Passion Struck with John R. Miles

Episode 708: Mark Murphy on 5 Ways to Build Teams That Actually Work

Release Date: December 26, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, John R. Miles is joined by Mark Murphy—New York Times best-selling author and founder of Leadership IQ—to dig deep into why most teams fail, the five critical team roles every high-performing group needs, and how to identify and fill these roles even when you can't hire new people. Through real-world examples from sports, business, and even the Beatles and the Sydney Opera House, Mark offers fresh, actionable insights into how leaders and teams can align talent with what's truly needed to win together.

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Why Traditional Teamwork Fails

• Mark Murphy describes his early frustrations with "team building" exercises, recalling a painful experience as part of a dysfunctional consulting joint venture.
  • "I'm thinking to myself, this would be so much easier if I could just do this myself. Like we are wasting unbelievable amounts of time... half the room isn't even really participating. There's mentally checked out. This is just a nightmare." (06:21, Mark Murphy)
• He highlights how businesses often stuff people into teams with the expectation of cohesion and consensus instead of letting people play to their strengths—a sharp contrast to sports or music ensembles.

2. The Michael Jordan Lesson: Roles Over Stars

• Mark recounts Michael Jordan’s famous retort—
  • “‘Hey, Michael, there’s no I in team.’ And Jordan looks back and goes, ‘Yeah, but there is in win.'” (00:53, Mark Murphy)
• The best teams aren’t made up of five “stars” but a mix tuned to complementary roles, just as you wouldn’t build a basketball team of only point guards or only Michaels.

3. The Five Critical Team Roles

Mark and John map these out (18:30):

• Director: Makes tough decisions when needed.
• Trailblazer: Offers bold, out-of-the-box innovation.
• Stabilizer: Keeps the project and team on track (“the spine”).
• Achiever: The consistent, reliable doer (often unsung, like Ringo in the Beatles).
• Harmonizer: Maintains group cohesion, resolving conflict, and smoothing egos.

“A team is a collection of talents, but it doesn’t mean it’s a collection of all the same talents.” (12:53, Mark Murphy)

4. Real-World Examples of Team Roles

The Beatles

John and Mark analyze the Beatles as a metaphor, assigning each member a primary team role:

• Lennon as Trailblazer
• Harrison as Harmonizer
• Ringo as Stabilizer
• McCartney as Achiever/Director (24:28, John and Mark)

Mark notes how conflict spiked when Lennon and McCartney both attempted to fill the director role. When true roles overlapped or were under-appreciated (like the Achiever or Stabilizer), dysfunction grew—which ultimately led to their breakup.

The Philadelphia Eagles

• Contrasts the 2011 “Dream Team” Eagles (stacked with stars but failed to gel) with the more recent Super Bowl-winning Eagles, whose players clearly understood and appreciated their roles (33:29, Mark Murphy).
• “Saquon [Barkley] realized that the linemen needed rest and that Hurts didn’t need to be injured... It really does show the self-sacrifice which leads to greatness.” (38:39, John Miles)

The Sydney Opera House

• The iconic but fraught Opera House project suffered from a brilliant Trailblazer (architect Jorn Utzon) but lacked a Stabilizer and a Harmonizer, leading to blown budgets and project chaos (58:25, Mark Murphy).
• “He never got to see the building finished because he got fired... If I were assembling this, my first question is, who is my stabilizer? Who’s going to keep this project on track?” (58:25, Mark Murphy)

Practical Insights & Tools

Assessing and Filling Team Roles

• Mark recommends a “meta-perception” exercise:
  • Have team members ask themselves, “Which of these roles do you think other people would say you play?” (39:47, Mark Murphy)
  • This often yields more accurate self-assessments and exposes critical gaps.
• If a gap exists and you can’t hire, use “role-switching”—temporarily assign someone capable (but perhaps not thrilled) to fill it, with clear, honest communication.
  • “You do have to be explicit… Because you will get people that get pissed. …If you're going to get a John to go along, it takes that kind of transparency and honesty to say, here's why we're doing this.” (46:15, Mark Murphy)

Adaptive Hierarchies & Trust

• John and Mark discuss Navy SEALs and astronauts as examples of adaptive hierarchies—trusting different roles and rotating leadership based on context and expertise, not always formal titles (48:10, John Miles; 50:34, Mark Murphy).
• “When you have somebody who is, they all have those roles… but they also trust each other to play that role, which means they don't need to micromanage.” (50:34, Mark Murphy)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Role Mix:

• “No sports team on earth or an orchestra... is made up of everyone playing the same instrument. Business is the only place where we stuff people into a room and say, ‘Now we got to get you cohesive and smush everybody together.’”
  — Mark Murphy (06:21)

On Acknowledging Unsung Roles:

• “There’s a role on the team we call the achiever... They’re the ones who... will be in charge of actually making the slides. That’s your achiever. Most of the time it gets underrecognized.”
  — Mark Murphy (12:53)

On Self-Assessment Exercise:

• “When we ask it in the form of ‘what would other people say is the role you most commonly play?’ it accesses a different part of the brain.... Humans are weirdly biased when it comes to evaluating ourselves, but weirdly good at evaluating how others see us.”
  — Mark Murphy (39:47)

On the Eagles’ True Teamwork:

• “The Dream Team Eagles, oh no, was, ‘look at all these stars we got. If I just put them out on the field, poof, that magically fixes the defense.’ No, no, does not.”
  — Mark Murphy (33:29)

On Adaptive Hierarchies:

• “Technically I may be the one in charge, but for this particular task, this person is better suited… They get to make the decision… It’s the star on the team passing off the last second shot because the other person is the better three-point shooter.”
  — Mark Murphy (50:34)

Timestamps of Important Segments

• 00:53 – Michael Jordan’s “there’s no ‘I’ in team / but there is in win” story
• 06:21–11:46 – Why most teamwork fails; playing to strengths versus forced cohesion
• 12:53–18:30 – Team roles in sports and recognizing unsung contributors
• 18:30 – The Five Critical Roles explained
• 24:28–25:54 – Mapping Beatles members to team roles (McCartney as Achiever and Director)
• 33:29–39:47 – Eagles NFL teams: role clarity versus star stacking
• 39:47–44:14 – How to assess your team’s roles; the meta-perception exercise
• 46:15 – The reality and value of role-switching (with John’s personal story)
• 48:10–56:01 – Adaptive hierarchies: SEALs, astronauts, and “eyes off” leadership
• 58:25–62:31 – The Sydney Opera House case study: what went wrong, what to do differently
• 62:54 – Where to find Mark Murphy (leadershipiq.com)

Tone & Takeaway

This episode is practical, candid, and full of vivid analogies. Mark Murphy offers actionable advice but speaks bluntly about real-world organizational dysfunctions, peppered with memorable sports and music stories. Both host and guest emphasize self-awareness, honesty, and clarity—plus a willingness to have hard conversations—as the foundations of great teamwork.

"The secret to a life of deep purpose, connection and impact is choosing to live like you matter." — John Miles (01:26)
"High performance isn’t about pressure or charisma. It’s about alignment." — John Miles (63:16)

Resources

• Mark Murphy: LeadershipIQ.com (books, articles, studies)
• Free companion workbooks: theignitedlife.net
• Book Reference: Team: The Five Critical Roles You Need to Build a Winning Team by Mark Murphy

Summary for Action

To build teams that truly work:

• Identify which of the five roles your team covers—and where the gaps are.
• Encourage honest self- and team-assessment.
• Appoint or temporarily assign roles as needed, communicating the why.
• Value unsung roles just as much as star performers.
• Trust your people to perform their roles—don’t micromanage.
• Remember: Alignment beats raw talent every time.

This playbook isn’t just for leaders—it’s for anyone striving to make their team more than the sum of its parts.