Passion Struck with John R. Miles – Episode 652 Jennifer Tosti-Kharas & Christopher Wong Michaelson: On the Work Worth Doing Release Date: August 19, 2025

Episode Overview

In this deeply reflective episode, John R. Miles dives into the question at the heart of our working lives: Is your work worth it? Joined by guests Jennifer Tosti-Kharas (organizational psychologist) and Christopher Wong Michaelson (business ethicist and philosopher)—co-authors of Is Your Work Worth It?—the conversation crystallizes decades of research, personal stories, and practical wisdom on finding meaning in what we do.

The trio explores why traditional definitions of “success” often leave us empty, how crises spark purpose-driven self-reflection, the societal blind spots around undervalued labor, and how we can realign work with our values, legacy, and lives outside the office. The dialogue is rich with memorable stories, applicable frameworks, and challenging insights into why meaning—not money or status—must sit at the heart of any fulfilling career.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins: Why Meaning at Work Matters

• (06:14–11:59) Christopher and Jennifer each describe their personal pivots from high-powered consulting careers to academia, both catalyzed by 9/11.

  • Christopher: “A lot of people reconsidered what is the meaning of my work after 9/11? ...That’s when I started transitioning... really thinking about what is the meaning of work, which is pretty closely related to the question of what is the meaning of life?” (08:06)

  • Jennifer: “We saw this really echo in the wake of 9/11 and also in the wake of the COVID pandemic. We called it the Great Resignation because so many people decided they were unhappy with their jobs and ended up leaving.” (08:52)

• Both credit “sliding door” moments—unexpected events that force big questions about not just how we work, but why.

2. Defining Work: Purpose, Recognition, and Societal Blind Spots

• (19:53–22:36) The team confronts the undervaluing of unpaid labor (e.g., homemaking, caregiving):

  • Jennifer: “We define work as that which has a purpose... requires effort... and is recognized as work by society. ...When you clean someone else’s house... that’s work because you get paid for it. Same exact tasks, you do them for yourself, are not considered work.” (20:30)

• They interrogate how cultural definitions often leave out “housework” and how gender, pay, and recognition entwine.

3. Personal Stories: Reinvention, Loss, and Legacy

• (15:22–18:45) Christopher shares the dramatic tale of his grandfather, a general in the Nationalist Chinese army who lost everything after Communist China’s rise—career, country, identity—and had to start anew in Brazil.

  • “He went into business. He tried and failed many times and ultimately was supported for the rest of his life by his children. But in some ways, that might have been his most successful work.” (17:57)

• John offers his own family perspective on the value and societal diminishment of stay-at-home parenting roles.

4. The Paradox of Money, Meaning, and Burnout

• (27:58–32:36) A candid exchange about how high salary does not equate to fulfillment:

  • Jennifer: “They say money can’t buy happiness. Up to a certain point, happiness and income covary, but... above a certain threshold, more money does not necessarily equal more happiness. ...We often ask people to take pay cuts to do work that is the most meaningful in society. ...If my work is deeply meaningful to me, [I will] work harder, even though I stand to make no additional compensation for it. ...At what point are we asking unfair things of people?” (28:02)

• Quote: “Are we putting people at risk for burnout? ...Either you’re making a lot of money and you hate it, or you love [your work] but you’re getting burned out.” (31:11)

• Christopher: “That’s actually a global trend in affluent markets: people often are the least happiest when their earning power peaks.” (32:36)

5. Orientations to Work: Job, Career, or Calling

• (34:37–39:54) Jennifer breaks down the framework of “job,” “career,” and “calling” orientations, urging reflection on which fits and what tradeoffs each brings.

  • Job: “The primary reward... is extrinsic and usually financial. ...They were remembered as being really meaningful and noble when they served the end of helping a family or fueling that person’s passion with their loved ones outside work.” (36:02, 38:00)

  • Career: “More about advancement and recognition... within a peer group... the work is a means to an end.”

  • Calling: “The work is my life’s purpose; it’s meaningful... makes the world a better place.” (37:20)

  Quote: “There are lots of routes to a meaningful life. ...Whatever [orientation] you most identify with at a given time, just make sure: am I actually getting what I want out of that job?” (39:27)

6. Legacy: How Every Job Can Matter

• (39:54–44:18)

  • Christopher: “Legacy” is not reserved for high-status professions. Every role, especially so-called “essential workers” during the pandemic, contributes immensely.

  • “The most important goods in life can't be monetized. ...Some of the most important legacies are the ones we never put a dollar sign to.” (43:13)

7. Lightning Round: Myths, Tradeoffs, and Final Reflections

Quick Q&A (44:18–47:31):

• Jennifer: The most important factor in deciding if work is worth it? “What you get from your work compared to what you give. Is what I get worth what I give?” (44:36)

• Christopher: Passion vs. purpose? “Passion can deliver purpose... but not all purposeful work is something you have to be passionate about.” (45:08)

• Jennifer: Biggest myth about fulfilling jobs? “That it will take care of everything else... There are tradeoffs... It’s not a one-size-fits-all route to a perfect life.” (45:46)

• Christopher: Can you find worth in a job you don’t love? “Absolutely. ...A lot of jobs that are worthy are unlovable. ...Sometimes doing work that’s unlovable is OK as long as it’s leading you to where you want to go.” (46:29)

• Memorable Story: John recalls a sanitation worker who took pride in controlling his workday, demonstrating that autonomy and perspective can transform any job into meaningful work. (47:31)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jennifer (on unpaid labor):
  “Same exact tasks, you do them for yourself, are not considered work. ...Uncompensated domestic work is a heck of a lot of work. But we don’t treat it as such. We don’t recognize it as such in society.” (20:30)

• Christopher (on his grandfather):
  “...He lost a war, his home, his wealth, his sense of self-worth, and... his country and moved to Brazil to raise his surviving eight children... and starting over in a new country where he didn’t speak the language and had no prospects..." (16:02)

• Jennifer (on job/career/calling):
  “We in the book wanted to demystify that there are lots of roots to a meaningful life... Whatever one you most identify with at a given time, just make sure: am I actually getting what I want out of that job?” (39:27)

• Christopher (on legacy and essential workers):
  “...Why is the most important work often paid the least?... Some of the most important goods in life can't be monetized. And one of those things is the legacy of essential work.” (43:13)

• Christopher (on unlovable jobs):
  “A lot of jobs that are worthy are unlovable. ...Sometimes doing work that’s unlovable is OK as long as it’s leading you toward a path where you can have the work that you want and make the contribution you want to make.” (46:29)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 06:14 Introductions, personal stories of 9/11 and career change
• 15:22 Christopher’s grandfather’s journey and the meaning of lost work/identity
• 19:53 Defining work—societal attitudes to unpaid and undervalued labor
• 27:58 Money, happiness, and the paradox of meaningful-but-low-paid work
• 34:37 The “job/career/calling” framework and its implications
• 39:54 Legacy—impact, status, and stories of essential work
• 44:18 Lightning round: meaning, myths, tradeoffs, and advice
• 47:31 Real-world story of dignity in “unlovable” work
• 48:44 Where to find out more about the guests and their work

Tone & Language

The conversation is thoughtful, probing, and warmly collegial. John is open about his own experiences with misalignment and burnout, setting an introspective and honest tone. Both Jennifer and Christopher mix deep research with personal anecdotes, philosophical grounding, and a touch of humor. The episode challenges listeners to shift from seeking external validation to reclaiming an intentional, meaningful relationship with work—on their own terms.

Final Reflection

As John summarizes:

“Their work challenges us to pause and ask one of life’s most important and often avoided questions: is my work worth it?... In a culture that prizes productivity over presence and ambition over alignment, their message is a reminder to return to ourselves, to examine our beliefs, question our boundaries, and reconnect with the deeper motivations behind the careers we choose.” (48:57)

Recommended for: Anyone wrestling with burnout, questioning their career path, or seeking more meaning in their professional (and personal) life. This episode offers research-backed frameworks, moving stories, and timeless wisdom on defining work worth doing—whatever form it takes.

Resources:

• Book: Is Your Work Worth It? by Jennifer Tosti-Kharas & Christopher Wong Michaelson
• Christopher: christopherwongmichaelson.com
• Jennifer: Follow on LinkedIn (search “Tosti-Kharas”)
• More: passionstruck.com