Passion Struck with John R. Miles

Episode 696: James Kimmel Jr. On Why Your Brain Loves Revenge
Release Date: November 28, 2025
Guest: James Kimmel Jr., Yale lecturer in psychiatry, author of "The Science of Revenge"

Episode Overview

Host John R. Miles sits down with James Kimmel Jr. to explore the neuroscience behind revenge, its roots in addiction, and how cycles of retaliation shape lives, societies, and even our sense of self. Kimmel, calling himself a "recovering revenge addict," unpacks how seeking payback lights up the same brain circuits as drug use and why that knowledge could be the key to breaking life-destroying cycles of grievance. The conversation is grounded with personal stories, scientific evidence, and new practical approaches for healing the urge to strike back.

Main Themes & Purpose

• Core Question: Why does the human brain crave revenge—and how can we break the cycle?
• Purpose: Challenge the moral framing of revenge as a character flaw, reframing it as a neurological loop akin to addiction.
• Intended Takeaway: Once we understand how revenge operates in the brain, we can find ways to short-circuit its pull, foster forgiveness, and live with greater intention.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Origins: A Brush with Revenge (07:12–18:03)

• James Kimmel’s Farm Story: Moving to rural Pennsylvania, Kimmel’s family is ostracized and bullied by neighboring farm kids, leading to years of escalation.
• Defining Moment: After a beloved family dog is killed and the police do nothing, Kimmel comes within seconds of seeking violent revenge on his tormentors.
  • Quote: “With that detonation went what was left of my self-control … I grabbed that revolver … and I took off after these guys, just shouting and screaming in rage.” (14:43)
• Critical Insight: In a moment of clarity, he chooses not to become a murderer, altering his trajectory and resulting in the bullying ending.

2. From Law to Neuroscience: Revenge as a Career and Curse (24:07–31:24)

• Legal Career & Revenge: Kimmel describes the legal profession as a socially sanctioned outlet for revenge, comparing lawyers to “dealers” and clients to “users” addicted to the highs of litigation victories.
  • Quote: “Going through lawsuits … these little wins make you feel really good for a moment. Like these little hits, this little pleasurable, yeah, that feels good … It infected the way I interacted with my wife and kids.” (26:18)
• Burnout & Shift: Realizes the pursuit is at odds with his values; spiritual and academic quest follows to understand why retaliation is so powerful and damaging.

3. Revenge is an Addiction: The Neuroscience (37:17–47:29)

• Groundbreaking Science: FMRI studies show the brain on revenge activates:
  • Anterior insula (pain)
  • Nucleus accumbens (pleasure/reward/dopamine)
  • Prefrontal cortex (decision-making/self-control)
• Addiction Parallel: Fantasizing about payback provides a dopamine “high” similar to gambling or cocaine. Most feel the urge, only some act—the classic 80/20 split seen in addictions.
  • Quote: “The same pleasure and reward circuitry as addiction … your brain on revenge looks like your brain on drugs.” (13:13, 41:54)
• Societal Cost: Revenge is the primary motivator in nearly all forms of human violence, from bullying to genocide.

4. Revenge’s Ancient & Universal Story (36:59–40:57)

• Cultural Scripts: Scriptural tales (Cain & Abel, the Flood) and epic literature (Homer) show revenge as both omnipresent and disastrous.
  • Quote: "What goes on there … God is angry and God decides to punish … but at the end … God has a true moment of remorse and reflection ... I just destroyed everything that I love." (37:17)
• Normalization & Institutions: Retaliation is baked into history, law, and even religious teachings—sending mixed messages that often sanctify violence.

5. The Modern Amplification: Social Media and Spectacle (47:29–50:27)

• Public Orgies of Revenge: Just as Rome had gladiator games, today’s social media algorithms amplify grievance, outrage, and mass retaliation for profit.
  • Quote: "One of the most reliable ways to cause people to engage and stay on [social media] is to give them grievances ... and opportunities to avenge those injuries ... we're at a really dangerous, vulnerable moment as humanity." (48:00)

6. Breaking the Cycle: From Non-Justice to Forgiveness (51:16–58:49)

• Addiction Recovery Approaches: Kimmel launches Revenge Anonymous, a 12-step program; advocates for therapy, cognitive behavioral techniques, even possible future pharmaceutical interventions.
  • Quote: "Forgiveness is actually a neurobiological wonder drug that we're all wired to self-administer … it turns off the pain network, shuts down the pleasure and reward circuitry of revenge, and reactivates your decision making.” (51:16)
• Non-Justice System (NJS): An app-driven “courtroom of the mind” (Miracle Court) lets users play out fantasies of justice, then introduces the healing power of forgiveness.
  • Quote: “We should go to that courtroom inside our heads ... put on trial anyone who's ever wronged you ... but you play all the roles." (55:08)
• Forgiveness is for You: Letting go isn’t weakness, and isn’t about the perpetrator—it’s self-healing.
  • Quote: "Letting go means you win. Forgiveness is for you, the victim, it's not for the perpetrator.” (61:13)

7. Practical Takeaways: Healing, Not Winning (59:36–63:08)

• Influence of Dr. Anna Lembke: Her accessible neuroscience and addiction steps parallel the NJS and reinforce the path to healing.
• Reframing Letting Go: “If I let this go, they win” is a trap; the true victory is breaking the pain loop and regaining agency over your life.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Revenge operates like an addiction. It lights up the same neural pathways as gambling, cocaine and high risk thrills, and the brain learns to crave it.” — John Miles (03:38)
• “I came within seconds of a mass shooting ... I really wanted this payback. ... But the price of getting what I wanted was more than I was willing to pay.” — James Kimmel Jr. (18:03)
• “You can find some sort of godspeak that will allow you to do anything you want to a person who you imagine or believe has wronged you. … This desire to want to inflict pain … seemed like, for me … an addiction.” — James Kimmel Jr. (31:24)
• “Every one of us has felt the pull of retaliation—some quietly, some of us loudly, some destructively, and some bravely choosing another path.” — John Miles (03:38)
• “Forgiveness … is a proven way of healing yourself. … When you forgive … the pain network shuts off.” — James Kimmel Jr. (51:16)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:13–03:16 | Framing the Episode: Why revenge matters; Kimmel’s credentials
• 07:12–18:03 | Kimmel’s Personal Revenge Story: Farm, bullying, near-miss with violence
• 24:07–31:24 | Law, Addiction, and Spiritual Crisis: Kimmel’s awakening and career change
• 37:17–47:29 | Neuroscience of Revenge: Brain circuits, parallels to substance addiction
• 47:29–50:27 | Social Media & Modern Revenge: Algorithmic amplification of grievance
• 51:16–58:49 | Tools for Healing: Forgiveness, Revenge Anonymous, Non-Justice System
• 59:36–63:08 | Forgiveness Reframed: Practical wisdom and benefits for listeners

Further Resources & Tools Mentioned

• RevengeAnonymous.org: 12-step program for “revenge addiction”
• MiracleCourt.com: Free app to try grievances in the “courtroom of the mind”
• JamesKimmelJunior.com: Central hub for Kimmel’s work and upcoming resources
• Anna Lembke & Dopamine Nation: Framework for understanding the addictive nature of revenge and tools for self-liberation

Summary & Actionable Insights

• Revenge is not a moral failing; it’s a brain-based loop. Understanding this reduces shame and opens the door to healing.
• Social systems, careers—even spiritual traditions—often reinforce cycles of revenge. Awareness is the first step to dismantling this.
• Forgiveness is a neurological reboot, not merely a moral act. It shuts off pain at the source and releases you from old loops.
• You don’t have to wait for an apology or reconciliation. Forgiveness is something you do for your own mental freedom.
• Digital tools and structured support are emerging. Apps and programs like Miracle Court and Revenge Anonymous provide practical paths forward for those struggling with cycles of resentment or violence.

"Choosing to break the cycle of revenge is not about letting someone else win—it's reclaiming your own life and peace." — Key lesson from James Kimmel Jr.

Next Steps

For anyone navigating old hurts, lingering grudges, or the addictive thrill of outrage, this episode invites consideration of both the ancient forces at work in your brain—and the possibility of relief. Check the resources above, reflect on Kimmel’s story, and remember: The revolution starts within.