PASSION STRUCK with JOHN R. MILES
Episode 713: Mark Nepo on What It Means to Live with an Open Heart
Release Date: January 8, 2026

EPISODE OVERVIEW

In this heartfelt and profound conversation, John R. Miles is joined by poet, philosopher, and cancer survivor Mark Nepo to explore what it means to live with an open heart. The episode launches "The Meaning Makers" series, focusing on how individuals can build meaning and presence in life after releasing what no longer serves them. Nepo shares deep wisdom on acceptance, presence, and the creative act of living, offering practical methods for re-immersing oneself in life, especially in a world marked by division and disconnection.

KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. Acceptance and Surrender—not Resignation

• Acceptance ≠ Resignation:
  Nepo reframes acceptance, explaining it’s not about giving up, but “cooperating with truth.”

  “Acceptance comes out of surrender. And I think surrender, I've learned, is cooperating with truth. So instead of fighting life, we stay in relationship with it, we work with it.” (Mark Nepo, 11:20)

• Daoist Metaphor:
  Nepo draws on Taoist philosophy: Life is a river; each soul is a fish seeking its natural current. Acceptance is about finding and joining that current, not resisting it.

2. The Heart as Our Strongest Muscle

• Innate Goodness vs. Cynicism:
  Nepo discusses the long-standing human debate: Some believe humans need constraints due to inherent self-interest, while others (including Nepo) believe people are innately good but often blocked by wounds or trauma.
• Connection and Reverence:
  With social disconnection and digital insulation, direct contact with life—and thus reverence for it—is diminishing. Nepo posits that violence and self-harm are, in dark ways, desperate attempts for connection.

  "The heart is, I believe, our strongest muscle, our strongest instrument... The word trust literally means to follow the heart." (13:24)

• Course-correcting the Heart:
  Self-awareness is continuous: "We're always course correcting. Oh, today I was too closed. Oh, today I gave myself away." (16:24)

3. Loneliness, Compassion, and Ripples of Presence

• Feeling Invisible:
  John Miles frames modern loneliness as people feeling “invisible in their own life.” Nepo emphasizes the need for direct engagement, starting with the smallest acts.

  “When I listen to you totally in your pain or whatever you're going through, then I am casting a stitch in the fabric of humanity.” (Mark Nepo, 20:39)

• "Expand Our Sense of Solitude":
  Even sitting in a café among strangers can shift internal solitude into a shared energy.

4. Immersion: Knowing When We're Alive or Holding Back

• A Simple Barometer:
  Nepo offers a practical question:

  “Is what I'm involved in life giving and heartening, or is it life draining and disheartening?” (Mark Nepo, 26:21)

• Allowing for Rest:
  Not every day will be transcendent. Sometimes, lack of immersion signals a need for rest, not more effort.

5. Artistry in Living—Immersion Over Excellence

• “Live a Making”:
  Nepo recounts telling his parents,

  "I'm going to live a making,” (30:43)
  as opposed to “make a living”, capturing his ethos of full creative immersion in daily life.

• Excellence Follows Immersion:

  "Excellence is a byproduct of immersion. If we just strive for excellence, we may not be immersed." (35:52)

• Creativity is Life’s Work of Art:
  Our life—how we show up, relate, care—is itself the work of art.

6. Meaning, Memory, and the Fifth Season

• Dreams & Memory as Kindling:
  In later life, the function of dreams shifts and so does memory.

  “Often, one of the liabilities of dreaming in our world is we defer our better self to the future... But what we do is when we dream, we actually put forward some of our potential so we can see it, and then ask: How can we bring it alive now?” (Mark Nepo, 46:58)

• Constructive vs. Nostalgic Memory:

  “Nostalgia entraps us... But the helpful use of memory is, I go back... to touch what was alive then and trace it because that stream of aliveness is always there.” (48:36)

7. Metaphors for Aging and Presence

The Meteor Metaphor

• As we age, our “outer life flakes off and we become more and more light till the spirit leaves the body.” (49:42)
• Suffering as Erosion:
  Challenges don't define us; they let our true light shine brighter.

8. Saying Yes to Life (“Broken Hallelujah”)

• Leaning In:

  “Saying yes to life... means leaning in when pain and worry and fear push us away. It means loving again after we've been burned by love.” (53:45)

• Affirming Matter and Meaning:
  Even amidst pain, act with wholeheartedness—not blind obedience, but an embrace of paradox and wholeness.

9. Shifting Horizons: Depth and Perspective

• Expansion as Remedy to Pain:

  "Stop being a glass, become a lake." (Story at 61:41)
  Meaning: Enlarge your sense of perspective—pain and fear will not disappear, but their relative weight diminishes as we immerse ourselves in broader connection.

• Both/And Thinking:
  Eastern thought encourages living in paradox, holding both the surface and the depths, the pain and the possibility.

10. The Final Invitation: Trust Your Heart & Welcome Obstacles

• Obstacles as Teachers:

  “Not everything that's in the way is a problem or a deficiency, but a teacher... What's in the way is the way and that's how our light grows brighter and how our heart shows up for each other.” (Mark Nepo, 67:13)

NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• On presence and grief:

  “By being authentic and holding nothing back and giving my all not to change the world, but to the detail of the moment that opens to me, I can trip into the larger stream of the mystery of life.” (Mark Nepo, 22:20)

• On creative living:

  "The art is in living, not in what we produce." (Mark Nepo, 33:48)

• On rituals and spiritual housecleaning:

  “We each need our own form of cleaning out the pathway... between source and how we live in the world.” (Mark Nepo, 43:27)

• On the utility of obstacles:

  “We've been mistaught to think we're entitled to an obstacle-free existence... they're not demons. They're teachers.” (Mark Nepo, 67:32)

IMPORTANT SEGMENTS & TIMESTAMPS

• [10:05] – Nepo describes the real meaning of acceptance after cancer and the metaphor of “swimming with the current.”
• [13:09] – Discussion of the heart’s power and innate human goodness.
• [20:39] – Presence and compassion: “Casting a stitch in the fabric of humanity.”
• [26:16] – The immersion barometer: distinguishing life-giving from life-draining moments.
• [30:37] – “I’m going to live a making”: Mark’s creative philosophy emerges.
• [46:44] – Using dreams and memory to remain present and alive, especially in later life.
• [49:42] – Meteor metaphor: flaking off what’s nonessential, becoming light.
• [53:45] – “Saying yes to life” and the “broken hallelujah”—embracing paradox.
• [61:41] – Story: “Stop being a glass, become a lake”—expanding one’s sense of self to diminish pain.
• [67:13] – Final insight: “Obstacles are teachers. What’s in the way is the way.”

CONCLUSION & TAKEAWAYS

The episode is a call to wholehearted presence. Mark Nepo and John Miles illuminate that to live with an open heart is to trust life, embrace authentic immersion, turn obstacles into teachers, and engage compassion in the smallest moments. Our light grows brightest not by avoiding suffering but by meeting life fully and helping others do the same—even in the simplest acts.

As Nepo advises, the journey is continual:

"Trust our heart... What's in the way is the way and that's how our light grows brighter and how our heart shows up for each other." (67:13)

Listener Invitation:
Pause for sixty seconds. Immerse yourself in what is directly before you—repairing the fabric of your life, one attentive act at a time.

For deeper reflection:

• How can you clear your own acequia—the pathway between your inner life and outer living?
• Are you a glass or a lake with your suffering?
• What will you say yes to, today?