And so there's lots of different strategies that are personality dependent. For some people, it's using humor. For others, it's having a reset strategy to be able to put that away and out of mind, move on to the next. But those improv principles are critical in those moments.

[B]

I hope you're enjoying my conversation with Hannah Pryor. Before we continue, I want to pause on something important. Listening to a podcast is one thing. Becoming the person you're listening for is another. Every single week, people tell me, john, I love these conversations, but how do I actually do this in my life? That's exactly why we create companion workbooks for each episode. Simple, powerful tools to help you apply what you discover here. Because becoming isn't passive. It's a choice you repeat. You can download all our free workbooks in the substack posts that go along with each episode. Just head to theignitedlife.net and join the community. Now, a quick break for our sponsors, thank you for supporting those who support the show.

You're listening to Passion Struck on the Passion Struck Network. Now back to my conversation with Hannah Prior. I want to make this real for people because even people we look up to or think get it right all the time have these awkward moments. I just recently saw Shakira was on stage in front of thousands at a concert when she slipped and fell in the middle of a song and had to recover from it, which she did with grace. Yeah, but a person that you chronicle in your book is Jennifer Lawrence. And I remember there's this famous video of her where she's talking to someone else and all of a sudden someone comes up behind her and starts sharing his admiration for her. And it was Jack Nicholson. Yeah, but she is known for tripping on the Oscar stage, fumbling modeling gigs. But her awkwardness actually makes her more magnetic. And so I wanted to ask is how can leaders, young adults, students who might be listening to this, harness their awkwardness in the way that Jennifer Lawrence does, especially when they're in high pressure environments?

[A]

The thing that Jennifer Lawrence does beautifully and any of us can model is when those moments inevitably occur. Rather than avoidance, she's quick to ownership. So this is what we mean by embracing an awkward moment. So again, they're not avoidable. What we can work on is our comeback rate. And Jennifer Lawrence has a beautiful ability to have a fast and an intentional comeback rate. So when she tripped on her dress at the Oscars, it was right as she was walking up the steps about to accept her award. We all saw it. There was no avoiding it. She could stay red, embarrassed, mortified. But she immediately. The first thing she said when she got us on stage is she made a joke about it. She said, you're all just clapping because you saw me trip and you feel bad for me. She owned it. She took the power back because she took that situation and owned it. Similar in other situations, she's just very quick about taking the thing in the room and taking ownership of it. We can all do that. Ironically, avoiding the awkwardness increases the awkwardness. It's the most counterintuitive truth about this emotion. When there's an awkward moment that occurs and all of us are just doing the eyes darting sideways and no one's saying anything, that tension thickens. And all it takes is that one person to say, oh, okay, that was awkward. That was embarrassing. Let's flush that and move on. We look at that person and say, that's the confident person. The person who named it who diffused it, who owned it. That's the confident person. And so that is a muscle that any of us can build. The ability to get used to saying things like that in those moments, and the perception of confidence shoots up.

[B]

So there's this performance psychologist you may know and might have been on a stage with them, Dr. Michael Gervais. And Michael always talks about FOPO. Fear of other people's opinions.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And when I think about fopo, I think there's a direct correlation with awkwardness and also the hidden doubt that so many of us fear. What are your thoughts on that?

[A]

I love Michael Gervais work on fopo, and I think that is such a strong and succinct way to sum up what so many of us walk around with is our perceived lived experience. So there's a few pieces of psychology that really support this idea that FOPO is a phenomenon that we need to all work on. Number one is Elliot Aronson's work around the spotlight effect, right. That we believe people are looking at us with far more intensity and analysis than they actually are. We believe, oh, I tripped up my words in that presentation. Now everyone is staring at me. The spotlight is on me so brightly, so intensely. Yes, they heard you. But within seconds, the likelihood is they've already turned their attention either to the next thing you're saying or back to themselves. Do I have something in my teeth? Oh, I need to speak next. They're not looking at us with nearly the intensity that we think they are. The other one that I think is really interesting is one that's less talked about, which is the illusion of transparency. Again, some of us, when we're very embarrassed or feel very awkward, we might have some strong physical reaction, right? Some people get very red in the face. They get very sweaty. We can do things physiologically to work on that. We can work on our breathing. We can try to have movement before we need to present. We'll put that to the side for a second. For most of us, though, our stomachs might be turning, our face might feel hot. The illusion of transparency is that we believe that everyone can see all of that. Everyone is looking at us going, look at how nervous John is. He is losing his mind right now. That is an illusion. Most people can't see through us to that level of intensity. Again, not the outliers who are bright red and sweating and need to work on some physiological techniques, but the majority of us who are just feeling nervous, feeling anxious. People are not looking at us with that level of intensity. We are not as transparent in all of that. And when we know that, we can relax a little bit. Their opinion is not what we think it is in that moment.

[B]

I'm going to just take a little bit of a detour based on what you said. When I was at Arthur Andersen back in the day, they used to fly us all in, both Accenture and Arthur Anderson, to a campus outside of Chicago. And while I was there, one of the St. Charles is what it was called. They took an old. I think it was a girl's private school and turned it into a campus for both institutions after they split. But while I was there, we went through this course, and there was a former CIA consultant who came in, and what she focused on was helping us look at our own nervous habits, but also recognizing what subtle signs mean for someone who was buying our services. Meaning she would tell us, how could you pick up if someone was saying no or someone was lying or someone was not believing what you were saying? And then what are signs that you're giving off, even in subtle ways, that you're not confident, that you're unsure of how you're presenting or you're awkward in the moment. And it was really eye opening.

Yeah. Have you ever been through anything like that of someone, like critiquing your speaking?

[A]

Have I ever. I went through an intense public speaking training when I decided to become a professional speaker. And I knew that there were certain things that I was mindful of. Right. So I was told pretty early on, don't, you know, erratically pace the stage unless you have a reason to do, because it can be distracting. Right. If you want to appear confident, either stay centered and grounded or move with intention. Right. You can walk a little, but pacing makes you look nervous. So there were certain things I was aware of. Here's what I wasn't aware of. I was trying so hard not to pace. And I was taught, try to keep your feet hip width and try to deliver the message while being still. Well, John, apparently my nervous energy still needed someplace to go. So I remember my public speaking coach telling me, well, Hannah, now that you're not PA Facing, you are swaying, your feet are grounded, but you're doing this back. I'm moving back and forth. For those who are listening, I was swaying like a tree. I didn't even notice that I was doing that until it was pointed out to me. So this is part of. I think the takeaway of what you're describing is sometimes this work can be really reflective and done on your Own. Sometimes this work is really helpful to do with a partner, an accountability buddy who can help you bubble up some of the things that are your own personal tells or your opportunities. I had no idea I was swaying until someone told me that. Now I get into habits where before I go give a talk where I might be a bit nervous, I perhaps do some jumping jacks, or I work on taking some really deep breaths, or if I get a little bit nervous mid session, here's a little secret. If you ever see me do this now, you'll know what I'm doing. My hands might go behind my back for a moment. What you don't see is that I'm squeezing my fingers with all of my might to try to release some of the nervous energy that is built up in my body. But I'm doing it in a way that no one can see, right? And so there's little techniques we can use to help release some of that energy so that we don't appear awkward. We might feel it, you might feel it, but the goal is to not appear that way in certain settings.

[B]

Last year, I was the 1 MC for the podcast hall of Fame, and as we were prepping for it, as you're probably familiar at most keynotes that you do their monitors in front of you so that you can see what's coming up next. And in this case, I had to introduce a lot of people and thank a lot of sponsors and do this and do that. So I get up there, after about 30 seconds, the screen goes black. Been there and it's not coming back. And I am just like, what am I gonna do? And you can't let that on. But those are the things that I think. People never think it's gonna happen, but man, this stuff does happen. And luckily I had practiced. And so I went through it long enough that it eventually came back on, and I was able to get through it. But, man, was it an awkward moment.

[A]

I love that story. And it brings me to two thoughts. Number one is preparation. That one thing that will help you feel less awkward about anything, where possible, is prep. There's going to be unexpected moments that we'll have to deal with in real time. Then we work on our comeback rate. But for the things that feel awkward that we can prepare for, a presentation, a difficult conversation, preparation is underused, even though it's obvious. But the second thing your story reminded me of, there's a great story that Simon Sinek tells, and this comes back to our asking for help. He tells this story about how he was speaking on stage and in the middle of his remarks blanked completely, Just blank. He forgot what he was supposed to say next. And you know what he did in that moment? He asked the audience for help. He said, this is embarrassing. I have just completely blanked out. I completely have forgotten what I'm talking about, what I'm supposed to say next. Can someone remind me what I was just talking about? So an audience member shouted out and said, you were just talking about this. And he said, ah, yes, it was that. And he got back on track. He then goes on to share later that was one of his most highly rated speaking events that he's ever done. The audience loved that he had this human, admittedly embarrassing, awkward moment on stage. But rather than be Mr. Expert tough guy, he let them in and he asked for help and he moved through it. And that, to me, is where I think the world is headed. We are over this curated perfection. We are over. Not to take this in a left turn, but I think we're a little bit increasingly getting over this AI incongruence of people sounding so expert y in the written format online. And then when you speak to them, they don't sound a thing like that. There's a total incongruence. I think we're going to be returning to this space space where the stumble and fumble has such deeper value when we acknowledge it and honor it in a way that actually pushes our confidence forward.

[B]

I was just talking the other day to Scott Anthony, who, if you don't know him, he grew up for the 25 years working with Clay Christianson. He now teaches at Dartmouth, but he was talking about how the papers he's received have never been better in the classes that he teaches. So now he's taking it to the next level. And he makes the students then come in and present their material, but they have to do it without notes or anything else. I love this because he's finding that people aren't retaining at all what they're presenting in these papers. And so he wants them to really learn the information. So he's making them take this next step, which is you've got to go beyond using AI to really authentically understanding what you're talking about, which I think is really smart.

[A]

Love this idea. And again, that said, it's sort of master scale of taking entire paper and then resynthesizing it. But I think every leader who is trying to develop a team right now should take some version of that lesson into their teams. It's not even just about many of us have seen that new MIT Sloan research study about people who use generative AI regularly are having retention issues. They do it and then it's done. They're not retaining the information like you said. But more than that is the synthesizing of information. We're not even taking the time to make meaning out of what it is that we've read. And so what I love about Scott's exercise is if they don't have notes, they're not just retaining the information. They're actually being forced to make meaning out of what it is that they read and created, because meaning is what helps you remember and then create a version that you then repeat to the class. So I, Scott Anthony, thank you. I will be borrowing that exercise in my workshops. That's fantastic.

[B]

I'm going to switch gears here. You recently released a 2025 national study on social muscle atrophy. A lot of words there, but you say it's the silent organizational crisis. For listeners who are hearing this term for the first time, what is sma and why should people care?

[A]

Yes. So social muscle atrophy is the gradual weakening of our social skills due to underuse or a lack of meaningful practice. So sometimes thinking about that in the reverse is helpful. We can build social muscle strength in a few ways. It's through repetitions. So more opportunities to talk to people, to have a difficult conversation, to ask for help. But also not just reps. Meaningful practice, meaning the quality of the conversation, saying, hey, how was your day? And you, John, say, hey, it was good. Yes. Technically, that's a rep versus John. I feel really embarrassed. I really wanted to answer that question differently. Could we consider rerunning that segment? Because I don't like the way that I showed up. Right. All of a sudden, in the span of one sentence, I asked you something that was a little bit vulnerable. You got to learn something about me and the way that I like to show up in the world. That's a much more meaningful interaction than, hey, how are you? How was your day? So these are the types of things that in the hybrid, in the AI world, in the technology world, in the generational world, we have started to see decline. There's just not as much need to do these conversations in this way. And when you don't pick up a weight at the gym for a year, two years, three years, that next time you do that weight feels very difficult to pick up, and you certainly aren't going to pick up a very heavy one. Same thing metaphorically applies in our social skills. If we don't use them, we lose them. And if we don't try to have meaningful conversations from time to time, then it will be really difficult for you to ask for a promotion, to give difficult feedback, to ask for guidance from someone. We need to practice in the small ways.

[B]

Jonathan Haidt has really been focusing on the anxious generation and the lack of risk taking that so many boys and girls, young adults have walked into. And I think in some ways this kind of correlates to this social muscle atrophy in the form of risks. And so I wanted to ask, based on your research, how is this showing up differently across generations? And do you think that Gen Z is really reporting significantly higher struggles in this area?

[A]

Yeah, I wanted to make sure I had this stat right. 44% of working Americans in total find their workplace relationships to be superficial. But when we think about Gen Z, that number actually shoots up to 52%. So the highest of any generation. More than half of Gen Z look at their team relationships at work as superficial. Now, why is superficiality a problem? I'm not saying everyone needs to be best friends at work. I think that's an unrealistic standard. I don't think that's necessary. But when they're all considered absolute surface level and superficial, you don't know who at work has your back. You don't know who at work is safe to go talk to and say, I made a mistake and it's one that might really affect our bottom line. And I don't know who to tell. Right. Superficiality consistently through every peer is dangerous. The other interesting Gen Z statistic was we know that weak social skills actively drive turnover, meaning people will stay at a job even if they're making less money, if they have friends at work, if they feel like they have people who have their back at work. And while it is the number one challenge tied to organizational turnover for Gen Z in particular, gen Z reports 27% more social muscle atrophy related struggles than boomers. 27% more than boomers. This is a retention crisis. If this is the driver of turnover and Gen Z is struggling with it over a quarter more, then we need to think about how this actually plays a role in retention and turnover. Because again, boomers are experiencing it a little less and so they may not see it as clearly as the data shows.

[B]

I want to do a follow on this. So a lot of my work is focused on the science of mattering or belonging. And I really believe, as you were citing, weak social skills are actively driving turnover. I also Think that the way an employee feels, do they feel seen, valued and connected is also driving an undercurrent here and as part of the mattering deficit that is happening to so many companies. Would you agree with that?

[A]

100%. I feel like you and I could link our work with a four word phrase. How do they know?

How do they know if they're seen, valued, respected in the organization? If you want them to feel that they belong, the intersection between belonging and social skills is how do they know? It requires you to tell them. It requires you to have a conversation with them. They won't just get the vibe right? Not, how would my teenager say it, catching vibes. No, we're not catching vibes. You actually have to communicate to someone, I respect you, I value you, I appreciate what you do here. I see how hard you're working. That's where that social structure has to exist. And for some people that comes naturally. I, I jokingly tell people that I love to be people's hype girl. I will tell you, John, you're killing it on that podcast. Love that. I love the way you said that. I am vocal with my appreciation for others. It might need to be systemized. So my, my friend Neen James refers to it as systemized thoughtfulness. If you're not naturally someone who does, that's okay, no shame needed. But systemize it. Maybe on your calendar once a week. How can I reach out to a few key members of my team and make sure that they know they are seen, heard and valued? There was something that they did this week that I'm going to call out. Make it part of the fabric of your week. If it's not something that comes naturally if you want people to belong.

[B]

I want to talk about one of the most striking stories I found in your book. It was about a CEO who became beloved during the pandemic. Not because he was nailing his speeches or anything else, but because he let his kids interrupt. The dog was barking. And I've got two sitting here besides me who I'm glad are not barking.

[A]

Mine's over there.

[B]

Through zoom call after zoom call. What did all of that change for his employees?

[A]

So this CEO, just for context, was very buttoned up. Nobody ever saw him stumble on his words. He was a. I say this with love and no judgment. He was a teleprompter CEO. He was a notes reading CEO. His remarks were very much similar to a politician, were very structured, very planned. And that was what people had come to expect from him. He always had on A suit. He never dressed down. He was a formal CEO. And what happened in the pandemic is many of us who didn't have our home offices ready, which was many of us, you know, got it got thrown in. They're using whatever space in the house that was available. I believe he lived in an apartment in New York City, so there wasn't an extra room for him to dive into. So he was taking calls from the kitchen table, and there was no time to curate the background. So he may have thrown on a jacket, but like you said, the kids would run into the kitchen unexpectedly. The dog would bark. The shot behind him would be somebody moving back and forth.

[B]

And.

[A]

And he struggled with this at the beginning until he started to get feedback from his executive team that the company was loving it. So when he was delivering all hands messages or recording videos, again, he had to do what he had to do. It was early days of the pandemic, and everyone was like, oh, this guy does have a heartbeat. He does have some humanity. He's one of us. Right? There's a. There's an old. I don't read this magazine anymore, but when I was in my teens and twenties, I used to read Us Weekly, and there was a column called Celebrities. I think there still is Celebrities. They're just like us. And it's literally a column of celebrities just doing things right. Going to the grocery store, wearing sweatpants. It's ridiculous, John. It's ridiculous. And why do we love that column so much as a society? Because we put people on pedestals that they didn't ask for. And so these moments of just shared humanity, what he deemed an awkward moment for us felt very equalizing. It felt very encouraging. It allows us to then realize, oh, we have a kid pulling at our leg. We have a dog that's barking, and it's good business. And it actually improved his ratings measurably at the end of the year.

[B]

Well, the reason I brought it up, since we were talking about mattering, is I think that CEO story really is at the heart of the mattering deficit inside organizations, where so many of the leaders I had worked with seemed so distanced, polished, and unrelatable that it made working for them difficult. So how do you think good awkwardness helps close that gap? We just talked about this CEO, but how could other people, like, embrace this and in turn, make people feel like they matter?

[A]

So I think, again, we'll revisit a word we used earlier, which is ownership. What I don't want is fabricated awkwardness. Right? And oh, this is very difficult for me when it's not something that is actually difficult for you. I use a term in the book of faux vulnerability, right. So awkwardness I view as a stepping stone to vulnerability. And what we don't like and what we can all feel is when someone is creating a narrative unnecessarily. But what I do want to see leaders doing more is just letting their misgivings, their flaws, their blunders have a little bit more airtime rather than keeping them behind the curtain. So if you mispronounce someone's name and no one heard you, yeah, you can take that with you, you can have that, lay back and no one will ever know. But let's say you're in a meeting and there's another mispronounced name. That person feels embarrassed by it. Maybe you can then say, you know what? When I was preparing my notes, I brutally mispronounce this name. I had to practice it three times before we came into the meeting. That's an embodiment of good awkward. Having a moment that goes sideways in a meeting and then owning it in real time. There's a. My friend Bob Russo worked for IBM for years, and he says a great story about how his boss made a joke in a meeting. So head of the company executive made a joke in a meeting that did not get a laugh. Just. I don't know if it was off color or it just wasn't there. And the next thing out of his mouth was, well, that just went over like a fart in church.

Which I thought was just great. So everyone laughs. It pops the tension. But the bigger learning is he swung and he missed, and he made it okay for that to happen. And Bob said after that, the rest of the meeting people tried stuff that they didn't normally say out loud because he made it okay. So embracing awkwardness, taking all of the bad out of it, trying to find the good in it, is, in my opinion, a way to operationalize that psychological safety we talk so much about is lean in. Don't shy away. Lean in, own and model what you want other people to be doing.

[B]

Hannah, you and I haven't had a chance to talk about this, but when you were younger, you grew up feeling different. And I understand. Your hair, your lunch, your music tastes all made you feel different, and yet you transformed all that awkwardness into your superpower. For someone who's listening, who's still in that cringe paralysis, what's one small step they can take this week to step into their awkwardness?

[A]

I'm going to give you my favorite reframe just to if one thing, if this is all you do, I want you to leave this conversation thinking of this differently. There is no such thing as a factually awkward person.

No such thing. By definition, awkwardness is an emotion or a characteristic, and it is subjective. There is no such thing as a factually awkward person. So the very first thing I want you to do is choose the language you're using to describe yourself. If you are walking around this world saying, I am awkward, I am so awkward, I am too awkward to have this conversation. That is a limiting belief of your own design, what you're actually doing. And I would like you to change this language right now is, I am feeling awkward right now. I'm feeling awkward at this networking event. I'm feeling awkward about the comment I made in the meeting. I'm feeling embarrassed about the way that went down. A feeling is transient. A feeling is real, but it will pass. It does not define who you are. At a very minimum, before you get into the steps of naming it and using humor and all of that, I want you to please spend a little energy believing you are not an awkward person. You are a person who feels awkward from time to time, and that truth will set you free.

[B]

And maybe a follow up to that. Is. Is there one word you'd use to describe good awkward?

[A]

Brave.

Brave. I think if you can embody what it means to be good awkward, you are unstoppable. Every risk is in your reach. So brave.

[B]

Okay, how about this? The best leader you've ever worked with, who showed their awkwardness, how did they do it?

[A]

Oh, God. How do I choose? I'm gonna say recent. So this is somebody I have a partnership with now, but my friend Harry Wilson, he and I partner together with a firm called Limitless Minds, and it's a startup. So there has been ups and downs on this journey. And there was a meeting that we had, and what I admired so much is after the meeting, we got on a call and he said, hannah, I didn't really love how that meeting went, and I value your opinion. What could I have done differently? How could I have let that meeting go in a different direction? What could I, as a leader have improved on? I know asking that felt incredibly awkward. Veering on, vulnerable, right. There was some emotional exposure there. But to me, a leader that has the courage, the willingness to stay in the discomfort of a question like that is the marker of a leader who is adaptable, who is willing to adjust. And I was extremely impressed by it. So that was the most, probably the recent one I can think of.

[B]

If leaders and organizations continue to treat social skills as soft skills, what's at stake for their innovation, retention and culture?

[A]

Oh, gosh, I laugh that people still ask this question. Right. In the age of AI, hard skills are becoming easier to outsource, automate become repeatable through machines. Soft skills are not soft anymore. Soft skills are power skills. I think today we've seen some data that suggests that the three power skills are going to be communication, ability to hold and maintain boundaries, and public speaking, which is a form of communication. But these are the things that are going to be uniquely human when automation and AI can support the rest. And so I think anybody who considers these soft skills are going to find themselves very surprised when the very human nuances come into play and people work for people. I don't think that's ever going to change. So whatever skills are uniquely people skills, we all owe it to ourselves to see the future clearly and know that those will require again, I'm in my mid-40s. They're going to require a level of development that may have not been necessary in the past. We played on the streets, we figured out conflict negotiation, we figured out things today's leader are going to need to prioritize development of these skills. And I think that is going to become more and more apparent.

[B]

And lastly, Hannah, where can listeners go to learn more about you?

[A]

Oh, thank you, Hannah Pryor. In all the places, LinkedIn is my primary playground. But Instagram, Instagram, Ennaprior as well, and hennapryor.com is my website. You can find my Ink articles, you can find my LinkedIn learning courses. It's all there at my website.

[B]

Hannah, it's such a joy and honor to have you on the show. Thank you.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[B]

That's a wrap on today's conversation with Hannah Pryor. What I love about this episode is how it flips something we often avoid, awkwardness into a powerful green light for becoming. Because growth never arrives fully assembled, it arrives shaky, sweaty, unsure and new. Here are a few reminders worth first, if you're uncomfortable, it means you're expanding. Second, awkwardness is evidence that you're actively becoming and confidence is not the starting line. It's earned on the way. If Henna's message helped you today, please share this episode with someone who's holding back because they're worried they won't look perfect. And thank you for making episode 700 what it was and for helping Passion struck hit number one in health and wellness worldwide. This is your movement as much as mine. If you want tools and guidance to apply these conversations in your life, join [e-mail] my substack community for deeper intentionality. And if you want to help kids grow up knowing they matter, then consider pre ordering a copy of my new children's book, you Matter Luma at Barnes and noble or umatterluma.com Next week I'm sitting down with Boris McGuire and Ollie Raisin of Safarini Leadership, a transformational leadership program based in Kenya. They take executives out of the boardroom and into the bush, walking side by side with Sambura elders to relearn belonging, purpose and what leadership looks like when connection is a survival skill. I think in the west we are obsessed with time, right? And we're obsessed with who's first and who's the youngest. We can all name entrepreneurs like Mark Zuckerberg who became billionaires at 19 or 20. There are many successful entrepreneurs who build multimillion dollar businesses but they don't achieve it until they're 50 or 55. And that's just not interesting to us. It's not sexy. It's almost like we're over. We fetishize this idea that speed is the most important thing but and I think it speaks to the fact that in the west we are destination driven, whereas the Samburu it's much more about the journey. It's the life's path and how you get there is more important than where you end up. Until then, becoming isn't about looking polished, it's about choosing growth even when it feels awkward. I'm John Miles. You've been passion struck. Now go live like you matter.

[A]

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