How Real Optimism Helps You Thrive in Uncertainty | Deepika Chopra - EP 761

Summary

Passion Struck with John R. Miles: How Real Optimism Helps You Thrive in Uncertainty | Dr. Deepika Chopra (EP 761)
Aired: April 30, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this compelling episode of Passion Struck, host John R. Miles closes out the monthly “Purpose by Design” series with Dr. Deepika Chopra, clinical psychologist and author of The Power of Real Optimism: A Practical Science-Based Guide to Staying Resilient, Curious and Open Even When Life Is Hard. Their conversation dives into the true nature of optimism—not as blind positivity, but as a discipline rooted in resilience, realistic expectation, and the power to navigate uncertainty. Dr. Chopra draws from her personal journey, clinical expertise, and scientific research to equip listeners with actionable tools to cultivate real optimism in an era of widespread anxiety and disconnection.

---

Key Topics & Insights

1. Redefining Optimism: Beyond Positivity

• Optimism as a Trainable Skill:
  Dr. Chopra challenges the misconception that optimism means “staying positive” or wearing “rose-colored glasses.”
  “Optimism is not a personality trait, but a trainable psychological skill. I see it as a muscle—something we have the ability and power to work out.” (Dr. Chopra, 13:39)

• Curiosity and Resilience:
  Real optimism is about acknowledging struggle, remaining curious about the future, and trusting in one’s ability to adapt:
  “An optimist is someone mindful of setbacks, but they see these things as temporary and believe they can overcome them—even if they don’t know how or when.” (Dr. Chopra, 13:39)

• Optimism’s Foundation:
  It’s not about ignoring hardship but about living in the reality of difficulty and still allowing space for hope.

2. Personal Stories: Authenticity Amid Adversity

• Dr. Chopra’s Family Crisis:
  She shares writing her book while facing her young son’s rare illness, experiencing both paralysis and eventual resilience through using her own tools:
  “Writing the book is the only thing that got me through this… and I truly understand these tools from a personal point of view because I have lived them—in really imperfect conditions.” (Dr. Chopra, 06:38)

• Audience Relatability:
  John shares his sister’s battle with pancreatic cancer, highlighting how hope can coexist with hardship—illustrating that optimism isn’t about guaranteed happy endings but about maintaining purpose and possibility despite adversity.

3. Toxic Positivity vs. Real Support

• The Danger of Forced Positivity:
  Phrases like “everything happens for a reason” or “good vibes only” can invalidate genuine struggles, leading to shame or disconnection. “Toxic positivity can be sneaky… it usually comes from good intention, but at best, it doesn’t work, and at worst, it can be very detrimental.” (Dr. Chopra, 23:06)

• The Value of Validation
  When supporting someone, focus on safe, nonjudgmental presence rather than rushing to ‘fix’ things.

4. The Science of Optimism & Well-being

• Measurable Health Benefits:
  Studies show optimists live 11–15% longer and are more likely to reach age 80+ than pessimists. (22:26)

• Mattering & Belonging:
  John explores how mattering is foundational to optimism and resilience, with Dr. Chopra noting the role of early life signals that discourage the expression of negative emotions—fueling quiet suffering under the surface (“duck syndrome”: 27:43, 29:24).

5. Expectation, Manifestation & Evidence-Based Affirmation

• Power of Expectation:
  “We don’t always get what we want. We get what we expect.” (John Miles, 34:52)
  The brain only invests energy in outcomes it believes are possible, highlighting the importance of aligning desires with genuine belief.

• The Lottery Analogy:
  “You can want to win the lottery, but if you don’t expect to, you likely won’t even buy a ticket. The brain prioritizes expected possibilities.” (Dr. Chopra, 31:54)

• Effective Affirmations (“7/10 Rule”):
  Generic affirmations rarely work for those who need them most.
  “If you can rate an affirmation as 7 out of 10 in believability, it’s useful. Less than that—and your brain just argues back.” (Dr. Chopra, 38:31)

• Incremental Reframing:
  Start with small, believable affirmations, and allow your brain to collect evidence to support gradual change in self-belief.

6. Collective Uncertainty & the Crisis of Disconnection

• Rising Pessimism and Loneliness:
  Dr. Chopra references recent statistics:

  • Lowest level of future optimism in America in 20 years
  • Majority of people feel they don’t belong in their workplaces, communities, or nation
    “These numbers are staggering… People aren’t looking for positivity; they want tools to navigate everyday life.” (Dr. Chopra, 45:36)

• The Need to Engage with Reality, Not Numb Out:
  “We don’t need more people looking away—we need more people equipped to show up and stay engaged, even when it’s hard.” (Dr. Chopra, 45:36)

• Overstimulation and Evolutionary Limits:
  John brings up Dunbar’s number, explaining how our brains aren’t equipped to emotionally process global crises 24/7 (49:31).

7. Practical Tools for Cultivating Real Optimism

• For Parents:

  • Model Resilience: Children learn optimism by observing parents navigating struggle authentically.
    “The most important thing is modeling—focus on your own growth, show them your process.” (Dr. Chopra, 51:34)
  • Regulation Over Perfection: Safety and nervous system regulation are prerequisites for growth.
  • Language Shifts: Teach children to see setbacks as temporary (55:07).

• For Everyone:

  • Promote Awe and Kindness:
    Research shows awe reduces anxiety—seek it intentionally, even in small moments.
    “Awe is an antidote to anxiety—even more potent than some forms of gratitude.” (Dr. Chopra, 56:51)

  • Acts of Kindness as “Prescription” for Depression:
    Performing small, intentional acts of kindness improves well-being and counteracts the inward focus of depression. “One of the best things we can do is ask someone who is struggling to do something kind for another.” (Dr. Chopra, 56:51)

  • Daily Rituals & Self-Care:
    Grounding practices (e.g., 4-7-8 breathing) help regulate the body and mind, opening space for hope and solution-finding (53:34).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Authentic Optimism:
  “Real optimism doesn’t deny the dark. It gives us a way to see within it.” (Dr. Chopra, 18:37)

• On Expectation vs. Want:
  “You can want until the cows come home, but unless you expect it to happen, your brain’s not helping you with the steps to get there.” (Dr. Chopra, 35:05)

• On Belonging:
  “To me, mattering is really the core operating system that we have. If you don’t feel like you matter, it’s nearly impossible for you to make someone else feel like they matter.” (John Miles, 27:43)

• On Navigating Overload:
  “We are being stretched past what we were built to do… That’s why we need more tools that are based on reality.” (Dr. Chopra, 50:32)

---

Important Timestamps

• Main interview starts: [05:29]
• Dr. Chopra’s personal story on optimism during her son’s illness: [06:38]
• Defining real optimism: [13:39]
• Toxic positivity explained: [23:06]
• Impact of optimism on health: [22:26]
• Expectation changes action: [31:54], [34:52]
• The “7/10 Rule” for affirmations: [38:31]
• Societal pessimism, disconnection & mattering: [44:45] – [49:31]
• Practical optimism for parents & self-regulation: [51:34]
• The science of awe and kindness: [56:51]
• Where to find Dr. Chopra & resources: [60:24]

---

Conclusion

This episode expertly repositions optimism as a courageous, intentional practice—rooted in realism, humility, and hope—rather than a superficial insistence on positivity. Dr. Deepika Chopra and John R. Miles invite listeners to embrace discomfort, validate full emotional experience, and adopt practical tools that genuinely foster resilience, connection, and agency—even in the most uncertain times.

For More:
Find Dr. Chopra on Instagram, visit her website, or pick up The Power of Real Optimism wherever books are sold.
Explore John’s work at theignitedlife.net

---

Transcript

[SpinQuest Advertiser]

I'm here with spinquest where you can play and win from the comfort of your own home with hundreds of slot games and all of the table games you love with real cash prizes. Right now, $30 coin packs are on sale for $10. For new users, it's [e-mail] that's s

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

p I n q U-E-T.com SpinQuest is

[SpinQuest Disclaimer]

a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

Coming up next on Passion Struck We've

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

lived through right now. You have lived and gotten through all of your hardest days in x amount of decades of being here on this planet. And that in itself is the fabric and makeup of what you know. How we increase and cultivate more optimism to help us with our journey and navigating through the other struggles that might come our way or what we can expect for the hope that things will get better or go well. And optimism is so rooted in that idea of anticipation and expectation and again, rooted in your personal historical resiliency story

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

welcome to Passion Struck.

I'm your host John Miles.

This is the show where we explore the art of human flourishing and what it truly means to live like it matters. Each week I sit down with change makers, creators, scientists and everyday heroes to decode the human experience and uncover the tools that help us lead with meaning, heal what hurts, and pursue the fullest expression of who we're capable of becoming.

Whether you're designing your future, developing as

a leader, or seeking deeper alignment in your life, this show is your invitation to grow with purpose and act with intention. Because the secret to a life of deep purpose, connection and impact is choosing to live like you matter. Welcome back friends, to episode 761 of Passion Struck. I'm so glad you're here. Whether this is your first episode or your 200th, thank you for being part of this global community committed to living, intentionally leading with purpose in creating a

world where every person feels like they matter.

And today we arrive at the final interview in our monthly Purpose by Design series where we've been exploring a simple but profound truth. Purpose isn't something you stumble upon, it's something you design through your choices, through your identity, through your relationships, and through the stories you tell yourself about what is possible. Throughout this series, we've explored purpose through multiple dimensions. With Arthur Brooks, Harvard professor and best selling author, we explored meaning and why fulfillment is something we cultivate. With Claude Steele, Stanford's social psychologist and pioneering research on stereotype threat, we looked at identity and the hidden forces that shape who we become. With Diana Hill, clinical psychologist and teacher of wise effort, we explored how directing energy toward what matters most becomes a design principle for living. And earlier this week, with Nicholas Epley, University of Chicago professor and one of the world's leading social psychologists, we explored how even small acts of connection shape belonging, happiness and meaning. And perhaps there was only one place left to end this series with how we design hope itself. Because if purpose is shaped through meaning, identity, effort and connection, it is also shaped through how we relate to possibility. That's why I wanted to bring Deepika

Chopra onto the show.

Deepika is a clinical psychologist and author of the great new book Real A Practical Science Based Guide to Staying Resilient, Curious and Open Even When Life is Hard. Deepika challenges one of the biggest myths in modern self help that optimism means staying positive. She shows us something much deeper. Real optimism isn't denial. It's a disciplined relationship with uncertainty. And in today's conversation, we explore why optimism is a trainable skill, why positivity can sometimes undermine resilience. We go into how expectation shapes action more than wishful thinking, and why learning to face uncertainty may be one of the most important design choices we make. Because perhaps purpose isn't only designed by what we pursue or even by who we connect with, but by the possibilities we we allow ourselves to believe in before we dive in. A quick note if this show has ever positively impacted your life, please share it with a friend or family member, write a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and watch the full episodes on our YouTube channels. Now let's dive into my conversation with Deepika Chopra. Thank you for choosing Passion Struck and choosing me to be your host and

guide on your journey to creating an

intentional life that matters. Now let that journey begin.

[SpinQuest Advertiser]

You know what? It sucks to be bored. But when I get on my phone and play real casino games on spinquest.com, the time flies by. That two hour wait at the DMV seems like 10 minutes. Play your favorite slots live blackjack, live craps with a live dealer. New players 30 coin packs are on sale for 10 bucks. Play spinquest.com and you'll never be bored again.

[SpinQuest Disclaimer]

Spinquest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

I am so excited today to welcome Dr. Deepaka Chopra to Passion Struck. Deepaka, it's so nice for you to be here and so nice to meet you.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

Today we are discussing your brand new book, which I'm showing here for those of you who are watching, but for those who are who are listening, it's titled the Power of Real A Practical Science Based Guide to Staying Resilient, Curious and Open Even When Life Is Hard. Congratulations.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Thank you. Thank you. It's definitely no small feat. I know you just also have a book out as well. And I'm just so passionate to get this message and these tools amplified and out there for everyone that needs them.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

Well, I can't wait to discuss it. And you open the book with the story of one of your children's rare illnesses. And it must have been such an interesting time for you because on the one hand you're dealing with that, but you're trying to write about optimism in that moment, did optimism feel real to you or did it feel like a lie?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Honestly, it felt like cruel irony. I was a couple months into writing the manuscript and we, making a long story short, we went to the doctor, found something that seemed fishy, and everyone told us not to worry about it, including the doctors, of course. But I persisted. And within a couple weeks we were realizing that we were dealing with something very serious and actually not at all anywhere in the realm of anything we ever would have thought. And after first surgery, got handed some really awful news and my son, who at the time was two and a half, was diagnosed with something that was just shattering to our family. We, for me, at least I can speak on my experience with it, which was that I personally felt the most helpless and hopeless I had ever felt. And we had a long journey ahead of us, a year and a half of treatment that just seemed insurmountable. It seemed like a huge mountain and we have to do it. But no, the first couple months of it, I actually remember calling my agent, talking to the editor, being like, I don't know if I can do this. I feel like I don't have any shred of optimism within me. I don't know how I could do this. And I felt really paralyzed for a couple months and honestly, some level of paralysis throughout the entire experience. But in some other. More a different type of irony. I think, actually coming back to it and having deadlines and writing this book and having to actually live the tools and the messaging and write the language, think about the thoughts and all of that in real time. It sounds cliche, but writing the book, I think, is the only thing and the only reason that I got through this and that I kept showing up every single day, despite the Circumstances being awful. And to me, the full circle with that is I was just talking about this with somebody else a couple days ago with a friend of mine, and I said everything about why I believe in this book from a scientist point of view and from research, but I truly believe and understand it from a personal point of view because I have lived the tools and the pages of this book. This is the part that's important in really imperfect conditions. And that is really important to me because I think the tools that we give people need to work in all kinds of conditions. It's not just when things feel good. And this book is not about positivity and platitudes. It's science, it's storytelling, it's memoir, and it's client stories. It's a whole lot of everything to really meet you where you are, especially. Especially when you were going through something tough. And none of us are immune to struggle.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

Yeah. As I was reading the book, something that I caught was that your son had to take medication and he was too small to swallow the pills. And so the pharmacist said, crush it up and mix it with food. Just don't mix it with something he likes. And to this day, there are certain foods that, that people love, like pickles, that I just can't even practically look at or smell it. I was wondering, did my mom do something to me as I was growing up that jinxed me? Thank God she didn't put whatever it was in ice cream.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Well, we tried everything. He had treatment at the hospital once a week for a year and a half. And that was really tough. It was Tuesdays for us and Tuesdays just were dreadful. But every day we had to give him medication. And they were a form of. They were steroids and really high dosage. And when you're first given that task, it just seemed okay. We've done medicine before. We've done liquid Motrin or Tylenol, but he was only two and a half, so not much experience with that. But I had had a kid before him and so I said, this can't be that bad. Oh, it was one of the worst parts of the whole thing. Just feeling so. I remember the first time we tried, it was so awful. He spit it all out. Which then makes you feel like, I'm not able to give him this life saving medication. Like I'm so anxious about it. I hid under my office desk and I cried. And I remember saying, I cannot do this. Like I couldn't do it that day and I couldn't Imagine doing it every single day for over a year, and it just kicks something in you into gear. I became proficient in and an advocate in things that I never would have thought about before. Number one, there were liquid forms of this which we weren't even told about. We tried. That was pretty awful, too. We tried it in every single type of food to the wind, with the person that said, don't put it in the stuff. He's gonna. We had to try everything. None of it worked. I even tried it. It was awful. I couldn't believe that we were in the year we were in. And this type of medication, which is pretty prevalent, especially for people that need to suppress their immune system and are going through a diagnosis like my son's, could not believe that they had nothing better on the market. But I did end up, through research, finding my own research, that there was, like, a dissolvable pill which was more palpable. And the crazy thing is I. We started doing it, and he was able to take it, although every day was still pretty hard. We had a whole ritual around it. He had to take it twice a day. And. And then we went to the doctor, one of our treatments, and we told her, like, oh, yeah, it's going better because he's able to take it. And she said, what is he taking? And I showed her the medication that I found. I said, the pharmacist said it was equivalent, and she had never seen it. And so there was a level in this, too that was, wow, there's so much advocacy in healthcare. And I always knew it for myself, but I really understood it. Being the caretaker and advocate for my child, it really was something that there wasn't. Number one, this disease is so rare. They told us two in a million and chalked bad luck. But even within that, and even diseases that are known, I think there's just so much effort and education and advocacy that you have to navigate through and be willing to do in health care. And that, I think, is a piece of this that made sense. Something already so difficult, even more difficult.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

Thank you for sharing that. And I just wanted to make this real for the audience, so I appreciate you going into that. Deepika, you call yourself the optimism doctor, but you actually challenge one of the biggest ideas in modern self help, and that is optimism means staying positive. In your work, though optimism is something very different. What do you think real optimism actually means?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

So, first of all, I always love to preface this with I'm known as the optimism doctor. And this is truly what I am so passionate about. But I am not the most optimistic person myself and I know there's a lot to unpack there. I know the tools, I know the data. I feel like this is my calling and I feel really good at what I do, especially for other people. But I am just trying to work on and work through the tools in my everyday life just the same as everyone else. And although there is a genetic component to being optimistic, it's actually so much smaller than we ever imagined and most of it is learned. And so I personally was not lucky enough to be someone that I think the genetics were not necessarily in my favor, even in that small way. In my microcosm of family, I'm probably one of the more pessimistic people. But the amazing thing is I have really grown and cultivated my, what I call real optimism. And so I see optimism as not a personality trait, but as a trainable psychological skill. And I see it as a muscle and something that we have the ability and power to work out. And optimism, whenever I'm speaking about it to people, I always am curious and love to just ask, oh, what's the first word that comes to mind when you think of optimism? And of course it is usually a resounding positivity or being positive or the idea of seeing the glass half full or wearing rose colored glasses. And I think optimism on the whole as a notion has been really misunderstood. And so from a science based perspective, what we see with optimism and when we talk about the idea of optimism, I'm not really, I think positivity is being positive is a cousin of optimism. They're not interchangeable. I more associate optimism with ideas like resiliency and curiosity. Optimism is cultivated really through persevering struggle. An optimist is someone that is really keenly and mindfully aware of the roadblocks and the less than ideal situations and the setbacks that none of us are immune to. But the caveat is they see these things as temporary and something that they have the ability to overcome even if they don't know how or when. They just know that they will likely overcome it based on their own personal historical resiliency. And a great starting point also is you don't have to feel positive or good about an outcome to be optimistic. I think you just have to be curious and, and you have to accept that the situation is temporary. And even just that curiosity of like, how will this change? I'm not sure how it will, but how will it? I know it will, but I wonder how it will change even just Sitting in that is optimistic.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

We started this episode out talking about your son. I'm going to come now to my sister. So my sister, about five years ago, unfortunately got the news no one would ever want to hear. She was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. And I remember the call she made to me right after she had gone to MD Anderson, just sobbing. But once she kind of went through the phases that you do when you get a diagnosis like that, she was actually extremely optimistic because she always had this growth mindset and she that there were things that she could possibly do, whether it was changing her diet, changing her mindset, exercising, putting herself in the best possible position to be one of the lucky ones who can get Whipple surgery and survive this for the long term. It ended up not going that way. But what was interesting to me, per your definition, was even a person like her in the worst circumstances you could possibly imagine, was optimistic. And she actually, after getting the diagnosis, went back to a master's program to get a degree in social work and actually fulfilled her long term desire to help people because she thought given what she was going through, there were other people suffering and she would be a better therapist dealing with what she was dealing with. So I'm bringing her up because I think it shows what you're talking about that optimism doesn't have to equate with positivity. Actually, if you look at my sister, Viktor Frankl or others, they experienced optimism even during times of hardships. And does your research show that this is true?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Absolutely. First of all, I'm so sorry for that. She sounds like an incredible human. And I spent majority of my sort of clinical training as a psycho oncologist at UCLA and so working with oncology patients and their families. And it was really there that I had already been really focused on the idea of optimism, but it was really there that it was such a big part of my foundation and really formed how I think about optimism in that experience there. But that's very incredible. Yes, absolutely. In fact, I would say optimism is truly cultivated in those moments of struggle and hardship. And the reason for that is, again, because it is so closely tied to this idea of being fully rooted and grounded in your current emotional experience. So this is not about switching, swiping something underneath a rug, or being delusional. This is hard right now, but it's not the whole story. And it's not the whole story. So optimism lives in that. And it's important to really preface that it doesn't skip over the hard parts. I always say real optimism doesn't deny the dark, it just helps give us a way to see within it. And that's really important. And I think people their ideas of this optimism and thinking about it, they think that only is grown from the moments where we're feeling the happiest or experiencing joy or bliss. And really it's quite the opposite. And I think that when we persevere through a struggle and we've lived through right now, you have lived and gotten through all of your hardest days in X amount of decades of being here on this planet. And that in itself is the fabric and makeup of what how we increase and cultivate more optimism to help us with our journey in navigating through the other struggles that might come our way or what we can expect for the hope that things will get better or go well. And optimism is so rooted in that idea of anticipation and expectation and again rooted in your personal historical resiliency story.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

Before we continue, a quick note. If today's conversation is making you rethink what optimism really means, I want to invite you to go deeper. Throughout this Purpose by Design series, we've been exploring how we design meaning, belonging, resilience and possibility into everyday life. And that's exactly what I'm exploring each week on my substack theignitedlife.net through reflection tools, frameworks and workbooks designed to help you not just understand these ideas, but live them. If you want to go deeper into building a more intentional, resilient and ignited life, visit theignitedlife.net now. A quick break for our sponsors. Thank you for supporting those who support the show.

[SpinQuest Advertiser]

Whether it's slots or live dealers. Spinquest.com has the fun and action you're looking for with Spinquest exclusives blackjack, roulette, Baccarat, and even live dice with craps and bubble craps. The games never stop so you don't have to. And right now, new users get $30 coin packs for just 10 bucks. Play [e-mail] SpinQuest is a free to

[SpinQuest Disclaimer]

play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

You're listening to Passion Struck right here on the Passion Struck Network. Now back to my conversation with Deepika Chopra.

One of the things you write in the book is that optimism enhances our physical health in many ways. And a study you cite found that individuals who scored high in optimism lived on average 11 to 15% longer, and those who scored lower were significantly more likely to than pessimists to live to 80 or older. So it has some really strong health benefits. But one of the things I've covered a lot on the podcast is toxic positivity, which I think can do the exact opposite. And I wanted to talk about sometimes the harms that toxic positivity can cause.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Absolutely. And I always like to start the conversation of toxic positivity with I truly believe that when we are acting in the realm of toxic positivity, whether it's speaking to ourselves or people around us, it usually most likely, always comes from a good intention. It's just the way in which we're doing it. We start with this good intention, it actually at best doesn't work, but at worst can be very detrimental to either ourselves or the other people around us. And the reason I say that is for a couple different reasons. But when someone comes to you and they are offering an openness of going through a struggle or being upset in some way, experiencing a negative emotion, it's human nature for us to sit across from them to either A, want to fix it for them, we don't want to see them in pain. That is something that's uncomfortable for us, and we want to, as quickly as possible, bring them out of it because we truly want them to feel better, or B, we also want them to truly get out of this as quick as possible because it's uncomfortable. We experience discomfort in presence of their discomfort because then it starts to open up. Wait, where are these avenues in my life that are similar to this? And I don't want to experience this? And so it really comes down a lot of time to, again, good intention. But us being able to say with the feelings of discomfort and toxic positivity can be really sneaky. And it can be phrases that we all say that, again, come from a good intention. And we don't even know we're in the realm of toxic positivity. Like when you say everything happens for a reason or it could be worse. We're hoping that we're helping someone with a perspective shift, which sometimes can really work if we are ready for that. But oftentimes when it's said to us or we say it, it's an immediate response or reaction to when we are just in the opening of experiencing a negative emotion, which we are not at that moment ready to just turn that off and shut it off. It can be like good vibes, only it can look like, don't worry, be happy, things will get better right away. And so these type of phrases are forced positivity, which we know from a brain standpoint does not work. And it ignores difficulty. And I think that the hardest part of it is it vilifies us being able to experience and almost puts a shame on full human range of emotion, which we were actually built to experience. And I think, like, when people. And I don't know if you feel the same way just from your own interviewing and doing what you do, but I think the majority of the time when someone comes to us seeking support or wanting to open up and be vulnerable and tell us something that they're going through, the majority of the time they're not looking for a solution or to be fixed. The majority of the time they're just looking for a safe space to feel seen and heard and validated and really related to. And so I think we pressure ourselves, and that's where the toxic positivity sometimes can come in, because we feel like, oh, my gosh, we need to fix this right now for this person. They are coming to us. We want to help. We want to fix this. And I would say one of the better ways to remedying that is to allow yourself and the other person to sit in what they're saying and try to challenge yourself, to offer no solution, but to just offer a safe space and a place for them to be vulnerable. And you can still offer a response that's more rooted in real optimism, which acknowledges the difficulty that they're in and validates their experience and helps them and allows them to give them the space to process their emotion more honestly. And then always leaving this small room for hope, you know, not slapping a positive bumper sticker over it. You could remind someone while you're sitting with them and validating all of this that, listen, you've been through hard times before. I've been here for that. I've seen it, and I see this is a really hard time, and I totally understand why it is hard. Of course it's hard. So you're not saying, and it's all going to be okay, but you are reminding them that they've been here before, and at the same time, it's okay to be here and you're here to listen to them.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

I can completely relate to what you're saying, because a lot of the work that I do is not only for children, like my most recent children's book, but I really study the science of mattering. And I have a book coming out in October called the Mattering Effect. So I've actually interviewed over 100 leading scientists for this book. And two of the people I spoke to while researching the book were Susan Cain and Laurie Santos. And they were both talking to me about the toxic positivity that they were seeing on college campuses. In the case of Susan, it was going back to her alma mater, Princeton. And in the case of Laurie, it was Yale, where she teaches. And I think Laurie gave a great description in our conversation. She said, what's happening is so many of these students are experiencing duck syndrome. And what she was saying is they appear fine on the surface, but underneath they're just paddling and paddling with their feet as fast as they can go because they're not feeling seen, they're not feeling accepted. And I have to tell you, when you lose that sense of mattering, it's compounding, because to me, mattering is really the core operating system that we have. And if you don't feel like you matter, it's nearly impossible for you to make someone else feel like they matter. And so therefore, you're not going to get the reciprocal mattering felt back to you. And I think for so many of us, we're in such a hurry today that we're not giving that attention to other people like we have for millennia before. The times we're living in now. Do you relate to that?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yes, absolutely. And I think we're taught at an early age that there is no room for negative emotions. It is either a waste of your time and energy, or it is bothering whoever it is that you're telling it to. And so we hear that enough, see it enough, feel it enough. And oftentimes these can be silent cues in how people react. And again, sometimes they are coming from our own insecurities and inability to live in discomfort. But whatever it is, we are taught this at a young age. And so then we get to a place like college, and that makes perfect sense why there would be so much I see in elementary school, so much paddling underneath the surface, performance on the top surface, and wanting to take less space and just make sure things like you're easygoing. And the idea of always being in forward motion. And I think that's really important to be in forward motion. But in order to truly be in forward motion, you can't discount what's happening below the surface. And the only way to change that, again, is to help yourself by being a model around other people and by giving other people in your own small networks. And really, this is something that you can do literally today in your own small community and network. It is trying to challenge yourself to allow the people around you to experience their full human range of emotions and try to sit in that discomfort and not discount or vilify that experience.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

Thank you for sharing that. I wanted to move the discussion to the topic of expectations, manifestation, and the brain. And as I was doing research on you, I realized you and I do something similar, but a little bit different when we both do public speaking. I oftentimes plant a golden ticket under one or two of the chairs in the audience, and I start with an ice break about who's got the golden ticket. And the golden ticket, if they win it, is they win a copy of my book. But what they don't realize is typically if they get the golden ticket, it also means I'm likely going to bring them up on stage for an exercise. So they have to earn the book.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

But you do an example where you ask the audience who wants to win the lottery.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yeah.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

And what ends up happening? Do people raise their hands?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yeah. So it's really to illustrate this idea that I think we spend a lot of time, especially when we're talking about this term manifestation, which nowadays is so mainstream. And I think most people understand the concept of it. And some people define it so well, really with neuroscience in mind, and a lot of other people don't. And I think there's some missing pieces from a neuro and brain standpoint that are really imperative for people to understand if they're talking about that. One of the things that I love doing is asking people this is really rating something that they want and putting it up against something that they really expect, expect to occur. And so I will sometimes ask a large group of people, how many of you guys would want to win the lottery, given the chance, would you want to win the lottery? And of course, everybody, most everybody raises their hand, I'd love to win the lottery. And there's always a couple that are, I don't want to win the lottery. That's very rare. But no, I'm not going to participate. But for the most of the audience, people are all raising their hands. And then I ask if you bought a lotto ticket this morning, keep your hands raised. And very few times are any hands still held up. But there are a couple. The majority of people's hands quickly go down and there's some chatter. And I think it just makes perfect sense. It's not a surprise if your brain does not expect something to occur. And that could actually be a likely possibility. It doesn't put forth the attentional capacity or prefrontal cortex, start turning on to give you solutions, to start taking actions to put you in A place where you're actually likely to make this one want into a reality or materialize it. And so you can want to win the lottery, but if you don't expect that you're going to win, you're most likely not going to buy a lottery ticket because it seems like a waste of energy and time. And so that makes a lot of sense. And it honestly is part the way. It's part of our brain working in the right way. It's an efficiency process and we have a limited attentional capacity. It cannot tend to everything. So it prioritizes things that it can actually expect to occur. And so when I work with people, I'm working a lot within that gap and closing that gap of want and expectation.

[Bretzky (SpinQuest Promoter)]

What's up baby? It's Bretzky and I'm here to tell you that spinquest.com is giving out free free Sweeps coins. All you got to do is purchase a ten dollar coin pack and guess what? They're gonna give you the coins from a thirty dollar coin pack that lets you play all your favorite games like Blackjack, Wanted Dead or Wild. And we're talking real cash prizes, baby.

[SpinQuest Disclaimer]

Spinquest.com Spin Quest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

You say something fascinating that I've heard you say in a couple other interviews, and that is we don't always get what we want. We get yes. And why are expectations so powerful in shaping our behavior and outcomes?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

They're so powerful because again, your brain prioritizes putting forth all the steps and necessary attention and solution focus into the things that it deems possible to happen and likely to happen. And you can want until the cows come home. But unless you expect it to happen, your brain's not helping you out with all the different things and the pathways that you need to actually put yourself into taking an action, like buying a lottery ticket. Or if you do not, you could want a relationship so badly, you can think about it, you can cut out words related to it and stick them on a piece of paper, you could really rate 10 out of 10. I want to be in a relationship. But then if I ask that same person 1 to 10, how much do you expect or believe that this is going to happen for you? And if that's somewhere living in three or four, your brain is not putting forth the energy or the attention or the pathways to connect you to doing and taking part in the behaviors that would actually likely get you to be in a place. Like, for example, you most Likely are not thinking or saying yes or open to the idea when someone invites you somewhere or putting yourself in a situation where meeting somebody that could be a future partner is likely to happen. And so until you close that gap and you see it more as a possibility, we don't have the brain and the way it works on our side. And that is a powerful mechanism. And so I think we skip that part a lot. We skip it over on what am I truly expecting to happen? What do I really think? I know what I want, but how likely do I think that it can occur for me? And this is not magical thinking. It's literally thought emotions and behaviors and taking action. And I think another piece that's missing in the process is most always these things take work and there is a journey and it's not about thinking about something and then expecting that. It just falls into our lap. There's a lot of process in between that and, and it is a powerful process. We can, our thoughts are so powerful and we can think about something and change our expectations and remove and soften really concrete, negative, self limiting beliefs. We can do all these things, but they take time and practice and work and they're not impossible. But it's also not a passive process.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

Yeah. When I think about manifestation, which has become so hugely popular, I often think about the story of Matthew McConaughey and how a decade ago or so he wrote down on a piece of paper these things he wanted to happen in his life and for him they've all seemed to come true. But for a lot of people, they do vision boards, affirmations, they ask the universe for things and some oftentimes it doesn't come true. You talk about evidence based manifestation, which you were alluding to and having to do the real work to make these things come true. What happens with evidence based manifestation? So people can actually put these affirmations to work in a way where it'll help their brain rather than work against it.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

And you bring up another sort of buzzword and that's affirmations. And I think most people, the way they use affirmations are they use generic blanket statement affirmations. We've all heard many of them. I am capable, I am strong, I am lovable, whatever those are. We have these affirmations that we're told that are really powerful and affirmations, because thoughts are powerful and beliefs are powerful, they do work. But there is a big caveat with it that I think we overlook. So first of all, research shows us that affirmations actually don't work, for the most part, for the people that really, truly need them. And if you're someone that believe, you know where I think blanket statement, generic affirmations do work. They work most always with children. Because kids have not yet racked up years and years of experiences and interpretations of situations that have now cemented into core beliefs or really hard, rigid beliefs about stuff. Like, they don't have that in them. They're so much more malleable and flexible, and everything's an opening. And so I think a generic affirmation that's a positive affirmation is great for kids. And then over time, as we grow up and we have our own experiences and appraisers, all the situations that we go through, and we start collecting them as evidence. I'm a big believer that the brain is constantly collecting evidence. We're like detectives. And the more we do this, first of all, we make a belief, and then from that, our brain loves to collect more evidence to make something we believe even more true. And so then that belief has become further cemented. And we just go through life because we're tuned into that radio station constantly and quickly seeking out ever more evidence to make whatever that belief is more and more true until it becomes a core belief. And this process over time just becomes automatic because again, it's part of our brain sufficiency. And sometimes that can be a good thing, and a lot of times that can be a detrimental thing. And so when you tell someone that has collected enough evidence and has cemented a belief strongly enough over 40 years, 30 years, even 20 years, that they believe something like I am unlovable. And then you tell them to just look in front of the mirror and say, I am lovable, deserving, I'm a deserving of love person. I'm lovable three times before bed and three times when they wake up, that is the place where it can become not just not useful, but actually detrimental. Because now your brain starts to resurface and almost a opening a file in a computer, it clicks on the file of I am unlovable. And it starts. All the other files within it and documents start populating of all the reasons why you are not lovable and the reasons why you do believe that belief. And how silly of you to ever think that you would say this statement. That is the complete opposite. And now not only do you further believe what you believe, but you also feel shame and guilt and a real dip in confidence for even saying that other thing out loud. And so it can be very Detrimental to people that are really holding this self limiting belief that need it the most. And so I have come up with something that I call the 710 rule. And I really believe in measurable, quantitative ways to work within these constructs and these tools. I come from a cognitive behavioral background, so I love things that are measurable and I love rating things. And I would say if you 10 being, you believe it the most, it's so true for you, zero being, you believe it the least, it's not true at all. If you can rate an affirmation, a positive affirmation, 7 out of 10 in believability, then it is a affirmation I think would be really helpful to use and go seek out more affirmations like that. And you will if you start repeating those. That's how the brain works. But if it is under 7 out of 10, then we need to come up with different affirmations that are similar and in the same realm, in the same direction, but not that affirmation and that you actually believe it's 7 out of 10 so that it can be useful to you. And once you find out what those are. So in that example, if the person's really wanted to use the affirmation of I am lovable, that they believe it like 2, 1, even 0, then we want to start asking them like, what is one thing that you do like about yourself? Just one thing. And sometimes it's hard for people to come up with, but for the most part, after some probing, you can get someone to at least say one thing that they like about themselves. And maybe it's I'm a good friend, or I really like the way that I cook, or I like that I'm reliable, you know, whatever that is, or I think I'm kind, or whatever that one thing is, they pick one thing that they like about themselves. We rate that. If that makes the cut of 7 out of 10, we use that as the affirmation. And you say that enough times, the way the brain works is it seeks out more evidence and proof to add to that, to make it more true. And then you have this like bubble of within a couple weeks, maybe three to five more believable affirmations that are like that. And over time, maybe in a couple months you might not be able to yet say I'm a lovable person, but you certainly have enough evidence to go against your initial belief of I am not lovable and I am not deserving of love from people. And so you want to slowly start softening and Chipping away at the negative self belief without doing a driving down the highway 150 miles per hour and asking someone to make a turn in the other direction, crash and burn.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

What you're talking about though is fundamentally so sad, honestly, how many people feel that way. And the statistics, I'm just going off on a tangent here are pretty eye openening that 64% of workers feel like they don't belong in their work environment, 68% of people feel like they don't belong in the United States and 74% of people in America don't feel like they belong in their communities. And there's something fundamentally going on.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Yeah.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

Where so many of us are living in an inauthentic version of who we think we should be and we wear all these masks to perform a different version of us. And I think that is what is leading so much to the loneliness, hopelessness, whatever you call it, that so many people are surprised.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Just last month there was a survey done and a study done and we are living in terms of our future optimism in America. It is the lowest it's been in 20 years. And I think that stat, or even just hearing it or some of the stuff that you're bringing up, which is so true because now we're talking a lot about this idea of not feeling connected. And we know that connection and again, mattering is a big part of that. Connecting with others, we are social creatures is the hallmark of well being and the Harvard longitudinal study that came out a few years back and we know that the single most important factor to predict happiness and a sense of contentment is our level of connection with other people. These numbers are staggering on people in this country not feeling like they belong and that they have a space or a place. And I think that this pessimism that we are in the most pessimistic state we've been in in over 20 years is not a surprise. I think so many of us can be like, well, have you woken up? Do you know what we're living through? Every day feels like a struggle. And that's why I think this work and the tools in the power of real optimism are so timely and so important and really honestly urgent. Because I truly believe that the answer to this is not to look away. And I think a lot of people think, well, we're just not, we weren't meant to be exposed to this much all at once. And that is true through we were not, our brains were not built for that. And there is an aspect of that where we need to work on boundarying, like how much information and stimulation we are exposed to. Of course. And that's something else that I want to talk about and the nervous system. But the point is, I've been sharing this new stat and people are kind of just like, yeah, well, duh. And for me, that stat was not, yeah, duh, of course. I know that's not surprising. It wasn't a stat. That is. Whoa. I would never have thought that. But it is a stat. And some of the ones you listed too, that are astounding enough that we are like, this should make us want to do something. Like, we need to change. And what it tells me is that people are not looking for positivity. They are looking to be equipped with the tools to navigate through everyday life. And that is what I am passionate about and what the book is about. It is giving people the tools so that they don't look away and they're not being numbed out and paralyzed by the fact that. Or desensitized. Because every day feels like you just read the headlines or you wake up and you just start your day and there's 50 things that have already happened that should be shocking to you. But you heard the same 50 things yesterday, or maybe 44 of them the day before, and now you're almost becoming apathetic. And because it's a survival method we don't have. We were not. We can't carry everything the way we are carrying it. We need a new way. And so these tools are equipping ourselves to be able to show up, stay engaged, still be deeply caring about our own lives and about the world, but have a way to carry it and walk through it without numbing out. And I think that is really important and something we don't necessarily teach. And it is important to learn these tools. We have it within us. They are again, they are trainable, and it is like a muscle. And if there's one thing I think we need, it is to learn these tools so that we can keep showing up and staying engaged, because that's important. We need to still be engaged with our community. We are social creatures, and that's that part. We need to feel like we matter.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

Are you familiar with Robin Dunbar?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

No.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

Oh, so runbar. Robin Dunbar was a British anthropologist and came up with this, what's called Dunbar's number, which is that we are wired evolutionary with wise to have no more than 150 connections. And I think I've done some solo podcasts on this topic, and one of the Things I think that's happening is we in the world now are essentially being asked to be present for what's happening to. To 7 billion people instantaneously. So negative things that are happening across the world, we're supposed to be an expert in them or think we're held to that standard. And evolutionary wise, there's no way that we can do it. So there's just a huge mismatch between what's going on. And there's no wonder people feel so exhausted and overwhelmed by.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

We are being stretched past not even what our capabilities are. We are stretched past what we were made built to do. And so I think that's so right. And that's true for so many different. It's true in the attention space, it's true in the emotional space. It's a really tough time. And that's why I think we need more tools that are based on reality. And so for me, it was really important to write down a collection of real optimism tools for real humans living real lives in two, 2026. It is important to meet people where they're actually at and what we are collectively going through.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

When our time left, I wanted to give the audience a couple practical tools. So since becoming a mom, you focused on helping a lot of parents raise more optimistic children. What are the most important things parents can do to cultivate resilience and optimism in their kids?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Like the most important thing. And I think many of us think we have to have the perfectly curated sort of response and teaching moment when our kids are going through a struggle or when they share something with us. We need to have this curated response that has all the lessons and the teaching moments in it. And the truth is, our kids don't necessarily learn that way. Our kids learn from modeling. And so if you yourself are open to the idea of growing and you're working on your own real optimism, and you're doing that in your daily life, whether it's really small or you have significant strides. Your kids are watching this, and that is how they learn. They learn through watching you persevere, through your struggle and your tough moments. And. And so, number one, don't shy away from showing them that process, but focus on your own growth. And I will say something really important that I didn't say before, but this works here too, that our brains prioritize safety and survival over growth. And so we can have all the tools, we can construct the best rituals and read all the books and listen to the podcast. But unless you, you truly feel safe and regulated and that is, from a nervous system standpoint, your brain can't focus on growth. And so the first and foremost step is to show your kids, by working on yourself, how important it is to be regulated and to be feeling a sense of safety and whether that are really small. Sometimes I will be like, wow, I saw this meme the other day, and I was talking about it with a friend, but it was of like a mom answering her child. And she's answered back really perturbed and annoyed. She was like, what? And then she. You see her in her face being like, okay, I want it. That was not right. And then she does it again, and she keeps trying to ground herself to say it better, but it comes out the same each time because she is up to here and she's running on empty. And so I take that a step further, where I have definitely, multiple times a day, been in a state like that. And I will out loud tell my kids and be like, I feel I'm running on empty and I need to just do something for a moment that helps me. That's a tool for me. And then I'll come right. I'll be right back and it'll be 15 seconds and I might. For me, I know I love helping people come up with their own unique toolbox. And I now know what mine are. And I think just sharing that in your daily life with everybody, you know, like, I'm like, I need to do a 4, 7, 8 breathing right now and take that time to reset and then be like, okay. It doesn't change the circumstances, it doesn't buy you more time, but it shifts your physiology. And when you shift that, your brain is a little more open to possibility and solution. You can't really operate from empty all the time. And even if it's a short. And I think what people don't understand is the beauty of this. And the thing that makes me so optimistic are there are so many different small ways to do this that literally take 15, 30 seconds. Again, it's not magic. It doesn't change the circumstance, but it helps us navigate better throughout it. I think modeling is probably the biggest thing. The second thing I would say is really to start to shift your language. And language is really important when we're talking about real optimism. And we want to try and shift, especially when we're going through setbacks or roadblocks in our daily life, we want to shift from the automatic of saying, of course this happened, this always happens, or this is always going to be this way, and we want to Help and shift back to that explanatory style of teaching that this is temporary and yes, this sucks, but this is temporary or like really making something specific and not pervasive. So shifting our language. Wow, that person cut me off. That sucks. Like I'm allowed to say that, but not. Ugh, this always happens to me. It's always going to happen to me, and so forth.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

And the last thing I just wanted to briefly touch on is your chapter 10, which is really about the science of self care. And one of the things that you had in here is I'm a huge fan of Dacher Keltner, University of California, Berkeley, and he writes a lot about awe and how do you experience in everyday life? And I love his concept of moral beauty. I probably talked about it more than any other concept. And I actually, in my children's book, put this into life because I've created a whole platform called Past the Ripple where his moral beauty is all about everyday acts of kindness or how you experience awe in the most pervasive way and you can do it every day. So I thought, what a great way to teach kids that they can experience awe by performing acts of kindness. And acts of kindness is something that you like to talk about as well. So I was hoping we might be able to end here. And what practices do you suggest that listeners can do to implement this more in their everyday life?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

I love awe and the studies that came out so recently on the power of awe and actually how it's such an antidote for anxiety and is actually more potent than even like forms of gratitude for anxiety. Gratitude is very powerful and has a lot of research behind it. But I think I was so excited to read that research when it came out. It's my favorite type of tool to weave in into my work as well. So I understand why you're so drawn to it. And I think the interesting part of that is like, we can really find awe in the most small, mundane moments and we can be intentional about the ah. And so we can actually intentionally seek it out on purpose. And I think that's the point of all of this, is these can be the set of tools and you could listen and be like, wow, huh. That. That makes a lot of sense. But you. We. These are not things that necessarily from an evolutionary standpoint, we are predisposed to doing naturally. These are things that we have to intentionally make time and space for and create. And so, yes, like seeking out awe, whether it is whatever can bring you off, for me, it's a piece of Music. And if I notice myself getting lost in it and transcended, that is awe to me. And I mark that down and I revisit it. Or experiencing awe comes from being present. So when you go out for a walk or you look out of your window, you asking yourself, like, what am I truly seeing right now? And you'll notice things that were always there. The tree that was always there outside the window. But just, just today, because you're asking yourself to zoom in on it and focus it the way that it is moving in the wind against the backdrop of the sky, that can bring you this sense of awe, which is this feeling of being transcended, inspired, or feeling like you are a small part of something much bigger. And there's a lot of protective measures, psychologically in awe. And yes, so much research done on spiritual, small, big, all kinds of acts of kindness. Something that I always like to throw in is acts of kindness is actually protective against depression. And so I thought that was really interesting. I talk about it a lot. When someone is going through depression, our intuitive response is to not burden them, of course, with anything. We'd love to help, but we're not going to burden them with asking for help when someone is experiencing that level of struggle. But really, research shows one of the best things we can do is actually ask them for help, is to help put them in an experience of doing something kind for somebody else. It is literally like a prescription. So the next time you have a friend that is struggling, obviously if it depends what type of struggle it is, but is emotionally struggling and you needed, I don't know, an airport pickup or you were going to go volunteer somewhere and you thought, oh, I'm not going to ask them because they're obviously burdened. Try to put yourself out there and think of it as a way of helping them and ask them to come with you and volunteer. Like you could be very well giving them the tool and the skill that they need that is really helpful to put them in a place that is protective against the pervasive inner spotlight that depression makes you feel and help you feel. Help them feel connected and part of something bigger and a sense of self mastery even.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

And lastly, for listeners who have tuned in today and want to learn more about you, your practice and where they can get the book, which will be everywhere here in a couple days, where's the best place to go?

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

So you can always say hi to me on Instagram. I'm not great at all the socials. I pick one, that's the one I'M on. I love having conversations about all of this. I answer all the dms. It's really me. Please, please reach out to me. That way you could reach out my website. I also have a deck of cards that are really great for kids and for adults called Things Are Looking Up. You can look up that website. But yes, the book the Power of Real Optimism is available everywhere you buy books. Please buy the book, shoot me a message, talk about it with me and share the book and the message and this movement of real optimism with everyone you know. Because I truly believe that is the the antidote to the collective experience and uncertainty and heaviness we are all feeling right now.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

Well, it was such an honor to have you on the show today and congratulations on this fantastic book, the Power of Real Optimism.

[Dr. Deepika Chopra]

Thank you so much, John.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

That brings us to the end of today's conversation with Deepika Chopra. And what stood out most to me is this we often think optimism means believing everything will turn out exactly as we hope. But Topeka reminds us something far wiser. Real optimism isn't certainty. It's courage in uncertainty. It's the willingness to face difficulty without surrendering possibility. And maybe that's the deeper lesson of this entire Purpose by Design series. Purpose is designed through how we relate to meaning, to identity, to effort, to connection, and ultimately to possibility. Because maybe the future isn't shaped most by what we wish for, but by what we expect enough to move toward. And maybe optimism.

Real optimism is one of the most

courageous forms of intentional living there is. And that insight leads us into a powerful new chapter. Next week we begin a brand new series that I'm calling Forged in How Struggle Shapes Meaning, Resilience, and Transformation. We open it with Kathy Gaeste in a conversation called From Fatal to Fearless

Turning Crisis Into Calling.

It's about what happens when adversity doesn't just test you, it transforms you. And you won't want to miss it.

[Oncology Expert]

I think the fear of relapse is what survivors struggle with the most. Because whenever you have a certain ache or pain or things happen, your automatic instinct is to think the cancer is back. And it does happen. In multiple myeloma, we have survivors that have been out 10 years in remission and it still relapse. It does happen. That's why we continue to force progress on new treatments and oncology has seen unbelievable advancements. Thank God.

[John Miles (Host, Passion Struck)]

If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who may need a new way to think about hope. Watch our podcasts at our YouTube channels and explore more [e-mail] until next time. Remember, purpose is not discovered all at once. It is designed through effect. Thousand conscious choices I'm John Miles and

you've been passion struck.

[Bretzky (SpinQuest Promoter)]

What's up baby? It's Bretzky and I'm here to tell you that spinquest.com is giving out free sweeps coins. All you got to do is purchase purchase a ten dollar coin pack and guess what? They're gonna give you the coins from a thirty dollar coin pack that lets you play all your favorite games like Blackjack, Wanted Dead or Wild. And we're talking real cash prizes baby.

[SpinQuest Disclaimer]

Spin Quest.com Spin Quest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.