Passion Struck with John R. Miles: Michael Morris on Why We Divide and How to Reconnect

Episode Release Date: June 24, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 628 of Passion Struck, host John R. Miles engages in a profound conversation with Dr. Michael Morse, the Shaft Kinshang Professor of Leadership at Columbia Business School and author of the groundbreaking book, Tribal: How the Culture Instincts that Divide Us Can Help Bring Us Together. This episode delves deep into the intricate dynamics of tribalism, exploring its roots, impacts, and potential as a force for unity rather than division.

Understanding Tribalism: Beyond the Negative Connotations

Dr. Michael Morse challenges the conventional perception of tribalism as inherently toxic and divisive. He emphasizes that tribal instincts are essential to human progress and cooperation.

“Tribalism is as human as breathing. Tribalism is the defining characteristic of our species.”
(05:08)

Morse contends that every generation perceives societal decline, echoing historical sentiments like those of Socrates, who lamented the youth of Athens. He argues against the fatalistic view that our tribal nature will lead to civilization's downfall, advocating instead for a nuanced understanding of tribal instincts.

The Three Core Instincts Driving Human Behavior

Central to Morse's thesis are the three psychological instincts he identifies as fundamental to tribalism:

1. Peer Instinct: This drives us to conform to social norms and seek harmony within our environments.

   “Conformity is the peer instinct.”
   (20:03)

2. Hero Instinct: This compels us to emulate respected figures and aspire to higher ideals.

   “Status seeking is largely what I call the hero instinct.”
   (20:03)

3. Ancestor Instinct: This fosters a deep connection to traditions and the preservation of cultural heritage.

   “Sentimentality and nostalgia is what I call the ancestor instinct.”
   (20:03)

These instincts, Morse explains, are not mere relics of our Stone Age evolution but are actively shaping behaviors and cultures in contemporary settings.

Tribal Instincts in the Workplace: A Case Study

John shares his personal experiences from his executive roles at Dell and Lowe's, highlighting how organizational culture profoundly affects employee engagement and satisfaction.

At Lowe's, a culture of accessibility and community prevailed. Senior executives, including the CEO, frequently interacted with employees, fostering a sense of belonging and pride.

“It made us all feel like these aloof leaders were accessible.”
(33:02)

Conversely, Dell exhibited a more disengaged culture as it shifted from a flat organization to a more hierarchical structure. This change alienated long-term employees who clung to established traditions, making it challenging for new ideas to take root.

“It was becoming very difficult for new people to influence new ideas.”
(33:48)

Morse adds that physical environments play a crucial role in shaping and reinforcing organizational culture through symbols, rituals, and everyday interactions.

Tipping Points and Cultural Change

Drawing from Malcolm Gladwell's concept of tipping points, Morse explores how cultural changes can lead to significant societal shifts. He explains that tipping points occur when a critical mass of people adopt a new behavior or belief, often influenced by their instincts to conform or seek status.

“The tipping point refers to when I'm affected by what my peers are doing and I change my practice.”
(15:48)

He contrasts bottom-up grassroots movements with top-down institutional changes, illustrating how legitimacy and trust are pivotal for the success of cultural transformations.

Harnessing Tribal Instincts for Belonging and Mattering

Addressing the rising issues of loneliness and disconnection, Morse discusses how understanding and leveraging tribal instincts can foster deeper connections and a sense of mattering within communities.

“We are motivated to fulfill our role within a larger community or tradition.”
(45:20)

He distinguishes between hedonistic happiness, which focuses on joy and pleasure, and eudaimonic happiness, which derives from meaningful engagement and fulfilling societal roles. Emphasizing the latter can lead to lasting well-being and a stronger sense of purpose.

Impact of Social Media on Tribal Division

Morse critically examines the role of social media in exacerbating tribal divisions. He asserts that while technology itself is neutral, our tribal psychology drives us to seek out platforms that reinforce our existing beliefs, leading to echo chambers and heightened polarization.

“We've created this sort of agreement machine that has a negative impact on how well informed we are.”
(57:01)

He suggests that regulating social media more effectively could mitigate its detrimental effects, advocating for platforms to take greater responsibility in managing information flow and reducing misinformation.

Actionable Steps to Bridge Tribal Divides

To cultivate openness and collaboration across tribal lines, Morse offers practical advice:

1. Diversify Your Environment: Immerse yourself in communities and settings that differ from your usual social circles to break out of echo chambers.

   “Going to different places than they usually go... immerse yourself in communities other than your own.”
   (62:30)

2. Engage in Shared Passions: Participate in activities that transcend political or cultural divides, fostering connections based on common interests rather than ideological alignment.

3. Promote Bottom-Up Initiatives: Encourage grassroots movements that build trust and understanding from the ground up, rather than imposing top-down changes that may face resistance.

Rapid Round: Quick Insights from Dr. Michael Morse

In a concise Q&A segment, Morse offers further clarity on tribalism:

• One Misunderstanding About Tribalism:

  “It would be that we should just despair because we have a tribal nature that we can't control that is inevitably going to lead to the destruction of civilization.”
  (61:56)

• Immediate Action for Openness and Collaboration:

  “Going to different places than they usually go... immerse yourself in communities other than your own.”
  (62:30)

• Edict for a New World on Mars:

  “I would be tempted to come back from Mars and tell everyone on Earth that the Martians are soon going to invade Earth because it might bring together the people on Earth.”
  (63:25)

Conclusion

Dr. Michael Morse's insights in this episode of Passion Struck illuminate the complex nature of tribal instincts and their profound impact on both individual well-being and societal cohesion. By reframing tribalism from a source of division to a potential avenue for unity, Morse provides listeners with a fresh perspective on fostering meaningful connections and intentional living.

John R. Miles underscores the importance of understanding these instincts to lead effectively, create lasting cultural change, and nurture a sense of belonging and purpose in an increasingly fragmented world.

For those eager to delve deeper into these concepts, Dr. Morse's book, Tribal, is highly recommended. Listeners can connect with Michael and explore his work further at tribalbook.org and michaelwmorris.com.

Notable Quotes

• “Tribalism is as human as breathing. Tribalism is the defining characteristic of our species.”
  (05:08)

• “Conformity is the peer instinct.”
  (20:03)

• “We are motivated to fulfill our role within a larger community or tradition.”
  (45:20)

• “We've created this sort of agreement machine that has a negative impact on how well informed we are.”
  (57:01)

• “It would be that we should just despair because we have a tribal nature that we can't control that is inevitably going to lead to the destruction of civilization.”
  (61:56)

Further Engagement

If this episode resonated with you, consider bookmarking Passion Struck on your favorite podcast platform and leave a five-star review to support the show. Stay tuned for upcoming episodes where John R. Miles continues to explore the depths of intentional living, meaningful connections, and radical self-transformation with world-renowned experts and thought leaders.

Connect with Michael Morris:

• Website for Tribal: tribalbook.org
• Personal Website: michaelwmorris.com

Passion Struck is dedicated to moving beyond mere productivity, delving into the mental, emotional, and energetic foundations of a meaningful life. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred platform to ignite change from the inside out.